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The Current Transcript for March 23, 2023

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

JUNAID KHAN: If I expect that somebody would learn Urdu in order to engage with people in Pakistan, then I need to figure out what the languages are of the people who lived here and still live here.

MATT GALLOWAY: Language, they say, is power. And there has been a swell of interest in recent years in indigenous languages in Canada, with young people in particular learning, strengthening and saving their traditional tongues. The CBC's Duncan McCue is among them. He enrolled in Anishinaabemowin classes. And one of the things he noticed is that a number of the students weren't in fact indigenous. In 30 minutes, Duncan's here with his documentary. Also this morning, for days, almost 30 million people in the Indian state of Punjab have had their Internet shut off by the government as police search for one man. Coming up, the politics of the blackout and the man at the centre of that search. And later.

SOUNDCLIP

MALE SPEAKER: They're wanting to really ensure that anybody that's affiliated with homosexuality is punished by the law.

MG: Members of the LGBTQ communities have been under fire in Uganda for years. Now, that country has passed some of the most tough anti-gay laws imaginable. Those found guilty of breaking the laws could be sentenced to death. In an hour, living in Fear. We start, though, in Ottawa where company’s coming. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

CANADA/US PANEL

Guests: Tonda MacCharles, Amanda Coletta

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Obviously, I’m going to be talking about a lot of things. We’ll of course be talking about China, but the centre of our conversations will be about jobs and growth, critical minerals and fighting climate change and continuing to build an economy across our continent that works, that works for all of our citizens.

MG: That’s quite the agenda. Might seem like the only thing missing is world peace. U.S. President Joe Biden will arrive this evening for a long awaited official visit to Canada. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and the U.S. President will meet at a time of both economic and political instability both here in North America and around the world. And so to get a sense of what we might expect, I'm joined by Tonda MacCharles, Toronto Star's Ottawa bureau chief, and Amanda Coletta, Canada correspondent for The Washington Post. Good morning to you both.

TONDA MACCHARLES: Good morning.

AMANDA COLETTA: Good morning.

MG: Tonda, the prime minister has been waiting for this visit since joe Biden was elected. There is the possibility some people believe that it could be overshadowed at least with news locally that the Liberal MP Han Dong is leaving the Liberal caucus. Global News reported last night that he had met with Chinese Consul general and asked China to hold off on freeing Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor from detention in China. Han Dong has denied those allegations. But what do you think this will do in terms of casting a shadow on this summit?

TONDA MACCHARLES: Look, it's definitely going to come up. I mean, the two leaders have already flagged that they intend to talk about China and Chinese interference And how does each country deal with China geopolitically. So look, it's an element of their discussion, but this is a much more broad ranging and busy agenda that's going to cover the waterfront and a whole bunch of issues. And you said, you know, all that's missing is world peace. Well, arguably, they plan to talk about world peace in Ukraine as well. So that's on the agenda. I think it's a domestic issue. It won't overshadow the visit.

MG: Amanda, how in line are Canada and the United States on how to deal with a China that's projecting its power on the international stage in a different way than it has in past perhaps?

AMANDA COLETTA: Well, when the U.S. ambassador to Canada, David Cohen, was in his nomination hearings, he sort of raised that, you know, one of the areas that he was looking for Canada to be more engaged was on China and in specific, he was looking for Canada to unveil a China strategy, which it's now done. And he has been fairly complimentary about what's in it. But I mean, there are certain alliances that the United States is creating, you know, the quad, the partnership between the United States, the United Kingdom, Australia on nuclear propelled submarines that Canada is not part of. So, you know, as Tonda mentioned, China will come up. And this question of interference, you know, Ambassador Cohen has said it's no surprise it's happening. We need to know what the alleged elections interference is targeting and if it's working. And I expect Biden would sort of echo those remarks if he's asked about it, which I suspect you will be.

MG: There will be a lot to shoehorn into this 24 hour meeting. You heard the prime minister say that jobs is at the top of his agenda. Last month, President Biden gave his State of the Union address. Take a listen to a little bit of what he had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

[audience cheering]

JOE BIDEN: Made in America. I mean it. Lumber, glass, drywall, fibre optic cable. And on my watch, American roads, bridges and American highways are going to be made with American products as well.

MG: Made in America. I mean it. Tonda, for Canada, the buy American policy is a real sore point. Pierre Poilievre, Conservative leader, wants exemptions. Do you think there's any way the Prime Minister can push the president on easing that policy given the standing ovation he got in Congress when he made that announcement?

TONDA MACCHARLES: Look, I think that Canada intends to make that case. The Canadian officials, when they talk about this, however, they basically believe that the buy American policy as it applies to the building of infrastructure, roads, bridges, etc., is a lesser threat than is getting cut out of the American plan to invest heavily, billions and billions and billions of dollars in creating a clean energy economy and, you know, electric vehicle manufacturing jobs and critical mineral supplies that the infrastructure piece and everything that goes into that is much, I would say the Canadian officials say that much of what is the bulk of cross-border trade is already covered under the free trade pact, and that's a lesser threat to Canadian businesses. Now, Canadian business leaders, they do want to be exempted. They do want to be included in that kind of support for infrastructure building by the Americans. But I don't expect there's going to be huge news on that front out of this meeting. I think the priority for both the administration, according to the briefing they gave us yesterday and for the Canadian government, is to ground the attempt to build a North American and a resilient supply chain in the newer industries is going to be front of their agenda. And on that front, maybe we'll hear some announcements. But as it regards, you know, do Canadian companies get a cut of the procurement and contracts and rebuilding bridges, roads and etc. south of the border, I don't expect that to be a huge part of what we hear tomorrow.

MG: Amanda, in the United States, is there any appetite for buy North America and not just buy America?

AMANDA COLETTA: We actually heard a White House official who was speaking about this visit yesterday sort of reference North American economic integration, including around greening the economy. And, you know, we've seen in the past with what was then the build back better bill that Canada has pressed for carve outs on, in that case, subsidies for electric vehicles that were being made with union labour in the United States and in U.S. factories. You know, Canada went so far as to threaten to impose tariffs. We haven't really seen that happen so far, in part because as Tonda mentioned, and I think, you know, government officials and analysts that I've spoken to have said they're still really trying to figure out whether Biden's buy American plans will have any impact on Canadian industries and to what extent that's the case.

MG: Beyond the issue of the economy, and that seems to be the umbrella under which many of these discussions will happen, there's the issue of national security. Amanda, what's going to be top of the agenda for the United States during this visit?

AMANDA KOLETTA: Biden administration officials have indicated that defence is a major priority, particularly in the context of the war in Ukraine. It's no secret that U.S. officials have long been pressing Canada to up its defence spending. Canada is still falling short of the NATO target of two percent of GDP. And there's also the issue of NORAD modernization. In comments this week, the U.S. Ambassador to Canada sort of said that he was looking for more specifics on what resources have been allocated to this and really, the timeline for when Canada expects to get some of this work done, which the United States would like to expedite.

MG: Tonda, where does Canada stand in those discussions? Again, this is a nation that as the war in Ukraine has unfolded, there are announcements constantly, it seems, coming out of Ottawa about support for the Ukrainian government and the Ukrainian military. But beyond that, where is Canada in that conversation?

TONDA MACCHARLES: Yeah. So, you know, it's pretty clear the U.S. officials have been flagging that, look, we're happy with Canada's efforts on Ukraine and went so far as to effusively praise Justin Trudeau yesterday, saying, you know, the Canadian government needs no lessons from us. They're all in on Ukraine. Where the defence piece comes into play is both in the context of continental defence and also to a certain extent, in what Canada is prepared to do to step up and help on the Haiti issue. You know, the destabilization that we're seeing in Haiti right now is another priority for the U.S. But look, on continental defence, that's a big piece right now. All those balloons that were floating around in the north of Canada and drifting southward and the buoys they saw in the Arctic Sea, that's a worry. It highlighted the need for a robust continental defence plan. And what the U.S. has telegraphed to Canada yesterday is like they want details. Sure, it's all well and good for Canada to point to last year saying, oh, we’re going to spend five billion more on NORAD over the next six years. But the U.S. points out that sure, it's also well and good you're going to buy 88 F-35 jets, but you don't have the infrastructure in the north to land them. Your runways aren't built. They want to know how fast Canada is going to spend that money and what's the timeline. They want actual progress on those issues. So does Justin Trudeau come to the table and say, okay, we're prepared to accelerate some of this? Or does he say, ease up, we're doing what we can in the time frame we can? That is a big irritant, I think, in this visit. And there's a reason why they do these visits. It's not just to pat each other on the back and say we're the best of friends. The fact is that these leader visits are expected to advance some of the more prickly issues.

MG: What about the issue of Haiti? You raised this. We talked about it yesterday and talked about just how complex the situation on the ground there is right now. People are afraid to go out because they're worried that they'll be kidnapped. We spoke with the former chief of defence staff, Tom Lawson, who said he wouldn't advise Canada following the U.S.’s guidance in leading an international stabilization force because this will go on, he thought, for years, if not decades. Do you think the Prime Minister will bend to the pressure of the United States in taking that lead role in stabilizing Haiti?

TONDA MACCHARLES: Look, I think it's an open question what Canada is going to do on Haiti. What Justin Trudeau is really pushing is that everybody, U.S., France, European allies have to do is up the sanctions on the elite in Haiti who are funding some of the criminal gangs. And, you know, whether Canada is prepared to step in and lead, for example, some kind of other U.N. mission, it's almost a movie that the world has seen before. There's been U.N. missions and efforts in Haiti. Things are very unstable now. You know, it's a cycle that I think has given everybody a reason to pause. But will Canada step in and offer perhaps more police support? It's not clear where that's all going yet. But I do expect something to come from the meeting because the U.S. is also tying the Haitian question and what is happening with the migration out of that country to the whole issue of immigration and migration and continental challenges on that front. So, you know, those two issues may be tied in all of this. If Canada wants changes on immigration at Roxham Road and the border, perhaps they have to step up and do something on Haiti.

MG: Let's talk more about that. 5000 people crossed Roxham road in January alone, and there is concern from the United States about those migration patterns from Canada as well in terms of what the safe third country agreement may or may not be facilitating. Here is what the Conservative leader, Pierre Poilievre and the Prime Minister had to say about that issue last month.

SOUNDCLIP

PIERRE POILIEVRE: It is his job to close the border and we're calling him to do it at the Roxham Road passage within 30 days.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: If Pierre Poilievre wants to build a wall at Roxham road, someone could do that. The problem is we have 6000 kilometres worth of undefended shared border with the United States.

MG: What does Canada want the United States to do about these crossings, Tonda?

TONDA MACCHARLES: Well, Canada would like the U.S. to accept back refugee claimants just as we do at official border crossings that come across at the irregular points. But the U.S. has not agreed to yet extend that. And to be honest, it's a challenge for both countries, which is what we've heard from both sides in this week of lead up to this visit. There were migrants crossing both ways. The bulk are coming into Canada right now. But that's a hangover, if you will, from the Trump administration sort of, you know, broad brush stroke of being unwelcoming to many refugees from many countries. And I think that at this stage, there's no question. The agreement calls for it to be reviewed periodically. Those talks have been stalled for a while. I think everything right now is tied to what the U.S. calls the broader question of root causes of migration across the continent. So will Canada take in more Central American refugees to ease the pressure on Biden's administration south of the border and the border with Mexico? It's an open question. We keep hearing them talking about we're all looking to deal with a broader issue here and create more pathways for regular migration. So stay tuned on that.

MG: Amanda Coletta, How responsive do you think the United States would be to Canada's concerns about these border crossings? The Prime Minister has said he hopes that there will be an announcement soon, but there is also the speculation that the U.S. isn't particularly interested in having a close look at that safe third country agreement. What's your sense?

AMANDA COLETTA: Right. Well, you know, it's really interesting because the increase in irregular crossings from the United States into Canada has been going on really since Trump's inauguration in 2017. And Canadian officials have been saying for almost as long that they're working on, quote unquote, modernizing the safe third country agreement with their U.S. counterparts. I think Minister Mendicino told Radio-Canada in December actually that the negotiations were effectively over and that an agreement was months, not years away. So some of the rhetoric we've been hearing from Canada, it sort of echoes what officials here have said for years. And I guess it's kind of hard to square with what we've heard from some U.S. officials who have said, you know, we have very little incentive to reopen the agreement. So that doesn't mean that there won't be some announcements related to this this week or in the near future. But as Tonda mentioned, the U.S. really sees this issue at the northern border as one slice of a broader problem concerning migration in our hemisphere. And so, of course, it also pales in comparison with what it sees at its southern border. So if Canada, I think, can help out on maybe addressing some of the root causes of migration, perhaps there would be some flexibility in taking a look at this. But it's part of this bigger picture for them.

MG: Tonda, a lot of pomp around meetings like this, flags all up in Ottawa and people, you know, vacuuming up the red carpets and what have you, making it presentable. What is accomplished in conversations like this? As you said, it's not just a lot of back patting, but there's something larger about a meeting like this beyond the symbolism. What can actually be accomplished in 24 hours?

TONDA MACCHARLES: Well, the Canadians are making much of the fact that, look, no president in recent memory has stayed overnight in Canada. You know, Obama, when he came up to see Stephen Harper and Trudeau was bombed in one, you know, flew in, flew out the same day, that the Bidens are coming, that Biden is bringing his wife, that the prime minister and his wife are spending at least an hour. It's funny, even the Americans said dinner, but the Canadians say snacks at Rideau Cottage tonight. They're going to have a chance to have an in-depth conversation around bilateral and global issues without, you know, all the other agenda items that accompany them when they meet at an international summit, for example. So does this further or not just some of the immediate issues on an agenda? Does it further the ability to have frank conversations around a whole bunch of things? Already, the Americans have characterized that relationship as a warm one. It's Justin and Joe, they say. I think what it does from both side’s view, at least as they're telling us, is that it furthers and deepens these conversations and relationships. But the relationship between the two countries goes beyond any president or Prime Minister. So does it anchor I think, you know, action and willingness on the officials on both sides of the border to advance issues? Perhaps it does a bit of that too. You know, everybody takes their cue from the boss, right?

MG: But just very briefly, is there pressure on the prime minister to get something out of this beyond yeah, they're paying attention to us?

TONDA MACCHARLES: Absolutely there is. I mean, I think that, you know, it's one thing to sort of downplay expectations only to show up at a news conference and, you know, wave a few announcements. I think that we'll all be looking for real progress on some of these things and also to see, you know, get a window on how deep the irritants really are. You know, if the U.S. is really applying a lot of pressure on defence spending, well, you know, will that make a difference in how the Liberal government plots its way forward on defence spending? They've been making other choices to support social policies and not to a great, great extent defence spending. So.

MG: Amanda, just briefly from you, I mean, do you see consensus among these two leaders? In addition to all of the optics, is there the opportunity for substantive conversations?

AMANDA COLETTA: There's definitely greater policy alignment between Justin and Joe than between the Prime Minister and the previous U.S. president. And, you know, I think it's also important because at home, the president has a divided Congress, which presents its own challenges. He has these very tenuous relationships abroad with Russia, with China, even in our own continent with the Mexican president who just this week was accusing the State Department of lying in a report about human rights abuses that it alleges are taking place there. So I think the president appreciates that this is a relatively friendly relationship. But it's also a reminder that Canada is not exactly the number one priority for Americans, and that having a visit like this really focuses the entire government apparatus on Canada for a particular period of time. And so they'll try to make as much of that as they can.

MG: Thank you both.

TONDA MACCHARLES: Thanks so much.

AMANDA COLETTA: Thank you.

MG: Tonda MacCharles, Toronto Star's Ottawa bureau chief. Amanda Coletta is the Canada correspondent for The Washington Post. CBC News will have live coverage on Friday hosted by John Northcott in Toronto, analysis from Catherine Cullen in Ottawa as President Biden addresses Parliament. That's on CBC Radio at 1:30 p.m. Eastern and on your CBC Listen app. The CBC news is up next. And then.

SOUNDCLIP

JUNAID KHAN: A really crucial aspect of learning the language for me was being able to call things by their Anishinaabemowin names.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Animals.

JUNAID KHAN: Yeah. Animals, plants.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Birds.

JUNAID KHAN: Birds.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Fish.

JUNAID KHAN: Yeah. Yeah.

MG: A number of schools in Canada now offer indigenous language courses, but the students may not all be who you think. In six minutes, the story of an immigrant from Pakistan and why he decided to learn Anishinaabemowin. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

INDIGENOUS LANGUAGE DOC

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come, the Ugandan government has passed a bill making it illegal to identify as gay. In just under half an hour, the threat LGBTQ people face in that country and what the new laws could mean. But first, learning the language of the land.

[Music: Theme]

MG: CBC radio host Duncan McCue is Anishinaabe and he has been on a journey to learn his ancestral language. He has got a documentary for us today about something unexpected that he found along the way. He is with me in studio. Duncan, good morning.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Aanii, Matt.

MG: You and I have spoken about this before.

DUNCAN MCCUE: We have?

MG: About studying Anishinaabemowin. You're focusing today not so much on the language, but on who's in the class and on non-Indigenous students.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Yeah. So when I first started studying Anishinaabemowin, I was totally surprised that so many of my fellow students were non-indigenous. And I was looking around and I was like, okay, like what are you doing here?

MG: Which is the question that you want to ask in a documentary.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Yeah.

MG: Let's have a listen.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Okay.

SOUNDCLIP

[walking, snow crunching sound]

JUNAID KHAN: It’s snowing. Lots and lots and lots.

[Duncan and Junaid speaking Anishinaabemowin]

DUNCAN MCCUE: It's Wednesday night in Peterborough.

JUNAID KHAN: This is like the second most serious snow we've gotten this winter.

DUNCAN MCCUE: That's Junaid Khan.

JUNAID KHAN: We're now at Sarah's place because it’s Anishinaabemowin class time.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Junaid is learning what the Guinness Book of World Records once listed as the most complex language in the world, Anishinaabemowin.

[knocking on door, door opens]

[Junaid and Sarah greet each other in Anishinaabemowin]

DUNCAN MCCUE: Tonight, he's visiting one of his classmates, Sarah Wood.

[Junaid and Sarah speaking Anishinaabemowin]

DUNCAN MCCUE: Sarah is Anishinaabe and she's learning to speak her mother tongue.

SARAH WOOD: So I feel really lucky that this class is online because we obviously live here in Nogjiwinong, Peterborough and the rest of the class comes from Toronto. So yeah, when Junaid just said in class like, oh, Nogjiwinong ndidaa, I was kind of like that's going to be my new language friend.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Your language buddy?

SARAH WOOD: Yeah. [laughing]

DUNCAN MCCUE: Thing is Junaid isn't Anishinaabe.

[Junaid says in his language and translates to English] I come from Pakistan.

DUNCAN MCCUE: He immigrated to Canada two decades ago. He's fluent in Urdu and English. But once a week for nearly four years now, he's devoted himself to studying the original language of the land he now calls home.

[man typing on keyboard and speaking Anishinaabemowin]

DUNCAN MCCUE: The faces popping up in their zoom class are a mixture of Anishinaabe and non-Indigenous students.

[Junaid and Marie speaking in Anishinaabemowin]

JUNAID KHAN: A really crucial aspect of learning the language for me was being able to. Call things by their Anishinaabemowin names.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Animals.

JUNAID KHAN: Yeah. Animals, plants.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Birds.

JUNAID KHAN: Birds.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Fish.

JUNAID KHAN: Yeah. Yeah. It felt like if I could say the names of species that existed on this land, there's a place for you here, you know.

[music fades in]

DUNCAN MCCUE: Let me explain. Junaid’s Anishinaabemowin language journey began when he was struggling to complete his Ph.D. in Toronto in biology.

JUNAID KHAN: I had not met very many people in the biology, ecology, conservation realm that were people of colour. So I had this grandiose idea of like, all right, I want to do a Ph.D. on the practical application of a decolonizing approach to conservation practice. And I was going to use native bees just as a case study to do that.

[music fades out]

DUNCAN MCCUE: Decolonizing Western science made sense to him having grown up in Pakistan, a country scarred by imperialism.

JUNAID KHAN: I know what colonization is about. Been there. Most of my family trauma comes from that process.

DUNCAN MCCUE: But then, he was talking with his mom.

JUNAID KHAN: She was talking about a friend of hers. And she was just like, you know, can you believe she's lived here for 25 years and she still can't speak like English fully, you know? And it hit me in that moment. I was like, crap, mom, Like you and I have both been here for 16 years. Neither of us know a word of like an indigenous language. If I expect that somebody would learn Urdu in order to engage with people in Pakistan, then I need to figure out what the languages are of the people who lived here and still live here.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Except he didn't know what the original language was in the place now called Toronto.

JUNAID KHAN: I just remember, you know, Anishinaabeg kind of sticking in my head. It's like, oh, okay. They're like, they're big people around here. You know, they used to be everywhere, they’re territories. They're part of a lot of treaties. So they have a language. So I just started looking up like indigenous language learning in Toronto and not a lot came up.

DUNCAN MCCUE: He managed to find an evening class at the native Canadian Centre known as the NCCT.

JUNAID KHAN: I just went to the NCCT one day and I was like, language class. And they were like, oh yeah, it's on so and so night. I was like, okay, cool. I guess I'll come back then. So I came back and forth like three different times before I finally managed to enrol.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Meanwhile, Junaid’s struggles with his PhD had him questioning his whole purpose in life.

JUNAID KHAN: It was definitely exacerbated by the stresses of graduate life, you know. Like I don't think life should feel like you're about to fall into the maws of a dragon at any given time. But it was a very tough and lonely place I found myself mentally.

DUNCAN MCCUE: He was having difficulty even getting out of bed some days, but he finally dragged himself to his first Anishinaabemowin class. And it was…

JUNAID KHAN: Terrifying. I walked in and it was so full, which was super cool. And there were like kids in the back and it seemed like everybody knew each other. But there was no charge for the class.

DUNCAN MCCUE: It was a free class.

JUNAID KHAN: Yeah. I felt really weird being in this free class. I was like, maybe it's not free for like non-Indigenous people. There was just this pins and needles for me that I just felt like I was occupying space that really should be for someone else, you know, like another indigenous person should be there instead of me being there. But nobody was like, you can't be here. And I really tried to find a spot like towards the back of the room, but I couldn't. I ended up sitting in the very front. And Ninaatig just jumped in, then he picked up a ukulele. I was like, okay. And he started playing the ukulele and, you know.

[ukulele playing, Ninaatig and Junaid singing]

JUNAID KHAN: But I have no idea what he's saying. This is my first day.

JUNAID KHAN: Then he walks over to me and looks me dead in the eyes as if for me to sing.

[Ninaatig’s singing and playing fades up]

JUNAID KHAN: And I just like nodded no. I was like, I don’t and he moved on to the next person. I was like, oh my God, everybody here knows that song by heart. I was sitting next to a student and he was, man, he was so gracious. Like this was my first time interacting with like another indigenous person like my age. He just kind of leaned in and he was like, don't worry. I also forget the song. And so like the ice broke.

[Ninaatig’s singing and playing fades up and ends]

NINAATIG: If I want my language to be like a national language, regional language here in Canada, like it can't just be Anishinaabeg who speak it, right?

DUNCAN MCCUE: To Ninaatig Staats Pangowish, Junaid’s ukulele playing teacher at the Native Centre, it's simple. Anishinaabemowin, like all indigenous languages, is endangered. He and other teachers are fighting to revitalize it. Ninaatig figures, the more the merrier.

[Ninaatig and Tiffany speaking Anishinaabemowin]

DUNCAN MCCUE: That's why he also teaches at the University of Toronto.

[Ninaatig and Tiffany’s conversation fades up]

NINAATIG: In the university setting, like 75, 80% is non-indigenous. I don't know. Learning language in general is hard. Learning Indigenous languages that are chronically underfunded is a hard task for Indigenous and non-Indigenous learners.

[music fades in]

DUNCAN MCCUE: No one is tracking how many non-Indigenous people are Indigenous language learners. In 2021, Statistics Canada reported that a pretty small number of non-Indigenous people, around 6000, are fluent speakers of an Indigenous language, most as a second language. But a lot more are learning though.

[music fades out]

DUNCAN MCCUE: Take just one province as an example. In British Columbia, over 100 public schools, colleges and universities offer indigenous language courses to students of all cultural backgrounds.

[Mark Miller speaking Kanien'keha:ka]

DUNCAN MCCUE: Non-Indigenous language learners are even popping up in the House of Commons.

[Mark Miller’s speech fades up]

DUNCAN MCCUE: That’s Minister of Indigenous Services, Mark Miller, who is white reading a statement in 2017 in Kanien'keha:ka, the Mohawk language, which he quietly started studying online.

[Mark Miller’s speech fades up, audience cheering]

MARK MILLER: I did it because I wanted to show solidarity to my friends who are working on perfecting their French. And I thought, oh, how hard could it be? It's extremely hard. And I was extremely naive when I got into it. I'm an outsider into those communities and I'm very privileged to experience that.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Junaid felt privileged too to learn Anishinaabemowin, even grateful for what the language brought to his life and taught him about being an ecologist, a whole new non-Western way to look at connections to land. More than that, as he threw himself into learning the language, slowly, he felt his depression lifting.

JUNAID KHAN: The simple act of coming to a class for apparently the world's hardest language seemed really inspiring.

[music fades in]

DUNCAN MCCUE: It got you up out of bed.

JUNAID KHAN: Yeah. Like there were these other people who were also struggling with the same language. And for, you know, some of them, this is the language of their ancestors. The way of thinking about the language I think got me out of my sadness stupor. There was just something to keep feeding on, this like endless mystery of this Pandora's box of a language.

[music fades up and out]

[knocking on door, door opens]

DUNCAN MCCUE: I'm visiting the home of another Sarah, Sarah McDowell.

[Duncan and Sarah greeting each other in Anishinaabemowin]

DUNCAN MCCUE: She's a former librarian, non-Indigenous, now working on her master's thesis at U of T.

SARAH MCDOWELL: My thesis is about what non-Indigenous people can or should do to support First Nations language revitalization.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Sarah began studying Anishinaabemowin a dozen years ago to be a good ally.

SARAH MCDOWELL: When you don't hear indigenous languages around you, that contributes to the sense of invisibility of Indigenous people, right? Then we don't have to feel guilty. So I think that when we learn indigenous languages, it's a way to undo that injustice and ensure that Indigenous people have their languages back, their land and their families safe and sound.

DUNCAN MCCUE: For her thesis, she's interviewed numerous Anishinaabe elders and language teachers. All support the idea of non-Indigenous learners taking up the language. But it's not problem free.

SARAH MCDOWELL: You know, in the past, non-Indigenous people have learned Indigenous languages so that they could promote their careers without giving back to the community, not thinking about the community. So, you know.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Like linguists.

SARAH MCDOWELL: Like linguists or anthropologists, folklorists, even government employees and so on, all kinds of people. So that's really problematic.

DUNCAN MCCUE: An even stickier problem when it comes to classroom dynamics is when non-Indigenous students start learning the language faster than Indigenous students.

SARAH MCDOWELL: One of the things that people have talked about is that Indigenous people often have a lot of trauma about languages because they've been in residential schools or their parents or their grandparents. And those things can impede your learning because when you're emotionally upset like that and you're worried about things like that, it's harder to learn. And then you have non-Indigenous students who don't have to deal with that.

DUNCAN MCCUE: That's why Sarah believes if communities decide language classes should be for Indigenous students only, non-Indigenous learners should just back off.

SARAH MCDOWELL: It doesn't mean that we're being rejected. And nobody said they didn't like non-Indigenous people or didn't want non-Indigenous people learning Indigenous languages, at least within the Anishinaabe community. It just means that Indigenous people need a space where they can heal and learn together, right?

DUNCAN MCCUE: Trouble is many Indigenous languages are in such a precarious state, there aren't enough language teachers to go around.

[Ninaatig teaching Anishinaabemowin]

NINAATIG: I just want to stop here and point out that use of an A form and a B form, right? She/he watch them doing something, that is part of A.

DUNCAN MCCUE: So when public schools and universities start offering classes, it can draw language teachers away from teaching language in indigenous settings.

NINAATIG: For me, it's a balance of like where to put my own energy.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Here's Ninaatig Staats-Pangowish again.

NINAATIG: You know, you obviously have to put food on the table and heat the house. And sometimes, you know, jobs teaching non-native people pay more. The provincial school across the board offer those like benefits, pension, job security through the union. It does draw away resources.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Until there are more Anishinaabeg fluent enough to teach, Ninaatig thinks maybe beginner courses, which are often full of non-Indigenous students, could be taught by non-Indigenous teachers. That would allow Anishinaabe teachers to focus on rebuilding fluency in Anishinaabe communities.

NINAATIG: It's a little bit of a slippery slope, right? Because considering Canada's history, non-Indigenous people should not be profiting off of Indigenous cultures, languages, arts and crafts, what have you.

[walking sounds]

DUNCAN MCCUE: Which brings me out in the woods with Junaid Khan.

JUNAID KHAN: The day is getting nicer. Are you going to sing for us?

[bird chirping]

DUNCAN MCCUE: Remember what Junaid said earlier about what motivated him? Learning the names of animals and birds.

JUNAID KHAN: Oh Joe. It landed on your head.

DUNCAN MCCUE: A couple of years ago, he met Joe Pitawankwat, a young Anishinaabe plant expert. Today, he's walking with Joe through the woods near Toronto, working on their latest project.

JOE PITAWANKWAT: Well, most birds, they're real clean in the way that they just come in and they eat all of the bugs. That one, though, separates all of the bark, peels all the bark off. Biipigwenh is like a separation of something.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Joe has been working to revitalize traditional plant knowledge for years, using the wisdom embedded in Anishinaabemowin. He's not fluent himself, though, and he was really discouraged at how few Anishinaabe children are learning the language, which is why he started working to reclaim and promote the Anishinaabe names of birds.

JOE PITAWANKWAT: Kids just seem to be really attracted to indigenous taxonomy of birds, our names and to generate interest in a young learner, to say that's a magical language.

DUNCAN MCCUE: So you're seeing birds as being kind of the gateway drug into learning the language and connecting with the land.

JOE PITAWANKWAT: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I think that's my biggest motivator for the project.

DUNCAN MCCUE: And that's where Junaid comes in. He and Joe and another biologist started working on a project to document Anishinaabe bird names, combining Joe's traditional knowledge with Junaid’s scientific expertise. They're researching the ecology of bird behaviour that's embedded in Anishinaabe language and worldview.

JUNAID KHAN: Well, I remember Joe blowing my mind with this one. One time, we were talking about migizi. You know, it's like the most quintessential bird name in Anishinaabemowin. Like, you know,

DUNCAN MCCUE: Eagle.

JUNAID KHAN: Eagle. Yeah. If you say migizi, people are like, yeah, I know migizi. And you go over to the English version of that name and it's Bald Eagle. Who do you have to be in order for your head to be white when you're bald?

DUNCAN MCCUE: An Elder.

JUNAID KHAN: Yeah. But also an elder Caucasian person is bald and looks white.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Yeah.

JUNAID KHAN: But that doesn't tell you anything about the eagle. The Eagle is not actually bald, whereas migizi is actually describing what the bird does, right? Migiskan, a hook, and its talons are just like that. They look just perfect to catch a fish as they skim the top of water. That's exactly what their claws are made for. And so suddenly with that one name, you now not only know what this bird's physical characteristics are, but you also kind of know that, oh, fish are important to this bird's living. So we should probably not just hunt all the fish. So in that one word, the world makes so much more sense than just saying bald eagle. The Anishinaabe names actually tell you the unique role that these species play.

[birds chirping]

JOE PITAWANKWAT: Those are ravens.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Gagaageshinh.

JOE PITAWANKWAT: Gagaageshinh. Yeah.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Gagaageshinh. Do you know where that comes from?

JOE PITAWANKWAT: Well, you know, the uvula in the back of your throat is called ga ga giinh. And the way my grandma said it, she was like, yeah, that's how come we call ravens that. That's what we use.

JUNAID KHAN: Look at them having a great time.

[Junaid and Joe imitate bird sounds]

[bird chirping]

DUNCAN MCCUE: They recently produced a pamphlet of Anishinaabe bird names, which they're distributing to birding communities. And they're working to raise funds to produce more. For that, Joe relies on Junaid.

JOE PITAWANKWAT: You get guys like Junaid coming in and learning the language and being so motivated. And so thinking about the idea that one day he might be fluent in my language and maybe even I will not be, it’s like I create in my own head a competition. I can’t let him win, I'm going to win. And so it's motivating for me to learn my language.

DUNCAN MCCUE: He's saying right now, like, you're my guy. You're the best second language learner I know with regard to Anishinaabeg,

JUNAID KHAN: Also, I'm willing to wake up at 3 a.m. to go find birds, Duncan, you know? I have this similar level of obsession that Joe does, and that is crucial because that obsession is what drives you through these periods of like, am I in the right place? Should I be learning? Is it weird that I'm in this position? I should really be supporting other indigenous people to be in this position. Am I a Steeler?

DUNCAN MCCUE: Is he a stealer?

JOE PITAWANKWAT: No. You know, this guy helps me so much because I always got to correct him. I got to make sure everything I'm saying is right because this guy is going to take that and run with it. So yeah, it's sad that the classes are not so full with Anishinaabe learners. The reality is these classes are sparse and sometimes even having more non-Indigenous learners than indigenous. And so that goes back to our motivation, my motivation for this project to use birds as a vehicle or a gateway into realizing the majesty of this language.

DUNCAN MCCUE: As for Junaid, once upon a time, he was a Pakistani kid who felt like he didn't belong here. Now…

JUNAID KHAN: Now, the idea of fitting in, I feel a lot more grounded on the land that I occupy and that groundedness comes from Anishinaabemowin.

DUNCAN MCCUE: Connected to Anishinaabe-aki?

JUNAID KHAN: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

[music fades in]

JUNAID KHAN: There will be a moment where, you know, the wind will pick up real hard when you're in the middle of a hike. And suddenly, this phrase will go through my head, you know, where I'm just like, [speaks Anishinaabemowin]

[Duncan repeats]

JUNAID KHAN: You know, like, oh, I know something. But I've started to take joy in the moments where the language sort of comes easier. It's still quite precious to be able to learn Anishinaabemowin, a language that is very purposefully stamped out. I think it's worth its weight in gold.

[music fades up]

MG: That documentary was from the CBC's Duncan McCue and the CBC audio documentary unit. Well, coming up after your regional update, we'll head to the Punjab where people there are without mobile Internet as police in that state search for a Sikh activist. In 15 minutes, civil unrest and a separatist movement in northern India. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Back in 90 seconds.

[music fades up and out]

UGANDA GAY ACTIVISTS

Guests: Allan Nsubuga, Oryem Nyeko

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

MUSA ECWERU: We’re making this law for ourselves. We are making this law for our children. We’re making this law for the children of our children. This country will stand firm. We are going to reinforce the law enforcement officers to make sure that homosexuals have no space in Uganda.

[people cheering]

MG: Homosexuals will have no space in Uganda. Those were words from Musa Ecweru, a member of Uganda's parliament, speaking about a new anti-homosexuality law. The legislation makes it illegal to even identify as gay or transgender. Crimes that come with lengthy jail time and in some cases, even a death sentence. On Tuesday, the bill passed parliament. It's now pending presidential approval. Allan Nsubuga is a human rights activist, a member of Uganda's LGBTQ community. Allan, hello.

ALLAN NSUBUGA: Hello.

MG: When you hear that comment from a member of parliament in your country that this legislation is for the benefit of your country, what goes through your mind?

ALLAN NSUBUGA: So many things go through my mind when I hear statements like that being made by politicians. On one end, it makes you angry, on one end, I'm not surprised because most times, it's because I feel like our politicians have forgotten what Ugandans care about. And maybe because they don't want Ugandans to actually care about those particular things. And this is the one thing that they feel the Ugandans need. But I hope and wish they listened to Ugandans a little bit more.

MG: Hmm. What is this going to mean for you? As a member of the community, what will this law mean for your life?

ALLAN NSUBUGA: For me personally, this law means that I have to change my life upside down. I can't do the more normal things that every other person has to do. I can't be outside like anyone else. I have to find utmost security measures to just eat in a hotel. I can't order food. I have to mind where I eat. I have to mind who I talk to. I can't see my parents as much. I can’t be with my family. It means that me and my friends cannot be together like we always are, to be there and emotionally support each other. So this law means that literally, I am not a human being in this country.

MG: What is different now from before? Because in past, same sex relations were illegal in Uganda. So what does this law change in that?

ALLAN NSUBUGA: This law changes so many things in that it not only criminalizes persons, but it criminalizes our entire existence. It means that we do not have justice to anything because some of the clauses say that if someone kills me tomorrow, they will not go to jail. I will not get justice for my death because I belong to this community. It means I can die and nobody will be held accountable. And this law also means that, the penalties around it and also the way it has been crafted, it means that I cannot go to a health facility and seek targeted services. And that is really inhumane because all of us have a right to health. We have a right to stay alive. We have a right to get medication. And it means that a doctor to treat me is a crime. It means that a lawyer to stand and defend me in a court of law is a crime on their end. So this law, this bill, and if it becomes the law, is different from the one that was crafted about over 10 years ago because it is very harsh and it basically strips the humanity and all aspects. It promotes more systematic homophobia that has been growing silently within the Ugandan system, different Ugandan systems, and now that homophobia is being legalized.

MG: You're a clinical psychologist, and so you work with people within the community as well. And I'm wondering what you're hearing from them about how this law, to your point, will impact not only, well, it will impact everything around their existence. What are they telling you about what this is going to mean for them?

ALLAN NSUBUGA: I'm hearing so many different kind of things from different people because for example, different communities have different vulnerabilities and what this law means. I'm hearing so much self-hate within people who are trans, especially transgender men and transgender women are in fear of even just getting out of their house. They have to suffer more gender dysphoria because they have to dress a certain way to make sure that they are not attacked. So it has taken a mental toll on so many people individually, many people who are now having conversations that are homophobic happening in their families, are having so many thoughts of suicide, so many thoughts of, you know, self-hate. And it actually puts me in a very difficult position as a psychologist and also an activist because I have to choose when to be an activist and also when to be a psychologist because you sit and you have to talk to this person. And it gets to you because you really care about the issue and also you care about their safety. And you hear all these stories and it is heartbreaking. But also activists, I feel like it's really tough on activists and their mental health in particular, because many activists are not thinking about themselves right now. The day to day of our lives as activists is to make sure people are safe. And people are forgetting to just check in within themselves. And we've seen that when I was talking to an activist last night and they told me that I was in this meeting and I just went off. We are all emotionally very vulnerable. And someone told me the other day that, you know, if someone just gives me a hug right now, I'm going to break down. So that is what I've been hearing from activists and community members and what I’ve observed.

MG: Just before I let you go, let me ask you just a couple of quick things. One is what are you going to do? Will you stay in the country given how dangerous it is and everything that you've talked about? Will you stay? Could you leave? What will you do?

ALLAN NSUBUGA: Uganda is my home. I will stay here and fight to my best because this is my home and I belong here just like everyone of them and I am not going anywhere. This is my country. My grandparents served this country. My family has served this country. I am not leaving this country because of 395 people who think that 40 million Ugandans, they know the feelings of 40 million Ugandans about my existence. I am not going anywhere.

MG: Just finally, why is it important for you to speak out? I imagine it's really dangerous for you to talk about this. But why is it important for you to talk to us about it?

ALLAN NSUBUGA: I think it's important to me because of the words that I move by every day and the words about us using our bodies and putting them in certain spaces to make sure that we fight for what we believe in. And this is me actually inserting myself there because that is what I can do. And I wish that people who have power should not actually let me do that. But it's what I am able to do in my own right to make sure that me and my people, we are not lost and our voices are not lost.

MG: Allan, take care of yourself and stay safe and thank you for speaking with us.

ALLAN NSUBUGA: Of course. Thank you very much.

MG: Allan Nsubuga is a human rights activist and member of Uganda's LGBTQ community. Oryem Nyeko is the Uganda and Tanzania researcher in the Africa Division at Human Rights Watch. Oryem, hello to you.

ORYEM NYEKO: Hello.

MG: We heard Allan explain what their perspective on the law is and what it would mean for them. From your perspective, what exactly does this law mean for the LGBTQ community in Uganda?

ORYEM NYEKO: So basically, the bill that was passed on Tuesday is entrenching what had already existed in Uganda, which is the criminalization of same sex acts. But it's not only entrenching it, but it's expanding on it so that it's not just the criminalization of two people of the same sex having sex with each other, but also what they term as people promoting homosexuality. They've made provisions that make it a crime to run an organization that supports LGBTQ people and can send people to prison if the authorities interpret you as doing that. And this can have broad implications on a wide range of people, not just LGBTQ people, which I think is really important to talk about.

MG: How realistic is that? I mean, as Allan talked about members of the community, if somebody was attacked, if somebody was killed in the community, that other people wouldn't be held to account for that attack.

ORYEM NYEKO: So I think that was an excellent point that Allan made. I think that the law in and of itself doesn't authorize people to kill people because they are sexual minorities. But what it does really is it justifies homophobia because first of all, we've seen public figures for the past several months spewing homophobia in the mainstream media. And now with a law passed in parliament, that's going to send a message to people that it's alright to discriminate against people based on what you think their sexual identity is. So it's our right to attack them. It's our right to deny them employment and housing. And I think that that's one of the things that I think are important to talk about.

MG: Why is this happening now?

ORYEM NYEKO: That's the big question. We don't know. We're seeing similar patterns in other countries in the region. We've seen attacks on LGBTQ people in Burundi, very hostile rhetoric in Kenya and Tanzania. From public figures and on social media, it's been extremely hostile. I think ultimately, it's designed by politicians to distract from ongoing issues that are genuinely affecting people in this region because it's a low hanging fruit, it's something that many people have strong feelings about, and also because homosexuality is being framed as something that's foreign and threatening to people's children.

MG: And a minister who is behind the legislation said that this was about the sovereignty of the nation. And there are these conspiracy theories that are making the rounds on social media in Uganda saying that homosexuality is coming from the West, for example. How receptive do you think people are to those sorts of ideas?

ORYEM NYEKO: Yeah. I think that it's a message that works, especially because there's not a lot of public figures that identify as LGBTQ. But they don't identify as LGBTQ publicly anyway because they're afraid of reprisals, because bad things could happen to you if you say you are gay in Uganda, for example. And so that just feeds into this idea that there's no actual Ugandans that are LGBTQ and therefore that it's foreigners that are coming in and targeting children and recruiting them to be gay. And so people will believe that ultimately because they have no evidence to the contrary.

MG: Canada's prime minister has called this law abhorrent. The United States Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, urged Uganda to strongly reconsider the law. Uganda is also a close ally of the United States and gets close to a billion dollars a year in international development aid. What would you want to see the international community do?

ORYEM NYEKO: I mean, I think that strong messages about how this kind of law just cannot stand in a country that professes to uphold principles of human rights. That's Uganda, but also its partners. I mean, if any country is partnering with Uganda and it's in and of itself claims to uphold those principles, then that partnership shouldn't stand in a country where a segment of the population is going to be discriminated against and essentially punished for who they are. So I think it's important that Uganda's partners take real concrete steps to voice their discomfort with it.

MG: And then you have the Ugandan president warning Western countries to stop imposing their morals on Uganda. You just wonder whether that strong language from the United States, from Canada might actually backfire and might actually fuel more support for those laws in Uganda, because it feels as though people are standing up for their country. Do you worry about that?

ORYEM NYEKO: Well, I think ultimately, Ugandans have agency and they have the ability to make decisions about what they believe in. And I think that it's important that as many people as possible speak out about what's going on, this law because it is genuinely going to harm ordinary Ugandans and not just LGBTQ people, the population as a whole. If a law is passed that restricts people's rights in this way, then that just opens the door for more laws that are even more restrictive. And I think that that just can’t stand in a modern country.

MG: Oryem, thank you very much.

ORYEM NYEKO: Thank you.

MG: Oryem Nyeko is the Uganda and Tanzania researcher at the Africa Division at Human Rights Watch.

[music]

PUNJAB INTERNET

Guest: Krishn Kaushik

MG: You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio and the CBC Listen app. My name is Matt Galloway. For millions of people in India, it is day six without proper Internet service. Officials in Punjab say they have shut down mobile Internet service in an attempt to stop the spread of fake news as they search for a man named Amritpal Singh. He is a preacher and activist who supports Khalistan, a separate Sikh homeland. He says his true fight is against drug abuse, which he believes is overwhelming Punjab.

SOUNDCLIP

AMRITPAL SINGH: I'm standing with my own people. There will be consequences. I know that. But what I can do? You want me to be silent and let my people die? I can't do that. Do you see the drug genocide epidemic here? At three villages, 20 to 25 guys were caught and some villages had 80 guys with overdose. Who is controlling the drug? Who has the responsibility to end this epidemic?

MG: That’s part of an interview that Singh did with the news organization Mojo Story. Krishn Kaushik is a reporter with Reuters in India. He's in New Delhi. Krishn, hello to you.

KRISHN KAUSHIK: Hi. Good morning. Nice to be here.

MG: What impact is this Internet restriction having on the day to day lives of people in the Punjab state?

KRISHN KAUSHIK: So you have to understand one thing. The Internet shutdown, which was statewide earlier, which started on Saturday, actually is now restricted to just two districts of the Punjab state. The Punjab state has 27 million people. These two districts where the internet shutdown is still valid still has more than two and a half million people. So of course, it is affecting millions of people, as you mentioned earlier. In day to day life, so the Internet shutdown is also restricted just to mobile communications. It's not there on office networks and everything. But still, you know, people who are out and about, it makes life tougher for them. You know, the Internet is so permeated in our lives that, you know, you need it for everything from banking transactions to, you know, accessing different places using the maps. And, you know, in India, more and more people are using these online transactions even for small amounts. So that has been impacted, definitely. But as of today, most of Punjab doesn't have these restrictions, and they’re just restricted to two districts now.

MG: What was the point of this? I mean, in addition to all of those mobile transactions, you had the Twitter accounts of people like Canada's leader of the NDP, Jagmeet Singh, and the poet Rupi Kaur, who they had their accounts blocked in the Punjab state. What was the point of unplugging the Internet for 27 million people?

KRISHN KAUSHIK: So of course, you know, what they claim is that they want to curb fake news. So the police chief that has been holding regular press conferences has been asking people not to circulate fake news, which is not intentional always. Sometimes, it's misinformation and disinformation. But one reason why the state actually uses this kind of a tool which has been happening in India all across, not just Punjab and it's not the first time. So why the police uses it is to prevent people from congregating in a place either to protest or to maybe block the police from taking particular kind of action. This has been prevalent in Kashmir for quite some time now. According to certain reports, India has seen the maximum Internet shutdowns in the last five years in the country, which is quite concerning, of course. So while the police claims it is just for fake news, there are of course multiple other reasons why the state results to this kind of an action.

MG: Just briefly tell us about the man at the centre of this, Amritpal Singh. Who is he?

KRISHN KAUSHIK: He's a young man. He has not lived in India for more than a decade. He used to be in Dubai. According to Indian authorities, he spent about more than a month before he came to India last year. Sorry, he spent more than a month in Georgia before he came to India last year, which was about August, September. 30-year-old man. He was part of something called Waris Punjab De, which means heirs of Punjab, which was started by an actor and activist, Deep Sidhu, who died in a car crash. This guy took over the mantle. And while Deep Sidhu did not make Waris Punjab De or hadn't used it for a while for the separatist movement, but Amritpal Singh is doing that. He's a preacher. Of course, when he says there's a drug menace, nobody can deny that. And that's a pretty powerful narrative to build a movement on. There's definitely a drug abuse crisis in Punjab. But along with that, he has been propagating ideas of the oldest separatist leader back in the seventies and eighties in Punjab. He's been trying to emulate him, dress up like him, talk like him. And he's talking of a separate state of Khalistan. Something like the demands for Khalistan had largely died down in India. Of course, there's a minority population among the Sikhs in the diaspora like in Canada, in the U.S., in the U.K., in Australia that have been discussing it and have been talking about Khalistan. But the demands for an independent Khalistan had largely died down after the nineties. So he's definitely trying to propagate that again. And that is a bit concerning for many in India and especially the Indian authorities because nobody wants to see the violence that Punjab saw back in the eighties, you know, to kill Bhindranwale and its forces into the Golden Temple, which is the holiest shrine among Sikhs. And he was caught and killed, of course, but entirely in retaliation. Indira Gandhi who was the prime minister then was killed by her two bodyguards. And the woman didn't die immediately, of course. The killing of Indira Gandhi led to the riots in Delhi, you know, which are the poor grown by many. Many people say a lot of Sikhs were killed in that. So the violence ensued for some time after that, but the movement largely pitted down starting early nineties. And now with the call for revival of that movement, there is some concern. However, his popularity is not that wide. Indian authorities tell us that his popularity is in tens of thousands of course, but that's still pretty minuscule for a state like Punjab which has about 27 million people. However, as a young person, his use of social media has been particularly astute and he's been able to reach out to people outside the country as well. And that is concerning the Indian authorities a bit.

MG: We're almost out of time. Let me ask you just a couple of quick things before I let you go. One is why is it so difficult to catch this man? He continues to be on the run with 80,000 police officers looking for him. There was this car chase that was live streamed by his associates. Why has he been so difficult to catch?

KRISHN KAUSHIK: Well, that is something only the authorities can answer. I really have no answer to that. But of course, he's been proven quite elusive. He's not a hardened criminal, as you can understand. He has never been caught for any other act of violence earlier, though of course, there might have been charges against him. But the fact that he's managed to give a slip to the authorities just shows probably authorities were not doing the job properly. And you never know, he might have the support of certain sections, whether it's within Punjab. Indian authorities also claim he has got support from the neighbouring Pakistan as they keep accusing Pakistan of fomenting this movement. So there are those accusations and those allegations as well that he might have got some support from there. But yeah, I mean, there was a car chase then he changed his clothes Apparently. He went on a motorcycle and yes, he has been in hiding since.

MG: And just finally and briefly, how important is his capture for the government of Narendra Modi, given the fact that elections are just, what, a year away in India?

KRISHN KAUSHIK: So you have to understand it's not Narendra Modi's government that's in power in Punjab the state. There's an opposition party that's in power in Punjab, which is the chief minister who is a Sikh person himself. So it is not in anybody's interest to really have a man on the loose like him who is talking about a separatist movement, neither for the party that's in power in Punjab and also Narendra Modi's party in power in the centre. Honestly, preachers like him can be quite beneficial to politicians. They have large followings. If they can bring them on their side, they can win them votes. But because Punjab is a border state for India, it’s a sensitive state, they don't want a person like him who can actually foment a secessionist movement again to be on the loose. So that's the importance whether elections or not.

MG: This is a fascinating story. I appreciate you bringing us up to speed on it. Krishn, thank you very much.

KRISHN KAUSHIK: Thank you. You have a nice day.

MG: And you. Krishn Kaushik is a political and general news reporter for Reuters India. He was in New Delhi. That's The Current for this Thursday. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. We were hearing earlier Duncan McCue’s great documentary about people learning an indigenous language, Anishinaabemowin, to be specific. If you missed the documentary, you can find it on the CBC Listen app. There are classes in which they're teaching people Anishinaabemowin, and there are also musicians who are making an effort to bring those indigenous languages into popular music. Tara Williamson is among those musicians. She was raised in Swan Lake, Manitoba, recorded a tutorial for CBC to teach people how to sing one of her tunes in Anishinaabemowin. And so to take us out this morning, this is that song. We'll tweet out a link to her video if you want to learn to sing along. In the meantime, this is Ode'min Giizis, Her Strawberry Moon. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. See you tomorrow.

[Song: “Ode'min Giizis” by Tara Williamson]

Thursday March 23, 2023 Episode Transcript