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The Current Transcript for May 25, 2020

Host: Rosemary Barton

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I can't face the fact that I might spend a good chunk of my teenage years cooped up inside. This sucks big time.

ROSEMARY BARTON: 12-year-old Meika is probably speaking for a lot of Canadian kids who thinks this whole thing kind of sucks. A new website gives young people a chance to express that angst. They're writing about the challenges, even the joys of being stuck at home. I'll give you a hint. Puppies bring joy. Also, on the show today.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: We are enter the Phase 2 with cautious optimism and a sense of responsibility. We know that our struggle is far from be over.

RB: The Italian prime minister is warning the struggle is far from over, but for now, life is returning, not to normal exactly, but Italians are getting used to a new normal. We'll find out what that means when I talk to journalist Megan Williams in Rome. And we'll check in with a doctor who is on the frontlines of the fight against COVID and then caught the disease himself. But we start today with an organization that's taken a lot of heat for its handling of the coronavirus outbreak. I'm Rosemary Barton, sitting in for Matt Galloway, and this is The Current.

[Music: theme]

As 'the worst may be yet to come,' WHO assistant chief stresses global unity with vow to review

Guests: Peter Singer

RB: On January 4th, 2020, the World Health organisation sent out its first alert about a mysterious health crisis. A cluster of cases of pneumonia in Wuhan, no deaths and the cause unknown. But as we know all too well now, COVID-19, exploded into the biggest pandemic since the W.H.O. was formed. And as the disease has spread, so too have questions about the whether the W.H.O. could have done more to contain it. Joining me now is Dr. Peter Singer. He is special advisor to the Director General of the World Health Organization and Assistant Director General. Dr. Singer, good morning.

PETER SINGER: Good morning and thank you for having me.

RB: Thanks for being here. It's been incredibly five months now since that first report from China about cases of something similar to pneumonia. Now we're at more than 5 million confirmed cases. More than 300,000 people have died. Tell us what you're most worried about going forward.

PETER SINGER: I'm most worried going forward about the fact that even though there's been a tremendous amount of suffering and and cases and sadly deaths, actually the worst may be yet to come. This is the worst global public health crisis that the world is faced in a century and we all really need to work together. It's a global challenge that requires global solutions.

RB: And yet, in spite of that, this appeal for all of us to work together, the Secretary General of the U.N. said just recently on May 18th that many countries ignored the advice of your organization, the W.H.O. why do you think that cooperation is not happening even now?

PETER SINGER: I think actually we're seeing a lot of global cooperation. Last week we had our World Health Assembly virtually with 194 health ministers of the world. They came together in a resolution which is essentially a roadmap of 34, 35 things that that should be done. I think overall we're seeing a lot of cooperation. And in terms of the advice. The core of our advice has always been the shoe leather epidemiology, if you will, of testing, tracking, isolating and caring for cases and tracing and quarantine contacts. And I think that's advice that countries around the world have followed, because that's the way to find out where the virus is, to isolate the virus and to defeat it.

RB: As you know, there has been though, a lot of criticism of the organisation and even the advice it's given, for instance, the reluctance to or the suggestion that the organization was too slow in declaring a global health emergency, that the person who has been perhaps the harshest and certainly the most vocal in the criticism is the president of the United States. Let me play this clip of Donald Trump from May 18th.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: We help fund the World Health Organization. We use it like everyone else does. They gave us a lot of very bad advice. Terrible advice. They were wrong so much. Always on the side of China. China paid 40 million dollars last year. And we've been paying 450 million dollars a year for many years. Somehow that doesn't work out too well. So I was thinking about bringing our 450 down to 40 and some people thought that was too much.

RB: How big a problem is it for the W.H.O. to have Donald Trump as seemingly an adversary right now?

PETER SINGER: Well, let me just say in particular about the letter that President Trump sent to the Director General of the World Health Organization, last week during the assembly that we've received the letter and that we're reviewing it. But to your broader point, you know, tough questions are OK. They are to be expected in any crisis, in any pandemic. In a sense, they go with the territory. I mentioned that the effectively the the 194 members, health ministers of the world got together last week. One of the things they agreed upon and this is something that direct the director general proposed was to initiate a an evaluation which is impartial, independent, comprehensive of the international response, including W.H.O's performance. That's the kind of ongoing accountability that W.H.O. welcomes. And in fact, the initial review of the response by our own Independent Oversight Advisory Committee, the emergency program was published last week. So, you know, in summary, the kind of questions that are being asked, the tough questions are to be expected. We welcome them. W.H.O. responded, warned early and often from the first moment we received notification, cluster of cases of pneumonia on December 31st.

RB: Yeah, that is true, but I think the criticism now is is not when that warning went out. It's much around some of the statements made by your boss. Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, who's the Director General, in January and February, repeatedly praising China for its transparency and openness when we know at the time China was silencing whistleblowers, was playing down the severity of the virus. Is there a thought process here behind what the director general said? Why would he have praised China at a time when it's clear that that praise wasn't warranted?

PETER SINGER: So, Rosemary, I've worked with a lot of leaders over the years, and I can tell you that the calm, principled leadership of Dr. Tedros has really made a positive difference in this outbreak. But to your point, from the moment that we learned of this cluster of cases on December 31st, swung into action, incident management team activated the next day. By five days later, we'd warned every country in the world, technical networks issued guidance. And on January 30th of this year, we, the Director General issued a public health emergency of international concern, the highest level of global alert and that was at a time when there were fewer than 100 cases outside China and no deaths. So W.H.O. warned early and often and it had red sirens and alarm bells raging almost from the first minute we heard about the outbreak.

RB: There was, though, for several weeks in China, that China was actually saying there was no clear evidence of human to human transmission and the W.H.O. seemed to accept those claims. And it seems curious, I think, for many people to understand why the W.H.O. would be so willing to accept the claims of China, knowing some of the other problems you've had in the past, particularly when it came to SARS.

PETER SINGER: I think what you're referring to is a January 14th tweet on human to human transmission. But what I can say about human to human transmission is that same day, January 14th, Dr. Maria Van Kerkhove, who's our technical lead of the response, said in a news conference that human to human transmission is is potentially expected in this outbreak. And in fact, she said from the very first moment she heard about this on December 31st, they factored in the possibility of human to human transmission. That's why, for example, the guidance note on January 20, on January 27th, is based on droplet crop precautions in health facilities for infection prevention and control. And that is based on the premise that there could be human to human transmission. So you're talking about one tweet, but the working assumption through January is that this was a possibility and ultimately it was confirmed and we had alarm bells raging through January.

RB: But the tweet is a public facing expression of the W.H.O.'s opinion. And you can understand why, given that China had not been forthcoming previously, that that would be alarming to people, that the W.H.O. would not be publicly saying what it knew to be a risk.

PETER SINGER: I think it was publicly saying what it knew to be a risk. As I mentioned on the very same day that that tweet was issued. Dr. Marie Van Kerkhove said that there was definitely possibility of human to human transmission and all our guidance was premised on it. So I think it's really important to look at the overall picture of the warning. And the overall picture of the warning is that W.H.O. warned early and often with red blaring sirens. And you yourself pointed out that that was five months ago. And so the I think we have to look at the whole international response and what people did with that warning.

RB: Let me just ask then on on the issue of China. Should the W.H.O. have been more sceptical in the so-called transparency, the information you were receiving from China throughout this pandemic? I realize the W.H.O. is dependent on the information you get from member states, but because it's China, should the W.H.O. have been slightly more sceptical about the quality of that information?

PETER SINGER: I think the WTO triangulates any information it gets from member states with the experience of people. You know, Dr. Van Kerkhove reached some of the conclusions that she did based on her experience. She's the world expert on MERS and SARS. And we warned early and often. Also, as I mentioned, you know, the purpose of this review that was proposed by the director general, the independent, impartial, comprehensive review that includes looks at the international response includes but isn't limited to W.H.O.'s performance. The purpose of the review is to ask exactly questions like that. But what I can say is from the moment we had the first notification, we swung into action, worked around the world and around the clock. You know, just to take one other example, we've shipped tens of millions of diagnostic kits, personal protective equipment for health workers, medical oxygen to more than 100 countries around the world. This is, as I mentioned, you know, a terrible global crisis and we have to all focus on fighting the fire and that's what W.H.O. is doing. For example, through shipping that material, saving lives. It's an essential component of the global response that is saving lives.

RB: Last week, China pledged $2 billion over two years to address COVID-19. Do you worry that that will play into the perception that the president is certainly encouraging, that there is too much influence by China on the W.H.O.?

PETER SINGER: W.H.O.'s annual budget is just under 3 billion dollars a year, Rosemary. And that, by the way, is only a little bit larger than the budget of large teaching hospitals in Canada and its ambit is the whole world. And so I think it needs to be taken into that context. Every country in the world contributes to the bitterest budget to some degree and I think that the W.H.O. needs to be fully financed to do the job that the member states of the world wanted to do.

RB: You talked about this impartial, independent evaluation that about 100 nations, I believe, have said yet. This is what we need to do. We need to see this. What kind of level of cooperation will you give to that review? Will you share documents, e-mails? Will you be able to share documents or e-mails from member states? Because I imagine that would be a point of friction, too. How will it work?

PETER SINGER: I think it's important to note that that review was actually proposed by the director general in his opening speech. And even though more than 100 nations co-sponsored that resolution. Actually all of them agreed by consensus with it and so does the secretariat.

RB: Well, President Trump, to be fair, Dr. Singer was calling for a review, well, before you moved to that last Tuesday.

PETER SINGER: I think the issue, you know, Rosemary, we do a review after every major action. It is to be expected. It's part of our DNA. We embrace that accountability. We did it after Ebola in 2014. We did it every time. This isn't a new issue. We welcome that review. We want to learn how we can perform better. And it's also important to recognize that the entire international response is the performance of W.H.O, the performance of the whole multilateral system and the performance of countries themselves.

RB: Let's talk about the plan for controlling the pandemic. The strategy in April called, as you mentioned, off the top four countries and communities to find and to test all suspected cases so that people can trace where they are. Quarantine people as needed. It's not happening in many places, including here in Canada. We have, as you probably know, is a Canadian. Some hotspots in places where the testing and contact tracing is not where it should be. If a wealthy country with a good health care system like Canada can't seem to get there, what does that tell you about the struggle against this virus here and in other places around the world?

PETER SINGER: Well, look, I'm not sure that I fully buy into that premise. I think countries are all tackling this problem in different ways. I think the core of it is the testing and tracing. I think there's a lot to like about the Canadian domestic response. And what I would say is in terms of the international response, canada's really stepped up in multilateralism, you know, where its focus has been on the humanitarian crisis. And this was one of the things that really worries me. What really worries me is when we start to see the first cases in Cox Bazaar in Yemen, in these desperate settings, humanitarian settings, among migrants and refugees, it's very, very worrisome. And that's actually where Canada's put a lot of its focus, which I think is really very, very strong. It's also put a focus on supporting GAVI and immunization. And by the way, 8 million children will have their basic immunization disrupted because this virus kills not only directly, it also kills by disrupting health services, essential health services. And many more people may die as as we saw with SARS on the collateral damage and I lived through that in the in Canada. And in addition to the humanitarian focus, the focus on immunization, the prime minister also participated in a very important launch event of the access to COVID Tools Accelerator on May 4th, along with other heads of state. And that's coordinated by W.H.O. and that's aiming to accelerate and very importantly, ensure equitable access to a vaccine, to therapeutics and to diagnostics. Because while the shoe leather epidemiology is, if you will, the centrepiece of the response at the moment, the exit strategy potentially as science and a vaccine.

RB: Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the vaccine because obviously there's this worldwide race and a very impressive collaboration happening around the world as well. But it's also going to be a competition for access and for instance, the United States has already tried to negotiate exclusive rights. How do you, how is that managed? Who should get the vaccine first? How do we control that part of it?

PETER SINGER: Well, that's actually an extraordinarily important question and it is part of the resolution I mentioned. So all the countries in the world there by consensus have agreed, at least in terms of a resolution to equitable access. There is now this mechanism called the ACT Accelerator, coordinated by W.H.O. and with other very, very important partners that is fully committed to this, to both acceleration and equitable access. And working out the tactical details of the answer to your question of how to ensure that everybody in the world gets the vaccine when a safe and effective vaccine is available and hopefully there will be more than one is at the heart of the type of thing W.H.O. does. It just shows how essential an organization this is in the global response to a global challenge, because that's a problem, as you implied in your question, that cannot be solved by any one country alone. And we've got some great examples in history of where countries working together could solve incredible problems. And probably the best example of that is smallpox, which required eradicated 40 years ago, required cooperation with the United States and with many other countries, a strong leadership role by W.H.O.. Do you know, Rosemary, I was shocked when I learned that there were more deaths from smallpox in the last century than all the wars in that century combined. 300 million and now zero. Why? Because of global cooperation.

RB: I understand the need for global cooperation, certainly, but when you have a U.S. administration that is really questioning the value of the W.H.O., surely that must be damaging to the efforts to make this a global endeavour. Surely you would concede that, that it becomes problematic.

PETER SINGER: What I would concede is that the United States has actually played an important role in W.H.O. gor the last 70 years. You know, the response, the emergency response has many imbedded Americans. The technical expertise of the United States is amazing with the National Institutes of Health, with the CDC. There always has been a cooperative relationship. And we certainly hope that that will continue, because this is an issue not just for the humanitarian crises that are unfolding and those most vulnerable people in the world that we talked about before. But for the national security of the United States of Canada and every country in the world, the best way to protect the national security of the United States is actually to ensure tha COVID is put in a box in every country in the world because we're not, none of us are safe until all of us are safe. And if there's COVID left anywhere, it can travel to any country. So the only way to ensure the national security of any country is actually for us to ensure that COVID is controlled in every country.

RB: I only have about 30 seconds, Dr. Singer, but it does seem as though trust in the W.H.O. has been a bit shaken. How does the organization re-establish itself in light of this, in about 30 seconds?

PETER SINGER: I've never met a group of people who are so dedicated to saving lives, a leader who only thinks about saving lives, public health and protecting the most vulnerable people. I think that that dedication will help the organization to come through this terrible challenge of this incredible public health crisis. And I am absolutely confident that we will get the global solidarity we seek and we will ultimately, if we work together, prevail and be able to defeat this terrible menace. Something Dr. Tedros called public enemy number one, which is the coronavirus.

RB: Dr. Peter Singer, thank you so much for making the time today, sir. I appreciate it very much.

PETER SINGER: Thank you. Thank you very much, Rosemary.

RB: That's Dr. Peter Singer. He's Special Adviser to the Director General of the World Health Organization and Assistant Director General as well. All right, the CBC News is next and then, Italy is known for its culture and, of course, its cuisine. So how do normally crowded museums, piazzas and restaurants adapt to new rules under COVID-19? With a lot more space for one. Megan Williams will bring us that story from Rome and Milan after the break. I'm Rosemary Barton, sitting in for Matt Galloway, and you are listening to The Current.

[Music]

Head of ICU in Italy says too early to tell how reopening is going

Guests: Megan Williams, Paolo Navalesi

RB: Hello, I'm Rosemary Barton, sitting in for Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: theme]

RB: Still to come, there's no getting around it and it's not the most pleasant thing to think about even, but more and more Canadians are having tough conversations about how and when they want to die. We'll have the talk in just over 30 minutes. But first, opening up Italian style.

[Music: theme]

RB: This past week, Italy further loosened its two month lockdown, reopening everything from churches, museums and restaurants to cafes, but it's not a return to the way it was. Social distancing, mask wearing, temperature checks are all part of the Phase 2, as the country tries to get its deaths. Still about 100 a day and the infection rate down. The Current guest host and CBC contributor Megan Williams has experienced all the changes over the past months from her home in Rome. And she joins me now from the Eternal City to talk about her impressions of Italy as it heads into its post quarantine phase. Bonjourno, Megan, I love saying that.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Bonjourno Rosa Maria,.

RB: Oh, yours is much better. Megan, you've lived in Rome for so many years now and you've been there throughout, of course, this nationwide quarantine from those early days where everyone remembers people singing on their balconies to now almost a full reopening. As it gets back to whatever this new normal is, what are you noticing most there?

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Well, there's just so many things I noticed. I mean, throughout the whole city here in Rome, in different parts of the country that I've visited recently. But I think I'd like to start talking about the changes in my own neighbourhood. And in fact, on my own terrorists, where I spent more time than I have I had ever imagined I would be spending over the past few months.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sounds from the streets of Rome]

MEGAN WILLIAMS: So this is a bit of sound I recorded on Saturday night. It's not the best quality, but I you know, I was sitting out finishing dinner with my family and all around me I could hear clusters of people. There were teenagers on the stairs below four or five sitting at a distance, smoking and listening to music. And on the rooftop next door, there were a bunch of people in their 20s sitting in a circle, chatting and laughing. There was a family across from us who I never used to see who was having dinner on their terrace. And I mean, I lived in a typical Roman residential neighbourhood. It's not a touristy area. And what's really struck me since the lockdown began to lift a few weeks ago is that the quality of sound in my neighbourhood has changed. And I think it in a strange way, it's become richer and more varied. And of course, the lockdown has eased, but people can't travel yet. They can't even travel between regions. So everybody is staying closer to home almost every night. There's this really wonderful tapestry or tableau of sound that I don't remember hearing before.

RB: Yeah. I mean, you've painted a lovely picture there of what it sounds like. And I guess it's because, as you say, people limited in where they can go, but also emerging from their homes for maybe the first time in quite some time.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: That's right. And and, you know, I think what it has really done is change local neighbourhoods. And, you know, I recently over the weekend, I caught up with a longtime Rome tour guide, Agnes Crawford and we were standing outside a cafe just overlooking the Coliseum. The cafe is still closed. And she pointed out something interesting about what the loosening of the lockdown means for a city like Rome that attracts so many tourists who, of course, aren't here now.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Whereas in our neighbourhood, I mean, I'm about to go to lunch for the first time in a restaurant since, you know, outside a restaurant since the lockdown began. In the centre of the citym lots of places haven't even reopened because there aren't any tourists and there isn't a residential population, which is numerous enough to support the large numbers of cafes and bars and restaurants that there would otherwise be. So the centre of the city does have this certain melancholic aspect.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: It really does. And here's here's a little bit of the sound of the historic centre of Rome that I taped after speaking with Agnes as I walked her along one of Rome's main streets and is usually very noisy.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sounds from historic centre of Rome]

RB: Not tourists asking where things are, but birds.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Birds. Yeah. No cars and birds. I mean, there's this incredible bird song all throughout the city. It's just amazing. Now, you know, there are pockets of the historic centre where there is more sound and there's one particular sound that is back that Italians are very happy to hear again.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound of espresso machine]

RB: Yeah, I mean, I can recognize that particularly early in the morning.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Exactly. I mean, there've been thousands of social media posts here with people expressing great joy. Yet their first post lockdown espresso made by a barista.

RB: I mean, I will say I am getting jealous hearing all these delightful sounds. It doesn't help that it's Italy. What about the restaurants? Are there people back out eating on streets and at tables?

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Well, you know, as Agnes mentioned in the neighbourhoods and I've seen it in my own neighbourhood, the little restaurants are open the tables outside, but very few restaurants in the historic centre. I popped by a favourite Rome restaurant of The Current senior producer Lara O'Brien, Mondo el Pantheon, which is a fantastic restaurant. And it's, as you can tell by its name, it's close to the Pantheon. And I just popped in to see how they were faring.

SOUNDCLIP

[Italian dialogue]

MEGAN WILLIAMS: So that's the manager and cook Mario Renaldi. He told me they had just reopened this week, but only for takeout. And we sort of stood chatting on the cobblestones in front of the restaurant. And I peered behind him and I could see into the main room, which is quite small. And they just had a few tables that were really widely spaced apart. And normally they can fit about 35 clients, but he says now, max, 12, 14 and you know, restaurants now have to take people's temperatures when they come in. They have to get their clients phone numbers for possible infection tracing. They have to sanitize the washroom after each person uses it. And so, you know, with very few few tourists, really no tourists in Rome, many of them are just staying closed in the historic centre.

SOUNDCLIP

[Italian speech].

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Mario says it's tough and he's really not sure they're going to survive. You know, he said something that really struck me that when when he first smelled, you know, the bubbling tomato sauce in the kitchen, he said it was like coming back home after a long voyage.

RB: Oh, man, that makes me want to go. I've already written the name of the restaurant down for which I can actually come visit.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because the lockdown and post lockdown have definitely altered the sounds of Rome and, you know, of course, everywhere in the world. But also the smells. You know, the air here is absolutely sweet and it's springtime and always in springtime, Rome smells like Jasmine and wisteria. But but this year, you know, without without the exhaust from the cars, I mean, there's a little bit now, but it's just, it's intoxicating.

RB: So we've done the things you can hear, the things you can smell. What about how it looks? I would imagine it looks different given there's really no tourists.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: It really does. And, you know, this is something I've thought so much about throughout the whole lockdown, especially in the middle of the lockdown. You know, as a journalist, I was really lucky to be able to move throughout the city. I could do so on my own. You couldn't go with anyone else. And so I would go. Not a lot, but I'd go a couple of times a week for a long bicycle ride through through the deserted city. And a lot of people know Rome is just a spectacularly beautiful city and and dotted with with ruins, ancient columns, crumbling walls. So it's a city that has a dizzying array of reminders from the past that reach back thousands of years. And for me, as I as I cycled through the city, I found those ruins really comforting because they were a reminder of the continuity of life, even even in the face of catastrophe. But I also had another feeling, a kind of a contradictory feeling that tour guide Agnes Crawford shared as well. And I thought she expressed really well. Here's Agnes.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Somehow Rome feels a little a little lost without spectators because it's a sort of show off and people to watch it showing off. It's there's something of the faded matinee idol about the whole thing. And you mentioned the ruins of the sort of constellations of ruins. I mean, it's interesting you mention that because the talk I was just doing was one that was specially requested by a group of people about plagues and epidemics in Rome's history. This is an event that has happened more times than one can possibly can. The difference is that this time for the first time, we had the possibility of staying closed up in our apartments. So the Roman forum, which I looked over two days ago, has been entirely empty for nearly three months now, which I would hazard is the emptiest and longest it's been since the Forum was drained by the Tarquins 2600 years ago. I mean you know this, in previous epidemics, people didn't have the luxury of staying at home and getting bored.

RB: That's so interesting and on so many levels and just the idea that Rome is a show off and doesn't have anybody to do it for anymore.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Yeah. I mean with regards to history and time and awareness of both, there was something else that somebody said that really struck me and that was my Italian mother in law. She she said this to me a couple of weeks ago. It's really stayed with me. And so I called her yesterday and I asked her about it again.

SOUNDCLIP

[Italian dialogue]

RB: I could listen to that for a long time, but I won't. The only part I understood was the beginning.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: When I called her, she was cooking up a storm, getting ready for her neighbours across the street who were coming over for lunch. And just as a side bar, this was one of the unexpected gifts of quarantine they've had terraces across from each other for the past 30 years and they've been politely ignoring each other throughout those three decades. But when the quarantine started, they started waving and then chatting. And then when they didn't see her, they'd call her to make sure she was okay. And they've become friends. And these are the first people that she's having over reports post quarantine. Now she's 88 and loves to cook. So for her, it was very exciting to be able to have other people over to cook.

RB: You mentioned there is something that she said about the lockdown, though, that stayed with you.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Yeah. And it was something that, you know, when I would we would phone her regularly, of course, to see how she was doing. And, you know, each time we talked about the situation, she kept repeating, astonished that she thought the Second World War, which she lived through when she was a girl, would be the defining cataclysmic event of her life. She kept saying, I never expected to live through a second. And the other thing that she said is that both for her were marked by overwhelming sensorial impressions sensorial impressions.

SOUNDCLIP

[Italian dialogue]

RB: Buio.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Buio, the darkness. And you know, they do in order to to not attract the bombers, they would they would paint the windows that would cover the windows that lights out all the time. And with the lockdown down, she says, of course, it wasn't darkness, but silence that struck her in silencio.

SOUNDCLIP

[Italian dialogue]

MEGAN WILLIAMS: She lives in a 500 year old palazzo in Florence on a very narrow street with a noise from the cars reverberate up her building. And so that stopped, of course, but she said it was just this this this awful anguishing sense of silence when she'd open the window and she wouldn't even hear a voice.

RB: I wonder, is she any in any way optimistic in her uncertainty, given everything she's already lived through?

MEGAN WILLIAMS: I think she is. I mean, she's worried like like a lot of people. But I think she also realizes, like a lot of people, that this is an incredible opportunity for change, that that if we're able to seise this moment, we can make things better in the world, and particularly with regards to the environment. I was in Milan last week, which is Italy's business and fashion and design centre. And and, you know, they're laying down kilometres of traffic light, transforming kilometres of traffic lanes into bike lanes and extra wide sidewalks. You don't get the pressure off public transit, but but there are people who would like to go even further. And I think people pushing for a sort of more visionary possibility of change. And when I was there, I spoke with architect and urban thinker Patricia Avielle, who is part of a movement that says, you know, this is the time to revision our cities entirely, you know, to talk about banning most of the cars, to reducing speed limits, to having vehicles take on the rhythms of people, not vice versa. And I thought she said something very interesting about what she hopes can happen out of this traumatic situation.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I think that the world is we really need to share. Not only did the urban space, we need to share information, we need to share data, we need to share what is coming up with the research on the virus. So we need to share more. And this would get more in depth in our behaviours.

RB: It's interesting because, you know, the pandemic has forced us all to shift our thinking in so many ways. And because you're sort of ahead of us in all of this, it's interesting to see where that thinking is going over there.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: And I do hope that this is a time where were were that we're able to use to try to bring about some changes that in normal times have proven impossible to implement.

RB: Thanks, Megan. I felt like I went to Italy just briefly.

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Thanks so much, Rosemary. It was fun talking.

RB: That's The Current guest host and CBC contributor Megan Williams. And she was in Rome. Well, back in February, we spoke with Dr. Paolo Navalesi, the head of Padua University's hospital intensive care unit. Since then, he himself contracted COVID-19. Docto Navalesi,good morning. Hello.

PAOLO NAVALESI: Good morning.

RB: Tell me first how you're doing. How are you? Have you recovered? How are you doing?

PAOLO NAVALESI: I'm perfect. I'm back to work since one month. So I'm pretty fine.

RB: And were you. Did you have very severe symptoms or how did you manage?

PAOLO NAVALESI: Oh absolutely. Very few and light symptoms. I was very, very lucky. I stayed at home. I never had respiratory distress or other symptoms. I was just as weak as I couldn't remember in my life and staying from bed to armchair for three or four days. And then the sensation of cold and broken muscles. And that is really what I got. Nothing more. Nothing more. I just took drugs at home and it was the kind of a ten days bad flu, something like this. Nothing more.

RB: You got lucky because I know your region in northern Italy was hit hardest. How are the numbers looking there now? How are the numbers there now?

PAOLO NAVALESI: Well, the number in the hospitals, you mean? They are excellent. We have only few patients in the ICUs, and most of the patients in the ordinary wards, infectious disease or a general medicine ward, they're pretty few. And things are getting really better and better, day by day.

RB: That's great.

PAOLO NAVALESI: I have to tell you, I am in a region which was the one who had the best results, which is Veneto and you probably heard about it. So we never run out of beds. ICU was always available to all patients. So we were not in the drama lived by my colleagues in Lombardi.

RB: Yes.

PAOLO NAVALESI: And by the way, the pandemic stays in Milan. I know it pretty well.

RB: As as we heard there from Megan, estaurants, places are opening in Italy very carefully. What are you worried about that? Do you think it's the right time or is it too soon?

PAOLO NAVALESI: Well, if I were not worried, I would be an idiot and we are all worried. Concerned. However, life has gone and the economy must run because we were really getting in trouble. So I think the approach used by the Italian Minister of Health is pretty safe and reasonable, and I hope we will be able to fool all the instructions and using masks and stay apart one from the other and avoid the crowded places and avoiding generally crowded places. And I think that if we will be able to handle these, that will be OK.

RB: Are you though, preparing for a second wave at this stage?

PAOLO NAVALESI: Who knows. You know these surprised me so many times, surprised me on a general point of view and surprised me as a physician and surprised me so many times that I'm not really keen in trying to guess what the future will be. I really don't know. I really don't know.

RB: Would Italy be able to handle a second wave?

PAOLO NAVALESI: I hope so. Again, I don't know. I hope so and, you know, I try to avoid guessing because I kind of scarmantic. I don't know. We I think we have to face it day by day. And we should be able not to lose the attention to what we are supposed to do as citizens. And what they tell you is, paradoxically, the place where today I feel safer is actually to the hospital where I am right now. Because here the controls are very tight and everything is extremely well organized, at least in the hospital in Padua where I work.

RB: Last time this program spoke with you, you hadn't seen your family for more than a month. Have you now had a chance to see them? What was that reunion like?

PAOLO NAVALESI: Yes, when it was possible for me as a resident in Milan to move from Padua, which is the place where I work to Milan, I went back. The first possible day, I stayed 82 days without seeing my family, which was pretty bad. But you know, today with this possibility, to call and see the faces and do Zooms connections and these kinds of stuff, things are much more reasonable than they would have been in the past.

RB: Still, I imagine there were lots of hugs.

PAOLO NAVALESI: A lot of sorry?

RB: A lot of hugs and kisses.

PAOLO NAVALESI: A lot of hugs and kisses. Yes of course. You know, we are Italians. Very expressive.

RB: You know, Canada hasn't hit the numbers that Italy dead, but we are slowly starting to reopen in much of the country and watching very closely how it's going in Italy. Would you have any advice for Canadians and for this country as we try and get past this this part of the disease?

PAOLO NAVALESI: As far as I know, you did pretty well. And as I don't believe there are major areas spare the from the virus. I'm led to believe you did well, you prepared it well and you took advantage of the weeks you had of a delay compared to Europe and Italy in particular. I'm led to think you are very good.

RB: We did ok.

PAOLO NAVALESI: Yes, you did pretty well. If I see what happens in other areas of North America, which impress me at all, I think you did very well. Very well.

RB: What what should we keep in mind as we go to reopen the economy in this country do you think?

PAOLO NAVALESI: I'm not sure I'm the right person to answer this.

RB: Well, just in terms of medical advice or public health advice, what should we keep in mind. Oh, and we've lost Dr. Navalesi. That was Dr. Paolo Navalesi, the head of Padua University Hospital's intensive care unit. He was on a cell phone. He was calling from the hospital. So these are the kinds of things that happen when you reach someone in Italy. But as you heard him say there, he now is feeling pretty good about the state of things in his hospital. That's where he says he feels the safest and even in Italy overall. All right. Coming up in about 90 seconds.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I feel like my birthday's going to be cancelled because of the COVID-19, so none of my friends can come over to my house. Right now, I'm really bored at home because there is nothing to do. When will this stop? The COVID-19 is annoying.

RB: Yes. Sing it. Annoying, indeed. That's just one of the submissions to a web site that lets kids write exactly what they think about living through a pandemic. We'll talk to its creator and one of the young writers after a short break. I'm Rosemary Barton, sitting in for Matt Galloway on this Monday morning, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: theme]

Canadian writer connects kids from around the world on their COVID experiences

Guests: Jeni Armstrong, Chloe Hassberger

RB: I'm Rosemary Barton and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I can't face the fact that I might spend a good chunk of my teenage years cooped up inside. I want to sit on someone's roof eating candy while we share insecurities or go on a late night picnic or go to the stampede at 10 p.m. and try all the food there while watching the stars. Amusement parks are the best. And I missed Oma and everyone. This sucks big time.

RB: Hard to argue with that. Mieka is twelve and lives in Calgary and what she just read there is part of her submission to The Kids Write.It's a website where young people are describing what it's like for them living through this pandemic. Jeni Armstrong created it. She's a writer and a parent in Ottawa and because Ottawa's very small, I do actually know her. Hello, Jeni, how are you?

JENI ARMSTRONG: Good morning. How are you?

RB: I'm good. So it does suck. This whole experience and what she wrote is actually, what Mieka wrote, is actually pretty melancholy. How typical is that in terms of what the kids are saying?

JENI ARMSTRONG: I think it's pretty accurate. Actually, I remember I posted because story I think the day that the Stampede got cancelled. So it's really sad. It's interesting, the kids are in their writing, I think very much who they are in real life. So some kids are sunny and bright and optimistic. And other kids are a little more thoughtful or a little more concerned or anxious. I think it's a pretty even balanced across the site as a whole.

RB: Yeah. I mean, they're sort of like the rest of us. Some of us are doing OK and not all of us. What else are they writing about in terms of their experiences?

JENI ARMSTRONG: In terms of their experiences, it's interesting. By far the number one thing that kids write about at school makes sense because they're missing it and it's definitely on their minds. A lot of them write about families as well. So when you think about the things that they're sad and that they miss, they miss school and they miss their friends. But there's a lot of gratitude for the time that kids have at home with their families as well, which I think is kind of neat.

RB: Yeah it is. What what was the inspiration behind this? Your kids or?

JENI ARMSTRONG: In part my kids. So March break wrapped up and all of a sudden school back on, except there was no school to send them to. And, you know, like millions of Pericles said, I was the teacher. I'm a writer professionally. So you tend to teach what you know. And I said, OK, guys, you're keeping a journal. Doesn't need to be detailed or long or complex. Just 50 words about whatever you're doing or thinking or feeling. And after doing that for a couple of days, I realized I started to see on social media that tother parents were doing the same. The teachers were asking their students to do the same. And I thought it would be really neat if there was one website of one place where we could bring all of the stories together. Partly so that kids could express themselves, but also so that they could read other kids stories as well.

RB: Yeah, totally.

JENI ARMSTRONG: And feel a little bit less alone in their experiences.

RB: Yeah, I mean, it's sort of like a time capsule in some ways. One of your early submissions came from a little boy named Charlie in Vancouver. What did he write?

JENI ARMSTRONG: That was, I loved Charlie's story because that was one of the first ones that came in and it was not somebody who I knew personally. So I was like oh, OK, this website has, there's something to this. I think he talked about about how he was missing school and how he was having to do some maths sheets that his grandma printed for him. And there was something about that that felt like a kind of universal experience.

RB: So we do have an almost 10 year old named Chloe Hassberger, who wrote in from Anten Mills, Ontario. And we actually have her on the line now. Hi, Chloe.

CHLOE HASSBERGER: Hi, Rosemary.

RB: So this is interesting. What made you want to write about your life right now?

CHLOE HASSBERGER: Well, my mom does know Jeni, but my mom told me about this and I'm like, ooh, other kids are on this, too. So I decided to write one. And I got actually a comment back from a boy named Lucas on my first one. And he was having the same pain as me. He thought his birthday was going to be cancelled. So then I decided to write another one. And this one was about two months ago, but still awesome though.

RB: Can you read me what you wrote for the for the website?

CHLOE HASSBERGER: OK. Hi. My name is Chloe and I'm 10 years old. I started reading a book called Black Stallion. It is about a boy and a black horse on a ship and the ship sank in a storm. My mom is a paramedic and my dad is a police officer. I feel really worried for them because they were afraid they were going to get sick. This sucks to be at home. Argh.

RB: I could relate to the argh for sure. So your parents are frontline workers. They're the people we're really counting on during all of this. How are they doing and how have you been managing that part of it?

CHLOE HASSBERGER: Well, a good amount of time, I spend my time with my grandparents in my basement, but when they're not at work, I spend as much time with them as possible.

RB: What are you missing most during all of this, Chloe?

CHLOE HASSBERGER: I miss my friends and school.

RB: Yeah, yeah. Jeni, whathas it been like for you your life and your two kids and has been has this website helped that process for you?

JENI ARMSTRONG: It really has. You know, we're, as you know our kids aren't in school right now. And when the news broke last week that they wouldn't be going back to school, I think that was kind of a tough day. So this is, I think, an opportunity for them to kind of continue to connect with other kids. What's really cool for them is that we have stories from 12 different countries around the world, including Canada. So they're able to see what's life like in Australia and in a whole bunch of different states in England, even in Senegal and India. So it's meaningful for them to have a broader experience of it, I think.

RB: What about, you know, we've talked a lot about how to talk to kids during this whole thing, how to explain things to them. And it's a challenge for a lot of parents. Has them putting things into their own words, trying to put their emotions on on paper or on a screen, as it were,d do you think that has helped them process what they're dealing with here?

JENI ARMSTRONG: I think it's helped kids. But I also think it's helped adults. I've heard from from a lot of people who don't have any kids in their lives who say that they regularly check the page just to kind of get a bit of a reality check. I think if you read the stories, there is a kind of hopefulness and resilience and humour there that is really inspiring.

RB: Chloe, just coming back to you, have you done anything to sort of, you know, keep yourself encouraged or given, you know, a pep talk? I don't know if you've got any of those rainbows in your windows or anything like that.

CHLOE HASSBERGER: Well, it's pretty hard since I'm an only child and I have no one to talk to, but I try my best to keep talking with my parents. They try to tell me everything and I try to tell them everything that's going on with me.

RB: That's great. Are you FaceTiming your or Skyping your friends at all? Can you do that?

CHLOE HASSBERGER: Yes. I can do that.

RB: And when you wrote down your feelings, how did that make you feel to write them down and then write them in a place where anyone could read them?

CHLOE HASSBERGER: Well, I wanted to show everyone that we all have the same pain. So I read a bunch of them and I'm like, well, I'm going to try and show my person. I'm going to show me to the world, basically.

RB: Right. That's amazing. What are you like what are you hoping you can do when things get back to whatever the new normal is Chloe? What's the first thing you'd wanted to do?

CHLOE HASSBERGER: See my friends. See my family and go back to school.

RB: Who can believe kids are pleading to go back to school?

CHLOE HASSBERGER: Yes.

RB: So, Jeni what is your hope for all of this? You know that you're gonna keep keep doing it throughout this, but what is your hope for, you know wha this does for for people, for kids, for their parents, for everyone.

JENI ARMSTRONG: I really hope that it just helps. Like like Chloe said, I hope it gives people permission to be honest about whatever they're experiencing. And when they read the stories to know that they're not alone. That if you're frustrated or lonely or scared or grateful, whatever you're feeling, it's all it's all part of a big hole. And there are a lot of people who are feeling exactly the same way.

RB: And Chloe, when is your birthday?

CHLOE HASSBERGER: Oh, it's June 3rd.

RB: June 3rd. Mine's on Sunday. I don't know what I'm going to do. What are your plans?

CHLOE HASSBERGER: Maybe I'll just spend time in my backyard in my pool.

RB: Yeah, that sounds good. Make sure you get a cake.

CHLOE HASSBERGER: Yes.

RB: Yes. Well, early happy birthday to you, Chloe. Thank you so much for chatting with us. It's great.

CHLOE HASSBERGER: Early happy birthday to you.

RB: Thank you. Chloe Hassberger contributed to The Kids Write website. And Jeni Armstrong, thank you so much for making the time this morning. Jeni, I appreciate it.

JENI ARMSTRONG: Thanks. Have a good day.

RB: Okay. Jeni Armstrong is the creator of The Kids Write.

[Music]

COVID forces Canadians to examine their end of life plans

Guests: David Butler, Daren Heyland, Helen Long

RB: I'm Rosemary Barton and you are listening to The Current. So it's not an easy thing to talk about and it's not really something anyone wants to plan for either, but right now, and very much spurred on by the pandemic, more people are thinking about talking about the end of life decisions. And David Butler is one of them. He's a lawyer in Mississauga. David, good morning.

DAVID BUTLER: Good morning, Rosemary.

RB: So I know that there are people around me having this conversation, but tell me why you felt that now was the time to make your end of life plans.

DAVID BUTLER: Well, I've been thinking about it for some time and I've been influenced by my wife who has this concept that responsible living means taking responsibility for one's death. And in the context of her own personal health situation, amplified by COVID-19, I went looking for a tool that would help us with decision making in our household.

RB: And was there such a tool?

DAVID BUTLER: There was. It was the Plan Well guide that Dr. Heyland put together and I found it to be really an outstanding tool.

RB: And we're going to talk to Dr. Heyland in a moment,b but what did it guide you through in terms of thinking about this?

DAVID BUTLER: Well, the process is one of, so it's multiple choice, and it uncovers values that are pertinent in the question of how do you want to die? What are your values? What's important to you? And it gives you the ability to communicate those values to the people you care about and to the potential caregivers. So they will be really well informed about what your wishes are as you approach this final phase of your life.

RB: So why do you think it's so important to let your family know very clearly what you want? And I guess more importantly, how did your family react to this? Because that's a hard conversation.

DAVID BUTLER: It is the tool enabled the difficult conversation. And it went very well because I it was neutral, non-emotional. It was not a stressful experience that one might envisage outside the hospital room, kind of saying, well, what did dad want? And they were very happy to know exactly what my values and my wishes are. And my son, with whom I discussed it in particular, said, thank you. And that's very clear. And it's stress relieving for me to know. So it facilitated a very good family discussion. And so my wife and my boys all know exactly what I want. I like the idea they know and I also like the idea that they are enabled to make decisions for me if that comes to that and that my wishes will be respected.

RB: Well, you're sort of taking the pressure off of them in many ways, right?

DAVID BUTLER: Totally.

RB: Yeah. What role do COVID-19 play in this? Because I will say, when you start thinking about respiratory problems and ventilators and and you your mind starts to, you know, spin out when you think about what could happen. Did you have those kinds of thoughts when you were going through this process?

DAVID BUTLER: The big thing about COVID-19 is that it gave this process some element of urgency. We all think about it, but we don't easily contemplate end of life or death — and it's something we'll get to next week, next month, next year. But COVID-19 brings all that forward. And it's important not to not to wait. So that's what it did for me.

RB: Let me bring in someone else into the conversation who you mentioned there, David. And it's Dr. Daren Heyland. He's the creator of the plan well, guide and a critical care specialist and professor at Queen's University. We've reached him in Lethbridge. Good morning, doctor.

DAREN HEYLAND: Good morning. Thanks for having me.

RB: Yeah. So you heard there from David and his sense of sort of a bit of urgency in really clearly laying out what was important to him as an end of life plan. Have you seen more people using the plan will guide since this started?

DAREN HEYLAND: Oh, yeah. We've had over a thousand fold increase in activity on our Web site. People are very interested and anxious about information they can use to help them plan for their serious illness.

RB: What kind of specifics does the guide get in to? You know, David, talk there about values. But does it also get into specifics like do not resuscitate orders, that kind of thing?

DAREN HEYLAND: Yeah, well, I guess I think at this point I want to make an important distinction between planning for serious illness, of which colvard is an example of where there's an uncertainty around what your outcome will be, whether you will live or die. I want to distinguish that from an end of life plan from someone who has advanced cancer and around a known trajectory towards death. The latter there is a bit easier to plan, but when you're dealing with uncertainty about if I get COVID pneumonia, what will happen to me? We really have to ground those medical decisions on the person's authentic values and inform treatment preferences. All right. So David, David mentioned, you know, tools that we use there to help the person be able to verbalize what they're what's really important to them in a way that's useful to us as doctors so that we can be sure that we're prescribing the right use of CPR or life-sustaining treatments, if that patient were to get sick and the other really important part of plan will guide is we're trying to provide enough information to people so they understand the difference between going to an ICU and being on a breathing machine or just receiving medical care on a hospital ward or comfort measures, only source of about informational decision made there as well.

RB: Do you think that since medical assisted dying legislation has come into place, that people are more willing to have these conversations even in the midst of a pandemic and an urgent situation?

DAREN HEYLAND: Yeah. You know, I think medical assistance in dying has been helpful in bringing that dialogue into the public space where it's OK for us now to talk about death. Talk about dying. Think ahead. Make a plan. And I just want to come back. And those were something that David really spoke to, too, as the importance of having that conversation public so that those around you, those that, you know, will likely be pulled in to help make decisions for you when you're seriously ill, that they know your wishes. I mean, my main motivation in doing this was my lived experience in dealing with family members of critically ill patients who experienced tremendous stress and trying to guess what dad or mom's wishes were. And for those families who were able to say all, you know, we had talked about this. These were mom's wishes. It was so much easier for them, for me, for us to make the right decision for that person.

RB: Right. Have you seen anyone struggling with that? Who who has contracted COVID or is not doing well and had a difficult conversation because they hadn't planned? Have you experienced that?

DAREN HEYLAND: Oh, for sure. That is a re-occurring scenario in hospitals while around the world as people arrive in this space where they're seriously ill, unfortunately ill prepared or not able to verbalize in a way that we can make meaningful use of that information to be sure that we're prescribing the right treatment. Again, 90 percent of the time, you as an individual won't be competent. You'll be too sick to think or to voice your wishes. And so we're leaning on that family member who unfortunately very infrequently is incapacitated or is knowledgeable about the person's wishes. And so it makes it for a very stressful decisional encounter.

RB: David, can I go back to you and just ask you how much more peace of mind do you have now that you've forced this difficult conversation and you went through this process?

DAVID BUTLER: Well, I'm very comfortable as a result of this, Rosemary. In fact, I found it quite liberating and empowering. One of the things I learned through this process is certainly as a lawyer got very clear understanding of the legal side of planning for death and the medical not so much about the medical side, which plan well helped inform me on. But I realized there's a big legal terminology is not helpful from a medical point of view. So that I thought as a lawyer, having laid all of this out, it was going to be crystal clear. But it's not it's it's helpful to me, but it's not helpful to clinicians. So that's a gap that Plan Well is closing.

RB: All right. Both of you, difficult conversation, but one that, as you say, people need to start having earlier than perhaps they'd like to do to save your family members from having to struggle with those decisions. Thank you so much for your time today, gentlemen.

DAREN HEYLAND: Thank you for having us.

DAVID BUTLER: Thank you.

RB: Thank you. David Butler is a lawyer who recently filled out the Plan Well guide documents. He was in Mississauga. And Dr. Darren Heyland is a critical care specialist and professor at the Queen's University. We reached him in Lethbridge, Alberta. Well, as I mentioned there. Ever since medical assistance in dying became law in Canada, the decisions around death aren't just about how. They also include when. Helen Long is the CEO of Dying With Dignity Canada. Good morning, Helen.

HELEN LONG: Good morning.

RB: So what has happened to the interest in MAID in medically assisted death since COVID began? Have you noticed any changes yet?

HELEN LONG: We're certainly having more inquiries than usual. And I think, you know, the conversation that you just had with both Mr. Butler and Dr Heyland, we would have had the same experience, a lot of interest in advance care planning. Some people asking us about made or medical assistance in dying as a as an option in the event they contracted COVID-19. But just a lot of conversations about making sure your family knows what your loved ones, what they would like you would like to happen in the event you were in a position like that.

RB: Well, let's go back to that issue about people with COVID-19 and access to MAID, medical assistance in dying. What is the situation there?

HELEN LONG: Well, if you contract COVID, you know, you end up in the ICU, the chances of you actually being able to complete a well, technically, you may be eligible just from a timing perspective and I think the work clinicians are having to do these days, it's highly unlikely. We know it's happened on occasion, but it's unlikely to happen. So we've really been focusing people on the ACP kits and doing that advanced care planning work. I think for individuals who are already planning a medically assisted death, we're seeing across the country that clinicians are still managing to provide those services and still managing to connect with people. So we've been really you know, it's been really great to see the commitment from the practitioners to to help Canadians who have made that choice to follow through.

RB: Well, I was going to ask you, are there any sort of practical issues around this, whether it be equipment, drug shortages, whether doctors? Is it safe to go in and and have a medical assisted death right now, you know? Is it safe for the doctors? What about all those things?

HELEN LONG: Yeah, I think like everything right now, there's there's reasonable precautions that have to be taken. So obviously, more use of PPE, some some institutions that, you know, are having to manage the way they deliver made in terms of where you're located a little differently. We're not seeing as many, you know, in home made procedures as we may have in the past. So, yeah, adjustments have been made and it's been really great to see many of the provincial regulators. BC is a good example, have made amendments to the process such as tele assessments, so that people can continue to access these services and do it in a way that is safe for both the individual but also the practitioners involved.

RB: Well, it's really interesting to hear how even that part of our health care system is having to adapt. What do you tell people who are looking to do this in the midst of a pandemic, who have an underlying condition, who are near death? What are you telling people in terms of advice?

HELEN LONG: Well, we continue to be a conduit to help people navigate that process. You know, Canadians who are looking at a medically assisted death are generally, you know, they're suffering from a grievous and irremediable condition, that they're an intolerable suffering. So we're just continuing to help them navigate that process. And in the end, helping them to get this the good death and to to make the end of life choices that they need to make.

RB: I want to play a clip of Dr. Stephanie Green, the president of the Canadian Association of MAID Assessors, about, you know, who who can access this. Here's what she had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I'm often holding the hands of my patients. There's often a very intimate, physically close event. But with COVID we've had to really reconsider that and rethink how to do it in a safe manner. We're starting to regress the people, limit the number of people that are present. I'm often wearing some element of personal protective equipment, even without COVID pauses status,I'm wearing a surgical mask and gloves. So that skin to skin contact, that hand-holding is disappearing and the events feel very different than they used to. There's a more medicalization that's just counterintuitive for me and for my colleagues that normally do this work.

RB: I hadn't thought of that. Of course, we've talked a lot about, you know, people not being able to attend funerals and have real services for their people, for people who have died of COVID. I hadn't thought about how it has changed, you know, how a medical assistant death takes place. How difficult is that for people's families for those around them?

HELEN LONG: Oh, I can only imagine it's incredibly difficult. I think, you know, there's a number of stories on our Web site as an example, individuals or family members whose loved ones have gone through a medical assistance and dying process, talking about the, you know, the being there, the holding hands, those last words. So to lose that element, I think, you know, Stephanie, certainly contributing and supporting her care patients where she can, but I'm sure it must be, it must be devastating for them.

RB: Well, just even the idea that it's a clinical experience as opposed to an emotional or a family experience, I would imagine. Right?

HELEN LONG: Yeah.

RB: So the pandemic is as as it has with many things, has delayed some of the federal government's planned changes to the MAID law. Just remind us what was still in the works before all of this happened.

HELEN LONG: Yes. So we actually have two things going on with medical assistance in dying laws. This year we have Bill C-7, which is a bill that the government put forward to make amendments to the law, allowing for some changes in regards to your death being reasonably foreseeable. What we call Audrey's, and then sorry, what we also call Audrey's Amendment, the ability to provide final consent when you've lost capacity. So a clause to help support people who have reached that point. So that's one piece that had just hit second reading when the pandemic kind of came to fruition. And then the second is there's a in 2016, when the law was enacted, the government made a commitment to do a five years legislative review. So that was scheduled to begin in June of this year.

RB: Does that worry you, these delays?

HELEN LONG: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, at this point, we have not you know, we have not heard that any decisions have been made and no revised timelines have been communicated. But but the people who are suffering and particularly, I think C-7 with a bit of a light at the end of the tunnel for some people. You know, they're still suffering. So we've strongly encouraged the government to continue to do whatever they can to make sure they address this issue within the timeline so that we're committed to, well, you know, obviously recognizing the situation we're in.

RB: Helen Long, thank you so much. I appreciate you speaking about this today.

HELEN LONG: You're so welcome. Thanks.

RB: Helen Long is the CEO of Dying With Dignity Canada.

Closing with Tom Power

Guests: Tom Power

RB: Well, that is our program for today. Listen to The Current live from anywhere on your phone or tablet. You can catch up on the show highlights on demand anytime through the CBC Listen app. Q is up next. And before I hand over, Tom Power is with us. Hi, Tom.

TOM POWER: Rosemary, my God, it's so nice to talk to you.

RB: We should do this more often.

TOM POWER: I had no idea. I had no idea it was you today. I'm so excited. How are you doing?

RB: I'm good. We had to give Matt one day off after doing those three hour marathons. Glad you're back on the air though. So great.

TOM POWER: I'm happy to be here. We got a big show today. Sun-Hyung Lee from Kim's Convenience, about to be the first Chinese superhero universe.

RB: Ah great.

TOM POWER: And Noah Reid from the show Schitt's Creek, who I ended up adding on Instagram and I found out that every single person I follow, especially if they're a gal, follows him. A bit of a dreamboat. You can hear it over the radio. You doing good?

RB: I'm doing, you know, pretty well, all things considered. It's good to be busy. It's good to be working.

TOM POWER: Well, you've been keeping me up to date on the television, and I'm glad to hear you on the radio as well.

RB: Yeah, well, you are always entertaining me. So have a good show, Tom.

TOM POWER: Get out of here.

RB: Thank you.

TOM POWER: Nice to talk to you. Bye.

RB: You too. Bye. Tom Power will be here with Q right after the CBC News. I'm Rosemary Barton, sitting in for Matt Galloway who had a well-deserved day off. Thanks for listening to The Current. I'll see you back on the TV. Bye bye.

[Music: theme]

May 25, 2020 episode transcript

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