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The Current Transcript for April 11, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

MALE VOICE: This has incredible economic benefit for the province, it shows that we're committed to this industry and this valuable resource committed to low carbon transitory oil products during this time of transition.

MATT GALLOWAY: Last week, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change released its latest report, warning of the need for urgent action now to slow climate change. That same week, the federal government gave the green light to a massive new offshore oil development in Newfoundland. In 30 minutes, the face off between oil revenues and the environment in that province and what the project says about Canada's commitment to the environment. Also this morning, your mail on making ends meet as the cost of gas, housing and just about everything else keeps climbing. Plus.

ERIN: Dear vaccine, you came too late for my grandmother, but just in time for my nephew. Thank you for letting me finally hold him and I can feel her life anew.

MG: Cast your mind back to when the COVID vaccine first appeared, people were taking selfies of the jab, posting photos of the person who gave it to them. And it turns out writing poetry about getting the shot. In an hour, expressing what many saw as a turning point in the pandemic through verse. We begin, though, with the search for accountability in a war zone. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Searching for accountability in Russia’s invasion of Ukraine

Guests: Oleksiy Sorokin and Carla Del Ponte

MG: Tens of thousands of people in eastern Ukraine are on the move, they are leaving their homes searching for safety in the wake of signs that a new Russian attack in that area is imminent. This after a missile hit a train station Friday in Kramatorsk, where hundreds of people had sought shelter. More than 50 people were killed in that attack, prompting global condemnation and some calling it another war crime. We'll speak more about prosecuting war crimes in just a few minutes. But first I'm joined by Oleksiy Sorokin, political editor for the Kyiv Independent, and he is in Kyiv. Oleksiy, good morning.

OLEKSIY SOROKIN: Good morning.

MG: How are you doing?

OS: Are better than a month ago still pretty bad?

MG: Let me ask you about what we saw this weekend. The U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson and the Austrian chancellor were both in Ukraine meeting with the President Volodymyr Zelensky walking through the streets of Kyiv. Why were those trips significant, do you think?

OS: I think it's important for the world to show public support to Ukraine. We know that the visit by Johnson wasn't announced. I think it's very important to see that Kyiv is standing, that Ukraine won the battle of Kyiv, that the country is slowly getting back to normal, at least in the capital. And I hope that this trip will also bring more weapons to Ukraine, more financial aid to Ukraine and actual support not only pictures.

MG: What does getting back to normal mean? I mean, again, we saw those images of Zelensky and Johnson walking through the streets of the capital, which are extraordinary. What does getting back to normal mean?

OS: Over the past several weeks, people began returning to Kyiv. A lot of places we used to visit are reopening, the public transport is working better and we see more people on the streets. We see people having coffee, talking to each other in cafes, something that we didn't see in Kyiv for weeks.

MG: The scenes in Kyiv are very different, obviously, than what was happening at the Kramatorsk train station. That attack was horrific and, as I mentioned, has generated condemnation from people around the world. What more do we know about what happened at that train station?

OS: Yes, unfortunately, everything I said about Kyiv is not possible to say about eastern Ukraine and Kramatorsk. We know that 57 people died in a Russian attack on a train station. We know that Ukraine announced prior that people will evacuate. There were trains, humanitarian trains to western Ukraine, so this was a deliberate attack on civilians. We know that over 100 people are injured. The train station is currently non-operational, and we see that attacks on civilians are only increasing in regions like Kramatorsk. Obviously, Mariupol, Kharkiv, other cities in Luhansk, Donetsk.

MG: There is an increased urgency when it comes to evacuations from eastern Ukraine. How are people getting out safely now to other parts of the country?

OS: I think the train operator, Ukraine's train operator, has done a magnificent job to relocate millions of Ukrainians from war zones to safe havens. This happened in Kyiv when the war started. This happened in Kharkiv. Now this is ongoing in cities like Kramatorsk, Slavutych, Donetsk and Luhansk. So those people, railway workers are true heroes, and unfortunately, we see that now they are targeted by Russia.

MG: We're going to be speaking in just a few moments about prosecuting war crimes. We know that that attack at the train station is one of many that are being considered war crimes committed by Russia. The prosecutor general in Ukraine said her teams have documented something like 5600 cases of war crimes. What, as you understand it, is the challenge ahead in investigating and prosecuting those crimes.

OS: I think the hardship here is not investigating, but it's prosecuting because we don't have to go far. Bucha the town is 20 kilometres from downtown Kyiv. We see the atrocities. I visited towns like [inaudible], like [inaudible], like the Bucha and Irpin, and there's people who were tortured who are lying down on the streets and shot by Russians. So we know that war crimes have been committed by Russia. I think now that the European Union also will help investigate those crimes, we will have more and more information on that. The problem here is having those people behind bars. And unfortunately, as we understand, while the current Russian regime is in power, I don't see anybody being prosecuted and jailed.

MG: You said when I asked you how you were doing that, you are better than a month ago, but there is still this war unfolding. It's into the sixth week now. How are people... Just generally, the people that you've met, the people that you talk to, how are they feeling, broadly?

OS: I think people are getting used to war. This sounds very horrible, but that's what is happening. All of my colleagues, all the people in the streets, both in Lviv and Kyiv and in other parts of the city and the country. They're saying that unfortunately, they got used to it. They made accommodations. They now spend times and bomb shelters. And for them, this is the new norm. And what is happening is that people still try to find some happy moments in this horrific scene. There's videos of birthdays being celebrated in bomb shelters. There's videos of people finally meeting their relatives that they thought were lost in this war. And I think it's important for people to have at least some moments of happiness in this grim time.

MG: Oleksiy, take care of yourself and stay safe and we'll talk again. Thank you.

OS: Thank you.

MG: Oleksiy Sorokin is the political editor for the Kyiv Independent. He was in Kyiv this morning. Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky has accused Russian troops of committing war crimes from the beginning of the invasion. Here is what he said last week in an address to the United Nations Security Council.

TRANSLATOR: SOUNDCLIP: Zelensky: Everyone who gave illegal orders and everyone who followed them by killing people will appear in front of the tribunal, which will be identical to the Nuremberg process.

MG: Zelensky wants Vladimir Putin and those responsible for war crimes to be held accountable in, as you heard, a tribunal identical to the one held at Nuremberg after the Second World War. My next guest is one of the very few people who has successfully brought war criminals to face justice. She served as chief prosecutor for two International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia and for Rwanda. Carla Del Ponte. Hello.

CARLA DEL PONTE: Hello.

MG: You have called for the International Criminal Court to issue an arrest warrant for Vladimir Putin. Why is that an important step to be taken?

CARLA DEL PONTE: Yeah, I must tell you that when I saw on the television what happened in Ukraine, and I was horrified. I remember all what I have done during my staying as executor of the ICTY, the tribunal former Yugoslavia, and I could not stay still. And so the first occasion I have, I spoke about the war crimes that were committed daily and we saw that daily on the television and of course, the men responsible for these war crimes and crimes against humanity, not to speak about the crime of aggression. The main responsibility is President Putin. And of course, with my experience, I've got all the needs to prevent an indictment.

MG: Is it realistic that the president of Russia himself might be held personally responsible for what we have seen coming out of Bucha, out of Mariupol, out of the train station where 50 civilians were killed? Is it realistic that Putin himself would be held responsible for that?

CARLA DEL PONTE: Yes, it is realistic to conduct an investigation to issue an indictment and obtain an arrest warrant, an international arrest warrant that must be done by the International Criminal Court because that is justice for the victims. That is the whole justice for those victims. And it is extremely important that the ICT, the International Criminal Tribunal, is working on that because that would be a great success to obtain an indictment and of course, an international arrest warrant.

MG: There is an extraordinary amount of evidence coming out of the war in Ukraine. There are cell phone videos, there are photographs, there are satellite images. How would those be used in a potential prosecution?

CARLA DEL PONTE: These information are all very important, but it's not an evidence that you can present in court. And if it is not supported by other evidences, by testimonies and documents and analysts expect we are verifying the authenticity of this video and go on and on. But it is extremely important because it is the start of a proper investigation.

MG: How do you sort through the competing claims? You have Russia denying responsibility for war crimes. You have that evidence that has been documented. How do you go about distinguishing between those competing claims of what's actually happening on the field of battle?

CARLA DEL PONTE: I saw that, for example, for Bucha, it was satellite images that confirm what is done by the Russian military. But the important thing is to have access to the location because the you know about the ammunition, the bombs, by the bombs. The rest of the bombs, you can for sure identify who is the owner of the bomb, who used this bomb. So that is extremely important.

MG: How important is it to investigate the possibility... This is a war and it is unfolding in real time. How important is it to investigate the possibility of war crimes on both sides of this conflict?

CARLA DEL PONTE: It must be done. It must be done. I saw on the television that the Ukrainian military shot the Russian soldier. That is absolutely something that must be investigated. My experience showed me that during an armed conflict, you have crimes, war crimes and crimes against humanity from both sides, like committed from both sides. It's never one the good and one the bad side. Both are committing crimes. That is what my experience in Rwanda, in Yugoslavia and by my colleagues in other international tribunals.

MG: What has gone wrong with the international system since you were prosecuting war criminals from Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia?

CARLA DEL PONTE: The main concern is that international justice can be done if the states have the political will to do it. It's political security guards. You see Syria, Syria, you have hate crimes committed every day during four years of war, and it is continuing. No hope for justice for the victims because the Security Council is blocked by Russia.

MG: You resigned from that U.N. commission investigating what was happening in Syria. Do you think that those commissions that are set up to investigate human rights abuses are in some ways built to fail, that they can't be successful because of the structure that they operate in?

CARLA DEL PONTE: No, this commission can be very useful at the beginning. At the beginning, because it was so done for Yugoslavia and for Rwanda. After the first commission in Yugoslavia, the commission issued a report and in a few months, the first report in three four months that the Security Council decided to constitute an international tribunal. That this is a way it works.

MG: The president of Ukraine has called for Russia to be stripped of its veto power. Is that the right approach if Russia is proving to be an obstacle into the investigation of war crimes around the world?

CARLA DEL PONTE: Of course, Russia will not cooperate. Of course not. But it is not. It is not. It is not needed. But it is possible to investigate the war crimes crimes against humanity perpetrated in Ukraine, even if Russia is not cooperating with this investigation.

MG: How is that possible if, as you said, the structure doesn't permit it because Russia has a veto.

CARLA DEL PONTE: That is due to institute a tribunal, but now you have the International Criminal Court who is doing an investigation and can go on with that.

MG: The absence of Russia from the International Criminal Court, Russia's not a party to the ICC. What obstacles does that put in place?

CARLA DEL PONTE: Apparently not for war crimes and crimes against humanity, it seems, is that the International Criminal Court could not proceed against Russia for the aggression crime, but crimes against humanity and war crimes, yes.

MG: I guess people just wonder whether there is a larger, systemic problem if you move beyond Russia. People worry about China and the conduct of China and Xinjiang. People have questioned in past the legality of U.S. wars in Iraq and in Afghanistan. And there are questions as to whether the structure of the U.N. creates an issue when it comes to veto power that prevents it from properly investigating what's happening around the world. Do you believe that the structure itself of the United Nations is an obstacle to truly finding justice?

CARLA DEL PONTE: If you see the Security Council, of course, of course. As you see in the experience from all these years by the Security Council, it was not possible to do something because of the veto, right? That is another big problem by the UN who need reform because otherwise they are doing almost humanitarian aid and it is very important. But the UN should also work for peace and democracy, and that is, at this time, not possible anymore, unfortunately.

MG: You're optimistic, though, that there is a better way to do this again. People see the divisions that play out on the floor of the Security Council and they wonder about the utility of the U.N. more broadly, you're optimistic that there is a better way forward?

CARLA DEL PONTE: Yes, I remain optimistic because the U.N. is a very important institution, and I'm sure that with some time it will be a change. The same, I hope for international justice. International justice at this moment is very down. Maybe what happened in Ukraine is a good help for international justice, to come out and to be accepted almost.

MG: What does justice look like, do you think for those in Ukraine right now?

CARLA DEL PONTE: The victims are asking for justice. I met many, many victims former Yugoslavia and Rwanda, and because I didn't think that it was so important for victims because the victims are the people who survived these atrocities need help and need the economical help and so on. And so I thought they don't... They don't... They will not ask for justice. And I was wrong on my side. They are asking for justice. They need justice. It is extremely important and we know that.

MG: And so it's justice. Again, what does it look like? Does it look like Vladimir Putin being arrested for war crimes? Does it look like the world is paying attention to what's happening on the ground? What does justice look like?

CARLA DEL PONTE: Justice must do his work. Precise mandate definition of crimes. Who are the responsible military and political responsible for the crimes? And prepare to be able to conduct a trial as soon as they arrested. That is the main goal of international justice.

MG: Can I ask you one final question, which is that it's easy to become very cynical about the process of justice you're just seeing now the first trial of a person accused of war crimes in Darfur. The trial is just beginning now in April of 2022. That's 20 years after this. You said, I keep telling myself that justice will prevail. Where does your optimism for this come from in the face of all of the obstacles that we've talked about?

CARLA DEL PONTE: Because it is the right way, because you have no other way. It starts with the Nuremberg, with the docu trials and now the International Tribunal [inaudible] and the Permanent International Court. So it is the right way. So we stay on that and we hope and see that many people are working for that. And I would ask President Biden, when he speaks about justice, that the United States joined the permanent court.

MG: Then if the United States were to join that, that would give the search for justice more legitimacy?

CARLA DEL PONTE: It would be important because, you know, I remember. The help of the United States in the International Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, it was extremely important also for Rwanda. So United States should be part of this International Criminal Court.

MG: Carla Del Ponte, I appreciate your time this morning. Thank you very much.

CARLA DEL PONTE: Thank you. All the best.

MG: Carla del Ponte served as chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia and the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda. She was in Ascona, Switzerland. The CBC News is next and then...

MALE VOICE: IT means that we're committed to the workers, of course, the hard working women and men in this workforce, and it gives hope to the industry that has suffered for the last few years.

MG: That industry is oil and gas. A new oil drilling site has been approved off the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador. What exactly does this mean at a time when we're supposed to be transitioning off carbon? That's coming up in six minutes. My name is Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

[Music: Theme]

What the Bay du Nord oil project means for climate activism

Guests: Andrew Parson, Steve White and Angela Carter

MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Still to come poetry in the time of COVID. But first, Canada's new oil mega project and the promise being made that this is part of a fossil fuel phaseout.

[Music: Theme]

MG: Last week, the Federal Environment Minister, Steven Guilbeault formally approved the controversial Bay du Nord oil project off the coast of eastern Newfoundland. This is a decision that highlights the tension between meeting Canada's climate targets and the demands of an energy sector that is yet to transition to alternative solutions. The approval of Canada's deep-water oil project came with 137 conditions, including that the development of net-zero emissions by the year 2050. The Norwegian company behind the mega project says it will create thousands of jobs and billions of dollars in royalty and corporate tax income. But climate change advocates question whether this is just another major step backwards. Andrew Parsons is Newfoundland and Labrador's Minister of Industry, Energy and Technology. Minister Parsons, good morning.

ANDREW PARSONS: Good morning, Matt.

MG: How big is this project going to be?

ANDREW PARSONS: It's really hard to measure. I guess I can provide some context. There's a framework agreement back in 2018 with the company. At that point economically, you're looking at about 300 million barrels. So the impact in terms of economics now you're looking at about $15 billion in economic activity, 11,000 person years of employment, $75 million fund towards research and development. And since that time, further drilling has shown that actually, this project has grown in scope and size. So the impacts on this province are significant, and that's why there was certainly such a push to see the project move forward.

MG: Tell me more about that. How important, from your perspective, is this project to the economy of Newfoundland and Labrador right now?

ANDREW PARSONS: I think it's almost impossible to overstate. You only have to speak to people here that have been working in the industry. I mean, when you just speak about the impacts on our Treasury and therefore our social programming, I mean, in some years, the oil industry is about one third of our revenues. This is what's helping to pay for our health care sector, for our education system. And again, we haven't seen much in the last few years. I mean, between the pandemic and just the complete sideways direction of the industry, it's been really difficult. We've seen people wondering about their livelihoods, their careers. So now when you look at the fact that you know, you're going to get 10 to $15 billion from corporate tax or royalty when we've talked with thousands of people that are going to work... The other thing is that this it's an intangible effect on just that. The mentality here, people were wondering, we needed some good news. This is giving a lot of people assurance that, you know, we have a future here. And then when you would tie this into the fact that we are moving forward on the renewable side of things. I think it puts us in a pretty good place.

MG: The project was approved in the same week that the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change put out its latest report. The report warned that the Paris Climate Agreement target of limiting global emission warming to 1.5 degrees is becoming out of reach, that unless there is dramatic action taken, that target is going to not be possible. The secretary general of the U.N. said "investing in new fossil fuel infrastructure is moral and economic madness." Is what you are talking about moral and economic madness?

ANDREW PARSONS: I don't think so, but I guess I would preface it by saying that, I get it. We're not sitting here as a province or a country that doesn't believe in climate change. We're a federation that absolutely believes in transition. But the reality is that transition takes time. It's not at the flick of a switch. Even in 2050, there will still be significant demand for oil. So we see this as a project that is going to help with that transition. So just a couple of things here. First of all, when you look at the emissions of this project, I mean, the international average is around 16 and a half kilograms of CO2 per barrel. In Alberta, it's about 77. This project, it's going to be eight. This is going to be top of class. This is going to be world standard of development moving forward. The other thing is that for the first time ever, this project must be net-zero by 2050. We've never seen that in a development like this.

MG: But you know, of course, that the emissions, the majority of emissions come not from the extraction of the resource, but from the burning of the resource. And when that's calculated, what comes out of Bay du Nord will be something like six percent less of the oil that comes from the oilsands.

ANDREW PARSONS: The reality is that look, right now planes, other forms of transportation, there's still a demand. Even Mr. Guilbeault said himself that we are still going to have significant demand in 2050. We need to meet that demand. So if we pull ourselves out of this, then what we're doing is just opening up the world to oil that I think has a lesser regulatory standard or ethical standard. Why would we pull ourselves out of that pool? Why would we do without that revenue here? It's going to have to come from somewhere. So I think we have a product that can be provided. I think you're seeing changes in this, perhaps even opposed to the projects that would have been greenlit five years ago. There's a huge number of conditions on this. It's not the end yet where people will be completely satisfied, but I truly believe it to be a step in the right direction.

MG: You said earlier, we get it, when it comes to climate change. And I think there might be people who wonder how that's possible if a major development like this goes forward. So square that for me, how can you say that we get it when something like this is approved?

ANDREW PARSONS: Well, again, I come back to transition. We've committed to net-zero by 2050. We did that two years ago, so we've already launched a renewable energy plan. And just this week we announced the removal of the moratorium on wind development. We believe as a province that we've got huge projects here when it comes to wind, when it comes to hydrogen, to providing the energy, the cleaner energy that the world needs. We have an opportunity to do that. But again, these take time that you get into things like reliability. There's a whole number of things that don't part and parcel with that. This is the thing where I don't think it's a black and white yes or no answer for us to be completely cut off, I think would not be the wisest move going forward. And I get it. People say no such thing as clean oil. I get it. But there is a difference between one product versus the next. If we have the better part and it's going to help provide education, health care, social benefits that we need here in the province, that again has had a very difficult time financially if we cut that off. Where do these things come from?

MG: How far do you think Newfoundland and Labrador is behind in terms of renewables, given that 15 year moratorium on wind farms?

ANDREW PARSONS: Well, there's no doubt that. I mean, some of the public policy made here in this province years ago was to support a mega project, which you know, sadly has a negative connotation on it. Again, I truly don't know how far we are behind other provinces.

MG: But you know what I'm getting at, in part because people will say that there are jobs in this industry as well, and that they're not adjusting for 15 years. Those jobs never materialized.

ANDREW PARSONS: I think there are going to be jobs in both industries. One of the challenges going forward, I think, and I hope, is going to be finding the bodies to fit in the different industries that are hopefully going to be created here. There's a huge amount of capital that's out there waiting to be expended. And again, we've had significant interest... So I don't like to think we're behind. I think as a province. We're finally turning on to the fact that we need to move in this direction, and I think we're willing and able. Previous administrations, I think, made some poor policy choices, but we can't just sit back and complain about that. All we can do is control the decisions we make going forward.

MG: Just before I let you go, this country has a record of missing its climate targets and this is an international story. What do you think internationally, the message is about this country? When Canada approves a project like this in the midst of increasing anxiety around the pace of climate change?

ANDREW PARSONS: Well, I guess I mean it's hard for me to comment on some of the federal decisions. And again, I haven't played much of a role in that, but I look at this as a challenge that we are absolutely not alone in. Many other nations, including the UK, including the U.S., are all going through this same challenge of, you know, the need for projects now, the desirability of them versus, where do we want to be in the future? [inaudible] is going through the same thing. Norway is going through the same thing. You know, we're not alone in that. But I do think there seems to be... We are... There's a pretty big polarization sometimes in this as well between people that are still absolutely against any of this, like we're a province that has bought into to the carbon tax, we're buying into emission reduction. But that doesn't mean that we don't have to figure out a way to support the rest of the province now. So as a federation, I think we all struggle with that, but I like to think optimistically that at least we are trying to go in the right direction.

MG: Andrew Parsons, Good to speak with you. Appreciate it. Thank you very much.

ANDREW PARSONS: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Andrew Parsons is the Minister of Industry, Energy and Technology in Newfoundland and Labrador. During the pandemic, thousands of workers in Newfoundland and Labrador found themselves suddenly out of work. People like Steve White. Steve's a pipe fitter in the oil and gas industry. Lately, though, work has been scarce. He is in Victoria, Newfoundland, just about an hour outside of St. John's. Steve, good morning to you.

STEVE WHITE: Good morning, Matt.

MG: What does the approval of a project like Bay du Nord mean for you and your family? Do you see this as good news?

STEVE WHITE: Well, Matt, I'm a bit of a skeptic when it comes to stuff like that. We as trade people, we heard this before about jobs like, I think since the White Rose extension, like we were promised, all these jobs. My trade as a pipefitter are very trade specific. I'm not like your electricians and carpenters [inaudible]. When these mega-projects are not available, they can find work in residential areas. So to me, with the White Rose extension, I believe there's been a handful of pipefitter out there and we, you know, we're struggling even before the pandemic. I was always looking for work. I was, you know, a manager when [inaudible] shutdown. But after all, when the pandemic hit. I was supposed to go out on to Terra Nova then all of that was a shutdown. So we were really basically, you know, sitting ducks.

MG: So I mean, you hear the promises, but you're kind of like, show me the jobs and then I'll believe you.

STEVE WHITE: Yes. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

MG: What's it been like trying to find work lately?

STEVE WHITE: You know, I'm not just speaking for myself I'm speaking for a lot of tradesmen when it comes to this. It's been, you know, a real struggle.

MG: What does that look like, I mean, a real struggle. You mentioned Terra Nova and the jobs that were there and then the pandemic arrives and those jobs get shelved. What does that mean when you're trying to find work?

STEVE WHITE: Well, I'm a member of a union, a place of union, and they've been struggling lately. I have two small kids, one nine, one 13 and I'll try and keep them actively on hockey and figure skating and whatnot. And it's been an absolute struggle like, there's just no work... not even union. Unless you want to go away for three months at a time, which is really hard to do. When you've got kids that age, they need parenting. My wife works with the NLC, so she works, you know, and she's only a temporary clerk. So she works weird hours, you know, 4-9 shifts. So like, there's nobody here to help them with their homework. So It'd be nice for Bay du Nord to go ahead. For Newfoundland, I'd like to know if they're going to get any work building that vessel that's got to be built and where it's going to be going. And can there be a turnaround? Like we as a trade people, you know, turnarounds are a much better rate for us with families. Like two weeks on, two weeks off. We don't have to go away for a long span of time.

MG: Have you thought about that? I mean, obviously, you know, there's so many people who travel west and elsewhere for work. Is that something that you've considered?

STEVE WHITE: Yeah. If they would offer, you know, turnarounds but, like right now, they would pay flights from say Calgary or Edmonton, but they don't want to look at us down here east. They'd rather bring in TFW's because the government are going to subsidise half the wages.

MG: How have you... If you don't mind me asking? I mean, given all of that, you mentioned that your wife is just working part time as a clerk. How difficult is it to make ends meet?

STEVE WHITE: Oh, very difficult. Like it's... When the pandemic hit the government came in with this employment insurance. You only needed 120 hours, and that year I managed to hook one shut down in [inaudible] and I got 21 days. I just made the cut for 210 hours or something like that. That's what I got. And if it wasn't for that, I don't know what I would have done.

MG: That's pretty tight.

STEVE WHITE: It's pretty tight.

MG: So when you hear people say that Bay du Nord, given the size of it, will yes, produce a lot of oil and produce those jobs at some point in time. But that now is not the time to be investing in a project like this because of climate change and the need to transition out of oil and gas. What do you say to opponents?

STEVE WHITE: Well, I like what Minister Parsons said. They're like, You can't... You can't just switch and fade out everything. Especially now, when the pandemic hit, like tradesmen like me we're struggling to work. So I mean, you can't just say that. And this project is, you know, it's fairly clean compared to like your oilsands. And it far times less emissions then your average Canadian oil and gas projects, and it's 10 times less than oilsands. So I think, if we're going to cut down emissions. I think we should start with oilsands first and foremost.

MG: I wish you the best of luck and I hope you land something soon. In the meantime, it's good to talk to you, Steve. Thank you very much.

STEVE WHITE: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Take care. Steve White is an unemployed pipefitter in the oil and gas industry, and we reached him this morning in Victoria, Newfoundland. Angela Carter is a member of the Newfoundland and Labrador government's Net-Zero Advisory Council. She's also an associate professor in the Department of Political Science at the University of Waterloo, and she is in Conception Bay, Newfoundland. Angela, good morning to you.

ANGELA CARTER: Good morning, Matt. Thanks for having me back again.

MG: Thanks for coming back. You just heard from Steve White. He's looking for work. He can't find any work, and he sees a project like this. I mean, has questions about the, you know, the immediate jobs, but really does see this as a bit of a lifeline. What do you say to people like Steve?

ANGELA CARTER: I really valued hearing what Mr. White had to say. Actually, my father was a plumber and a pipefitter too, and the things that Mr. White said that are, you know, are happening to him and his family. Those are the same conversations that are around the supper table for me too. All of the men in my family are tradespeople, and they've all worked at one time and another in the oil sector. And so Mr. White's story and the distress that he's feeling is really real. And I mean, I'd like to pick up on a couple of things that he said. He mentioned, we heard this before. You know, these promises of jobs from the oil sector in Newfoundland and Labrador that never come true. Promises that just never, never come to reality. And we've certainly seen this in the last year or so. In Newfoundland and Labrador, a half a billion dollars in subsidies was offered to the oil sector to kickstart it. You know, after the pandemic and there were no job guarantees associated with those subsidies.

MG: This is what Danny Williams used to talk about being masters of our own destiny.

ANGELA CARTER: Our own destiny. Exactly. But we're not right. So oil was supposed to bring us prosperity, and we've been producing oil since 1997, and we're still in a situation where people like Mr. White and men in my family are underemployed or don't have employment. It's very precarious. So the thing about jobs and the oil sector, what we know from the data, not from what the oil sector tells us or governments that are looking to try to, you know, short term cash in. But the actual numbers tell us that there are very, very few jobs in the oil sector in Canada and in Newfoundland and Labrador, it's only about 1.4 percent of total employment. What's worse than that, though, is that firms constantly shed workers as a cost savings measure. So between, you know, leading up to the pandemic, for those five or 10 years before the pandemic, oil firms in Canada just cut loose about 25,000 oil workers. So these are people like Mr. White and people like the man in my family, too. So what we're seeing, though, on the flip side of this is that and here I'm talking about Jim Stanford's research on this. Between 2014 and 2019 for every single job that was lost in the fossil fuel sector, 42 new jobs were created in other sectors. And by the data that we have from Clean Energy Canada, for example, we know that fossil fuel employment is declining, while employment in clean energy... in the clean energy sectors or renewables. As well as efficiency jobs, energy efficiency jobs, those are increasing and more than making up for those job losses. And so this is why tradespeople across Canada are pressing governments for a just transition to get us out of this cycle of words, empty words about jobs coming from oil, but you know, families still being on that knife's edge.

MG: Let me ask you about how this project is being framed. You heard the energy minister talk about how this will provide what he calls responsible lower carbon oil. The environment minister, the federal environment minister, Steven Guilbeault, has said that he's confident that this country's climate plan will reduce emissions from oil and gas sector even if we increase production. Does that add up to you?

ANGELA CARTER: This is utterly misleading. It is false. It is dishonest. And we know the difference. And I'm shocked actually and devastated that we can get on Monday, a week ago today. We have global scientists saying we are in an urgent situation where we need to wind down emissions that requires reducing oil and gas extraction, production, consumption. We have to do this or we are endangering our futures and the future for our kids. And then two days later, we have this approval by the federal government to add yet more oil. Right. So this is... We're throwing fuel on the climate fire with every single one of these projects. And this cannot be. It is not part of a transition. Logically, of course, it's not because all of this is toward the end of increasing oil and gas production, which is the exact opposite direction that we need to go to have a shot at, some shot at climate stability, even though in some ways we're well past that point. And the federal environment minister, Minister Guilbeault, he knows this. But political compromise has been made in this case, and it's very... It's a very, very sad.

MG: You'll hear that argument and you heard it already this morning that in the lead up to the transition, oil and gas is going to come from somewhere. And if the world is still going to be using fossil fuels even in a declining rate, why not produce it here rather than in a country like Saudi Arabia?

ANGELA CARTER: Well, OK, so there's... There are several pieces there. The first piece, though, is that every country, every jurisdiction believes their oil is good and clean and ethical, and therefore they have a right to extract it. But if we follow that logic to its end, we are cooking. We will cook the planet because we already know... And this is from the global science that our existing projects right now for oil and gas already are taking us beyond what is safe for climate. We cannot add any additional projects at this point in time. The end game here is that everybody has got to wind down. All current producers have got to wind down, not turn off the taps, but a managed, gradual decrease in production by about four percent a year. At the same time, if we're serious about ethics, if that's really what we're paying attention to, there is some excellent research that's being produced on equity in that wind down. How do we do it so that it's fair? And every single piece of that research indicates that countries like Canada, which have the capacity and overall on average less dependence on fossil fuels. They are the countries that have to move first in that wind down. That's us. And this is why Canada keeps getting a finger pointed at it because we have a huge production of oil and gas and we are not making an effort to wind it down. In fact, what we're doing both provincially here in Newfoundland and Labrador, but also federally, is we are expanding production. We are blowing the global carbon budget right out of the water and we're doing it for these really short term and, you know, short term gains. And only short term gains for some, very limited segments of the population are actually benefiting.

MG: Just in the last couple of minutes that we have. What position is the province in to make a transition to clean energy? The 15 year moratorium on wind farms has been lifted and asked, you know how far that puts the province back in terms of not developing that industry. From your perspective where is your province at when it comes to moving toward clean energy?

ANGELA CARTER: So we do have some large clean energy projects, although those are extremely contentious for good reasons, so mega hydro. But other than that, we do not have a transition plan here. And so this is what I think is quite disingenuous about how this discussion around Bay du Nord has happened because, you know, ministers and Premier Furey are saying that we're going to use oil to get off oil. But there is no plan to do that. There is no just transition fund. There is no idea for how people like Mr. White are going to be able to be supported to take advantage of new jobs from renewable energy. There's no ongoing debate with the labour community here to make this happen. So we are really delayed in this because we spent the last 25 years in this province going just in one narrow hallway of just oil. Now we know that is an enormous climate risk. It's also an enormous economic risk, because what we know from a global energy transition that's unfolding now is that the more that you are focussed on extracting oil and gas, the more you're opening your economy to be stranded, stranded assets that will not have value as the global community winds down as it must if we're going to have any chance at climate stability. So I am very weary of folks who tell us that this oil is clean oil or ethical oil. This is like when Big Tobacco told us that cigarettes were good for us or they said, You know, we're going to add some filters to our cigarettes. And so here then you can smoke more. The outcome is still cancer, right? So this might be somehow, lower emitting project, but it is still when you calculate all the way through enormous emissions that we do not have space for at this moment of climate crisis.

MG: Angela, good to speak with you again. Thank you very much.

ANGELA CARTER: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Angela Carter, member of the Newfoundland and Labrador government's Net-Zero Advisory Council, associate professor in the Department of Political Science at the University of Waterloo and the author of Fossilized: Environmental Policy in Canada's Petro Provinces. She was in Conception Bay, Newfoundland. Your thoughts on this, welcome. Email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. Coming up after your regional update, many of us picked up a new hobby during the pandemic. Maybe baking bread. Maybe pickleball. For some, it was writing poetry. We'll talk about poetry during the pandemic. Coming up in 90 seconds.

How a new poetry collection illustrates varied experiences of the pandemic

Guests: David Hassler and Naomi Shihab Nye

MG: Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Last week, as the federal government unveiled its new budget, we heard from Canadians across this country about how they're struggling to make ends meet. From the rising cost of food to an unattainable housing market. Many of you listening wanted to share your own experiences of what we've been calling the affordability crisis. The Current senior producer Karin Marley is here with some of your mail. Karin, good morning.

KARIN MARLEY: Good morning. We heard from so many listeners frustrated with the cost of living. Let's start with this from Anne Marie Allen. She writes. I'm 68. I have to work part time because my health does not permit me to work full time. My pension covers only my rent, and that is only because I've lived here for 20 years. If I had to move, I would more than likely be homeless. The few dollars I make in my 30 hours a month at a minimum wage job only pay for basic essentials such as my share of the cost of prescriptions. After a lifetime of working, this is not how I expected to live out my life.

MG: A listener in Montreal writes: I am a young woman living with multiple sclerosis and have so much student debt from years of post-secondary studies. I am terrified of how I'll be able to afford living in the future when I'm already paycheque to paycheque. Forget about trying to buy a home, retirement fund impossible. I've stayed in relationships longer than desired because I simply couldn't find an apartment that I could afford. I'm even considering moving to an entirely different country that has lower cost of living. But who knows? I guess I find it hard to believe that at my age, I'd be handling this much pressure and so much stress about the future. Life looks so different from the golden years of my grandparents.

KARIN MARLEY: Shoshana Magill also says she never imagined she would find herself in her situation, she writes. Raised four children as a single parent. No money to save for retirement, then lost the only good paying job at 61. I finally found a part time job, moved to a lovely townhouse and just made ends meet by having a border. Then the landlord sold it for triple what he paid for it and I scrambled. Now, at 73, I have no hope of retirement. I maintain a huge garden at a community space so I can eat well in the summer and freeze to help during the winter. No vacations, no savings. I'm just surviving. I just hope my health lasts so I can continue to work.

MG: We also heard from a 63 year old woman who has MS, and she says: I'm alone and have no family. Most of my income goes to paying rent. I've cut everything out, including buying the odd chocolate bar. I don't have any money for my retirement. I can only imagine things will get worse as I'll get even less money after I'm 65. Why doesn't the government help older, sick Canadians more? The government knows we are in one of the most disadvantaged groups. As it stands, I can't even afford my own funeral.

KARIN MARLEY: From Vancouver, Erika Tufano told us about a creative approach to her housing dilemma. Last year, at 56, I sold everything I own, left my apartment of 23 years and bought an ambulance and converted it to a liveable home. But now that diesel is so expensive, I can't even travel around. Health issues made my work unmanageable during the pandemic. I had hoped my savings and RRSP would stretch to retirement. Nope. I'll have to get a part time job soon as full time is not doable for me. The cost of living is outrageous for everyone except the rich.

MG: Jo Hansen also wrote from Vancouver. Jo says: In 1989, my husband and I bought our house with my mom and sister. All my adult children live here, too. More than 10 years ago, my nephew moved in as well. About four years ago, my youngest son's girlfriend moved in. Our house is not very big, but somehow we make it work for us. Of course, a couple of my kids would like their own home, but in Vancouver, that is so difficult. They each pay $450 a month. Some of my friends make fun of us for our three refrigerators and deep freezer. But when there are eight for dinner every night, it's necessary.

KARIN MARLEY: And finally, Jennie Brickwood writes this from Abbotsford, B.C. I am a single mom with two kids under 11. We had to sell our family home due to separation. I have a down payment but can't afford to buy a place because I only make $53,000 a year. This income supported my family only five years ago. Currently, it won't even pay rent and utilities. I cry a lot. I'm a parent who is responsible for the welfare of my children, and I can't afford their welfare. I work full time with a government job and get to choose between food and shelter.

MG: Thank you to all of you who wrote those powerful stories, and if you'd like to share your story about anything you hear on this program, including the cost of living. Get in touch. You can email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. Thank you, Karin.

KARIN MARLEY: You're welcome.

MG: Karin Marley, senior producer here at The Current. My name is Matt Galloway and this is indeed The Current on CBC Radio One.

[Music: piano instrumental]

MARY ELLEN: Dear vaccine. For too long, I have been a goldfish circling a small bowl. A goose hissing at danger near my brood. A spider fretting. My carefully spun webs rend in the storm. At midnight, I'm a mosquito playing vibrato on the e-string. Alone, wailing for those I cannot touch. I dwell, strange woods, twitchy. Vaccine, please bring me back to my anthropoid self. A woman who wakes without dread to a day rife with possibility.

MG: Mary Ellen Chon of Oakville, Ontario, wrote that ode to the COVID-19 vaccine after she heard an interview on this program. That interview was when I first spoke with David Hassler. He was running something called the global vaccine poem, asking members of the public to contribute to their poetry. Here again is Mary Ellen describing what it's like for her to express her feelings through verse.

MARY ELLEN: I think the thing I love about, especially writing poetry, is just the chance to sort of sit down and be still and kind of pay attention to my own experience. It feels like when I do that, that I'm kind of in this room, this big room where I can move around and play and kind of push against the edges of that experience. And I guess sometimes for me in that process, there's also a feeling of like catharsis of seeing things and in a new way or sort of a release when it's something I'm worried about or troubled about. Or frankly, I'd kind of describe it as maybe the flow that an athlete would feel, or it's kind of the closest thing I experience to praying.

MG: Her poem and hundreds of others are now published in a book called, Dear Vaccine: Global Voices Speak to the Pandemic. David Hassler, director of the Wick Poetry Centre at Kent State University in Ohio, is one of the editors, as is the American poet Naomi Shihab Nye, whose own poem about the vaccine provided the inspiration for this project, and they are both with us now. Good morning.

BOTH: Good morning.

MG: Naomi. What is it like to hear Mary Ellen talk about how she expresses herself through poetry?

NAOMI SHIHAB NYE: I absolutely have goosebumps to hear her voice saying that poem and then her beautiful comment about being in a room when she writes when she expresses. It just hit me that when we write poems, it's as if we're listening to a very beloved, precious radio program or music that we love. And we're in a capsule of comfort somehow, no matter what else has been going on and what a gift that is, I was just taken away by her poem.

MG: David, how did this whole project begin? Just briefly remind us of that.

DAVID HASSLER: This project began with a phone call from a dear friend of mine and colleague Tyler Meyer, the executive director at the University of Arizona Poetry Centre, who had been on a call, a statewide call with arts agencies in Arizona to try to figure out how the arts could come to provide help and aid in the effort, the public health effort of vaccination. Tyler thought of the work that we've been doing it with poetry centre, with our travelling stanzas and interactive digital, expressive writing tools. So he called me up and it took me about a nanosecond to say, My goodness, let's do this together. And we thought of providing this interactive website, Global Vaccine Poem, to invite people to share their voice in response to Naomi's beautiful model poem, Dear Vaccine. And to add their voice to the growing gallery page of submissions which grew and grew to come from all over the world. 118 countries.

MG: Naomi, where did the idea for the model poem come from?

NAOMI SHIHAB NYE: Well, David and Tyler, my dear old friends, phoned me up and they told me about their idea, and I started writing the poem immediately while we were on the telephone. It seemed as if it was speaking to a collective need of all of us to get to a better movement, a better place, and to celebrate this vaccine that was just upon us.

MG: Where did the contributions for this project that are now collected in this book, Naomi, come from? I mean, it's a wide swath, but it's also... I mean, part of the key to this is that these are largely, "amateur poets".

NAOMI SHIHAB NYE: Well, it's quite a mixture of people. Many of the people in the book are advanced in their fields, whatever their fields are, but they were welcomed to the hospitable website that David created at Wick Poetry Centre, and they wanted to add their voice to the anthem. And it wasn't hard to spread the word. You know, you would tell one person they would tell a couple of people, and before we knew it, we had more than 2000 and then we kept going back to see what was added. It was, as I kept calling it, a positive contagion.

MG: Why do you think people leaned into that positive contagion, Naomi?

NAOMI SHIHAB NYE: Well, we'd all been lonely. We'd been isolated. We'd been missing our normal lives. I was just on my first flying trip two days ago, and I asked the big group at my workshop how many of your lives were impacted in a very difficult way by COVID. Almost every hand went up. We've never experienced anything like this in our lifetimes where so many people's lives changed and we needed to sing together, to find each other again, to say something about what we'd been through. And I think the entries in the book ultimately express the whole gamut of what we've all been through.

MG: Have a listen to another one of the Canadian contributors who had a very specific reason for wanting to write a poem for this project.

ERIN: What motivated me to submit something to this project was my grandmother. She was a very creative person. She was an English teacher for many years, and she also played the piano every day up until the day she died. She wrote a lot of poems. She would actually write one pretty much for any family gathering, any holiday, any special occasion. She could find any excuse she could get. She'd be writing and performing a poem, she performed them too. So when I saw people contributing to this project, this historical moment for poetry, I knew I wanted to be a part of it in honour of my grandmother. She had actually passed away in the summer of 2020. She didn't die of COVID, but the circumstances in the hospitals at the time prevented us from seeing her in her last days. So I knew that I wanted to honour her in some way, and by contributing to this project, I think I've done that.

[Music: Piano instrumental]

ERIN: So my name is Erin Kearney, I'm from Kitchener, Ontario, and this is my poem. Dear Vaccine, you came too late for my grandmother. But just in time for my nephew. Thank you for letting me finally hold him and I can feel her life anew.

MG: Naomi Shihab Nye, there's a bittersweet element to that poem.

NAOMI SHIHAB NYE: Or there is, I have goosebumps again, the continuance. There we have it, the chain of humanity. I mean, that's what poetry does. It helps us feel connected to the threaded humanity in the world. And you know, we grieve for things that are so far away and we care about the people we've never met. And hearing these voices is just stunning.

MG: David, Erin talked about the idea of a historical record. We're still living through this moment much as we might want it to be over and done with. The pandemic, as they say, is not done with us. So we're still in this. But why is it important, even in the midst of this, to have a historical record through poetry of the feelings that we are living through?

DAVID HASSLER: Well, you know, it is a living document. And I just approved two new entries submitted to the website yesterday morning from South Carolina and I believe from Georgia. And I think that poetry offers us that room, that pause in our life, that space to hold complex and contradictory feelings. And I think this becomes a record of the very human experience of this pandemic in the way that poetry is uniquely suited to give voice to connecting the emotions with our memory, with our intellectual thoughts. I had a student once who watched... We played a video from YouTube of a performance poet and she said, kind of like an aha moment. She said, Oh, I feel like that humanizes our humanity. And you know, I think this project is precisely... It's a revelation to acknowledge we need to humanize. It's not something we take for granted. And this idea of sharing your voice and feeling that this connection with others has offered people this chance to feel their anthropoid selves in this real historical moment. Both grief and praise are both expressions of love, of our connection with one another. So these, in essence, can be love poems to each other and to grandmothers, and to a larger sense of a collective.

MG: You also had your own aha moment. Tell me about what you found out about your own family history as you're putting together a project like this in the midst of a global pandemic.

DAVID HASSLER: Well, working at Kent State University, I actually grew up in this town during the time of the traumatic shootings in 1970, May 4th, during the Vietnam War protests. Four students were shot and killed, nine injured, and one of the hallmarks of trauma is silencing. As Jonathan Shea points out. You know, a clinical psychologist who wrote about the Vietnam War veterans, PTSD. And I learnt in the course of this project that my own great grandmother, my grandfather's mother on my mother's side died in 1918 during that flu pandemic. But nobody spoke about it. He was two years old. He was a child, grew up with a stepmother and his father, and that was not spoken about. And what I've often read about the 1918 flu is we moved into the roaring 20s, to drink and party and did not speak and to metabolise and process what was a truly traumatic and horrific experience, collective experience. So I think Naomi and Tyler and I had the hopes that this project would help us give voice or, as Jonathan Shea describes it, to communalize our trauma. And I think that's one of the wonderful roles of art and artists since the beginning of time is to help communities come together and process and or metabolise the grief and what they've gone through.

MG: There are a number of poems in this collection that are longing for the vaccine, but also poems that celebrate getting the vaccine, and Naomi, you write in the introduction about your own experience in getting the shot. What was that like?

NAOMI SHIHAB NYE: Well, we had a flurry of singing in the car. My 93 year old at the time, mother was with us, my husband and my mother, and we... I began singing in the car, an old Girl Scout Camp Fire song, I don't think I'd even thought of this song in 50 years. And my mother joined in, in harmony and I realised, Wow, this is all coming from a very deep place in us. Some essential hope for a good time again. And it was ecstatic, I would say, and I felt very close to the person who vaccinated us. I kept his picture, I took his picture, I kept it near me. I got my second vaccine from the same guy. There was just a sense of tenderness and intimacy that was happening. I felt the celebrity of hope, of being in our precious world together again.

MG: What was the song you were singing in the car?

NAOMI SHIHAB NYE: Well, it was something, you know, I can't even conjure it up right now because it was something I hadn't thought about. But it was. It was like, Hey, ho going down to the river... Or I can't even... We were going to the river of the vaccine. I can't even tell you.

DAVID HASSLER: You say in the book, you felt like singing, and that's the thing that came to mind?

NAOMI SHIHAB NYE: Yes, a childhood song of joy. When you're at camp, which is not a, you know, it's a rare experience to be at camp, a special time. And we'd all been, you know, tied into our homes for one year at that point. So the doors were opening, the windows were opening.

MG: Not everyone felt the same way about this vaccine and that comes up in these contributions as well. Take a listen to another one of the Canadian contributors to this book.

JOANNE: My name is Joanne, and I live in Slocan, British Columbia. And this is my Dear Vaccine poem. I wonder why my thrift store top has a fake zipper for a pocket decoration. The pocket is sewn shut. I wonder why my friend of 30 years won't get vaccinated. I can return the top. But what do I do with my friend? I was online and I saw the Dear Vaccine poem invitation and I had just had some... an interesting experience with a friend about the vaccine discussion. The conversation came up about getting vaccinated, and I was completely flabbergasted and somewhat bewildered by the opinion of somebody who I thought I knew really well had a completely different opinion than I did about getting vaccinated. I think it was about a year ago or longer. Now, I feel that this poem makes me feel a bit uncomfortable because I feel that I totally can't do anything with my friend. I can't force a person to change their mind, and I don't even know if that's what I was going for there, but I felt sad and confused. I did wonder, like, did this complete difference of opinion that we have on this topic, point to some big underlying difference that I hadn't seen for the last 30 years? Or was this a reflection on the quality of our friendship? And for me, the issue is still unresolved in my head.

MG: David, are you surprised? Were you surprised when it became clear... this comes out of a moment where people are looking forward to the vaccines, but when it became clear that not everybody was so excited about the shot?

DAVID HASSLER: Well, we launched this project literally almost just one year ago at the very, very end of March, beginning of April of 2021. And with great hope and optimism and the belief that the Global Vaccine Poem Project would be combining advocacy with poetry. And we actually designed postcards that were terrible and write-able so that you could... That we would hand out at mass vaccination sites in San Antonio and in northeast Ohio and in Tucson, Arizona. You know, simply take a card, read Naomi's beautiful model poem and you've just had your shot. Now, pause and write a reflection. Mail it back to us or type it into the website. It quickly... And so that optimism, that sense of advocacy. I think now, as I reflect back over the course of the year, I still feel an optimism with this project. Perhaps more with a sense of agency. To speak, as Ursula Le Guin says, is an action, and we're offering this opportunity for people to share their stories and to connect with one another. Maybe a less ambitious sense of optimism and advocacy, but we just were notified, the Kent State press from an agency in South Carolina that wants to use poems from this website for a public service announcement to encourage parents to vaccinate their children. We're excited to see how they design and roll this out, and we will promote it on the website. Maybe it rekindles this notion of maybe the book and the conversations around it will sort of pick up on this initial belief that we could try to help change people's minds and to promote what we see is for the greater public health. The public good.

MG: Naomi, did you hear much of that scepticism through the contributions that you got?

NAOMI SHIHAB NYE: I heard some people talking about it, but you know, I was shocked. I just thought of it as a health issue the whole time. I couldn't wrap my mind around this sort of bullying, oppositional attitude. I'm not going to do anything because the government thinks it's a good idea because the National Health Organisation thinks it's a good idea. Now, granted, I have had friends die of cancer because they resisted all medical treatment because they didn't believe in anything in the medical world. And, you know, I can't get my mind around that either. Why not take a try if somebody is an expert in the field and saying this is going to improve your chances? So I guess what I didn't see was that it would become a political dividing line. And remember, I live in Texas, so it's a state with two very kind of... two different worlds in it.

MG: Is there a role that art can play, that poetry can play in helping to bridge that divide? I mean, it takes a lot of politics in some ways, but when you speak about using art as a tool to help create a sense of community, to help people kind of metabolise the feelings that they have. What is the place of art in that divide?

NAOMI SHIHAB NYE: Well, hopefully art engages us and stirs up some kind of recognition or larger understanding. Art is not asking for our votes. It's not demanding anything of us. It's just saying, Well, this is what I think. Here's my... This is how it felt to me. This is what it looked like. And maybe people, you know, soften a bit or calm down in their resistances. That's what I would hope. I've always felt as if art made me a bigger, better person, even if I didn't utterly understand it, but I felt better for being in its company. And I hope these beautiful writings of so many people from all over the world kind of stir a sense of human empathy like, Oh yeah, it would be nice to hold those new babies, or I would like to feel more comfortable standing in a line again. Why not?

MG: David?

DAVID HASSLER: Oh, absolutely. I think of a beautiful quote from Parker J. Palmer, in which he says, we have an opportunity for our hearts to break open to each other, not apart. And in these divisive times, art precisely can help us share, you know, give expression to a shared common experience of grief or of praise of the human experience to break our hearts open to one another and not feel isolated and alone, and they feel our hearts broken apart. So, you know, I think also... Art... We have another project called Poets for Science, founded by Jane Hirshfield, a poet in California, and she has a beautiful quote which we have on that website. The microscope and the metaphor are both instruments of discovery. So, you know this idea of understanding one another and being open, opening up to one another. Art does that for us. I think of a beautiful prose poem by Naomi in which she talks about being young and having the teacher put her poem on the wall of the classroom and a student walking up to her, later saying, Aha, that's what I wanted to say. You know, that's what I could have said. So I really think that art is... Does bring us... Opens us to each other. And that's my hope that we continue to do that work as we process the complex feelings of this pandemic and the grief and the sense of isolation that we all feel.

MG: It'll be really interesting to go back and look at these poems in years ahead when we are finally, he said, hopefully out of this pandemic. In the meantime, the real time snapshot of what we're living through is fascinating. It's great to talk to you both. Thank you very much.

NAOMI SHIHAB NYE: Thank you so much for your time.

DAVID HASSLER: Thank you.

MG: David Hassler is director of the Wick Poetry Centre at Kent State University. Naomi Shihab Nye is the American Poetry Foundation's Young People's Poet Laureate, and they are co-editors of a new book called: Dear Vaccine: Global Voices Speak to the Pandemic. That is The Current for this Monday. Coming up next on CBC Radio One, it's Q. There are two adaptations of Miriam Toews' novels coming out on the big screen this year. The first is just about to appear. It is the adaptation of a great book, "Oh My Puny Sorrows" and the Canadian Actors Sarah Gadon and Alison Pill talk about playing sisters in the adaptation of that book. That's coming up in just a moment on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway, thanks for listening to The Current. I'll see you tomorrow.

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