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The Current Transcript for June 13, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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There is limitless residue, actually, of human empathy when only people see these terrible things happening in impoverished countries, they want something to be done, but it's hard to keep the whole picture in your mind.

MATT GALLOWAY: Mark Lowcock has seen the best and worst of humanity as the former head of humanitarian relief for the United Nations. It was his job to visit scenes of suffering after conflict or disaster and to get the world to care enough to help. He's here in half an hour to talk about whether the U.N. can still bring the world together. His worries that the crisis in Ukraine is overshadowing other emergencies and the ethics of working with aggressors to help the victims of war. Also this morning, climbing Everest is a remarkable achievement. You probably feel pretty good about yourself if you did it once. How about ten times?

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Speaker 3: You know my mom. So maybe she'll say, Oh, my daughter is I wanted housewife. But I had adifferent kind of dream and I followed my dream slowly, slowly. Never not give up, I reach ten times the top of the world.

MG: Lhakpa Sherpa grew up in the shadow of Mount Everest. She's the first woman to reach the summit ten times in an hour. How she defied her parents to do what she loved and how she and others are working to spread the joy of the outdoors to as many people as possible. We start, though, with indigenous youth south of the border, bringing their ancestors home. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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How the Rosebud Sioux Tribe brought the remains of their lost children home

Guest: Wawmeesh Hamilton

MG: It's been more than a year since the first announcement of the discovery of unmarked graves on the site of a former residential school. Since then, there have been many more similar discoveries. Once those sites have been investigated, indigenous groups have to decide what to do next with what's found beneath the ground. This is a process that's well underway in some parts of the United States. The CBC's Wawmeesh Hamilton visited one reservation that's brought some remains home. And just a warning, we're talking about the legacy of residential schools in this story. Wawmeesh, good morning.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: Good morning, Matt. Thank you for having me on.

MG: Thanks for being here. Where did you go?

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: We travelled to Mission, South Dakota, and that's the home of the Rosebud Sioux Indian tribe. They're also known as the Second [unintelligible], which are one of seven Lakota peoples. Just a few minutes outside of Rosebud, there's a graveyard and it's the second you tribal veteran's cemetery. And that's where some of the remains that were repatriated last summer are buried. Rosebud Sioux Indian tribe member Jessica Twichell brought us to the graveyard.

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JESSICA: We have our warriors here to protect them. We felt like that was appropriate. Now it's a veteran cemetery. And, you know, they were, when they were taken, they were just children. And so we wanted to bring them back. And here they're protected forever because this whole place will be filled with veterans and just the design and the layout. So it's very peaceful out here.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: With flowers and even a toy for their names. So let's see who they were. Warren Painter. I don't see his age. Lucy Takepill.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: I'm reading the names of six of nine children whose remains were brought home from the Carlisle Indian Industrial School last year.

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My Little Girl, Calvin Killed Seven Horses.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: The names are handwritten and they're on white sheets of paper inside these black plastic markers that mark each of the children's graves.

MG: I mean, just as you describe that, you get a really powerful image in your mind of what it looks like. What was it like to see that firsthand?

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: It's almost beyond words. It really hit my soul when we first got to the graveyard and I first saw how small each of those burial plots are and how each had a name in it very much personalised it. There was like a wind, a light wind sweeping through the flat landscape, and it really enhanced the smell of plum trees and the sound of metal arcs that were nearby and common there. Bringing these kids remains home has been a long and difficult process.

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JESSICA: I felt like it definitely opened up the opened up a wound that needs healing still. I felt like it, it definitely opened the eyes for the community and a lot of healing that still needs to be done.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: Getting them back here. Getting them back home took more than 100 years.

MG: So go back to the beginning of the story then. Why did these children end up so far away from home? How did that happen?

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: It was federal government policy, much like in Canada. In the U.S., thousands of indigenous kids were forced to attend these Indian boarding schools between 1869, and they closed in the 1960s. And much like here, the schools were a place where they were assimilated into European culture. Kids had their haircut. They had to wear European clothes. They could only speak English. They were sent so far away from home, their homes, because essentially what that did was that it severed the connection to family and the influence of family and culture on the kids. The school at Carlisle, for instance, where the Rosebud kids were sent. It was four states in 1400 miles from their home.

MG: And what kind of school was it.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: Is called the Carlisle Indian Industrial School. And that was in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. And the creator of the school was a man by the name of Richard Henry Pratt, who was a U.S. Army general. And he coined the schools purpose, and that was to kill the Indian inside the person and save the man. Education was minimal at best, and essentially what they were teaching kids to be were labourers and domestic workers. And the children who died there were buried there.

MG: Which is such a familiar story to so many people here in Canada as well. How did it come to be that these remains were brought back to South Dakota?

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: It was a group of young people from Rosebud who went to the Unity Conference at the White House in 2015. And on their way back, they stopped at Carlisle because their chaperone said it was a place that was significant in their history. There they found the gravesites where their ancestors, who were their peers, really were buried grave after grave. Said Sioux boy, Sioux girl, Sioux infant, Sydney Horse Looking and Christopher Eagle Bear were part of that group.

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CHRISTOPHER: When I stepped into that cemetery, I felt that's where my heaviness started, if that makes sense. That's from all the pressure, all the the feeling in the air, the energy. That's when it all began. It was whenever we got to that cemetery.

SYDNEY: One of our spiritual leaders advises to take offerings. So those offerings were candy and tobacco. It's usually tobacco for us native people, but the candy, the spirits of the children requested candy.

CHRISTOPHER: So we went to every single cemetery headstone and we left a piece of candy for them.

SYDNEY: Myself, I would go down and read the name of the tombstone and then leave my offering, the next one, just one after another. And I was while I was reading those names, there was a lot of unknowns and infants. And that kind of struck me as to why isn't this child's actual name on this headstone?

CHRISTOPHER: There's this feeling of like it's like a feeling of peace after you get done crying. That's what it felt like. I felt like peace if I like if I like hope. That makes sense. If you know what hope feels like, that's what it felt like.

SYDNEY: Also really saddening for me because some of these children are probably younger than I am. An instant child, someone's sister, someone's brother, someone's nephew, niece laying there, just waiting, waiting, waiting to go home, waiting to see their family again.

CHRISTOPHER: Our group that went down, they were around 12 to 17. And these kids that we got to see at these graves, they're around the ages of like eight, ten for three, you know, buried. The oldest one I think was 12, 13.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: What went through your mind when you saw those ages?

CHRISTOPHER: I, I saw my family. I saw my cousins. I saw my relatives. I saw myself. You know, because at some point, we were all at that age, we were all innocent kids, you know, trying to live and just trying to live, have fun.

SYDNEY: I asked, we have all these all this money and all these material items, all these materials and the money now, why haven't we brought them home? Why are they still there?

CHRISTOPHER: And that right there, why don't we bring them home? They set off this big movement for not just our people, but pretty much the whole nation as a whole, every indigenous nation as a whole that had to go through such perfect things.

MG: Christopher Eagle Bear there says that this is a movement. Tell me about the movement that this visit sparked.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: That event signals great, is just it stuck with them, that it resonated in them when they got home. And a month later they appeared before their tribal council and they asked that same question that they had asked at the graveside, why aren't they home? And they never got an answer right away. But that started the movement for repatriation.

MG: How easy was repatriation to do?

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: Tribal officials said it wasn't easy at all. They said that there was a lot of bureaucracy involved, that there were many delays as a result of that. And then the pandemic hit. And Sydney Horse Looking told me not everyone always agreed with repatriating the remains and bringing them home.

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SYDNEY: There's been a lot of people we've come across who came up to me personally and said, you know, why are you doing this? They're they're dead. They're they've been buried. They've been there for so long. Why are you doing this? Why now? Like, what's the big deal? And my honest responses. Everybody thinks different. And for me, it's bringing them home to their mom, to their to their grandma, to their family, coming home because a lot of our culture was stripped away when they were sent there. And it's just coming home and being able to be yourself again, to speak your language, to grow your hair out, to wear your regalia, to...

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: To be free.

SYDNEY: To be free, to be who you are.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: Why was it important for you to have them home?

SYDNEY: Well, now I'm a mom, and I couldn't imagine my daughter being sent somewhere and me never seen again. It's just like the mothers worry. Like a constant where is she? How is she doing? Is she alive? Did she eat today? Did she sleep okay? Just worries like that. Coming from a mother's perspective is what now, what makes me so sad.

MG: So, tell me how long this process took, this this whole process.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: Tribal officials said that it took six years of negotiating with the United States government and the United States Army. The Army was involved because Carlisle is now an Army college. One of the things that they said was that the remains had been disinterred and reburied several times to make room for a parking lot and other expansion. The leaders I spoke to were really upset by how the remains were treated, but they didn't get into detail about the negotiations or that because the tribe is now at the centre of litigation over it.

MG: So they go through the negotiations and then in the end they were able to bring home some of their ancestors. How did they actually do that?

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: Well, nine children were identified through school records and through work done by the Council of Spiritual People. A caravan of members from Rosebud travelled to Carlisle to retrieve the remains last summer. And they actually retraced, they drove the original nearly 1400 mile route that the children originally took across four states when they were first taken from the schools 140 years ago. When they arrived at South Dakota, they stopped at a place called Whetstone Landing by the river.

MG: What is so significant about that site in particular?

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: It's the last place parents saw those original children live before they boarded a paddle wheeler were taken to Carlisle. I'll never forget Sydney describing how as mother, it hurt her to think about what those original mothers who saw those kids off in the paddle wheelers thought and felt watching their kids leave because a lot of those kids started dying six months later.

SYDNEY: When they came. When I seen the cars and everyone escorting them down to Whetstone, it just felt like like a huge relief. Like, Oh, they're home, they've made it. They travelled all this time again and they made it. It didn't feel like it was real. It felt like. Like it was almost like a dream. Like, wow. Today's the day.

CHRISTOPHER: 140 some years later, it felt like a release. You can breathe for the next hour, you know, like that. Like you can finally take a break for just a minute. I feel like this spirits can finally start crying, stop mourning, and hopefully go see their families and if not, come back around and be reborn into this world again, but live the life that they're supposed to live. You know, for a lot of relatives here that never spoke of their experiences in boarding school, started to speak. They started to feel comfortable and strong enough, safe enough to feel that their stories should be heard, too. You know.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: That's something that really struck me, that the young people didn't have an awareness about residential school beyond knowing that their grandfather, their grandmother, their great grandfather, their great grandmother went to the school. And that's it. That's all that they knew. There wasn't the the universal awareness of residential school as I found amongst the people that there is here.

MG: In some ways they're at an earlier part of what people in this country have been going through.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: Yeah, they're essentially we're first nations in Canada were in 2009 when the Truth and Reconciliation Commission got off the ground.

MG: So as we've learnt, they brought the remains back. But you mentioned that only some of them are buried at that veterans graveyard near Rosebud.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: Yes, only six of the children who were repatriated are buried there. The other three remains were given to the families. Dwaine Hollow Hornbear is one of the descendants that we spoke to who received those one of the remains. He's a Lakota language teacher who teaches at an immersion school at the tribal high school. And he showed me a white card that was attached to the box containing his ancestors remains when it arrived. And it said, Friend, Hollow Horn Bear May the 21st, 1886. He didn't know if that was the day he was taken to the school or the day he died. And Friend was his grandfather's brother's son.

DWAINE: I don't know where he would have got the name Friend, because for us, in our language, it was a [unintelligible]. I'm a friend. I'm an ally. I feel that he didn't want no violence. He didn't want no confrontation. So he was addressing himself as [unintelligible] and so interpreter saying he's a friend. He didn't have a first name. And so they gave him the name Friend Hollow Hornbear.

MG: And Dwaine didn't want friends remains to be buried at the veterans ceremony with the others.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: You know, when children were taken and sent to the schools, indigenous people I found never had control over any of the situation from beginning to end. But what I saw and what I found in the repatriation of the remains in Rosebud was that it represented indigenous control from start to finish for the first time.

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DWAINE: I think there's a lot of things that changed. For me, it solidifies my belief in who I am. I feel that my grandfather is working through me and one day we're bringing him home to talk was where we're going to put him and says, I want the remains of Hollow Hornbear back. I will deal with the remains myself. Where are you going to put him? I says that I'm not going to tell you and I'm not going to show you. I'll take care of that. I just want the remains back. We just took his remains out of a military cemetery, and you're going to place them back into a military cemetery. That's not closure. Not for me. I want the remains of my relative. I'm going to set his spirit free. And so I dealt with it in my own way and spoke with him in prayer and. You're home. You're home. Rest here.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: How does it feel to know he's home now?

DWAINE: I'm elated. I'm happy, and I'm at peace now. The tears are going to turn to tears of happiness. Not sadness and anger or frustration, the tears of happiness of the sense home now back on the homeland of where they grew up.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: He said that when Lakota people are born, their names are called out four times. That's to signal the spirit world that they've arrived. There's somebody here now, and when they die, the same thing happens. They call out their names four times and they come down and they have an empty horse with them. And that horse is for the departed to ride back to where they were from. But they never had that chance. 140 years of bringing them back, he was able to to deal with that in their traditional way.

MG: That speaks to how this story has impacted people involves at a very deep level. I mean, there's a spiritual component to what it is as you're talking about, what it is that they've witnessed as well.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: Very much so. I found that in each of the people we interviewed, Rachael Janis, who is another young person who went on that first trip, told me about how this all has affected her.

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RACHEL: I just know that this has to do with something spiritual, too, you know, they're probably on the other side of the relatives. And when my grandpa and my grandma were here, my brother passed away a year ago, my aunt put passed away four years ago and to them it meabt so much that we were doing this because it was like they were, we were bringing their sisters home, their brother's home. And so it means a lot to me personally. And if I could sit down with my my grandparents. Sorry. And if I could sit there with my grandparents and tell them, you know what, we did this.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: Do you think they know?

RACHEL: I think they know. I think you know, because, you know, as Lakotas or as indigenous people, you know, we we are not only physically in tune with ourselves, we're spiritually tuned as well. And so, you know, we use our ability to connect with our ancestors and our spirits. And so I feel like they they they have to know.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: There's one story that so many of the people that we we interviewed told me, and it was a very significant moment for all of them. It happened on the youth group's first trip to Carlisle, and it showed them it demonstrated to them that there are greater forces maybe that we can't see that were amongst them that day. Here's Rachel again.

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RACHEL: When we were leaving, there was a huge tree that sat in between the headstones. There was fireflies coming up from the ground and they were swarming us, you know. So they were loading up on the bus. Me and my friend one got on her end and, you know, just wouldn't leave. I called it friend, I was calling it friend. And I was saying, you know, goodbye, friend, we're going to to leave you and we can't take you right now and stuff like that. And she took the firefly and she gently took it off her hand and out the window. And we were talking to it like it was like an actual person, like it was one of the kids. And also 36 months later, we found out the names of the children that are buried there. You know, just to find out that one of our relatives is named friend. And it was like, you know, this was meant to happen.

MG: That's really powerful. What are the lessons for first nations here who are at the beginning of of this part of the process? What could they learn from what these young people have accomplished south of the border?

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: Well, a couple of things. First, if I may, please. One is that we're dealing with a couple of different contexts. Carlisle was an army base, and the [unintelligible] people had to negotiate with the United States government and the United States Army. And here that's not the case. It's usually negotiations between first nations who had children, who attended a residential school that is in the territory of a host first nation. And when we were asking [unintelligible] tribal officials, you know, what advice would you have? The tribal officials were careful to say that they were offering, that they were suggesting, and that they didn't want to impose. And having said that, they said that the process is going to be really long, that there's something you need to be mindful of straight from the outset. And it really tests your patience and your anger as well as your faith. And the other thing was this came from one of the youth, involved the youth from the outset. You don't underestimate them because they started this and look what happened.

MG: Wawmeesh, thank you very much.

WAWMEESH HAMILTON: Thank you for having me on.

MG: Wawmeesh Hamilton is the indigenous affairs reporter for CBC Vancouver. CBC News is next. And then I'll speak with Mark Lowcock, former U.N. relief chief, about the successes and failures of humanitarian aid efforts. I'm Matt Galloway. This is The Current. We're back in six minutes.

Saving lives in dire times — and the ethics of working with aggressors

Guest: Mark Lowcock

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, we bring the mountaintop to you, sort of. Two unique stories from Everest by two climbers who have achieved firsts in a crowded field. But first, holding the humanitarian aid world to account.

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MG: Mark Lowcock has been on the front lines of some of the worst conflicts and disasters in the past five years.

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VOICE 1: With 18 medical facilities and 17 schools destroyed or damaged in just three weeks. There were even more powerful words from the UN's most senior humanitarian official.

VOICE 2: When I briefed you here on 18 September, I said a full scale military onslaught could result in the worst humanitarian tragedy of the 21st century.

VOICE 3: The U.N. estimates Yemen's COVID 19 death rate to be five times that of the global average.

VOICE 4: And that's because the health system is basically collapsed.

VOICE 3: It's displaced. The U.N. humanitarian affairs chief, Mark Lowcock, on Wednesday met with South Sudan's opposition leaders in Monda. And it's evident from the talks that the ongoing bloodshed has to be stopped.

VOICE 5: The suffering of ordinary people is unimaginable. The peace process so far has produced nothing. The economies collapsed. Belligerents use scorched earth tactics, murder and rape as weapons of war. These are all gross violations of international law.

MG: As the United Nations coordinator for Humanitarian Affairs from 2017 through 2021, it was Mark Lowcock job to coordinate aid and rally international support for people caught in the world's most desperate crises. Now that he's left that post, he's reflecting on what he's learnt in a new memoir called Relief Chief A Manifesto for Saving Lives in Dire Times. Mark Lowcock is in London. Good morning.

MARK LOWCOCK: Good morning to you.

MG: You dedicate this book to the people you met who were the victims of humanitarian crises, the people that you were trying to help. How did you see your role when you were talking to those people in the midst of such a crisis who are incredibly vulnerable? And you are there to lend an ear and hopefully to bring the world's aid to them. What did you see as your role?

MARK LOWCOCK: Well, firstly, it was to make sure I understood all the humanitarian crises around the world and to advocate for solutions to those crises and above all, to do it from the perspective of all the innocent people who, through no fault of their own, were the victims and survivors. And you know, the thing I learnt more than anything else, doing that job, travelling to more than 50 countries, always at the lowest moment in those countries, is that the people caught up in these crises are absolutely the same as all the rest of us, except that life's lottery has been crueller to them than to us. And for that human reason alone, I wanted to bring this story to people who could help them.

MG: You say that what stayed with you in that job the most are the stories, and in particular the stories of women and girls. I mean, what are the encounters that really stay in your memory, that stand out to you?

MARK LOWCOCK: I'll never forget meeting a woman in the east of Congo who told me that she'd been gang raped by a group of men in military uniform with guns. They left her with severe physical injuries. She was traumatised. She was ostracised by her own community, even though she'd done nothing wrong. So she needed help to find somewhere new to rebuild her life. And she also wanted justice. So that was one encounter. I'll never forget hearing the children of Syria asking me why their President and Vladimir Putin were bombing them and why the world couldn't make it stop. I'll never forget seeing refugees, particularly in the Horn of Africa, fleeing from fighting and famine. But as you said, it is often the women and girls who suffer most. And, you know, as a man from an elite Western privileged background, listening to women and girls, describing their vulnerability and the suffering they face, but also being inspired by their resilience. Those are the things that I think everyone else needs to hear and know about, too. To get more help to these people who've done nothing wrong and we should really all care about.

MG: How do you cope with the fact that people's attention to these crises? Can be really fleeting and that, you know, the story of a young woman from the Congo doesn't get anywhere near as much attention as a child under siege, for example, in Ukraine.

MARK LOWCOCK: Yes. And that has got harder to deal with that problem as the number of humanitarian crises has really exploded over the last five years. I mean, there's a massive increase in them during the time I was doing that job at the UN and it was a constant challenge juggling balls to ensure that both the new problems were paid attention to. And we must we must really have a focus on Ukraine for all sorts of reasons. But if we do that by forgetting about the problems like Afghanistan we were focussed on just a few months ago, we're going to create all sorts of problems we don't want to create. So gaining the public's attention, firstly to the new crises is an important thing to do. But then policy makers in countries which can make a difference by providing money or or exerting pressure on participants to conflict, to behave in a different way. That's an important thing to do because it's not realistic to expect the public can keep all these problems in their minds all the time. We have to rely on policymakers to play their part.

MG: You've said that Britain is diverting money from starving people in Afghanistan and Yemen to deal with the crisis in Ukraine.

MARK LOWCOCK: Yes, I work for the British government for more than 30 years and for much of that time I was proud that Britain was a progressive, leading country, genuinely leading country, and providing more assistance to people, better quality assistance, working with other countries. And it's embarrassing and shameful to me that in the midst of the pandemic, when most of the better off countries were keeping going with their help, even though we had huge domestic problems at home, Britain was really the only big country that wasn't doing that.

MG: What is that about? I mean, more broadly, not just for the UK, how how the world chooses which crisis it's going to focus its attention on.

MARK LOWCOCK: Well, I'm nearly 60. I'm going to be 60 next month. And my experience over the course of my lifetime is that life has gotten much better for most people on the planet. Decade after decade, few people are less likely to die early. They're less likely to watch their children die in infancy, they're less likely to be hungry. And there was continuous progress for many decades. But that progress stopped really between five and ten years ago. And what we've seen in the period since then is because of a combination of conflict, more conflicts around the world, the climate change impacts on these poor countries and COVID, the number of people caught up in these crises is now higher than it's ever been. I think there is a limitless residue, actually, of human empathy. When ordinary people see these terrible things happening in impoverished countries, they want something to be done. But it's hard to keep the whole picture in your mind. So what tends to be in many people's minds is the latest thing that's happened and something that's new to them or they can relate to easily. That's one of the reasons why Ukraine has been such a big deal for many people, because they can see themselves in the Ukrainians. They think the Russians are of France. They're appalled by the deliberate targeting of civilians in hospitals and refugees by the Putin government. And they want help to get to people. And they also want those that can to provide assistance to the Ukrainians to resist and defend themselves.

MG: And in those crises, people turn to bodies like the United Nations for not just aid, but also for some sort of stability in a world that feels like it points its, you know, tipping on its axis. You worked with the United Nations as part of this body. And it is this is something that you refer to in the book. It's become standard in many ways for people to talk about the U.N. being bureaucratic and inefficient. You quote an official from Human Rights Watch saying that dealing with U.N. officials is like dealing with members of a dysfunctional, rich family that despise each other. Is it is it that bad? Is the U.N. that broken?

MARK LOWCOCK: Well, firstly, humanitarian agencies, especially UN agencies, but also the Red Cross and the NGOs do basically a good job in helping people in crises. They reach more than 100 million people a year and they certainly save millions of lives a year. Without that happening, things would be a lot worse. But the UN is bureaucratic and not as efficient as it should be. The bigger problem though is that the UN really is a reflection of the views and the differences of views of these powerful countries.

MG: How has that played out, for example, in Syria?

MARK LOWCOCK: Well, Syria was the most extreme humanitarian crisis really since the Second World War, and it saw a resumption of kind of atrocities that we haven't seen for a long, long time chemical weapons, deliberate targeting of hospitals and clinics, the use of starvation and sieges as a weapon of war. Now, more than 30 countries had their military involved in Syria at one time or another. People went to fight in the conflict. More than 100 countries. The bulk of the pain and the suffering, of course, was accrued by Syrians themselves. And the UN found itself the place where all those countries or different states were arguing with each other and how the humanitarian agencies were able to do some remarkable things, feeding 10 million people a month for much of the conflict and raising money to do that and taking aid across the border against the wishes of the Syrian government from Jordan and Turkey and Lebanon brought in to save people's lives. And the Security Council all had to sign up to that for four years on end. But as time passed, they geopolitical differences became more prominent. The Russians started to veto more and more resolutions, and they the situation has deteriorated. There's not as much fighting, but there's absolutely no improvement in the lives of ordinary people.

MG: I guess it's important in part because, as you say, if players in conflicts are increasingly ignoring international law when it comes to protecting civilians, how do you go about reversing that trend? The disregard for international laws around armed conflict and bringing some rules back, if I can put that that way to war.

MARK LOWCOCK: Yeah, I mean, that's that's a huge issue. And one of the major really crucial fighting issues we face right now. And essentially what we've seen is the Russians have concluded the laws of war, which go back to the middle of the 19th century, no longer work for them. And I think what we need to do is three or four things all at the same time. Firstly, let's all remind ourselves why the laws of war were created. And they were originally agreed because. Those putting armies on the battlefields in Europe in the middle of the 19th century decided that they wanted to be able to evacuate their own wounded soldiers and civilians. In order to evacuate their wounded, they needed to recognise they'd have to let the other side do the same thing. Secondly, you really have to call out violations when they occur. I think it was very good that Antonio Guterres went to Moscow in Kyiv and looked Putin in the eye and said, you are obliged under international law to let those civilians and women and children out of Mariupol while you're bombarding it. And then the next thing that has to happen is you have to investigate and gather evidence, get ready for the day where you may be able to bring those responsible for atrocities into court. And that has happened. I worked on the Bosnian war in the early nineties and we were all tearing our hair out about whether there would ever be accountability. Lo and behold, Mladic, Milosevic, Karadzic charges were brought to The Hague and they did pay a price. And the same thing has happened to some Syrians who committed atrocities during the war that have been prosecuted, convicted and imprisoned by courts in Germany.

MG: You mentioned guitarist meeting Vladimir Putin, and this raises the kind of ongoing conflict between engagement versus neutrality. And you write about trying to raise money from the government of Saudi Arabia to help provide relief for the people who are suffering through the war in Yemen when it's the Saudi government that was helping to fuel that conflict. How do you that seems like an inherent contradiction to people. How do you explain that?

MARK LOWCOCK: It's a huge dilemma, as you say. And we wrestle with it all the time and ultimately came down basically to doing two things at the same time. One, we were extremely critical of those who, you know, whose warplanes were bombing Yemen, all from civilian facilities. And there's a picture in the book of Me live on Saudi television complaining that two days before the Saudi air force had been dropping bombs very near my office, in fact, on the day I arrived in the capital of Yemen. So you have to call out those unacceptable as an acceptable act. But at the same time, you have to get money to save lives from wherever you can get it. And there's another picture in the book of the Saudis giving me a check for $500 million so that the UN could feed 10 million people a month. And my conclusion was that the only way to resolve that fundamental dilemma was to keep doing the things that were right and needed to be done. So call out the violations, but also get the money without conditions and use it to save people's lives.

MG: People are fiercely critical of approaches like that. And you say in the book that we need to be more honest and have a more honest and nuanced conversation about the trade-offs that humanitarian organisations navigate. So what what does that nuance look like?

MARK LOWCOCK: For the people who are critical. If they're not careful, box themselves into a corner of saying it would be better not to take money which you could use to save millions of lives and let those people perish. And that really is the line of argument that I think is not an acceptable line of argument. You have to save the lives which can be saved if you can get the money to do it, even if you're holding your nose, you know, what you have to do is have an open, honest, full discussion about the trade offs and dilemmas. I think you have to try to save the lives that can be saved, you know, in whatever the circumstances are.

MG: Why is it important for you to involve the countries where the aid is going in the decision making process, something that, as you say, does not happen nearly enough?

MARK LOWCOCK: Aid agencies only ever need two things in order to save lives. Firstly, they need someone to get the money to run the programmes, and secondly, they need the permission from whoever is in charge, in control in military control of the places where the people who need help. So that does mean that you're always having to have discussions with whether it's a rebel group or an opposition group or a government or some of that controlling power of a big military force. My other beef really in this the thing that I got increasingly frustrated about was that as time passed, I, I came to feel more and more that a big kind of Achilles heel for the humanitarian system is that all the decisions are taken between the people who provide the money from Western donors or international NGOs and the agencies doing the work. The voice of the people who need the help is often not heard at all. And that's a huge problem because it means that people are stripped of their agency and their ability to have any influence and control over their own lives. That's a dimension of the suffering of people in this circumstance. It also often means that health wasn't, people's priorities get provided, and then they sell it for something they want more.

MG: Why do you think that's happening? People have said that in some ways this is a colonial mentality, that it sounds like, you know, somebody rides in on the white horse and I'll be, you know, the person who distributes the aid to you rather than saying, what is it that you actually need?

MARK LOWCOCK: I think it happens not out of malevolence. It happens mostly out of a thoughtlessness. The agencies doing the work can't do any work unless they can get money from somebody. So they need to have a negotiation with their with their funders. But the problem is that ultimately, it's not the funders who are the most important group. It's the people who we're all trying to help. And there are ways to tackle that problem. I suggested creating a an independent commission whose job would be in every crisis to go and ask people what help you want, and then to report back on whether the agencies were giving people the help they said they wanted. And if you do that, you subtly tilt the dialogue in the playing field.

MG: There's a political dimension to that work that you've been doing as the humanitarian coordinator for the United Nations. You can say certain things, but you have to bite your tongue, I'm sure, on other things. Is there something that was. Incredibly frustrating for you that you wish you could have spoken out more publicly about when you were in that role?

MARK LOWCOCK: I think I developed a reputation for speaking out quite a lot and I certainly annoyed the Russians a lot in the middle of 2019 where I repeatedly said in the Security Council, you know, it's obvious to me you are deliberately bombing hospitals and clinics and the UN has set up a information system. So we were telling all the participants belligerents where the hospitals and clinics were and the idea was they would use that information to comply with their legal obligations, not to attack those places. And in fact, the Russians got to the point where they were using the information for the opposite of the intended purpose. And I call that out. And likewise, towards the end of my tenure, when I came to the conclusion that the government of Prime Minister Abiy Ahmed in Ethiopia was deliberately trying with the President of Eritrea, Isaias Afwerki, to create a famine in Tigray. I deliberately call the House, but you're right, there's always a balancing act because you know, if the people in control of these places, if they get annoyed enough at what you're saying, I have a tendency to throw you out. And in fact lots of UN staff were thrown out of Ethiopia and I wasn't surprised at that because I knew that what I was saying would be something that annoyed some of the leaders. And you just have to weigh up all the issues, make your best judgement, and do ultimately what you think is right. And sometimes people criticise you, sometimes that other people think you've done the right thing, but you just have to try and do your best in the complexity of this each set of circumstances.

MG: How confident are you that the humanitarian aid system is? Is prepared to deal with what the world will face in the next decade or two. The news seems relentlessly bad in many corners of the world, and it's easy to to, you know, have your shoulders slump and your head to go down. Are you confident that the system that you worked in will be ready for?

MARK LOWCOCK: Well, there's a huge paradox because, you know, as a whole, my professional career, I see life improving a lot for the majority of people in these very vulnerable countries. But the the minority that sort of less than 10% of the world's population in about 30 countries haven't seen that improvement at all. And unfortunately, the plight of those people has been getting worse over the last five or eight years. And that's because the causes conflict, climate change coverage of the diseases have not been addressed at all. What's been addressed is the symptoms people fleeing war or hunger in communities or needs for clean water to be provided for people who've become refugees. If you only deal with the symptoms of something and not its causes, you shouldn't be surprised if they get worse. And I'm afraid that at the moment, because one of the things that's being produced by the Ukraine war, in particular, Putin essentially taking off the table food for 400 million people, which is sitting in Ukraine's grain silos, creating a global food crisis. I'm afraid in the short, medium term, things look very difficult and bleak. What I always try to hold on to is that I've had lots of experience over a longer period where things have got better. So, you know. It all depends on what people do. It all depends on how nations work together, whether the will to tackle these kind of shared problems which spread and affect all of us if they're not tackled where they start, if that can be mustered again in the way it was most effectively between about 1990 and 2015. We can get back to that era. Let's go for lots of improvement. Otherwise, dark days are ahead.

MG: Do you see any any indication that that's happening?

MARK LOWCOCK: Well, not at the moment. I mean, we're in a bleak, frustrating period. But it is also the case that no one really forecast in the 1960s, really up to 1990, that they would be this transformational progress. I quote in my book, The first sentence of a book by Paul Erlich called The Population Bomb, which is published in 1968. And his first sentence says, in the next 30, 40 years, there will be mass famines all over the world, and the country of England will no longer exist because its population are being consumed by hunger. And that of course proved to be completely wrong. So the do mongers aren't always right, but whether they're right or wrong depend on what we all do. And that's why I'm spending my time now and doing jobs now to advocate for getting back onto a positive trajectory for the sake of the people caught up in these crises, but ultimately for all the rest of our sakes, too.

MG: It's a powerful book and I'm glad to talk to you about it. Mark, thank you very much.

MARK LOWCOCK: Thank you.

MG: Mark Lowcock, new book is called Relief Chief A Manifesto for Saving Lives in Dire Times. Well, coming up after your regional update, two climbers who were told they had no business being on Mount Everest. They've not just proved the doubters wrong, but they are inspiring others to follow their dreams. What life is like at the top of the world when you're told not to go there? I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We're back in 90 seconds. Stay with us.

Why two climbers ignored their parents and climbed the tallest mountain in the world

Guests: Lhakpa Sherpa, James Kagambi

MG: Hi. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Wind blowing]

MG: Lhakpa Sherpa. Recorded that sound up in the clouds at the top of Mount Everest. Luke Bishop as a climber from Nepal. And last month she made history when she scaled the world's tallest mountain for the 10th time. She's the first woman to do so. Lhakpa Sherpa joins us from Katmandu, Nepal, Lhakpa Sherpa. Hello.

LHAKPA SHERPA: Hello, how are you? And I must say congratulations.

MG: Congratulations. What was that like?

LHAKPA SHERPA: Yeah, it was very exciting because it's top of the mountain, Everest. You know, every year, changing the dynamics of mountains looks really different. Looking every year.

MG: What did it look like? What does it look like from up there?

LHAKPA SHERPA: That is really look like a [unintelligible] solid 8000 metres sea below me. You know, we walking look like really fun and I have a bit exciting, you know, look like really very different kind of experience. Yes.

MG: Is it less exciting, the fact that you've gone up ten times? I mean, do you feel different about being up there on the 10th time than you would on the first or the second or the third time?

LHAKPA SHERPA: Yeah. You know, I been in [unintelligible] site in China and I've been in Nepal site this year. You know, we must have a fight, you know? Very typical ways that the region would feel look like a game, you know, so excited. Wow. We reached the summit. We worked so hard all night, you know? I know we're thinking about right away. We need to go back, you know, assembly back. Right the way we so tired all night is walking, climbing 8000 metres just did some big if you call it, you know not through thinking about right the way we summit take your picture, you know right away say oh my God, we need to go return back is simply, you know, that is we thinking about it.

MG: So you're not there for very long.

LHAKPA SHERPA: No. So we cannot. We need to- we have so much small oxygen we carry. We maybe ten minute, 20 minutes. We stay there, take your picture and we need to write the way we go because we sit too much there, you know, oxygen.

MG: You grew up in the shadow of this mountain. What was it about? Why did you want to climb? What was it about climbing that was so interesting to you?

LHAKPA SHERPA: Oh, you know, my dad, my uncles, my family members, Sherpas, you know, this is all the jobs. You know, they work in the mountain. And I look like a Sherpa. I see this mountain all the time. My childhood life, you know, I see this mountain and all my family, my dad and uncle. So want to go climbing with the tourists, you know? I'm so excited. I'm a woman, but I don't have opportunity going. My mom would not give a chance because I can not go, I'm woman and I must work in home and I'm to be hanging out with tomboys, you know, look like hanging out the boy, my cousin. And I like hiking up and I see beautiful nature around for me, you know, I cannot see these things home. We not have a phone, we not have a television, but we see this beautiful nature my eye. You know, I love outdoor and I'm so close to this mountain.

MG: But as you mentioned, because you're a woman, your mother said that you should you should stay at home, that you should be at home instead.

LHAKPA SHERPA: Yes, I [unintelligible] role. Yes, I not listen, my mom's mount. I'm little bit tough girls. I know. I broke the [unintelligible], you know.

MG: What did your parents say when you broke the rules and decided that you were going to go would become a climber?

LHAKPA SHERPA: My mom says the many daughters, four brothers, you know, and also seven, seven daughters. And my dad said, okay, let go this girl. She looks strong. Because I'm a little tall woman, taller the older sister, everybody. You know, I looks almost my brother size. I'm very strong. I show my dad, I carry heavy things, you know, and my dad says, okay, let go. You know, this is my dad. This is my hero. I believe my dad. He all the time say I did something good. Those are made are not bad things, but he all the time say, Yes, you did a good job. My mom's also a good mom. So you know but she she keep the culture very tight, you know.

MG: What is the mountain mean to you said before that the mountain is is like your doctor. What do you mean by that?

LHAKPA SHERPA: Yes, I think the mountains heal me, you know, all the my hurt things, mountain make me happy. Mountains make me healed all.

MG: You live now far away from the mountains you live in. In Hartford, Connecticut, in the United States.

LHAKPA SHERPA: Yes. Yes. I work really, really hard and I feel that just work for me kill me, you know. And also so many things happen in that mountain. I go in mountain, I come in Himalaya, in Nepal and still I see that the nature for me, riding with this mountain air. Cool air makes me my best, you know. That make me so, make me happy, everything heal for me.

MG: What is the work that you do in in Hartford?

LHAKPA SHERPA: Six year I work in a house clean, [unintelligible]almost five, six, seven years. I work in Whole Food.

MG: At Whole Foods and at house cleaning.

LHAKPA SHERPA: Yes.

MG: So you've climbed Mount Everest ten times. And I think people might think that that would be your full time job. But you don't have sponsors. This last trip that you you did was through through crowdfunding. Are you surprised?

LHAKPA SHERPA: Yeah. Yeah, I have a go funds. I cannot summon without it. There are no people doing it for me, you know, I cannot make it, you know, I must pay rent, you know, very typical. I'm also I summit Mt. Everest, my 10th summit in top of the world. I'm really thinking about it who support me, that people to make me ten summit you know.

MG: Do you see yourself as an inspiration for other women and young girls who might be told that they can't do the things that they want to do?

LHAKPA SHERPA: Oh, of course, I never know been in school my life. I come from very, very remote, barely no school, no doctor. Of course, many children now is educated, you know, of course, everybody there, 100%. Of course, you must choose yourself. Okay. I want a doctor. You must feel. But Mom, sometimes Mom, dad is one [unintelligible] their children. But that is a Mom, dad dreams. You know my Mom maybe say, oh, you my daughter I wanted housewife, but my mom's a dream. But I had a different kind of dream. I follow of my dreams. Slowly, slowly. Now but not give up. I reach in ten, 10 times and top of the wall. You know.

MG: Here the definition, though, of not giving up. I mean, if you've climbed Mount Everest nine, ten times, that's that's the definition of not giving up.

LHAKPA SHERPA: Yeah, not giving up. Life is very difficult, you know, not easy. Of course not give up. Yes. Must go passion. Keep going in what you want, you know, keep trying.

MG: So what happens next for you? You've done this ten times. This is the top of the world. What are you going to do next?

LHAKPA SHERPA: I love one teach. People who want to climbing like me, one shot. I had a very it's really not a very [unintelligible] me. I have everything good expert. I have a good Sherpa. I have a good connexion. And my family member all summit Everest. You know, I have a good- somebody want to go climbing. I love guide people you know I love guide people, Himalayas, any 7000 mountains. You know Mt. Everest, any mountain, hiking, taking. I love guide not just my- I love I want to share my experience other people all the young generation who want to climb like me.

MG: Is there another mountain that you want to climb or will you climb Mount Everest in the 11th time?

LHAKPA SHERPA: Yes. No, I had a some sponsors. Sure. I want to go [unintelligible]. And also, you know, I likes going some mountains sure, but very difficult right now to found these sponsored.

MG: So K2 might be a mountain that you would climb.

LHAKPA SHERPA: Yes. This is my one bucket list. Yes.

MG: It's amazing that somebody who has climbed Mount Everest ten times still has a bucket list.

LHAKPA SHERPA: Yes. I've been to K2 2010 and I reach in Camp four and almost I'm summit in a way that is. So come in bed and I wake and come to one night. Still weather start the bed, you know, you return back. And I feel it's still my dream to still not give up. You know, I feel one day I will come back, you know, I'll summit this mountain. I feel that, you know, still I had a- still have of my dreams, it's clicking my mind is still no go away.

MG: You're amazing. I'm really, really in awe of what you have accomplished. And if you want to get up K2, I'm sure you'll be the person to be able to get up there. Lhakpa, it's great to speak with you. Thank you very much. And congratulations again.

LHAKPA SHERPA: Thank you. Thank you, sir. And nice talking with you and Namaste. And thanks so much for having me here. Thanks.

MG: Keep climbing. And thank you very much. And goodbye.

LHAKPA SHERPA: Yeah, bye bye.

MG: Like my Sherpa. The first woman to summit Mount Everest ten times. She owns the guiding business. Clouds K Climbing and she is incredible. James Kagambi also made history on Everest. He's an instructor at the National Outdoor Leadership School based in Lander, Wyoming. He owns K.G. Mountain Expeditions in central Kenya. He was part of Full Circle, which last month became the first all black climbing team to summit Mount Everest. He's also the first black Kenyan to do so. And as you can hear, it was an exhilarating experience to reach base camp after his six week journey.

SOUNDCLIP

Good Morning America. I'm sure most of you are sleeping. I'm broadcasting from Everest base camp courtesy of full cyclone [unintelligible] expidition, believe me or not, it is happening. This is K.G.

MG: James and he joins us from Narrow Morrow, Kenya. James, hello.

JAMES KAGAMBI: Hi, how are you? And thanks for having me.

MG: That's an amazing video. You sound so excited.

JAMES KAGAMBI: I was. I was.

MG: What was going tell us what was going through your mind when you got to the base camp? What were you thinking?

JAMES KAGAMBI: When I got to base camp definitely, you know, had not been there before. And I was thinking, what am I doing? Will I make it? How hard is it? But when I got there I just realised that it's a glacier like in the, in the other. And I've been through many, many mountains that have up bridges. And I was ready for it. And I just wanted to keep myself busy. Every time I get new, I just get this craziness and the happiness that I always want to show. You know.

MG: It's a glacier like any other. It's Mount Everest.

JAMES KAGAMBI: It is Mt. Everest, but that glacier at the base to me seemed just like any other glacier just to tell you it.

MG: Okay, so what was it like when you finally got to the summit? Describe what you saw.

JAMES KAGAMBI: Well, I wasn't expecting what I found because in my mind I had planned this thing that I would get there. I would have a summit, maybe not myself, but at least five people, the ones I could see in front of me, I planned to like kneel down. Thank God, thank my supporter. But then when I got there, so many people are just sitting up there and the first thing I did is I looked around, I was like, Am I there? I can't believe it. I expected to be told that it's farther than that, that I think I had prepared myself. And so I didn't expect to be right there. But anyway, and then right on, as I say that. And there's so people just basking and having fun, taking a lot of photos, it dawned on me that I still have to go back down. And that's what my club just started peaking. Down, down, down, down.

MG: So immediately you thought, Well, I'm here, but now I have to get out.

JAMES KAGAMBI: Yes. And I have to put in my eight cents to make sure that I'm going down civilly. I know what mountains can do. I've been up in bad weather. It was very blue. It was bright. The sun was shining. You couldn't convince anybody that the weather could turn out. But I knew it can.

MG: Tell me about how you started climbing. What was your entry point to this?

JAMES KAGAMBI: Long time ago. Well, first thing is, in 1973, I remember my dad getting me out of bed point at Mount Kenya and I saw fireworks. Somebody was doing fireworks there to to commemorate ten years of Kenyan independence. And I looked at it, I was only 13 years old. And I was like, I should do that one day. I even didn't know what I was thinking about. And down the line in 1983, that was the first time I went on Mount Kenya. I hated that mountain. I had a headache. I wasn't feeling well. I couldn't eat because I was ill prepared. But when I had snow on my way down, when I got to the top, I just loved it. And that's what took me back to the mountain.

MG: Okay. Tell me about touching snow for the first time. What was that like?

JAMES KAGAMBI: Well, I when I saw you before I really stepped on the air, was sceptical. I didn't know how it would react. And first fasting. When I put my foot on his hearing, that sounded very grating and something I've never had before. And the next thing I was down, sitting on it, touching it, and getting so close to it. And then when they get on got on top, I could slide all the way down and I didn't know how dangerous it was to be sliding on snow. Fortunately, the gradient wasn't that steep. So I got down. But I loved.

MG: And it changed your life.

JAMES KAGAMBI: It did. And even now people know people go to the mountains, know as soon as I touch snow, my my emotions change. I am the happiest person. I just up jumping up and down, dancing. If you want to see me at my best, put me on snow.

MG: You quit your job as a schoolteacher and pursued this full time. Tell me about that decision and why you made. That's a big decision to make.

JAMES KAGAMBI: I come from a family of teachers, and then I was a teacher. But when I got on the mountain and then met the National Leadership School on the mountain because they would see me go up the mountain just for physique. And they were interested in this puzzle. They wanted me. And when they found me, they say, Can you teach for us? Can you go up the mountain and see what you can do? And as soon as I got into mountaineering with them, I knew that I was hooked. One. I liked travelling not only to the mountains. I like going for hikes in the hills, you know, taking the bus and going to a park and back. And so I meet those who do take me to those places without me paying for it. So that's what took me away. And also the joy I got. My family was not happy. My dad and mom, you know, kept saying, no, they're sending me people. You cannot quit teaching. And eventually I said, you know, this is my life and this is where I am.

MG: What does it give you? I mean, your family said, no, you have a whole life that's around you and then you step aside to do this thing. What does climbing the mountain give you?

JAMES KAGAMBI: It gives me a lot of challenge, a lot of hope. It gives me a lot of learning. I especially when I'm teaching, I feel so good when I see people, I get something out of mountaineering. People like young kids, like the ones I teach in Wyoming, the island that you can see the growth within a month. That is so rewarding to me. I also find that it allows me to be myself. When I go out in the nature, that's when I feel that I can do anything I want. I can share, anything I can jump up and down. Am not shy to do anything. It just gives me this energy. And I believe that's why at my age, I can still run around.

MG: At your age, you're 62 years old.

JAMES KAGAMBI: Yes.

MG: Tell me about full circle. You joined this. This is, as I said, the first black climbing team to summit Mount Everest. How did you get involved with them?

JAMES KAGAMBI: The person who started full circle is somebody I've worked with here in Kenya. I've worked with him in states I've worked in for three years in Patagonia, Chile, and, you know, in mountaineering. We climbed Denali together in 2013. I actually at that time I led the first African American team to Mount McKinley in 2013. I was the only Kenyan but still one of the leaders, and he was there also on another team. And around there he started thinking about a black team to Everest, and I started thinking about it, but we never shared. And then he took those steps, I thought further and eventually came up with something. And he is the one who started full circle. And two years ago he started putting together a team and he was like, I'm taking K.G. because I know what he can bring to the team. I was taken to the team because, one, I have experienced enough, you know, high mountains, you know, long expeditions. I am like motivating people, educating people, helping others and being very supportive.

MG: Did you have I mean, age is nothing but a number, but did you have any concerns about climbing Everest at your age?

JAMES KAGAMBI: Not well. The truth is, Everest was at my land for many years. But 15 years ago, when the first black person summit, [unintelligible]I think it was 2003, the first black person from Africa summit. I did. I felt like, okay, my goal, somebody has taken it. I don't need to go. And that time I see I'm getting old and even when I was approached this time that's the first thing I thought. But I was like, I'm being so much more in the outdoors, you know, what is Everest is just an extension of the number of days and eventually I feel that it should not be a gap to make me not do it and always wanted to do.

MG: Absolutely. What does it mean for you to be part of this team, to be part of the first all-Black climbing team to hit the top?

JAMES KAGAMBI: It means a lot right from the beginning. Another reason why I don't think is the reasons they had, because the reasons we went up was, one, to send that other people, especially of colour into mountaineering, to bring that, to show people that people who are they first divide by age, gender, colour, geographical location, economical classes that they can also achieve their dreams if they keep following it. And for Kenya, when I was asked to join, I knew that I had a point to put across. In Kenya, mountaineering is not a sport. And also, I would like to encourage the government to introduce outdoor education into our school system.

MG: And have you been able to make those changes? I mean, I would assume that you return to Kenya after summiting Mount Everest as part of this team as some sort of national hero.

JAMES KAGAMBI: I was I had in fact, I would say that I got a lot of support from the local people. People who are not in the government and all that. The government so far has not shown anything. But I was amazed even by the time I was at Everest base camp, the number of people reached out to me who wrote me, who got into my Instagram, go to Facebook. I knew that I have achieved most of my goals because those are the people who were making these things happen at the end of the day.

MG: I mean, we heard La Paz Sherpa there talk about how in some ways the mountain is her doctor. And she talked about, you know, she didn't have a television when she grew up, that the television was the outdoors and what she saw. What do you want people to think about in terms of the power of the outdoor world? This is something that you've been immersed in for for years and years now.

JAMES KAGAMBI: Yes. And I love teaching that and introducing people. And even whenever I do presentation as people, if you cannot climb a mountain, go out, take a walk in the forest, go to the next hill you you have. And when you do that, I even don't need to tell you what you get out of it. But eventually you come to realise how that fresh air, what it does to you, you are mind getting away from the daily life, even if you are on it for a few hours, you find that I walk away from what we are used to. Actually, it's very helpful as part of healing as a [unintelligible].

MG: And so what's next? I can't imagine at 62 that you are anywhere near retirement that having hit this summit, that that's it for you. What next is on your horizon?

JAMES KAGAMBI: I, I definitely love mountains and I like the dream mountains over and over. I've done Mount Kenya over 200 times. Klimanjaro I have climbed over 150 times.

MG: 150 times. Kilimanjaro?

JAMES KAGAMBI: Oh, yeah. Well, and I'll continue guiding on them. But what I can say, they are mountains. I have seen like one time I saw the Matterhorn in Switzerland when I was climbing the ice and I saw that one time I'll have to climb that. So that's still something I would like to do. Now that I have climbed four of the seven summits, I think if I got sponsors, that's where I would go. I would like to climb the next the last two, three of the seven summits.

MG: You're an inspiration and it's a real pleasure to talk to you as well. Keep climbing and thank you very much.

JAMES KAGAMBI: Thank you.

MG: James Kagabi, part of the first all-Black climbing team and he was the first black Kenyan to summit Mount Everest. One feels somewhat inadequate or perhaps kind of lazy after you have conversations like that. Happy Monday. That's The Current for this Monday. Coming up next on CBC Radio One it's q, singer songwriter Jeff Tweedy of Wilco will be speaking to Tom Power. Tom is a huge Wilco fan. I have a sense this will be a great conversation. That's coming up in just a moment on CBC Radio. We'll leave you this morning with a different kind of explorer, someone who is undertaking a more urban feat. Meet Winnipeg's Bill Fugler. He is one of the few people who call themselves every single Streeters, and their numbers have actually multiplied over the course of the pandemic. Thousands of urban explorers taking up the quest to get there, know their cities better, one street at a time. They're essentially travelling all of the streets in their city. Seven years, 20 pounds and six pairs of running shoes later, Bill is beginning his 7000 plus kilometre mission to walk every single residential street in his city for the second time, perhaps taking inspiration from the Mountaineers that we just heard from. We caught up with him as he walked through parts of the north end of Winnipeg. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Stay active and we'll talk to you tomorrow.

SOUNDCLIP

I started walking new streets because I was getting bored of the old streets and I discovered how wonderful it was. I can be stressed about work or stressed about finances or something, and I will go for a walk. And at a certain point I'll notice that I am breathing better, that I'm standing more upright. I'll just be smiling. I lived in Japan for a while and people have very tiny yards and they do incredible things with their tiny yards. Winnipeg is kind of like this as well. People like we're walking by a house right now festooned with blue bomber memorabilia, but people do incredibly strange things. I've seen mannequins buried upside down so that just their legs are jutting from their garden. I've seen the most lifelike pair of zombies. They were statues, of course, but they were climbing over a fence. And I thought this would give somebody a heart attack. Okay. I try to greet people when I run into them because I don't want them to be nervous. When I was first walking, I was going into rougher sections of town and people would actually approach me. But almost all who say they're inviting me to a party. And I realised quickly that I don't need to worry as much as I thought I did. So we'll go up a block and then down again. It's very easy to get lost. Particularly walking at night when it's cold. The newer developments don't have straight streets, so they have these windy, curvy, crazy streets and it's freezing cold and you're walking and you pull your phone out and your phone's dead. So you have no idea where you parked your car. And that is utterly terrifying. I mean, you're safe because at any moment you can go knock on somebody's door and say, hi, I'm freezing to death. But the very act of finding your car without your phone is incredibly difficult because I walk six kilometres or I try to like the basis six. But we've had so much change in Winnipeg. I started the last walk with an old Sherlock map, which is the map company at the sea has had forever. And I would use a sharpie and mark off every single street as I walked it. And this year I bought the 23rd edition. The last one was the 10th edition. I bought the 23rd edition. So it's now got all these new streets that I've never walk that I'm going to have to go walk now. And I've started again. And it's very much like being a tourist, you know, and seeing things with brand new eyes and seeing things for the first time.

Monday 13 June, 2022 Full Transcript

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