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The Current Transcript for November 2, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Today is the first day of many days, how ever many days it will take to defend our public health care system.

MATT GALLOWAY: Pots and pans aren't being banged every evening anymore, but health care workers are still being called heroes across this country, which makes the Alberta government's dispute with those workers, in the midst of a pandemic, all the more perplexing to many people. In 30 minutes, inside the roots of this dispute, why some doctors are leaving Alberta and whether their concerns around the privatization of health care are fair. Also this morning, your comments on a powerful conversation we had last week with three residents in long-term care and their fears about the second wave of COVID-19. And later.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: We heard many people shouting in the street, then we heard gun shot, many gun shots and more and more policemen.

MG: Inside a tense few weeks in France after two terror attacks in quick succession. We start though with tension in the United States and the conclusion of our Road to November road trip series. Our radio RV pulls into New Orleans on the eve of the U.S. election and with the pandemic still raging. Life is anything but easy in the Big Easy these days. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

[Music: theme]

Frustrated businesses want more COVID-19 financial help, but say 'New Orleans isn't going anywhere

Guests: Oscar Donahue, Chelsea Janes

SOUNDCLIP

[Sounds from streets of New Orleans]

MG: Close your eyes and you can picture it. You're wandering the French Quarter of New Orleans. That sound filling the humid air. For the past few months we have been travelling in our radio RV down the Mississippi River, talking to regular Americans about this election. And today, in our tenth and final stop on our road to November road trip, we chassé our way into the Big Easy.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound of trumpets]

MG: You arrive in New Orleans, of course, you have to head straight for Bourbon Street, known for its bars, restaurants and of course, fantastic live music. Marty Peters and the Party Meters are busking. They set up across from Lafitte's Blacksmith Shop Bar. It's famous for being the oldest bar in America, opening in the 1700s.There are people who are out on the streets, but the locals estimate it's only about 20 percent of the crowds usually jostling for space. A little further down Bourbon Street, you find another institution in this neighbourhood. The Old Absinthe House first opened its doors as a saloon in 1815. Those doors though, have been closed for the past seven months, just opening up again late last week.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sounds from The Old Absinthe House]

MG: You'll need a big cup these days because everything is to go only. It's not normal, but staff aren't complaining.

VOICE: Today's my first day, our first day back here at the Old Absinthe House. We've been out of work for ah shoot, little over seven months, I believe. Now we're just getting everything going. I haven't been here too long, but it's going to be at least a 12 hour shift today. So, but I'm not complaining. I'm just happy to be working though so. I'm glad to see this place is opening up again, especially this bar in particular. But yeah, everybody's just been real great. Real chill. Happy we're open. Happy they're here.

MG: Chelsea O'Lansen is the marketing and sales manager for the Old Absinthe House.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Right before the pandemic, the last few shifts that I worked were actually during Mardi Gras. So I managed about 20 events on Bourbon Street. We had 2000 people come in and out of our doors. And to go from that to being at home isolated was a pretty stark change of pace. One of the last shifts that I had was with a bachelor party and I remember standing on the balcony with them and them going there was no girls taking their shirts off. There's no one downstairs on the street. The phase that we're in now is extremely challenging because we do have the doors open, we have the fireplace blazing and we have our bartenders behind the barn. People are very excited to come in. People have definitely been, you know, taking a bit of time to say hi to the bartenders that they've known for the past 10 years that they do find behind the bar, but it does have to be a to-go transaction at this point in reopening.

MG: While it's great to be open again, Chelsea O'Lansen is worried about the future for this historic area. She's hoping for another round of stimulus support after the election, money specifically for restaurants and for the hospitality industry.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I think that the first round of payments were very much needed, but that no one anticipated how long this thing would last, how severe it would be. So we were looking at initially, what, like two months of lockdown? And it's just been extremely challenging to keep something afloat that is cherished as kind of a citywide historical relic. Like the Old Absinthe House has changed hands many times, and there's always someone eager to step up to the plate, but I do fear that that won't be the case because of the unique conditions of COVID and the kind of economic havoc it's wreaked.

MG: So we'll take our pints to go. It is, as they say, five o'clock somewhere and we'll stroll further down Bourbon Street. Come across a bit more music. There's two drummers and six plastic buckets that are turned upside down.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound of drumming]

VOICE: Well, right now, lights off. It's tragic in the city, everybody going broke. Barely no money in the bucket. I'm a professional drummer. I'm Tyrell, trying to be a local rapper. I mean, like we can't really too much have huge gathering and stuff like that or the police will shut everything down. Like we're trying to get our city open right now. Everything is just everything is out of proportion right now. Our city is trying to get over surely for surely, you know, what I'm saying. But Bourbon Street, Bourbon Street looking good. You know, what I'm saying? Bourbon Street looking Sam excellent right now. That's the only place that got people that we could really come out and have fun with right now at this time. Alright.

MG: New Orleans is a blast, despite these difficult times. We are not here though for the sightseeing. We have made it this far down the Mississippi to talk about that little thing that's happening on Tuesday.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: What's Tuesday?

VOICE 2: Tuesday's the election.

VOICE 1: Oh, man. I'ma tell you right now. I aint going for Trump. We don't want Trump to win. We going for Biden. Alright. Everybody. Everybody, if you could hear me and you understand me right now, we voting for Biden alright. Cause Trump trying to shut everything down for us. We aint going to be able to do nothing if Trump stay president. We don't want four more years of Trump. He looking at me. He a Trump fan. We outta here. We gonna help this man get some more interviews. Alright? Come back with us later. We gonna have more people to interview, alright.

MG: I think we have caused enough trouble on Bourbon Street for now. It is a short walk to the French market still in the French Quarter, and it's there in the market that you'll find Oscar Donahue, he's been selling his handcrafted jewellery here for 35 years. Oscar, good morning.

OSCAR DONAHUE: Good morning.

MG: Describe what you see around you in the market right now.

OSCAR DONAHUE: Well, you know, the market is a vibrant place. It's at the end of the French Quarter and it's like one of the great tourist destinations. When things are busy, it's like shoulder to shoulder people here. At this time of the morning though, and because of the COVID thing, it's just a few people out here, right now. It's just very quiet.

MG: I was going to say, pre-COVID, how many people would be passing through your part of the city?

OSCAR DONAHUE: Pre-COVID, let's say 5, maybe 10,000 people a day would be coming through here, especially on a Friday. The weekends are usually the busiest. On a day like today, if we can get a couple of thousand people that will be great. Again, this is post-COVID and we're taking what we can get right now. Certainly a different situation. Not like it used to be.

MG: What happened to you and your booth at the market when the pandemic hit? Because it seemed like for a lot of people, life changed overnight. So for you, what was that like?

OSCAR DONAHUE: It really did. It was abrupt. On March 12th, the French Market abruptly closed and it was shocking. There was no warning, no preparation. It was closed until the first week of July. And even then, when it first opened, the city was a ghost town. Okay. So, it really took two months, you know July was a wash out. August was about the same. A few people started trickling back in September, and only now are there more warm bodies and more people coming. Still not what it used to be, but again, we're thankful, especially the people like me that showed up as soon as they opened back up.

MG: How were you able to get by?

OSCAR DONAHUE: The day after they shut me down I went online, took advantage of the social media. I've got the Facebook and Instagram thing. And I started letting people know that, hey, you need to back me up. So I was blessed that I was able to stay busy, busy meaning being able to just survive and, you know, keep my head above water. The market reopened and it used to be seven days a week. Now it's four days a week.

MG: If this closure continues for the next couple of months, because nobody really knows where this is going to go, what could you lose in the city?

OSCAR DONAHUE: Well look, we've lost several small businesses and people that where things were normal and things are truly not the same here at the market. Behind me, there's a couple of retail shops that have closed, a couple of restaurants and they may never return. So there has been a tremendous loss of people that, you know, weren't able to generate business. One of the great streets, Frenchmen Street that has like seven or eight nightclubs and bars, only yesterday did I see a limited opening where you know you're not supposed to still have live music, but they had a couple of outdoor tables and serving drinks to go, and there was a lady on the balcony singing. And people were so starved for music, they flocked around and loved it.

MG: Do you worry about the spirit of New Orleans being damaged by this?

OSCAR DONAHUE: We survived Katrina. It took a year of this total devastation to get back to normal. I'm confident that the spirit here remains, and the fact that people here are determined to make sure the city is going to survive. It took a hit and like I said, this summer has been quite stressful with all these threats of hurricanes. But it'll continue. New Orleans isn't going anywhere.

MG: Have you had support, or the support that you need from the government in the midst of all this?

OSCAR DONAHUE: In March, they gave out a $1,200 stimulus cheque, which was, of course, immediately gobbled up. I'm disappointed. I see how other countries have been helping people on a monthly basis, restoring a sense of normalcy. That's not the case here. Again, I can't express my frustration and disappointment that the leadership here didn't take more aggressive steps to help regular people. I know too many of my artist friends that literally have lost their homes, had to move back in with family or you know they had to give up their business, because it's just too difficult.

MG: How are you feeling as you look to Election Day?

OSCAR DONAHUE: I'm extremely apprehensive because of the volatile climate that this president has created. I'm concerned that he's enabled some domestic terrorists here to make threats that if they're not happy with the election, you know, they're going to start shooting. So I worry that all hell is gonna break loose, like never before in history. This is certainly the most difficult election, I think, we're facing. And I hope that my best case scenario is that he loses by a landslide, and so there's no question.

MG: Have you voted yet?

OSCAR DONAHUE: Yeah.

MG: And do you mind me asking who you voted for?

OSCAR DONAHUE: You know, It's time for change. So let's just say I didn't vote for Trump.

MG: OK. You know, unless you wrote in somebody else's name, why did you vote for Joe Biden?

OSCAR DONAHUE: Because like many, many people, we want a sense of normalcy to come back. OK. We'd like for the United States to regain the respect it once had internationally where we're not considered a laughing stock, OK, and an embarrassment. And I've got friends all over the world who are certainly well aware of what's going on here because, you know, the United States is supposed to set the standard and show what it means to have a great democracy.

MG: What's it, I mean if you dig deep, what's at stake for your country in this election, do you think?

OSCAR DONAHUE: The consequences would be really severe if this guy is allowed to remain as president. I'm just concerned about the environmental impact, the fact that he's taken away so many restrictions that allow people in the oil and gas industry to literally just run roughshod over things that we're put into place. These people in this administration ignore science.

MG: You know, voting in some ways is kind of like an act of hope where you have an idea, and this is where you want to go, and you mark your ballot thinking you were going to get there.Your city's been through a lot and you mentioned Katrina, and then you have a pandemic and then you have another hurricane that arrives. What is it that keeps your spirits up in the midst of all this?

OSCAR DONAHUE: You know, I keep things in a universal perspective that, you know, we're just grains of sand in the universe and we're just here for a very, very short period of time. And you can choose door number one and be miserable and bitch and moan, or you can just be thankful for the things that we have. And that's that's where I try to focus. I really do try to focus on good things. OK. Good things, good people. And there are good people out there all over the world, everywhere. And it's a shame that just a few corrupt, you know, evil people seem to be in charge and taking advantage of all these opportunities.

MG: But you're looking at it with the glass half full?

OSCAR DONAHUE: Oh, yeah.

MG: I wish you the best of luck and appreciate your time this morning, Oscar, good luck selling the jewellery and hopefully the city comes back the way it should be.

OSCAR DONAHUE: Thank you, sir. My pleasure.

MG: Take care of yourself. Bye bye.

OSCAR DONAHUE: Bye bye.

MG: Oscar Donahue has been selling his jewellery at the popular French market in New Orleans for 35 years. In New Orleans, the last stop on our Road to November radio road trip. That election, of course, is tomorrow. The weekend saw a flurry of rallies and attempts to connect with as many voters as possible. The president, Donald Trump and Democratic candidate Joe Biden saw a lot of the Midwest, Wisconsin, Michigan, Minnesota and the key state of Pennsylvania. Chelsea Janes is a reporter with The Washington Post covering the presidential campaign. She is in Washington, D.C. Chelsea, good morning to you.

CHELSEA JANES: Good morning. Thanks for having me.

MG: Thanks for joining us. How would you characterise this past weekend?

CHELSEA JANES: You know, I think fraught and frantic and a lot of ways, I think both in terms of the pace of campaigning for President Trump and to some extent the Democrats. And I think just in terms of the mood, people getting out to vote in huge numbers and people sort of bracing for impact on Tuesday.

MG: Just briefly, there were a couple of incidents, I think it's worth mentioning. One, on Saturday, a march to the polls was organized and people were were pepper sprayed and arrested. What happened there?

CHELSEA JANES: It's hard to say. You know, I mean, I think from what we can tell, it's exactly what you said, that there were people, you know, marching supposedly peacefully to the polls and they were pepper sprayed, you know, by local officials who were trying to sort of, I guess, quell unrest. As with a lot of these things, it sort of takes a few days to sort out exactly what happened, but I think that is our understanding of what's happened. And it is in keeping with some of what we've seen from some local law enforcement departments around the country over the last few months.

MG: The other incident was in Texas. A Biden-Harris campaign bus carrying staffers, but not the candidates, was surrounded by a convoy of Trump supporters and trucks. There was a campaign event in Texas that was also cancelled. What do you make of that?

CHELSEA JANES: You know, I think it's part of what's contributing to the fears that people have here. You know, that campaign bus incident sort of explains why the Biden campaign has been very secretive in terms of their plans. They've not even let reporters know whether events are. And I think for a long time, everyone was pretty puzzled about that. And you just don't expect to have to worry about violence or interference with events in the United States, but I think that is part of what they had been thinking all along. And, you know, those fears seem justified. It's one incident, but it's something like we've never seen before here and I think people are very nervous that there is more to come.

MG: How real are those concerns around violence? I mean, on Fridays, our businesses across the country. You're in D.C. I've seen images in D.C. of of buildings being boarded up. People are worried about the violence after this election. How real are those concerns, do you think?

CHELSEA JANES: Again, it's so hard to know, but I think the best way to put it is that they're more real than they've ever been for a lot of people. I think, you know, at least for a few generations, this is the most fear people have sensed coming into an election. And part of that is that the president has sort of tried to undermine its legitimacy and rile up his supporters, to suggest that if Democrats when they stole the election. And I think, you know, that's part of the fear here. That whatever the outcome, you know, someone's going to feel it's a legitimate and act on that and we've seen Trump supporters take those steps. So far, we have not seen quite the same reaction from Joe Biden supporters. But, you know, I think people just don't know what to expect. And short of a blow-out one way or the other, it's going to be close then and people are going to try to argue that the election is there.

MG: The president said yesterday, the night of the election, we're going in with our lawyers. What do you think that means?

CHELSEA JANES: You know, I think it's in keeping with what he's signalled all along, which is that he is going to try to use the courts to help him win. And if he is losing in terms of votes, you know, he has signalled that he is going to try to delegitimize some of those votes, whether it's votes that, you know, are counted after Election Day like they always have been or you know, whether it's the people voting or how they voted or are with, you know, a variety of ways that he has tried to suggest that various ballots will be illegitimate. And you know that the Republicans have already made many challenges on all the levels of court to try to get various ballots thrown out or limit the number of polling places. Many of those have been rejected as dubious by the court so far, but I think President Trump plans to try to keep the election close enough that he can use the full power of his legal team to try to take it somehow.

MG: People are looking very carefully at polls and there are national polls, but there are also polls in those swing states that I mentioned off the top. In what states do you think there could be a shift from how people voted in 2016?

CHELSEA JANES: I think right now the expectation is that the upper Midwest will flip back from Trump. You know, Wisconsin, Michigan, Minnesota, which which didn't flip. But I think, you know, those states I think the Democrats feel they have made a substantial play for and the polls are favourable. I think Pennsylvania is going to be the key state that everyone's got an eye on. That went for Trump memorably in 2016 and the Democrats are, you know, all the Democratic candidates and their spouses are out in Pennsylvania today and I think that's one they hope that they can steal back. But, you know, I think that upper Midwest is going to be crucial. Arizona is another state people have their eye on and North Carolina. Florida seems like a toss up, a state that went for Trump that could go Democrat. But I think the other part of all these polls that we're seeing on the state level is just that nobody really knows how much to trust them, because in 2016, they said similar things to what they're saying now, and the outcome was drastically different.

MG: Just in the remaining minute that we have or so more than 90 million people have already voted in this election. What does that tell you?

CHELSEA JANES: The energy is tremendous. You know, in an ideal world, you want as many people to vote as possible, and it seems that that energy has been here and has been here, you know, in the midst of a pandemic, which I think people weren't sure about. I don't think they knew what they'd see. And I guess what that number tells me is that we're going to find out what a high turnout actually means for this democracy, you know what that turnout means. For a long time, we've thought that a higher turnout would benefit Democrats. And I guess we will see if that's the case or if in key states that it doesn't matter. And, you know, Trump is able to, you know, avoid potentially the popular vote again and then win the Electoral College. But I think high turnout, you know, this is an energy we haven't seen and I think that leads to a lot of the fears that we have, but also a lot of the hopes on behalf of a lot of people.

MG: It's going to be a wild 48 hours. Chelsea, thank you.

CHELSEA JANES: Thank you.

MG: Chelsea Janes, a reporter with The Washington Post. You're CBC News is next. And then.

CHELSEA JANES: [sc]

VOICE: We are out here to let this government know that we will not tolerate this abuse. It's shameful. It is so shameful.

MG: Workers in Alberta's health care system aren't happy with their working conditions and their government and now we're seeing wildcat strikes in the midst of a pandemic. We head to the frontlines and the picket lines of Alberta in six minutes. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. Stick around.

[Music]

Alberta health-care workers 'drawing the line' on further privatization: union leader

Guests: Guy Smith, Trevor Tombe, Lorian Hardcastle

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: theme]

MG: Still to come, after two deadly attacks in France, the government there says it will crackdown on radical Islam. Many people worry that this rhetoric will instead further fuel Islamophobia. But first, the fight in Alberta's health care system.

[Music: theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: We're starting a movement today and that movement is the stand up to Kenney.

[Crowd chants "Stand up to Kenney"]

MG: Those are very angry hospital workers in Alberta last Monday. Support staff at hospitals across the province walked off the job in what was declared illegal strike action. They were protesting the provincial government's plan to cut up to 11,000 healthcare jobs. Most of the people work in laboratory cleaning and food services. Those jobs will be outsourced to private companies. The health minister says it could save up to $600 million annually. This was the latest move in a push by the United Conservative Party to tackle rising health care costs and all this as the province sets a new record high of COVID-19 cases last week.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: When you talk about a chainlink, for example, and you take one link out, it breaks. And that's what this government is doing. It's trying to break apart health care so it can be sold off to the highest bidder.

VOICE 2: We have to stand firm and fight. And fight together.

VOICE 3: This is not only for us or for myself. It's for everybody. We're fighting for our right. They're cutting us big time and you don't know, next day, you wake up without job.

VOICE 4: You know what? We just want everybody else to come on out. We're getting going. I think there's something to stand on. We're supporting each other here. We've always supported each other. So we're happy to keep going and keep fighting the fight.

MG: Guy Smith is the president of the Alberta Union of Provincial Employees and represents those workers. Joins us now. Guy Smith, good morning.

GUY SMITH: Morning, Matt. Pleasure to be with you.

MG: Glad to have you. These strikes were declared illegal. Why were workers walking in the first place?

GUY SMITH: Well, quite honestly, Matt, the frustration and anger amongst the workers in Alberta and in this case health-care work has been building for over a year due to the aggressive moves of this government in terms of legislation that takes away their collective bargaining rights. And also the push towards privatization and that boiling pot boiled over a week ago, mostly on the back of a very reckless and provocative announcement by the health minister about three weeks ago that 11,000 jobs will be cut, privatized, contracted out starting next March. And then on the Friday before the strike started, they actually put into place the process to privatize laundry services as well. So very reckless move, especially when we're all trying to deal with the pandemic, but the frustration just boiled over at that point.

MG: Is it responsible to go on strike in the midst of a pandemic when the health care system is already stretched to the breaking point?

GUY SMITH: Well I think it's responsible for workers to stand up and try and protect the public health care system in Alberta. They see the the moves to privatize those 11,000 jobs as the first step, the thin edge of the wedge to further privatization. So really, this is a fight for the future of Alberta and health-care. And many of our members are also, you know, frustrated about the government's response to the COVID pandemic. Our members are being overworked. They're burning out. Alberta health services is not replacing vacant positions or vacancies. So, I mean, they're already stretched to the limit. And it's just a cumulation of the anger that has been felt out there.

MG: The government says that many of these jobs won't be cut, just moved to the private sector and services like hospital laundry are already largely privatized anyway, and then that was a move by the previous NDP government. What's your response to that?

GUY SMITH: Well, actually, the previous government put in place a process to actually stop encroaching privatization in laundry. But yes, you're right Matt, over the last 20 years, laundry services have been moved to corporations and privatized. But I guess these workers are drawing a line in the sand as to, you know, the further erosion of the public health-care system has to stop. And, you know, you're right, they may get jobs with the private companies. These are already low-paid workers, but they do have a union contract. They do have some benefits. They do have some protection. They know that by working for a private company, the only way that company is going to make profits is by cutting their salaries even more. And these workers are taking a stand. Most of them are women. A lot of them are new Canadians. They're already marginalized and they tthey're standing up for themselves.

MG: You said that there were concerns around further privatization. What evidence is there of that within the health-care system? Jason Kenney, when in the midst of a campaign was on a stage with some sort of giant, you know, board that he signed saying that he would protect public health care. So what evidence is there that there is further privatization in the works?

GUY SMITH: Well, there's legislation that recently passed and this is what I'm saying, this provocative legislation that keeps coming in during a pandemic where they're looking at establishing standalone private clinics for surgeries and that sort of thing. So there's no doubt about it, it's part of the UCP agenda, long has been, regardless of what Jason Kenney promised during the campaign. He's obviously now reneged on that promise.

MG: So you're saying that his promise was worthless?

GUY SMITH: It seems like he's not being held to that promise. So I guess in that sense, it is worthless, yes.

MG: The province is facing this huge funding deficit when it comes to health care and it's only getting bigger as the population ages. I mean, this is happening across the country, but particularly in Alberta, the costs are high. How should the government address that deficit, if not by outsourcing some of the jobs that would save something like $600 million every year?

GUY SMITH: Well, we dispute those numbers. I mean, no one's ever been able to clearly show the contracting out and privatization actually saves any money because, you know, those companies that take on these projects have to make a profit and they're making profits off the taxpayer dollars. So there's no evidence and, you know, even worldwide that it saves money and there's a concern about the quality of services. But in Alberta, you know, things are costs more here anyway because of the economy historically. But you see the UCP handing out billions of dollars in tax credits to major corporations, mostly in the energy sector, trying to squeeze the public sector dry. And historically, over a number of governments, it just has not, spending hasn't kept up to population growth and demand. And we're seeing, obviously, that ramping up even more, Matt. So there are ways to be able to redirect funding, I think to the front lines. The government is just not interested in that.

MG: So what would that be? I mean, again, if the costs, if there is a funding deficit and the costs keep going up, where should that money come from?

GUY SMITH: Well, we need to look at how services are funded in the province. We have a very low tax regime when it comes to corporations, and it's getting even lower under the UCP government. There's billions of dollars being left on the table or in corporate boardrooms across the province and around the world where these corporations come from. And it's it's not being generated to, you know, services to the people of the province. So there needs to be a reckoning, I guess, with the tax structure that applies to the rich and the wealthy. They're not paying their fair share and Albertans are suffering as a result.

MG: What does it mean to have these workers at odds with the provincial government in the midst of a pandemic? I think there are a lot of people outside of his immediate fight who would be scratching their heads wondering why this is happening now.

GUY SMITH: It's happening now because the government is being provocative and reckless with their continued push towards privatization, their continued push to bringing in legislation that erodes workers rights and using the pandemic as a shield to do that. I can tell you really all our members want to do on the front lines, whether it's health care, government services or in education, they just want to help Albertans through this pandemic, which, as you mentioned at the top of the interview, is getting worse in Alberta. That's their focus. They're very proud of the work they do, so they just want the government to back off with the attacks, let us continue to do the work and get Albertans through this pandemic. And then we'll deal with the issues as they arise later on. But the focus right now is the pandemic.

MG: In the meantime, where does this go from here? There are calls from some people for a general strike. Is something like that possible?

GUY SMITH: Well, you don't call a general strike, you build it. And I know that there's been, you know, calls for this over the past year. We know that and are able to organize our members whether when they go back to the bargaining table, it takes a lot of on the ground shopfloor organizing. So there won't be a general strike, in my opinion, unless all unions engage in that. But I can tell you the level of frustration amongst not just union members, but Albertans in general towards this government is starting to grow.

MG: Guy Smith, it's good to speak with you about this. We'll leave it there. Thank you.

GUY SMITH: Thanks. Great pleasure.

MG: Guy Smith, president of the Alberta Union of Provincial Employees. He was in Edmonton. We did request comment from the Minister of Health, Tylor Shandro, and received a statement from his office, which reads, in part, "We've been clear that front-line workers like doctors and nurses will not be laid off as part of AHS modernization. The unions were notified of the full likely impact of this work in December of 2019. Almost all the changes in staffing will be through contracting, which was used very widely under the NDP and will not reduce services. Changes in staffing will be mainly change of employer, rather than overall net reductions in employment. Any reductions will be managed through attrition as much as possible. We are not contracting out more services in the pandemic. The first new contracts will take effect in 2022, others in 2023 and 2024. That from the Office of the Minister of Health. Trevor Tombe is an associate professor of economics at the University of Calgary. Lorian Hardcastle is an associate professor researching health care policy and law, also at the University of Calgary. They have been listening. They both join us now. Good morning to you both.

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: Good morning.

TREVOR TOMBE: Good morning.

MG: Trevor, I'll start with you. You looked at the numbers, you know, as an economist, where does Alberta's health care system stand right now?

TREVOR TOMBE: Well, it stands in a very similar position to health-care systems we see across the country in terms of accounting for a very large share of overall provincial spending. So here, a little over 40 percent of total government expenditures and that's kind of the same share that you see across the country. Where Alberta is different though and this came up in your conversation just a moment ago, is in the per patient or per person level of spending here is quite a bit higher than what we see elsewhere, despite the fact that Alberta's population is also quite a bit younger. So the share over the age of 65 in Alberta is less than what we see anywhere else.

MG: I was going to say, Lorian, what's your understanding of that? I mean, why is it that per capita Alberta spends more on health care than other provinces?

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: Well, I think part of it is Alberta's sort of boom and bust economy. And when it's booming, I think the government tends to to ramp up spending accordingly. And then when the economy is doing less well, it can be difficult to to respond to that. And so I think part of it is due to that for sure.

MG: Is that about wages then? So when you know, times are good, people are paid more?

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: It can be and it can be and not just, you know, what wages like per our wages for those employees, but also the salaries paid to the executive and those sorts of things.

MG: We've heard from doctors. We spoke with one on this program. You see their comments on Twitter. They say that they're going to close their practices. They're going to move to a different province. And the phrase that gets used is that the provincial government policies are death by a thousand cuts. What are those cuts to the health care system that doctors are talking about in particular, Lorian?

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: LWell, yeah. So the issue with doctors really stems from legislation that was passed about a year ago allowing the government to unilaterally terminate their financial agreements with the Alberta Medical Association and going into negotiations, knowing that the government could get rid of the agreements that you negotiated any time was was quite demoralizing. A number of changes to doctors billing codes were implemented in the midst of the pandemic. And certainly doctors thought that the Alberta Medical Association was coming to the table with a proposal to save the government money. But the government didn't seem as as interested in negotiations. And so I think there's really a toxic relationship at this point between the medical profession and the government, which is which has led to some doctors leaving and others to announce that they plan to leave.

MG: Trevor, there are 11,000 jobs that, up to 11000 jobs that could be moved to private companies. Again, laboratory work, cleaning, food services, laundry as well. Economically, what do you make of the health minister's plan? Does it address those shortfalls in the system that we've been talking about?

TREVOR TOMBE: Well, for some perspective, this Alberta spent at a level adjusted for demographic difference equal to B.C., Ontario and Quebec. Overall health spending would fall by about six billion dollars per year. So there's a very large gap in expenditures here versus elsewhere. So this outsourcing of the 11,000 position, the government claims savings of six hundred, a bit skeptical on that is just a small component of the overall gap in spending that we see here. So this is not going to be the end of what the government has in mind for health care, because as population, beach spending is just going to be increasing with greater and greater speed.

MG: We heard from the head of the union who represents those workers disputing the $600 million annually. Do you think it could save anywhere near that?

TREVOR TOMBE: So I think it would be wise to be skeptical of claims like this from government absent analysis, but the savings would come from either lower employment or lower wages. And outsourcing is one way to do that in that it take some of the individuals out of the public sector bargaining unit. So that would be the source of savings if there are any to be had.

MG: Lorian, from a policy perspective. What do you make of Tylor Shandro's plan?

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: LYeah, I'm quite skeptical of the of the savings. I mean, we know that the private sector will negotiate some amount of profit that will have to be that will have to be incorporated into whatever contract say they negotiate. I am concerned that, you know, many of these workers are making only a few dollars more than minimum wage to do work that involves biohazards, can involve repetitive stress injuries, these are mainly women doing these jobs, many racialized populations. And there have been some studies out of the UK showing that when laundry is contracted out, infection rates go up.

MG: The head of the union said that this was the thin edge of the wedge, that it's privatization of these services now and that that opens the door to a private option, perhaps in health-care generally. Do you think that that is a leap in logic, Lorian?

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: Well, I think that what we're seeing is not just not just the discussion of a private option and this. I think there's there's a number of things going on that we're seeing that add credibility to that. We've seen the government plans to double the number of surgeries delivered in private facilities and the government has adopted virtual care platform owned by Telus. The government also plans to allow corporations to contract with the government to bill for health services and then for them to hire health care professionals. And so I do think there is a move that privatisation of lab services. So I do think there is a move to corporate ties and privatise the healthcare system in Alberta in general. And I think that that, of course, those along with the ideology that we tend to see from Conservative politicians.

MG: Well, at the annual general meeting of the UCP earlier this month, there was a vote to pursue that potential private option. Is, I mean to a lot of people that, you know, just because of the place of public health care in the national identity, that sets off alarm bells, but if you're looking at addressing a financial gap, is that something that should be considered to try to close that gap, Lorian?

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: Yes, there's evidence, obviously, from many other countries who have a parallel private system for hospital and physician services and that evidence does not tend to show that that that option is cheaper. When you're involving multiple payers, administrative costs go up. And many of the countries that people point to as being successful models of parallel private healthcare systems actually spends more per capita than we do in Canada.

MG: Countries like what?

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: People often point to countries like Germany who spend quite a bit more or they'll point to countries like France or the Netherlands who spend less, but often on par with or slightly more than Canada does.

MG: Trevor, what is, as an economist, what do you make of this? Can you explain why a private option might be the answer to some of these problems?

TREVOR TOMBE: Well, we should, I think, distinguish between two types of private involvement in health. There's privately financed and privately delivered health services. Think about a lot of vision care, dental massage therapy, things like that, and then publicly funded and privately delivered type of services where it's a private company or individual providing a service, but billing the government. So doctors themselves are a private corporation, providing the family physicians and GP services, and they bill the government at negotiated rates. And about 30 percent of overall health expenditures in Canada is private. So I think the conversation needs to be about the appropriate mix and design and financing. And too often in Canada, the discussion is short circuited by an instinctual aversion to that word "private" when it comes to health care.

MG: But to Lorian's point, is there any proof that this is actually going to save the money that's needed?

TREVOR TOMBE: Oh, I think this will vary in incredibly widely, depending on the service that we refer to specifically. I mean the actual building of the hospital itself. We tender that we put out to competitive bidding process in order to construct it. So maybe there are savings there because of the competition. But if we're negotiating prices like we do with doctors, then you're not necessarily going to see savings because there isn't that competitive pressure in setting the fees for services. So the devil's in the details whether it would actually receive savings, but it should be a part of the conversation.

MG: Lorian, do we need to move beyond kind of the knee-jerk response to the word privatization?

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: Well, I don't tend to see that same knee-jerk response, particularly among people who work in this area who who do tend to have a distinction between when we're talking about hospital and physician services, which are right now publicly funded. And that tends to be a quite a separate discussion in health policy circles. From Trevor's question, which would be, well, what about the things currently left out like dental and pharma? Should those be is as privately funded as they are, should we bring them within the umbrella of the public system? And I tend to see those two questions being asked quite distinctly.

MG: What's the solution then, Lorian? If you're trying to preserve this system as it is, but the money may or may not be there, what do you do?

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: Yeah, so I think we, Canada tends to be a bit of a land of pilot projects, and so we'll see successful health policy initiatives that do show prospects for saving money. But there often isn't that isn't that doesn't seem to be the political will to scale those products projects up or to maintain them over time. But I do think that significant improvements can be made within the public system. There's capacity in the public system, too, to address some of the waitlists. And I think particularly during COVID, when the health-care system needs stability and not chaos,we need to be looking at those public reform options.

MG: What about for you, Trevor, for people who want to preserve the current system, can it be maintained as it is right now?

TREVOR TOMBE: Yeah, I think there's a couple options to consider to to maintain what we have now as we age, too, in the coming year and health spending rises, especially for a province like Alberta. New taxes, sales taxes in particular, should also be a part of the conversation. If we want a certain level of public expenditures in different areas, we should be talking more here about how to finance it. So, I mean, relative to elsewhere in the country, Alberta's taxes are significantly below average and that's something that we'll need to grapple with here as well.

MG: You hinted that this Lorean and just in that, in the remaining minute or so that we have, this is happening, this conversation and the, you know, the wildcat strikes, but also just the heat of the conversations happening in the midst of a global pandemic. What does that tell you about the stakes that are at play here?

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: I think the stakes are, the stakes are high. I think though that, you know, there is a there is a fatigue at the aggressiveness of the changes being being proposed by governments and not just in health, but in other sectors. This government is aggressively legislating at a pace that we're not really seeing in other provinces who are focussed more on keeping systems stable and maintaining things during during the turmoil that exists in the health care system and the economy. And I just don't think it's wise to throw all of that into chaos right now.

MG: You said that it's a toxic environment. Is it possible to address these issues in the moment in a toxic environment?

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: Well, I think the government has made it extremely difficult. It's alienated doctors and nurses are concerned with forthcoming cuts. The workers, the UPE workers are affected by cuts and all of these collective agreements with the various health care entities are all at an end and that is when we can see strikes happen because you can't strike during the term of the agreement. But these agreements have all expired and they're all being have been extended, but ultimately, it is right for a strike.

MG: It's great to speak with you both about this. More on this to come certainly as the issue progresses. Thank you for this morning.

TREVOR TOMBE: Thank you.

LORIAN HARDCASTLE: Thank you for having me.

MG: Trevor Tombe is an associate professor of economics at the University of Calgary. Lorian Hardcastle is an associate professor researching health care policy and law, also at the University of Calgary. We'd love to hear from you on this. You can email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. Coming up after your regional update, we'll talk more about health care, particularly long-term care. Another perspective from inside those long-term care homes coming up. This is The Current. We're back in 90 seconds.

[Music]

Listeners write-in with their experiences in long-term care

Guests: Karin Marley, Breanne Klassen

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I mean just because we're old, doesn't mean to say we don't have needs and emotions and wants. A lot of people have the attitude that people are put into long-term care, they shove us in here and we just stay here till we die.

MG: That's Devora Greenspon on the program last week. She, along with Dianna Green and Carolynn Snow, told us about their lives in a long-term care home during this pandemic.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Up to that point, we were confined to our own rooms, had to have our meals in our rooms. We're unable to be in contact with any of the other residents and it was a rough time really.

VOICE 2: People need each other. They need contact with their families. They need contact with people who love them. They need to be touched.

MG: Their stories moved us and you, judging by the volume of mail that they generated. To take a look at some of your responses, I'm joined by The Current's senior producer, Karin Marley. Karin, hello.

KARIN MARLEY: Hi, Matt. Yeah, there was definitely a lot. There were a lot of listeners who could relate to what these women were talking about. Jennifer Mondoux from Ottawa said, "I think we tend to see our seniors and elderly in particular as people who can't voice their opinions so eloquently. They're people with feelings and emotional needs and wants. Who are we to overlook this? I'm ashamed by how we've treated our elders so badly for so many years in these facilities."

MG: Dagmar McKenzie in Vancouver writes, "I speak as a healthy person who stayed in a care centre for almost two years. It was a choice made so that my husband and I could share accommodation while he lived out the final phase of a degenerative disease. It was a good choice for us both. Still, he used to say that his life would be unbearable without me there to supplement his care and advocate for his needs. I could see that this was true, even though the staff were doing the best they could with the resources they had."

KARIN MARLEY: We did hear a lot about that, about staff doing the best they could. Darlene Mercer from Pitt Meadows, B.C., wrote, "I was my father's advocate and essential visitor. He passed away this month and I feel he was collateral damage, as are many. His second fatal case of pneumonia, which took him back to hospital, the lack of transparency regarding his health during the beginning months of covered and the ability to communicate with his family, which was irretrievably lost, leaving us a phantom of my father to say goodbye to in hospital. This level of suffering could have been made so much less."

MG: Sadly, some people haven't seen their families in months due to lock down. Thea Rogers in White Horse writes, "I have not seen my mom since March. Her health has suffered these past months. She has had numerous hospital stays. I'm considered to be high risk because I have to travel so far to see her. My only hope is that the rapid test kits currently being tried out in a few airports will become readily available to the general public sooner rather than later. An extra layer of testing may be the game changer that might make it possible for me to be able to hug my mom in the near future."

KARIN MARLEY: And then there's this message for some of the people in charge of these long term care homes. It's from Pat in Gatineau, Quebec. "We need to hear more from the older people who are living at the forefront of this crisis and how it is impacting their emotional and physical well-being. I am so sick of hearing politicians refer to these people as our frail elderly, as though they are not real living, breathing human beings."

MG: It is really powerful to hear from these real living, breathing human beings. Karin, thank you.

KARIN MARLEY: You're welcome.

MG: There was one more letter that we got that we wanted to follow up with and that is from Breanne Klassen. She's a recreational therapist at a long-term care home in the Niagara region in Ontario and she joins us now. Breanne, good morning.

BREANNE KLASSEN: Good morning.

MG: Thank you for writing. And thanks for taking our call to talk further about what you articulated in your letter. Can you just very briefly describe what you do? What does a recreational therapist do?

BREANNE KLASSEN: So we are the people that engage the resident in cognitive, emotional, spiritual, social programs. We also provide one to one visits. We organize large group gatherings. We put on outings, special events. We do things as volunteers. We're pretty involved with all the social aspects of the whole home and kind of know all the residents and know most of the staff all over the floors and we're kind of everywhere.

MG: And so when you heard our conversation with those three long-term care residents last week, how did what they described mirror what you see at the home that you work?

BREANNE KLASSEN: Oh, I just wish more of them were able to speak up because the things that they said were just right on. Like they can't see their family members. Social engagement is so important. It was hurting my heart a little bit to hear how lonely and depressed some of them are because it just happens every day. I mean, especially the residents that are very cognitive. They know what's going on and they miss their families and they miss seeing their friends and they can't do that. And it's so hard.

MG: How has the pandemic changed your job?

BREANNE KLASSEN: So back in March and April, before all this went down, our job would be come in the morning, we go and exercise. We'd help in the dining room. We do a bunch of programs for all of our residents. We might have three or four programs a day. That all stopped in March and April and we had to focus on just trying to connect loved ones with their family members. Our days turned into doing FaceTime visits and Skype visits and just trying to connect them. And some residents might have three, four children that they talk to all the time. They're trying to do that. We couldn't run large programs anymore. We were trying and when we can't run large programs, you're missing some of the people that wouldn't otherwise engage. You can't go have church anymore. We can't have large music programs and especially going to the winter, that's going to be very difficult.

MG: So you've hinted at this and you talked about that in your letter as well. Something like church, for example, what does that mean for those residents in you know, as we said, the before times? In normal times, what would it mean for them?

BREANNE KLASSEN: Oh, some of these people have been going to church every day, every Sunday for their entire lives. Some of these people, they're not someone that engages in programs and activities, and their spiritual connection and their church is what keeps them going. And you feel like now more than ever, these people would need it and they can't do that. Some people would leave the home and go to their church within their community and see all their friends and family that way. They can't do that either anymore. So it's really affecting them.

MG: In your letter, you wrote, "Do you know how hard it is to tell a family member they can't hug their loved one when you're sitting beside their loved one, holding their loved one's hand?".

BREANNE KLASSEN: Yeah.

MG: Tell me a little bit about those interactions. That's really, that's a really powerful image.

BREANNE KLASSEN: Yeah. Well, sometimes, especially with the outdoor visits when they couldn't go near each other and they couldn't, so you're trying to sit with this loved one, trying to communicate to them what's happening, because sometimes they don't know what's happening because their memory is not there anymore and they might not know their family member anymore. And you're just trying to get them through this and the family on the other side is trying to talk to their loved one and they just want to hug them and kiss them and they can't do that. And all you want for them is to do that too and they can't do that and it breaks your heart.

MG: What could be done differently? What we heard from the residents that we spoke with was, again, they're really fearful of the fact that they could be locked down again. And that they in some ways, you know, would rather risk becoming ill than not seeing their family members, not being able to give somebody a hug. What could be done differently, do you think?

BREANNE KLASSEN: I don't know. I know the answer is not cutting them off from their families and loved ones. As our recreation team, we really rely on the family members and the volunteers. They're a very important part of the home. They're just involved in everyday life and the social connexions are so important. I don't know what the right answer is. I know, I definitely know it's not having, I definitely know it's keeping the loved ones in touch with their families.

MG: What are they going to need? Aside from keeping and you're trying to do that through the work that you're doing, what are they going to need as winter gets closer? We've had, you know, in Ontario some snow this morning. There's been snow elsewhere in the country and that's a sign that winter is coming and we keep hearing it's going to be a difficult winter. So what is it that those residents need, do you think?

BREANNE KLASSEN: They need stimulation and they need love from more than just the staff. We can't, a lot of times, we have these large music programs and pet therapies and those things are programs that reach people that might not otherwise be reached any other way. Music is something that stays with people for a long time, and not being able to bring people to those kind of things is heartbreaking. They need support. I don't know what the right answer is, but I know what's going on right now is not the right answer.

MG: Do you feel that your work is valued? We've learned a lot. We're just talking about what's happening in Alberta when it comes to health care. We've learned a lot over the course of this pandemic about the work of personal support workers and other workers within those long-term care facilities. Do you think that we value your work enough? We as a society.

BREANNE KLASSEN: Sometimes. I think if you've had an experience in long-term care, if you have a loved one, if you've worked or you volunteer, I think it can really change your perspective on how valuable our jobs are. If you haven't really been in that world, you really don't truly understand what it's like to be in a home like that and work in a home like that. Yeah.

MG: It's hard work.

BREANNE KLASSEN: Yeah. It can be. It's very rewarding work if you have the heart for it. It's very rewarding. As a recreationist, we get to hear stories of people and when they come into the home, we do a social history of them and talk to them and you learn the most incredible things from these wonderful people that have been through so much, through wars. Some of them have travelled through the, travelled across the ocean by themselves just to escape things. So it's incredible the stories that we have and to think that they're not being taken care of as best as they should be due to just circumstances beyond the staff's control is heartbreaking.

MG: Thanks for the work that you're doing, but also thanks for writing us and allowing us to explore this further. I appreciate you joining us this morning.

BREANNE KLASSEN: Thank you so much.

MG: Take care of yourself.

BREANNE KLASSEN: Bye bye.

MG: Breanne Klassen is a therapeutic recreationist at a long-term care home in Ontario. She wrote us after hearing our conversation last week. We love to hear your thoughts on anything we talk about on the program. Get in touch. Email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. You can find us on Twitter @TheCurrentCBC or on Facebook. Just look for The Current CBC.

France still reeling from terror attacks

Guests: Alexis Gilli, Rim-Sarah Alouane

SOUNDCLIP

[French sermon from Basilica of Notre Dame in Nice]

MG: Sounds from the Basilica of Notre Dame in France's Souterhn city of Nice. It was the first time that the church opened its doors since last Thursday's terror attack, the church was holding a special mass only for the victims and the families of the victims of that attack. Three people were killed. One of the dead was beheaded. The man accused in the killings is a 21-year-old originally from Tunisia, who'd recently arrived in France. French freelance journalist Alexis Gilli was outside the church during the mass yesterday. He was also the first journalist on scene when the terror attack happened. And we reached him in Nice. Alexis, good morning.

ALEXIS GILLI: Good morning.

MG: We heard there a little bit of sound from inside Notre Dame. What was happening outside the Basilica?

ALEXIS GILLI: Yesterday was a very emotional moment. It was the first day since the terror attack, but the people were there together in the church. There were people from all backgrounds. There were Muslim people, Catholics, and a lot of people that came to celebrate the secularization of Notre Dame. It was very powerful moment because, as you know, France is under a lockdown since Tuesday. And this was kind of an out of time moment where people kind of forget about all of this and were allowed to gather in the church.

MG: What's the mood like? It's been four days since the attack inside the church and as you mentioned, France is also under a lockdown because of this pandemic. What's the mood like in the city?

ALEXIS GILLI: I have had a lot of discussions with people in the city of Nice, and people were kind of scared, I guess, because there is this terrorist threat that's above our heads every day and there is this coronavirus lockdown that's happening.

MG: Is there a visible security presence? I mean, does it seem as though the city is on edge?

ALEXIS GILLI: Oh, yes, there is. Since Tuesday, there is a lot more military forces that are in the city. There is a lot of military officials pretty much near every church, schools, etc. And yesterday was a great example, we would see thousands of soldiers of policemen. You would feel this military presence, which is not something we're used to in France, and especially in Nice.

MG: The person accused of this attack is a 21-year-old Tunisian national. What else do we know about him?

ALEXIS GILLI: He arrived in Europe on the 25th of September through through Italy, which is, you know, a very common place where people from Tunisia come by boat. And according to his family, the family doesn't really know why he did that, because according to them, he didn't really have this kind of extremist mentality. He didn't know much about what happened with Charlie Hebdo in 2014 in Paris, in the attack of Nice into 2016. According to his family, he was just a bored man that didn't have much to do and he actually fell into this kind of Islamic propaganda kind of found a sense of belonging, I guess, to his mentality.

MG: Police have arrested other suspects, six other suspects, apparently. Do we have any sense as to why they were picked up.

ALEXIS GILLI: The police is not communicating at all about this, but as I'm talking to you, like literally 30 seconds ago, they were conducting a mission in the streets of Nice. Three of the people that have been arrested by the police now have been relaxed. We don't really know much of his point about it. What we do know, though, is that one of the man who has been arrested was also in the same boat that brung the assailant in France.

MG: Inside Notre Dame Basilica yesterday, paying their respects were also leaders of the Muslim community. What are you hearing from that community in your city?

ALEXIS GILLI: It's once again, very emotional because on the day of the attack on Thursday, we saw some microliters, as I like to call them, just people from the crowd that stood up and walked to the tramways and cars and started yelling at everybody around them. But this was not what Islam was about. This was not what their religion was about. And there religion was a religion of peace. I interviewed one of the Islamic leaders here in Nice yesterday evening at the church, and he told me that tonight he was a Christian. And I think that this is a very important sentence to remember, you know, I am a Christian because we saw yesterday evening some Muslim people, but had some Catholic crosses around their necks and were holding the Holy Bible in their hands.

MG: Just finally, back to the tension that's there between various communities, what are you most concerned about? You have a city that's in mourning. You have a Muslim community that, you know, in response feels as though it's under pressure. And as you said, people in the community are now saying that you know they're Christian, that they're Catholic, that they're trying to show sympathy with the victims of this attack. What are you most concerned about in the days ahead?

ALEXIS GILLI: What we need to realize in Nice especially is that there is this kind of very weird dichotomy between the Muslim community and the Christian community. And as you might know, Nice is a very left right wing city in terms of politics. And so the Muslim community here doesn't really have a sense of belonging. They don't feel like they belong to France, neither do they feel that they belong to, you know, Nice's mindset. So the less they have this sense of belonging the more they tend to set apart and to create this kind of community terrorism lifestyle and the more they step aside from our culture and lifestyle, the more they tend to leap towards the Islamic extremist propaganda that we see in Syria and this is how they leave. What my concerns are, I think we might see in the upcoming weeks or months is an even bigger gap that they can place between the Muslim and Christian community in Nice and that is a great threat.

MG: Alexis, I appreciate speaking with you this morning. Thank you.

ALEXIS GILLI: My pleasure. Thank you.

MG: Alexis Gilli is a freelance journalist based in France. We reached him this morning in this Nice. Rim-Sarah Alouane is a legal scholar at the University of Toulouse-Capitole. She is in Toulouse. Good morning to you.

RIM-SARAH ALOUANE: Hello.

MG: When you heard of the attack in Nice, what went through your mind initially?

RIM-SARAH ALOUANE: Of course I was. I couldn't believe it. I was shocked. I mean, I couldn't even put words. What happened? I don't understand how a human can commit such a horrific act and I was extremely scared of yeah, the situation, how we're not safe and also the consequences in the aftermath on a political level, but also on civil liberties. So our fear, definitely fear and I just didn't get it, really.

MG: Tell me more about those consequences. And and what do you make of the French government's response thus far to the attacks?

RIM-SARAH ALOUANE: Well it seems that we do not learn lessons. Unfortunately, as expected, you know by anyone who really keep up with French politics, reaction from, you know, the French political elite, intellectuals, pundits, media turned quickly to be very reactionary and a whole rhetoric about war, revenge, you know, started to spread. And this has diverted our attention, you know, from the complexity of the situation and prevent us from reflecting on, you know, our points of failure. What did go wrong despite our very strong legal apparatus to tackle terrorism? And of course, unfortunately, all the political and media reactions have unfortunately placed responsibility on the usual scapegoats, Muslim communities and this is extremely, extremely worrying.

MG: The president, Emmanuel Macron has talked about fighting Islamic separatism. Where's your understanding as to where that's coming from?

RIM-SARAH ALOUANE: Well, you know, the problem as someone who studies the law, the problem with the term separatism is that it doesn't really make much sense on the legal level since there is no legal definition of what separatism is. And the vagueness of these terms opens door to potential abuses. So, for example, some politicians, some, you know, pundits would consider that the wearing a hijab or a headscarf is a sign of separatism. More recently, if you have followed the minister of interior declared that being bothered by the existence of Halal and culture aisles in supermarkets that's called separatism. So this leads to insane situations and however many amongst the political elite alludes the existence of racism, xenophobia and don't do much to tackle discrimination, which is in itself a form of separatism as well. So I'm afraid that this will open a Pandora's box and a way for the state to basically abuse of the situation to tackle civil liberties. And the recent declaration from our minister of education, our minister of interior, show that there is such a risk and we definitely need to be careful. You know, terrorists want to create chaos. And we should not give them this opportunity. We need civil liberties more than ever now in time of crisis.

MG: And yet there are people, because of the nature of these crimes, the people being beheaded that want the French government to take a stronger line. I mean, the mayor of Nice has called on the government to step up its actions. What would you say to those people who are calling for an even harsher response?

RIM-SARAH ALOUANE: Of course, I mean like I said, those attacks were horrific, but again, we do have a strong legal apparatus when it comes to tackling terrorism. Remember, after the Charlie Hebdo attacks in 2015, we were under a state of emergency for two years. And after that, A law or on to fighting terrorism was adopted and making basically a state of emergency permanent. And despite that, we still did not prevent this from happening. The terrorist was reported this summer to the police, to the authorities, and nothing has been done. And may I remind you that on the same day, we also had another attack against a policeman from the far right. And I think there is a difference of treatment and do we have to tackle terrorism? Absolutely. But it has to be done in a way that does not confuse Muslims who just want to be, you know, to live their life and stop confusing them with those people who basically are weaponizing religion to commit those crimes.

MG: You said initially that you were concerned about the consequences of these attacks. Tell me a bit more about what the rhetoric, as you understand it, what that sort of rhetoric would do to Muslim communities in France right now? Where are they left and what are they being told in some ways that they have to do in the wake of these attacks?

RIM-SARAH ALOUANE: That's actually a very interesting question, because every time there is a terrorist attack, immediately we switch the conversation to, I call it, the problem of Islam in France, again, instead of trying to understand and address the causes of radicalization, which speaks volumes. We often refer to ordinary Muslims as opposed to extremists. But like I said, when a white supremacist commits a similar crime, we don't attribute it to white people or ordinary Christians. And Muslims are concerned that they would pay the price for crimes they did not commit. And, you know, there is a common agreement that extremism has to be fought, but what is concerning is the lack of nuances from the government and how Muslims are usually seen as usual suspects. There were two horrific attacks this week, I mean, this past week. The one in Nice was considered an Islamist terrorist attack so far and as far as I know, the other one in Avignon was not considered a terrorist attack, even though the alleged assailant was connected too far generation identity. Like I mentioned, two similar crimes two different treatments.

MG: Just before I let you go, these are tense times. You have a pandemic. You have these attacks. What are you most concerned about in the days ahead?

RIM-SARAH ALOUANE: That we forget what we stand for as a democracy. We live in tumultuous times and I understand that emotions can be very strong and you know, we attempt to basically forget about being rational. But like I said and I will never stop to repeat it, it is in time of crisis that more than ever, the rule of law, due process, civil liberties must be protected. And if we fall into the trap of playing by the far right playbook, by playing with the fear card, we are going to lose it and as a nation, we cannot afford that.

MG: Rim-Sarah Alouane, thank you for your time this morning. I appreciate it.

RIM-SARAH ALOUANE: Thank you for having me.

MG: Rim-Sarah Alouane is a legal scholar at the University of Toulouse-Capitole. She was in Toulouse. That's The Current for today. Stay tuned to CBC Radio One for Q. Before we go, we wanted to mark the death of award winning Middle East correspondent Robert Fisk. He died this weekend of a stroke, was 74-years-old, had an extraordinary career that spanned more than 40 years covering the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, along with wars and invasions in Syria, Algeria, Lebanon, Kuwait and Iraq, to name a few. He lived in Lebanon for the last few decades and spoke with The Current in November of last year, just as Lebanese protesters had shut down parliament in Beirut. Here's a bit of that conversation with then host, Laura Lynch. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Oh, poor old Lebanese. They're always going through the greatest crisis since the last greatest crisis. They are brave. They are talented in the most literal sense of the word. They're highly educated. I know many Lebanese who speak five languages. And they deserve a better country than they've got. But the French colonial power instituted a sectarian state in which the president has always got to be a Christian. The prime minister has always got to be a Sunni Muslim and the speaker of parliament has always got to be a Shia Muslim. And once you create a sectarian state, you can't take it to bits because it lives in this constant feeling of deep suspicion, fear, and extraordinary love for the other sect, because you don't want to get invaded by them and you don't want them to think you're going to invade their village. But I don't see at the moment how they're going to deal with this huge problem because Lebanon is like a Rolls Royce with you know green leather seats or cocktail in the back, but it's got square wheels. It doesn't move. Look, it all comes down to this. Is the West able to cooperate in setting up a system of billions of dollars worth of educational institutions, universities across the region, and encourage people of every faith to go there if they want to have a fine job helping their people? Doctors, health services, agriculture, food production, whatever you like. Then pour those millions into these new institutions rather than drones, M1-A1 Abrams tanks and what is it, 35million a year to the Egyptian army? Who run shopping malls and banks. I mean, the system is so corrupted. It needs us in the West to try and help them out of it. But then again, the Trump administration is so corrupted and we won't go into that now that in a sense it merely supports all these people. That is not the way for an optimistic, happy future for the Middle East.

[Music: theme]

Nov. 2, 2020 episode transcript

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