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The Current Transcript for December 5, 2022

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

I would fall asleep for maybe an hour or two and I would wake up completely panicked. Totally revved. Heart beating. I'm sweating. It's like really a whole other world.

MATT GALLOWAY: Jamie Robinson was one of many new mothers who was prescribed the drug Domperidone to help with breastfeeding. The problem is that no country has approved that drug as a lactation aid, and many mothers are being given it at a significantly higher dosage than even the manufacturer recommends. Coming up, a CBC investigation into those prescriptions and the alarming side effects that many women are reporting after taking Domperidone. That's in 30 minutes. Also this morning, your letters on the crisis in children's hospitals across this country, something that we saw firsthand at Toronto's Hospital for Sick Children last month. And later.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Alexa, reheat pasta.

ALEXA: Reheating pasta.

VOICE 1: It's cool, right?

VOICE 2: Yeah. I didn't know you guys have Alexa in the microwave.

VOICE 1: Yeah, I'm putting her in a lot of stuff now.

MG: Alexa and other voice activated assistants were seen as the future of technology a few years back. Maybe not so much now with Amazon losing billions on the devices in an hour, the promise of talking to a computer, why that hasn't fully worked out. But how voice assistants are actually helping many people. We start, though, in Winnipeg and a plea for action on missing and murdered indigenous women and girls. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Manitoba murders show situation has gotten worse for Indigenous women, says advocate

Guests: Chief Kyra Wilson, Sandra DeLaronde

SOUNDCLIP

My mom was Morgan Harris, and she was a great person. And I want her to be remembered as how she was when she was younger and not how she was when she went missing. And I think it's sad that time and time again that we have to keep coming here to gather for sad circumstances like this when our family members go missing and it shouldn't have to be that way. There were four women found in those women and families. They were mothers. They were cousins, sisters, and they didn't deserve that. And this search isn't done yet because we're still looking. And that's not fair. And I don't think we should give up. I want her to be remembered as happy go lucky as she was. She was silly. She was fun. People loved to be around her. When we were searching for her, there wasn't a single person that did not know who she was and no one had a bad thing to say. Everyone was saddened by their loss.

MG: That's Cambria Harris speaking at a vigil in Winnipeg after a nine month search for her mother last week when police announced that they believe Morgan Harris is one of four indigenous women murdered by one man.

SOUNDCLIP

There comes a point where we have to say that this needs to stop because it's getting ridiculous, like this is a genocide happening to our indigenous women. We are going missing left and right and I'm not going to be next. My daughter is not going to be next. And it's sad. Something needs to change.

MG: Jeremy Skibicki has been charged with first degree murder in connexion with the deaths. Rebecca Contoi's was remains were found in May. The bodies of Mercedes Myron, another woman who was still unidentified and Canberra's mother, Morgan Harris, have not been found. Both Morgan and Mercedes were from a Long Plain first nation in south central Manitoba. Kyra Wilson is that First Nations chief? Chief Wilson, good morning.

CHIEF KYRA WILSON: Good morning.

MG: I'm sorry for what your community is going through.

CHIEF KYRA WILSON: Thank you. I appreciate that.

MG: How is your community doing? How would you describe the mood in the community right now?

CHIEF KYRA WILSON: It's definitely a very sad time for our community. You know, we are dealing with a big loss in the community. Such tragic news last week and and it's just really been a range of emotions. You know, we, you know, are one day feeling sad. And, you know, even this my own personal experience that, you know, one day you're sad, the next day you're angry. And it's just been a really tough time for everybody.

MG: What is it that you can offer your community now in terms of support?

CHIEF KYRA WILSON: So right now what we have been focussing on is mental health supports as well as the cultural supports or religious supports. So just trying to focus on the wellness of every community member of all of our families and whatever that might look like. That's been the priority.

MG: What does the community need right now?

CHIEF KYRA WILSON: We need so many different things. We need supports and services in the community and we need the federal and provincial governments to acknowledge, you know, the genocide that is happening when it comes to targeting indigenous women and girls and two spirit. You know, I am heading to Ottawa this week to meet with all of the leadership cross country first nations leadership and the federal government. So that is going to be the priority this week. And the focus for myself and I and I do believe for a lot of other leaders and having that conversation on the immediate needs for First Nations women and girls, and two spirit.

MG: How much trust do you have in law enforcement to keep your community safe right now?

CHIEF KYRA WILSON: Minimal.

MG: Minimal.

CHIEF KYRA WILSON: Yeah.

MG: Can can you tell me more about that and why you would use that word?

CHIEF KYRA WILSON: Oh, we were just dealing with so many different issues on a daily basis when it comes to the safety of our community. And we have so many different issues when it comes to dealing with law enforcement, whether that's, you know, our First Nations police like the service itself as an organisation, we have the RCMP off reserve membership deal with city police, you know, so when we look at like supports and services such as response times or even the acknowledgement of how important we are as human beings, sometimes that is overlooked. So it's very frustrating when we're always having to shout, Oh, look at us, we are people too. You need to focus on the seriousness of what's happening right now across the country when it comes to missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and to spirit.

MG: Are you heard from the community as well? I mean, the grandmother of Mercedes Myron has said we need to try to get to closure. We need to try to find her body that they want police to search a Winnipeg landfill for that. Is that I mean, those sorts of actions, would that help address some of the pain that the community is going through right now if police were to take those steps?

CHIEF KYRA WILSON: Well, and that's the thing I don't understand is that you have the chief of police saying that he believes that, you know, the remains of those women are in the landfill, the landfill. But he is not seeing a search any time right now because they don't know where to start. Too much time has passed. And that's crazy to me, because how can you not start a search if you think that human remains are located no matter how big or how small it is? You know, this is important to figure out, you know, the next steps to to search for these women. Like it's a very simple solution. You start somewhere just because it's too big. You take one step at a time and you just do it. And right now, the Winnipeg police are saying that they are not going to do it.

MG: You talked about anger and we heard that anger in the words of Cambria Harris They're talking about these murders of indigenous women keep happening that something needs to change. Why is that? We're going to speak more in just a moment about about the larger picture. And in the wake of the report into missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, the action plan that was put out, the actions that have been called for from the federal government. But in light of all of that, why does this continue to happen, do you think?

CHIEF KYRA WILSON: It's just inaction from all levels of government, law enforcement. I mean, there are some individuals that are doing what they're supposed to be doing. But when I was talking to, you know, federal government yesterday, some of the employees have reached out and then really grateful for that. But when we look at the 231 calls to justice, you know, the federal government had identified in 2020 that they would be spending $724.1 million on missing and murdered indigenous women, girls and to spirit. And so far, they have only spent 12 million. So what that is telling me is that this is not important and that's an unfortunate reality. And you see that across the board when it comes to indigenous women and girls and to spirit that many different groups of people are not acknowledging that our women are important and they are human beings.

MG: What do you say to your community in the face of that? In the face of feeling as though the protection of members of their community is an important and that members of the community, in your words, aren't important.

CHIEF KYRA WILSON: Well, my community is important to me. Our families are important to me. And I will do everything that I can to insure for their safety and that they do feel important, that they are acknowledged. And I will make sure that my voice is loud enough for everyone to hear it about what is needed when it comes to our communities and when it comes to our indigenous women and girls and two spirit.

MG: Marc Millar The Federal Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, says that he will continue to address systemic issues that make Indigenous women vulnerable, but also acknowledged that there has been very little progress on the Federal Government action plan. If you were to speak with him, what would you say to him directly?

CHIEF KYRA WILSON: I would just let him know that right now we have many First Nations communities, leaders, families that are looking at him right now to see what he is going to do to help. This issue of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and his spirit and that he needs to do something today. We are not going to sit back any longer and that they need to listen to what we've been saying for years, that we are important and we are not going to be ignored anymore.

MG: Do you feel the pain of your community will be recognised in this moment?

CHIEF KYRA WILSON: I hope so.

MG: I hope you're right. She feels and it's good to speak with you again. I'm sorry for what your community is going through, but I really do appreciate the time that you've taken to talk to us this morning. Thank you very much.

CHIEF KYRA WILSON: Thank you.

MG: Kyra Wilson is the chief of Long Plain First Nation in Manitoba. Sandra DeLaronde is the project lead of the missing and murdered Indigenous Women's Group Implementation Project in Manitoba. She's in Winnipeg. Sandra, good morning to you.

SANDRA DELARONDE: And Rodney, thank you for having me.

MG: Thanks. Thanks for being here. How much has changed to stop violence against? Indigenous women and girls, particularly in the wake. It's been three years to the chief's point since the release of the report by the National Enquiry. So how much has changed in that time particularly?

SANDRA DELARONDE: I think the situation has gotten worse. Otherwise, you know, we would not be here today. Remembering Rebecca while you work and Harris and Mercedes, Marion and Buffalo Girl, as the elders have chosen to recognise the force young woman who they believe is Indigenous. They've chosen to acknowledge her as Buffalo Girl as a name that was given by the elders of the Lodge. So this is the second time in recent years that we've had a serial killer in Manitoba, in Winnipeg, since the release of the report. So I think what the lack of action has said to the community, to society at large is that we don't matter. And that's shown time and time again in the number of women that go missing, the number of women that are murdered in Manitoba, but certainly across this country.

MG: And people have said that for years. People have said that for almost 50 years because you just commemorated the death of Helen Betty Osborne, young Cree woman who was murdered in 1971.

SANDRA DELARONDE: In 1971, 1971, and then with the Aboriginal Justice Enquiry in 1991, they have found that they determined that Helen Berry offspring would not have been murdered had she not been Aboriginal. And we see that is continuing to be the case on the recommendations of the Ageing Royal Commission and the National Enquiry into missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls and gender diverse people. Those recommendations have not been implemented, so of course, the rest of Canada is going to say 'I guess they don't matter. So without impunity, we can do what we want.'

MG: Why isn't that change happening? I mean, again, it's not just in the wake of of this tragedy, but for years. To your point, people have been calling for change. The chair of the National Family and Survivors Circle said it's a national shame. More hasn't been done. Why isn't change happening?

SANDRA DELARONDE: I can't answer that. You know, like, there, when situations like this occur, people turn to the Indigenous community for answers. Almost like, 'What is wrong with you people?' You know, 'How come this keeps happening to you?' But the fact is, since the Aboriginal Justice Enquiry in 1991, we've told Canada, we've told this country what is wrong and we've asked Canada to help in fixing the problem. And they haven't. You know, we value and know the importance of thoughts and prayers. But beyond those thoughts and prayers should be to create action and to take action. And that hasn't been done. We can have enquiries and reports to talk about the issue, but actually. Do something about it to actually provide a guaranteed liveable income for poor people and to provide safe spaces. Those are actions that can be taken and they're just not happening.

MG: And yet there is an action plan by the federal government. There's billions of dollars that's promised. And then the government acknowledges that there has been very little movement on on those ideas in the action plan.

SANDRA DELARONDE: Yeah. It's it's millions of dollars. We wish it would be billions of dollars. Millions, millions. And, you know, very little. Millions of dollars.

MG: Very little.

SANDRA DELARONDE: Very little millions of dollars. Given the scope of the of the, of the problem, you know? Projects and things are funded on a project basis. We know that it has taken, you know, 50 years to get here for sure. Longer than that. And I can say without reservation that it has taken since the time of the treaties where where Indigenous women have been marginalised, have been ghosted by governments. And like in my own history, my own family history, we had a woman at the time of the treaty making process. She went to the treaty table and was refused to sit. So the next year the next to the table that was convened. She, her son in law was the representing a community so that he could sit at the table. And at that point, they were allowed to sign into a treaty for addition. So we know that when we talk about the situation being genocide, that's where it started. So how do we you know on to you know the women be losing their status and then having to go to the U.N. to fight Canada to recognise their rights as Indigenous women, as First Nations women. Canada had to be forced to do that, forced to change the legislation. And here we are again, you know, and we think what could be different? What could be different now? What could Canada do beyond the resourcing is changed laws and recognise the genocide. How do you address the genocide, you change the Criminal Code to recognize the murder of Indigenous women as a hate crime?

MG: Well, let me ask you about that. Part of this is about language and how we talk about these crimes. And using words like genocide is one way. There's also the Grand Chief, Gerry Daniels of the Southern Chiefs Organisation has called for an investigation into the online presence of the man who's been charged with these murders. And that speaks to the issue of of how we talk about this. Take a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

I think that that's important, that hate crime and hate speech be clearly identified for what it is and called out for what it is, and there should be consequences for that. These are barriers that are real and they're creating a devaluation of indigenous people. And where we're being targeted are women. We're targeted in the sense that we have to move in a direction where that's treated very seriously, that there's a response in dealing with this going forward that is over and above what has happened in the past.

MG: We're just we only have a minute or so left. But if you use a phrase like a hate crime to describe that, what changes do you think?

SANDRA DELARONDE: Well we hope that that would be recognized under the Criminal Code and that that would be applied in all cases where the victim is an Indigenous woman in particular, because that's what we're fighting for, we're fighting for our lives. And I also want to say, you know, we talk about governments, but also corporate Canada has a responsibility to implement those 231 calls to justice in the situation with our four loved ones. And, you know, we do not want landfill, the landfill in Winnipeg to be the new burial ground for our women. We do not want landfills to be the burial ground for our women across this country. Corporate Canada, who have taken their resources from this country, has an obligation to support the recovery and the reclamation of space for indigenous women that values their lives and values their quality and contributions to Canada. They're not without blood on their hands.

MG: Sandra, I'm glad to talk to you this morning. Thank you very much.

SANDRA DELARONDE: Thank you.

MG: Sandra DeLaronde is the project lead of the missing and murdered Indigenous Women and Girls Implementation Project in Manitoba. She was in Winnipeg. If you require immediate emotional support in the wake of that conversation, you can speak with a counsellor toll free at the 24 seven missing and murdered Indigenous Women and girls support line. That number is 18444136649. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. The news is next. We're back in six minutes. My name is Matt Galloway. Stay with us.

Women report alarming side effects from drug prescribed to help with breastfeeding

Guests: Tara Carman, Karin Marley

MG: Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come. Lower the thermostat, turn off the lights, play the radio. Alexa can do it all. But despite her abilities, sales are dwindling. Look at the future of voice activated assistants in just under 30 minutes. But first, calls for a stronger warning on a drug that is prescribed to new moms millions of times a year.

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SOUNDCLIP

MOTHER: What is it? It'ss a lion. Roar.

CHILD: Roar.

MOTHER: Roar. Une etoile.

MG: That's Jamie Robinson and her daughter, Emma. They are at home in Montreal, reading on the couch. Sounds like a typical weekday evening, but just a few months ago, Jamie was afraid she may never have another moment like this with her baby. Eight months after giving birth. Jamie started experiencing depression and psychosis and lost the ability to take care of her daughter. She believes it was the side effect of a drug that she was taking to help her breastfeed. CBC's investigative team started looking into the drug. It's called Domperidone, and they heard similar stories from nine women in multiple countries. Tara Carman is a senior reporter with CBC's Investigative Unit and joins me now. And just a warning, this story does reference suicidal ideation. Tara, hello.

TARA CARMAN: Hello, Matt.

MG: Tell us about this drug.

TARA CARMAN: It's called Domperidone, and it's approved in Canada as an aid to speed up digestion. But one of its side effects is that it can induce lactation and is prescribed off label in Canada millions of times a year for this purpose. But we found it's regularly prescribed at doses several times higher than what Health Canada says is safe. And no country, including Canada, has approved it as a lactation aid. In fact, the U.S., FDA has banned it for any purpose because it's been linked to serious cardiac events.

MG: And so given all those warning signs and the fact that Health Canada has not approved it as a lactation aid, why did Jamie start taking it?

TARA CARMAN: Well, Jamie was desperate to breastfeed her daughter and it just three days postpartum, a midwife told her she need to supplement with formula.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMIE ROBINSON: At first it was just she's not getting enough milk. And then the midwife suggested, okay, in the short term, you should supplement with some formula because she's like really dehydrated and and then try and figure out like, what's going on more with, with the breastfeeding in general. And honestly, I felt like such a failure to me giving my daughter formula. And looking back, it's like I don't know why I bought into this messaging around breastfeeding as heavily as I did or what exactly was going on for me. But it just felt like such a big deal to not be exclusively breastfeeding her. And it was something that I think partly because like. I'm someone who really likes to like measure achievements that maybe this was one of the things I had in mind was that like, oh, this is a way I can see that I'm being a good mom.

MG: And so given that, what did Jamie do?

TARA CARMAN: Well, Jamie started working with a lactation consultant at the Herzl Goldfarb Breastfeeding Clinic in Montreal, and it was there that she was prescribed Domperidone to increase her milk supply and she didn't notice any change. But she was afraid to go off the medication in case her milk supply dropped further. But then when Emma turned seven months old, Jamie decided she wanted to stop taking the drug, and she had been warned by the clinic to taper off slowly so her milk supply wasn't disrupted.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMIE ROBINSON: I just didn't want to be on it anymore. But I also had said to myself, like, okay, you've done a great job. You breastfed her for this long, and now she's moving on to solid foods. I can drop this medication. I don't need to breastfeed anymore. And because I had no interest in whether or not my milk supply dried up, I didn't think to taper. I just thought, okay, they said, take it as long as you want to breastfeed. I'm done breastfeeding so I can just stop taking this medication. And I did. As the days passed, Jamie says she felt less and less like herself. I'm noticing small things and playing with my hair. I think I'm bumping into things more. Everything has this kind of a strange quality to it, where it was just like an underlying stress and feeling of like, this is not right. Like something is off here.

MG: So how long did that strange quality last?

TARA CARMAN: Things escalated quickly. Within a month, Jamie described feeling increasingly disconnected from her daughter and from reality.

SOUNDCLIP

JAMIE ROBINSON: You look at your child, you kind of have this this feeling, this like warmth that fills you up and it was gone. I did not have that experience at all anymore. The mental loops that my brain went through to try and make sense of that became increasingly dark. So I remember saying to my husband, like, Oh, I think our baby's learning to lie because her smile doesn't seem sincere, or having this reoccurring thought that she had been replaced, that this was not my baby, that this was maybe even a robot baby because there was no emotional engagement from my side and the emotions I rush into that space, the guilt, the feeling of panic. Like, am I a bad mom and my losing my mind? What's going on? And alongside all these, like, very difficult interactions with my daughter, mounting panic attacks out of nowhere, waking me up at night, having a thought that we'd be like, Oh, you should probably just end your life, though. You probably just kill yourself. It escalated to the point alongside the intrusive thoughts. I started having intrusive movements and I was start to hate myself in the face, which was just like embarrassing to talk about. And then at the same time it's like people need to understand. Like this was not in the realm of like I had anxiety. This was in the realm of like things have gotten completely out of control and I'm in a whole different space than I've ever been.

MG: This sounds terrifying.

TARA CARMAN: Yeah.

MG: How did she connect what she was going through and the emotions that she was feeling, what she was doing to weaning off of this drug. Domperidone.

TARA CARMAN: Well, Jamie told us she actually never had a panic attack before going off Domperidone. But during that withdrawal period she was having six or seven a day and she's never had one since she got the drug out of her system either. Now, the Hertzel Goldfarb Clinic, where Jamie was prescribed Domperidone, did not respond to a request for comment. But we did speak to Jamie's psychologist, Karen White, who saw her in a moment of crisis like she was describing shortly after she stopped taking the drug. And Karen White does have Jamie's permission to discuss her case with CBC. So that's clear. She saw Jamie just after Emma's birth, and she said Jamie had a normal level of anxiety for a first time parent, and she was surprised to see such a dramatic shift eight months later.

SOUNDCLIP

KAREN WHITE: She had been doing well. So people may experience a postpartum depression or anxiety, but it occurs partially because of the hormonal changes of giving birth. And so it tends to be sooner in her case, where she was doing fine and then very suddenly was so distressed and so anxious. I was really surprised by that. And I've seen - I've worked in hospitals, I've seen very severe postpartum depression and anxiety.

TARA CARMAN: And when Jamie mentioned she'd recently stopped taking a medication, it was white who made the connection. So she looked up Domperidone online and saw that it functions similar to an antipsychotic. And that's when she realised this could be the cause of Jamie's mental distress.

MG: We know about how common Domperidone is for breastfeeding mothers.

TARA CARMAN: Yeah, it's really hard to get a sense of that, Matt, because publicly available data in Canada doesn't include the reason a drug was prescribed. And as I mentioned, there is an authorised use of this drug for a completely different purpose. But what we do know from Health Canada was that there were 120 million prescriptions filled for it in 2020. And Health Canada has also issued three warnings about this drug, most recently in January of this year, because it's been shown to prolong the interval between heartbeats and is linked to sudden cardiac death. And regulators in both Canada and Europe and the drug's manufacturer say it should be prescribed at a maximum dose of 30 milligrams per day. For the shortest duration possible, only for gastrointestinal problems and never to anyone with a history of heart conditions.

SOUNDCLIP

JACK NEWMAN: I certainly don't mind increasing your domperidone to what our usual maximum dose is.

TARA CARMAN: But doctors routinely prescribe doses much higher. Chief amongst them, Dr. Jack Newman, who we just heard. Dr. Newman runs the International Breast Feeding Centre in Toronto, which is a go to resource for mothers hoping to breastfeed. And he sometimes prescribes as much as 160 milligrams per day. Now that's more than five times the limit set by Health Canada. And we asked him why he thinks that's safe.

SOUNDCLIP

JACK NEWMAN: Well, because it is. We've never had a mother have a cardiac arrest. And I'm talking about the thousands of mothers that we've treated over the years. The dose of Domperidone that Health Canada recommends, it's not a you must do this is useless. It's not going to work. And so we, with experience, know that three tablets three times a day and sometimes you go higher than that actually helps and it helps in the majority of mothers.

TARA CARMAN: Dr. Newman's research comes up frequently on [unintelligible] sites around the world. That's an organisation that supports breastfeeding parents with chapters in many major cities. The information about Domperidone on his website is also cited frequently in Facebook groups for mothers struggling to breastfeed. It was in one of these groups that Emily Matreal first learnt about Domperidone.

SOUNDCLIP

EMILY MATREAL: Ok, where's your whisk? And what do we do? Whisk, whisk, whisk and pour it out. All right. Can you whisk?

CONNOR: Yeah.

EMILY MATREAL: There you go. Stir it up. Should we put it in the oven?

CONNOR: Yeah.

EMILY MATREAL: Okay.

TARA CARMAN: So that's Emily baking with her son, Connor, at their home near Detroit, Michigan. And like Jamie, she struggled to produce enough breast milk. And faced with, like, a hungry, crying baby who was refusing to take a bottle. Emily went online looking for help. And one mom, Matt, recommended she tried Domperidone.

SOUNDCLIP

EMILY MATREAL: I didn't know how to find it because it wasn't available in the US. And that's when I saw that people were either getting it from overseas or getting it from a doctor in Canada. Dr. Newman. And I thought, Well, that sounds safe. I will reach out to the doctor and kind of see how this goes. So that's when I kind of reached out and established a consult through them.

MG: And so women in the States, just to be clear, are getting this drug through Canada.

TARA CARMAN: Yes, they are. And as I said, the FDA has banned Domperidone on citing the cardiac risks. But lots of American women still find ways to get it. And Newman says he doesn't agree with the FDA.

SOUNDCLIP

JACK NEWMAN: Well, the FDA has said a lot of rubbish in the years and they're wrong about Domperidone to say it's a particularly dangerous drug. I mean, you know, antibiotics can be dangerous, too.

TARA CARMAN: So Emily paid $100 and was able to get a virtual appointment with a lactation consultant at Newman's International Breastfeeding Centre in Toronto the next day. And the consultant presented her case to Newman, who prescribed Domperidone at 90 milligrams per day. The clinic sent the prescription to a pharmacy in Vancouver, which shipped the medication to Matreal's doorstep.

MG: And again, 90 milligrams day is what, three times as much as what Health Canada was recommending?

TARA CARMAN: Yes, it is. And that's where Dr. Newman typically starts his patients.

MG: Did it work for her?

TARA CARMAN: At first she didn't notice any change. So she went back to the lactation consultant. But then when the clinic upped the dose to 120 milligrams, Emily's milk supply increased. In fact, so much so that three months later she had an oversupply and decided to stop taking it.

MG: And so what happened when she went off of this drug?

TARA CARMAN: Well, Emily was warned by the Newman clinic to wean slowly so her milk supply wouldn't be affected. And she was also told there could be some anxiety. So she did taper slowly at first. But then in her eagerness to be done with pumping and freezing milk, which takes a really long time, she decided to stop altogether.

SOUNDCLIP

EMILY MATREAL: It was just good. I don't feel myself. The baby would cry and I couldn't get up to tend to him. It was very strange for me. I didn't have an appetite. I couldn't eat, I couldn't unwind, I couldn't sleep. I kind of just stayed like that for a while, and then our lives kind of started to unravel. I had a suicide attempt around shortly after my son's birthday. Just knowing that this isn't who I am or the life I worked towards, and that if I have to go on like this, I don't want to be here. And I think I felt really bad, too, because my family around me didn't know how to help either. And we were all just kind of hoping one day it would just go away. But it wasn't.

MG: So what kind of help did she get?

TARA CARMAN: This is a real issue, Matt, because when Emily went to American doctors. They didn't know what to do because it's not a drug they're familiar with.

MG: Because the FDA had had outlawed it.

TARA CARMAN: Exactly. It's never been legal in the states. So she got back in touch with the Newman Clinic and described her experience. And in an email, Dr. Newman told her her symptoms were rare for someone who had only taken the drug for three months. And he advised her to either take an anti-anxiety medication recommended by her American doctor or to go back on the Domperadone and wean more gradually. But what really actually helped her was talking to other women who had similar experiences.

MG: What does Dr. Newman say about these side effects?

TARA CARMAN: He says he believes the drug is safe and the side effects are rare. And he also cautions patients that there's a lot of misinformation online and counsels women not to seek out information about Domperidone on the Internet.

SOUNDCLIP

JACK NEWMAN: These effects are not common in our patients, but what is common in our patients or anybody's patients is postpartum depression or anxiety. These mothers have been on the Domperidone sometimes for several months, and then the small amounts of Domperidone enter into the brain and act as an antidepressant. And when they go off it, especially if they go off it quickly, the symptoms of maybe what is really the postpartum depression rather than the effect of the Domperidone. As I say, we rarely see this.

TARA CARMAN: Dr. Newman also said that if women are experiencing unusual symptoms, they can get back in touch with him and his team of lactation consultants.

MG: What sort of research has been done around cases like we're hearing from Emily and Jamie?

TARA CARMAN: Yeah, that's a great question, Matt. And because this drug is not approved anywhere as a lactation aid, there are no large scale clinical studies about psychological withdrawal symptoms. And there's also no safety data on what happens when the drug is prescribed at doses several times higher than what Health Canada and the drug company say is safe. But just last month, researchers at the Infant Risk Centre at the Texas Tech University Health Sciences Centre School of Medicine published three case studies looking at anxiety and psychosis in women weaning off of Domperidone. Caitlin Crouc h leads that research. She's a pharmacist and researcher and says the centre gets about half a dozen calls a week from American women in crisis. Trying to come off Domperidone and afraid to tell their doctors they've been taking a banned substance.

SOUNDCLIP

CAITLIN CROUCH: Oh, it's heartbreaking. A lot of times we'll hear from the same moms over and over that, that they're really struggling, that they're, they're having a lot of trouble with depression and that they're having trouble functioning in their daily lives that they don't want to get out of bed. We even hear that they are suicidal.

TARA CARMAN: Caitlin Crouch told us many women are getting the drug from Canadian or international pharmacies online.

MG: How can we be sure that these cases aren't women who are experiencing postpartum depression or anxiety?

TARA CARMAN: Yeah, that's a really important distinction. And Crouch addresses this in her research. And what she says is many of the women who contact her have found these symptoms appear when they go off the drug and then wane or disappear when they start taking it again. So there's a correlation there. And one of the women in her case study was never even pregnant. She took Domperidone to breastfeed an adopted baby. So Kretz believes women experiencing Domperidone withdrawal symptoms are often misdiagnosed.

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CAITLIN CROUCH: This withdrawal syndrome can look a lot like postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety. A lot of health care providers are really just looking to dismiss it as that because they don't know about the drug and they don't know about this as a possible side effect.

TARA CARMAN: We found another researcher in Canada, Janet Currie, who wrote her thesis on the effects of off label on paradigm and use on breastfeeding women while at UBC. And she says there should be a clear consent process. Women being prescribed on Peraton because it's for an off label use and because reactions to it are so unpredictable.

MG: What about the two we've been hearing about Emily and Jamie? How are they doing now, given what they've been through?

TARA CARMAN: Well, Emily and her family actually had to sell their house and move in with her parents while she went through withdrawal so that her mother could take care of her son, Connor. And they've now moved back into their own apartment. And Emily, happy to say, has returned to a place where she can enjoy doing things like listening to music and taking exercise classes again. And back in Montreal, Jamie has created a website where other women who've had traumatic experiences coming off Domperidone share their stories. And she did this because she wants women struggling to breastfeed and considering taking the drug to have the information that she didn't. I didn't understand that the medication that was being prescribed to me had not been. Researched as a treatment for the problem I was having, and I didn't understand that. That also meant that there was not research on potential side effects that I might experience taking it long term. Me not being able to care for my daughter for six months was a much bigger impact than her mixed feeding or not exclusively breastfeeding would have been. And I feel that I was not given the tools that I needed to make an informed choice about that.

MG: This is quite something. Tara, thank you very much.

TARA CARMAN: Thanks for having me, Matt.

MG: Tara Carman is a senior reporter with CBC's Investigative Unit. For more, you can go to Cbc.ca slash news or watch The National tonight on CBC.

[Music]

MG: You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio. My name is Matt Galloway. Children's hospitals across this country are feeling the strain of what they're calling a tri-endemic COVID flu and RSV.

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The challenge for us is finding the space, the nurses, the respiratory therapists, the other staff, not just the physicians, to care for all these kids being able to get them here in a timely fashion, get them in the door and get them the care that they need.

MG: That's from my visit to SickKids Hospital in Toronto last week. This week we're hearing the Red Cross will begin helping out with staffing at the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario. It is indeed a crisis. And so after hearing our story, many of you share your stories. The Current's senior producer, Karin Marley, is here with some of your mail. Karin, good morning.

KARIN MARLEY: Good morning, Matt. This first email is from a listener in Guelph, Ontario. She writes, My sister is a mother of three and a paediatrician who works in a hospital in a mid-sized city. She often messages me on her way to work. She's full of stress and anxiety about the shift to come kids that she cannot admit to ICU due to lack of space, a staff that is so demoralised, exhausted and run off their feet, they cannot treat each other kindly anymore. The awful conversations she has to have with desperate parents in the E.R. as she tries her best to find a place to admit their critically ill child and the long, hard hours of having to stay longer than a scheduled shift, as there is a lack of staff. She carries these stories of the children and families she meets in her heart and often cannot sleep due to worry. My sister is one of the most thorough, caring and incredible doctors, but the situation has her almost at a breaking point. It makes me incredibly sad.

MG: Mario De Divitiis is the CEO of our MHC. South Central Ontario. That's the Ronald McDonald House Charities. Mario writes, We support families with critically ill children by providing food, laundry, accommodations and programming to families while their young one is being treated. The paediatrics bubble, as I call this, is also hurting. We at our MHC across Canada have a 3000 person waiting list. My house in Hamilton is full. We have some families staying with us for hundreds of days. One finally left after 400 days because of this unprecedented situation. Moms, dads and siblings of sick children are also incredibly hurting.

KARIN MARLEY: So last week, we also heard an uplifting update on a story from a year ago.

MG: Yes, indeed. We spoke with Vicky Levack in Halifax the last time we spoke. Vicky desperately wanted to move 31 years old, living in a nursing home. She has cerebral palsy and had been fighting for a decade to move into her own place. And a couple of weeks ago, it happened.

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VICKY LEVACK: It's astonishing how, you know, two weeks in change for a person's life. I'm no longer had to take my anxiety meds since I've moved here. I make the rules my own home. It's been a little weird for me because people are asking me questions that I don't have the answer to because I've never had to think about it before. The first day I would go to a job with my assistant, she said, what brand of orange juice would you like? I don't k now. How am I supposed to know that? I've never had to buy orange orange juice.

MG: Everything changed for Vicky. I like that, she says. I make the rules now. It was her birthday on the weekend. She turned 32 years old and celebrated in her own place, which is a condo that she shares with her roommate.

KARIN MARLEY: So Lorna MacRury is in Port Hawkesbury, Nova Scotia. She's been following Vicki's story and says, What an amazing woman. I laughed, cried and cheered during the interview. What a terrible situation she was in and how brave she is to fight for her rights. Let this be a lesson to those who do not understand the resilience of the human spirit and the need to be able to live life as you wish. I hope she never has to eat pureed food ever again. Happy birthday, Vicky. You're my hero.

MG: And this comes from across the country. Cammy Lockwood writes from Cobble Hill in B.C.. In this world of 24 hour news, with heartbreak after heartbreak, devastation moves faster than we can process it. Sharing an update like this gives hope. It reminds us that change is possible. It can and does happen. I spoke with a number of people this weekend who said that they stopped where they were to listen to Vicky on the radio show, that's all about her and the amazing story that she has. And thank you, Karin.

KARIN MARLEY: She has a powerful voice. You're welcome.

MG: Karin Marley, senior producer on The Current. Thanks to everybody who wrote in. If there's anything here on the programme that you want to comment on, give us a holler. Email us thecurrent@cbc.ca. Well, coming up, after your regional update, she's made lives a little easier for some people with her answers to all kinds of questions. So why is the future of Alexa looking a little grim? Voice activated assistance. That's coming up in 90 seconds. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. Stick around.

Amazon losing billions on Alexa voice assistant

Guests: Eugene Kim, Cosmin Munteanu

MG: Hello again. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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ALEXA: Currently in Fogo Island, Newfoundland and Labrador. It's one degree Celsius with clear skies and sun. Today you can expect lots of clouds with a high of two degrees and a low of minus five degrees.

MG: You may recognise the dulcet tones of Alexa, the voice behind the Amazon Echo technology. That device was once hailed as the computer of the future. Ask her almost anything. The weather. A reminder to take medication to turn off the lights. How about this one? Alexa, how successful is your technology?

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ALEXA: A virtual voice assistant offered by Amazon. The Alexa is a permanent fixture with more than a few hundred million located in homes, cars and phones alike.

MG: You would expect nothing less. Alexa perhaps rather bullish on her own future. There are reports, though, that the technology might be in trouble. That branch of Amazon is reportedly on track to lose billions of dollars for the company this year alone. Eugene Kim is the chief technology correspondent for the online news publication Insider. Eugene, good morning.

EUGENE KIM: Hi, Matt. How are you?

MG: I'm well, thanks. What are the signs? That Alexa is in deep trouble?

EUGENE KIM: Well, there's always been speculation and some grumblings, you know, media reports hinting at these it was troubles at Alexa. And and there's just been questions over Alexa's general kind of financial viability. But the clearest indication came last month when when Amazon announced layoffs. And there were reports that the layoffs will primarily focus on on the Alexa team at Amazon. And we were also able to kind of confirm that Alexa is going to be the main target or display app, which is also, you know, the largest in Amazon's history. And on top of that, the annual hardware event that Amazon holds every September, October period, the one that they did this year, it was noticeably more tempered and smaller in scale. So a lot of people noticed that, you know, something may be off.

MG: What's gone off with Amazon? I mean, some of the headlines suggested that the company could lose $10 billion on Alexa and other devices. So what went sideways?

EUGENE KIM: Yeah. So Amazon doesn't disclose any financial figures for Alexa or its devices business. They always just say in vague terms that Echo and other Alexa devices are consistently bestselling products on Amazon. But what we've been able to report and other outlets as well is that in 2018, the team Alexa team lost $5 billion this year, at least by one measure there. They're they're on pace to lose $10 billion. So, you know, Alexa has been a major investment area for Amazon. They expected Alexa to become kind of the fourth pillar of its business. But the financial returns haven't been so impressive so far.

MG: What was the original vision for what this thing could be? I mentioned in the introduction that people were calling it the computer of the future. What was it meant to do?

EUGENE KIM: Amazon's vision was always to sell these devices at cost, make it affordable so they could reach a wide audience. And the goal was to generate profits and make money when people used a device to order stuff. For example, they would buy things on Amazon by talking to Alexa or order a pizza through Alexa, or they could play a story through a Disney app on Alexa. But a lot of those efforts effectively didn't materialise into moneymaking businesses. So, you know, we've been hearing that, you know, a lot of partners that built voice apps for Alexa, they were upset that the user engagement were there when these companies were investing a lot of money into building these apps. You know, there was a period in 2017-18 when Amazon was very excited about Alexa. They hired 10,000 people in a two year period just to work on Alexa. But now it seems like they're you know, they may have overstaffed, they may have overinvested, and now they're just, you know, kind of reassessing their priorities.

MG: The founder and former CEO of Amazon, Jeff Bezos, had a huge part himself in this. Right. In terms of seeing this as as as a real possibility for the company.

EUGENE KIM: Right. Right. So Bezos was very involved. He was closely working with the team. And I mean, you know, the first Echo device, for example, it's people say it's his brainchild and, you know, early on because Echo was such a surprise, you know, a huge success early on, Bezos kind of drove the team to invest more and think bigger. It was almost like they were throwing all these ideas at the wall just to see what sticks. And that's when we saw some unusual oddball devices, like a microwave oven that uses Alexa or, you know, like a whole flying drone that you can talk to. But although those device devices drew a lot of press attention and created some buzzed. Ultimately, they kind of failed to become a mainstream success.

MG: You spoke with employees of Amazon who work on Alexa, and they described what's going on over the last several years as a wasted opportunity and a colossal failure of imagination. What specifically are they talking about? What didn't wasn't seised upon when it comes to the. This technology.

EUGENE KIM: Yeah. So it's, so what I'm hearing is that there's just, you know, a lot of low morale, frustration, confusion over the direction of the business and just a lot of this disappointment because like I said, I was on hired 10,000 people in a two year period until 2018. At one point it was just shiny, sexy team within Amazon that everyone wanted to join. And voice technology was the hottest thing in tech. But, you know, they looking back over the past five years, Amazon, despite the buzz and the attention they did, largely failed to create a sustainable business model around voice technology. So, yes, there's huge user engagement, people like Alexa. But in terms of making money, there's still a huge question mark around that.

MG: Are people still using it? I mean, full disclosure, I have one of these things. We plugged it in, we use it for a while. Users, you'd set a timer, you know, when you're cooking food or what have you, you might have it play something on the radio. It now sits in a box in the basement. It is not plugged in. Your people still using this thing?

EUGENE KIM: Right. I mean, I think Amazon's like public figure is that, you know, billions of interactions per week. So it still seems to be very popular. The problem is that, like you said, you know, the commands that to use cases are very trivial. You know, people are just using it to play music or ask for the weather, you know, make some, you know, the jokes. But ultimately, that's not what Amazon wants. Right? They want more meaningful commercial transactions with, you know, through the voice. But so far, that just hasn't materialised.

MG: Why aren't people buying stuff through Alexa?

EUGENE KIM: Well, I mean, it's I guess it's just a, you know, radically different approach to commerce. People are not used to it. And, you know, these things take time to really become mainstream use case. But and on top of that, maybe there's some, you know, privacy concerns, having an always listening device at home. It makes some people uncomfortable. And the other thing is just, you know, you want that screen, you want that visual component. When you when you spend your money and buy something and when you rely just on the voice that it there's just certain limitations.

MG: So what do you think the future of this device is? Is it going to be, you know, the Palm Pilot of our time, which was hyped as a big thing and then now sits in the dustbin of history in that drawer of technological devices that we we bought years ago and don't use anymore.

EUGENE KIM: Well, it remains to be seen, but what's clear is that Amazon is being very public about their intention to continue investing in Alexa. So it's not going away immediately. It's not like they're shutting it down. The, maybe, the thing is, I think they're going to scale back a little bit. They are acknowledging that they did. They got a little overly excited about it. They overstaffed and they're basically going back to the drawing board and reassessing, you know, trying to be a little more selective in their approach. And I think they're their main focus area will be the home instead of, you know, making Alexa available everywhere outside of the home. And one of the focus areas right now is this home robot they launched last year. So I think that's going to be the kind of the central figure.

MG: Do you have an Alexa?

EUGENE KIM: I used to. I switched it to a Google device.

MG: Perhaps it speaks to the concerns and the issues that that Amazon has, perhaps that you might be not alone in that switching. Eugene. Good to talk to you. Thank you very much.

EUGENE KIM: All right. Thank you so much.

MG: Eugene Kim is the chief tech correspondent at Insider. Eugene Kim is not the only one using the Google version of a voice assistant. It's called the Google assistant. It's been around since 2016. Matthew Bernstein and his daughters, Zoe and Isabel use theirs daily.

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MATTHEW BERNSTEIN: Hey, Google. Play Bob Dylan on Spotify.

ALEXA: Playinb Bob Dylan on Spotify.

MATTHEW BERNSTEIN: I use it to check the front door. So, hey, Google, who's at the door?

ALEXA: Okay, streaming the front door.

MATTHEW BERNSTEIN: And it shows me who's outside. I like that a lot. I can just bring in my groceries and just go lock the door. And I don't have to do anything else. I don't have to make a trip back there. My daughter also likes it because we can broadcast a message to the whole house. Hi, everybody. Can I get you a glass of water, girls?

ALEXA: All right. Broadcasting now. [Beep] Reply from Zoe: Sure.

MATTHEW BERNSTEIN: Sure. The kids actually get it to help them with their maths homework or check their maths homework, things like that.

ZOE: It also reduces fractions for me. Hey Google what's for five divided by 2/5?

ALEXA: The answer is 0.08.

ZOE: Then you'd have to convert that for a fraction, but slightly annoying.

MATTHEW BERNSTEIN: So it'll show you your daily calendar. But I wake up in the morning, it will show me a few things I have on my calendar for that day.

ZOE: Or if you say like- or if you say Hey Google, tell me about my day.

ALEXA: Right now in Toronto, it's zero degrees and cloudy. To customise your good morning routine, take a look at routines and Google assistant settings. Have a great day. Here's the latest news.

NEWSCASTER: The world this hour. I'm Tom Harrington. Alberta's controversial sovereignty act is getting ...

MG: Technology seems to work for the Bernstein. Most of the time. I wonder, as we were listening to that, how many people's home devices were going off hearing Alexa or, hey, Google. Sorry about that. We've all had those fails. And it's not the technology going off when you don't expect it to, but also maybe you just can't figure out what you're saying or it doesn't answer. Cosmin Munteanu is somebody who has spent the past 25 years doing research on conversational voice interfaces. He's Associate Professor and Schlegel Research Chair in Technology for Healthy Ageing at the University of Waterloo. Cosmin, good morning to you.

COSMIN MUNTEANU: Good morning.

MG: What was the promise of these? Voice assistants, these devices that were meant to help us with our lives?

COSMIN MUNTEANU: Well, I think we had this promise since probably like the 1960s, and we were envisioning sort of the true what we call hands free interaction. So something that doesn't require anything to operate computers than just our voice. We saw it portrayed in in media, portrayed in popular media for those of a certain age and and passion for science fiction movies. Every computer, especially computer villain, has a voice. And and we see that. And I think that kind of set some expectations that will see this in our literally in our daily lives.

MG: And so, I mean, we don't have how so much or the Jetsons lifestyle that maybe we were promised. But what has come from these devices, do you think?

COSMIN MUNTEANU: Well, I think what the thing that came was a serious engineering push that got us to a point where the technology behind these devices was feasible enough to be launched for a sort of the mass market. Unfortunately, the engineering push was not matched by a design push in the sort of human factors, aspects of how we design these things and how we use this things.

MG: Are you surprised that Amazon is reassessing how the company is investing in this kind of technology? Again, the reports are that that the company could lose, you know, tens of billions of dollars, perhaps around this over the next several years.

COSMIN MUNTEANU: To be honest, I'm actually surprised it took us that long to get to this point when these technologies, especially when things like Siri came on the market, a lot of us in the community who study this technology or designed this technology or, you know, we're sort of shaking our head because it was kind of the general reaction of too soon. We're not we're not ready. We haven't designed these things properly yet. So I'm not surprised we got to this point. And I think part of it is the the fact that, you know, selling a 50 or $60 trinket doesn't necessarily mean these are designed properly. This means they are cheap. And so that's, I think, that's where we are right now. It's this discrepancy between the fact that these are available, but we have not designed them for the proper use. And I think a previous example is on this quite on this show are very relevant. We are using them in a very, very limited way.

MG: Part of this is about, I guess when the technology was launched, the assumption was that you would have some sort of relationship with this thing, that the voice wouldn't just be a voice coming out of the speaker, but that you would have some sort of ongoing relationship with it. How would you describe what the relationship is that we have?

COSMIN MUNTEANU: Well, we have sort of three metaphors that drive the way we interact with these technologies. And one of the metaphors that initially was well set, especially for things like Siri, was this sort of a personal assistant, a butler or or a secretary, both outdated sort of modes that we sort of cling to this kind of past of. It was nice to have these people around us to help us. And so that that was the premise under which these technologies were sold. Unfortunately, the way they're designed these days, it's it's more for either a fortune teller or a vending machine and nothing else. So we're very unimaginative when it comes to designing these technologies in how we are embedding them in our daily lives. And when I say we, I mean the design community and the industry around this, this technology.

MG: How could it be designed better? Because Google has said earlier this year that it was looking at making its assistant more conversational so that it could, I guess, better understand what people were trying to say. So what's the better way forward if you're looking at how to design those things in a in a way that's actually going to meet that promise and meet that potential one.

COSMIN MUNTEANU: One way we've been we've been pushing quite a lot. This is actually changing the way where we're approaching the design of these technologies. There are not sort of very top down. It's saying, well, users need this and then and then so they're launching a product that doesn't necessarily meet the user needs. And understanding what people would need from this. And conversational may be the answer, but there's significant research that shows that it's not always the answer for conversations, just even simple examples. We've done research comparing Alexa with a computer on Star Trek, and we mention about being inspired by these technologies. And most of them then at [unintelligible] did a corporate what we call corpus analysis of how a Star Trek computer kind of behaves. And there were a lot of things that are possible with the current technology that when you think about it, makes sense, but we're not doing them. For example, confirmation every time after you wanted to play a song instead of just playing the song. Simple things like that. In the design space, in the human factor space, we were not listening to our users when it comes to designing this technology.

MG: It was really interesting as we talked about this just very briefly on Friday, and I asked people to tell us how they use voice technology. We got notes from people all across the country, from the United States as well, people who use it. Yes. To listen to the radio. But also we heard from a number of older listeners. And people who were visually impaired about how much they actually rely on the technology. We got a note from Earl Wynands, 93 years old, a physician who is legally blind and uses Alexa as a tool to deal with the pandemic, including to find out information about health issues and get in touch with people and to go shopping. You have looked at how older people use this technology. What have you found?

COSMIN MUNTEANU: We found significant discrepancies between the expectations set around these technologies and the uses and doesn't mean people are not finding their own creative uses. But in general, on a broader sense, there's a significant mismatch. And often in a way and I don't want to necessarily point at the media all of the time, but we the way we're portraying this in the in the public discourse, in the tech media and the media in general, we're setting up some significant expectations that were not necessarily met. And we have study with older adults and our peers. This student is saying this is her main research space, looking at how older adults use these technologies. And she found that older adults found actually the current voice interfaces being too primitive. And this is one of the themes that came out from our research. It met the expectations for very, very, very simple tasks. And a lot of the uses that older adults expected from these technologies were not offered, including on the accessibility side. It doesn't always work fully as an accessible support. It works in many cases, but not fully as it should be.

MG: We also heard, I mean, to that point from a listener, Sheena Mackenzie, who said that she uses adaptive plugs so that she can use Alexa to turn the lights on and off. So to your point, if it's more sophisticated, what potential is there for voice technology to make the lives of seniors in particular easier?

COSMIN MUNTEANU: I think what I think the answer to that is actually quite, quite complicated because in a way, we don't have a very simple answer. One of the problems is we have been chasing these very, very simple answers. We've been chasing this kind of easy recipe for for getting something done. And my only answer is listen to the users and design with the users. We're championing this new approach that's actually been quite around in having, for example, older adults help us design these technologies and see how they can they can use it. We've done, for example, research on sort of virtual doctors during the pandemic where everyone was jumping on one virtual medicine. And we found that older adults like to embrace these technologies, but they want to do it on their own terms. They want to set the terms. They want to set what parts of the interaction are controlled by a voice in voice device and what parts are a human person? And often this is around issues of trust, trust in the entities that are behind this technology. So it's a lot of issues that we need to uncover around designing for the final. Anyways, to have people trust this technology, to have it work fully and be embraced by people and imagining even imagining the way we're using them and areas in which we're using them instead of simply just asking for for a playlist or asking, what's the weather?

MG: So in the last minute or so that we have, leap ahead into the future, five, ten years, how do you think these these assistance will be used? Is there a place for them?

COSMIN MUNTEANU: I think there will be a place, and I think it would be in a in a less obvious way. I think right now they've been thrown in front in our faces. And it's it's something that we're not like like suddenly being stuck with a neighbour that you have to talk to that you actually don't like much. And I think we have to find a more discreet way of using that where this can be embedded. These devices that can help us understand what we're doing, that can track with us when we're driving our cars to understand our actions and understand that we there's traffic ahead of us or I want to change my routeing without having to have this very, very explicit conversation where we need to adapt to their design capabilities instead of them listening to us and helping us and in a natural way.

MG: A device that is meant to be listened to. You want the designers to actually listen to us when they design that device.

COSMIN MUNTEANU: Exactly.

MG: Cosmin, this is fascinating. Thank you very much.

COSMIN MUNTEANU: My pleasure.

MG: Cosmin Munteanu is an associate professor and Schlegel research chair in Technology for Healthy Ageing at the University of Waterloo. As I mentioned, we got a lot of mail from people in all sorts of places who use these technologies and find them useful. If you have any thoughts on that, do get in touch. You can email us thecurrent@cbc.ca that is The Current for this Monday comes up next on CBC Radio one. Before we go, Bob McGrath entertained children on Sesame Street for nearly five decades. Bob McGrath has died. He was 90 years old. You'll know him if you are an old school Sesame Street fan. When the show debuted in 1969, he was the music teacher on the street, one of the four founding human cast members. Before that, he had a long career. We'll hear about that in just a moment. But you think of him on Sesame Street. Do you think of iconic moments? There's one that stands out. This was one of the most important and moving bits on television. I remember seeing this as it happened when the man who played the Sesame Street store owner, Mr. Hooper, died. Bob talked on Sesame Street to Big Bird about the issue of death.

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VOICE 1: Well, it won't be the same. You read paper? It's. It's. It'll never be the same around here without him. But you know something? But we can all be very happy that we had a chance to be with them and to know and to love him a lot when he was here.

VOICE 2: Yeah. And Big Bird, we still have our memories of him. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Memories. Right. My memories. That's how I drew this picture. Remembering. Yeah. And. And we can remember him and remember him and remember him. Just as we want to.

MG: It was an incredible moment on television. Bob McGrath had a wild career. He was a fixture on Saskatchewan's Tell a Miracle fundraiser. He was a teen idol in Japan, Irish tenor, who had a voice that suited sentimental Japanese songs, so much so that he actually recorded nine albums overseas, singing in both English and Japanese.

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[Song]

MG: For so many children, including myself, Bob McGrath felt like a neighbour. And so we're going to leave you with a Sesame Street classic and a Bob original. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current. Talk to you tomorrow.

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VOICE 1: How would you like to meet some of the people around your neighbourhood today? Hmm? Oh. Who are the people in your neighbourhood? In your neighbourhood? In your neighbourhood? Would say, who are the people in your neighbourhood? The people that you meet each day. I'm someone now. Hi there. Hi. You're kind of cute. Hey, listen, when I asked you, I see you've got a little white hat and some sunglasses, swimming suit and a smart little whistle. Yeah. You must be a lifeguard.

VOICE 2: I guess you'd be safe in saying that. Oh. Mind if I waved to everyone?

VOICE 1: Wave. Dive right in.

VOICE 2: Ok. Oh, a lifeguard looks out in the sun watching everyone one. At the ocean that the beach around the pool. I see that saftey is a rule.

VOICE 1: A lifeguard is a person in your neighbourhood. In your neighbourhood. In your neighbourhood. Lifeguard is a person in your neighbourhood of person that you meet each day.

VOICE 2: Well, kind of. Go see something.

VOICE 1: Okay. Here comes somebody else. Excuse me, sir. I see you have a hammer and a saw there. You must be a carpenter.

VOICE 3: You hit the nail on the head. Can I ask you a couple of questions about being a carpenter?

VOICE 3: I wish you would.

VOICE 1: Are you a good carpenter?

VOICE 3: Never saw a batter. My wife this morning asked me to make the bat. What's wrong with that? I didn't have enough lumber. Oh, a carpenter is very good. And when it comes to hammers, nails and wood. And if you want to build a house, or [unintelligible] you a chair. Well, a carpenter can help you there.

VOICE 1: Cause the carpenter is the person in your neighbourhood. In your neighbourhood. He's in your neighbourhood.

VOICE 2: And the lifeguard of that person in your neighbourhood.

VOICE 1: They're the people that you meet.

VOICE 2: When you're walking down the street. They're the people that you meet each day. Hey. Well, I got to go talk to the girls and boys, all right?

VOICE 1: I saw that. I bought her.

Monday December 5, 2022 Full Transcript

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