How Ukrainians are coping with the violence — and casualties — in their country

Guests: Daniel Bilak, Myron Spolsky

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MG: Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky addressed his nation on television today as Russian troops moved into the outskirts of Kiev and there were reports of gunfire in the government quarters of the capital. The Ukrainian president compared the Russian attack to Nazi Germany's assault on the city in 1941. He said sanctions were not working, and he accused the world's most powerful forces of watching from afar, while Ukrainians defended their state alone. Fighting is underway not just near the eastern border, but all over the country. Over 100 Ukrainians died on the first day of the conflict. The U.N. estimates that 100000 people have fled their homes, and it's expecting as many as five million refugees as this conflict continues. Daniel Bilak is a lawyer who studied in Canada and has been in Ukraine for 31 years. He lives just outside of Kiev, near the main airport. Daniel, good morning.

DANIEL BILAK: Hello, there.

MG: Tell me what life is like for you in Kiev right now.

DANIEL BILAK: Well, I live outside the city, just outside the city, near the main airport with my family. We're sheltering in place. We go down to the basement when we hear the sirens and and the aircraft going over the house, and then we can generally hear the explosions. When they when they happened in and around the city.

MG: What is that like? I mean, start with the air raid sirens to hear those.

DANIEL BILAK: Well, you know, it's it's clearly not something Canadians are used to or most people are used to. You know, I think the first time when we were woken up on Thursday morning at 5:10 with the you hear these very loud booms and explosions. It was, you know, as a wake up call in every sense of the word. You know you, you don't get used to it after that, but you know you, you come to expect it and you recognise it for what it is after that.

MG: How close are the explosions to you and the shelling?

DANIEL BILAK: It all depends in Kiev, not that close, but when the ones near the airport probably within, you know, seven eight kilometres.

MG: And you know, somebody whose building was hit in that shelling.

DANIEL BILAK: I was patrolling with our neighbourhood patrol groups this morning, 4:30 in the morning, and we saw a rocket that was taken down by the Ukrainian Defence Forces. And it was quite quite a big explosion. And then I found out later that part of the rocket when it exploded, landed on a an apartment dwelling where some of my children's classmates live. And so thank God they were OK. But you have 150 people now looking for a place to sleep tonight.

MG: How old are your children?

DANIEL BILAK: 10.

MG: How are you explaining what's happening to your children?

DANIEL BILAK: Well, actually, the children are doing more of the explaining to me because they're in chats on with their classmates and they follow the news and things like that. But, you know, they have questions and we have open discussions with them and you know, they need to understand the reality in which in which they live as well.

MG: How worried are you about them? I mean, they're 10 years old and living through this.

DANIEL BILAK: Well, you know, at this stage, we just want to get through this. We will have to my wife as a has responsibilities here that have kept by and large have kept us here. But this is also my home. I've been here almost 30 years and you know, we didn't really have any place else to go. So we're we're we're going to stick it out and see what happens.

MG: So you won't leaving the city.

DANIEL BILAK: Well, I will. I have. It's not safe to leave the city right now. And I think, you know, we have plans, we have various options and we will see what what transpires over the next few days. But you know, it's very difficult. And for me, morally, I've been, you know, basically in Ukraine for for 30 years and twice chief of staff to the Minister of Justice. Here I was twice I was an adviser to two prime ministers. And this was the land of opportunity. This was building nation, building a young democracy, vibrant, dynamic and, you know, integrating into Europe and Ukraine taking its rightful place amongst the European family of nations. And what's really difficult for me isn't so much that, you know, Putin has done this because this is true to form for the Russians. They don't offer any - their own people, let alone any people. They conquer anything other than death, despair, decay and devastation. What bothers me more than anything else is that, you know, we were on, we're doing this alone. And while we're very, very grateful to Canada and the United States and in other countries for their their support and in many cases, very significant material support. You know, if Canada eighty years ago had been its response to Adolf Hitler had been, you know, we're going to we're going to hit you with some sanctions, the post-Second World War period in which we all grew up would have been very, very different, I think. And you know, we're all alone in this, and there's a real sense here that the West is prepared to fight Putin down to the last Ukrainian. And somehow, you know, our democracy is not good enough to try to preserve. So there are sort of categories of democracy. And President Biden, in his speech the other night on sanctions, which was. It's quite robust, and I'll spend half of it talking about how they're going to reinforce their Naito allies and the East, which which is great for them, but they're not really under attack right now. And so, you know, we could have I would have thought the West could have at least declared a no fly zone. For some reason, that was OK for Syria and Iraq. But for a European democracy, it's somehow not, not good enough. Basically, everybody's afraid of Putin, everybody but the Ukrainians.

MG: And so I mean, given your close ties with this country, what would you want people in Canada to know about about what you're in the midst of right now, feeling, as you said, isolated and abandoned and as though you're on your own.

DANIEL BILAK: Never take your food freedom for granted. I think that we have we've had- my generation, I'm a I'm a boomer. You know, ours was probably the first generation that grew up without having to go to war and probably over 150 years. And people tend to look at their freedom in Canada with a sense of entitlement. And that's when somebody there's always the danger that somebody will come and take it away. You have to fight for your freedom and those values and principles of liberal democracy that we were taught in school and in all of our our institutions in Canada. You know, at some at some point you have to decide if they're worth fighting and dying for it. And I don't sense that at all. Amongst people, there's nothing where it. We'll find a way, you know? Well, well, well. And Putin knows he can buy. You can buy his way out of almost any, any any confrontation. He's not worried about these sanctions. He just couldn't care less.

MG: Take care of yourself. It's a really, really precarious situation. And I know, as you say, that you are there and you're going to stay as long as you can. And your kids are in some ways because they're plugged in kind of informing you and what's going on. But it is really, really a lot for everybody. Bye. Take care of yourself and be safe.

DANIEL BILAK: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me on your show.

MG: I appreciate you being here. Be well.

DANIEL BILAK: Bye now.

MG: Daniel Bilak lives in Kiev. Myron Spolsky also lives in Kiev. He was born in Canada but moved to Ukraine in the 1980s and runs a youth youth scouting organisation, PLAST. Myron, hello to you!

MYRON SPOLSKY: Hi, how are you?

MG: I'm OK. How are you?

MYRON SPOLSKY: Yeah, well, fine under the circumstances, I guess we're fine, you know?

MG: Where are you right now?

MYRON SPOLSKY: I'm in Central Cave near the Golden Gate.

MG: And you've pulled over. You were driving around. I know. Tell me what you're trying to take care of now as this situation unfolds.

MYRON SPOLSKY: Well, I still have an active business, I'm also involved in community life, I have the International Federation of Ukrainian Scouts Plus two is called here. So we have a lot of work going on to get assistance to those that are coming to the front humanitarian aid, medical aid, those things and and doing my business work as well along with everything. Plus we have prepared for the likely eventuality that we're going to go somewhere, leave Kiev, because the Russians have got our doorstep, so we've just been handing out the food that's in our fridge and that and some of our semi valuables putting them in safekeeping, those kinds of things. But that's basically it. And we're ready to leave, literally to, you know, we hear there's a problem. We're going to get in the car and go. We're all packed and ready.

MG: What is life like in the city right now? How would you describe that?

MYRON SPOLSKY: It's quiet. A lot of people have left obviously, it's hard to judge how many the older people that don't have anywhere to go have no family anywhere else or or can't get there are staying. The younger, brighter ones have left, unfortunately, and they're not coming back if the Russians take over. They're leaving for other countries, they're leaving for western Ukraine, you know, and that's where it's going to happen. So we're going to have an empty city in the in the, you know, unfortunate situation we're in right now. So but otherwise the city is is closed. I would say it's sort of, you know, restaurants, small stores are closed. Banks, most of the banks today are closed already. The supermarkets are open to those kinds of things.

MG: Have you heard the air raid sirens?

MYRON SPOLSKY: We have live on the outskirts of the city, so we don't hear them very clearly. And frankly, after a day of handling things, we're fairly tired. We of pass out quite well and we sleep tough. If if we're to be warned, our cat jumps all over us that something is happening in the middle. And that's how we woke up yesterday morning to to the first explosions in the city was a cat jumping all over us.

MG: What is it like to be in this city in this moment for you?

MYRON SPOLSKY: So, you know, let me make a short answer long, but iit's a situation where, you know, I've moved here 35 years ago from Canada, which in some ways is a Ukrainian homeland, because Ukrainian culture developed in Canada and Ukraine is the homeland of a long standing culture whose cultures are arranged back 7000 years. And you see it everywhere from the burial mounds, natural burial mounds that they have to the old monasteries that are 50 years old to churches that are over a thousand years old to a population that knows or understands its place in history, but isn't, you know, arrogant about it and that want democracy. And I'm very saddened by what I've seen because I've watched this country do to help from a Soviet republic to post-Soviet to becoming a democratic republic. I watch the school system go from being a Soviet to please don't ask questions, sit neatly and raise your hand, you know, properly in the proper direction to aschool system, which becoming very much like ours is actually very based on the Canadian system where kids are taught to think and to question and to be like kids, you know? And I'm sad that if the Russians take over that, tI'll be destroyed.

MG: And is that what you worry about that that everything that you talked about, that that that itself is under threat right now in this moment?

MYRON SPOLSKY: I think that's a very important underpinning in this country since sets the future. It allows first [unintelliglbe] in 2004 to happen because the first batch of university students who are trained within this new system hit the streets. The one in 2014 was the same thing. It was students that started. And we already have an adult population post student population that supported them and the rest of the population that is outraged by police brutality. And I think we're going to lose that and it's going to take a long time to develop that again. And Europe will lose a potentially very good partner. In Russia, you know, you can be walking in the street and you'll be asked for your passport by the police. If the police ask me for a passport I'd say, What are you crazy? What are you do? Prove it. You know, and the police will never try to do that until there's real real proof. You know, racism and anti-Semitism are deemed not correct forms of behaviour here. All those things that we expect in the West.

MG: What will it take for you to leave the city?

MYRON SPOLSKY: I will have to leave because any of us who are involved in community activities would probably first on the list, be arrested. So those of us who are active in the scouting organisation of the leadership will have to leave quickly if the Russians take over.

MG: And so you talked about putting valuables into safekeeping and things like that. I mean, what an extraordinary thing to have to go through.

MYRON SPOLSKY: Yes. Yes, it's it's. Not sure how to say it. It's just awful.

MG: Where will you go? The president has said that men between the ages of 18 and 60 are not allowed to leave the country. So where would you go?

MYRON SPOLSKY: Oh, I'm not a Ukrainian citizen so I can leave, but I'm over 60, so I'm going into western Ukraine. I have family that I'm close to my. My first cousins are there and so I got to go. We've got an apartment that's been set for us and we're going there.

MG: Just before I let you go. What do you want Canadians to know about what you're in the midst of right now?

MYRON SPOLSKY: We. Well, first of all, we all appreciate that my first Homelands has provided so much support to to Ukraine to a country from which so many Canadians have originated. We want to thank all Canadians for supporting us. We want them to understand how much importance it means to have a Canadian educational system applied there. A Canadian medical system in part being applied here and the assistance being provided. And we just want to thank you for thinking of us.

MG: Take care of yourself. It's a harrowing situation and I wish you the very best. But stay safe.

MYRON SPOLSKY: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for calling me.

MG: Bye bye. Myron Spolsky lives in Kiev here in Canada. All that Ukrainian Canadians can do is watch and worry. Many of them have loved ones in harm's way, and communications have been spotty. Getting a call or a text through to a family member in Ukraine is not always a sure thing. And all of that is leaving a lot of people in this country feeling helpless.

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VOICE 1: My name is Lily Hodienko. I'm first generation here. I was born here. My parents came as young children and now I'm working in a Ukrainian every day K to eight school. We had a staff meeting in the morning before we did a little prayer. We prayed for Ukraine. We prayed for the Ukrainians here and for our students. There's not a single soul in here that doesn't have somebody in Ukraine. And today, actually, we're all dressed in in blue and yellow in support of Ukraine.

VOICE 2: My name is Petro Gollisk. I leave my family like it's my mom and my wife's whole family. If I would drink a coffee in the morning, I would explode, actually, because I can sit in one place. I'm nervous from the morning. I can. I can put myself together. I'm sorry, but it's true.

VOICE 3: My name is Lydia Bolieczko and I'm a second generation Ukrainian Canadian. My grandparents, all four of them are from different parts of Ukraine. It was very emotional to watch. You can't tear your eyes away, and quite frankly, you shouldn't. My mother's cousin's nephew, Stefan. He is an attorney. Who is he? He's a young boy. I think he's under 10 years old. He is currently in a bunker hiding with his cats. So just seeing these images and hearing these stories. It's very overwhelming. And you just feel helpless being here in Canada and not knowing what to do or how you can help.

VOICE 4: Lots of my friend's loss of my family members, lots of people make themselves blown carers. They just dig the hole in the ground and try to hide there. My wife's sister, she has two kids and that gets so upright. They cry. They crying from the morning, because they they can't handle it, as kids. They can't handle emotionally. I would like to go back to Ukraine and help them, and I can't help them right now. But I do everything possible what I can do from here.

VOICE 5: My family, who lives in [unitelligible] of they've got a cottage that's outside the city a little bit. So they've actually gone out there for the city of [unintelligible] is now being inundated with people trying to flee Kiev. They were saying that you can't even get a rental room. You can't get a place to stay right now. It's just simply packed with people. People are trying to go where it's safe.

VOICE 6: My grandparents fought hard to maintain their Ukrainian background, or my father's mother actually survived the Ukrainian famine back in 1932. And to this day, we speak, read and write Ukrainian. And it's important for us to preserve background and heritage and culture. And regardless of what's happening today, that won't change anything, we're going to continue to fight. Ukrainians are very proud people and Ukrainian Canadians are equally proud and support them.

VOICE 7: I feel gorgeous to be Ukrainian-Canadian.

MG: Your CBC news is next. And then.

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For now, this is like the first wave of people, and in few days and few weeks, I think we will have a real problem.

MG: As we've just heard, the buses and trains out of Ukraine are already full and more Ukrainians are leaving that country every hour in six minutes. The refugee crisis that is brewing right now in Europe. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. Stay with us.

Europe prepares for a Ukrainian refugee crisis

Guests: Loveday Morris, Irina Saghoyan, Felix Krawatzek

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, our series work in progress continues with a look at how the pandemic has changed, our expectations of where and how we work. But first, we follow the trail of Ukrainians streaming out of their country in search of somewhere safe.

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MG: That's the sound of a rolling suitcase being dragged along a two lane highway, the Ukrainian couple who owns the suitcases are named Dmitri in Ksenia. They are dressed in winter parkas, loaded down with backpacks and hauling the possessions they could carry. They fled Kiev late late last night as the bombing began, and they crossed into Hungary on foot.

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VOICE 1: And what is your plan? Do you have any plan?

VOICE 2: We have planned like we're going to go into Germany before that-.

But this is plan D.

MG: This is Plan D. The United Nations has estimated that 100000 Ukrainians have fled their homes and thousands of those are pouring into neighbouring countries. Humanitarian groups are already preparing for the influx. Kalina Czwarnog is a board member with the Uccellini Foundation. It's an NGO working with migrants, refugees and asylum seekers in Poland.

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We already have people fleeing from Ukraine to Poland, and we expect a lot more to come. People are talking even about millions of asylum seekers from Ukraine, which is more than we ever had in Poland, ever. So no NGOs have, you know, a capacity to really address this kind of scale, and we are still waiting for our government to really say what are their plans because we know that the government asked mayors to say how many people can be located and each of them, but they didn't share this info with us, so we don't know what to expect. It would be wonderful if some other countries from Western European Union would take some of those people. Fortunately, the winter is coming to an end, so that's good. But because the the flights are over, people have to go by train or by bus or by car or by foot. I already know that in Warsaw, the buses from Ukraine and trains from Ukraine are totally full, and I know that many people are trying to get out of the cities that are far away, like a thousand kilometres from our border and and they are struggling. But I think for now, this is like the first wave of people, and in few days and few weeks, I think we will have a real problem.

MG: Loveday Morris is the Berlin bureau chief with The Washington Post. She's been reporting on the border between Poland and Ukraine, and we've reached her near that border, Loveday. Good morning.

LOVEDAY MORRIS: Hi, good morning.

MG: Describe the situation where you are right now. What's it like?

LOVEDAY MORRIS: We've been down here for two days actually yesterday that were quite chaotic scenes that you crossed from Poland into the onto the Ukrainian side in the fact that there were huge tailbacks of traffic and people kind of getting out of their cars and just walking with bags, miles and about eight 10 miles to the border. A lot of people. It's really the same today, even longer queues of traffic people. Some people have been in their cars for more than 24 hours, actually sleeping overnight, barely moving, trying to get to border crossings to get out people going everywhere, really saying, you know, they're going to visit family in Poland or further afield. Just really uncertain about the situation and and frustrated about not being able to leave as well. The border is very slow.

MG: In the conversations that you've had with people, whether they're in their cars or you were reporting as well from the train station, what are people telling you about why they are leaving now?

LOVEDAY MORRIS: I mean, just for safety. Mostly. I mean, they're really uncertain about the situation and a lot of families at the moment, there are rules that the men can't leave. That's been the case today, for sure. So any man of fighting age, so anyone between 18 and 60 has to stay. Some kind of fighting age are frustrated about that. They want to leave with their families. They want to look after their families. And, you know, obviously they're worried about the security situation here. I mean, yeah, I mean, there's bombing and obviously in Kiev and other cities and people are afraid, you know?

MG: And are these people expecting that they will ever be able to go home again?

LOVEDAY MORRIS: A lot of people hope that this is going to be temporary. I mean, no one knows how long. And you know, some people are saying they're just hoping to get across the border and wait it out, see how the situation unfolds for a few days. Other people, you know. Say are not sure if they'll ever come back. Some younger people leaving say, you know, if if the worst comes to worst, they they don't want to live in Russia, you know, they can't envisage that to their futures. So really mixed. I mean, essentially, no one knows how long this uncertainty might go on for and and people have different thresholds about coming back also. So yeah, no one really knows when.

MG: What are the preparations that are being done within Poland, for example, along those borders for the crush of people trying to flee Ukraine?

LOVEDAY MORRIS: We were there a few days ago and at that stage things were pretty. But before the first sort of real assault the other night, things were really in their infancy from what I hear from the other side. It's a bit more organised now you've had and they put out mass shelters. There were already people sleeping in [unintelliglbe] holes from what I hear on the other side. So there are preparations being done both at a really local level and and a wider EU level.

MG: How do locals feel about what could happen in the coming days? And speaking with officials from some of those neighbouring countries, they were very worried about the scale of this refugee crisis.

LOVEDAY MORRIS: Again, no one really knows. But I think there is a feeling here that, I mean, certainly that's how- people were expecting a conflict, obviously, or some kind of conflict. And I think people thought it might start in the east and move very slowly. I think one thing that surprised a lot of people here is the speed with which Russian forces are moving and the fact that it's hit, you know, large areas of the country at once. I think people really weren't prepared for that. So that's caught everyone unaware. I don't think people in this part of west western Ukraine here really expect it to be that impacted. And a lot of people at this crossing, at this crossing, I'm at a coming from the local area and people kind of thought this was the safer part of Ukraine. So, you know, if people are even fleeing from here, you know, it makes you think about, yeah, the size and the impacts of the humanitarian crisis.

MG: Just in the scale of this and in terms of how quickly it's happened, is there a story that sticks out to you just that would would illustrate to people here how how intense this is and how fluid the situation is right now?

LOVEDAY MORRIS: And I was actually just talking to some Yemenis who were studying in Kiev, and they were also fleeing. And a lot of them, you know, it wasn't their first war. You know, they've lived through the war in Yemen and this war also, and they were just talking about how levelling and brutal war is and was shocked, you know, that they they come to Ukraine thinking Europe is a safe place to be.

MG: And now they find themselves on the move again.

LOVEDAY MORRIS: Yeah.

MG: I appreciate you detailing what you're seeing there at the border. Thank you very much for the work that you're doing and thanks for speaking with us.

LOVEDAY MORRIS: Sure, no problem.

MG: Loveday Morris is The Washington Post's Berlin bureau chief, and we reached her this morning near the border between Poland and Ukraine. Irina Soghoyan is Eastern European director for the NGO Save the Children Arena. Hello to you.

IRINA SAGHOYAN: Hello, good morning.

MG: We heard the sounds of people fleeing. We're hearing about what's happening in various bordering nations. What are you hearing from aid workers about the scenes that they're seeing along the border with Ukraine?

IRINA SAGHOYAN: We also have seen and got the reports of massive outflow of the population to different areas due to the conflict. The displacement of populations so far remains one of the key concerns that we have, even though there is no clear data available. And just to say in Kiev, the situation is quite tense at the moment, so we advise our staff to hibernate until the situation is secure. We are in constant contact with the United Nations Humanitarian Coordination Team in Kiev, so we know that massive displacement has been the case from Kiev outwards.

MG: You heard from Kalina there that Poland is expecting as many as a million refugees is that that means an extraordinary number. But is that the number kind of that squares with what you're hearing?

IRINA SAGHOYAN: according to our estimates, which which are based on the preliminary data from yesterday, escalation of hostilities across Ukraine. Have already put around 7.5 million children at risk, and this means that the displacement can be as high as mentioned the past week, there was an organised displacement from the Donbas area into Russian Federation. As many as 100000 people were temporarily displaced to 15 regions of Russia. But from the Ukrainian side, we didn't get any update.

MG: Your organisation focuses specifically on children, and so what are the particular risks to children as this conflict continues, right?

IRINA SAGHOYAN: Save the Children has been working in Ukraine since 2014, and over the past eight years we provided assistance to hundreds of thousands of children, and our assistance was mainly related to child protection, education, child poverty. But now we have to refocus and we are preparing to expand our activities in Ukraine to cover what is the poor, more geographic areas, as in the past we would cover Donbas area only, but we estimate that the needs of children will grow massively across the country. The needs will be widespread and there those are, you know, related to shelter related to acute first aid items, non-food items, but also needs related to education in emergency, as this is something that Save the Children is performing in all situations of war or armed conflict.

MG: And so Kalina said that no NGO has the capacity to address the scale of this crisis. What sort of support do you need? What are you looking for from international partners in this?

IRINA SAGHOYAN: Well, I think we need global support. Indeed, the scale is so big that it's not up to one organisation to actually deal or ensure that the needs are covered. So global support and the support of Canadians in particular are required more than ever. I think it's fair to say also that any alternative to diplomacy and dialogue will threaten children's lives and rights. And having said that, we need to increase support through diplomatic efforts pushing on all sides of the conflict to apply an immediate cessation of hostilities, as this is the only way to protect children from violence and other violations of their rights. The unlawful attacks and threats of attacks against schools, students, children will not only impact children's access to education, but those events will lead a life long, horrifying memory of tragic events they witness. I know the story of a child who remained in a bomb shelter for three days with his grandmother. Can a child forget about this and will also call on unhindered humanitarian access to families caught up in this crisis. Humanitarian access currently is not possible in all conflict affected areas of Ukraine. And as our funder founder, Eglantine Jebb said, every war is a war against children. The lives and well-being of children must be prioritised in the resolution of this conflict.

MG: Well, we know the Canadian officials, in particular, are expediting immigration applications from Ukrainian Canadians who are looking to try and get out of that country or Ukrainians who who want to move here to escape that conflict. You mentioned Canada. What specifically would you want to see from this country?

IRINA SAGHOYAN: Well, it's good to hear that there will be a possibility to host the families in need. I think we would definitely need more resources to be able to implement programmes on the ground. Not all people would want to leave their home country, right, so we have to think about restoration of the country or services. There are people who are unable to leave their communities, even though they see boom boom shooting in their communities, but they have no means to leave those communities. So we call to all countries, not just Canadians, for a joint humanitarian efforts to support families and children in need.

MG: it's a very busy moment, and I appreciate you taking some time to speak with us. It's important. Thank you very much.

IRINA SAGHOYAN: Thank you.

MG: Irina Soghoyan is the Eastern Europe director for the NGO Save the Children, and we reached her in Yerevan, Armenia. This is just the beginning of what could become a full fledged refugee crisis with huge implications for the European Union. Felix Krawatzek is senior researcher at the Centre for East European and International Studies in Berlin. Felix, hello to you.

FELIX KRAWATZEK: Hello, good morning.

MG: As you understand it, what is your estimate in terms of the scale of what we're talking about? How many people might we see flee Ukraine as a result of this invasion?

FELIX KRAWATZEK: As the previous speaker has already said, I mean, the situation is moving very quickly, but the estimates that we can make are based, for instance, on a survey conducted in February, where around 10 percent of those who were surveyed said they would flee their country. So 10 percent of the Ukrainian population would give us something around four million people who would flee Ukraine. And there's actually kind of maps onto the U.S. government estimated up to five million. UNHCR estimated four million. So the worst case scenario looks to be in that region. But the situation is incredibly dynamic, and these numbers could go up. They might also be eventually lower.

MG: Do you think that the neighbouring countries are at all prepared for that?

FELIX KRAWATZEK: No, they are getting ready now. But there has been absolutely no preparation in the previous weeks.

MG: Are you surprised by that? I mean this in speaking with people over the last 48 hours. People are shocked and horrified by what's happening, but not a lot of people are surprised given the intelligence that was released, but also the moves from Russia.

FELIX KRAWATZEK: I think nobody wanted to accept that this could happen and draw the conclusions and get ready with the preparations that are necessary. So we were all I mean, as I said, the intelligence was prepared for this attack to happen. The soldiers were kind of moving towards Ukraine, but going that next step and actually undertaking refugee shelter, building up tents and medical care. And that was simply nothing that people could possibly imagine, and therefore there was no preparation done. Now we find us in a situation where it's incredibly chaotic to welcome or to just have the shelter available for the millions of people who might arrive in Poland, Slovakia, Hungary.

MG: And shelters just the very beginning. I mean, you need somewhere to stay, but as you mentioned medical care and it goes on, what else needs to be put into place for those who are seeking safe harbour.

FELIX KRAWATZEK: Depending on how long these people would like to stay, I mean, the long term implications, of course, are they need an integration into the labour market. They need housing and housing across all of the European Union countries is a big concern and education for the children that are that are on the move. So this is the more long term and in more short term you need on the communal level, you need to feed these people. You need to have somewhere where they can sleep. The winter is coming to an end, so tents might do the job for for some time. But this is an incredible logistical exercise, and it's affecting countries that had not been affected by previous refugee movements. So Poland in particular, was very critical in 2015 and was not taking in any refugees, really. And meanwhile, Poland finds itself on the frontline without the infrastructure. So there's a huge capacity problem on the Polish side, but also in Slovakia and Hungary.

MG: That speaks to the welcome that these refugees may or may not receive. How do you think the Ukrainian refugees will be received in those countries and then in particular, those countries that may not have been part of a welcoming part of of the earlier waves of refugees?

FELIX KRAWATZEK: Yeah. So all the countries that will be in the front line now have not been welcoming of the Syrian refugees in 2015. The insights that we have at the moment is that, for instance, through surveys and other research that has been undertaken that in Poland, for instance, the attitude is much more positive towards Ukrainian refugees, and that is also related to the fact they are already 1.5 million Ukrainians living in Poland and they're working in various sectors of the economy. That's opponent is used to that type of other being part of Poland, and there's less of an aversion. There's no religious difference compared to the Syrian refugees. So we can expect in the short term solidarity with the Ukrainian refugees to prevail and also the anti-Russian attitudes that are part of the Polish populist opinions on the crisis actually to a sense of solidarity. Whether this will be able to persist in the long or even medium term is a very different question. Just because it's so incredibly expensive to accommodate.

MG: You just said a really interesting turn of phrase of that type of other, which suggests that there are certain types of refugees that that are welcome in other types of refugees that that some of those countries would baulk at.

FELIX KRAWATZEK: Absolutely. Think back Poland last fall, when there were refugees from the near and Middle East that were trying to get into Poland via Belarus.

MG: You and I spoke about this.

FELIX KRAWATZEK: Exactly we did. And these these refugees were violently pushed back in violation of the Geneva Convention, and Poland was not moving a single inch to welcome back people in need. But the situation is now very different. Visa restrictions and there are no visa restrictions, but biomedical passports, for instance, are required to get into some EU countries for Ukrainians. And there is talk about lifting that. Borders are de facto open for Ukrainians at the moment.

MG: We heard earlier from a representative from an NGO saying that NGOs just simply don't have the capacity to deal with this scale of a crisis. And so what are you going to be watching for in terms of things that could could have detrimental consequences for for those who are trying to flee to or trying to get out of home, such a dramatic thing to do, but trying to find somewhere safe for them in their families?

FELIX KRAWATZEK: The thing to watch out for is where the aid packages, how quickly they can be released. Now there's all the political attention on sanctions, and that is one leg of the response of the humanitarian assistance that is required and that will require millions of euros that needs to be unblocked extremely quickly as well. And that's the EU's responsibility. But the international community and more general. So that's what I would be looking out for and who moves first and in what order of magnitude and how and bureaucratic. And of course, it hits Europe at a time when, let's say, late corona stage public finances are under severe pressure, so finding these millions will not be easy.

MG: This has been really hard for those who are caught in the crossfire, obviously, but for people watching around the world, it feels as though something has changed. We talked about this yesterday on the programme that this is not just a threat to Ukraine, but people believe a threat to democracy. As somebody just finally who studies what's happening in Europe and Eastern Europe in particular, just in the last minute or so that we have, I mean, how pessimistic are you by what you're seeing?

FELIX KRAWATZEK: That's a hard question to finish. No, I'm incredibly saddened. And it shows, for instance, the limitations of democratic countries and how we deal with these emerging and self-confident autocracies such as Russia and all that we have at our disposition of sanctions. And as we see sanctions will hit the Russian. Economy in the long run, but they will not stop the kind of actions the war that we are seeing and this attack on a sovereign state. It's really violating the most basic rules in international relations. So this is a very, very dark week for all of us, and it questions how we should relate to Russia in the future. Knowing that Russia will stay a European country, it will be in the neighbourhood of all those who are affected so badly at the moment, so can't just completely close the door. But it's a significant challenge to rethink our relationship as the global west to Russia.

MG: It's good to speak with you, as always, Felix. Thank you very much.

FELIX KRAWATZEK: Many thanks.

Felix Krawatzek is a senior researcher at the Centre for East European and International Studies. We reached him in Berlin. Well, coming up after your regional update,

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A team can come here printer's internet coffee places for their team to socialise and do the wellness aspect. The pandemic has shown us the deeper importance of taking care of oneself in their work and in their life.

MG: Post-pandemic, our workspaces look a whole lot different than they used to. We'll continue our series work in progress coming up in 90 seconds. What will the return to office look like? Will you return it all? I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We're back in a minute. Stay with us.

How the pandemic has changed our expectations of where and how we work

Guests: Matthew Kobylar, Jeffrey Siegel

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway, you're listening to The Current. Returning to the office may be something you're looking forward to or perhaps dreading, but with COVID case counts down and restrictions lifting, the time may have finally come for you to go back to that office. In our series, work in progress with the prospect of being back in the office, we're looking at how the pandemic has changed what people want from their workspace. We begin in Vancouver at Werklab. It is a co-working space where people can rent a desk or office by the month. Matthew Cosar, his general manager.

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VOICE 1: This is our communal space here. We have about seating for about 50 people. People come in in the morning. Some people stay late. And what we really want to provide here is a creative and inspiring place. So in in the space, we have about 130 tropical plants that we take care of and nurture and water like our own babies and they really are part of, I think, what makes this place feel so alive? We have offices and then we have quiet areas where members just want to come back and do quite work on their own and not have to be bothered by any social disruption or noise.

VOICE 2: Hi, my name is Gillian Dan Borg and I am co-founder and CSO chief creative officer of a small start-up in Vancouver called Brood Care Inc. As a new parent and as a company that's comprised mostly of women and parents and caregivers, it was really important for us to find a space that was really safe and flexible because there is no way that we know what's coming day by day, and so really, having a place that we can come together has been incredible during the last couple of years. We have meetings a couple of times a week. I'm here full time and we needed a space that had a good vibe. And I will say this place definitely has that. It's not a super corporate environment and it really feels like a home base for us.

VOICE 1: I think really what I've seen and noticed was that prior to the pandemic, people would come here as a social experience and as a social club by coming into our club post-pandemic. It's about just being in proximity to another human being. Getting out of the house and being a place of connection.

VOICE 2: Caring pants on and having a reason to leave the house has been really good for my mental health, even through some of the ups and downs and different variants that have happened. Even if I'm only in here one to three days a week, and it still felt really important to keep some semblance of normalcy and see people, even if it's with their masks on and feel like I'm a part of a community. Even though I'm not necessarily hugging everybody I see or, you know, close to everybody here.

VOICE 1: So walking back to the [unintelligible] and then in the studio, we have a phone booth. This is where people can take their Zoom calls and if they need to be loud and talking, this is where they come on the right. Here we have our chaise lounge chair, which is our private individual meditation chair. So you bring the curtain around and this is where people- you come in the afternoon and I'll find them just the curtains closed for 20 minutes and if the curtains closed, people know in this space to be respectful of someone's back there. And then coming back to the studio. This is it's almost like a holy room. Here it at work, like we lay out the yoga mats and pillows and we really working on redefining the narrative of what work is for the individual. A team can come here, have full access to the office, have meeting rooms, have printers, intranet, coffee places for their team to socialise and do the wellness aspect. And I think what we're seeing right now is the pandemic has shown us as the the deeper importance of taking care of oneself in their work and in their life.

MG: The Tour of Werklab in Vancouver, Matthew Kobylar works with clients on what their offices will look like once people start going back into those spaces more regularly. He's design director at the Toronto Office of the global design firm Gensler. Matthew, good morning.

MATTHEW KOBYLAR: Good morning.

MG: How familiar is what you just heard in terms of what people are looking for from their office experience? We heard the call for a good vibe and more.

MATTHEW KOBYLAR: Yeah, I think that what we heard in that really resonates with me and what a lot of our clients are talking to us about. There's the idea of creating a destination about the workplace that we're hearing from our clients that, you know, it's almost like the office used to be a place you went to work, but now you could work from home. So let's create something really special out of that workplace. So some of those concepts, they're around, you know, having places to work, but also special spaces. So specialist technology, specialists kind of rooms and spaces that allow you to do things you can't do at home to do them better. And I think one of the things they talked about was that isolation, a feeling they might have of isolation. So being in the office is a way to connect with people is something we're hearing from all of our clients.

MG: And do you see that as a direct pick up from the kind of hybrid situation or the working from home during the pandemic situation that a lot of people have been in right now, that people in some ways want to replicate what they have had in their home life and bring that into whatever the new office is going to look like?

MATTHEW KOBYLAR: Yeah, I think it's different for different people. I mean, what we're finding from our research is that older generations maybe have an easier time of working from home. You know, they may have children that are out of the house, they've got that extra bedroom, they've turned into an office. And so they've got the proper kind of ergonomic conditions and it's kind of quiet in their house. Younger folks might actually just have started a new family that might have a baby. You know, that's making a lot of noise. So they the offices going away from their home is actually a place to focus. So our thoughts about the Office of the Future is there really has to accommodate both those kinds of spaces, both those kind of uses. So there needs to be places for people to focus as well as collaborate.

MG: Specifically, what does that look like then? I mean, again, if people aren't working in the office all the time, what would the design of that office look like?

MATTHEW KOBYLAR: That's a good question. To me, the office is more like, I mean, I've been seeing this for a few years, but I think the pandemic actually has made this come a little bit quicker, is the idea of an 18th century salon. You know, back in the day, people used to get together to exchange ideas, knowledge, share different thoughts and principles, you know, and get different comments and feedback from their colleagues. Be mentored and then maybe work to work in a space separately, work out those ideas again and then present them together. So the workplace, if I think of what the workplace was pre-pandemic, you would have seen a lot more workstations. But post-pandemic, we're still going to see workstations because people still need to do some focus work in the office. But there's a little bit more added spaces for collaboration for people to drop in and work in special brainstorming hubs and work rooms in these kind of things that that also incorporate better, higher levels, more sophisticated technology.

MG: How does that square with the concerns that people have around hygiene around a virus that is still spreading?

MATTHEW KOBYLAR: I think in the beginning when the pandemic broke out, we had a lot of concerns from our clients about social distancing. But I think it's, you know, as things are shifting and we seem to be getting more control of the virus and understanding that those numbers are going down and higher levels of vaccination, I feel that the conversations we're having with our clients are more about how do we bring people into the office and make it a destination for them so that they can really excel at what they need to do? And they're attracted to the office because it's got these, you know, this special vibe, this kind of club feel to it that that brings people all together. So we have that. We have this office still as our our cultural totem, right? It's this place that actually pulls us together and celebrates the culture and gives us an opportunity to exchange ideas and live as an office culture together.

MG: I guess I just wonder whether people are going to be comfortable in those shared spaces. We had a conversation with a colleague of yours. It seems like two years ago, right before the pandemic started and the conversation was about the open office space and whether that's a good idea and how we think about the open office and back in 2020. Now you just wonder whether people are going to be comfortable being in those shared spaces, whether people are going to be comfortable with hot desking, the idea that you don't have an assigned desk that you move around from place to place when you come in, if that's still going to work with where people are at right now in this pandemic.

MATTHEW KOBYLAR: It's a good question. I think, you know, there is something about humans throughout our millennia of existence on the planet where we've been social creatures and we've wanted to get together, we wanted to be close to each other. You know, I think it's in some ways you start to go when you see people know you're like, Oh my God, should I shake their hand? And I think we will get to a point where where some of those old social norms to do come back, you know, I think of just after 9-11, people are saying, Oh, would anybody actually live or have their offices in a high rise tower? You know, that was something that we were seeing a lot of. But I think human beings, there is a point of us that is very social that will sort of forget, you know, some of those things around the pandemic that that fear as we get more comfortable with how the vaccines and vaccinations have worked.

MG: What sort of resistance are you facing? I know that you do work with some law firms where privacy, for example, is incredibly important given the sensitive nature of the work that lawyers are doing in the office. What are they telling you about what they're looking for and what they're not comfortable with?

MATTHEW KOBYLAR: Yeah, I think the nature of of lawyers work is it's a very concentrated type of work that they have to do, and a lot of that work is is concentrated and alone work. So whilst a lot of other organisations have kind of abandoned, you know, the physical office for themselves, the law firms are really considering that they should keep those offices. But what we are seeing is a trend that those offices are getting smaller and they're more geared towards the work that people are going to. You in them, so it's focus work and perhaps a one on one conversation with another colleague may maybe as many as three colleagues. What we aren't seeing anymore is firms really diving into having to size offices, you know, and being palatial size like 15 by 20 or 20 by 2o for a partner. It's a lot more universal sized offices, one single size 10 by 15. And that that helps the firm with a number of things around moving people around and equity and a feeling of less hierarchy.

MG: As I was going to say, what about the hierarchy? There's that idea that the further up the chain you go, the bigger office you get and then you get that toe by toe or larger corner office. Is that go out the window, in a situation llike this?

MATTHEW KOBYLAR: It kind of does. I mean, I think there's an element where we're seeing that a lot of the next generation of lawyers coming in there, they're not necessarily motivated by by this idea of of, Oh, I made it, I'm going to have my corner office. And that's how I know. You know, there's other trappings that get associated for those firms to say, OK, you're a partner, you're important here. But that physical space reflecting your importance, it's not really the thing that's kind of motivating them.

MG: I guess we're going to be speaking in just a moment about ventilation and the way that this pandemic that we have lived through changes how we think about ventilation in our office spaces. Is this something that that you talk to your clients about?

MATTHEW KOBYLAR: Yeah, it certainly was more. In the beginning, I think there was a lot of worries about ventilation and social distancing. But as I said, I think most people are heading in the direction of, OK, how do I create this destination for the workplace?

MG: And so then it comes back to the idea of culture. What is the office culture that you think will be creating as we make our way out of this?

MATTHEW KOBYLAR: Well, I think every organisation has their own culture and how they're going to celebrate that, but I think the office will continue to be a major portion of creating that culture. I do work with a lot of law firms, and each summer there's a new intake of summer students and then there's a new intake of articles students who work with that firm for a year and get to learn that firm understand its culture. Doing all of that hybrid has been very difficult. There's no way to really create those connections that we do so easily face to face. One of the things also working from other clients is bringing in somebody new into the team and getting them up to speed with, you know what the culture is, what the organisation is about becomes very difficult. It's almost like if you imagine that if you join a new firm and a new company, you're only seeing the people that you have scheduled meetings with. You don't run into people in the tea point and say, Oh, hey, how are you? Who are you? What do you do? Those kind of connexions are not built when you're just doing everything in a virtual office.

MG: Have you been working from home?

MATTHEW KOBYLAR: I do work from home probably one or two days a week, but I usually go to the office because we're able to go back to the office and I just prefer it. It's for me, it's it's a respite from the change of scenery and it's a bit quieter there actually in the office and I get to see my colleagues that are there. So for me, mentoring the next generation of our leadership, it's really important that I'm there to see them talk to them. And also, we're designers. So what we have to look at sometimes is carpet samples, paint samples, finishes, and we're trying to do that on a screen and hope that everybody's screen is calibrated so that the green I see on my screen is the green they see as is really technical.

MG: I made the part of that's practical. But I guess just also are, are you looking for something different in your office given what you have gone through?

MATTHEW KOBYLAR: Yeah, I think there's some tools that we've learnt, you know, there's some great technology tools that we've we've started to incorporate as part of our design process. And these are things like we used to pin up stuff on the wall. Well, I think we need to just be able to have larger screens and be able to work with each other in the same room, pinning stuff up on a digital board. But our colleagues that are still working remotely in a hybrid sense can still capture that, that information in that data that we're picking up on the wall. So I think that's what I see that things are going to change is that there'll be an integration of more technology like that that allows us to work together in person, but also share with our colleagues that may be working in a hybrid model.

MG: Matthew, good to speak with you about this. Thank you very much.

MATTHEW KOBYLAR: Thank you.

MG: Matthew Kobylar, who's design director at the Toronto Office of Gensler. There has been a big push during the pandemic to make sure that indoor spaces, including workspaces, are well ventilated because of the airborne nature of the COVID 19 virus and since so as people return to shared offices and mask mandates get dropped. There is concern about whether those efforts will carry on. Jeffrey Siegel is a professor of civil engineering at the University of Toronto. Jeffrey, good morning to you.

JEFFREY SIEGEL: Good morning, Matt.

MG: Are we thinking differently in our workplaces about ventilation compared to before the pandemic?

JEFFREY SIEGEL: I really hope we are. Of course, you know, I always think about ventilation and things related to ventilation, but I hope that there is something that's kind of seeped into the broader. Conversation.

MG: OK, so for those of us who don't always think about ventilation, I mean, I think in my office here where I'm sitting right now, my interaction with ventilation is this washing fan that comes on every so often and sounds like a, you know, aeroplane taking off. How would you describe the state of workplace ventilation before the pandemic?

JEFFREY SIEGEL: Yes. So I think it was best described as being quite neglected. And if you think about like what we cared about, you know, if you're thinking about a new office, I think you would be very unlikely to ask about the ventilation if you're renting space. You would probably be thinking more about the costs of operating the system. If you're paying for energy bills, for example, you probably care a lot about that system, but I don't really think we thought about indoor air quality in any sense.

MG: And for some people, that's expense. That is, you know, because it costs money. If you're going to start thinking about it, then you're going to start investing in it. What is the argument for why this shouldn't be something that we just obsess over during the course of a global pandemic?

JEFFREY SIEGEL: Yeah, I mean, this is probably one of my biggest pet peeves is that we do focus on cost and I get it. You know, things cost money and improvements do cost money. And you know, there's not a lot of guidance even about how to improve indoor air quality and a lot of spaces. But I think it's really important to kind of turn that around. We have a lot of information now on the benefits. And so if we improve indoor air quality, whether that's better filtration, better ventilation, no matter how we do it, we get a lot of things like reduced absenteeism and all the costs that come with worker absenteeism. We get better cognitive performance and decision making. And that has an economic value on it. And the really big number is we get avoided health care costs in the future, and that number is really huge. And so most of the estimates that have been done in office buildings and there is a lot of uncertainty here. Most of them show kind of a 10 to one hundred benefit to cost ratio, meaning for every dollar we spend on something like filtration or ventilation, we get a return on investment. If you consider all those things of, you know, 10 to one hundred dollars.

MG: Can you go back to the cognitive performance piece that you just mentioned? What do we know about the connexion between the ventilation in our workspace and our cognitive performance?

JEFFREY SIEGEL: So there are relatively few studies that are out there, and we have a kind of a growing picture. But what we can say pretty categorically is that if we expose people to things in indoor air, you can think about the opposite. If we don't clean the indoor air, we get reduced performance on a variety of cognitive tasks, especially those that are dressed kind of high level decision making. Now we don't fully understand kind of all the mechanisms there and everything, but I think the overall picture is I don't think there's a lot of debate that there are cognitive effects going on. I think we have to do a lot more to figure out the nature of those cognitive effects and really kind of understand the drivers.

MG: You talked about the cost benefit analysis. How much does it cost to fix bad ventilation?

JEFFREY SIEGEL: You know, of course it depends, but but what it depends on is, you know, the nature of the system that's there and kind of how far off some type of optimal performance you are. And I'll be very honest, in some buildings, we're talking a major, very, very expensive retrofit.

MG: What is a major, very expensive retrofit?

JEFFREY SIEGEL: Certainly for a big office building, a number in the millions of dollars. And so that building might be a better target for doing other things, at least as a starting point at a more kind of room or local level. In other cases, it's more that we've got a system that's fine, it's just not really optimised. And so that can be a much smaller investment, though.

MG: The smaller investments would be what?

JEFFREY SIEGEL: Could be a number thousands of dollars for a big building again. But the really important thing that your questions bring out is that every building is a little bit like a puzzle. And because we have not invested a lot in indoor air quality, we don't really have the same kind of methodologies and history that we do with other construction practises. So part of what we need to do is kind of make indoor air quality part of the conversation so that we're not talking about this kind of like, OK, let's look at each building. It's a little puzzle. Let's solve that puzzle and then let's address it. Like, that's kind of an expensive way of doing it.

MG: Just the last point on, you know, office buildings, could you ever and I know you're an engineer, but could you ever imagine a point where we have windows that open up again in buildings as opposed to ones that are, you know, sealed shut for your protection? But you know, the downside of that is that this virus, which circulates like smoke, is in your building.

JEFFREY SIEGEL: Open windows, I think that's a little bit of a red herring. The reason we don't have open windows in tall buildings is that it affects airflow very strongly, depending on the building design, and that can lead to some really practical and some other kind of big engineering challenges. But I think that open windows, if they are a priority, it's certainly something we can solve. It's a question of, you know, putting the resources towards it, and it does mean kind of a building by building level. And there are some buildings where operable windows might be a big part of that solution. And there are other buildings where it's like, No, we're right near a freeway. If we open windows, we're going to get a ton of outdoor air pollution. That's not such a good solution.

MG: I mean, the other part here is we've been talking initially about office buildings, but it's not as though everybody is going to work in an office building. And it's not as though that's the only place where air quality is important when you take a look at factories or retail spaces or places where you might have lower paid workers. How important is it that we have a real focus on those spaces to improve the ventilation there?

JEFFREY SIEGEL: I think you hit on the exact issue. Occupational health is really important for so many workers, but but particularly for, you know, a lot of lower wage workers and it is something that we as a society really need to address. And you know, it's a little messy. There are a lot of different buildings, a lot of different circumstances, a lot of kind of competing issues. If you've got a refrigerated warehouse, you all of a sudden ventilation becomes kind of a pretty serious technical challenge to do well. But it absolutely should be a priority. One little piece that I think is really important is this idea of we have to get much better about assessing risk. Some workplace environments are quite risky and we should be devoting our measures there. Others are less risky and we can do less. And so I think that it's really important that we think about this risk analysis. And so, you know, if you think about a space where people are eating a break room or something like that, people obviously aren't wearing masks. People are close together, people are probably talking. There's a whole bunch of risk factors that come together there. And so that space should be should be treated carefully. We think about spaces that have, you know, that are public facing where there's a lot of interaction between a worker and members of the public. Again, a high risk space. We should be thinking a lot about protecting that worker. So I really hope that that is part of the conversation that we're not just kind of doing this one size fits all, that we're targeting our approach to where the risk is, what it

MG: was specifically, then what are some of those workplaces and some of those areas that you think we we should be focussing on that perhaps don't get the attention that they deserve?

JEFFREY SIEGEL: Yeah. So I think the critical factors are how long people are spending in the environment, how close they are together and how good the ventilation is in those spaces. So I think if you look at those three factors as well as, you know, maybe some ancillary things like not wearing masks and so on in that space, then that's what we use to kind of trigger a deeper attention being paid to ventilation.

MG: Can you regulate that? Can you regulate standards around air quality in a workplace?

JEFFREY SIEGEL: The short answer is it's really difficult and it's really difficult because if a politician says our buildings are not sanctuaries, that's not going to be a popular message. And so we have to, to a certain extent, normalise this within within our conversation. We have to really make it clear that, you know, pointing out a risk is not a bad thing. It's the starting point to fixing that risk until we kind of cross that barrier and get politicians engaged and politicians become engaged when people get engaged in the issue. That's what we need to kind of turn the corner.

MG: Is your sense, just finally, that now that people are who have been working remotely are getting set to go back and they haven't been in those workplaces over the course of the pandemic, they haven't been so-called essential workers who have had to go into work. Now they're facing this and now they're saying we want better. So is that going to lead to a larger change, do you think?

JEFFREY SIEGEL: Am I most optimistic. I think, yes, I've had more conversations about filtration and ventilation in the past two years than in my entire career before it. So, so sure, there is interest. But you know, we also have a pretty short memory and we've got a lot of pressures right now, economic and otherwise a lot of things to think about kind of going back to work and so on. And so what? I'm more pessimistic. I think that probably it'll get be shuffled down to lower priority, but I think it's important to maintain optimism and there is some interest at different levels of government. And I do think that we can think about this, as you know, addressing some long standing equity issues in society. You know, we know people are impacted by poor indoor air and their workplace differently. And we could start to think about using things like ventilation or filtration to address some of that disparity.

MG: Jeffrey, good to speak with you. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mat. Jeffrey Segal, a professor of civil engineering at the University of Toronto. Are you looking forward to going back into the office? Have you been working from home? Are you dreading the idea? What do you want from that office space post-pandemic? We'd love to hear from. You email us thecurrent@cbc.ca or tweet us @TheCurrentCBC that is The Current for this Friday and for this week, it has been some week. Thanks to everybody who works on this programme to help put it together, just a little behind the scenes thing. Yesterday morning we had a show that was perfect. It was a great, great radio programme and early in the morning we took that show and took it apart and rebuilt it because of what was happening in Ukraine. And that is a credit to the extraordinary team that works on this programme every single day. So thank you to them for the work they did in the wee small hours to make this show new .Monday on the programme A conversation with Sarah Polley, writer actor, director. She has a new book out. It's called Run Toward the Danger Confrontations with a Body of Memory. This is an extraordinary book. It's a collection of essays about the stories that she describes as the most dangerous of her life, the story she has never told. The stories that keep her up at night. Sarah Polley Monday on The Current. This weekend on CBC Radio's Quirks and Quarks. There's a special programme it is devoted to the problem of feeding the future. In 2050, the Earth's population could be approaching 10 billion people. The unanswered question is how to feed so many hungry mouths without destroying the planet. Our food system is now unsustainable and vulnerable to disruption from natural and human pressures, according to food researcher Evan Fraser. Though there are Jetsons like technological solutions on the near horizon that could transform the way that we produce our food.

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Low cost LED lights and energy saving and labour saving technologies robotics are allowing us to imagine a future where pretty much any crop could be produced anywhere at any time for something like fruits and vegetables, where we say in the winter months, import virtually everything from places like California, we can start to imagine doing that within vertical farming operations in the middle of winter, in the middle of Ontario, and all the indications that I've seen suggest that we will see even a northern country like Canada become food sovereign for fresh fruits and vegetables throughout much of the year.

MG: You can hear more of that tomorrow on CBC Radio's Quirks and Quarks. Cuz up next on CBC Radio one into the time machine, they go a conversation with Tears for Fears. It'll be great. I'm Matt Galloway thanks for listening to The Current. Take good care and we'll see you on Monday.

The Current Transcript for February 25, 2022

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