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The Current Transcript for June 8, 2023

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

MALE SPEAKER: I could be in for a shock financially, right? All my friends are feeling the pinch that are about to renew their mortgages right now. Where do you just find 1100 bucks a month?

MATT GALLOWAY: It's certainly not the news that people already struggling to pay for the basics wanted to hear. In the face of stubborn inflation and an economy that keeps on churning, the Bank of Canada again raised its key interest rate. In a moment, the bind that some Canadians now find themselves in and what higher interest rates will mean in a nation already carrying a lot of debt. Also this morning, golf is a game of tradition, old rules, handshakes and history. So it wasn't a surprise when the PGA reacted with outrage to an upstart challenge featuring big money contracts and loud crowds in a new league funded by Saudi Arabia. What was a surprise was this week's announcement that the Saudi challenge won.

SOUNDCLIP

MALE SPEAKER: Whether you like it or not, the PIF were going to keep standard money in golf. If you're thinking about one of the biggest sovereign wealth funds in the world, would you rather have them as a partner or an enemy? At the end of the day, money talks and you’d rather have them as a partner.

MG: In 30 minutes, golf, diplomacy and the resurgence of Saudi Arabia just five years after the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi. Plus, it was more than a decade before Jackie Robinson broke the colour barrier in baseball. In an hour, the story of a black baseball team from Chatham, Ontario, and how a championship season in 1934 challenged racial norms of the time. We begin, though, with higher interest rates and Canadians feeling the pinch. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

INTEREST RATE HIKE

Guests: Martin Byaruhanga, Frances Donald

SOUNDCLIP

LISA FIERBACK: We're in the process of buying a house, my husband and I. And so it is really a shock at the moment, actually.

MG: Lisa Fierback is looking to buy a home in Winnipeg. Yesterday, the Bank of Canada hiked its key interest rate for the first time since January, and that has made Lisa's home dream a bit further out of reach.

SOUNDCLIP

LISA FIERBACK: It's kind of the price range we thought we were going to be looking in and then trying to get the pre-approval for it because they look at the interest rate and then they have to add on to the interest rate for pre-approval. Oh well, the amount that we have put away and we saved up for this and that's not the price range that we're looking at anymore. So yeah, kind of the shock and disappointment, I guess.

MG: That shock and disappointment is being felt by many across this country today. The key interest rate now stands at 4.75%, the highest since 2001. Martin Byaruhanga is one of the many Canadians struggling with this hike. He's in Fort McMurray, Alberta. Martin, good morning.

MARTIN BYARUHANGA: Good morning.

MG: What went through your mind when you heard the news of yet another rate hike yesterday?

MARTIN BYARUHANGA: It was a striking, a striking hike due to the fact that the interest has increased a lot and is making it super, super hard to catch up with our debts that we accumulated back in 2021.

MG: Hmm. Can I ask you, it's awkward to ask about money, but if you don't mind, how much more money are you spending on your mortgage now compared to when you bought your house?

MARTIN BYARUHANGA: Compared to when I bought my house two years ago, I'm spending more than 30%, 35% increase from what I initially paid, which is about more than 1200 as of now.

MG: $1200 more.

MARTIN BYARUHANGA: Yes. Yes.

MG: Is it easy to find $1200 in your life?

MARTIN BYARUHANGA: Obviously, as we all know that we have all financial plans, $1200, it is shocking to face. It is. It comes with changing everything, which means that it is not an easy, if I’m to answer your question, to find $1200 to top on the mortgage payment.

MG: Tell me more about that. What are the changes that you had to make to find that extra money?

MARTIN BYARUHANGA: These increases have caused us to change, a lot of changes occurring actually around our normal living, which includes looking into how we spend, what we eat, what we put on, considering that my wife had to take on a job a month before her maternity leave to catch up with all the payments and including ourselves to continue eating healthy.

MG: So there's a few things there. One is you said your wife, you just had a new baby. So congratulations.

MARTIN BYARUHANGA: Thank you.

MG: But your wife was on maternity leave and she had to come back early from maternity leave?

MARTIN BYARUHANGA: Yes, that's correct.

MG: And what did that mean for her? Was she able to just get back into the job that she had been on maternity leave from or what happened there?

MARTIN BYARUHANGA: This comes with a lot of challenges and a lot of changes. Obviously, that could trigger her mental health, our mental health as a family and wellbeing because considering that she was preparing to getting back to her job in a month in advance. That changes everything. Looking into childcare, looking into who is going to take care of the other programs with finding her job. Actually, she has to completely take on a new job due to the fact that the previous job did not take her back in. But that is another topic that you can explain in a different segment.

MG: You also said that you had to make choices in terms of things like what you eat. Tell me about that and those choices, how that's played out with your family.

MARTIN BYARUHANGA: At first, it was challenging, obviously, with kids with being picky eaters, but we tried to work around it. We are continuing to work through it. But with the government introducing a couple programs and benefits, they are not quite suited well to supporting completely with the cost of living due to the fact that different regions in this country experiences different costs of living which are sometimes super expensive.

MG: So have you had to cut specific things out of the grocery budget, for example?

MARTIN BYARUHANGA: Yes.

MG: Like what?

MARTIN BYARUHANGA: We have looked into the type of eggs that we buy. We have looked into the milk that we used to buy, to reducing the content. We have reduced the fresh produces to being to going to frozen and packed stuff. And that has to come up with some consequences for sure.

MG: What about work for you? I mean, we have heard from people who have had to, and you mentioned your wife coming back to work a month early. We've heard from people who have had to find additional work, maybe take on extra work. How has that worked for you?

MARTIN BYARUHANGA: So before my wife returned to work, obviously, I had to take on extra couple of shifts to make up some payments. Though due to my wife returning to work and having to have three other babies at home, now it makes it challenging to continue with my side gig, which makes it super expensive. But yes, I had to move into adapting to taking the shifts. But now my wife is back to work, so I have to look into taking care of the babies when my wife is on shift, and which means that it reduces my way of living as well.

MG: How much stress, if you were to describe it, how much stress are you living through right now with all of that, all of the things that you're juggling?

MARTIN BYARUHANGA: At the rate of one to five, I would say three. When I think about my mortgage renewal, which will be coming, of course, in 2026, as we say, considering the fact that I don't think the Bank of Canada is going to hold on raising, we may be expecting another interest hike which will affect our mortgage renewal for this time. So it is super stressful to looking into how this is playing out.

MG: What is that going to mean for you? Are there other things that you can cut? As you mentioned, you're already paying more. Your mortgage comes up in a few years time. And we're going to talk about this more in just a moment, but the belief is that interest rates that take effect now don't actually have the impact that people will feel for a couple of years down the road. And so when that renewal comes up, are there other still things that you can cut in your budget or what happens?

MARTIN BYARUHANGA: I think at the time, which I'm expecting that more interest would be due or raised, I would not think there would be more thing that would be able to cut unless there are some subsidies or other benefits that will come through it or a way to force ourselves from not being able to renew our mortgage.

MG: What will you do?

MARTIN BYARUHANGA: Probably would be returning back to renting, downsizing and as well as renting with the rent rates increased and hiked, which is pushing a lot of people into a tight corner for sure.

MG: How worried are you about the future? I mean, again, you have a family, a new baby. There's a lot going on in your life. And so when you look ahead, what's going through your mind?

MARTIN BYARUHANGA: I have made a couple of changes with putting hold on my education, which I had two or three years ago. But I am hoping that the future could be great or could be catastrophic. Considering the way how it is playing out really now, it is really super hard to predict.

MG: Yeah. I wish you the best of luck. Your story is an important one and a very familiar one, I think, to many people in this country. Martin, good luck to you and to your family.

MARTIN BYARUHANGA: All right. Thanks so much.

MG: Martin Byaruhanga is in Fort McMurray, Alberta. Some business owners are also being pushed to the edge by this latest hike.

SOUNDCLIP

GREG GUNNARSON: So this is our little dining room, 72-seat dining room, 36-seat patio. And this is our little kitchen, small but official.

MG: Greg Gunnarson gives us a tour of the restaurant he co-owns in a Winnipeg suburb. He put The Capitol Grill and Bar up for sale in February. Thus far, though, no takers.

SOUNDCLIP

GREG GUNNARSON: I'm here seven days a week cleaning and painting and fixing plumbing, and everything I do is for this business. Heartbreaking.

FEMALE SPEAKER: This is your baby.

GREG GUNNARSON: And that's truly what it is. This is that. That's the best way to say it. This is my baby. I nurture it and I take care of it and it's going to be hard to just say goodbye.

MG: Greg says the last three years have been a roller coaster ride he would rather forget. First, it was plummeting revenue due to the COVID lockdown. Then the scramble to find staff and start back up. And now, it's runaway food prices and interest rates that are squeezing his bottom line.

SOUNDCLIP

GREG GUNNARSON: When I hear stories about interest rates, I shudder. We have multiple loans for different business reasons and all of those are variable rates, unfortunately. On some of our business loans, it's as high as 11%. It's just making us go further and further in debt. Every month, I'm going in debt anyways. And so with the interest rate hikes, I have to dip into my personal savings and my line of credit and credit cards.

MG: And that's not where Greg's interest rate story ends. It turns out his home mortgage just came up for renewal as well.

SOUNDCLIP

GREG GUNNARSON: Unfortunately, when we renewed this time, we were not offered any fixed rates. There was just a variable rate and we chose it because it was quite low six months ago. And now, we are suffering the consequences of that. My home mortgage used to be around $2000. Currently, it's 25 to $2600 a month.

MG: Frances Donald is the global chief economist and strategist at Manulife Investment Management. Frances, good morning.

FRANCES DONALD: Good morning.

MG: So these are really tense times. As we just heard, people are struggling to keep their heads above water. From your perspective, who is going to be most impacted by this move to increase lending rates?

FRANCES DONALD: Just about everybody. But the challenge is not all at the same time. And a lot of Canadians from households to businesses are going to feel these interest rate hikes with a lag. Most people who are going to feel the bulk of this are going to be renewing their mortgages in the next couple of years. And that's why it's so challenging right now for the Bank of Canada's policy to be increasing interest rates because it really does take one to two years from every hike to feel the full impact on the economy.

MG: So what is that going to mean for people? Because we've heard about variable interest rates, and so those who are on a variable rate will feel this now. But for people who are overextended, the phrase is house poor. They spent a lot of money on their dwellings and they might have a fixed rate mortgage, but that's going to come up in a couple of years. What is that going to mean, do you think? Will there be people who cannot afford to renew those mortgages?

FRANCES DONALD: Well, absolutely. And this is the painful element of monetary policy. It's almost designed to do that. These interest rate hikes are designed to slow the economy in a dramatic way so that we have less money to spend on things like, you know, the first things to drop are going to be services at restaurants and the things we can do without, but it is going to squeeze people and particularly low income Canadians more than where they are right now. So those things are going to occur over the next couple of years. Many people are saying, well, you know, two years from now, the Bank of Canada will drop rates pretty significantly. So we won't feel the full brunt of it. But this is a Bank of Canada that’s said, you know what, we understand growth is going to slow. We're not going to lower interest rates even in that type of environment. That's a very different paradigm than what we've seen in the past, you know, many recessions in Canada. And, you know, it's going to be a very difficult environment for Canadian households, for businesses. And I certainly hope that the Bank of Canada recognizes just how challenging this environment is. And importantly, are they actually successful in bringing down inflation? Probably not to the same extent that traditionally monetary policy could.

MG: Why is the bank doing this now? The bank had frozen rate hikes for the past five months. So why now?

FRANCES DONALD: What occurred in the last month or two is inflation data that came in, as they say, hotter than expected, and that growth also came in stronger than expected. But this is the challenge, is that most of the data that we get in Canada is three to six months delayed. It tells us where we were last quarter, not where we are right now. And classic economic theory would tell you that actually, the economy is going to weaken quite a bit in the next six months. So this is a bank of Canada that is so worried that we're all going to become accustomed with inflation that they're trying to hike now to disabuse us of the notion that prices will continue to rise. But Canadians understand where inflation is coming from. They understand that food prices are rising globally. We all know that oil prices fluctuate not because the governor of the Bank of Canada increases or decreases rates, but because there are supply management dynamics. Saudi Arabia just cut a million barrels of oil out of their production and that may move the price of oil. And they don't care if the Bank of Canada increases interest rates or not. A lot of our inflation comes from supply chain dynamics, from ongoing COVID issues that are occurring in China and Southeast Asia. So in the past, a lot of interest rate hikes would have cooled inflation a lot more than it is in this environment. But we're in a new paradigm here now where inflation is being driven by a host of factors. In addition to that, these increased interest rate hikes are keeping a lot of people trapped in rentals who would prefer to be certainly buying their own homes. It's now unaffordable for them for a range of reasons. This increases rental prices. So you have guests on your show who are talking about how challenging this environment is for them. Of course it is. Food prices are still high. Energy prices fluctuate. Rents are through the roof. So what we're hearing from the Bank of Canada is we're doing this to help you. But for now, it certainly feels like all it is doing is creating pain.

MG: So the belief is that this may not actually help cool the inflation that we're seeing right now because to your point, much of that inflation is driven by global factors, factors that are out of the control of the Bank of Canada.

FRANCES DONALD: Well, that is my view and it is the view of several economists. It's not consensus thinking. And this is the challenge with economics. Even economists like myself can admit that while it's a lot of theory, we think we understand how this environment is working. But ultimately, we are in a new type of economy after COVID. So a lot of our traditional models that tell us if we do this, this will be the income or the outcome, those aren't working as much as we would have hoped in the past. In part, that's why inflation is higher than the Bank of Canada forecasted right now. Now the Bank of Canada is going to say, well, one of its most powerful tools is inflation expectations. And if they keep telling us over and over again, we're going to bring inflation back to 2%, we'll believe them. I'm just not so sure that Canadians are listening as much to the Bank of Canada as they are watching their bill at the grocery checkout.

MG: Do you think this is going to push the country into a recession? People would suffer during a recession. People would lose their jobs. And I just wonder, A, do you think that's going to happen? And B, how is that possibly a good thing?

FRANCES DONALD: I do think there will be a recession and I don't think it was necessary. Now, is this last rate hike the reason for the recession? No. We've seen the tightest, fastest increase in interest rates that we have seen in modern history. A lot of Canadians say, oh, why did they take a variable rate? Or some say, how could anyone have taken a variable rate in the last few years? Well, no economist, no mortgage broker would have ever foreseen. Not even the Bank of Canada knew that they would do something historic over the next 18 months. So, you know, we're charting uncharted waters is the way I put it. A recession is not a good thing, and a recession tends to disproportionately hurt lower income Canadians. Now, the Bank of Canada’s perspective is we'll have to suffer short term pain for long term gain, that if we can get prices down because we punish the economy, that that will lower inflation over the long run. And I think a lot of economists would actually agree with that approach as terrible as it sounds if it was successful in lowering prices. The problem is are we really pushing ourselves into a recession? Are we unemploying people to target something that's unachievable, which is bringing inflation substantially lower? This is my big concern, that this recession we're about to go through isn't necessary. And it's one thing to look at GDP numbers and unemployment rate, but there are real people at the end of this. There are families that are trying to pay their rent. There are families that are trying to put food on the table.

MG: Let me just ask you a few more questions before I let you go. One is you said short term pain. How short is this short term pain likely to be? The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation says that we have the highest level of household debt of any of the G7 countries. People are carrying a lot right now. And so how long will this pain last?

FRANCES DONALD: Well, our formal models now will tell us that we're in for a three quarter recession, so negative growth for three quarters. But what we're effectively doing is creating a wall of maturities for increase in mortgage payments likely for the next several years, three to four years. So this dampening effect on growth is likely a multi-year development unless, unless central banks feel that they've achieved what they want to achieve, that inflation expectations come back down towards 2% and we could see an unwinding. So a lot of how painful this is depends on, you know, do we actually see a Bank of Canada that lowers rates? How do we see government support coming into the picture to produce some growth over time? Do we see global factors that help alleviate price pressures along the way? And also to a certain extent, how does the global economy fare? Fortunately, when the U.S. enters a recession, Canada tends to follow. But you're right. In this case, Canada is much more vulnerable to increases in interest rates than other major economies, including the United States. So one interest rate hike from Canada is going to hurt more than one in the United States is another great example.

MG: I guess just briefly and finally then, is there anything that people who are carrying that debt who are worried about making those payments, is there anything that they can do to prepare for what's coming?

FRANCES DONALD: I can tell you what I've done in my own world, which is to now think through scenarios as opposed to poor forecast, which is to think there's a range of possible outcomes. Interest rates could go up further. They could fall. We need to be prepared for a range of possible outcomes over time.

MG: It's cold comfort, I think, for a lot of people. We'll leave it there. Frances, thank you very much.

FRANCES DONALD: Thanks for having me.

MG: Frances Donald is the global chief economist and strategist at Manulife Investment Management. What do these rate increases mean for you? Are there changes that you are already making in your life? How are you preparing and what are you most concerned about as this continues, to Frances's point, in future? You can email us, thecurrent@cbc.ca. You're CBC News is next. And then, Saudi Arabia's big swing is paying off. A year ago, the kingdom backed a new pro golf tour. Now, that tour is merging with its rival, the PGA. While it brings pro golfers back under one roof, there are many concerns about the strings attached to Riyadh's wallet, something that Ottawa is dealing with as well. We'll talk about that in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current on CBC Radio and the CBC Listen app. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

SAUDI ARABIA

Guests: John Chidley-Hill, Dennis Horak, Bessma Momani

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

JAY MONAHAN: There are significant implications. I would ask any player that has left or any player that would ever consider leaving, have you ever had to apologize for being a member of the PGA Tour?

MG: What a difference a year makes. That is the commissioner of the PGA a year ago, referring to a new Saudi backed golf league. Now, with the tours merging, the questions are being asked Is this about the Greens or the greenbacks?

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

BRYSON DECHAMBEAU: It's unfortunate what has happened, and that's something I can't necessarily say because I'm a golfer. But what I can say is that what they're trying to do, what they're trying to work on is to be better allies because we are allies with them. And look, I'm not going to get into the politics of it. I'm not specialized in that. But what I can say is they're trying to do good for the world and showcase themselves in a light that hasn't been seen in a while. And nobody's perfect, but we're all trying to improve in life.

MG: That's pro golfer Bryson DeChambeau. And the they he is referring to there is Saudi Arabia. Last year, he left the PGA to take $125 million U.S. to join LIV. This is the upstart golf league funded by Saudi Arabia's public investment fund, which is controlled by the country's crown prince. There was fierce criticism of the league when it launched with concerns raised about Saudi Arabia's human rights record and the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi. This week, it was announced that the PGA will actually merge with that upstart league. John Chidley-Hill is a sports reporter for the Canadian Press, and he's with me in studio. John, good morning.

JOHN CHIDLEY-HILL: Good morning. Thanks for having me.

MG: Thanks for being here. So if somebody is not a golf fan, can you explain this story in a minute? What is this? What is this about?

JOHN CHIDLEY-HILL: A minute might be a tough ask, but I'll try. What it's about is, as you said, the public Investment Fund created the LIV Golf league, and now they are, they would actually say that they're not merging, but they're creating an umbrella organization which is yet to be named, that will include PGA Tour players, DP World tour players, which is the European based league, as well as players who had jumped ship from the PGA Tour to LIV Golf. Significantly, it's financially largely backed by PIF as well as earlier PGA Tour investments. It's going to still be headed up by Commissioner Jay Monahan of the PGA Tour. This organization is yet to be named, but that's sort of what we know so far. I think that's less than a minute.

MG: It is less than a minute. How big of a news story was this merger in the golf world when this broke, given what we said about the outrage that had been expressed from people when this upstart tour was launched? How big of a deal was this merger?

JOHN CHIDLEY-HILL: It was shocking. I mean, we used the phrase bombshell. And I hate to use sort of like war-like language, but it was shocking. It was surprising. All the golfers I spoke to yesterday at the RBC Canadian Open, which is here in Toronto this year, they were all shocked. They hadn't been consulted in the process and they were using words like shocked, betrayed, blindsided. So yeah, we don't even know how this is all going to pan out. The shockwaves are still spreading.

MG: One of those golfers is the Canadian PGA golfer Mackenzie Hughes, who had this to say about the merger.

SOUNDCLIP

MACKENZIE HUGHES: I don't know much about the PIF and Saudi Arabia for that matter. I just know that for the last year, we've talked not very highly of it. And now, we're thinking that this could be a really good thing. So we're all wondering why. Obviously, it comes back to money, I think, in my mind.

MG: So as you mentioned, many of these players are here in Canada for the Canadian Open. A year ago, the commissioner of the PGA, Jay Monahan, talked about a group of 911 families who were saying that this was a bad move, the creation of this league, that it was an insult to those families who died on September 11th. This week, that same group said that they were shocked and deeply offended by the merger. What changed in a year?

JOHN CHIDLEY-HILL: I think what changed in a year was that they were able to strike a deal. I think money talks, to be frank. I don't see what else could have changed. It's not like the ownership group of LIV Golf changed. That's still Saudi Arabia. That's the only thing that makes sense to me. And again, all the golfers, as you heard from Mackenzie Hughes, were surprised. And one of them, I spoke to Erin Cockerill from Stoney Mountain, Manitoba, who's the only Canadian on the DP World tour and also affected by this new deal. And he said he didn't think that there would be any sort of understanding or reconciliation for five or six years. So I don't see what could have changed in a year except some sort of financial understanding.

MG: There were golfers who took hundreds of millions of dollars to go and play for this Saudi backed league. There were other golfers who said no. Then they wrapped themselves in the tradition of golf and that I'm here to preserve and protect their tradition of golf. One of those golfers is one of the best in the world, Rory McIlroy. You spoke with him yesterday. How did that conversation go?

JOHN CHIDLEY-HILL: You got it. I guess maybe a little bit testy. I asked him directly at a news conference at Oakdale Golf and Country Club, you know, what do you say to fans who are upset about this? Because as you just said, for an entire year, the PGA Tour side of things and their fans who supported it, you know, did sort of take the moral high ground. They said, you know, we heard the clip from Jay Monahan, you know, you don't have to apologize if you're playing for the PGA Tour. And now, all of a sudden, that money, it's okay somehow in the span of a year. And Rory McIlroy, you know, he first of all took issue with me saying that it was a deal with LIV Golf. He said, no, it's not LIV Golf. It's PIF, which is, I think, splitting hairs.

MG: Yeah, That's the investment fund.

JOHN CHIDLEY-HILL: Yeah, that's the investment fund. And he also said, you know, I still hate LIV Golf. I hate LIV Golf. Those were his exact words to me. And then when I pressed him on it, he admitted, yeah, it looks hypocritical. And Rory McIlroy said that he'd had a conversation with Jay Monahan where he said, this looks bad, this looks hypocritical. You know, you've galvanized the two sides and now you're saying, oh well, but we can do business with them. You know, it did get a little testy with Rory, but we're both big boys. I’m sure he’ll be fine.

MG: And he also said he felt like a sacrificial lamb because he's somebody who has defended the tradition of golf and then suddenly, the cheque gets bigger and that tradition perhaps is not as important or?

JOHN CHIDLEY-HILL: Yeah. Well, I mean, here's the thing. Rory McIlroy yesterday insisted that he'd never been offered money to join LIV Golf. We can take him at his word, I guess, but yeah, he was the spokesman of the golfers throughout this, the PGA tour golfers. He was their loudest, excuse me, he was their loudest defender. He was their de facto spokesman. And as you said, he said yesterday he feels like a sacrificial lamb. He'd been on the frontlines of that war of words and he wasn't consulted in this new deal. He wasn't. He’s still, I think, unhappy about it. You know, he seemed nonplussed at the idea that he might have to play in non-traditional golf events like team based events. He criticized the style of play on LIV Golf yesterday. So, you know, I don't think he's happy about the deal. I think he tried to take the high ground yesterday, be sort of, you know, gracious about it, but I don't think Rory McIlroy is happy.

MG: The phrase you used was that money is all right now. One of the reasons why people questioned the money was this idea of sportswashing. Saudi Arabia has been accused of using this tour to sportswash its reputation. What does that mean?

JOHN CHIDLEY-HILL: So sportswashing, it's a related term to greenwashing. And the idea is that an organization that has maybe a less than reputable reputation uses sports to sort of put a glossy shine on things. A great example, a historical example is Nazi Germany hosted the 1936 Olympics. That was them sort of sportswashing what we all know to be a terrible regime. Saudi Arabia has done similar things through its public investment fund.

MG: Not just in golf.

JOHN CHIDLEY-HILL: Not just in golf. They bought Newcastle United.

MG: The soccer team.

JOHN CHIDLEY-HILL: The soccer team. They have some ownership stakes in several video game companies, including Nintendo Electronic Arts. They also have used, it's not sports, but they've used the WWE where they've paid professional wrestling promoter to come to Saudi Arabia and put on these massive shows called Crown Jewel, which again, it's sportswashing, and it's putting a sort of a glossy sheen on a regime that is ultimately an absolute monarchy and has a terrible history of human rights violations.

MG: We're going to talk more in just a moment about the re-emergence of Saudi Arabia in political circles in this country and beyond. But just finally, on sports, if they're able to make these moves in golf, in Formula One racing, in wrestling, what else is on the horizon, in soccer? I mean, people have talked about could they perhaps buy an NFL team? What else is possible, do you think?

JOHN CHIDLEY-HILL: Honestly, I think anything's possible. I mean, Rory McIlroy said it himself yesterday. What do you do with someone who has the most money, right? At the end of the day, there's nothing you can really do to stop them. And he said, again, quoting Rory McIlroy, he said, you know, they were going to spend their money in golf whether we liked it or not. Now, at least we have a say in how that money is spent.

MG: John, thank you. John Chidley-Hill is a sportswriter for the Canadian Press. He was in Toronto. Saudi Arabia's efforts to rebrand aren't, as you heard, just limited to the sports world. The country is looking for a change in diplomatic status as well. In May, Canada and Saudi Arabia agreed to reinstate ambassadors after that relationship was severed five years ago. Dennis Horak was the last Canadian ambassador to Saudi Arabia. He was expelled from that country in 2018 after the then foreign affairs minister, Chrystia Freeland, took to Twitter calling out that country's human rights record. Dennis Horak, good morning to you.

DENNIS HORAK: Good morning.

MG: Does money talk when it comes to getting Saudi Arabia back into the world of, for example, professional golf?

DENNIS HORAK: It certainly does. And, you know, on the issue of sportswashing, yes, it is an issue. And certainly, in terms of raising Saudi Arabia's profile and in their view, their prestige, these sorts of purchases or alliances or mergers certainly help. But I do find it a bit ironic, though, that if this is sportswashing, it's not overly successful because every time they do a move like this, a high profile move, what it does is return focus on to Saudi Arabia's human rights record and we have conversations like we're having this morning. So it's a bit of a double edged sword for them.

MG: If you take it out of sports, as I mentioned, Canada and Saudi Arabia have reinstated ambassadors. Is now the right time to re-engage with Saudi Arabia?

DENNIS HORAK: Yes, I think it is. In fact, I think it's overdue. Saudi Arabia is an important player regionally. They're an important player globally, and we can't ignore that reality. They've been much more active regionally. They've been certainly reaching out to Iran, to Qatar, building a bridge back to Qatar, also reaching out to Syria. So they've been very active in trying to work out a peace effort in Sudan. They have reportedly helped Canada evacuate some people out of Sudan. So they are an active player. And it's important for us for Canada to have a sense on what's going on there and to be able to talk to the people in senior leadership positions in Saudi Arabia to find out what's going on to perhaps work out. What we can do to help, for example, perhaps on Sudan. In any case, to have discussions with people at senior level, we need ambassadors.

MG: That activity, as you know, is not all good. There is the murder of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi, chopped up in an embassy in Istanbul. The country is currently engaged in a war in Yemen that has led to one of the worst humanitarian crises in decades. There is a longer track record of human rights abuses. What role does morality play in establishing or re-establishing diplomatic ties?

DENNIS HORAK: Well, it's always a balance that we have to strike in terms of trying to engage and have a normal relationship with a country on the one hand, on the other, being able to properly assess and be able to criticize those issues that we are concerned about. And they go hand in hand. We don't just have relations with countries you like or with countries with whom you agree on everything. Diplomatic relations are about dialogue on positive elements and negative elements as well, and that applies equally to human rights.

MG: Suspending those relationships, though, presumably means that you are trying to have some sort of impact, that if you're going to reestablish them, that you want, for lack of a better phrase, a lesson to have been learned and changes to have been made. Is there any indication that anything has changed in the five years?

DENNIS HORAK: Well, just first of all, on the premise, I mean, other countries have normal relations with Saudi Arabia and then care just as deeply as we do. And we weren't the ones to disrupt this relationship in any case. And so I don't think we were looking for them to necessarily learn lessons. But in terms of changes, certainly, they have, this Vision 2030 program is a massive economic and social reform effort, and it's been ongoing in terms of, for example, women's work, women's participation in the workforce has continued to increase, and that's a key goal of this reform effort. Now, what this reform effort isn't. It isn't about political reform, and we wish that it would be, obviously. But that shouldn't be seen as a, it shouldn't denigrate the objectives of this reform program, which are economic and social. They're real and they're important in terms of establishing a more functioning, a more normal, in many respects, Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabian society, and particularly with regards to women's participation in the workforce, for example, and changes to the education system, which I think will bring longer term benefits in terms of how we think, how we would like the country to evolve.

MG: Let me just bring one more voice into the conversation. Bessma Momani is a professor of political science at the University of Waterloo. Bessma, good morning to you.

BESSMA MOMANI: Good morning.

MG: What do you make of Ottawa's re-engagement with Saudi Arabia now?

BESSMA MOMANI: I mean, I think it's driven by business ties and money. There's a lot of economic opportunity in Saudi Arabia today. They are undergoing a huge transformation in infrastructure building and the rest. There's just, I think, a shortage of really good business opportunities globally at the moment with the global economy just, I think, sputtering along. But Saudi Arabia and a number of other countries tend to be the ones with really terrible human rights records are the ones that are really growing and investing in infrastructure and development that attract a lot of Canadian businesses. So I think this is really driven by business opportunity. But to the previous comments said, this is sportswashing and Saudi Arabia knows it and is really trying to change the conversation from a terrible foreign policy record. To Denis's point, there's been a lot of improvement domestically, but it's still very much, I would say, overall, a repressive society. And despite all the changes and improvements internally, I think it's going to be an uphill battle for Saudi Arabia to change the headlines.

MG: What do you see as the progress internally that Saudi Arabia has made on human rights?

BESSMA MOMANI: Oh, I think it has improved in many ways. I mean, as Dennis noted, for women, certainly, the most sort of high profile issue of them being banned from driving is now over, their engagement in the economy. So opportunities to work has increased. Things aren't, I think, at the level of equality. Far from that. There's a lot of guardianship laws, they're called, that really still discriminate against women. But, you know, I think what is really difficult for us to understand is that I'd say for 95% of most Saudis, things have gotten a lot better, freer, less restrictions on movement. I mean, freedom of thought and expression, I would say actually has gotten worse. But this is where we often, I think, have a challenge here in that, you know, that's a really important, I mean, certainly for me, for probably all of the guests on this call and certainly for you, you know, being able to say and express yourself politically is such an important part of our identity. But, you know, for the vast majority of people, you know, politics isn't their number one priority. It's really bread and butter issues. And that is absolutely improving in Saudi Arabia. People I know who live in the kingdom say that things are much better and really do think highly of Mohammed bin Salman, which is, again, a shocker for all of us and the terrible things that he's done, including, you know, I think probably, you know, orchestrating the murder of Jamal Khashoggi.

MG: You can apply the label of greenwashing to it. But to your point, what impact do those soft power moves, whether it's buying a soccer team or investing in a golf league or perhaps looking at, you know, a World Cup bid, what does that do for Saudi Arabia?

BESSMA MOMANI: Well, it certainly, I think, attract businesses. Don't get me wrong, I think there is a real genuine interest in investing in the kingdom. It's hard to ignore the trillion dollars being put into infrastructure building and the rest. And in many countries, I mean, I think for us in the West, we tend to stand on our, you know, moral high ground and think very highly of, you know, Western liberal values. But for other countries, there is this sort of yawn that, you know, the West, you know, hypocritically applies it when it's valuable. And Saudi Arabia was the ire of the West because of Khashoggi, but, you know, we ignore the death and murder of other journalists in other parts of the world and certainly don't give the same attention that we did to Khashoggi. So there is this feeling that the West does have double standards and is hypocritical and certainly not universal in its application of condemning human rights abuses, which, you know, is, I think, a broader challenge we face today, which is the rise of the autocrats globally and the liberal democracies. I mean, where are we going to stop? Are we not going to deal with Poland, Hungary, Turkey, dare I say, the United States increasingly? I mean, this is a challenge that we're globally going to have to deal with, which is, you know, the rise of autocrats and populist nationalists that have terrible human rights record.

MG: Dennis, how do we figure out how to thread that needle?

DENNIS HORAK: Well, I think at the end of the day, it comes down to, you know, what are our national interests? What are the things that we want to get out to help Canada? As Bessma said, the club of countries that have acceptable human rights or that are sort of in the good column is shrinking. And we can limit ourselves to those countries, but it's certainly not going to serve our interests to do so. So we do have to make compromises. What we can try and do is push along the edges, push along the fringes to try and make things better, to try and influence countries to go in different directions or better yet, to have impacts on the ground. But that's the reality we're living in the world today and we need to deal with it.

MG: Does there need to be a degree of honesty there, though? The Department of Global Affairs recently reported that Saudi Arabia is Canada's second highest export market. Something like $1.15 billion has been sent through that country. Do we need to be honest that this is in some ways, reengaging with them is also about money?

DENNIS HORAK: It certainly is. And I think we do need to be honest about that. And I think we need to be honest about the fact that there are limits to what we can do. But also, we don't have to do everything publicly either. We often had dialogue with Saudi Arabia on human rights. We just didn't necessarily do it on Twitter. And I think being able to have an impact, as I said, on the ground, being able to support educational reforms, being able to support programs or companies that deal with or that have an impact on the role of women in the economy, those are the sorts of impacts we can have that are more meaningful, that affect people's lives as opposed to gaining likes on social media.

MG: Bessma, how much do you expect to see Saudi Arabia's influence grow in the region and beyond in the coming years? You both have mentioned reengaging with Syria, hosting a climate meeting ahead of the next COP conference. So where will Saudi Arabia want to be in that region in five years time, say?

BESSMA MOMANI: Well, I'd say it has already grown. It really has been putting a lot of effort and time and money towards diplomatic efforts. Certainly, it's proportional with Iran with a big part of that because that really takes out a really important contender to its regional prominence. So it is really investing heavily as host to the Arab League. It's really trying to again now even, you know, whitewash its own reputation. So it's trying very hard and to, I think, recognize that a lot of the development that they have internally requires a lot of foreign investment. They simply don't have enough internal capital to do it all. And if they're going to attract foreign investment, they need to change the headlines away from the disastrous foreign policy that they've, you know, advanced, particularly the war in Yemen and the Khashoggi affair, which, you know, is not going away in the minds or memory of many people, but it's limited. I think if you are expecting Saudi Arabia to become Switzerland overnight, that's not going to happen. But I do want to caution us to not be so pessimistic because for the average Saudi and people living in the kingdom, it's a much better place that resembles more like Dubai than it did Afghanistan, which was the case, I'd say, 10 years ago, 15 years ago.

MG: And Dennis, we're just about out of time, but in some ways, it does seem as though this is a country that is too big to dismiss, too big to simply steer clear of.

DENNIS HORAK: I think that's right. They have an impact on the global oil market. They do have an impact regionally and that region is important to the world. So they are too big to ignore. Absolutely.

MG: Really appreciate both of you being here this morning. This is fascinating. Thank you very much.

DENNIS HORAK: Thank you.

BESSMA MOMANI: Thank you.

MG: Dennis Horak was the last Canadian ambassador to Saudi Arabia. He served from 2015 through 2018. Bessma Momani is a professor of political science. She's at the University of Waterloo. Well, coming up after your regional update.

SOUNDCLIP

HEIDI JACOBS: The Black Neighbourhood in Chatham, this was much, much more than just a baseball game. This was their sons and brothers going on to a provincial stage and doing really, really well. And the legacy of that team lives on.

MG: The fascinating story of the all black baseball team from Chatham, Ontario, that won big and claimed a piece of history in 1934. It's a bit of history that perhaps you don't know about. We'll tell it to you coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. Stay with us.

[Music: Theme]

CHATHAM ALL-STARS

Guests: Heidi Jacobs, Don Tabron, Blake Harding

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway and you are listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

FERGUSON JENKINS JR: My father played baseball from 1925 to the 1940s in the Ontario Baseball League and also the Negro League. His opportunity to play professional ball was limited by history of that era. Fortunately, he outlived history and witnessed this change. His sacrifice in baseball has been my reward by my achievements.

MG: The great Ferguson Jenkins Jr. was the first Canadian ever inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame. That day was July 21st, 1991.

SOUNDCLIP

FERGUSON JENKINS JR: This day belongs also to my father. He was my first teacher. He inspired me. He was a great outfielder. He was known as Hershey. It was my father who taught me to be conscientious and responsible. It was my father who instilled the love of baseball in me. So on this day, I'm not only being inducted alone, I'm being inducted with my father, Fergie Jenkins Senior, Hershey.

[audience applauding]

MG: His dad, Fergie Jenkins senior, was a member of a minor league all black baseball team from Chatham, Ontario, that grabbed greatness one incredible season nine decades ago. The story of that team is captured in a new book called “1934: The Chatham Coloured All-Stars Barrier Breaking Year”. Heidi Jacobs is the author and she is joined this morning by descendants of two of the team's players. Don Tabron, whose dad, also named Don, was a pitcher and shortstop for the All-Stars in 1934, and Blake Harding, whose dad, Boomer, played first base for the team. Good morning, everyone.

ALL GUESTS: Good morning.

MG: Blake Harding, what does it mean to hear Fergie Jenkins talk that way about his father and the team that your own father played for?

BLAKE HARDING: It's really satisfying. I grew up a couple of years behind Fergie. He played a lot of minor league ball in Sterling Park, which is right across the street from where the All-Stars played and where I grew up. And I got to know Fergie quite well. And everything he's accomplished, he deserves. But it's a recognition of a time and element that he grew up in and that our fathers and uncles and relatives, friends all contributed to greatly in setting an example and a role model for Fergie and a lot of other young men, as well as myself and my cousins and people growing up in the east end of Chatham at that time.

MG: What did you hear, and I’ll ask you both this, but Blake, what did you hear from your dad about that time in that team?

BLAKE HARDING: A lot of men of colour in the 40s didn't share any experiences that could be painful with their family members. My dad didn't talk a lot, but he talked a lot about his time with the Coloured All-Stars. I had the privilege of listening to him and he shared a lot of those stories.

MG: Don, what about for you? What did it mean for your father to be a part of that team in 1934?

DON TABRON: Well, at that time period, it meant a lot to him. He was from the United States, from the Detroit area, and travelled over to Canada and spent a few years there. And that was during a time in America that the Great Depression was going on and he was able to, you know, play the game that he loved and be able to get away from some fairly harsh time periods in the States and gained a number of, you know, great friends and a lot of camaraderie playing the game of baseball that he loved.

MG: Heidi, this is a fascinating story, in part because of the community that it takes place in. Take us back to Chatham, Ontario, in 1934. What was that town like?

HEIDI JACOBS: Chatham is an interesting town in that it's not too far from the U.S. border and it's close to Windsor and it's close to Walpole Island, and it's close to a whole range of black settlements of freedom seekers who came from the U.S. around 1850. And so it's an interesting place. The neighbourhood in which the ballpark is located is called the East End of Chatham, and it's the historically black neighbourhood in town. And it's interesting because it’s sort of hived off a little bit by the train track. So it was a very self-contained community. And in the centre of the east end of Chatham was Sterling Park. It had a ballpark, but it also had a swimming pool and playground and all sorts of things. And it really was the sort of geographic centre of the community, but also the social and cultural centre. So the baseball team playing there really was a key part of that community and it makes sense that the community rallied around this team so much then and now.

MG: You say that there are very few places in North America where this team could have formed. What was going on, and part of this is about Chatham being a home for freedom seekers, terminus of the Underground Railroad. What was going on in that community at that time that led to those conditions?

HEIDI JACOBS: I think as Donald mentioned, you know, this was also the time of the Depression. So we also had a number of men who in their records, they say we had a lot of spare time and baseball was the thing to do. And so baseball was huge at this time. It gave the community something to hope for and cheer for. And I think when you look at the team and its success, part of it was that it came out of those difficult times and it gave the community something to cheer for and be proud of and be hopeful about the future. And indeed, I think descendants and people who've known the players have really talked about how important that team was as inspiration to give them hope that there's possibility and that things could change. And I think that baseball team gave people something to cheer for and something to be really proud of. And that's one of the things that really comes through now when you talk to people about the importance of the All-Stars.

MG: What, Don, did you know about the kind of prejudice and the kind of racism that the men on this team faced as a team, as a team of black baseball players?

DON TABRON: Well, my father had many a conversation with me over the years in regards to just that. You know, he being from the Detroit area, which was very segregated at the time, was used to staunch racism, frankly, but mentioned on many occasions that while the environment in Canada was more pleasant than that in the States at the time, depending on, you know, where they travelled and the teams they played against, they would face, you know, a bit of adversity from, you know, the crowd, the umpires, you know, the opposing team. So, you know, he always talked about it probably in regards to things that they were able to overcome and used baseball and their talents to help overcome them.

MG: Blake, what about for you? As you say, men of your father's generation in some ways didn't talk about some of the difficult things they went through. But what did he tell you about what they were up against?

BLAKE HARDING: In a local community not too far to Chatham, they were playing one day and they won the game. And as they were leaving, there was five and six-year-old kids spitting and throwing stones at him, calling him the N-word, and their parents were standing behind them egging them on. And this is the type of thing that they had to endure. And this may have been an extreme at this one community, but it was quite prevalent through southwestern Ontario, especially when they lost, you know, there would be ridicule. If they won, people looked at him as kind of a real novelty. But he spoke to me several times about it and he always remembered. And he was doing an interview with a London reporter one time called Ernie Miller, he was quite known around southwestern Ontario, and Ernie asked him, what do you think kept him out of sport, out of professional sport? And he just rubbed his arm and said, my skin tone. He wasn't bitter, but he was a realist and he passed that on to me and my children, I think. As you see it, you accept it and you deal with it.

MG: Was it hard for you to understand that he wouldn't be bitter by something like that?

BLAKE HARDING: No, not actually, because my dad was a very quiet man and they would give what they got. They were a very proud baseball team and they were together. Don spoke of the camaraderie they had. Lots of times, like when Don's father moved down here, he stayed with the Harding family for a while until he got settled in with the team. And I don't think they were bitter. Like I said, they were a realist. And when they talked, when my dad talked to me and my uncles talked to me, I got that feeling is okay, you know, not everything's fair. Not everything's fair in a game of baseball, but you carry on with it and you keep your head. You know, they were a very proud team.

MG: Heidi, during that 1934 season, how did the local paper in Chatham cover the All-Stars?

HEIDI JACOBS: I am deeply indebted, I think, to the columnist Jack Calder, because it was documented meticulously. Calder was a brilliant sportswriter. And I think it's probably surprising for us today to see how deeply sports, not just baseball was covered in the local paper, but all sports were covered. And you really see, Calder was a white reporter. He was the same age as Boomer Harding and he captured this season really well. But there's always sort of this subtext. And in some ways, some things, when you look at them with a different lens through history, you start to see that what Blake was talking about, the team giving as good as they got. There are a couple editorials about how the All-Stars were playing too roughly, too aggressively. And when you start to think about why that might be, you start to think some of these incidents are racialized and that's what's happening. And there's an editorial from someone who signs themselves a coloured fan who really points out, you know, you're reporting on the roughness, but you're not reporting on why this is happening. And so I think history gives us that perspective, that lends to see the actions on the field were not as fully reported as they might have been, but that tension is certainly there. There's reports of, you know, some incidents in the crowd after the game and during the game. And they don't say why, But I think we can start to piece things together knowing what we do from the memories of the players and their descendants.

MG: Well, I was going to say, I mean, we heard a little bit about this in terms of abuse that some of the players faced. Broadly, what was the environment that this team played in? How welcome was this team when it was playing against white opponents, for example?

HEIDI JACOBS: It depends, as Blake said, if they were the winning team or the losing team. There's some incidents that happened. Obviously, Canada didn't have the sort of formal segregation that we associate with the U.S., but there was certainly a de facto segregation. They never knew where they could stay out of town or where they could eat. And so they had to be pretty flexible about that. There are also stories of after beating the local team, how they got chased out of town with, you know, rakes and hoes and all that kind of stuff. So that was a reality for the team. But Blake has also in one of his interviews talked about how, you know, they were sort of seen as a novelty coming to different towns. A lot of people had never seen black baseball teams or probably black people. So people came out to see them. And one of the things that happened is they earned respect by how strong they were on the field and what an impressive team they were. The team came out on the field and demanded that they be respected as athletes and competitors and as men and citizens. And I think all of these things were really wrapped up in this baseball team.

MG: There were real stars on this team, Blake. Tell us about Flatt Chase, which is a great name for a baseball player. Who was he?

BLAKE HARDING: He was a top player. He was a hard player, but he had phenomenal skills. Like if you were going to pick one player out of that team that would have made Major League Baseball, and there was probably about four or five that could have made it, but Flat Chase stood out as a pitcher. He had an arm that was just unbelievable. My dad said he was throwing back in the 40s almost 100 mile an hour fastball, which was unheard of. And he hit a ball, folklore says he hit balls so far that they never found them. You know, he was a monster of a man on the field. And he knew he was a tough man out of that era. He knew what he had to do to survive and look after his family, which speaks of all the players. I watched him in the later years actually. I was a back boy for one of the teams that morphed from the Coloured All-Stars in the 50s, and he was still playing then hard as nails. Hard as nails.

MG: Well, I mean, you say that he could have played in the major leagues. One of the reasons, of course, or the reason that he and those other players wouldn’t have played was because of the colour barrier in Major League Baseball.

BLAKE HARDING: Definitely. You know, it wasn't even a… Don't forget this was well before Jackie Robinson. They accepted their fate. They were showmen and they put on a show. They were entertainers. But Flat Chase, he could go out there and, you know, today in major leagues, if you get five innings out of a starter, six innings, you're doing well and it's every fourth day, and he’d pitch today and he’d pitch tomorrow.

MG: Don, what happened, what did your father tell you about what happened when this team went to Penetanguishene in Ontario for the best of three playoffs? This is a fascinating story in the book.

DON TABRON: Yeah, absolutely. And I think my father's fondest memories of those games was actually after the games had been played and they returned back to Chatham. And he always spoke So finally about how the citizens of Chatham were waiting on the team to come back and they carried them through the downtown area on the shoulders, celebrating the victory. He spoke about that, the fondness and really more than anything, about one of his favourite moments at that point in his life where, you know, they faced some, you know, fairly insurmountable odds and were able to overcome them. But just how the city embraced them and celebrated the victory and made such a big deal out of it, you know, more than anything, that was his fondest memory that he shared, you know, more than anything else. But in terms of the, you know, the actual games, he mentioned to me that, you know, there was definitely some biased umpiring.

MG: I mean, the game was called in part because of darkness, right?

DON TABRON: That is, so how do I say this? So in my father's opinion, it wasn't dark enough to call the game. And he thought that was a way that the umpires kind of let the other team off the hook, so to speak, in an attempt to elongate their opportunity to try to win the ball game. If memory serves me correct, sounded like we had a bit of momentum and potentially if the game were to continue that evening, we would have a win then. So.

MG: Blake, you had a bit of a laugh in the background there. What did your dad tell you about that?

BLAKE HARDING: His quote was they called The Game on Account of Darkness, but the only darkness was the nine players on the field. And they were up at that time, you know, so that's where he put it. And it was like hitting the nail on the head. I believe Heidi in her research went back and actually checked the weather of that day, that fall day, and it was a sunny day.

MG: Heidi, what does that tell you about what this team was up against in trying to win the championship?

HEIDI JACOBS: What was interesting is, you know, in the third game, it was stopped in the top of the 11^th. And there was, you know, Penetanguishene had won at bat and the All-Stars were ahead. And it's strange to me that they would call a game for darkness in the middle of an inning, especially with just one at bat. So a bunch of things don't quite add up. And this is where oral history becomes really crucial to hear people's memories of the event and people who were there and things like that. And then, of course, the game was reverted. The Stars were ahead 3-2, and then the game when it was called, it was reverted to a 2-2 tie. But the other detail is the next day, they played and they won 13-7. So I think that's a crucial detail in all of this as well.

MG: How engaged do you think the community was, Heidi, in this championship series? How engaged were people in Chatham?

HEIDI JACOBS: I think White Chatham was excited because they thought of themselves as a baseball town, very much so. And so this victory was huge for Chatham. But I think the east end community, the Black Neighbourhood in Chatham, this was much, much more than just a baseball game. This was much more than a provincial championship. This was their sons and brothers and cousins and husbands and boyfriends going on to a provincial stage and doing really, really well. And the legacy of that team lives on. Just go to the east end and mention any of the All-Stars, and there's still huge, huge fans of this team.

MG: Blake, what did your dad tell you about that? Was it a victory that was, you know, more than baseball in some ways for some members of the community?

BLAKE HARDING: Everybody showed up. The park would be full on Sunday afternoon. And, you know, Sunday's was supposed to be a day of rest, but they showed up to support the team and it still lives. It's given kids in the east end something to shoot for all these years later, 80 some years later.

MG: Heidi, after the team wins the championship, you say virtually overnight, it transformed men who had been invisible to white Chatham into men who are claimed, honoured and celebrated. What happened to the team in the wake of that victory?

HEIDI JACOBS: Well, the interesting thing to me is, I mean, the title of the book is the Barrier Breaking Year. And indeed, the team did break some barriers. But as I also say in the book, a barrier broken isn't a barrier dismantled. And so when the team came back in 1935, they were definitely the team to beat on a range of levels, but they still encountered some of the racist incidents that plagued them in the first year, and they didn't ever really go away. So I think when we talk about the 1934 victory, we also have to think about what happened after, what happened in 35, which was again, some pretty horrific racist incidents that are documented in the papers. And then in 1939, they also ran into a lot of disrespect, some unequal expectations about travel. And the All-Stars ended up walking away from a potential victory in 1939 as well, partially just because of the disrespect that was shown to them. So it's a complex history. It's easy to sort of celebrate the 1934 legacy because it's sort of that nice narrative arc of success and triumph, but that victory didn't mean that the issues that they faced in 1934 or before went away. And I think that's an important thing to remember.

MG: The manager of the team, Happy Joe Parker, gives this speech when he is collecting the cup and says, “when a coloured man commits a crime, the whole race is condemned for it. So now that the Chatham All-Stars have done so great a thing in winning, what white teams for years have been striving for, please give us a chance.” Do you think, Blake, that your father got a chance, he got the chance that he deserved after that win?

BLAKE HARDING: I think it developed over a period of time. It didn't happen that day. There were some very prominent businessman in Chatham, and he selected almost like Jackie Robinson, I think, you know, he wasn't the best baseball player to come out of people of colour, but he was the one that could tolerate and fit in to the professional organization and, you know, bear the weight. Well, my uncles, my father and some other gentlemen in Chatham got jobs that were quite significant. My dad was the first black letter carrier. My uncle Andy, his brother was the first police officer, black police officer in Chatham. All these men wanted was recognition of being men. And every one of them on that team were men. There was no boys on that team. And I think the team brought that to public light. And there were some breaks made. Unfortunately, not everybody got a break.

MG: Don, that's quite a statement. All these men really wanted was to be recognized as men, not boys.

DON TABRON: No, that's absolutely correct. My father was one of the younger men on the team, probably aged 17 or 18. And, you know, he always talked about the experience of being around, you know, older gentlemen playing baseball. He spent a lot of time, you know, living with the Harding family, you know, around the Jenkins family, and always spoke fondly of them. And, you know, I can remember even as a very young man, you know, us taking trips back to Chatham, you know, looking to see if we could find the Harding family. You know, driving around Chatham and, you know, kind of pulling over randomly asking people, hey, do you know where the Hardings live? You know, so forth and so on. And it made a big difference in, you know, his life from an experiential perspective. He absolutely loved the time that he spent in Chatham.

MG: When you think of his legacy, what stands out to you? What do you see as your father's mark on history?

DON TABRON: You know, a very interesting question. I often asked and spoke with my dad about that while he was alive. And he was very taken aback by, you know, some of the things at that time that were happening. He was able to throw out the first pitch for the Detroit Tigers at one of their Negro League days and, you know, also for the Blue Jays, of course. And he was really amazed. He was like, wow, I never knew that people would make such a big deal about, you know, I was just loving to play baseball. I loved to play the game. You know, he never really thought about it from that perspective while he was playing that it would materialize into, you know, any of what it has at this point. And, you know, as they began to, you know, make a bit of a deal out of it, as he got older, he was taken by it. And it was very emotional for him because at the time, they were just doing what they loved.

MG: What about for your dad, Blake? Did he see himself, did he see what he had done as being part of history?

BLAKE HARDING: I think he would be in amazement today we're having this interview. They just wanted to be recognized. Now they're recognized around the world. I think my dad would be… I get emotional about it, you know, so I think he would be as well.

MG: Yeah. It's really quite a story. I'm really glad to talk to you both about this and the accomplishments of your fathers and how those accomplishments live through you and through your own children. Thank you very much.

DON TABRON: Thank you.

BLAKE HARDING: You're most welcome.

MG: And Heidi, this is a story that I think a lot of Canadians don't know about and should know about. And so thank you for bringing it to light and for telling us why it matters. Thank you very much.

HEIDI JACOBS: Thank you for having us.

MG: Heidi Jacobs is the author of “1934: The Chatham Coloured All-Stars Barrier Breaking Year”. She was in Windsor along with Don Tabron. Blake Harding is in Chatham. Don and Blake are sons of two members of that Champion All-Stars team. And if you're a baseball fan, on Saturday, Chatham-Kent is celebrating hometown star Fergie Jenkins Jr. They're unveiling a statue of him, a replica of the statue that stands outside Wrigley Field in Chicago. That's The Current for this Thursday. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. If you missed anything, our conversation about interest rates and the impact that that's going to have on Canadians coast to coast to coast, for example, you can find that on the CBC Listen app. We’re going to leave you this morning with some music, a remembrance of sorts for that 1934 All-Star team. It's Nat King Cole and The First Baseball Game. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Song: “The First Baseball Game” by Nat King Cole]

Thursday June 8, 2023 Episode Transcript

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