Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2019

JB: Can I get you to start off by just by introducing yourself? What's your name and your role in this specific case?

MA: I just thought that, that it's very easy in matters like this to have everyone talking about one viewpoint and not another viewpoint. I mean I think that you know the government's viewpoint is very clear. I think it's errant, and I think it's not the whole picture. But it's very clear that this is essentially you know a sex cult, and that there's sex trafficking. And my concern in matters like this is that there is another viewpoint…...

JB: I’m Josh Bloch. This is “Escaping NXIVM” from “CBC Podcasts Uncover.”

JB: Chapter 6: “The Defence”

JB: Since the start of this investigation, my questions for Keith have been piling up. I’ve wanted to hear his perspective on all kinds of things. What does he think of the allegation that he’s the head of a cult? Was he running DOS, or wasn’t he? What was DOS for? And why did membership involve branding his initials on the women who joined?

The problem was reaching him… or anyone from his inner circle.

JB: My producer, Anita tried to contact Keith.

JB: The voicemail on his personal cell phone didn’t take messages. Emails were never answered.

JB: She tried Allison Mack.

JB: Nancy and Lauren Salzman…

NS: If you need to get a hold of me in a hurry, the best way is to send a text...

JB: She left voicemails, sent emails, texts, and even sent a courier.

JB: We went to Clifton Park, where Keith and his clan lived. Most of them weren’t there, or wouldn’t talk to us.

ESP EMPLOYEE: Who are you?

[Sound: A montage of newscasts]

[Sound: A phone connecting]

SE: [SINGING] It’s a beautiful day in the neighbourhood [LAUGHING], a beautiful day in to be a neighbour. Won’t you be my…

SE: I did. I could have slept until eight, and I woke up at six like ‘boop’ out of bed!

SE: Got a text message that says Nancy’s house in Knox Woods is being raided as we speak. Right now the FBI are raiding Nancy Salzman’s home. [Sarah screams in the background. Cheering in the background]

[Sound: Phone ringing]

SE: It is unravelling so fucking fast.

REPOPTER: Four more people have been arrested in the alleged sex cult, NXIVM — including an heiress to the Seagram’s liqour fortune...

JB: It really feels like this has been taken up to, taken up another level.

SE: It’s such a weird mixture of feelings, Josh. It’s like… you know vindication and sadness all rolled into one. Do I feel badly for her? Yeah. Do I think she deserves it? Yeah.

JB: Along with Keith and Allison Mack, they’re all accused of racketeering conspiracy. They all plead not guilty.

SE: It’s huge!!

[Sound: A phone dialing]

JB: But then, Anita gets through to Keith’s lawyer, Marc Agnifilo.

ANITA: mhhm hmmm.

ANITA: Hmmm. Hmmm. Okay. Alright.

JB: He speaks to me at the beginning of August from our studio in Manhattan.

[Theme Music]

MA: I saw Keith on Friday. I'll probably see him again later today. I see him about four times a week. He's in a maximum security facility in Brooklyn called the Metropolitan Detention Center, which is essentially a pre-trial facility for the most part. It's where people wait until they have their trial. But these pre-trial facilities are all maximum security facilities, and that's what this prison is. So it's very harsh detention conditions. He doesn't go outside. And I think it's important for him to just kind of keep his mind sharp, and also for me as his lawyer to learn as much about the case as I can. I saw him Friday, and I'm seeing again this afternoon.

JB: And how would you describe his state of mind right now?

JB: Well, he, in fact, claims to be one of the smartest men in the world. I wondered is that... did you find that?

AM: Yeah, it's a good question. I mean I think especially with Keith, Keith would walk 15 miles... 15 to 20 miles a day when he was living in Clifton Park you know in the woods through the you know down hiking trails and on the streets. And so it's very different. One of the things that's sort of amazing is he's found a way to continue to walk 15 to 20 miles a day. And what he's done is he's sort of paced out a circle. And by using geometry, I'm not saying this makes him the smartest man in the world, but he does know how to do geometry. He was able to determine the circumference of the circle. And he's able to walk 15 or 20 miles a day around a fairly small circle. So yeah, life has changed. You know once he was walking through the woods and on hiking paths and in these beautiful you know natural environments. And now he's walking literally in a circle in a maximum security facility.

MA: That is what the FBI says.

MA: I don't think that's true. And I don't think that that will be proven true at a trial. I think the government's position is a tricky one. And I'll tell you why. You know because everyone here is not only an adult. They're well-to-do adults. They're adults that for the most part are educated. They're smart. They have financial opportunity. They're successful economically, and they have choices. You know these are not poor put upon people who are desperate for a better life and will make choices against their self-interest. These are actresses and models and successful people and business people. People who have successful businesses and have aspirations. And these are choices. You know I open adult knowing voluntary choices that these people are making. And for the government to just sort of say well, you know they're brainwashed you know they're effectively brainwashed. That's really what the Government's say is that all of these successful adults have essentially been brainwashed, and they're not acting in their own true self-interest. And I just don't think I don't think there's such thing as brainwashing. I think to the extent that you know we once thought there might be brainwashing it went out with the Cold War you know it's like a relic of the ‘70s. I mean it just doesn't exist.

MA: Man, you're going to have to prove that to me because I don't see it. What I do see is I see a lot of people who broke away from this group, who were once very attached to this group, who once leaders in this group, who were once teaching the stuff that they're now saying they were manipulated by. And now they're angry. I think part of what the evidence is going to show is some of these people who broke away from NXIVM wanted to start a version of it themselves. You know they hacked into the NXIVM computers. They tried to take the client data. They tried to take other information you know because they wanted to go off and do this alone. They didn't want you know Keith to to to be the head of it. They want it to be the head of it. And I think that's going to be a fascinating part of the trial.

MA: So, Keith, is I guess like the philosophical head. He's not really a business person. He doesn't have a business mind. He doesn't have business acumen. You know he's much more... this is going to sound sort of like pedantic, but he's much more of like a philosopher. You know he's a thinker. He's a big thinker. And so he gives intellectual, and I guess philosophical content to the program. But you know he doesn't handle the money. He doesn't really do the enrolling. So that's funny, I see this myself quite frankly. I’ll sit down with Keith, and I'll have a whole list of things I want to talk to him about. And they’re very practical things — things that I really need done. And Keith will be off on something. You know he wants to know why certain things are being done in the case? And in a sense, it's really he doesn't have an appreciation for the fact that his lawyers there to talk about these immediate practical sort of pedantic things. He's like well you know why do prosecutors do this? Is the system really better or worse because it does this instead of this? And I'm like Keith. You realize we're burning time talking about these theoretical things when I have something immediate and practical I want to discuss with you? And he doesn't care, you know? That's the level he is on. You know he's very sort of above the weeds.

MA: Right. Right.

JB: And I've spoken with her a lot over the past few months. And she's told me about her feeling of being deceived when she found out that this secret women's group that she she had joined cult dos. She found out she says it was actually run by Keith Raniere. And she also found out, she says, that that Keith Raniere’s initials were on her body. That she had gotten a brand. She was told it was going to be something else. And then sees... discovers his initials. I guess I want to ask you, first of all, are those Keith Raniere’s initials on Sarah's body?

JB: Was Keith aware? I mean is that intentional?

JB: In court filings, the FBI included alleged electronic communications between Keith Raniere and a DOS slave. And Keith describes himself as a grandmaster in a secret growing organization where women want to be branded with his monogram. What do you make of the FBI’s evidence that they've released so far about this electronic communication?

JB: One of the requirements of women to join DOS was to hand over a collateral — nude photos, videos, false confessions. How much of that collateral did Keith see, or how much of it went to Keith?

MA: I don't think it's extortion. And, first of all, I think it's important to know. I mean no collateral was ever released — ever. Not one time. You know women women left DOS. Women didn't keep the DOS secrets. And no collateral was ever released. And the government doesn't allege otherwise. And I don't think any member of DOS alleges otherwise. To your point of whether it's problematic. You know it's a little edgy. I mean I will, I will give you that, you know? And that's true. It's a little edgy, but I think it's there for a reason. The women of DOS wanted that to be part of the equation. And they saw meaning in that. And I think that they have the right to see meaning that, you know? And if it was a way of cementing the commitment I'm in DOS. I'm in DOS for life. It's a... DOS views this is a lifetime commitment. I am, I am your sisters for life. That is my commitment, and I'm backing it up with collateral that could be released if I stop being your sisters for life, or if I divulge the secrets of DOS. It's a little edgy, but you know that's, that's what they wanted.

MA: So DOS was created... so there are eight original women in DOS, who I'm not going to name on the air. DOS was created because one of those women was engaging in self-harm; cutting herself. And I think this person had a conversation with Keith where Keith said you have to make me a commitment that you're never going to do that again because I'm afraid you could cut yourself too deeply and something horrible will happen. And I think the response was I can't make that commitment to you because you're not sufficiently important to me that I'll make this commitment to you. And I think the idea was well, what is there out there that sufficiently important to you that you would make this commitment to that thing or that person? And I think DOS formed around that event. And I think through the years, it's been very attractive to women — young women — who I think have some measure of struggle. You know women who struggle, struggle with happiness, struggle with content in their life. You know they're I mean the women that I've met in DOS who've talked to me about DOS have been very serious people. They've been very strong people. And they've been people who I think are having some measure of struggle internally. And for whatever reason, DOS spoke to them.

MA: Absolutely 100 per cent false. I mean Keith has a unique sex life. He has had multiple partners his entire life. They know about each other, and they're ok with it. You know I think most of the time. Not all the time. Most of the time. But he makes no bones about it. You know this is who he is. And women choose to be intimate with Keith or not with that knowledge. And he doesn't need DOS to have sex with women. I think there was no shortage of women in the Clifton Park area who were willing to you know be intimate with Keith Raniere. So it's just false. I think it's it's just you know a weird sense of self-importance I think that some of these women are putting on DOS and say oh, I was in this because Keith wanted to have sex with me. You know listen I've seen text messages. I've seen e-mails. You know Keith doesn't need to create an organization for these women to want to be close to him. Trust me.

MA: No, not that I know of. Not that I've seen. I mean I think you know a lot of these women knew Keith and you know I think some of these women had relationships with Keith you know some — a very small percentage. If there are 150 women in DOS, we're talking about a handful — you know five or six. So you know the government's contending that this is a sex cult where all of the women were going to have sex with Keith. You know I mean we're probably somewhere around 2 per cent or 3 per cent of everybody in DOS who had any kind of intimate relationship with Keith.

MA: So I haven't heard about it from Keith, but what I've heard from some other people is that some of the women who were in DOS felt that they had issues with intimacy during sex. They didn't have issues with sex, but there was not the element of intimacy in the sex that they were having. I've heard this from two different people. And that they felt that they could be intimate with Keith. Now ironically, neither of these people had sex with Keith. No, because you can get intimacy from sex that you could get intimacy without having sex. And the issue for them was intimacy, not sex. To the extent that some of these women though said they had issues with intimacy. That is what Keith sort of does. You know Keith is about that. Keith is about human connection. You know Keith is about you know I mean I say jokingly, but it's only half a joke. You know this is more of a cuddle cult than it is a sex cult. You know Keith would go on long walks with these women. He'd hold hands with these women. He would lay down in a bed, and you know she would put her hand on Keith’s heart and he would put his hand on her heart. And that is the totality of the conduct. You know so how this got transformed into a sex cult. I'll never know.

MA: Yes, I'm saying they're lying. If they're saying that they were coerced to have sex with Keith, I'm saying that they’re lying.

MA: They they didn't have sex or not have sex with Keith because of the collateral. We have text messages. I mean I know I know you're talking about. We have text messages. It's preposterous. You know these women wanted to be with Keith. There's no talk in the text message about collateral. Qe have pages and pages and pages of text messages.

MA: They basically are two people in a very you know close, consensual, open relationship. I mean it's, it's the way a boyfriend and a girlfriend would talk if they had a good relationship and were dating for six months, you know? It's just like that.

MA: Yeah. Oh yeah.

MA: I don't anymore. I mean I think everything sort of like a little slower and a little sort of frozen. But the people that I've spoken to in DOS said no, I'm in DOS for my life. It’s a lifetime commitment that I take very seriously. And I think the reason the lifetime commitment is important is the idea that if you need to speak to one of your DOS sisters, they are there. They have not backed out. You can count on them forever. And in a time when I think people are worried about forever, you know things change... everything changes. We live in a society that changes rapidly. I think the forever concept really is important. That is money in the bank to you, and that goes a long way. And I think what the women are in DOS grieving is that the government has come in and is trying to... I mean a force no less powerful than the United States Department of Justice is coming in and trying to tear apart those friendships.

MA: A great... the government wants to give Keith Raniere life in prison — life in prison. They want life. That's what they think a fair resolution of this case would be. That he would get life in prison for this. And so for Keith, everything. I mean his very livelihood — his life — is at stake.

MA: I've never met her, so I'm not going to use labels. I think heroes you know there aren't that many heroes in the world that we can point to. I think it's great if she considers herself one. But I think at the end of the day, she was a very important member of this organization. She was a very important member of DOS. She was an enthusiastic member of DOS. Many, many people will say that. And her life went in a different direction, and I wish her well in her new life. I mean people you know. So the betrayal of that sort of like Sarah describes is described by people of Sarah. You know she was my friend. We were close. We shared these things. You know we did all these things together. We had these deep conversations together. How dare she say these things now? It's not true. And she's saying them to be hurtful. And she was my friend. You know so it kind of goes both ways for whatever that's worth.

(crosstalk)

MA: A hundred Per cent.

MA: Because from their perception, she's intentionally saying false things to hurt them. That they believe she knows is false.

MA: They have theories, yeah. But hey’re personal that has to do with her marriage that I'm not going to get into because it's not my place. Very private personal perceptions. I mean these are people who know her and know Nippy I mean and you know know them both. And you know the way that relationship's demise people have perceptions as to what happened. And people have perceptions about Sarah and her husband.

MA: If she testifies, yeah. And I expect she will.

MA: Sure, there's a defence fund. I've said this in court. It's an irrevocable trust, and the trust is paying. Can't see my quotation marks, “reasonable defense expenses.”

MA: There’s a trustee who's a lawyer in Manhattan. And I don't have visibility. Listen, I mean if you put a gun to my head and said who do I think has put a lot of the money into the trust? You know we all know the answer might be. But do I know? I have no visibility into that whatsoever.

JB: Mark, thank you so much.

MA: Sure. Thank you.

MA: All right. Bye-bye.

[pause]

SE: I didn't dupe anybody. I didn't trick anyone.

JB: what about the money that you made through the organization? Do you feel like you're entitled to keep that money?

SE: Had I been in one more bit angry. I may have pushed her down the stairs. And it was so scary.

SARAH: You're totally allowed to talk about your experience.

JB: Did you think it was a cult when she was in it?

JB: “Escaping Nxivm” is produced & written by Kathleen Goldhar, Anita Elash, me, Josh Bloch, and Mieke Anderson, who also is also our audio producer. Heather Evans is our senior producer. And Arif Noorani is the executive producer. If you want to discuss this story with others, and get the latest updates become part of our online communities by joining the “Uncover: Escaping NXIVM” Facebook group, or following us on Twitter: @uncoverCBC. Subscribe to the series wherever you get your podcasts. We’re at: www.cbc.ca/uncover.

TRANSCRIPT: Uncover: Escaping NXIVM - Season 1, EP 6

Social Sharing