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The AIH Transcript For February 08, 2022

[hosts]Peter Armstrong, Chris Howden[/hosts]

PETER ARMSTRONG: Hello, I'm Peter Armstrong, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden, this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

PA: A bridge too far. The mayor of Windsor, Ontario says protests in Ottawa are one thing, but blocking the busiest trade route between Canada and the U.S. is another.

CH: Bad for business. Far from "freeing" them to operate, a growing number of Ottawa business owners say the "Freedom Convoy" is forcing them to close up for reasons COVID never could.

PA: In the pink, right to the end. If you want to live a long life, you might consider taking your cues from Betty the flamingo, whose longevity is legendary -- and who would happily go out on one limb for a friend.

CH: Building blocks. Seven months after she lost her home to a B.C. wildfire, our guest is frustrated by the pace of rebuilding in Lytton -- and she worries some of her neighbours won't return to the community.

PA: It's a feature, not a bug, but it's also a bug. A chimpanzee researcher tells us the remarkable experience of watching apes apply mashed up insects to their wounds.

CH: And… only for truly die hard fans. If you watched all the movies Bruce Willis sleepwalked through in 2021, you deserve some kind of award -- and the people who give out awards for the worst movies believe Mr. Willis does, too.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that warns anyone curious about his latest work you are cruising for a bruce-ing.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Ambassador Bridge: Windsor Mayor, Lytton Slow Rebuilding, Old Flamingo Dies

Ambassador Bridge: Windsor Mayor

Guest: Drew Dilkens

CH: It's a vital international trade crossing -- and a symbol of the close relationship between Windsor, Ontario and Detroit, Michigan. And now, it has become another site of disruption, linked to demonstrations against vaccine mandates and broader public health measures. Protesters began blocking access around the Ambassador Bridge crossing yesterday. And while some traffic was moving in the direction of the U.S. today, there were still problems. Drew Dilkens is the mayor of Windsor. We reached him there earlier today.

PA: Mayor Dilkens, as you watched your city become the next site of these border protests yesterday, and the sound of honking filled the air, what went through your mind?

DREW DILKENS: I mean, I thought it was just a matter of time before the convoy would reach the city of Windsor, recognizing we're home to the busiest commercial border crossing between the United States and Canada. And a full one-third of trade between our two nations crosses right here. There is no doubt the situation cannot last for very long because you cannot have this busy border crossing choked off for very long without having a huge impact on the Canadian economy.

PA: I've just been looking at some of the videos that our colleague Chris has been posting up on Twitter. Can you just describe the scene for us? Because it really does look remarkable?

DD: I think people would be surprised that when they… when they look at the… the blockade itself, people are thinking that this is sort of a trucker blockade. But when you look at the composition of the vehicles, in fact, the majority of them are not your typical sort of semi-truck drivers. They're pickup trucks and other vehicles who've joined this so-called freedom convoy to protest. And it's really a hodgepodge of people. I think most of us are unclear what it is the protest is actually all about because you have folks who are, you know, originally protesting the vaccine requirement to return to Canada at the border. That's how it started. But then it's morphed into people who are just very angry at government. People who have views that, you know, aren't really heard in other forms. But this gives them their voice, some lift. And it is basically a leaderless group. The end of which, or the ideas that they're trying to put forward or the protests that they're undertaking, I think is really not well understood.

PA: Are there actual cross-border truckers involved in this, as far as you can tell?

DD: Yeah, there are some truckers who are involved in the convoy. But… but like I said, when you look at the… if you look at pictures of where the majority of them are staged, the vast majority of vehicles are not semi-trailers or semi-trucks that you would expect to see. And I have to say that, you know, in our local media this morning, in our newspaper, you know, there was one local resident who came from about 20 minutes outside of Windsor who said that this is a cause so passionate… she's so passionate about that it's a cause she's willing to die for.

PA: Wow.

DD: And I think that that type of language is indicative of how some people feel about what they're doing out here. And for most of us, we were probably saying, really, are you kidding? I don't understand that. I mean, I wouldn't give my life for this. But that is the irrationality that police are trying to deal with in some cases. And so, as they work through some of the protesters, some are very rational, very respectful, very polite. Some are very irrational. And it's… it's hard to find a rational solution when you're dealing with irrational actors.

PA: And it's not just the… the export and import of goods. A lot of Windsor residents, people cross that bridge daily to go to and come to work. How many people in Windsor are not able to get to their jobs on the other side of the bridge?

DD: Well, in normal times, when… when there was no pandemic, we had about 6,000 people a day who lived in Windsor and crossed for work over to Michigan. The pandemic scaled that back considerably. But on a… on a… on a… on our lowest day, we still see about 1,200 people who cross from Windsor into Detroit, most of whom work in health care. And we know from the very beginning of the pandemic, when the border was closed, and there was some initial talk about it being a hard closure, no one could go back and forth. I… in my conversation with some hospital CEOs in Detroit, they actually said to me, Drew, if that border closes with a hard close, we will have entire hospitals that will have to close down because we will not have enough staff to keep them open. And so, that just speaks again to the… the integrated nature of our… of our human capital. It speaks to the integrated nature of our… our border city relationship because we are of the automotive capital of Canada and so is Detroit on their side of the U.S. And the supply chains are so tightly integrated on the… on the business side, on the human capital side that, you know, people will often say that a vehicle that rolls off the finish line at an assembly plant, the parts that went into the production of that vehicle have crossed the border on average of six times before it rolls off the assembly line.

PA: And yet, as you say, there are people saying they're willing to die for this. Protesters have told the CBC that they have no plans to leave. What are your concerns for how this plays out over the next few days?

DD: Listen, I'm going to say that there are many people in the public who are really frustrated by what they see, and they want the city to take action; they want me to jump in there. They want the police to go in and bash heads together and just tow 'em and ticket 'em and pull 'em out of there. And I get that sentiment. I get that feeling. And I understand why people feel the way they do, and they want to see something like that happen. Because they don't understand the rationality of this protest. At the same time, we also have police officers that have families, who've signed up for risky work, but we don't want to put them in a situation that is going to get them injured. We don't want to put the protesters in a situation where they're going to get injured or members of the public. Trying to deal with us in a sensible way in a fair and reasonable way. Police are working with the protesters to deal with situations they have on the ground that provide pathways to get lanes open to and from the Ambassador Bridge that would allow truck traffic to continue to flow. While respecting that, we could set aside a lane or two for protests to continue to happen. For those people to express themselves and whatever point it is they're trying to make. There's a way for things to work in harmony here that, you know, would… would help resolve the situation. But a full closure, a hard stop at the border like is happening now, that is not going to be tolerated for very long. And I expect you're going to see some federal, provincial and… and, you know, intervention. And we will certainly be out there on the municipal side with our police resources to support that.

PA: You know, I think a lot of people will hear that, but then they'll look at what's been happening in Ottawa and see that that's been going on for 11 days. And there's only really now just the beginnings of a plan to actually start getting that situation under control. What do you say to people who… who turn to you and say, Mayor, do we have a plan? Are we in a position to actually clear this out?

DD: I don't want to diminish the impact of what folks in Ottawa are experiencing or the mayor there or the police service. I know they're frustrated and they've worked very diligently trying to find a resolution that does not see people get injured. But I would submit that the closure of a residential street or the street in front of Parliament Hill, as odd as that is, you know, it is the seat of government, and Ottawa is used to protests like this. And I get that there are small businesses and others, I do not want to diminish what's happening in Ottawa by my comments. But I'm going to say that the… the… the impact of stopping $500 million a day of international trade that crosses that Ambassador Bridge will get noticed by a lot of leaders very, very quickly and will not be tolerated for very long because it is just too important to our national economy.

PA: All right, we'll leave it there. Mr. Mayor, thank you so much for this.

DD: Thank you very much.

CH: That was Drew Dilkens, the mayor of Windsor, Ontario, speaking to us earlier today. He's also the chair of the Windsor Police Services Board. And we've posted more on that story to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Lytton Slow Rebuilding

Guest: Denise O'Connor

CH: Denise O'Connor grew up in Lytton, British Columbia. For more than three decades, she lived in the same home downtown. But like so many others, she lost that home last June -- when fire ripped through the village, destroying about 90 per cent of its buildings. Since then, beyond the snow that recently fell, the scene at Ms. O'Connor's property has changed very little. And now, she's speaking out about her frustrations at the pace of the rebuilding effort. We reached her in Lytton.

PA: Denise, it's been seven months now since the fire. How are you doing these days?

DENISE O'CONNOR: Yeah, I'm not doing too bad at all. I found a place to live here in… back in Lytton.

PA: Describe for us the damage that the fire did to your home back in June?

DO: Okay. Well, the fire, you know, came so quickly into town. And it totally destroyed, totally destroyed my home. There's nothing left, just a burned-out foundation with ash and pieces of metal. You know, I look there, and I see my washing machine and dryer and a few things like that, you know?

PA: Oh, wow!

DO: But there's just nothing left.

PA: What does it look like now? I mean, how… has any progress been made at all at your property?

DO: Yeah. In the townsite, there has been some trees taken down, I believe, around town, but… some danger trees. But other than that, it looks pretty much the same as it did when I went in to do the sifting back at the end of the summer. I know there are things going on, you know, with planning for debris removal and that sort of thing. But it is… it is frustrating not seeing anything happen after this many months, like it's been just over seven months now.

PA: A B.C. government adviser on the rebuild has said that, you know, it may not look like a lot of work is going on, but behind the scenes, all kinds of things are happening. What are your biggest concerns at this point?

DO: Yeah. Well, you know, I do believe things are happening, and that's a positive thing. The biggest concern is the time that's gone by. I do have insurance, but our policy has a two-year window. And they talk about, you know, we can get extensions for our rebuild, on that policy. But no extension for our living-out allowance. And so many people that I know in the community that lost their home, they have insurance. They're… they're finding places to rent in other parts of the province. And they've got… that living-out allowance is going to end after two years. They're still paying mortgages. You know, they still have other property taxes to pay, different things like that. And they're very concerned, as I am as well.

PA: Responding to concerns about the pace of the rebuild, Lytton has said that the debris cleaned up has been… it's been delayed by storms. It said the area also needs to be treated respectfully because of the archeological importance to the local First Nation. To what extent is the pace of the rebuild, I guess, understandable because of a number of… of all of these unprecedented factors.

DO: You know, we saw a new recovery team come on in November, and that's when we started seeing things happening or hearing about things happening. Before that was, you know, a good four months where far as we know, nothing happened. That's the frustrating part is because nothing happened. You know, things are starting so late. Had they started, had this recovery team or a recovery team been put in place, you know, much earlier, we would have seen things. I believe we would have seen things happening a lot quicker. With the archeological piece, Lytton is a… is a major archeological area. First Nations people have been here for 10,000 years or more. So we know that. My concern around that is who is going to pay for that?

PA: And so what do you… like, I mean, at this point in the dead of winter, do you expect there to be any real progress on the ground before… before spring?

DO: Oh, absolutely. So today, the snow is all melted. It's six degrees above zero. [PA chuckles] It's not dead of winter. It's Lytton, right? [laughing]

PA: Yeah, fair enough. It is.

DO: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do expect it. And we keep hearing it's going to be happening soon. The latest we have heard is by March 1st, we should start seeing some things happen. So we're hopeful that that's true and that will happen, yeah.

PA: You've been working, if I've got this right, at the resiliency centre?

DO: Yeah, yeah, we have a resiliency centre open here.

PA: And what sort of support are you offering to residents through that role?

DO: Well, we have… have a place… it's a place here. It's almost like a hub. We're at the… the school that survived the fire. There is no place for people to meet for coffee or, you know, meet people on the corner by the post office to say hello.

PA: Right.

DO: So we're offering at it's a space for that. We have a coffee pot on all the time. We have some jigsaw puzzles and cards here. So we're hoping, you know, that we're offering to people to… to stop in for those kinds of things. And as well, we have resources here around, you know, Red Cross and other agencies that people… people that need to access supports that are in the area here can come in.

PA: It's interesting because that's all the stuff that really does tie a community together, doesn't it? When you… when you go through those motions and see people doing jigsaw puzzles and grabbing a coffee together, what do you miss most about the old Lytton?

DO: I think it's just that. It's the people. All the people up and down my street for… for the most part, are spread all over the province still. The people coming into the resiliency centre here aren't the people that lived in the village. It's the people that are still living around the area. My neighbour, who is 85 years old, wants to come back to Lytton. Wants to come back and live in her house that she… you know, she plans to rebuild. But her worry is that she won't get to do that because of the time that's going on.

PA: And as you say, so many people have been scattered to so many different parts of the province. What worries do you have that… that maybe some or even a lot of them don't come back? What happens to Lytton?

DO: Because they are scattered all over, some of them are settling in some of the other areas, right? I know two… two of my friends from down my street have purchased homes in other communities rather than rent.

PA: Oh, wow.

DO: And so, you know, I'm worried they're going to settle there and not want to come back.

PA: Well, listen, I can't imagine how frustrating this has been for you and other people trying to navigate all this. And just really grateful you made the time to speak with us today.

DO: I just want to add that I do see positive things happening with our recovery team. As I said, I'm just really, really hopeful that things will return back to… not back to what we had because I don't think it ever will. But it'll be back to a place of Lytton. Because Lytton is a special place.

PA: It sure is. Well, listen, thanks a lot for this. Really appreciate it.

DO: Okay, thank you.

CH: Denise O'Connor is a resident of Lytton, British Columbia. That's where we reached her.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

Old Flamingo Dies

Guest: Sara Hallager

CH: Betty lived to be 67, which was well beyond what anyone expected. And although she wasn't as spry as she'd been in her youth, her feathers were the same bright pink they'd always been. Betty, a flamingo, defied the odds and became a kind of icon at the National Zoo in Washington, D.C. She didn't reach her advanced age without a lot of help from the zookeepers, though -- who grew very fond of her. Sara Hallager is a curator of birds at The National Zoo. She knew Betty for many years. We reached her in Washington D.C.

PA: Sarah, what was it like to finally say goodbye to Betty the Flamingo?

SARA HALLAGER: Saying… saying goodbye to Betty the Flamingo was very sad. She was an older bird. She was close to 70 years old. So her passing was not unexpected. But I had worked Betty… I had worked with Betty for close to 35 years. And, you know, when you work with an animal for that long, it's… they're very close to you. And it was very sad when she finally passed.

PA: I'm sure.

SH: But she had a long life here at the National Zoo. And living to be nearly 70 for a flamingo was pretty amazing.

PA: The remarkable accomplishment. And she was not just a fixture, but she really stood out. What made Betty such a fixture at the zoo?

SH: Many of us who worked with Betty remember her… so in a flock of, you know, 75 pink birds, it's kind of hard to, you know, get to know them as individuals. But for Betty, she was… well, for one thing, we always kind of knew her band number, 89. Like, that was Betty's band numbers. So all our flamingos have a band on their leg. It's much like when we go to a conference and we wear a nametag, it kind of helps us know who's who. And so with the flamingos, we… they all have leg bands. And Betty was number 89. And she was always kind of on the periphery of the flock. So she was easy to find. But the most memorable thing about Betty that made her stand out was that during the times of the year when we had chicks or young birds in the yard, Betty was always there. She seemed to have a very protective, nurturing just way about her. She seemed to be very interested in the young birds, and she just kind of took them under her wing, so to speak.

PA: And I mean, the longevity of her. Like, it's astounding. How rare is it for flamingos to live this long?

SH: It's unusual for a flamingo to live this long. There was a report out of a zoo in Australia of a flamingo, and I do not recall the species, that lived for I think it was close to 80 years.

PA: Oh, wow!

SH: And Betty, being close to 70 was remarkable. We've… we've had other flamingos in the flock that have lived into their 40s and 50s, but never a bird that lived documented 67 years. So for most flamingos, and we have several in the flock now that are in their mid to late 30s. So they definitely are a species that have… that are quite capable of long lives, but typically not quite this long. So, really, it was a remarkable life.

PA: How did Betty get her name?

SH: [chuckle] Betty was named in early 2021 after Betty White.

PA: uh-huh!

SH: And she, at that time, people were getting ready to celebrate Betty White's 100th birthday. And Betty White was also, I think, as many people know, just an incredible advocate for animals, but also a great friend to zoos and aquariums around the world. We knew we had this older flamingo in the flock. And I mean, who doesn't love Betty White? [PA chuckles] So we wanted to honour the great, late Betty White by naming this wonderful, beautiful bird in her honour. And so, that's how Betty came to be.

PA: Anything that's been around that long and has become such a fixture in an organization, it's the little things that you end up sort of missing and not thinking about until suddenly they're not there. What are you going to miss most about Betty?

SH: Well, it's kind of a funny story. So flamingos are monogamous. They're… you know, they sort of quote/unquote mate for life. But for many years, Betty had a mate that copulated with her head. And so… so that's not the way it's supposed to work.

PA: Not generally, no.

SH: [chuckle] So, he always copulated with her head. [PA chuckles] And after he was done, he kind of, you know, jumped off and did this… flapped his wings and honked. And I thought to himself, you know, great job!

PA: Look at me go.

SH: [chuckling] And so, that's why Betty never had many chicks because copulation was obviously not successful. But for many birds, they're still reproductively geared to lay eggs. So even though copulation has not been successful, the female will still lay an egg. So, of course, Betty laid an egg. And, of course, it wasn't fertile, but she exhibited… she and her mate exhibited just wonderful parenting skills. And so, many zoos do this with flamingo eggs, where they'll… the egg is laid, the egg is removed to an incubator for safekeeping, and the pair is given what's called a dummy egg, a plaster egg to sit on. And so, Betty and her mate would sit on this plaster egg, and they exhibited very, very good parental skills. And so, that's how we kind of came to learn that Betty was a really good mom. Because we would give her chicks to raise. And year after year after year, she exhibited… she raised many, many chicks during her life, even though they weren't her own.

PA: Wow! Will the zoo ever feel the same without seeing Betty every day?

SH: I mean, it's… it's sad. She was a bird that, like I say, I worked her… worked with her for 35 years. A lot of the other bird house team members knew this bird. I mean, it's… it's sad to see her go.

PA: Well, Sarah, thank you for this. Really appreciate you sharing all these stories with us.

SH: It was my pleasure. Thank you so much for being interested in Betty's story.

PA: Take care!

CH: Sara Hallager is a curator of birds at the National Zoo. We reached her in Washington D.C.

[Music: Elevator music]

Bad Bruce Willis Award

CH: Moonlighting, Die Hard, The Sixth Sense: there's no arguing that Bruce Willis has given some indelible performances. But recently, he seems to exclusively choose projects that are extremely… delible. Who could remember his role as Sheriff Ben Watts in 2021's American Siege?

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: Tense]

[Sound: A gun hammer clicks]

BRUCE WILLIS: I'm the sheriff of this county.

MAN: Don't forget who put you there.

CH: His appearance as retired cop James Malone in Apex, from 2021?

SOUNDCLIP

KID: You're good,

BW: Kid, I'm better than good. I’m bacon and eggs on Sunday morning.

[Sound: Another gun cocks]

CH: His portrayal of retired general James Ford in the 2021 sci-fi movie, Cosmic Sin?

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: Ain’t that something? We didn't know whether to burn it or put in a museum?

BW: I’m sure they said the same thing about me.

[Sound: The hum of a spacecraft engine]

CH: His 2021 turn as retired cop Jack Harris in Out of Death?

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: Tense slow-mo sound]

BW: There's no quitting now, you understand?

WOMAN: Okay.

CH: Or his role as non-retired cop David -- just "David", apparently -- in Survive The Game? From 2021.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: Tense]

BW: I've been chasing that boss forever. This might go south.

CH: Well, if you go by the 14 per cent Fresh rating on Rotten Tomatoes, things definitely go south. Those are just five of the eight movies that Bruce Willis appeared in last year. All of which got horrendous reviews. And it seems like maybe Mr. Willis is not… ah, what was that line from the trailer for Apex?

SOUNDCLIP

BW: Kid, I'm better than good. I’m bacon and eggs on Sunday morning.

CH: Right. He's not..."bacon and eggs on Sunday morning". A very common slang expression meaning you're good. Anyway: it's not clear why, exactly, but for the past few years, he's been acting -- or at least, frowning -- in dozens of forgettable non-thrillers. To the point where yesterday, the Razzie Awards -- which celebrate terrible movies -- announced a new category: "Worst Performance by Bruce Willis in a 2021 Movie". Well, look, the Razzies are just mean-spirited. But they kind of have a point. Maybe -- just for his own legacy -- Mr. Willis should aim a little higher. Because right now, his name on a movie suggests just one thing:

SOUNDCLIP

BW: This might go south.

[Music: tense]

[Music: Spanish guitar]

Part 2: Ottawa Protest Business Owner, Chimpanzee Insect Medicine

Ottawa Protest Business Owner

Guest: Scott May

CH: The honking may have subsided, but downtown Ottawa is still at a standstill. The protest has been creating total gridlock in the capital for 11 days now, making it hard for anyone to get much business done. And business owners are frustrated. Scott May is the owner of Bar Robo, a live music venue right by Parliament Hill. We reached him in Ottawa.

PA: Scott, you went down to Bar Robo today. What were you doing there?

SCOTT MAY: Well, we prepped to reopen Jan 31st, on the Friday before the Monday that we were set to have all of the mandates lifted and allow the bar to reopen for shows and music on Monday, January 31st. So consequently, we have a lot of prepped food sitting about. And I was loathe to make the call to… to get rid of it. But now here we are, 10… 11 days later. So, it was time to pull the plug on that food. We'll have to reload everything again if and when we ever get to reopen.

PA: That must have been a terrible feeling? What was going through your head as you're throwing that all out?

SM: It actually gave me a flashback to March of 2020.

PA: Hmmm.

SM: When emptying of… you know, sandwich fridges and trying to get rid of all the perishable food. So, it was kind of a flashback to that, I'm afraid. But the challenge is I don't know when even… no one does, when we're going to be able to reopen again.

PA: Right.

SM: It could be tomorrow, it could be next week, it could be a month from now. Who knows?

PA: Your bar is right downtown. What was it like in that area? What did you see when you went down there today?

SM: The usual. It, fortunately, was quite a bit quieter than it has been the last few days since the injunction, you know, banning horns, use of horns. But, you know, there's a fairly good police presence, lots of roadblocks, lots of protesters and lots of bright yellow jerry cans being ferried in and out of the space. I passed by a couple of truckers refuelling, you know, much to my surprise, frankly.

PA: because they're not supposed to be doing that.

SM: Well, the police chief said that they will not tolerate that. They're going to stop jerry cans from going in and out of the scene. But clearly, the truckers have gotten around that.

PA: How do you feel about these… these protesters and what they've been doing in the downtown area for, as you say, 11 days now?

SM: Well [clears throat], you know, we've been shut down for two years, two years-plus now, almost three. And, you know, we're anxious to get reopened just like everyone in Canada. I don't think anybody wants any more mandates, frankly. You know, the… the downtown businesses and downtown residents are becoming pawns in this game that nobody knows the rules. And, you know, everybody now doubts there are even rules at all. And, you know, the whole tone of this thing has become diminished to the point that nobody's even sure what the game is about anymore.

PA: Do you… do you have sympathy, though, for those that remain? I mean, it's still a pretty big core group of protesters that are… that are still downtown.

SM: Ah, you know, I have no sympathy for them one way or the other. I understand where they're coming from. I understand their anger and their frustration. I, too, share in it. You know, I'm in a similar boat that they are. And that's the irony is they don't see that like them, I can't make a living either. But they're the cause of it, unfortunately. I really do understand their sense of frustration. I get it. But we are… businesses downtown, we're being held hostage by this, and we're incredibly frustrated. Every day we remain closed, we lose money. It's not safe for us to open. The downtown is deserted of people. At this point, Ottawa residents have very little confidence in any level of our government, whereas, you know, the police have made promises that they're going to stop this or at least ratchet up the… the level of enforcement. I haven't seen that. Where's my provincial premier? Where is Mr. Trudeau in all of this? Have we got any kind of engagement from anybody over and above the municipal level? I mean, our mayor and our city councillors are blue in the face now from asking for help, and we're not getting any. So where does this… where's this going to end? How's this going to end? I don't see... I don't see an end game to this.

PA: So that's the advice to the sort of various levels of government. What about the leaders of the protest, though?

SM: I think that they've forgotten what it's about. And, you know, and I see, like, vicarious levels of excitement and titillation from the protesters that are just happy that they've had such an impact, frankly. That's great. You're allowed to protest. The demands are a little bit muddled. No one's quite sure what you're protesting on anymore. And we all agree we want COVID to be over. No one disagrees with that. [chuckling] You know, I keep hearing that, you know, that Bar Robo needs to reopen immediately. There's thousands of people outside that, you know, we should sell our goods and wares to. You know, I just need to remind people that Bellville Wild Wings lost their liquor license because they weren't enforcing public health. Zucchinis Cucina in Oakville lost their liquor license because they weren't complying with public health orders. So, I mean, I've got rules I have to follow as a restaurateur. I just can't open the door and, you know, welcome whoever I want whenever I want. But I feel terrible for the staff, too. I mean, I've got within Bar Robo and the stage and so forth, we've got a dozen employees. There's another 30 people at work at the Queen Street Fare food hall. There's another 40 to 50 musicians and artists and sound technicians and stage technicians who lost a paycheque in this last two weeks almost of shows that we had to cancel at Bar Robo. The live music industry is in grave danger within this country.

PA: So, I mean, when you look at all of those losses that are piling up for all of those people, the workers, the owners, the musicians, the everybody, how much longer can you afford to stay closed?

SM: [chuckle] Well, that's a great question. [clears throat] I mean, a very committed group of downtown auto restaurateurs is creating a GoFundMe page four for us called the Ottawa Restaurant Fund. And it's committed that the money will go to support the employees, specifically of the restaurants that are being closed downtown. So I don't know how much longer we can go? You know, that this is emotionally very tiring to. You know, we in the restaurant business and hospitality business, we entertain, we please, we love welcoming customers. It's very frustrating that we can't do that right now.

PA: I bet I can't imagine. I'm sorry for what you're going through, and I'm just really grateful you made time to speak with us today.

SM: Thank you.

CH: Scott May is the owner of Bar Robo. He was in Ottawa.

[Music: Electronic]

First Nations Women Fines

CH: A group of women from a Manitoba First Nation say they've been slapped with unreasonable fines after making a trip to pick up food and diapers during a lockdown. Last month, eight members of the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation took a shopping trip to Thompson, Manitoba. Now, their community has issued seven of them 5000-dollar fines for breaking its self-imposed lockdown rules. Yolanda Hartie was on that shopping trip. She said they had no choice but to go -- since the community's grocery delivery system was backed up.

SOUNDCLIP

YOLANDA HARTIE: They only appointed eight to 10 people to shop for the whole reserve. And even two of us, we… we volunteered to help with the shopping because we knew it wasn't enough. But they ignored us. And then, we were having problems. Some of us were having problems contacting these shoppers, and they didn't want to answer our pleas for shopping because one of us… one of us, we’re a parent to a newborn. And they heard that there was no newborn Pampers at the store. And that person was trying to get a hold of the shoppers from… for two days, and they didn't answer them. So we all decided to go out as a group because we figured that they couldn't stop us. I think it's very… it's very unfair. They don't even… they don't even find people that much that are caught smuggling alcohol. And we weren't even bringing in alcohol. We were bringing groceries and supplies for our babies, our children. I’d like to see them dissolve these fines because I think it's very unjust. It's not right. We only went out to provide for our kids and exercise a basic human right. They shouldn't punish us with a $5,000 fine like that. Because my babies are running out of Pampers, and they're running out of food. We did what we had to.

CH: That was Yolanda Hartie in Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation in Manitoba. She spoke with our colleague Lenard Monkman. The community's chief has said that the intention was only to protect members from COVID -- and that he would like to see the fines reduced.

[Music: Glassy guitar riff]

Chimpanzee Insect Medicine

Guest: Simone Pika

CH: Chimpanzees are among the smartest creatures on Earth. They pick up on emotional cues, solve all kinds of complicated tasks, and show compassion to each other -- more so than humans, at times. Now a new study has found that when they're hurt, some chimps in Gabon self-medicate or medicate each other -- using insects. According to the researchers, this is the first documented observation of its kind. The study is published in the journal, Current Biology. Simone Pika is the lead author. We reached her in Osnabrück, Germany

PA: Simone, what was your reaction when you heard a chimp was spotted using insects to treat a wound?

SIMONE PIKA: [hearty laugh] Yeah, actually, I mean, we were pretty amazed. We looked at this video clip, and then we were like is it true what we are seeing here? What… what is she doing? So we saw this first video clip with a female where she's catching the insect, and she had inspected the wound of her son before. And then, she puts it between her lips and then puts it in the wound. And, you know, sometimes when you work with chimpanzees, and of course, this could be just one thing, and then it never happens again. You always look out for it.

PA: Right.

SP: But yeah, but we saw it again, and have now several observations, and we are still very much intrigued about it.

PA: And how did the recipient react when an insect is sort of crushed up [chuckling] and jammed into an open wound?

SP: Yeah, that's, of course, the interesting question. I mean, in the first event, he was totally relaxed. It was his mum doing it, who had also groomed him before. And although they are really having… I mean, these wounds are quite often big, and there's liquid coming out. They are not very beautiful. But still, there seems to be this special degree of trust between the animals doing it that they are… they just keep still and they, in a way, they know something good will happen to them.

PA: And do you get the sense in watching this that any old insect will do? Or were they trying to find certain bugs in particular?]

SP: No, it seems that they're really go for a specific one. So if you lose, if you have a look at the video of Susie, I mean, she's really looking in the bush. And then, she's going for a specific one. But concerning the insects. At the moment, we don't know really what's going on, meaning we haven't identified the species yet.

PA: And… but is there something… is there something that might be in insects in general that could help treat a wound?

SP: Yeah. So, for instance, in Asia, there is a huge usage of different kinds of insects, and they have all kinds of substances in it, which are antibacterial, antifungal, anti-virus. They work in anti-inflammatory, or maybe they just have a soothing, like a painkilling functions. So they are it's… yeah, super stuff in these insects.

PA: And if I've got this right, I understand chimps have already been shown that they know how to use medicinal herbs. Why is… why is insect behaviour significant?

SP: The use of secondary plant parts, that's a common phenomena across the animal kingdom. So, for instance, I think every… every dog owner knows it from the dog that the dog is sometimes eating special leaves, which are a little bit rough on the surface. And probably the dog has stomach upset and/or some intestinal parasites. And so, here it seems that the dogs, they are not learning it from others. This is probably genetic, right? So they are… they are born with it. But this particular behaviour, that another species is really going for an insect to treat a wound, this has never been observed. And it's also resulting in so much attention. So if this is happening, all the other chimps in the party, they are coming. They want to look at it. And they… they are totally interested. And so, we think they have to learn it. And it also could be a culture of behaviour in chimpanzees.

PA: So when you saw that video for the first time and realized what was happening, did you know right away that this is something we should try to explore and see if there's a trend here?

SP: No, of course, we are… we are researchers, right? [PA chuckles] So we are always very careful. And I… my main topic is communication and cognition. And [the man] who is running the field study with me, he's focussing on social behaviour and hormones. So, of course, first we were like, yeah, this is interesting, but maybe we are not experts of self-medication and medication. Maybe there have been some studies on that, right? So, we went back to the… to the book, we always go back to. And that's a book of Jane Goodall, 1986. In a way, you can find everything what the chimps at Goodall in this book.

PA: Right.

SP: She described everything, but she didn't see insect application. And so far, we haven't heard from anybody that their chimps are using it.

PA: So what do you do then? How do you figure out that it's not just a one-off?

SP: Yeah, I mean, we know if we only have one observation, then no journal will really publish it, right? So we know we need to get more examples. And so, after the behaviour, then we particularly focused on wounded chimpanzees, meaning we always have a team in the forest. And sometimes, we have several teams in the forest. This always depends to men or women power. But as soon as there was an animal with a wound, then we tried to follow that individual and really tried to film what the individual was doing with a wound. And then, over a 15-month period, we were able to record 76 wounds. And in around 25 per cent of these cases, they are catching insects, and they are applying them to the wounds.

PA: And what are the next steps? I mean, you still need to figure out what this insect is?

SP: Yeah. Yeah. So… [chuckle] so we have a plan. So we know it's sort of a flying insect. But then, they put it between their lips. They put it in the wound. They take it out again. So they are very, very tiny remains. But now, we talked with insect people. And so the idea is to always make a grit around the location where the chimp had been sitting. And then, really tear every little leaf around to really find insect remains. And, of course, there are also good techniques if you just have a little insect pieces. And based on this, you can find out which species is involved. And then, we could investigate which substances are in these species. But we also want to know who was doing it? Who is tolerating this behaviour? How is it learned? And the other part is, of course, we need to go and talk to other people from other field sites to find out is that something special for our community in our project or for the population in the national park? Or is this maybe a general chimpanzee behaviour?

PA: Well, listen, this has been fascinating to hear about. Thank you so much for this.

SP: Thank you very much. Take care.

PA: Bye.

CH: Simone Pika is the lead author of a new study on chimpanzees treating wounds with insects. We reached her in Osnabrück, Germany.

[Music: Peppy beat]

Gushue's Girls

Cool, cool, cool.

Unidentified: Cool, cool, cool. Cool, cool, cool.

CH: For Newfoundlanders, Olympic men's curling is personal. The team is based in Saint John's, and more than half of its members hail from the city -- including skip Brad Gushue. Tomorrow, they'll take to the ice in Beijing for the first time in these Games. And 10-thousand kilometres away, in a living room in Gander, Newfoundland, six of Mr. Gushue's most ardent fans hope to gather together urge him on. They're known for wearing pink t-shirts that spell out his name, and they go by the moniker "Gushue's Girls." The CBC spoke with Jeanne Collins, who holds a particularly critical position in the T-shirt lineup.

SOUNDCLIP

JEANNE COLLINS: I am the “G” in “Gushue”. We've been curlers and fans of curling for quite a long time. We actually became the Gushue Girls back at the Ottawa Briar in 2016. Just turned out that six of us were going to go to the Briar, and we thought, oh, wouldn't this be fun to get these shirts made, which we did. We're very confident. I mean, we're a very small province with a very big men's curling team. I mean, they are arguably among the best in the world, if not the best in the world. And on any given day, they can beat all the teams at that Olympics. We are so, so proud, as is the whole province. I mean, after all, at that last Olympics in Turin, there was almost a provincial holiday, just so people could watch that final game. The support that this team has is amazing, absolutely amazing. And the same right across the country. Even when we go to Briars away. Like, sometimes people will sheepishly say, well, you know, we're from northern Ontario, but we're really rooting for Gushue. So he has a huge fan base, and rightfully so. They're gentlemen, they're great players and they're fabulous to watch.

CH: That was Jeanne Collins in Gander, Newfoundland. The Canadian men's curling team has its first game of these Olympics on Wednesday, against Denmark.

[Music: Indie rock]

Part 3: Encore: Forgiveness Reunion

Cree Wordle

CH: Once a day, millions of people stare blankly at their computer or phone. Sometimes they break out in a grin and type in a five-letter word. And sometimes, they're on the verge of tears, whispering through clenched teeth, "there are NO WORDS with THESE LETTERS!" This is the phenomenon of Wordle. Which you've heard a lot about over the past couple of months. The simple, brilliant game has taken the world by storm. And inspired other game-makers to put their own spins on it. Aaron Fay is a Metis man who's put his software engineering skills to the test, and created a new version of Wordle -- in the Cree language.

SOUNDCLIP

AARON FAY: So, I follow this journalist on Twitter. And just happened to stumble across with tweet about Worlde… this Wordle thing. I didn't even know what Wordle was, but then it mentioned something about, hey, we should have this for, you know, Indigenous languages. And then, I saw another tweet from somebody else who I didn't know. Turns out he works for the National Research Council, and had adopted an open source version of this Wordle game for Indigenous languages. And so, it kind of rolled around in my head for a couple of days. And I thought, well, people are talking about this Wordle thing. Maybe I'll go look at the code. So the the work had already been laid out, and it really turned out to be kind of trivially easy to just adapt nêhiyawêwin based on work by a fellow at the FNU has a dictionary from nêhiyawêwin. The team at the UVA has been doing a whole bunch of work with that and just happens to have word lists in the digital format. So it was really just putting the pieces together and pushing it out there. I didn't really realize it was going to be quite so, so well-received, but I'm happy people are using it, so.

KYLE MUZYKA: One of the things that I think, you know, many Indigenous people, in general, but especially over the pandemic have been really clamouring for are ways to connect with the language. Just wondering from your perspective, like how important it is that… you know, that people are able to engage with the language in different ways, you know, whether it's online Zoom classes or playing a very popular five-letter word game once a day?

AF: it's critical, really. I mean, we are in immersion all the time in English. We… we hear it all the time. Our media is in English. You know, a few different areas, obviously, there's different languages, maybe French or something Spanish. But here, where languages are critically endangered, one of the things that we're lacking, critically, is the ability to immerse ourselves in the language. So one of the things that I think we try to do as learners is just absorb as much material, find as many ways as we can to stay engaged in the language learning process because it's hard. It's challenging. It's… it can feel like work. So if there's a way we can make that more fun, you know, we should have more TV shows, we should have more media in the language. We should have more ways that we can get contextual-based inputs into our brain in ways that we will remember those words and phrases and conversations. And one of the interesting things about this game. You know, I'll never forget the word from yesterday or the day before. I didn't even know they existed. And now that I know what they are, you know, they'll stick in my head forever. And that's… that's also important as learners, you know?

CH: That was Aaron Fay, creator of a Cree-language version of Wordle, speaking to CBC journalist Kyle Muzyka.

[Music: Banjo]

Encore: Forgiveness Reunion

CH: If you've been listening to the show over the past few weeks, you'll know it's a mistake to claim you remember every single one of Carol's As It Happens interviews. And you'll know that because when Carol made that claim, we decided to put her knowledge the test. Repeatedly. In public. But a lot of Carol's interviews definitely stick with you. Sometimes for years. And ever since she announced the news of her departure, we've been hearing from you about your favourites. There are the absurd, amusing, and downright asinine exchanges, of course. And we promise to play some of those. But you've also called in to tell us about the heartfelt and sometimes difficult interviews you remember. The interviews that moved you. And in the case of this caller, we absolutely agree.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Phone beep]

JIM TAYLOR: Hi, my name is Jim Taylor. I’m calling from Campbell River, British Columbia. And you were asking for suggestions for interviews that you did that you’d like to hear again. I’d love to hear the interview you did with the man who publicly forgave ISIS for beheading his son. And the interview was heard by a folk singer who wrote a song. And they got together, and you interviewed them together. I’d love to hear that interview again. Okay. Thanks very much. Love your show. Gonna miss you terribly, Carol.

[/sc]

CH: As It Happens listener Jim Taylor, requesting that we replay Carol's 2018 conversation with musician Peter Katz -- and the man who inspired him to write a song called "Forgiveness." Michael Berg first spoke with As It Happens in 2006, after the news broke that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi had been killed. Mr. al-Zarqawi was the leader of an Al Qaeda cell in Iraq, believed by some to be a predecessor to ISIS. And as you just heard, he was the man accused of beheading Mr. Berg's son, Nick. Which made Michael Berg's reaction to Mr. al-Zarqawi’s death unexpected. Here’s some of what he told As It Happens at the time.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHAEL BERG: Well, my reaction was a human reaction of sadness at the death of any fellow human being. And there were people that loved him, and there are people that are now suffering in the same vein that my family and I have suffered. But I cannot, and I will not ever justify revenge because that would justify my son's death.

CH: Michael Berg, speaking with As It Happens in 2006 about the death of his son's suspected murderer. That interview moved everyone who heard it, including, as we just head, Jim Taylor -- and Canadian musician, Peter Katz, who wrote a song inspired by Michael Berg. So per Jim's request, here now is an encore presentation of Carol's 2018 interview with Michael Berg and Peter Katz -- from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Hello, Michael.

MICHAEL BERG: Hello.

CO: And hello Peter, here in the studio with me.

PETER KATZ: Hello.

CO: It's extraordinary having both of you together.

PK: I feel that too, yes.

CO: Michael, I want to start with you because we heard some of your voice from that interview in 2006 in the introduction, and this is not long after you forgave your son's killer, someone who — a brutal murder of your son. And you said that you realized it was a response nobody wanted to hear. What did you mean by that?

MB: Well, people tried to talk me out of it. I think later that same day of that original interview Larry King interviewed me by telephone. And he kept saying ‘Well, come on Michael, this guy…’ And then he would be a lot more blunt than I would have wished him to be about what he did. And it just seemed like he just couldn't accept the fact, really as if he was accusing me of lying.

CO: And there was a lot of media coverage, right? And not just that, there were a lot of people who responded to you. People said horrible things to you, people in your face showing you photos and images and big banners of your son’s murder, and just so angry with you — someone took a shot at you. There was a bullet through a window at one point, it was just extraordinary.

MB: Yes, it was. Yes, it was.

CO: And how did you deal with that at the time?

MB: To tell you the truth, I think I was still pretty much living on adrenaline. And, as Peter said in his song, I felt like I had nothing left to lose. So I'm not normally as maybe brave or foolhardy as I was as far as exposing myself to possible dangers back then.

CO: You call yourself — you said ‘I'm in the ‘nothing left to lose club’ I think you said in our interview.

MB: Right. Right. Well, there were a lot of us back in the day. You know, I knew a lot of people who had lost children in the war and that's what we called ourselves.

CO: But you came to this point of forgiving al-Zarqawi not immediately. This is something that was a process, it took some months — about half-a-year — and you were describing that to us when we spoke to you in 2006. I just want to play a bit of what you said at that time.

SOUNDCLIP

MB: I have to admit that it took a little bit of time. I never once asked for revenge against him because I knew that that was wrong. I knew that my son would say that that was wrong. But it took me a while, about half-a-year, I think, before I came to the point where I can honestly say that I forgave him. One day I opened up a catalogue that came in the mail that offered a course at nearby Immaculata University that was entitled to ‘Forgiveness: The way to love in a wounded world’ And I thought ‘I'm not a Catholic. I'm not a Christian. Not even a very good Jew, or even much of anything, but I have to take that course.’ And I took that course then I learned what forgiveness is all about.

CO: That was from 2006. Michael what did that course teach you about forgiveness?

MB: Well, I think one of the biggest things that it taught me was that to forgive someone is not to condone what they did. I certainly don't condone what Zarqawi did but it's basically, I would say, not to hate — and it is a process. This sister, Sister Sheila Callaghan, who taught that course at Immaculata said forgiveness is like quitting cigarettes. Sometimes you have to do it over and over again. So it is a process. And she was just so great in presenting things in such a way that anybody could accept them and explaining the nuances of the differences between condoning and forgiving and other things that people often confuse. Ultimately, forgiveness is for the person being forgiven, it's for the person who's doing the forgiving. And it changed my outlook on life in general, on my relations with people especially people close to me. And it's still a tremendous factor in my life.

CO: Is it fair to say that that course changed the course of your life?

MB: It certainly did. It's very fair to say.

CO: And Peter, I think it's safe to say that interview and Michael's words changed your life, didn't it?

PK: Yeah, they did. I just got emotional just listening to it again. And, I mean, it's funny just listening to it in today's Times, 12 years later and realizing that that message is still more important than ever. And at the time I was listening to Michael and as I was listening to this interview I just wasn't expecting the way that it was going to unfold and the reaction that he was describing. And when I found out later in the interview that people called him a coward and had shot at him I just said ‘Hang on a second, the message that this man is saying is that the most courageous, brave choice I've ever heard somebody ever make.’ And it felt like the antidote to this escalating hatred that was happening in the world, and just listening to it again today and it's still the answer. It still remains the answer, it still remains more important than ever. So I’m just so struck by it.

CO: Do you remember the details the situation in which you listened to Michael in this interview?

PK: Yeah, I was I was driving along in my car — and Canadian musician spend a lot of time driving across Canada a lot of time listen to CBC and I would always listen As It Happens. And, you know, it's just one of those things it's on and you're listening to it and you're taking it in. But it's one of those interviews that I just kind of zeroed in on as I clued into what was being said. And to me the part that I was very moved just by Michael's reaction in and of itself, it was a very unexpected reaction. But what really kind of jolted me into action was the fact that, like I said, people shot at him and called him a coward and just put him through even more hell than I — I don't have a son, I don't know what it's like to lose one, let alone into the circumstances that Michael lost Nick. So when I found out that that people were doing that to him I just said that to me is just unconscionable and I need to do something about that and I need to somehow amplify his message. And yeah, the context of it was al-Zarqawi was this target and they were like ‘Hey, we got him and yay victory, mission accomplished,’ that kind of lingo. And they were using, I mean — I don't want to speak for Michael on this — but they were using Nick in the murder of al-Zarqawi as a reason to justify what they were doing.

CO: Revenge.

PK: Yeah.

CO: And the lyrics of your song, I'm just going to read the chorus then we're going to hear it later on so people know — they're not going to miss that. “So I guess I'm going to have to try forgiveness because man, you know, that's all that I've got left. My boy did not deserve this but neither do the rest. I guess I'm going to have to try forgiveness.” How did those words come to you?

PK: Those words came to me right away. I think I pulled over and wrote down those words. And then, as is often the case for me with writing, I kind of have the initial thing and then I knew I needed to just be with it because sometimes the sort of surface reaction is not deep enough and I immediately just cared about it so deeply and I and I knew that I was going to be singing in Michael's voice so I wanted to do it properly. It wasn't just about channeling my own feelings about it. I really wanted to amplify his voice. That was the goal. So I wrote those words down and then I actually ended up seeking out a copy of the interview that you guys had done. And I transcribed it, just so I could kind of practice putting words together in the way that Michael put words together, and really then just kind of worked from there and very carefully put it together.

CO: Michael, when you first heard the song, what was your reaction?

MB: I was overcome, I was totally overcome that in light of all the negative reactions that I had that someone would have such an understanding of what I meant and be so kind and so generous in his respect. It just overcame me. It still does every time I hear it.

CO: The two of you became friends, didn't you?

MB: We did. We still are.

PK: Yeah.

CO: What was the friendship based on? Was it just this moment or did you find you took it to a deeper place?

PK: Luke, who was Nick's next best friend, organized a concert and they created a scholarship in Nick's name they called it Berg-a-palooza and they invited me down to come perform at that concert. And so I went down to West Chester, Pennsylvania. And I stayed in guestroom Luke's house where he told me that Nick would have spent much time and then we did this concert. And I got to meet Michael, we went for coffee together in the afternoon and then I played this concert. And I stood on a stage, and in my view were Nick's friends and family and teachers and Michael and I got to play the song and my whole body shaking just thinking about that moment and how touched I felt to be able to do that and contribute in that way. Snd then several years in a row I went down and did that and then Michael and I were also invited to give a symposium on forgiveness at a college in Philadelphia in 2012 and we got to spend even more time together then, and I remember going for a long walk together in a park and just just enjoying our time together.

CO: I believe a generation difference, isn't there? I mean you would be closer to Nick's age.

PK: Yeah, yeah, I'm in my mid-30s, so I guess about the same as Nick would have been, is that right Michael?

MB: Nick would be 40, so pretty close.

PK: Five years younger, yeah.

CO: I’m was speaking with singer/songwriter Peter Katz, who wrote a song called Forgiveness inspired by an interview and As It Happens with Michael Berg, a man who is on the line from Norfolk, Virginia is someone who forgave his son's killer in Iraq. And I think we need to hear the song I think at this point. So I'm going to ask you to play it for us.

SOUNDCLIP

PETER KATZ SINGING:

You ask me to explain it

Well there’s everything and nothing to say

Some things they happen

And once they do they never go away

They tell you that this life is eye for eye

Well man you know I think that’s all a lie

Oh I will not stoke the fire of this fight, when I know it isn’t right

So I guess I’m going to have to try forgiveness

‘Cause man you know it’s all that I’ve got left

My boy did not deserve this, but neither do the rest

I guess I’m going to have to try forgiveness

You can call me a coward

Call me whatever you chose

Once you could have hurt me

But now, I’ve nothing left to lose

Go on and spite me ‘cause I will not curse his name

Tell me though I’m broken, I am to blame

Well go on, but I won’t participate, in spreading all this hate

So I guess I’m going to have to try forgiveness

‘Cause man you know it’s all that I’ve got left

My boy did not deserve this, but neither do the rest

I guess I’m going to have to try forgiveness

They shot at me for speaking out against this tired war

Said "How can you lose one life and not demand one more?"

Well what good will it do us in the end?

There’s nothing that should justify revenge

And I stand now here before you

Living out the hardest test

And still I swear the only answer is: …forgiveness

Forgiveness

Oh you know we’ve got to try forgiveness

‘Cause man you know it’s all that we’ve got left

Our boys and girls are watching and they’ve put us to the test

Come let's show them forgiveness

MB: Wow.

CO: It’s fair to say there is not a dry eye in the house here. Michael, I don't know how you're dealing with that.

MB: It's very moving. Very, very moving. Peter has a real talent at touching on emotion.

CO: I think he is a real talent at feeling it. There's a depth to that that, yeah, can only come from an inspiration though Michael and you were the inspiration.

MB: I don’t know what to say.

PK: It’s true, Michael. When I heard your voice on the radio that day I just, I felt like you were one of the bravest people that I have ever heard and it's been such a pleasure to get to know you and call you my friend. And I really just, I feel honored that I get to be of service to your message. And in my career that was the very, very beginning of me as a singer/songwriter and kind of testing the waters. And that song really was the affirmation that I needed, the confirmation that I needed that there was a place for my voice, so it's also changed my life in many ways.

MB: Well, you gave me hope for the human race because, as I said before, so much of the reaction was so very, very negative. And on that day that Zarqawi died, the interview with CBC, I think was the only one that was not adversarial. Your reaction has to be the most positive reaction I ever got to anything I said. And you did it with such emotion and love. I mean, you can just feel it through the words and your voice.

CO: What do you think your son Nicholas would think of all these developments, from the song to our conversation, how would you respond?

MB: Well, I don't know because he was a very modest and shy, in a way, person. And he probably wouldn't like all the publicity or people saying good things about him, I guess. I mean, he was just that kind of a person and his political views very different from mine. But, I think I said this in the original interview, he once told me that although our views were different he was proud of me for getting out and expressing mine — as I was of him for doing what he believed in.

CO: Peter, I can tell you have something you want to say to Michael and I’m going to just ask you if you want to have the last word here?

PK: I just wanted to say to you, Michael, you know, I wish I could have gotten to know Nick, but I feel like as the son of somebody, I know that he would be really proud of you and what you've done. And I'm really proud of you and I also want you to know, Michael, that I don't see you as a God-figure or something and I've appreciated that you haven't tried to paint yourself as anything other than a human being. You've always made me feel like this is a real thing, it doesn't take other worldly powers to be able to make a choice like you made it. It just takes that tapping into your humanity and doing the hard thing. Your message of forgiveness has helped me through the last twelve years in an immense way, and that moment of hearing your voice on the radio that day and writing that song just fundamentally changed my life in a huge way. So thank you.

MB: You deserve all the success you've had. And I too wish that Nick could have been on that walk in Wissahickon Park that you and I took. That would have been great.

CO: I admire both of you and I appreciate so much to have a chance to speak with you have you both together. Thank you both.

MB: You're welcome.

PK: Bye, Michael.

MB: Bye, Peter.

CH: Michael Berg is an anti-war activist whose son, Nick, was killed by Al-Qaeda in 2004. Peter Katz is a musician who was inspired by his story. Which inspired us to revisit their 2018 conversation -- as well as some other musical gems from the Carol Off archives, including a conversation with the teacher and singer behind a stunning version of The Beatles' "Blackbird" in the Mi'kmaq language. We'll re-air that interview tomorrow.

February 8, 2022 Episode Transcript

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