What Bill Morneau’s resignation could mean for the Liberals

Guests: Omar Khan, Melissa Lantsman, Marcella Munro

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I expect that we will have a long and challenging recovery. I think it's important that the prime minister has by his side a finance minister who has that longer term vision. And so that's what led me to conclude during this time period that it's appropriate for me to step down.

DM: Bill Morneau explaining his resignation last night. Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland is taking his place. She is the first woman to hold the role of finance minister in Canada. To break down what this means, I'm joined by three political strategists. Omar Khan is a Liberal strategist with Hill and Knowlton Strategies. Melissa Lantsman is a Conservative strategist and national vice president with Enterprise Canada. And Marcella Munro is an NDP strategist who's worked on provincial and federal campaigns and owner of WPM Public Affairs. Hello to all of you.

MELISSA LANTSMAN: Hello.

MARCELLA MUNRO: Hello.

OMAR KHAN: Hi there.

DM: We will get to the resignation of Bill Morneau, but CBC is confirming that there's going to be a small cabinet shuffle early this afternoon and that Chrystia Freeland is going to become Canada's next finance minister. Melissa Lantsman, let me start with you. What did you make of the announcement of Chrystia Freeland as the new finance minister?

MELISSA LANTSMAN: Well, I've got nothing bad to say about Mr. Freeland. In fact, this is a coveted portfolio and the first woman to take the job. But this does speak to the lack of deaths in the in the liberal cabinet. And I think it leaves big holes in the confidence that Canadians felt with the way that Minister Freeland handled the U.S. relationship, a tumultuous one over the last number of months and certainly fed-prov relations. So a big hole to fill in those shoes.

DM: Marcella Munro, what did you think of Chrystia Freeland?

MARCELLA MUNRO: Well, I think it's a great day for women. It is a very significant moment for Chrystia Freeland to become the first female finance minister. We know that this recession, which many are calling a she session, has impacted women, people of colour, indigenous communities the hardest. And I'm hoping with with some fresh eye. And I think that she connects very well to Canadians that that will shift in terms of the government's focus. You know, I agree with Melissa. I honestly, though, think that we have a big problem in Canadian politics right now with the financial debts of most of the benches. But that's for another day. And I agree slightly. But I do think the finance minister position, especially as we're coming out of this economic crisis, is going to be critical to dealing with the federal provincial relationship at the. So I'm not sure we lose something there. But I am concerned about what this means for the U.S. relationship.

DM: Omar Khan, Chrystia Freeland, clearly one of Mr. Trudeau's most trusted cabinet ministers, serving as the deputy prime minister, as the intergovernmental affairs minister. What do you make of her as finance minister? What does she bring to the table there?

OMAR KHAN: Well, like a superstar appointment, and it's quite a critical and timely as well. You know, the the impacts of this current economic downturn have vastly disproportionately affected women in particular. And as Canada begins to develop and build out an economic recovery plan that lends of equitable recovery across women, but also persons of colour and black and indigenous Canadians needs to be at the forefront. But also, let's not forget that Minister Freeland has been one of the most effective communicators of this government, not just through the pandemic, but also through the trade negotiations with the United States. She has held a very high profile or two very high profile portfolios in foreign affairs, but also a very high profile economic portfolio when she serveed as minister of international trade from 2015 to 2017. And also, you know, her international profile will be quite crucial as Canada looks to coordinate recovery plans with the G7 and our other allies across the world. So, look, all in all, it's a superstar appointment. She will serve Canada very well and the timing is right and we need to get to work.

DM: Well, let's turn to get to work. Let's turn to the timing. Bill Moneau calling a press conference at 7:30 p.m. last night during that news conference, Mr. Moreanu denied that he, "got quit." Melissa Lantsman, do you believe him?

MELISSA LANTSMAN: Well, I think that's going to be hard to believe and I think the stories will continue to unfold from what had happened in that room. He was said not to be pushed to resign, but he was subject to leaks, to non confidence from the prime minister and frankly, firm some humility from some humiliation, given the prime minister has turned to two former bank governor, Mr. Carney, throughout all of this. So I'm not sure that this story is is over for the Liberals, but it is a good channel changer to appoint somebody like Minister Freeland.

DM: Omar Khan, let me ask you about the timing of this. I mean, we are in the middle of a public health crisis, an economic crisis in the country, middle of a pandemic. How feasible is it that the finance minister walks into the prime minister's office and says he's resigning because he wants to run for the secretary general of the OECD?

OMAR KHAN: Look, you know, that's what Minister Morbeay said yesterday, and I'm not going to contradict him. You know, others have opined on how realistic that it is. So I'll let the listeners know, use their or or reach their own conclusions. But again, you know, I just want to turn back to Minister Freeland for a second. This is somebody who almost almost a decade ago was the author of a very, very prominent book about how the global economies were shifting to benefit the super super rich at the expense of everybody else. And I think, you know, although I'm sure everyone's thinking changes over the years and I'm sure hers has evolved a little bit since then. I think that lens of how we construct a recovery that is equitable across the board for women, for persons of colour and for everyday working Canadians across the board, people who wake up, go to work, you know, do an honest day's work. These people who have been disproportionately impacted by this economic downturn. I think that's exactly the frame of mind and the type of thinking that we need to bring to the task at hand.

DM: Omar Khan does an effective job of shifting away from Bill Morneau question. But let me take you back there for a second, because obviously what's hovering over all of this is the WE controversy. Here's a bit of what Bill Morneau had to say about that.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: You know, what I've done is I've done my best. I've apologized for that and move forward. And I know that the the important work that we're doing is more important than that problem that we had. And I know that from the prime minister's standpoint, he'll be looking to make sure that he can continue on the work and deal with that as is appropriate.

DM: Marcella Munro, how much is the ethics investigation and the WE controversy playing into Mr. Morneau's resignation?

MARCELLA MUNRO: Well, it plays in a big bunch. And, you know, with all due respect, Omar, it's a bit much to five minutes after the fact try to change the channel that hard. I mean, Ms. Freeland cannot solve every problem this government has, despite the fact she keeps getting appointed to do so. This is a deeper problem. I think what the WE scandal shows is like previous scandals that the Trudeau government has faced is that despite the fact that they keep telling us that they're the middle class and those working hard to join it, they aren't very well connected to the middle class. You know, it was a shock I think to most Canadians probably make just a little bit more than the cheque Mr. Morneau wrote for $41,000 a year to understand that their finance minister keeps claiming to work for them on their behalf can just write that kind of cheque. So that's a big disconnect. And it's not just Mr. Morneau that has that disconnect. I mean, frankly, he seemed quite relieved to walk away yesterday, and that's great. I thanked him for his service. But unlike many Canadians that have lost their jobs during coalbed, are struggling to get their families back to work, and especially all of the women and people of colour that Omar keeps talking about, they can't just sail back off to their Bay Street condition. And they need a government that's focussed on what it's going to take to protect them and their families. And to me, the most disappointing thing right now is that we're again talking about this kind of scandal with the Trudeau government and they're not focussed on things like childcare that would help average folks save.

DM: Melissa Lantsman, the ethics commissioner, is, of course, investigating Mr. Morneau and Mr. Trudeau. Is this going to distract from that investigation or how big a problem is this still for the prime minister?

MELISSA LANTSMAN: I think this is a problem for the prime minister for for two reasons. One, it looks to Canadians that there's different rules for for if you're in the Liberal government versus if you're an ordinary Canadian who is not connected to government. And it's not a story that that has ended because effectively what has happened in whatever way you want to look at it, that Mr. Morneau was either forced to step down or step down or was fired for the same exact transgression that the prime minister made himself. And we're awaiting that third ethics violation, but eventually it's a three strikes you're out kind of rule for Canadians.

DM: You mentioned that he may have been forced to step down or he may have been fired. There have been leaks and whispers happening all week about what the potential rift between Mr. Morneau and the prime minister over pandemic spending and what kind of vision each of them had for the economic recovery. Let's have a listen to what Bill Morneau had to say about that yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: My discussion with the prime minister this morning, we both recognised the necessary vigorous debate that comes between a finance minister and a prime minister. For that matter, between ministers and the prime minister. That's the way you get to better policy outcomes. And I'm absolutely of the view that that vigorous discussion over the course the last five years has led to better outcomes.

DM: Omar Khan, how much do you think that this resignation had to do with different competing visions? Of Mr. Morneau being more conservative, Mr. Trudeau pushing for something grander?

OMAR KHAN: Look, you know, all cabinet and especially Liberal cabinets tend to be big tents, right? So there's always competing viewpoints and vigorous debate. And at the end of the day, you know, you you reach a collective decision and everyone works to execute that decision. Again, I'll say people who tend to place anonymously in media tend to be folks who aren't necessarily in the know. So I would take all of that with a grain of salt. And in any event, not just this case, I will say this, I agree with Marcella, Canadians don't have a big appetite right now for uber partisanship. 100 percent Parliament has a rule to keep the government to account and they've been doing that and they'll continue to do that. But if you take a look at the statements put out by the Conservative Party last night from Pierre Pollivere, if you just, I'm not even going to read it, but if you just take a look at the tone and some of the language in there, I don't think most Canadians have an appetite right now while this country and the world faces a global pandemic and an economic meltdown for that type of uber ultra partisanship. So I know my friend Melissa Lantsman will probably be talking to some folks later today. I would urge you, Melissa, to perhaps pass that advice along. You know, there's just no place for it right now. We have a lot of challenges as Marcella noted. You know, we have to we have to ensure that we we work to support and help middle class Canadians, many of whom are out of work right now. The government has taken important measures like the CERB and others to help people manage through this current crisis. More is necessary. You know, we're going to have to have some supports for the long term care sector.

DM: Which again raises the question about the country being in the midst of an economic crisis and losing the finance minister. So, I mean, does that suggest, Marcella Munro that this is a prime minister who's more concerned about an ethics scandal?

MARCELLA MUNRO: Well, I think it doesn and look, not to get too far into it, but these leaked story, this is, these leaks are, I believe, coming from the PMO. It made them virtually impossible for Morneau to stay. The PMO has clearly lost confidence in the finance minister. And moreover, I'll say to reality check that there is no one who wants to be in public service in this moment for the people of Canada that will walk away from the job of finance minister of a G7 country during the worst economic crisis since the Depression and the biggest opportunity for reconstruction since the end of World War II. That's not credible. So if we can just agree. I'm happy, Omar, to move on and to face the real concerns Canadians have, but there is clearly something deeper going on here when our finance minister kind of surrenders and says, you know, I'm out of here. I mean, he looked relieved if anything. And I think that that's a deep problem in the Trudeau government. And I think the reflection of Canadians is that we're not focused on the middle class and those working hard to join it. We're somehow still, you know, mucking about with letting our friends do what they want. I want to talk about childcare. I don't want to be talking about this, but that's on your government, not on Canadians.

DM: Melissa Lantsman, of course, we're just a few days away from having a new leader of the Conservative Party. So how does a fresh new leader deal with what appears to be a government that's in disarray right now?

MELISSA LANTSMAN: Well, I think you're exactly right. I think there's one thing that's clear, whether it is the prime minister who lost confidence in Mr. Morneau or it is Mr. Morneau who lost confidence in the prime minister. There's only really two ways to tell that story. The one factor that remains true is that it is a government in chaos and Canadians can see right through it, partisan or not. We now are again, I don't have to say it, we're in the biggest economic crisis. We have somebody in the portfolio without the economic chops of Mr Morneau and Canadians are not necessarily going to be better off of it. This presents a huge opportunity for anyone who's going to win on Sunday, the Conservative leadership. And it presents them the opportunity to present a vision to Canadians that is more concerted and less chaotic than we've seen from this government in the last 10 months.

DM: Omar Khan, what does the prime minister need to do? Melissa Lantsman questions the confidence in the government right now. What does the prime minister need to do to keep the confidence in his government of Canadians?

OMAR KHAN: Well, I think the first step today was just to appoint a highly, highly qualified woman to the post the finance minister. And I'll mildly take objection to to Melissa's characterisation that perhaps Mr. Freeland doesn't have same chops as Minister Morneau. You know, this is somebody who has served as Canada's minister of international trade, foreign minister, highly, highly respected global journalist and author on economic issues. So I do think that she absolutely has the chops to take on the job. Look, you know, looking forward to this weekend and the Conservatives choice of their new leader, I think one of thefailings of Andrew Scheer, who by all reports is a very nice person at a personal level, is he always thought he was, instead of being a national political leader, he always acted like he was running a political war room. And Canadians don't want that. Canadians want leaders who will talk about the big issues of the day. Yes, hold the other parties to account when necessary, but do so in a responsible, measured way, especially right now when we're facing real, real national and global challenges.

DM: Some of the I know you've all kind of discounted the whisper campaigns have been going on, but there have been sources that are suggesting that Mr. Trudeau was pushing for transformational change, whether it was on social or economic and that Bill Morneau perhaps an obstacle in that being more fiscally conservative. So, Marcella Munro, I mean, what should we expect from a Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland, in terms of announcements, whether it's on a green economy or otherwise?

MARCELLA MUNRO: Well, it's not unprecedented for the finance minister and the finance department as a whole honestly, Duncan is is is more conservative most of the time. It's kind of their job to watch the bottom line. So we will often have that tension in the government. I don't really think that's the reason that this has all come down. I do think it has more to do with a disconnect in the recent. No, but let's just again, moving on, moving forward. I mean, I would hope. I think Chrystia Freeland, who had the greatest respect for is transformative just by virtue of being the first woman to hold that office. I do have a lot of faith in her, and I do think she may come at these questions and this massive reconstruction that's going to go on probably from a slightly more progressive basis. That being said, while I have the utmost confidence in Ms. Freeland, I think there's a core problem here is that is the PMO going to shift gears? Are we going to see a different attitude or when's the next time we're gonna have someone do something, frankly, really silly because they think they know better? That derails the government's focus when most Canadians just want them to talk about how they're going to get their kids back to school and what the government's going to do to support them through this economic recovery.

DM: And briefly, Melissa Lantsman, what are going to be the steps ahead with regard to the investigation into the WE Charity for both Mr. Morneau and Mr. Trudeau in the days and weeks ahead?

MELISSA LANTSMAN: Well, I think that Mr. Morneau leaving cabinet and frankly, leaving his seat as a parliamentary parliamentarian, gives the committee a lot more leeway to put him on the stand and to continue this conversation about to continue this investigation. And we also have an ethics report coming, which by all accounts suggests that there may be have has been some some some wrongdoing from the government. And again, all of this is self-inflicted. The 7 pm press conference to the WE Scandal, to the Aga Khan, to the SNC scandal, all of those have been a doing of the Liberal government. So you know walking into a potential second wave and an economic crisis, these guys have to stop shooting themselves in the foot.

DM: We will leave it there. There will be lots more to talk about in the days ahead. Thank you all for your analysis on this.

OMAR KHAN: My pleasure.

MARCELLA MUNRO: Thanks.

MELISSA LANTSMAN: Thanks.

DM: Omar Khan is a Liberal strategist with Hill and Knowlton Strategies. Melissa Lantsman is a Conservative strategist and national vice president with Enterprise Canada. And Marcella Munro is an NDP strategist and owner of WPM Public Affairs. They were in Toronto. Love to hear from you, if you have thoughts on Bill Morneau's exit or Chrystia Freeland's promotion, not to mention the work she has ahead of her leading candidate through the most dire economic times the country has faced in several generations. On social media, get in touch with us on Facebook or @TheCurrentCBC on Twitter or if you'd like, send us an email. Go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the Contact Us link. CBC News is next. Then award-winning journalist and graphic artist Joe Sacco learns from the Dene in northern Canada about the conflicts resource extraction has caused for Indigenous peoples. I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current.

[Music]

Award-winning journalist Joe Sacco turns his eye and pen to the struggles of the Dene people

Guests: Joe Sacco

DM: Hi, I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: theme]

DM: Still to come, we continue our presentation of the CBC investigative podcast, Uncover: Dead Wrong. But first, an award-winning American graphic journalist gets to know the story of the Dene people and looks at his own role in telling their story.

[Music: theme]

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound of a traditional Dene]

DM: A traditional Dene song sung by Victor Tssessaze. The Dene people have lived in the North since time immemorial, passing down their stories and songs through the generations. But colonization and resource extraction, including by the oil industry, that dramatic effects on their way of life. Award-winning cartoonist and journalist Joe Sacco tells their story in his new work of graphic journalism, Paying the Land. Joe Sacco, hello.

JOE SACCO: How are you doing, Duncan?

DM: I'm doing well. Fans of comics, journalism and graphic novels will will know you for your war reporting. Your work in conflict zones, Bosnia, Iraq. What drew your attention to the North and to the Dene?

JOE SACCO: Well, first of all, I kind of wanted to get away from conflict, of course, on this trip, I found out you can never really get away from conflict. But I wanted to do a story about climate change and I thought I would approach it somewhat obliquely. You know, where does it all start? It starts with resources being extracted and that always tends to happen on the peripheries, what we call the peripheries. And that involves indigenous people. So I thought I would do a comparative study between various indigenous peoples on different continents in regards to resource extraction and I ended up going to Canada first because I thought that would be an easy story. An easy way to start like this exploration of Indigenous people and resource extraction. And of course, I found it was anything but easy.

DM: You travelled to some pretty remote areas in the north. Travel in the north is always an adventure. What was it like getting there?

JOE SACCO: Well, it was tremendous experience. We drove up the Mackenzie River Valley. I wanted to get a sense of the land, just the vastness of the land. And you can only really do that by driving, which obviously has to happen at the winter when roads are frozen. And you can do that on the winter roads. So it was kind of on spiring, sometimes a little scary because those roads are rough, very narrow at points and, you know, there are cliffs. So it was something new for me, that's for sure.

DM: Also new for youm I mean was was meeting the Dene. What did you know about the Dene before you decided to do the project?

JOE SACCO: Well, I'd read a few books and magazine pieces. I was trying to keep up with what was going on. But truly, it was something I'd get my head around when I was there, because I've never really talked to indigenous people like this before. So I didn't know much going in what to expect except what people were telling me that tell me things like, you know, this topic is sensitive. Be careful about talking about residential schools. Make sure you let elders talk without interrupting, which was really good advice. So I had to sort of adjust myself a bit in how I did my interviews.

DM: There's a remarkable panel where you compare the situation that you're in to ourself and an oil company and you talk about being there to extract something. What was it like for you being a non-native journalist, an outsider, and speaking with the Dene, asking them for these very personal and often traumatic stories?

JOE SACCO: It became clear to me that the Dene are quite used to people coming up to sort of prod them about different things. It's often researchers, anthropologists and then I have to say, you know, and also people like me. Someone told me, you know, see yourself through their eyes, you know, in terms of colonialism and in I sort of resisted that in a certain sense, but then I began to appreciate it and I realized, you know, I'm up here looking for something, too. And the people have been exploited up there. Their lands have been exploited. So I had to sort of ask myself, where do I fit in all this? Am I exploiting as well? And, you know, it's a question I've always asked myself, but I definitely had to ask it in that particular situation.

DM: You were there to talk about resource extraction, whether it was oil or gas or diamonds and so what did you learn about the about the oil industry and how it's impacted the Dene?

JOE SACCO: Well, I mean, it's kind of, it's pretty complicated because obviously the oil industry is taking something from the land and I guess you have to say, what are they paying back to it? But I think what's happened to the Dene and to other indigenous people is that they've been basically forced off the land where they were able to survive, as difficult as those conditions might have been and they were forced off the land by the Canadian government through the schooling system. As you well know, they became wage labourers. I mean, that's sort of the only thing is wage labour. And what are the only jobs up in the north? I mean, unless you have a government job, I guess we have to have education and all that, the jobs are resource extraction jobs, so indigenous people there are tied to it, whether they want to be or not.

DM: You speak with Dene who are firmly opposed to oil and gas extraction, but also leaders who are banking on it. So what kind of tensions did you see playing out in the way that industry operates in these northern communities?

JOE SACCO: Well, one thing I had to sort of appreciate right away is that any indigenous group is not monolithic, that there are many viewpoints within it. And I would say also that everyone I spoke to, even the ones who are sort of gung ho on resource extraction, also really talked about stewardship of the land. But you do see conflicts within the community about how far to go, about what it means. Some people understand or think that we need money. Let's face it, we live in this world now and this world requires money. And others see the problems with that. They see a lot of people coming in that roads are going to bring in all kinds of elements in the community that they don't necessarily want. So there are those conflicts. But then there are also sometimes conflicts between communities sitting perhaps on the same resources and then those become boundary disputes. You know, they might have different ideas about how they want to approach resource extraction and that leads to conflict too.

DM: So often when we talk about indigenous communities and economic resource extraction, it's through the lens of economic development, but in so much of your work, context is key. In this book when you're asking the Dene about their history, of course, what also comes up is, is the residential schools. And you go into very deep and and stark detail about the Dene experience with the residential school system. For you as an Americanm what was that like to hear that? How well known is the story of of Canadian residential schools in the U.S.?

JOE SACCO: I'd say it's not very well-known at all. I mean, to be quite honest, I think most people in America and I include myself, don't know too much about our neighbour in the north. We tend to think of Canadians as the North Americans who got it right. So we have this perception of Canadians. We don't know their history. We don't know about the residential school system there. Of course, we don't really know about it here either, because there were residential schools in American-Indian communities also. So this was a big learning experience for me as well.

DM: After spending four years on this book, after a couple of different trips and spending so much time with the Dene, I wonder what sort of reaction did you get from them when I'm assuming that you sent some copies of the book to them?

JOE SACCO: I sent about three boxes. They haven't been completely distributed yet, as far as I understand it. But the reaction I've had is has been pretty good. The personal reaction I've got from it has been pretty good. I mean, the main one for me, was Paul Andrew, because that's that's how I open up the story and it goes back to life in the bush. And as he told me, he wasn't sure he wanted to be part of the project. He was he had to bring up a lot of the trauma from residential schools when he was talking to me, but I think he felt good about the project and that certainly meant a lot to me.

DM: What do you hope that the Canadians and the Dene take from your book, Joe?

JOE SACCO: Well, Canadians, let's say white people. I think I want them to understand that colonialism really isn't dead in Canada, that it doesn't end when the residential schools end and when a Truth and Reconciliation Commission issues a final report. That colonialism is something that is passed down in a way through the trauma of colonialism and its effect on on indigenous people. And I guess the other thing, there's something to be learned about the way other peoples, indigenous peoples think of land as something not owned necessarily, but something that you have a reciprocal relationship with. That humility I talked about and in approaching something like the environment. For the Dene, I would say, despite all the problems, there's reat strength in those in that society and I think I hope that they see the strengths within themselves. I don't think the Westerners are going to solve their problems. I think they have to solve their own, they have to solve these issues themselves now.

DM: Joe Sacco, thank you for sharing the story.

JOE SACCO: It's my pleasure, Duncan.

DM: Take care.

JOE SACCO: Thank you.

DM: Joe Sacco is a journalist and comic book artist. His new book is called Paying the Land. Let's go back to a bit more of artist Victor Tssessaze singing a traditional Dene song.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound of a traditional Dene song]

CBC Podcast - Uncover: Dead Wrong – Episode 2

DM: I'm Duncan McCue and you're listening to The Current. This summer, we've been bringing you some of the best from the teams at CBC Podcasts. Today, we continue our presentation of Uncover: Dead Wrong. In today's episode, the police investigation into Brenda Way's murder is going nowhere until a new investigator is assigned to the case. Suddenly, new witnesses and evidence start to appear, and all of it points in one direction. Here's host Tim Bousquet with Episode 2 of Uncover: Dead Wrong, Psychic Visions.

SOUNDCLIP

TIM BOUSQUET VO:

There are over one hundred unsolved murdered or missing person cases in Nova Scotia.

Brenda Way was murdered in 1995. Because she was seen as just a sex worker, there wasn’t much media attention.

Six years earlier, another young woman captured the media and the public’s attention when she went missing and was presumed murdered.

It’s perhaps the best known case in Nova Scotia / and it reveals something about how at least one murder investgation / was being handled by the Halifax police / and how that ties into the murder of Brenda Way.

Unlike Brenda, Kimberly McAndrew was not a sex worker.

Kimberly was 19 years old, a pretty white woman, the daughter of an RCMP officer. She moved from a small town in northern Nova Scotia to attend Dalhousie University in Halifax. She got a job at Canadian Tire. Then on August 12, a Saturday afternoon, she got off work a little early, walked out the door to the parking lot, and was never seen again.

Like so many other cases in Nova Scotia, Kimberly’s disappearance went unsolved. Then, in 1995, a new investigator was assigned to take a look at the case.

When he was investigating what happened to Kimberly, he evidently got frustrated. So frustrated that he talked to a psychic, a woman in the US named Noreen Renier.

I found Renier in Florida, called her up and asked about her sessions with the Halifax police. She kindly sent me the recordings of the sessions, and I published the recordings in the Halifax Examiner because, well, this is nuts.

NOREEN: Normally to prove that I'm a psychic to the police, I usually describe the victim, but you've given me pictures of her. So I appreciate that. I'll have to maybe do a little bit mentalness on her. Maybe I'll go into her mind a little bit because I can see how she looks and just how she was before she left. The handwriting, I'm going to be holding, I've got the pictures. I'm just bringing everything closer to me. OK. And just say her name again, please. Now, which is the most recent or last picture of the profile?

[00:00:55] OFFICER: Just one moment. I believe Noreen, the profile would be the most recent photograph.

[00:01:03] NOREEN: OK. I like to look in the eyes and I can't in those, so I'm going to look at her other eyes. But let me just go into her personality just a little bit how she was when she was living with you. OK. I want to be Kimberly. I want to be Kimberly

VO BOUSQUET:

Part of the testimony that convicted Glen Assoun was also reliant on a psychic.

I talked to retired cop Tom Martin - because he was actually on the call with that psychic from Florida.

Aug. 18, 2020 episode transcript

Social Sharing

More from this episode