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The Current Transcript for May 2, 2023

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

GORDON LIGHTFOOT: I've never contrived a Canadian song, but it's the atmosphere of Canada during the songs, the fact that I'm a Canadian and that I dig Canada.

MATT GALLOWAY: For decades, Gordon Lightfoot chronicled this nation in songs like the Canadian Railroad Trilogy and The Wreck of The Edmund Fitzgerald. As you've been hearing, the iconic songwriter died last night. He was 84. Coming up, his friend and fellow musician Jim Cuddy of Blue Rodeo on the Canadian Tower of Song. That is in 30 minutes. Also this morning.

SOUNDCLIP

AAJU PETER: What are the values and what are the beliefs? What are the things that I want inside my head and not be dictated and run by somebody else? At my late age, I'm only learning that.

MG: The Inuk lawyer and activist Aaju Peter has spent her life fighting for Inuit rights, from protecting languages to defending the seal hunt. She was awarded the Order of Canada for her work, and that life is now the subject of the opening documentary of this year's Hot Docs Film Festival. In an hour, Aaju Peter on life in the North and why colonization is very much a living thing. We begin, though, in Ukraine with the deaths of two Canadians on the front lines. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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BAKHMUT

Guests: Paul Hughes, Walter Wood, Michael Bociurkiw

MG: Well, as you've been hearing, two Canadians have died in the battle for the city of Bakhmut in Ukraine. Kyle Porter of Calgary and Cole Zelenco of St. Catharine's, Ontario, were both serving as military volunteers with Ukraine's International Legion when they were killed late last week. The fighting in Bakhmut has been going on for months as the Ukrainian military tries to prevent a Russian takeover. Paul Hughes is one of the volunteers who is helping transport the remains of Kyle Porter. Paul is originally from Calgary and has been doing humanitarian work in Ukraine for more than a year, running an organization called Helping Ukraine Grassroots Support. Paul, hello. Hello, Paul.

PAUL HUGHES: Hello.

MG: Hi, it's Matt Galloway in Toronto. Thank you for taking time to talk to us.

PAUL HUGHES: Absolutely, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm okay. Where are you right now?

PAUL HUGHES: We're in, my son and I are in Kostantynivka right now.

MG: And how close is that to Bakhmut?

PAUL HUGHES: 15 ks away from Bakhmut.

MG: What is it like there right now? I mean, this has been the centre of a lot of fighting, is it? Tell me what's happening around there right now.

PAUL HUGHES: Oh, it's pretty tense. I'm in an area that’s a little bit quiet right now, but there's been lots of bombs in the background, But we're in a fairly safe location at the moment. We're just involved in a mission to recover the body of a Canadian fallen soldier.

MG: Tell me about being involved in this. You didn't know Kyle personally, but this is a really important task. Why is it important for you and your son to be there doing this?

PAUL HUGHES: Well, it's absolutely the very least that we can do to honour somebody who made the ultimate sacrifice and a fellow Canadian. We’re just doing everything we can to support the unit and honour the individual and honour the family and just to be Canadian. Like any Canadian would do this.

MG: What does that mean, just to be a Canadian?

PAUL HUGHES: Over here, it means everything. Canada has such an amazing reputation. We’re considered to be the second motherland. And there's so much respect here for Canada and we have so much respect for Ukraine. Bravest people in the world. And yeah, it means everything. You wear your flag on your heart every day proudly and go out and do the best you can for this country that is experiencing absolute atrocities on a daily basis.

MG: And so you've been there for a year or so, right? When you heard that there were a couple of fellow Canadians who had been killed on the front lines, what went through your mind?

PAUL HUGHES: It was just one of the saddest things that I've heard over here so far. There's been a few Canadians who’ve died here and some humanitarians. And it's just never good news here. We just thought about the individual and the sacrifice that they made for Ukraine and thought about the families and yeah. Sorry, I'm not more eloquent.

MG: No, it's really difficult, I'm sure. I mean, part of it is because you're there. And as you said, you may not have known these two people, these two men, but you feel like you're part of something together, right?

PAUL HUGHES: Oh, yeah. You feel like you’re brothers with somebody that you've never met before. So it's yeah. It's just… I guess I got to get going here, so I'm sorry that I have to cut this short. Take care, Matt.

MG: I'll let you go, Paul. Thanks for talking to us and stay safe and thanks again.

PAUL HUGHES: Yeah. Thank you, Matt. Thank you. Bye bye.

MG: Paul Hughes is a Canadian humanitarian worker in Kharkiv, Ukraine. Walter Wood is a retired Canadian armed Forces officer who spent time fighting in Ukraine last year as part of that International Legion, and that is where he met Cole Zelenco, one of the Canadians who died last week. Walter Wood is in Ottawa. Walter, good morning to you.

WALTER WOOD: Good morning, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm okay. Tell me about your impressions of Cole Zelenco when you met him when you were in Ukraine together.

WALTER WOOD: Yeah. I think I met Matt, sorry, Cole, it must have been April last year. He arrived at the same training camp that I did, and he seemed like a very effervescent, you know, hard charging Canadian young man. He always had a good sense of humour, but he looked like a total professional. He was one of the better soldiers that we had over there when I was there.

MG: And so what went through your mind when you heard that he and another Canadian, Kyle Porter, had died in the fighting in Bakhmut last week?

WALTER WOOD: Yeah, it's heartbreaking. And I really feel for the families of both Kyle and Cole. Unfortunately, we've lost dozens of soldiers, many killed, lots more wounded, of course, over in Ukraine. For even the short period of time I was over there, we formed bonds of brotherhood and fellowship that rival even my own experiences 36 years in the Canadian army. And it touches our hearts. I mean, I've had my friends that are still over there fighting contact me, and they're devastated by the loss. You know, I knew Cole personally. Unfortunately, I did not know Kyle, but both were very well loved by their colleagues over there.

MG: Can you just explain a little bit of what Canadians are actually doing there in Ukraine?

WALTER WOOD: So the International Legion essentially is volunteers, ex-military volunteers from, when I was there, it was about 50 nations represented from all over the world, from Japan to Colombia and Peru. And folks, I mean, we had our fair share of interesting characters, for sure. But the vast majority of the fellows that showed up, and it was mostly men and we had a few women, of course, you know, when we asked them why, why they were there, to a man, to a person, they all responded they were there to fight for freedom and democracy and to do what's right to support international rules respecting the sovereignty of nations. And we were also appalled by the egregious nature of Putin's regime in launching an invasion and the suffering that it was causing to the Ukrainian people. It's heartfelt, the number of, you know, hundreds, thousands of foreign volunteers that stepped forward to do their part to be good global citizens after all.

MG: And is that why you were there? I mean, you could imagine that people might ask you why somebody from Canada would be involved in a war that isn't our own in many ways. It's a war that Canada has supported in terms of the efforts from Ukraine to defend its territory. But it's not Canada's war, if I can put it that way. Why did you go?

WALTER WOOD: Well, I would argue, Matt, that it is our war. If you're like me and you support international rules based order respecting the sovereignty of nations and the right of nations to be free and choose for themselves the alliances and the economic agreements they choose to make, that's what it's about. From my 36 years serving Canada in the Canadian Forces, I mean, ultimately, certainly, it was focussed on protecting and defending Canada and Canadian interests. But overall, those interests are highly aligned with what I just said, I mean, respecting the international rules of order. And it sounds trite when you say it that you're over there fighting for freedom and democracy, but that's exactly what we were doing.

MG: We met a lot of those soldiers when we were there just in the days following the invasion, when Ukrainians were streaming out into countries like Poland. I met a lot of people in Poland who were heading over the border. Is your sense that a lot of people are still going over to support Ukraine a year plus into this?

WALTER WOOD: Yeah, I would expect that the numbers have dwindled. You know, those of us that rushed over there in the early part of the invasion in March last year, it was kind of like first responders rushing to a scene, right? And thank goodness the Ukrainians put up a stiff defence. And with a little bit of assistance from foreign volunteers and with all the material support that the Western countries or global countries are providing to Ukraine, it allowed Ukrainians to sort of catch their breath and put up a stiff resistance and in fact even fight back to gain some ground. So I would expect that the numbers have dropped. You know, the rush of volunteers isn't quite the same as what it was in the initial phase of the invasion last year, but I know that the folks are still showing up to do their part. And I can tell you I have friends in the Legion who even though they've been wounded and had a chance to recover, have volunteered to go back to the front. Some of them have been wounded multiple times and they still believe in the cause and are trying to do what they can.

MG: What have they told you and what have you learned through your organization that helps support international fighters about just how difficult the conditions are on the ground a year into this war?

WALTER WOOD: Yeah. I mean, what's going on right now in Bakhmut where unfortunately Cole and Kyle, you know, were killed, it is absolutely a hell there. You can just bring back anything, any movies you’ve seen on TV that represent the horrors of war, and you're probably getting pretty close to what those fellows are going through. I myself did not serve in such a spot. I was deployed east of Kharkiv. Right after the initial push out of Kharkiv, it was rather stable. We were getting hit by artillery every day pretty good. And we did lose some people to that artillery fire, but it was nothing like what the fellows are going through in the Bakhmut area and likely other places along that front.

MG: What would you want Canadians to know about the work that you're doing, but also the work that, to your point, fellow Canadians are involved in there?

WALTER WOOD: Yeah. Well, I tell you, Matt, I don't think, I mean, it's nice to see the announcements from the government to do more. It's fantastic to see Canadians that are opening up their cheque books and doing what they can to provide material support and donations to all the great causes, including the resettlement of refugees. But I think we could do more. And if we really believe that this is an affront to our way of life and it is, then I believe we really ought to do more. I think Canada, I mean, there's lots of different interests and different responsibilities for the government, but I think there's a lot more we can do and as individual Canadians to pay attention to this. It's not going away any time soon, unfortunately. And if we don't stand up to bullies like the Putin regime, what does that say of us? Does it not weaken our resolve to, you know, doing what's right for the world? And that concerns me. So I think there's a lot more that we can do.

MG: Walter, thanks for this. Glad to talk to you.

WALTER WOOD: Okay. Thank you, Matt.

MG: Walter Wood is a retired Canadian Armed Forces officer who spent time fighting in Ukraine last year. He was part of that International Legion. Michael Bociurkiw is a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, global affairs analyst and a Canadian based in Odesa, Ukraine. Michael, hello to you.

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW: Hello, Matt. Good to be with you again.

MG: Good to have you back on the program. First, what do you make of what Walter has said about why Canadians are there in Ukraine fighting, that he says this is in many ways our war?

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW: Oh, I absolutely agree with him. He was excellent. This really is our war. You know, I have a strong feeling that if Mr. Putin is not pushed back now, sooner or later, he will be on our own doorstep. And I don't mean, you know, physical presence, but what I do mean by that, the economic toll that it could take on our economy, but also engaging in things like disinformation, manipulation, trying to rig elections, that sort of thing. So as the previous guest said, if we do really stand for a rules based international order, now is the time to give Ukraine everything it needs to push back Mr. Putin and his forces. And it of course is coming at a very, very high human toll, as seen with the death of these two Canadians and others. But we have to give everything it takes, give Ukraine the muscle to push him back.

MG: What does the deaths of these two Canadians tell you about the kind of fighting that is going on in that part of Ukraine right now?

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW: Sure. Well, aside from it being very heartbreaking, my thoughts and prayers are with them and their families, is that Bakhmut has become one of the most recognizable symbols of the conflict. It's a place where, I wrote in a recent CNN opinion piece, I called it a place where a once beautiful town, one of the most picturesque places in eastern Ukraine has been replaced with blood drenched killing fields. And, you know, it's really also a place where Russia has displayed its meat grinder approach of fighting, where the Wagner Group has deployed something like, well, actually a few thousand of its members to fight. And they're taking a huge toll as well. Russian losses are said to be about five soldiers to every Ukrainian. Yeah, it's a horrible, horrible fight. But on the other hand, the Ukrainians are really showing what they're made of. They're standing up to these thugs, to these war criminals in a very, very impressive way that has I think, you know, really ignited the emotions of people worldwide.

MG: What is significant about this city in particular?

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW: Well, you know, from a military point of view, I and a lot of other military analysts agree that it doesn't hold much military value. But because the Russian gains have been so few, you know, since, for example, the taking of Mariupol, they have to show their own population, Putin has to show his own domestic population that there are some gains happening. And, you know, this would also be a way for them to feed the news cycle back home to placate some of the Russian war bloggers who have been critical of the Russian armed forces. And then for Ukraine, not so much. I think, you know, the Ukrainian side, the big difference is they value human life. And when things get intolerable in terms of losses, they do pull back and they'll concentrate their resources in other areas along the frontline.

MG: Is your sense that Ukraine is making any advances in this area right now? Because Russian forces control most of Bakhmut at this point.

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW: Right. There are cities nearby where the Ukrainians have a very major military presence. I've seen these places when I was with the OSC back in 2014, 2015. So those are the areas that they're going to want to protect. And a lot of the kind of speculation now is that Ukraine is being very strategic in terms of deployment of resources for the expected spring counteroffensive. But, you know, Matt, I can't say it enough, is that, you know, as your previous guest alluded to, given our ties with Ukraine, Canada needs to give Ukraine everything it's asking for militarily. And that includes the ability to close its own skies to incoming Russian missiles, as well as giving Ukraine the capability to strike legitimate military targets within Russia. Because aside from what's going on on the frontline that we've been talking about, there are missiles striking civilian populations in cities across Ukraine. We've had that happen in the past week. So this has to stop. The toll is very, very great.

MG: If Canada were to sanction not just a no fly zone, but Ukraine striking inside Russia's borders, I mean, how does that not spiral into a much larger war? That's the fear that people have had since this part of the invasion. And does that not legitimize those fears that this becomes, you know, a much larger conflict?

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW: Sure. I know that argument is there, Matt. But, you know, I just finished a tour of Canada and the United States and not once, not once did I hear any pushback to that argument because I think people realize what Mr. Putin and his elite circle are made of, that they have no respect for that rules based international order, and that they will continue to do harm in various ways. And Matt, if I can, I also wanted to say, you know, I've said this before probably on this program and elsewhere, that I've been very disappointed with Canada's initial response. And there are also symbolic things we can do aside from aiding Ukraine militarily. For example, expelling Russian diplomats from Canada. Hundreds have been expelled from Europe. Canada has not expelled one since the full scale invasion began. And I don't think Russian diplomats being sent to Ottawa are exactly Boy Scouts. Look at their Twitter feed. They do this, engage in disinformation. And one more quick thing. I was shocked when I was in Warsaw recently. I went to the Canadian embassy, and unlike all of the embassies around it, the U.S., French, Greek and Polish government buildings, they're all covered with Ukrainian flags, with symbols of support. The Canadian embassy is bare. There's nothing there. And if we are in a brotherhood, if we can put it that way, with Ukraine, I think we have to show that symbolically because what are Canadian, sorry, what are Ukrainian refugee claimants supposed to think when they go to the Canadian embassy? They see all of this around them and then there's nothing on our own building. So symbolism is very important.

MG: We're just about out of time. We just have a few seconds left. Is your sense that that support, international support is softening for Ukraine?

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW: I believe it is. But again, we can't scream loudly enough, those of us who are here who have analyzed it so quickly, that now is the time to give Ukraine the muscle it needs to push back Putin's forces. And again, that means ability to close their skies, but also to give the Ukrainians the ability to strike those targets where those Russian missiles are coming from and causing huge deaths on the civilian side.

MG: Michael, we'll leave it there, but I'm sure we'll talk again. Thank you very much.

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW: You bet. My pleasure.

MG: Michael Bociurkiw is a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council and global affairs analyst. He's based in Odesa, Ukraine. Your CBC News is next. And then, he has been called a rare talent by Bob Dylan. He was an international star, but his songs painted a picture of this country and helped define our identity. We will spend the next part of our program talking about the influence and legacy of Gordon Lightfoot. He died last night. His music continues, and you'll hear, among others, Jim Cuddy of Blue Rodeo who grew up playing that music talk about Gordon Lightfoot the man and the musical icon. That’s coming your way in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio and the CBC Listen app. Stick around.

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GORDON LIGHTFOOT OBIT

Guests: Jim Cuddy, Nicholas Jennings

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, embracing Inuit culture both in Europe and Canada and the story of how both continents shaped one indigenous activist's identity. That's coming up in half an hour. But first, remembering a Canadian legend.

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GORDON LIGHTFOOT: When I was five years old, I went to Sunday school. They had a concert. I practiced and four or five of us got out and did a tune. I did I’m a Little Tipper. I mean, how obvious can it be? But the part that really got to me was after we get done, one of the Sunday school teachers got up and she said, I want the rest of you children to listen to what I have to say. They did the best with what they had. And that's what you're going to do all your life. Do the best with what you’ve got. And it never, ever left me. That's the one thing that never left me, was do the best with what you’ve got. I'm 52 years old and I'm still working. And for that, I'm quite grateful.

MG: Gordon Lightfoot went on to work, to sing, to perform and to record for three more decades. He was the northern voice of a generation bringing Canada and a distinct Canadian identity to the world stage. Gordon Lightfoot, as you've been hearing, died yesterday at the age of 84. He came out of the legendary Yorkville scene in Toronto in the 1960s, toured for more than half a century, even after an aneurysm and a stroke that made it hard for him to use his right hand to play guitar. He was a legend. Jim Cuddy is a Canadian legend himself, frontman for the great Canadian band Blue Rodeo. Jim, good morning.

JIM CUDDY: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What went through your mind when you heard about Gordon's death?

JIM CUDDY: Well, I don't think anybody thought he was going to last forever. I mean, he's already been dead once, So I think everybody knew that the clock was ticking for Gordon, but yet still a shock. I mean, I just feel like he leaves a big hole, a hole in my life and a hole in Canadian life.

MG: Do you remember the first time you heard his music?

JIM CUDDY: Well, it goes way back for me because when I first got a guitar when I was 10 years old, I guess living in Montreal, the first book I got was a Gordon Lightfoot book. I mean, he was popular and absurdly, I learned That's What You Get For Loving Me. So, you know, it’s easy chords. And it's funny to think of a 10-year-old singing that song. But that was the first time I was intimately involved with his music, But I knew who he was all along. He represented everything I admired about guitar playing. That's what I wanted to be. I looked at him and I looked at Dylan and I looked at Kris Christopherson. Those guys are the coolest guys next to cowboys that I've ever met, ever seen, sorry, haven’t met yet.

MG: What was it about what he was doing and what Dylan and Kris Kristofferson were doing that to you was kind of like, you know, the giant pulsing light that you had to kind of get toward?

JIM CUDDY: It was the power of that single voice. I remember being in the backyard of my house in Montreal, and my brother's friend played It's All Over Now, Baby Blue. And I was just shocked. I was shocked at how one voice, one guitar, how beautiful, how powerful and how it just stopped me in my tracks. So those guys represented, you know, the world version of that. And also, I thought they were cool. I thought they just looked cool. The buckskin jackets and the guitar case, I thought every part of it was cool.

MG: What does a 10-year-old think of a song, I mean, aside from learning how to play the chords, think of the lyrics of a tune like That's What You Get For Lovin Me.

JIM CUDDY: Matt, I really never thought about it. I didn't know anything about love. I just thought it was a great song. And I liked the way he sang from the back of his throat. And, you know, my voice had even changed that I was singing in this kind of choirboy voice. But no, I never. I never thought about the lyrics until Much, much later.

MG: I mean, what he was writing about at that time, There was, you know, a melancholy to it and a very defined emotion that runs through those early records and later on as well, but certainly those early records. Did that shape what you ended up doing?

JIM CUDDY: I think so. I think there was a sweetness to the melancholy in his voice. I mean, I don't think, you know, as much as Gord tried to write some happy songs, that voice just gave them a little shade of melancholy. That's just what he did. And to a certain extent, that's what I discovered in my own voice. And so yeah, I think that was a guidance for me as well.

MG: Nick Jennings says that in many ways, he personified Canada. And you think about what he wrote about. How do you see, and I ask you this as somebody who has a place very, you know, deep in this country’s songwriting, history and mythology, how do you see his place in the story of this country, in the stories that we tell about ourselves?

JIM CUDDY: I think that he has a very obvious songwriting place that he wrote about his own life. And he always said, I mean, I even read it today, that he's been everywhere in the world and he found no place more beautiful than Aurelia and Muskoka. And I think that his character gave us all this guidance about being Canadian and not being embarrassed by being Canadian. There was nothing secondary about being Canadian. It was actually an enormous plus to be from this beautiful country where all this, you know, with all this diversity of landscape and people. And then I think, you know, for us, Greg and I came back from New York having pursued all that crap in New York, and we came back to Gordon Lightfoot's World. And there was something unique about Gordon's character that he was resolutely himself. You know, the first time we ever met Gord was at the Stein Valley Benefit at B.C. trying to save an old growth forest. Big event put together by David Suzuki, and we played on it. Gord was a highly anticipated headliner, and the first thing he said when he came on the stage was, you know, the loggers got to eat too. And it was a shocking thing to say at an environmental benefit. And I think a lot of times that Dave didn't remember me at all. And then as we went on and we had more to do with Gord we realized he was always himself. He was a huge celebrity. He just was a man on the street and we were really inspired by just seeing him drive around in his big New Yorker car and thought, yeah, we can do that. We don't have to be anybody else. We can just be ourselves.

MG: What was it like to play with him? As the kid who, you know, got that book when you were 10 and you learned those songs, when you finally not just met him, but got to know him and got to play with him, what was that like?

JIM CUDDY: I think that, you know, I think that one of the greatest benefits of my music career has been to be able to call somebody like Gordon Lightfoot but exactly Gordon Lightfoot a friend. I mean, you know, Gordon would call. He would call with things he was wondering about. I remember he came to see my first solo show at Massey Hall and called me the next day. He said, you got two bands. How do you do that? One band's hard. How do you do two? And we would just chat. He went to the same church as my mother. You know, like my mother. I think that I was never unaware that I was grateful that because I had a music career, I knew Gordon Lightfoot.

MG: It's obvious in many ways, but Massey Hall was like his other home. The house that Gord built, they called it. And he played there and played there and played there and played there so many times. And you'd see him, even if he wasn't playing, you'd see him in the seats to see other people play. What do you think that that hall meant to him?

JIM CUDDY: First of all, I think Gordon Lightfoot really liked Toronto. He loved Toronto. He had a house in Rosedale until he moved. But he had that house in Rosedale. He had this life in Toronto. He loved it. He thought it was a big city. And Massey Hall was the concert hall in Toronto. So I don't think it ever lost its shine for Gordon. And then I think that the relationship he built up with his audience by playing, I mean, I remember when we first signed with Warner, I think he was doing 20 dates in a month or something like that. Maybe it wasn’t. Maybe it was 15 or 10 or so. It was a lot. And those were really special events. And, you know, I saw Gordon in all his different incarnations, when he was, you know, middle aged and strong and after he came out of his medical problem 10 to 12 years ago, when he closed Massey Hall, when he came back and opened it. And every time, even though he had diminished strength, every time, there was something that just blew me away. You know, the one time I saw him when he closed Massey Hall, he did a version of If You Could Read My Mind and everybody gave him a standing ovation at the end of the song. And it was just the power of the song. And that's amazing. As a songwriter, you think, wow, you hope you have a song like that.

MG: Did he ever get on you for, I mean, it seems like Blue Rodeo, you must have played there almost as much as he has or pretty close to as many times as he has. Did he ever say you try to close in on his record or anything like that?

JIM CUDDY: There's a race for number two. Nobody will ever catch Gordon. He's like at 76. The rest of us are hovering around 40, so we'd have to live a long time. I mean, he did so many dates here. You know, the things that he would get on you is like we did a cover of Go Go Round. And I can't remember whether he thought it was too fast or too slow, but it was tuning and tempo. He was an absolute mathematician about those things. I think we did it too fast. Anyway, we were supposed to do the Railroad Trilogy with him one time, Blue Rodeo. It was supposed to be a special event. And he called me up and he said, you know, it's going to be hard for your drummer. It starts at 88, moves to 112 and then comes back to 92. You think he can do that? Now, those are really precise beats per minute. He didn't mean 89 instead of 88, he meant 88. And I thought it was just great. I just told Glen, like if we do this, you're going to have to get these, you have to nail these tempos.

MG: Otherwise he's going to be looking at you. He'll know.

JIM CUDDY: Oh, he'll know. He will know.

MG: Let me just ask you a couple of quick things before I let you go. One is, I mean, you mentioned the various parts of his career, the fact that yes, people thought he was dead. He came back and continued to play. What does that longevity tell you about what's possible from a songwriter as they get older?

JIM CUDDY: I think that songwriters and musicians don't think about that at all. The question always comes, how long do you think you're going to be doing this?

MG: Yeah.

JIM CUDDY: Well, Gordon died with the tour dates on the schedule that he had to make up because he got sick. And I think that musicians keep playing because they love playing. Gordon loved playing. He had the songs. He had an audience. And I think that, you know, we're certainly well on, Blue Rodeo, well on in our career. We're well past our expiration date. So I think it's the same for everybody. You do what you love. Gordon did what he loved. He did it in exactly the way he wanted to do it. And that in itself is inspiring.

MG: We're all kind of going through the playlists and going through the records, figuring out what we want to listen to. Tonight, when you sit down, if you were to put on one of his tunes, what would you hear?

JIM CUDDY: Well, when I heard this morning, I'm actually in Spain. This morning was when I first found out. So I went out and I just walked around the town in Seville. I walked around the town listening to Sun Down. I just love that song. And I just listened to it a couple of times, got a little weepy and, you know, carried on.

MG: Jim, it's really good of you to do this. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much.

JIM CUDDY: I appreciate the opportunity. Thanks, Matt.

MG: Jim Cuddy, singer songwriter, of course, with Blue Rodeo. Nicholas Jennings wrote Gordon Lightfoot's biography. But by that point, they had already been friends for a long time. He was at Gordon Lightfoot house three weeks ago before leaving for a trip to Portugal. And we have reached Nicholas Jennings in Lisbon. Nicholas, good morning to you.

NICHOLAS JENNINGS: Hello, Matt.

MG: What was that last visit like with Gordon?

NICHOLAS JENNINGS: Oh, it was bittersweet. I told him that, I said, Gordon, you've been through a lot worse than this. You're going to pull through. I'm back on May 14th, and we'll get together after that. We'll take our wives to dinner like we've done before. And I said that, Matt, with sort of a hopefulness because actually just looking at him, I could tell he was, I think he was just a little too weak to ever pull out of it. And so I sort of knew in my heart that it was probably the last time I was going to see him.

MG: When did you first meet him?

NICHOLAS JENNINGS: I think the first time I met him, Matt, was backstage at Massey Hall. Bernie Finkelstein and Bernie Fiedler were doing shows there for any artist that had outgrown the riverboat where I started out working in the kitchen. They had me work in the backstage, doing the hospitality, putting out drinks and snacks for the artists. And, you know, of course, Gordon was a regular at Massey Hall already at that point. And I was setting up the drinks and I met him there in the backstage area and, you know, said hello, hello, Gordon, and shook his hand and, you know. And I was in awe of him. I mean, I'd be playing his songs like Jim was just talking about, you know, as a kid.

MG: What did he mean to you? What did he mean to you when you started playing those songs? I mean, for so many people, he loomed larger than life. I mean, you'd see him around Toronto, you'd see him at those venues, but he was also an icon. What did he mean to you growing up?

NICHOLAS JENNINGS: Well, I think I first became aware of him like a lot of people in the year of Canada's centennial and, you know, the year of Canadian railroad trilogy. I mean, he was the one, he sort of came of age as Canada came of age. And he really put, you know, he put Canada on the world stage. And so in that year and the years thereafter, I just knew he was sort of like, he was like Captain Canada to me. I mean, he was as big a hero to me as Frank Mahovlich of the Toronto Maple Leafs was.

MG: The first line of your obituary for the Globe and Mail this morning says that he personified Canada. What did this country mean to him, do you think?

NICHOLAS JENNINGS: Well, I think Canada was the best There was. I mean, I do believe he spent probably, you know, more time touring the U.S. than he ever did Canada. But I think he knew that Canada was something special. And, you know, he knew it from growing up in the countryside in Orillia and he knew it from taking those marathon canoe rides through the Canadian north. He knew it from sailing on the Great Lakes. I mean, he was an avid sailor. And, you know, he named one of his sailboats Sundown and the other golden goose. And I mean, he just cherished the Canadian outdoors. And he knew that capturing it in song was something that needed to be done. I mean, he'd already been cast in the role of a sort of chronicler when the CBC commissioned him to write Canadian Railroad Trilogy. And he researched that book like he was studying for a master's degree. He read every book that had been written on the building of Canada's railway in order to get it right. He was a perfectionist, Matt. So like I say, he already had that role foisted upon him in a way or he willingly took it on as a chronicler. And he carried on doing that. And it was about the great beauty of the Canadian outdoors, you know, pussy willows, cat tails, I mean, just describing Canadian nature, you know, the furs, the timber, you know. I mean, it was I think just something that he felt he was compelled to do.

MG: He was seen in such high regard by his peers. I mean, there's that great quotation from Bob Dylan who said, every time I hear a song of his, I wish it would last forever. And yet, as you say in the obituary and as Jim just said, I mean, he was always himself. You say that he never lost touch with his small town roots. How did he stay himself?

NICHOLAS JENNINGS: Well, I think it was in his bones. I mean, I do think he was deeply humble. I mean, it wasn't an affectation. I mean, I saw the surprise on his face. The numerous times I'd interview him, I'd tell him about what someone had said about him and sort of his eyes would wine and go, really? You know, he didn't know how great he was. And that was genuine. He was just I think an honest, humble, small town guy. I mean, and, you know, he grew up in a family where his father was incredibly hard working. And he learned that work ethic from his father who ran the dry cleaning business in Orillia. And, you know, we heard that clip of him earlier on that you do the best you can. You know, you put in a good, good hard day's work. And the other thing that I learned about Gordon in all the times I interviewed him is just how he wrestled with responsibility. Like it weighed on him. You know, this is on a very personal side. I mean, he took on the role of a father, husband, brother, I mean, all of those things and an employer, you know, because he kept his band, as many people know, he kept his band on retainer so that they were taken care of even when they weren't working. And, you know, he regarded that as his duty, you know, like his father did with his employees at the dry cleaning business, you know, And he took all those things very, very seriously. But oh my God, I saw Gord sometimes just sort of wracked with the pressures of balancing all those responsibilities with the creative life and, you know, how do I come up with another 10 songs for the next album? And yet he did because he would just nail his butt to the chair and force himself to write another 10 songs. And believe me, it wasn't easy for him. He was such a perfectionist that he would work and rework the words and the chord changes until he got it just right. I mean, he had a lot of unfinished songs. Maybe one day, we're going to hear some of those songs in there raw form, you know, because he wrote a lot more than were ever released. And it's only because of the high standards that he held himself to that we haven't heard them to this day.

MG: Just before I let you go, I mean, again, this is the question that I asked Jim Cuddy. When you sit down tonight and you put a record on, how will you remember him?

NICHOLAS JENNINGS: I'll remember him, Matt, as someone who could tell an incredibly personal, compelling story and make it universal, like just something that anyone can relate to. You know, his romantic ballads are every bit as powerful storytelling as those historical epics of his or those ones describing the grandeur of the Canadian wilderness. He just had the knack and he worked at it to come up with songs that were both personal and could touch other people.

MG: I can't think of anyone better to talk to about him and his influence than you. You wrote the book on him and you knew him for so many years. And so I'm really glad that you would take the chance to speak with us. Nicholas, thank you so much.

NICHOLAS JENNINGS: You're welcome. It's a pleasure.

MG: Nicholas Jennings wrote Gordon Lightfoot's biography. He was in Lisbon, Portugal.

[Song: “Sundown” by Gordon Lightfoot]

MG: Gordon Lightfoot and Sundown. Q will have much more on the legacy of Gordon Lightfoot coming up. Tom Power and Elamin Abdelmahmoud co-hosting a 90 minute special. You'll hear Anne Murray, Murray McLaughlin and others reflecting on the legacy of Gordon Lightfoot. That's just after us here on CBC Radio One. Coming up after your regional update, the story of nearly losing touch with your culture and coming back to it. An Inuk artist and activist’s journey now on the big screen. That's coming up in 90 seconds.

[Music: Theme]

AAJU PETER

Guest: Aaju Peter

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

AAJU PETER: I was thinking to write a book. I was born in Greenland and colonized by the Danes, and then I moved to the Canadian Arctic and being colonized by Southern Canada. So our history has been written by outsiders and visitors. I want to write our own history. I wanted to title it Twice Colonized. I thought all those experiences and influences, I wanted to explain them because that's what we are. And as colonized peoples, how do we wrap our head around it?

MG: Well, it's not a book yet, but Twice Colonized is now a documentary. That voice you heard is Aaju Peter. She is a lawyer, activist, artist and musician focussed on keeping Inuit culture alive and fighting for indigenous rights. And this film follows her from her childhood in Greenland and her life in Iqaluit to the world stage. Aaju Peter is with me in studio. Good morning.

AAJU PETER: Good morning.

MG: Congratulations on this film.

AAJU PETER: Thank you.

MG: What is it like to see your story on a giant screen?

AAJU PETER: It’s strange. I think it's almost like an out of body experience. You're looking at yourself from the outside. Very strange.

MG: What did it mean to you to be able to tell your own story in this way?

AAJU PETER: I think I'm learning every time. Now, we were just in Copenhagen in Denmark, meeting my foster sister and mother and family. I think every time I go back, the puzzle gets made because of the experience. I had so much trauma from that shock I couldn't remember anything. So every time I go back, I'm learning bits and pieces. But 50 years later, I feel much better now about it.

MG: Can you tell me about that experience? You were born in Greenland.

AAJU PETER: Yeah.

MG: Sent to school in Denmark.

AAJU PETER: Yeah.

MG: You were 11 when you were sent to school.

AAJU PETER: Yeah.

MG: What do you remember about that?

AAJU PETER: It was exciting. It's like telling kids, school children, if you do really well, we're going to send you to Disney, Disney World. You can win the prize, so you can go to the moon. It's something that we looked forward to do because it was going to be only three months experiencing and seeing what we were reading about. All our books were in Danish. It was about apples and cows and trees. To me, it was very exciting. But then you're only 11 years old. And my father wanted me to continue my education in Denmark because we all want our children to be well educated. We all want to have a good education. But in my case, in our case, we had to sacrifice not knowing our language, that wasn't taught to us, and then our connection to country and family and our culture.

MG: What do you see, I mean, it seems obvious in some ways, but from your perspective, what do you see as a parallel between that experience and the residential school experience here in Canada?

AAJU PETER: Well, it was that attitude, the outsider coming in, I know better and I know what's best for you attitude, where we lost our war, we had to sacrifice our language, our culture, our connection, our identity to something that we were taught to aspire to, something we had to be from an outsider's perspective. You are not good enough, you are not white enough, you are not tall enough. All those things, that's the parallel.

MG: You say in the film that you don't like speaking Danish now because in some ways, it's a part of that continuing trauma.

AAJU PETER: Yeah.

MG: What does that mean to you, I mean, that language now?

AAJU PETER: It was hard for me when I started going back after decades, going back to talk in Denmark. It was hard for me to re-remember that language. So when I was being filmed five years ago, Rasmus was asking me those questions and I said, it's really painful for me to speak in Danish. But now coming back to do the screening in Denmark, everybody spoke to me in English because they had seen that clip and they didn't want to talk to me in Danish. And I said, you can talk to me in Danish now. I'm over it now. I think I had to grow over the past 50 years. I had to do the personal growth and forgiving and forgiving myself for not being able to speak my own language and not knowing. I blamed myself all those years. But now, I have a better forgiveness, understanding that I don't need to blame myself and I can speak Danish without getting so upset.

MG: One of the things that brings up, I mean, and this comes up a few different times in the film, is this idea that colonization is a living thing, that it's not something that happens in the past, but it's something that is still…

AAJU PETER: Yeah.

MG: How do you see that? How do you see the living element of that idea of colonization?

AAJU PETER: Because in Greenlandic, the term is [speaks language], the land is taken over, the land is run or taken over by somebody else, an outsider. It wasn't that long ago I realized it was not just the land and the furniture and how the houses built, it's you internalize it. Your whole mind, your every cell, everything inside is colonized. And that was amazing for me to realize that. When we were taking law, we were studying property law, we were studying terminology that is strange to the traditional Inuit way of living. You're trying to clear your mind of where is this idea coming from? Who is imposing this way of thinking, this way of being, who is imposing that? Where does it come from? We have internalized so much that has been imposed on us.

MG: What was it that brought you to Iqaluit?

AAJU PETER: I think now that I think of it, it was not a clear picture. Now I think of it as I didn't want to be a failure. I didn't want to not know my own language. I didn't want people to say, you're not Greenlandic because you don't speak the language. I wasn't woman enough to stand up to that and fight it and say, no, I'm Greenlandic. I'm going to learn my language and I'll show you. I think it was easier for me to move away from that, what for me felt so toxic. And here I had been away sacrificing my land, my country, my language for a better education. But then you come back and you're treated like that. I didn't take well to it. So when I moved to the Canadian Arctic, I was allowed to not know the language, which was fantastic for me.

MG: Allowed to not know the language.

AAJU PETER: Because I was from Greenland, of course, I don't know the Inuit language even though their same language, different dialects. Every word I was learning and everything I was learning how to do was cherished because I was learning.

MG: It feels like you have, I mean, just obviously, in the work that you've done, we'll talk about that in a moment, but what you see in the film is it feels like you have a very deep connection with that place now, the Canadian Arctic.

AAJU PETER: Yeah.

MG: Like that it's right in you. Do you know what I mean?

AAJU PETER: Yeah. When we were doing the documentary on tattoos, I had to choose. Do I choose the Canadian Inuit tattoos or do I choose the Greenlandic ones? And I chose the Canadian Inuit tattoos because that's what the elders were talking about. That's what the elders were showing. And in Greenland, the memory was so lost. Yeah. And I feel much more comfortable, I think, in Inuktitut because of the way it was taught to me and the kindness of the Inuit. So warm and loving compared to the attitude that I felt when I tried to relearn my own language in Greenland. That attitude of you are not good enough, you can’t do it. Yeah.

MG: When did you learn that you could find the strength to be a fighter, to be an activist, to be a lawyer, to be somebody who stood up for culture?

AAJU PETER: You fall into it. It's your circumstance. Things happen in your life where you're born with no, this is not right. For me, the injustice is just not just. I used to think legislation was just. But then I realized when the Europeans were banning the import of seal that legislation is not necessarily always just. And I don't see anything that can stop me. I have to go for it. I just have to try to correct it. I can't help it. I think I was born like this.

MG: Is there somebody or something that not gave you permission, but kind of was that shining light for you that said, oh yeah, you can do this? I mean, to your point, you were born into it, but it's not a natural thing in some ways.

AAJU PETER: I think it was quite natural for me because I was so curious. But I think during my childhood, having to go fishing for my siblings and going to the store and steal food so that I could feed them, that sense of I'm going to defend you and I'll look after you kind of attitude. And it just evolved when I moved to the Canadian Arctic, when I would see the Europeans or others trying to take the food away from people. I still had that attitude.

MG: This is a really personal film as well. And I mean, there are elements of your own life that are really painful to watch, let alone I'm sure have captured. And I want to talk about a couple of them. But just broadly, when the filming was happening, were you comfortable in just letting people in to that part of your life, to just being as open as you possibly could be?

AAJU PETER: I think that's a challenge we all have. You feel much more comfortable when you're around people who are not pretending to be somebody, who are not pretending. I also wanted the producer, Lynn, to film, I demanded, you have to film all the good and all the bad and everything in between. I don't want to be only seen as going to Europe and protests. I don't want to be only seen as paragliding in Mexico and doing my yoga. Those are all nice things, right? But as indigenous women, I think as indigenous peoples, we have to do 200% better every day. And we go through all the hardships because of our families, because of things that are happening, because we need to spread ourselves around so much. I wanted to absolutely be truthful, to show I have so many faults, but that doesn't stop me. You can still do good things and an advocate even if you're going through a hard time.

MG: There's a real generosity in that, in being that open. Can I ask you about a couple of the specific things that come up in the film? One is about your son. As this filming is underway, you lose your son to suicide.

AAJU PETER: Yeah.

MG: And you talk in the film about him and about the grief that you as a mother, this unimaginable grief that you're feeling. Can you tell us a little bit about him?

AAJU PETER: It was a shock. I was shocked when I heard. I just knew I didn't want to change the film when his cousin told me that it was an accident. They were climbing and he fell, but the police translated it to this is another prejudice. His Inuit, of course he killed himself. My baby was, he’s my baby. He’s the youngest. His named after my mother's father. And when I left my husband in 94, I would be driving the dam truck building the breakwater. And he was always with me in the cockpit here because I didn't have a babysitter. And then when I was going to school, Inuit studies, our elders used to say, well, he's the youngest student here because in those days, I could bring my son to go to school because I didn't have a babysitter. His gorgeous. He loved singing. He can do everything. But I think when you lose somebody, all the good things, you pick out all the good features, all the good talents, all the wonderful moments. Just before I went to Denmark, I went to a book launch, and the book title was I Will Live for the Two of Us. This Inuk woman, 74 years old, had been fighting mines, had been fighting in industrial development, but found out that her sibling, her older sibling had been left to die because those were the times when infanticide would happen. And she said, I will live for the two of us, and she accomplished so much and is still accomplishing so much. And that's how I turned Kaalinnguaq’s death. I will live for the two of us. I'll do all these things so that life could be rich and wonderful for the two of us.

MG: That's really powerful.

AAJU PETER: It is.

MG: I mean, it gives you, not that you don't have purpose already, you are driven more than most, but I mean, that gives you a different sense of purpose in some ways.

AAJU PETER: Well, all those wonderful people that we know who pass on and I know so many. My son is running an orchestra up there because when I can't recruit out, I say, okay, you guys figure it out. I'm done. So it's like having allies who are more wherever they are. And they are not limited to our little brain. We are so limited in our thinking. We need to be more open.

MG: One of the other really difficult moments in the film is you talking about your abusive partner, a man who like literally held you down and cut your hair off.

AAJU PETER: Yeah.

MG: And there's a moment in the film in which he calls you and you ask the camera crew to keep recording as you put him on speaker and talk to him. Why did you do that? That's again, one of those moments where I think a lot of people would run from that vulnerability and you didn't. Why did you do that?

AAJU PETER: I think because of the hardships and lack of parenting, I didn't know how to be an adult. I didn't know how to raise my children. I didn't know how to be a partner. I saw a lot of abuse when my father would beat my mother. So I didn't see anything loving. I didn't have an example to follow. Mind you, my Danish families were loving and kind and they didn't abuse each other. But there's a term for it. We function together. We dysfunction together because we support each other in our dysfunction. I forget the term. And I think that's what it is. And I am still with the guy, but I drank so much for five years that I made myself very vulnerable. It's not an excuse at all, but it doesn't excuse the abuse, but I'm just as bad in that relationship as my partner is.

MG: That's quite something to say.

AAJU PETER: Oh yeah. Everybody knows I'm not. I can be very kind and very nice, but I can also be very nasty.

MG: How do experiences like that, I mean, a lot of this film is about how one comes to terms with trauma and then how one moves through that trauma.

AAJU PETER: Yeah.

MG: How do those sorts of experiences shape who you are now, do you think?

AAJU PETER: You get more compassion. You get more empathy. I didn't know how it felt to have lost a child. I couldn't. And there's so much of that in our territory and also with indigenous peoples. Everybody knows somebody who has passed away. Everybody knows families who have lost. And I had to go through that, unfortunately. But now I have more empathy, more compassion, more understanding. You become more generous, I think, emotionally and as a human being when you go through that.

MG: I mean, it speaks to the title of the film, that idea of being twice colonized in some ways.

AAJU PETER: Yeah.

MG: What does decolonization mean to you? This is a word that gets thrown around a lot, and it means different things to different people. What does it mean to you?

AAJU PETER: To me, it would be figuring out what is it that I want. What are the values and what are the beliefs? What are the things that I want inside my head and not be dictated and run by somebody else? At my late age, I'm only learning that. I used to just go with the ways and just go where I'm told. I'm now finally figuring out and learning from the elders, not only Inuit elders, but other indigenous elders, what life truly is and what you should value. When I was taking law, the law program, and we had First Nations professors, law professors, and they would talk about all the atrocities and all the hardship that their people had gone through. And they were saying it very calmly, very lovingly, without being angry and very loud. And then I learned, well, it's not what they did. They don't need to own it. They didn't force loss of language and death of children and residential schooling. That was imposed on them. Somebody else did that to them and it belongs to those people.

MG: So they don't need to own the anger. That anger is for somebody else.

AAJU PETER: That was an excellent way of being. I don't own this shit. It belongs to somebody else and I don't have to carry it. Really nice.

MG: There's a question that you ask in the film, which is is it possible to change the world and mend your own wounds at the same time?

AAJU PETER: Yeah.

MG: Did you learn the answer to that?

AAJU PETER: I think so. And I think we cannot stop one until we get better, until life becomes wonderful. That will never happen. So we have to learn both. We have to try to do both or multiple things at the same time. And I think it just makes us stronger. And I think with age, you get more patient with yourself and you become kinder to yourself. So you can change the world in a kind way, but also in a non-kind way if you have to be, but you also have to be kind to yourself and heal your wounds.

MG: Just before I let you go, there are some amazing images of your granddaughter, the ones at the very beginning where she wears one of your robes.

AAJU PETER: Yeah.

MG: And at the end, she's singing and drumming and dancing. And I mean, you light up when she is involved in the culture. And I just wonder what your hopes are for her and for that generation.

AAJU PETER: I don't know. I think there's a long, long way that Canada still needs to go. We have 3 to 7 times the cost of living. Our access and infrastructure and for instance, Canada is the only Arctic nation, Arctic state that doesn't have a university. I was at an airport some years ago where two Southerners are talking, oh, my child is thinking of going to this university and to that university, and they're talking about all the opportunities that their children have. And I was just amazed. Like my grandchildren don't have that opportunity. And I wish that they would have the same choices and opportunities like some of the Southern Canadians if they choose to. It's still so unequal. If we call ourselves Canadians and we are so remote and we are such a small group of people, how hard can that be to make our lives on par or as good as an opportunities as Southern Canadians? It cannot be that hard.

MG: Are you optimistic for her, for her future?

AAJU PETER: Oh yes. Yeah. They're very smart, thanks to media. Like they can look up how others are living and they can figure out many, many things using their connections. So to them, the world is right there in their palm compared to when I was growing up. We didn't have that. We didn't have electricity. We didn't have anything. It's a good thing and a bad thing, but absolutely, I think they will do good.

MG: This is a really powerful film. There's a lot in here in terms of you and you being willing to be generous and share your own story, but also kind of chart a path forward. It's a real pleasure to talk to you. Thank you very much.

AAJU PETER: Thank you. My pleasure.

MG: Aaju Peter is an Inuk activist and lawyer. She's the subject of a new documentary, Twice Colonized. And if you happen to find yourself in Toronto, you can see it this week as part of the Hot Docs Film Festival. That's The Current for this Tuesday. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. Again, they have a special celebration of the life and the legacy of Gordon Lightfoot. We're going to leave you with one more of his songs. It's early morning rain. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. We'll see you tomorrow.

[Song: “Early Morning Rain” by Gordon Lightfoot]

Tuesday May 2, 2023 Episode Transcript