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The Current Transcript for January 25, 2023

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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I showed up, and she said, I was hoping for the nurse. I'm waiting for the nurse. You can go, right? You know, she said. No, no, I am the nurse. [laughing]

MATT GALLOWAY: It was a busy night at the hospital in St John's, Newfoundland. Nothing unusual about that. What was unusual, though, was the staffing in one particular ward. All the nurses were men. The majority of nurses in Canada are women. And at a time when many are fleeing the profession, there is a push to encourage a broader range of people into the field. In 30 minutes, tackling the gender stigma around nursing in Canada. Also this morning.

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After an initial shock and then kind of laughing at the ridiculousness of me telling them I've walked here from Africa, there's a sense of wonder and curiosity that kind of morphs very quickly into hospitality.

MG: For 10 years, Paul Salopek has been walking. He started in Ethiopia. He's headed to the tip of South America, a 35,000 kilometre journey to tell the story of human migration and the benefits of slowing down in a hectic world. In an hour, Paul joins us from China to talk about walking through the pandemic and how a decade of putting one foot in front of the other has changed him. We begin, though, in Ukraine with the spectre of corruption. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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UKRAINE CORRUPTION

Guests: Veronika Melkozerova, Tymofiy Mylovanov

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[foreign speech]

MG: That's Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy announcing changes to some of his government's key posts. As the war in Ukraine approaches the one year mark, a growing corruption scandal is creating unrest within that country's leadership. New allegations suggest some senior officials have been profiteering off the war. Yesterday, the deputy Defence minister resigned amid the controversy. Several other top officials have also stepped down or been dismissed. And there are calls for the Defence Minister to be removed from his post as well. Veronika Melkozerova is a reporter for Politico Europe. Veronika, hello.

VERONIKA MELKOZEROVA: Hello.

MG: You have referred to this in writing as war profiteering. Let's start with the Deputy Defence Minister. What is he being accused of?

VERONIKA MELKOZEROVA: He himself is not being accused of anything personally. He was just a man responsible for logistical support of the army, including the food catering services. So after defence minister tried to manipulate the findings of the journalists, blaming journalists of misrepresenting information, he decided to resign in order to ease the tensions. However, this scandal has been still going on as our government and Parliament, they reacted very quickly on it. And now they are investigating this case and thinking of reforming the purchase of supplies for the army like not weapons, because it's not about weapons, it's about food, logistical support. So the part that Ukraine is responsible for.

MG: And the suggestion was that the food prices were much higher than they would be on the open market. Is that correct? And this was food for soldiers.

VERONIKA MELKOZEROVA: Yes. The journalist who broke the story, he found out that the prices were inflated like two or three times in this one contract.

MG: There are, as I mentioned, many other officials who have been caught up in this. Who else is being accused of wrongdoing?

VERONIKA MELKOZEROVA: So the person in the Ministry of Defence who used to sign all the procurement contracts, he also resigned together with the Deputy Defence Minister. Our watchdogs and activists are also blaming Oleksii Reznikov who is the Defence Minister, that he also knew about this because he tried to protect his contract at first by publishing a very dubious statement on Facebook. For example, it had the details like Defence Ministry was buying eggs in kilos, not a piece. So this has also become a meme already, the kilo of eggs.

MG: And then there are allegations of the purchase of generators, the use of vehicles that were donated for humanitarian reasons. How prominent are the officials who have been caught up in this corruption scandal?

VERONIKA MELKOZEROVA: The generators one was the Deputy Infrastructure Minister, Lozinsky. He immediately got fired, although he's not found guilty by the court. So cabinet ministers fired him the same day he got caught accepting the bribe, as our national anti-corruption bureau says. And the second one is a bit like more high profile because a Ukrainian journalist caught Kyrylo Tymoshenko, who was the deputy head of the president's office using the cars that were donated to Ukraine to use them on the front lines for evacuation purposes and others. And when he was caught, Tymoshenko, of course, sent the car where it should have been, and said that he thought that he also could use it because he frequently travels to front lines. However, this was seen as a very damaging corruption scandal also by Ukrainians. So after numerous calls to do something with this, he was not dismissed, not fired. He signed for resignation. And Zelenskyy just approved the resignation letter.

MG: What do you make of the fact that it was Ukrainian journalists who broke this at a time in the war when Ukrainian journalists have been very prominent in supporting the war effort and supporting what the government has done? What do you make of the fact that it's Ukrainian journalists themselves that have broken this story?

VERONIKA MELKOZEROVA: First, I'm also a Ukrainian journalist and a Ukrainian citizen. So we all face the dilemma. That's whether you should or should not criticize the government during the war. But at the same time, we all know that we are not Russia. And we gave them like six months, not trying to like dig into what they're about. So some of them lost limits. Not all of them, but some of them. And that's why Ukrainian journalists decided to go back to the job again. And that worked because our president reacted very quickly. And it was met by the journalist community as a great sign, because for example, we are trying to show the world that yes, we have war, but we are fighting also for European future, for democracy. And we do have freedom of speech. And unlike in Russia, authorities come not to the journalist who uncovered corruption, but to the corrupt officials who did the corruption uncovered by the journalists. So I guess that this scandals not only like damage our reputation, unfortunately, and are pretty painful for society, but they also show that Ukraine is changing for better even during war.

MG: What do you think is at stake here for Ukraine? The timing of this is uncomfortable because the president is pleading on an almost daily basis for international aid. And so as this scandal unfolds, as you say, it's painful for Ukraine. What's at stake here?

VERONIKA MELKOZEROVA: At stake is our future, because corruption weakens Ukraine during the vicious aggression. And we should be strong. We should to show the world that we fight on our own. We just don't ask for help like in weapons, we do ourselves a lot of work. Not only sacrificing lives, but changing the country, basically. And in many ways, the reforms skyrocketed in comparison to what we used to have before, because if you compare Ukraine to stable democracies, yeah, we're still very far from it. But if you compare Ukraine to the neighbours like Russia and Belarus, we’ve made a lot of progress. And I think that everything is at stake. We should work to strengthen our country. And I also think that it's not right to talk that now that everyone saw that Ukraine still has corruption, we should stop supporting Ukraine. It's like kind of ballistic because it's not the same thing. Yes, we still have corruption like any other country. It’s just highlighted and talked about more often than other countries. And we're trying to remove it. And we showed it by criticizing our government during war.

MG: Just before I let you go, how are Ukrainians who have lived through a year of war almost, how are they reacting to the scandal?

VERONIKA MELKOZEROVA: As I told you, it’s very painful, but they are. I see on social media. Although the TV marathon presented only the official version of the Defence ministry at first, but after that, parliament immediately met. They are investigating and people are pushing for it. So we are not tolerating corruption during war. It's painful, but we are ready to criticize and punish even our own officials because they are undermining security.

MG: Veronika, thank you very much.

VERONIKA MELKOZEROVA: Thank you.

MG: Veronika Melkozerova is a reporter for Politico Europe. She was in Brussels. Tym Mylovanov is a former Ukrainian minister of economic development, now president of the Kyiv School of Economics and an advisor to President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's administration. He is in Kyiv. Tym, hello to you.

TYM MYLOVANOV: Hi.

MG: How serious is this crisis?

TYM MYLOVANOV: Well, I don't think it's that serious, but I think it's good that it’s happening now because it's going to prevent some other things which can come up further. Basically, what's happening is that corruption was endemic in Ukraine prior to 2014, prior to the revolution of Dignity. There was a culture shift then when people basically realized that the institutions get eroded by corruption. And that's why we didn't have any military which could resist Crimea annexation. We didn't have any judiciary. We didn't have any law enforcement which could resist a Russian propped up separatist. And, you know, so that's when people, I think, came to realize that corruption is not just a small thing, you know, that sure, it can destroy the country. And since that, we have been building anti-corruption, law enforcement, formal institutions, also civil society watchdogs, investigative journalists with mixed success in some areas. You know, there's been really, really amazing progress, like let's say in the central bank clean-up of the banking system or in some others like in some procurement, especially in defence procurement, has been met with mixed success.

MG: Right.

TYM MYLOVANOV: It's good that this progress continues now also. Of course, the revelations are damaging.

MG: But how could you say that this is not serious? I mean, take a look at the list of people, the prominent people who have been caught up in this. From the Deputy Minister of Defence, on down some of the most prominent faces inside President Zelenskyy's administration. That would suggest that this is a serious crisis in government right now in Ukraine.

TYM MYLOVANOV: Well, you know, so if we look, it's like four deputy ministers resigned out of about 80 or 120. But I think the highest ranking official who resigned is in fact Kyrylo Tymoshenko, deputy head of the office, deputy of Yermak. And that, I think, is a high ranking official. While he's not directly connected to any corruption scandal, there are two narratives in the market and, you know, kind of among businessmen and among media. One is this impropriety about get in the car. Also, there's nothing illegal. It looks bad. The car was donated to the government and they use this car to move to the frontlines. But it does look bad because obviously there are people who require these cars much more than the officials who have to drive from Kyiv to the frontlines and back. But then there is this governor, governor in Dnipro region where there was a procurement scandal from the previous times. And there is a fear that somehow it might be connected to this. And so that's damaging. And I think that's the highest ranked scandal. In fact, that's not what's being talked about. Mostly what’s being talked about is the MOD procurement contract and the generator procurement contracts. There, those contracts have not been implemented. So no money changed hands. And it was in one contract. It was law enforcement which investigated that and actually made an arrest. And that's how it got to the news. In the other contract, it's parallel. It's law enforcement, the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine. And at the same time, journalist broke the story. And also that contract was signed in December. So in that sense, it's damaging, but it also shows that there is some internal struggle within the government and the law enforcement system is working. And also the reactions is swift. So, you know, it’s positive symptoms, while of course negative symptoms because of the corruption itself.

MG: Zelensky has taken a tough line on those who are accused of this. People have been fired, forced to resign. Some have resigned given the nature of the scandal. Who do you think that tough line is directed at? Is it directed at Ukrainians or is it directed internationally?

TYM MYLOVANOV: I think at least four audiences. The first audience is deep state, because there is deep state. And as I said before, in some areas, the death has been removed. But in some others, you know, let's say in electronic procurement or not related to Ministry of Defence, that's probably more or less clean, although there are big issues. Ministry of defence, when it comes to weapons, you know, there was tight oversight. But this was food procurement. So, you know, apparently, some people took opportunity. And so that is an issue. So deep state is former or current officials in the bureaucracy. We call it deep state and twisted interests, you know. And you know, in some sense, in my view, this is the same culture as the Russian culture. So it's not that people are genetically different, it's just we are fighting a culture issue here too. You know, Russia has a problem with culture and this people have a problem with culture. So we have two fronts, one internal and one the military front. The second audience of course is Ukrainians, the public. And I think this is the primary audience for president Zelenskyy. And there are two more audiences, the international friends of Ukraine and then the Russians, because Russians are going to, of course, take any advantage they can to try to push the narrative. In fact, I've heard it today on major news networks saying this is evidence that Ukraine should not be supported, that Russia is right and, you know, all kinds of things. So there are four audiences. And in my view, the primary audience is Ukrainian population, Ukrainian citizens, because they are the stakeholders. They are who care about, you know, they have the skin in the game. They are fighting for their survival. And it's really appalling and outrageous that someone in the meantime is trying to take advantage.

MG: It comes at a time when, as we've said, the president is pleading on a daily basis for international assistance. We're learning this morning the tanks, it seems, will be coming from Germany and the United States. But on a daily basis, he is asking for support. Is there a concern that that flow of assistance could be impacted by allegations like this, the whiff of corruption, the whiff that some of the assistance may not be going where it's supposed to be going?

TYM MYLOVANOV: In my view, of course, this is the concern. You know, it might not even be a concern. It might be the main concern, you know, internationally, because we have seen accusations of corruption with weapons handling. Remember that Financial Times article sometime in June where it was arguing that, you know, somehow the weapons which are sent to Ukraine could get in the wrong hands. And then there was the Pentagon and NATO and Ukraine were going on the record saying it actually is not true, and the evidence is not there. So there is this discussion. And part of this discussion is, of course, pushed by Russia, because it's in their interest. And Russia does it very strategically. It puts a little bit of truth, a little bit of lies, and then tries to confuse people and disengage. Part of it is true that, you know, we need trust and we need oversight. And so the swift reactions of Zelenskyy and both through political channels, through resignations or firing and through law enforcement arrests, that shows that this issue is taken seriously. And that allows Zelenskyy to continue to control the narrative or try to control the narrative, because I think it's critically important.

MG: Important now, but also important when it comes to the future of the country. When you're looking at reconstruction, this is not going to be weaponry. This will be billions and billions of dollars that will have to be poured back into Ukraine to rebuild the nation. What does Zelenskyy need to do to reassure the international community and international agencies that would be donating that money that it's going to go where it's supposed to be going?

TYM MYLOVANOV: Well, like you know, this is really going to be a big issue for further reasons. You know, one is domestic, but also international lobbying. And I already hear the arguments in Washington and somewhere in Europe, people saying, oh, you know, we're entitled to a certain quota, We're entitled to certain profits. And I know several very rich people from around the world are currently setting up funds in Ukraine to position themselves to be able to benefit from this money coming in. So there are a lot of people who are already, you know, some in more legal ways, others in less legal ways are trying to take advantage of the opportunity to earn money on the reconstruction.

MG: And what do you mean by that, that people are positioning themselves to take advantage of the money that's going to come in?

TYM MYLOVANOV: People are opening companies. People are, you know, rebuilding a little bit or opening offices in Ukraine, start setting up PR campaigns, hiring personnel, you know, getting licenses. So it's not quite the golden rush yet, but there are a lot of people in the market who are recruiting other people who can then try to make connections and get contracts once they are forthcoming. And so I think this is bigger than just the corruption issue. And the way to address it, of course, is transparency. But on top of that, very clear benchmarking on what the prices should be, how we design, what do we recover first? What are the priorities? Very clear transparency. There should be an audit. An the audit should be done both by, I guess, civil society or political mechanism, but also through maybe big four companies, you know, something very professional so we don't end up with another Afghanistan, we don't end up with another Iraq or some other where we later, you know, 10 years from now, we will learn that some funds have been misused. So we want to make sure that it is very, very clear and this benchmarking is done now. And I think Zelenskyy is very aware of it. And so he's actually pushing on making sure the framework’s in place. And the government is secretly and quietly working on strengthening the regulations. And we're talking with the IFIs and governments on how to set up this framework. And the work is being done. But I think you're very right to point out that this should not be a blind spot.

MG: There's a lot at stake here. Tym, we'll leave it there. Glad to talk to you. Thank you very much.

TYM MYLOVANOV: Thank you.

MG: Take care. Bye bye

TYM MYLOVANOV: Bye.

MG: Tym Mylovanov is a former Ukrainian minister of economic development, now president of the Kyiv School of Economics. He was in Kyiv, Ukraine. Your CBC News is up next. And then when we return, amid health care staffing shortages, there are some hoping that breaking a longstanding stigma might help. How to get more men into nursing. We will talk about that coming up in 6 minutes. My name is Matt Galloway and this is The Current on CBC Radio One. Stick around.

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MALE NURSES

Guests: Brandon Smith, Ryan Spear, Peter Kellett

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, we take a walk with National Geographic's Paul Salopek. He has experienced much of the pandemic in rural China as part of his walk around the world. He's about 21,000 kilometres into that walk. We'll speak with him coming up. But first, nursing's gender divide.

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MG: Last week, there was something different about an overnight shift on Ward 4NB at the Health Sciences Centre in St John's, Newfoundland. All the nurses on staff during that shift were men. It's something that charge nurse Mona Molloy had never seen before.

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MONA MOLLOY: I got pretty excited. And I said, Boss, we have to get a picture. I've been at Health Science since 1997. But in my 32 years, I have never had a complete all male staff for a whole entire shift.

MG: The most recent stats from the Canadian Nurses Association show that as of 2021, only about 9% of nurses in this country are men. Those numbers, though, appear to be rising. With widespread staffing shortages sweeping through our health care systems, getting more men into nursing could help. Brandon Smith and Ryan Spear are nurses at the Health Sciences Centre in St. John's. They were part of that all male shift and they are in St. John's this morning. Gentlemen, good morning.

RYAN SPEAR: Good morning.

BRANDON SMITH: Good morning.

MG: Brandon, what was your reaction when you realized you'd be working on a shift with all male nurses?

BRANDON SMITH: It was pretty surprising. I mean, I think we're a bit more fortunate than most floors in the hospital. We have, I think, more than the average number of male nurses. But it's pretty rare that they would all be there together. And I would be surprised if it were to happen again, to be honest.

MG: Ryan, we heard from Mona Molloy and she talked about the photo. I'm just looking at the picture right now of you all in the hospital working together. This got a lot of attention. Are you surprised at how much attention this photo got?

RYAN SPEAR: Yes, definitely. You know, we originally just had that photo just because it just seemed like such a unique experience. And then, you know, it just caught a bit of wind and it just picked up and it just spread around. But, you know, I think it's all good, good for the nursing profession.

MG: Mona calls you the boys.

RYAN SPEAR: [laughing] Yeah. Yeah. No, that's Mona. Mona always got a little soft spot from the boys too. So it was special.

MG: How long have you been a nurse, Ryan?

RYAN SPEAR: Officially this spring, it'll be four years for me that I've been a nurse.

MG: Yeah. And what about for you, Brandan?

BRANDON SMITH: I graduated last spring. So I'm working up on a year now.

MG: So you're really new to all of this?

BRANDON SMITH: Yeah, I'm pretty new. So it's nice to get a little bit of recognition, I guess.

MG: Why did you want to go into this field? Why did you want to become a nurse, Brandon?

BRANDON SMITH: Well, there's lots of opportunities. I mean, you're not just confined to a hospital if you don't want to be. And there's lots of room for advancement. And it's just a great, great career choice, I think.

MG: Was there anyone in your family that had been in nursing or?

BRANDON SMITH: Oh, yeah. There's a few nurses in my family. I think that may have swayed my decision to go to nursing school.

MG: Yeah. What about for you, Ryan? Why did you want to get into this?

RYAN SPEAR: I'd say fairly similar to Brandon. Just the ability to work within different areas and I guess the ability to continue your education. And you know, a lot of people that we work with too kind of work towards their nurse practitioner as they're working. So, you know, there's just so many different areas as you age and you just have the flexibility, which I just thought that drew me towards.

MG: So and again, I mean, was there anyone in your family that had done this work before that gave you the sense that those possibilities were there, that you could make a difference in people's lives in this profession?

RYAN SPEAR: I do have an aunt that is a nurse. And there might have been a small amount of inspiration kind of from that that drove me towards it. But ever since I was in high school, I had an idea that I wanted to be a nurse.

MG: Really? All that way back.

RYAN SPEAR: Yes.

MG: That's interesting, in part because as I said in the introduction, just about 9% of the nurses in Canada are men. Why do you think that number is so low?

RYAN SPEAR: I think sometimes people might think there is some form of a stigma around being a male nurse in the nursing profession. But, you know, even in my four years of being a nurse, when I first started, unfortunately, I believe there were three or four of us. And like I said, it's just grown. More and more males going in. And within nursing school as well too, you definitely see more men.

MG: So is there a stigma? I’ll ask you both this, but Ryan, since you raised it, is there a stigma, do you think?

RYAN SPEAR: I think I felt the stigma more as a nursing student. I thought people kind of felt that they could have a little more pushback seeing a male come in.

MG: What do you mean by that?

RYAN SPEAR: Just sometimes, I guess, you know, we do do a lot of hands on care, and it is a bit more personalized. And I think sometimes people just like, I mean everyone has the option of the choice, but I think as people have seen more and more males within the profession, you know, we're equally as trained, equally as skilled. And you know, I think people are just more accepting of it now. And once they see and have been cared, they're just sort of more open.

MG: Have you seen that in your own practice? I mean, you mentioned push back in terms of the care that you might offer. Are there stories that stand out in terms of people being surprised that you're the nurse but also maybe feeling uncomfortable about you being the nurse?

RYAN SPEAR: Yeah. And I think that can happen with anyone as well too. It’s kind of dependent on people's past experiences as well. But for the most part, I feel it is more positive now, definitely.

MG: What about for you, Brandon? I mean, you're new or newer to this, but have you ever seen or felt any stigma that's been around?

BRANDON SMITH: Not really. I mean, it depends on the patient's comfort level. But I would say the majority of the time, patients are just as comfortable with male nurses compared to female nurses for the most part.

MG: What would you say to somebody who might be uncomfortable?

BRANDON SMITH: Well, you know, it is a decision. So you just, you know, educate them that you're just as trained. But also, you know, we're not going to force anybody to do something they don't want to do.

MG: What do you love about the job, Brandan?

BRANDON SMITH: It's really a hands on career. I mean, there's so many things that you get to do with medications and dressing changes. And really, you know, you're always learning something and it's pretty interesting.

MG: These are stressful times, though. And I mean, I mentioned in the introduction, a lot of people are leaving the profession because of what we've been through certainly in the last few years, but even just right now and the strains on the health care system. Is it difficult to find those moments of joy in the work that you're doing given the circumstances that you're working in?

BRANDON SMITH: I think we're pretty fortunate on our floor. I think we have a really great group of co-workers that are there to support you no matter what's happening.

MG: You're lucky.

BRANDON SMITH: Yeah, definitely.

MG: Ryan, what should be done and what could be done, do you think, to recruit more men into the field of nursing?

RYAN SPEAR: You know, I think exactly what we're doing right now is definitely having a positive impact. And like I said, just that picture we took is getting so much positive support. But I think, you know, as things like this kind of get out in public, you know, I think it might spark the interest of people, you know, that are in high school or even, you know, anyone that's looking to start a new career to jump into a program because, you know, there is multiple options. So, you know, a fast track program or you could do your four year program. But, you know, I think in our unit too, we do have a lot of students that come through doing our own clinicals. And I think they see that there's a lot of males on our unit, and that may draw them to be interested in working in our unit in the future as well.

MG: Do they ask you questions about that, I mean, about being in that position and how they could end up there?

RYAN SPEAR: What do you mean by that?

MG: Well, just when they're coming through, I mean, if the students are there, they see you in some ways as a point of inspiration.

RYAN SPEAR: Yeah, no, definitely. And I mean, we're always going to be educating. So, you know, if you could make a connection with any student here or there, I think it's meaningful.

MG: So what do you tell them? This is the same question that I asked Brandon. What do you tell them about what you love about the job?

RYAN SPEAR: Like I said, I think the hands on, the busyness. And once you realize, you know, a 12 hour shift seems like a long time before you start working there. But when you're on your feet, you're on the move, you're helping co-workers and throw in a bit of the unpredictability that comes with health care, there's a bit of excitement that adds to that too, which keeps me interested. But again, I think, like Brandon said, we are lucky where we work. You know, our co-workers, you really get to spend a lot of time with people when you're working shift work together. Makes a big difference.

MG: You're at the hospital right now?

RYAN SPEAR: I am. Yeah.

MG: Well, we'll let you get back to work, and I'm glad to talk to you. Thank you very much.

RYAN SPEAR: Thanks.

MG: Brandon, thanks so much.

BRANDON SMITH: Yes, thank you.

MG: Brandon Smith and Ryan Spear, nurses at the Health Sciences Centre in St. John's, Newfoundland. Peter Kellett is a registered nurse, assistant professor as well of nursing at the University of Lethbridge. He's been studying men in nursing for 20 years. Peter, good morning to you.

PETER KELLETT: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What do you make of what happened in St. John's, Newfoundland, with an all-male shift? And as both Ryan and Brandon mentioned, a photo that has kind of gone all over the place, in part because of how atypical that may be, but also as a point of inspiration for people who want to get into nursing. What do you make of that?

PETER KELLETT: Oh, I think it's great. It's a sign that things are shifting in terms of the proportion of men in the profession. It's not the first time that I've heard of an all-male shift, but it's quite rare on a medical or surgical unit to get an all-male shift. And certainly, few years ago, it wouldn't have been even possible.

MG: When you take a look at part of this, it wouldn't have been possible because of who is in the class. When you take a look at your classroom, what does it look like today in terms of men entering the nursing field?

PETER KELLETT: It's shifting quite rapidly, especially over the past decade. For many decades, we were seeing only an increase of about 1% in the number of men in the profession each decade. But right now, looking at our classrooms at the University of Lethbridge, in our four year undergraduate program, about 20% of our nursing students are men. And in our after degree accelerated program, it ranges between 32 and 37% in the two different years.

MG: You graduated from nursing school when?

PETER KELLETT: 1995.

MG: How does that compare to even 95 when you were in class?

PETER KELLETT: Well, I was actually in a bit of an atypical class. I actually graduated from Memorial University in Newfoundland as well. And in that class, there were six of us in a class of 50 that started, which was quite atypical at the time. But certainly, it was much rarer to see men on nursing floors at that time. And you talked a little bit earlier with the other guys about stigma. And in the early days, it was very common for patients to refuse to have you as a man, which certainly was their right. But it was pretty much almost a daily occurrence in that era. But things have changed immensely. And I don't think most men experience that very often.

MG: Did that happen to you directly that a patient would say, I don't want to be cared for by you, I would like somebody else?

PETER KELLETT: Yes. Really, I think more than anything it was just an unfamiliarity with men in that role. And it was usually a female patient, especially older female patients. And it was also very common in that era that when you walked into a room as a nurse, that the patient assumed that you were the doctor. And so you'd have to explain that you were their nurse. And so it sort of shows how much things have changed over the years.

MG: Why did you end up in nursing? I mean, what was your path into this profession?

PETER KELLETT: Well, I think there are a number of things. My mother was a nurse. I also had other nurses in my family. I think it just aligned with me as a person. I wanted to have the ongoing relationship with the patient. And nurses are the ones who are with the patients 24 hours a day. And I think that the other thing is that nursing is quite a technical field. It's something which takes quite a bit of knowledge and skill. And I really enjoyed learning all of the ins and outs, and trying to make the connection between the different things and people's conditions and the impact that I could make with the patient every day.

MG: I mean, it's a very, very tough job especially now. But also people call it a calling in some ways.

PETER KELLETT: Yeah. I think it's been referred to that way for a long time. And I think for some people it's a calling. And for others, I think people are making the choice because strategically, it is also a good job which pays well and has a lot of flexibility as the other gentlemen sort of referred to.

MG: One of the things that you said in passing is that there is a belief in society that nursing is somehow a lower profession, perhaps compared to being a doctor. How pervasive is that still, do you think?

PETER KELLETT: I think it's shifting, but it's still there. In fact, I was just asked the other day by somebody why I didn't choose medicine. And, you know, I think it's really related to sort of those long standing patriarchal beliefs in society which assigned caregiving, particularly physical caregiving, to the realm of women. And because it was assigned to the realm of women in a patriarchal society, it was assigned lesser status. And nothing could be further from the truth in my opinion. The work that we do as nurses is vital, and it makes a huge difference to that patient. And so, you know, I think this is part of the conversation that has to happen in societies, and sort of improve the standing of caregiving and recognize its importance.

MG: I mean, there's real urgency to this conversation now, in part because, as we've said, Canada is experiencing a nursing shortage. And part of this is about addressing the working conditions of nurses, something that we've talked about a lot on this program before. But there is a real push to make sure that more people feel as though this could be a job that they could go into. How should nursing schools recruit more men into the field in that context?

PETER KELLETT: Well, I've been involved in some recruitment efforts as well. And I think that one of the big things is to increase the visibility of men in nursing. And programs like this one are a part of that. I think men will benefit from seeing role models in the profession, to hearing about men in the role. I think even in terms of the terminology used in society, we need to sort of start shifting that a little bit because we talk about male nurses. Well, we're nurses. And the fact that we're assigning male to it is making us an oddity. I think we have to gradually shift that image that whenever somebody thinks of a nurse, that it's always a woman. And I think that that is beginning to shift.

MG: Do you see that changing over time? You've been in this for a while and in doing this work in teaching for a while, if you were to look ahead, I don't know, five, 10 years, what do you think that field would look like?

PETER KELLETT: I do think in the classroom, we're increasingly seeing a movement towards gender parity. It's going to take a little while to get there. It will take a little longer to see that kind of parity showing up in the actual workplace, just because it's a more gradual thing, because you also have some nurses retiring at the other end, including men. But I think that we will gradually see it move closer and closer to 50%. It's going to be a while before we get to the point where we see that even up.

MG: And as you say, the language that we use matters.

PETER KELLETT: It does. I also research gender in general. And I think that there's a much greater recognition of the role gender plays in our lives. And I think that these conversations are happening more and more. And I think amongst the younger generations, they're not seeing the barriers in the same way that previous generations did. And I think that like one of the gentlemen you talked to before talked about, the fact that they're thinking about it in high school is a great thing, because in the past, what we've actually seen is that a large percentage of the men who went into nursing actually entered it as a second career rather than as a first career, which meant that they usually had some contact with the health care system or they realized later on that it was a great option for them. But it wasn't on the radar of young men for many years.

MG: It is now. Peter, I'm glad to talk to you about this. Thank you very much.

PETER KELLETT: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Peter Kellett, registered nurse and assistant professor in nursing at the University of Lethbridge.

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MG: This is The Current on CBC Radio. My name is Matt Galloway.

SOUNDCLIP

BRUCE KORNREICH: We are learning that cats can be and are quite social in the right environment. I think really interesting things are the notion that cats choose to be with us. There is good evidence now to suggest that cats recognize us. They can communicate with us, so they're very intuitive. They really communicate with us well. And in many cases, they really do want to be with us and kind of can sense what we're feeling.

MG: That's Bruce Kornreich, longtime veterinarian, director of the Cornell Feline Health Centre. Yesterday on this program, we talked about how our often misunderstood feline friends perhaps are more social than we actually expected them to be. No surprise you came up with cat stories. The Current’s senior producer Karin Marley is here with some of your mail. Karin, good morning.

KARIN MARLEY: Good morning, Matt. So the first letter is from Janet Hutchinson in Calgary. She writes: “As I listen to this, one of our cats, Felix, is on top of the fridge spying on the birds and being very vocal about it. This is after he was on the high ledge in the dining room and knocked down a large wine glass, and then stood watching seriously as I cleaned it all up. Salem is sitting, watching me type this, and waiting until my back is turned to dip his paw in my coffee. They are characters. They know precisely when I should be getting up to feed them, and will start knocking things off the bedside table if I don’t move fast enough. We absolutely adore them. Life would be lonely without them.”

MG: Liene Haruta from Mildmay, Ontario wrote to say our show reminded her of her cat Simon Bunbury, named after the Oscar Wilde character from The Importance of Being Earnest. “While I was working to pay to get him out of the Humane Society, Simon was busy going to the Hair Salon, Home Hardware, the convenient store, the church, the school behind my house and any house that would let him in. On Saturdays, he would visit the bank and have a break with the tellers who would give him cheese. One day, my dad opened the bank door and my cat walked out. One night, he, presumably her cat not her dad, got stuck in the bank and spent the evening with the cleaners who let him out when they left. A bank teller told my mother that he was in a Christmas pageant at the school with her daughter. He used to spend time in the kindergarten class. When I would pick him up at The Humane Society, the women at the desk always raved about how much they loved him, and would wave saying "Bye Simon, see you next week." He was such a gem. Lived to nearly 20 years old. All his life, all he ever wanted was to be with people. I wish I could include all his crazy antics here but alas, there isn't enough room.”

KARIN MARLEY: [laughing] Another performance cat. Cats like the stage.

MG: Indeed.

KARIN MARLEY: Elizabeth Block in Toronto reminisced about her cat, Fizz, also known as Fizzy-Wizzy. She writes: “When I got him, I intended him to be an indoor cat. He intended otherwise and won. He visited the neighbours. People who didn't know his name called him Inky. He was a tuxedo cat, black back, white front. He had a tag until he got it off. And one day, I got a phone call. "Do you have a cat named Fuzz or Fizz?" I admitted that I did. "He's in my apartment and he won't leave!" I went around the corner, and a woman was leading him down the hall. I said, "You're feeding him! Of course he won't leave!" Then I made a mistake. I got another cat, a young, vigorous male who did not distinguish between "playing" and "fighting." Fizzy was a senior cat, and he didn't like it. He went looking for another home and he found one. I would see him from time to time, and he wasn't hostile, but he was no longer my kitty.”

MG: Finally, this comes from Catherine: “Miss Kitty came to me as a rescue just before lockdown. Her owners had died. She came to me when I was still in a lot of anguish, grieving the loss of my husband. She was and is surprisingly polite. She would watch me from the end of the bed, then would catch my eye and shyly approach and comfort me, offering her paw hugs, purring. She has definitely helped me through COVID isolation, and there is definitely reciprocated love.” Are you a cat person?

KARIN MARLEY: I'm an allergic person, alas. You?

MG: This is the only time in my life that I've never had a cat.

KARIN MARLEY: Right?

MG: Now I'm tempted. Well, I shouldn't say that too loud because people in my house might be listening. Karin, thank you very much.

KARIN MARLEY: You're welcome.

MG: Karin Marley, senior producer here on The Current. Any thoughts on anything you hear in this program? Do get in touch. Email us, thecurrent@cbc.ca. Coming up after your regional update, we'll check back in with Paul Salopek. He is walking around the world, literally. We'll talk to him from rural China coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Stay with us.

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PAUL SALOPEK

Guest: Paul Salopek

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Paul Salopek has been on a journey a decade long walking journey. He started in January 2013 in Ethiopia. Walking the route our ancestors first travelled at of Africa. And he's making his way slowly to the southern tip of South America. He calls this an experiment in slow journalism. Paul Salopek is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and National Geographic fellow. And we've been checking in with him regularly along his walk. The last time was in 2020 when he was holed up in Myanmar because of the pandemic. But he's on the move again. Paul, hello.

PAUL SALOPEK: Hey, Matt, good to hear you again.

MG: It's great to talk to you. Where in the world are you?

PAUL SALOPEK: I'm in western China. I'm about 3000 kilometres into China, away north of the Burmese border. Myanmar headed for the border of Russia. So I'm basically walking across China south to north.

MG: Where you are right now. What is it like? We were speaking just as the Lunar New Year celebrations continue in China, but also around the world. What is it like where you are?

PAUL SALOPEK: Yeah, so I'm paused in a province called Shaanxi in the northern part. So it's kind of a rolling hills, very drawn by very kind of brown and yellow winter colours, quite cold across from kind of more tropical, moderate, mild southern China into kind of chillier, colder, drier northern China.

MG: And as you've been walking through China, I mean, this is a wild time. Any time would be it would be fascinating to be walking through China. But this in particular is a moment because of the pandemic and what's been going on. How has that impacted your walk?

PAUL SALOPEK: Yeah, I mean, it truly is. I mean, there's this you know, it's the opportunity to get to walk across China anytime would be once in a lifetime. So there's kind of a once in a lifetime walk within a once in a lifetime journey. So I feel very privileged. But coming through at a time when when China has been, you know, going through a period of first locking down very severe COVID controls to now the cork is out of the bottle, if you will, or, you know, the genie's out. So China is now catching up with the rest of the world. All the experiences that you in Canada, North America, Europe and everyone else went through, you know, years ago, China's just kind of slowly going through now, you know, a very high infection rate. I don't know what it is, but everybody that I know has, you know, caught the virus and thankfully most of them gone through fine. But during the height of the so-called Zero-covid policy here, I did have to stop sometimes to kind of wait for lockdowns to to pass. Sometimes I walked around political districts, kind of subsections of provinces that had locked down because of had I set foot over into them, I would have been quarantined myself for a week or a couple of weeks. So my walking route would reflect Zero-covid policy in China. It's kind of you know, it's zigzagging around these borders of of lockdowns.

MG: Like many of us. I'm following your walking through social media and you made reference to a frantic, motorised sprint to escape a lockdown. What was that about?

PAUL SALOPEK: Yeah, well, you know, Matt, it's really hard to do that. I mean, this is a walking project and the whole purpose and it's continuous, right? I don't go back to North America since I started. So I've been walking, as you noted, for ten years continuously. So it's a really tough decision to kind of pause the walk or stop it and hail a taxi, as it were, which is basically what I did with my my Chinese walking partners. We were trapped between two lockdown counties in Sichuan province and we couldn't go forward. We couldn't go back. And the little area that we were in was about to be lockdown itself. It was no small decision because think about it this way. You're on foot. It's very difficult, if not impossible, to out walk a virus during a pandemic. Right. So I would have gotten caught in one lockdown in one county, maybe even isolated for a week or weeks. Then when they lifted their quarantine, I would have walked into another county that would have gone into lockdown. So I could have been stranded there for months. So we bit the bullet and and held a cab and wrote it for about 80 kilometres just to get out of a danger zone. And that will be noted. We keep a digital map where we we tell readers, quite honestly, when I've had to kind of step off the trail, the last time I did this, ironically, was way back and on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, kind of in a dicey, dodgy area coming over the mountains, the Hindu Kush, where I got detained by Pakistani forces. So yeah, it happens. It's all part of the greater story.

MG: Have you managed to avoid getting sick yourself?

PAUL SALOPEK: I know I can't call it, you know, I got it. Gosh, about three weeks ago and it knocked me off my feet. It was kind of a moderate case. I had to stop for ten days, but back on the move and no complaints. Again, it's it's all part of the larger story. If, you know, if I could walk through a pandemic and it and not get sick, that would be wonderful. But the fact that I got sick is all part of the story.

MG: It is indeed. Yeah. As you walk along, I mean, what are people in China in particular? What are they telling you about about what they're going through now and maybe even how, to your point, how the rest of the world was responding to COVID as they were as locked down as they were?

PAUL SALOPEK: Yeah, I mean, that's fascinating. And I've got to throw in a really big caveat, right, because I'm walking through western China, which is fairly rural and in some cases even going through wilderness, you know, went through some mountains in south western Sichuan, an ethnic Tibetan area that very few people are going over 4500 metre passes, going through snow. And then the bulk of the rest has been largely about 80% of the time through tiny little villages, many of them, you know, sort of depopulated. You know, three generations of people migrating to urban zones. So the people that I'm encountering are kind of in the hinterlands of China, right? In other words, they're not a set of people who would have the same opinions or thoughts of somebody living in a cosmopolitan megaplex like Shanghai. And they are, you know, first of all, they're startled to see me because I'm probably the first white in or foreigner to kind of come through their hamlet or community and generations, particularly on foot. And then, you know, there's this there's a sense of curiosity about, you know, what are you doing? You coming through? Then also, you know, hey, how is the world handling this? And this was a constant theme that came up in conversations, especially during kind of the hardest part of zero COVID rules. I think after, you know, almost three years of this, you know, there was kind of dam bursting of people, you know, we need to get our lives going. We need to get our businesses back going in that range from farmers who are like exporting stuff to Myanmar to, you know, of course, you know, stock brokers in major cities in the east.

MG: Can you talk more about the response that you get when in those those rural communities suddenly you appear on the horizon walking through their area? What are people saying to you.

PAUL SALOPEK: After an initial shock and then kind of laughing at the ridiculousness of me telling them I've walked here from Africa? There's a sense of of wonder and curiosity that kind of morphs very quickly into hospitality. I'm very delighted to report that I've been received with almost universal warmth and welcome through all the different communities that I walk through in China. I've never been to China before. I've entered more than 70 countries during my career. But China's new to me and like a lot of people who had not been to China before, it's very easy to look at China as a monolith from the outside. But it's very diverse, very diverse. And so I stayed with many different minority communities in the Southwest. I've walked through, you know, urban centres, Chengdu, city of, you know, many, many millions of people, very worldly in the reception to me at least. You know, a skinny old white guy walking through these landscapes has been very affirming. There's this strong sense of, Hey, come in, sit down, take a load off, have a cup of char, have a tea, you know, and even a meal.

MG: You mentioned you're walking partners as well. Tell me a little bit about how you how you find people to be on the journey with you.

PAUL SALOPEK: Yeah. You know, some readers think that there's this highly organised kind of machine that kind of surrounds the walk that, you know, that might that people will come in, but it's actually very seat of the pants, very organic. It's often word of mouth. So, you know, people know about the project. As you mentioned, people are following online across the world. People send notes to me saying, hey, when you come to my home area, you know, whether it's in China or anywhere else, can I walk with you? Right. And, you know, I often say, yes, it's along my route. And those people become very, very dear to me. I mean, something about walking makes very strong connections very quickly emotionally with the people you walk with. And they in turn, when they have to kind of get back to their daily life, you know, go back to their jobs or whatever. They help me find the next person. So it could be their cousin or it could be like a colleague, it could be a historian, as was the case in Sichuan. I walk with an amazing historian of medieval China. I've walked with a conceptual artist who shoots videos of walking. I've walked with documentary photographer. I've walked with a woman who's a book editor. You know, outdoor enthusiasts, cross-cultural exchange educators. It's been fantastic. I've walked with about 16 or 17 walking partners in China so far.

MG: And do they understand what you're doing and why you're doing this?

PAUL SALOPEK: Very much so. It is sort of a self-selecting group who would want to come walk. Right. You have to kind of be a little bit unusual if you're living in a town or a city and you find out about the Out of Eden walk and you say, Oh, that's kind of cool. And then you somehow get in touch with me or, you know, one of my my colleagues and you say, Hey, can I come walking? It takes a certain kind of person who might have a little bit of wanderlust right in their bones, a little bit of the nomadic spin to come anyway. And so they get it. They sort of get the wonder of moving through the world slowly, the way the ancestors that I'm following. Right? Because my project is not about setting Guinness World Records. It's not about, you know, a survivalist reality show, God forbid. It's about storytelling. And looking back to the past a little bit to the first Homo sapiens who who dispersed out of Africa. And those are the people who I'm following to see if there are any lessons that we that we can remember for our own well-being as a global community, as we kind of walk forward into a pretty tough century.

MG: As you mentioned, China is not a monolith. There is extraordinary diversity in terms of the landscape that's there. And you wrote about walking through a mountain, pass an area, as you say, that's. Known to be one of the most biodiverse places in the world. Can you describe that area and what you saw and walking through those mountains?

PAUL SALOPEK: Yeah, Again, what an extraordinary privilege. These are these are corners of the world that even people who are far more qualified than I am, you know, a wildlife biologist have difficulty accessing. Right. And here I am kind of bumbling through it. And so what you're talking about is the Gaoligong mountains of southwestern Yunnan province. That area is at the crossroads of so many biomes. It's also a contact zone between the Indian plate and the Asian plate that kind of slammed together. And they've pushed up this accordion set of parallel mountains and valleys that run north south. So you have alpine environments, kind of like tundra grassland, way up in the snow zone, down to swamp lands, down around sea level. And even more extraordinary is because they run north and south, they go through these latitudes, change right from kind of subtropics to kind of more moderate climates further up, you know, the globe, because it's just literally this crossroads of habitats. I mean, there are 5000 different species of plants there. There are, you know, hundreds of species of mammals and birds. Some of them are being discovered even now. That particular mountain range that I walk through, they're discovering new species every single year. And not too long ago, they discovered a new ape, which is kind of extraordinary when you think it ape is a big animal that kind of stands out. And they found a new species of that. So, yeah, it was amazing. I mean, I'm it's an open all word, but it was amazing and exhilarating to walk through this landscape.

MG: We talk a lot from a distance about the importance of preserving biodiversity. And that might be something that people are seeing even close to home where they live. But seeing what you saw there in that mountain pass, I mean, what does it do to your thinking about the importance of ensuring that the the biodiversity on this planet is maintained, is preserved, that we do everything possible to protect it.

PAUL SALOPEK: It's driven only mad by what I saw in the rest of the world. Sad to say, it's sobering. So I could be exhilarated by being in a place like the garlic ocean nature preserve, Right. Which is this kind of ark of life. It's kind of big. It's it juts up into the subtropical skies like. Like the prow, the giant green ship. Right. As it's covered with forest. And they're teeming with insects and birds and reptiles and you name it, and you're kind of dizzy with joy. But then you stop and think about what just lies beyond the garlic ocean. It's a human transformed landscape, not just in China, which is heavily cultivated with with intensive agriculture around, you know, the margins with this preserve. But all over the world. And what I remind my readers is don't really believe what TV nature documentaries show you because they tend to give you this illusion that there are these big patches of nature out there. And and in my humble case of falling a little line that is now, I don't know, like 20 to 22000 kilometres long, whatever it is out of Africa, the number of days or weeks that I saw wildlife and any number I could I could count on the fingers of one hand. It was mostly in the Horn of Africa and mostly in a second part was in the western Himalayas around Afghanistan. The rest of my route has been basically terraformed by human appetites, mostly by agriculture, right, But also pipelines and canals and cities and towns and villages. It's, it's sobering how little of the natural world is left. Along the route that I've walked, because the people I'm following, of course, saw nothing but pristine horizon of nature after pristine horizon of nature.

MG: I wanted to ask you one more thing about China, and that is you were able to bunk down with cardamom farmers. I think most of us who use cardamom in the kitchen have no idea about where it's coming from, who's farming this. So what did you see there?

PAUL SALOPEK: It was a subtropical valley in the foothills of the Gaoligong [unintelligible] that same mountain range. And the farmers were an ethnic minority, the Hui, who are Muslim. And they had been there probably for the better part of a century, century and a half. And they were they were farming cardamom, basically as part of a, you know, a government program to kind of find crops that were cash rich to help people in rural communities. So, you know, spices per kilo bring quite a bit of money back. So basically, imagine kind of a tropical subtropical rainforest on these rumpled, folded hills above you and down in the valley, cultivated on these, on these kind of lumpy footings of the mountains would be these large plantations of cardamom. If you're a Cardamom fan, you'd go crazy there. Also went through coffee plantations, tea plantations, papaya, you know, pomegranate, pears, apples, oranges. This place is kind of a cornucopia of vegetables and fruits.

MG: It speaks to what is at the heart of this mission, which is, as they say, a thoughtful alternative to the frenzy of shallower, fast paced media that often sows fear and ideological division. Slowing down is difficult for a lot of people in slowing down yourself. I mean, you're so far into this, what, more than 14 mile was 13,000 plus miles you've been on on this journey. What impact does that slowing down had on on what you see, but also on the relationships with the people that you walk with, the people that you talk with?

PAUL SALOPEK: I think we can all agree at some level it's slowing down. There's some. Well, first of all, it's sort of the way we've been for 99% of our history as a species. Right. We've kind of been kind of a slow in quotes. Right. Our transportation methods on foot, horseback, canoe, what have you. Our relationships are often developed over a lifetime. We didn't move around that much. We, you know, we were homebodies. We stayed in villages mainly only in 2010 has the number of of people living in cities superseded the number living in rural areas. So that's a major milestone. And things like there's no surprise to me what wide movements like slow cooking, right. Slow food are exploding today because I think is convenient as fast life is. And look, it is convenient. You know, I partake of the fast life of the early 21st century to write. I use telecommunications to disseminate my stories. It's essential. But I think there's something missing, this missing ingredient of humanity that comes with long, slow conversations. Right? Long term friendships. Right. Or romantic affairs or the deepest in our lives. Right. You know, there's just a reason behind this. We're kind of wired working around Stone Age, brains and hearts. And they have not been able to catch up with the fast, accelerating pace of our modern civilisation. When you mentioned what is it like to meet people in China, I can tell you it's the same answer whether I meet them in Turkey or in Ethiopia or, you know, ever there's a sense of longing after they get over the laughing part where the hilarity of how ridiculous it is and lunatic this walk is. When I say goodbye to them, I can see the gleam in their eye that they the part of them says, Man, I wish I could go with you. Right. We miss it. We're nomads. And I just finished a piece on the 10th anniversary, My Walk, which is just a couple of weeks ago, about what was on what is one of the biggest epiphanies of ten years of walking across the planet, and one is embrace your inner immigrant, embrace your inner nomad, because you know it's going to be a very handy set of muscles to use as we move into all these as we start moving together, whether we like it or not, together into the 21st century, that's pretty troubled, whether it's climate crises or resource distribution or soil depletion, right, for agriculture, ageing societies in the developed world, you know who's going to take the place of these people, right? If we don't have mass migration and as probably, you know, according to immigration experts at the U.N., there are more people voting with their feet today than ever in the history of our species. Right. Like close to a billion moving across borders in between. So what I said in my essay, after ten years of looking back on my shoulders, folks, first of all, don't don't be afraid of new people moving into your community because they're going to bring experiences and wisdom of the road that may be useful even in your lifetime, as massive shifts in people happen in the next few decades as some are predicting right there. There's one study that predicts that between one and 2 billion people are going to be moving in the next 50 years due to climate crises.

MG: Do you feel like a different person a decade into this?

PAUL SALOPEK: Yes and no. It's complicated. It's a it's a good and natural question to ask, But it would be like me asking you, where do you feel like a different person?

MG: Yeah, but I haven't walked 13,000 miles.

PAUL SALOPEK: Yeah, but you. But you've done some things. Here's. Here's something that I remind my walking partners. What I'm doing is not- it seems extraordinary, right? And in some ways, in some kind of superficial ways, it is. It is extraordinary, but it isn't. I get up, I go to work. The work is my trail. I file stories, I take pictures. You know, I'm I'm kind of a walking nomadic bureau. And you do the same. You just have to do it in a stationary place. And I have you know, I have relationships, my walking partners, deep friendships. You know, I make connections. I talk to fascinating people like you do at your job. So in the other things that I've got to remind people is I started as one of those 50, right? So this is not kind of like a early life transition. This is something I thought about for decades, and I felt like I was ready to do that. Said that said, I think the answer is yes. Of course, I feel like a different person. I think I think walking has made me more. Patient has made me a bit more tolerant, a bit more understanding. Yeah, as slowing down tends to do.

MG: Where is home for you now? Is it, is it just emotion? Is that what the idea of home is?

PAUL SALOPEK: Yes and no. It's not maybe the emotion, but it's the motion to the next home. Right. So tonight it's western China and the people around me who are helping me do my work, the people who who laugh with me, who might be kind of, you know, new, new people in my life, they might be called strangers. But very quickly, again, there's something about moving slowly, about kind of staying in a place for a while, not arriving in a car, seeing, stopping to get a meal and driving off, but sitting and chatting with people about their life, where connections are made. So, yeah, I mean, as I've said many times, my my destination is not the tip of Tierra del Fuego. My destination every single day that I get up to lace up my boots is people. I'm walking to people.

MG: Those people will be at the Russian border. That's your goal by summer is to reach the Russian border?

PAUL SALOPEK: Yes, Yes.

MG: Just finally, I mean, you've walked through a number of tumultuous situations. What are you thinking about as you get closer to Russia with the war unfolding in Ukraine right now? And I know that you try to walk in some ways above politics, but but that's going to be all around you as well.

PAUL SALOPEK: Yeah, You know, Matt, I don't know. I honestly, you know, sitting here tonight and I'm looking ahead at like there's another 3000 kilometres of China. To, to calliper between my my legs is I don't know what the situation will be, you know, late in the summer time. And and I guess I'll just have to assess it at the Amur river that divides China and Russia. Do I have a plan B? Not yet. But most of this walk is a truly in the moment. It's kind of it's improvising. It's problem solving. I mean, I couldn't get a visa to go to Iran, and I waited months in the country of Georgia and no visa came through. So I ended up walking through Central Asia rather than going through Iran. So, you know, it'll I'm just wait and see. One thing that that walking has taught me to go back to your other question about how it changed me is I can't over plan my life the way sedentary societies kind of offer you the the abundance and, you know, the comfort of being able to plan your life for your family, for yourself, for your kids. I can't, you know, So I've got to be a bit, a bit comfortable with uncertainty.

MG: I understand the sentiment that so many of those walking partners feel when they stop and you keep moving on that they wish they could join you. I think there's a lot of people who wish they would be right by your side. We'll talk again. In the meantime, walk well and stay safe and and take good care of yourself.

PAUL SALOPEK: Paul. Thank you so much, Matt. It's great to circle back now and again.

MG: Paul Salopek is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and fellow with National Geographic. He is the principal pilgrim of the Out of Eden Walk. We reached him, as you heard, in China. He is on a 35,000 kilometre walk just over 21,000 kilometres into it, and you can follow him through the National Geographic website and on social media as well. That is The Current for this Wednesday. q's up next on CBC Radio one, we're going to leave you today with some music that would fit nicely on a playlist for a long journey like the one Paul has been on. Joni Mitchell Refuge of the Roads I Matt Galloway Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll see you tomorrow.

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Wednesday January 25, 2023 Full Text Transcript