Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2023

The AIH transcript for May 30, 2023

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann, sitting in for Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

HM: Flame war. As crews in the Halifax area continue to battle the wildfires, we'll reach a local councillor who's surveyed the damage first-hand. She says what the fire will do next is still anyone's guess.

CH: Learning curb. Another pioneer of artificial intelligence calls for a global effort to mitigate the "risk of extinction" it poses -- and urges Canada to move faster to regulate a technology that's moving too fast.

HM: Counter-point of Pride. In the wake of multiple anti-LGBTQ bills, Pride celebrations are being cancelled across Florida. But our guest says no matter how many parties are off, their county intends to party on.

CH: The heir a little too apparent. Japan's Prime Minister fires one of his top aides after a public outcry -- which will make family dinners awkward, since the aide is his son.

HM: In perfect alignment. An astrophysicist says nothing gives New Yorkers a sunny disposition like the sun's position during the illuminating phenomenon known as "Manhattanhenge".

CH: And… Edam and weep. It was all downhill right from the start -- but the Canadian who awoke from being knocked out to find she'd won a legendary British cheese-rolling race tells us she's conscious of what she's achieved.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that sets your mind at cheese.

Part 1: Nova Scotia Fire Damage, Florida Pride Cancellations, Canadian Cheese Winner

Nova Scotia Fire Damage

Guest: Pam Lovelace

CH: People in the Halifax region are still very much on edge. The out-of-control wildfire that forced thousands from their homes continues to burn. Today, hundreds of residents got the news that their houses had been damaged or destroyed. And everyone is still being told to stay away. Officials say the fire hasn't grown in size -- but there is worry that rising winds and hot temperatures might fan the flames. Pam Lovelace is the councillor for Hammonds Plains -- where much of the destruction has happened. We reached her in Halifax.

HM: Pam, you have just had a tour of the damage. Tell us what you saw.

PAM LOVELACE: I did. It was quite shocking to see the devastation from this, you know, close up in this disaster area. It was incredible to speak with first responders, RCMP, provincial conservation officers, firefighters, obviously. There's about 100 of them combing through the boundary of this fire to try to contain it. And we're very grateful that it has not grown. So, weather dependent, obviously. But our fingers crossed that, that the rain comes and this fire will be put at bay.

HM: What is left of the homes and structures that were in the path of the fire?

PL: So, this was, this is what's been referred to as a dirty fire. It wasn't that there was a single path of this fire. At one point, the flames were up 100 feet. And with the wind pushing those embers, it created a lot of spot fires. And so, you can see a home that burnt down and the garage next to it looks just fine, or a garage that's completely gone and the house looks perfectly fine. [not funny chuckle] It's one of those kind of situations where the firefighters had to ensure that when they were in the zone of that fire that they were not being pushed out or potentially come into harm's way because the fire was travelling above them because the flames were so high. But, you know, I've been speaking with community members here in Black Point at the comfort centre, and they're just so grateful for all of the support that they're getting from the community and looking forward to, you know, understanding if their home is still standing, if they are going to be able to eventually go back. Those, you know, those homes obviously are more than just a structure. They are so important to our community and to the well-being of people. You know, it's all hands on deck at this point. It's not just about, you know, what's happened with the fire and their structures, but what happens next.

HM: What was it like for you to see close up what has happened to the homes of your friends and neighbours?

PL: Oh, it was, it was, well, it was devastating. It was, I feel, I feel numb. I, you know, my, my home is also in the evacuation area. So, you know, I just kept thinking about what, what would I do at this point in time? The most important time is to take care of yourself, to take care of each other, to support each other, each other during, you know, while being in this nightmare. And as we move out of this nightmare and finally begin to reduce that evacuation zone, if we're able to, then it's a matter of helping people, you know, get back into their communities and understand what to watch for when it comes to any emerging fire.

HM: Is your own home, is your own property okay?

PL: I am told that currently right now, I didn't get to see my home, but I'm told that currently right now my home is okay. But that being said, if the wind shifts, I could, you know, we, we could have a, a change in where that fire is going. There's a lot of dry fuel right now that feeds the hungry fire. And so, with these conditions being very dry and very hot and the wind is picking up, the shift of wind can carry, can carry that fire to another area.

HM: We spoke yesterday to one resident of the Hammonds Plains area who was very frustrated that he had heard nothing about his family home. Why aren't residents being kept updated on the status of their properties?

PL: Well, part of the problem is we don't know how to reach them, so they need to reach out to us, and they need to let us know through our registry online that, or to call 3-1-1, that they have been evacuated. And so that we have their cell phone number, their name, their civic address, and we can be able to reach out to them. But obviously, you know, yesterday, I think we had 4,000 people contact the 3-1-1 centre to register. But we're talking about, you know, well over 16,000 people that we need to reach. And so, as people let us know where they are, and we've done a very clear and thorough understanding of the civic addresses that have been affected. The last thing we want to do is to tell a family that, that their home has been destroyed when in fact, it hasn't. So it has to be a very careful, compassionate approach to help folks, you know, not only understand that, that they've lost their home, but to help them find the resources they need because there is a significant grieving process that comes from this very, very traumatic event.

HM: Our guest yesterday also told us that there was no emergency alert when the fire was approaching. No police or fire trucks were there to help people evacuate the area. Are you concerned about the emergency response to this disaster?

PL: No, not at all. We had emergency response immediately. We had multiple -- dozens, actually -- of fire vehicles and apparatus right away. This, the issue that we had was that we went from a three-alarm fire to a five-alarm fire within minutes. And so, jumping out to an uncontrolled wildfire so quickly meant that we needed to call in other resources. We needed air support from the province, which was requested. So, no, there was incredible support on the ground.

HM: How do you begin to get through this as a community? What are the next steps?

PL: So the next steps at this point really is to shut down this fire and to help people find accommodations once they are notified of the fact that they do not have a house to move into. Once this fire has ended and this fire alert has closed, and we shut down the local emergency, state of emergency. And then the firefighters that are just going non-stop to ensure that they just don't let up, that they keep fighting this fire and that we come to an end soon.

HM: Well, Pam, I hope people are able to get the fire under control, that your own property and those of your neighbours don't suffer any further damage. Thank you.

PL: Thank you, Helen. I appreciate it. And thank you for your concern.

HM: Okay, Bye.

PL: Bye.

CH: Pam Lovelace is the councillor for Hammonds Plains -- where much of the destruction happened. We reached her in Halifax.

[“Succession” music?]

Florida Pride Cancellations

Guest: Danielle Olivani

CH: Across the state of Florida, organizations are cancelling Pride celebrations. And the main reason they're giving is that state laws have created "a climate of fear and hostility" for LGBTQ people. Earlier this month alone, Governor Ron DeSantis signed bills restricting gender-affirming medical care for minors, limiting what schools can teach about sex and gender, and targeting drag performances where minors are present. But despite the tension, the community of Lake County in Central Florida still intends to go ahead with its first-ever Pride Day in a few weeks. Danielle Olivani is the president of the Lake County Pride Organization. We reached them in Mount Dora, Florida.

HM: Danielle, why have you decided to go ahead with the inaugural Pride event in Lake County when others in your state are cancelling their events?

DANIELLE OLIVANI: Well, I believe that we need to stand with our community now more than ever. We need to stand together and speak out collectively against this biased, unconstitutional legislation prohibiting drag entertainers. There's nothing inherently lascivious or lewd about our community, and we should be able to assemble just, just as anyone else assembles.

HM: Have the new laws made you change anything about the drag performances planned for this event?

DO: Yes, they have. Of course, I have the utmost faith in my performers to abide by the guidelines. But obviously, we had to have a conversation about clothing choice, song choice. The bill specifically mentions prosthetics such as chest plates and things like that. Obviously, no profanity. So, so, yes, we are, we are working within the guidelines to avoid any sort of problems, but definitely are standing strong and defying the law.

HM: How did it feel for you to have to tell drag performers that they have to change their acts to participate?

DO: It feels terrible. It's very unfortunate. I'm certainly never one to tell an artist how to perform or what they should wear, what they should do. That's completely up to them. But Lake County Pride has always been marketed and designed as a family event. We certainly wouldn't do anything inappropriate in front of children prior to the law being put in place. So, we're just going forward with our plan as we have and going to put on a great, a great show that everyone can take part in.

HM: And how did the performers react to this guidance that they have to follow?

DO: They are completely okay with it. Of course, they understand. The safety and security is of the utmost importance to all of us. Performers, myself, the attendees, my board. So, we, we have to do this in order to keep everyone safe. So, they're, they're okay with it.

HM: You know, you mentioned keeping people safe. One of the concerns that some other jurisdictions are citing in cancelling their events is security. Do you feel confident that you will be able to keep everyone at the event safe?

DO: I do. I do feel confident We're working directly with the police in Tavares, Florida. They will be providing security, security for the event. Obviously, we have other things put in place. We live in Lake County, Florida. And Lake County, Florida is an extremely red, conservative Christian area. So, we were already prepared for protesters. But, as you know, protesters have guidelines they need to follow as well. So if they don't follow those guidelines, they will be removed from the event.

HM: Supporters of these, these new laws say that they've been put in place to protect children. What do you think they are intended to do?

DO: They’re dog whistles. Basically, Governor DeSantis is trying to completely eradicate us from society. These laws are designed to stoke fear and to basically make us retreat, make us go back into the closet, not celebrate our community, not honour our community. It's all about fear and control, and we just refuse to submit to that.

HM: Well, you say it's important for you to stand and fight, but do you know people who are leaving the state as a result of the laws?

DO: I do. I do. I know our, our organization, a very small grassroots non-profit, we deal a lot with young people and families, either LGBTQIA teens and young adults, sometimes younger kids and parents. And because of the restrictive laws that have been put in place as far as transgender health care with youth, I know several families that either have already moved or are planning to move out of the state. And just older people, all age ranges, who just do not feel safe here right now, and they feel they have to leave.

HM: And what effect does it have on them to leave their community?

DO: Well, I mean, I'm sure it's devastating. You, you create a life in a state that you love, a state that you pay taxes in, and you're not being represented. You're not being protected. And, you know, we all deserve those things, and they're afforded to us in the constitution. So, I'm sure they're devastated by that. It's also a privilege to be able to leave, and many of us do not have that privilege. So that should also be mentioned, you know?

HM: What message do you hope to send in staying and in carrying forward with these kinds of events?

DO: Right now, I want to give our community hope. I want to give our community hope that we're standing up to the fascist laws that have been put in place to restrict our community and that are clearly biased towards our community. Nothing can stop us, and we're moving forward for love of our community.

HM: Are you seeing support from any allies?

DO: Oh yes, the majority of people, not only here in Lake County, but I think throughout Florida, are just sick of this culture war nonsense. Sick of the demonization of our community and want to see things change. We want to move forward as a community. I believe that most people do not have a problem with this event, and it's just that small group of people who object, you know, and we expect that. We're prepared for it.

HM: Danielle, best of luck with the event. Thank you very much for talking to us.

DO: Thank you so much, Helen. Take care.

HM: Bye-bye.

CH: Danielle Olivani is the President of the Lake County Pride Organization. We reached them in Mount Dora, Florida.

[international instrumental]

Canadian Cheese Winner

Guest: Delaney Irving

CH: Right now, Delaney Irving is doing something a lot of 19-year-old Canadians do. Before heading to Vancouver Island University in the fall, she is backpacking across Europe with a friend. But in the middle of that trip, she's done something no other 19-year-old Canadian has done. She has chased a much-coveted wheel of cheese down a dangerously steep hill and become a champion by catching it. Yesterday, Ms. Irving won the storied Cooper's Hill cheese rolling race near Gloucestershire, England. Even more remarkable, she won it after being knocked unconscious. We reached Delaney Irving in London, England.

HM: Delaney, first of all, how's your body holding up? How are you doing?

DELANEY IRVING: [chuckling] Pretty good. Yeah, my head definitely hurts a little bit. And then I have some scrapes and bruises, but other than that, I'm doing way better than I thought I'd be doing.

HM: Wow. Before we get to your specific story, there are going to be people who don't know anything about this race. Describe how, how it works for us.

DI: Yeah. So, there are a few different categories. There's a few men's races and then one woman's race. So, everyone goes and lines up at the start of the hill. It's a count to four. So, on the count of three, the cheese is pushed down the hill. Count of four, everyone goes running after. After that, it's just mayhem, people are falling everywhere. Yeah, that's kind of how it works.

HM: And this is a large disc of cheese. How big is it?

DI: Yes, it's very large. It weighs about seven pounds, I believe.

HM: So, it goes rolling down the hill. And then the people, like crazy, people go after it.

DI: Yeah, exactly.

HM: So, you were backpacking around Europe. How did you end up at the top of Cooper’s Hill?

DI: Yeah, so my friend and I had decided to backpack, and then her dad wanted to go see the race. And we also thought it would be great to go watch. So, we met him in England. And originally, we were just going to watch the race, but we decided about two days ago we were going to run in it, so it was a very last-minute decision, but I'm definitely glad we did it.

HM: Did you know how steep the hill was when you made the decision to run? [both chuckle]

DI: Yeah, so the day before the race, we walked to the top of the hill, looked down, and I thought, this is crazy. There's no way we're actually going to do this. But I think just with the excitement of the whole crowd on the day of the race, we just had to do it.

HM: So, as you're waiting for that count, what was going through your mind?

DI: I was looking around, and all the girls that I was racing with were super sweet. So we're all saying, good luck, don't get hurt too much. As soon as I saw the cheese start rolling and everyone counted to four, I just, I kind of blacked out from there. I started rolling down the hill. I remember running at the very end of it. And then the very last tumble is when I lost consciousness for about two minutes. So, I don't remember much after that.

HM: Did you have a strategy when you, when you started?

DI: Yeah, I did. I knew that I would be falling. I knew I wouldn't be able to stay on my feet. So, my strategy was as soon as I felt myself falling, I would just kind of tuck into a roll, try not to hurt myself too much, and then roll as far as I could until I could stand up again.

HM: Do you remember what you were feeling like as you were going down? Were there sort of divots and bumps? Any rocks?

DI: Yeah. So, as soon as I started going, I was rolling for almost the whole race. It was quite a blur, but I do remember feeling a lot of pain on my back, I think, from different divots and rocks. When I finally got on my feet, I thought, oh, this is great. I'm almost at the end. And then I did that big fall.

HM: And you did that big fall, and you knocked yourself out.

DI: [chuckle] Yes, knocked myself out. I was unconscious rolling past the finish line.

HM: Wow. So you're at the bottom of the hill. You've rolled over the finish line. You're knocked out. When are you aware that you actually won?

DI: So, I woke up about two minutes after I was knocked out. And there are some pictures. I took some pictures with the cheese, but I honestly don't remember it. So I regained consciousness probably 10 minutes after that, when I was in the medical tent. That's when I fully realized that I had won the race. So, there was probably about 10 minutes where I don't really remember much.

HM: What did they say to you?

DI: [chuckling] My friend was in the tent with me, and she just said, you won. And I kept asking her if I actually won. I couldn't believe it. There was just a big block of cheese on my lap, and I just couldn't really believe it.

HM: Wait a minute. They planted the cheese on your lap while you're recovering?

DI: [laughing] Yes.

HM: That's, that's a big chunk of cheese to be sitting there.

DI: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, it was.

HM: So, do you like cheese?

DI: I do like cheese, yeah. I'm excited to eat it.

HM: So, what's happened with this wheel of cheese?

DI: Yes, I have it right now in my hotel room. And then, I'm leaving for Canada. So, hopefully, we will not have any problems in the airport with this cheese. And then I'm just going to bring it back, and I'm going to eat it when I get home.

HM: Do you know what the rules are for carrying cheese between countries?

DI: No, I'm not too sure.

HM: Well, I really, I hope you get to enjoy the cheese. Tell me about your family. I mean, are they looking forward to tasting it? What did they make of this whole adventure of yours?

DI: Yeah, they're definitely very excited. So, I didn't tell them I would be racing in it, just that I would be watching it. So, after the race, my friend and I called my parents, and they just couldn't believe it. But they're really excited that I won. Super excited for me to come back. And [chuckle] eat the cheese with them.

HM: They weren't annoyed you put yourself at risk?

DI: My, my mom was a little upset, for sure. But she is happy I didn't tell her beforehand because she would just be worrying a lot.

HM: Let's make clear here. Are you sure you're okay? Have you been checked out by a doctor?

DI: Yes. Yeah. I went to the hospital. I got a CT scan. I'm all good.

HM: So, you don't have a concussion or anything?

DI: No.

HM: Oh, good. I'm glad. So, has this taken the cake for your, for your backpacking trip?

DI: Definitely. It was definitely a great end to the trip.

HM: Are you going to go back and try and defend your title?

DI: I'm not too sure. I think, for sure, I will go back next year, probably with my family and watch. I'm not sure if I'm going to be running it again, but you never know. I didn't think I would be running it this year, so.

HM: Maybe don't press your luck. [laughing]

DI: Yes. Yeah.

HM: Well, congratulations. I think you're brave, and I'm glad you won.

DI: Thank you very much.

HM: Okay. Enjoy the rest of your trip.

DI: Thank you.

CH: Delaney Irving is a 19-year-old Canadian who won the annual cheese rolling race at Cooper’s Hill. She's in London.

[funk]

Japanese PM Dismisses Son

CH: Now, it's time for The Daily Headscratcher.

[not a theme because this is not a segment. But this is an instrumental that inspires confusion]

CH: Today's headscratcher is plucked from the headlines. A prime minister calls his executive policy secretary into his office. "Listen," he says, "you're very qualified for your job. But you had a party in my official residence, and took some unfunny photos -- which have been leaked to the public. That's the last straw: you're fired, effective immediately!" The executive policy secretary replies, "I'm sorry I let you down… Dad!!" How can this be?

[music swells and fades]

CH: Now, of coursem, the prize for solving today's headscratcher is $8,000! Just send your answers to As It Happens, PO Box -- pardon? Sorry, just a sec. Oh, Okay. Sorry. My director, John, says we're running short, so the contest is off, and I have to just tell you the answer. Which is: the executive policy secretary is the son of Japanese Prime Minister Fumio Kishida! Yesterday, Prime Minister Kishida announced that he had fired his son for having some friends over to the PM's residence in December, where they took some not-very-silly pictures. What's weird about the not-exactly-scandal is that the party and the pictures are considered unacceptable. Not the fact that the Prime Minister had hired his own son. It turns out, it's just not unusual for Japanese officials to give their family members jobs, even when they're accused of nepotism, the definition of which is "giving your family members jobs". So, Mr. Kishida didn't fire his son because he never should have hired his son. He fired him over a mildly inappropriate party. Seems strange. But I guess it's all relative.

[pop]

Part 2: Canada A.I. Regulation, Manhattanhenge

Canada A.I. Regulation

Guest: Yoshua Bengio

CH: The warning is straightforward and stark. Quote, "Mitigating the risk of extinction from A.I. should be a global priority, alongside other societal-scale risks such as pandemics and nuclear war." Unquote. A single sentence that serves as a call to action from more than 350 leaders in the field. The statement comes from the non-profit Center for AI Safety. The signatories include executives and scientists who work in artificial intelligence. There are also big-name A.I. pioneers like Geoffrey Hinton -- who you heard on this show a few weeks ago, warning that unchecked A.I. could spell the end of humanity -- and Yoshua Bengio. Now, Professor Bengio -- who teaches at the Université de Montreal -- also has specific words of warning for the Canadian government. We reached him in Montreal.

HM: Professor Bengio, this is stark language from you and the others who signed this statement. Why compare artificial intelligence to pandemics and nuclear war?

YOSHUA BENGIO: Well, imagine that we used biotechnology to build a new species that would be much smarter than humans. I think we could be scared. Humans have not been very good with other species up to now. And this is an analogy. But essentially, that's what's going on when we build gradually more powerful A.I. systems. They've made a lot of progress, especially with the recent -- like, ChatGPT and so on -- they passed the threshold of essentially passing for human. That they can master language, we could have a discussion and not know if we're talking to a human or a machine. And people thought this would be science fiction or something coming in decades from now, but it's here. These systems still have gaps to human intelligence, but maybe those gaps will be filled in just a few years, maybe not. Because of that possibility, we need to be very careful.

HM: So, how quickly is this technology developing? Why would it pose such an enormous potential threat?

YB: Well, again, imagine that we created entities that were smarter than us. If we don't do it right, they might do actions that end up hurting us just because they're trying to preserve themselves or achieve goals that end up harming us. I'm not saying it will happen, but it's clearly something we can conceive as plausible. And even though I and others think that there are ways we could build these systems that would be safe, it doesn't mean that everyone, you know, every country or every organization is going to follow those guidelines.

HM: You mentioned that this is something that we often thought of as the stuff of science fiction. I keep thinking when I hear these warnings about those Terminator movies and the threat of annihilation. What kinds of systems are you talking about when you say that you're concerned we will lose control?

YB: So, first of all, the pictures from the movies are a bit misleading because, at least for the foreseeable future, we don't see A.I. systems that can do a good job of controlling the physical world with a body like robots. Right now, the amazing progress that we've seen is with controlling language. But the thing is, with language, you can influence people. You can, for example, go on the web and pay people for doing jobs. And you don't even need to be a human for that to work. It's been demonstrated recently. And you can influence people. You can, you can convince them of doing something. And we know humans are very influenceable, and they've done crazy things under the influence. So, so, these are the sort of dangers we need to be on the lookout for. Now, not exactly the kind of, you know, gun, big, big muscled robot that we've seen in the movies.

HM: We spoke recently with your fellow Turing Award winner, Geoffrey Hinton, and he also warned about A.I. potentially taking over and spelling the end of people. He also signed the statement. But the third A.I. pioneer who won that award with you, Yann LeCun, who is Meta's chief scientist A.I. scientist, he is not. He's expressed, in fact, deep skepticism about the idea that machines might come to dominate or destroy humans. And believes that it will actually bring about a new renaissance. So, I'd like to ask you what we asked Geoffrey Hinton. Is it possible you're wrong?

YB: Absolutely. I hope I'm wrong. The problem is I've heard Yan's arguments and other people who believe like him that, you know, we don't need to worry. And I haven't been convinced by their arguments, which doesn't mean they're wrong. And I haven't been able to convince them either, right? So, what I see is that there is enough uncertainty and enough at stake, like humanity's future, or at least potentially catastrophic outcomes for humanity, that it's worth going the, the prudent route and start thinking of how we can at least minimize those potential risks.

HM: So, how do we do that? What should global leaders be doing to, to prevent potential disaster. And, and maybe steer things in a more positive direction when it comes to how we can harness or use A.I.?

YB: Well, the first step is to set up a governance system. To set up regulatory bodies in different countries and internationally. Because all of the risks, the short-term ones, you know, harm coming from discrimination, issues with privacy, these information risks which are also, like, very, very, very serious. All of these need better governance, and it takes time. So, we need to accelerate that -- locally and internationally.

HM: You, you recently spoke out about efforts Canada's made to regulate A.I. You warned Ottawa is moving too slowly on some fronts. What are the urgent measures Canada could put in place more quickly?

YB: So, one of the dangers that I see potentially affecting us strongly in the short term is disinformation. These systems can talk to us and convince us. But now, imagine that, that you could have tens of millions of accounts in Canada that are actually A.I. systems talking individually to each of us and trying to steer us in voting one way or another. And it's not a hard cry from the current large language models that you could achieve this. At least there's, there's a reasonable possibility that it could be done in a matter of months. And you wouldn't need, like, billions of dollars. So, what we could do is, first of all, to make it punishable in a very severe way to counterfeit humans, to pass for a human when it's just a machine. Of course, the entity that needs to be punished here is the human behind this operation. And then, we need to see how do we enforce that, right? So, for example, we could ask social media companies to make sure that their users are real humans or corporations that have been identified in person or something, and that would make it harder for bad actors to create fake accounts that could do these things.

HM: Well, how confident are you that those that have power to act -- in Ottawa and elsewhere -- will listen to you? I'm thinking particularly when they're dealing with corporations that have a financial imperative. When you're dealing occasionally with rogue actors. When you're talking about a kind of competition that some have compared to the arms race?

YB: Well, I believe that most politicians -- here in Canada, at least -- are people of goodwill. Now, I think the main problem is that they're too busy with other things, that their bandwidth is limited. And so, having the discussions like we have today is going to help to push things in the right direction at the political level. And even if I thought it would be difficult to convince governments, it would still be worthwhile for me to try.

Think of climate change activists. Sometimes, they might feel desperate. Oh, it's not moving. Is not moving enough, fast enough. But they continue because this is the right moral thing to do.

HM: Well, Professor Bengio, it sounds like this is one of the key interests of our time. I expect we will hear more from you. Thank you for talking with us today.

YB: My pleasure.

HM: All right. Goodbye.

YB: Bye.

CH: Yoshua Bengio is a professor of computer science at the Université de Montreal.

[‘90s movie instrumental]

WPG Wild Turkeys

CH: Lately, a couple of out-of-towners have been spotted wandering around Winnipeg's Scotia Heights neighbourhood. And even though they're just two ornery-seeming strangers who showed up uninvited, one area resident has welcomed them with open arms -- offering them a place to drink and bathe… which is the same place, and even a place to stay for a while: his backyard. Jeff Martin told CBC Winnipeg how he reacted when they first made their approach.

SOUNDCLIP

JEFF MARTIN: It was surprised to see turkeys around the neighbourhood, for sure. I heard them in the morning coming down Scotia, past that white house. I sat here and had my coffee. And sooner or later, they came walking up.

JIM AGAPITO: [chuckle] And what was your reaction when they came up?

JM: What are turkeys doing in the neighbourhood? [JA laughs] Haven't seen those before. We've seen foxes and deer and other animals, but no turkeys.

JA: Now, I understand they got really close.

JM: Very close. I actually started to like them. Even though they're unwanted at first, and I think maybe we should have them as a pet. So, I used my phone and did some turkey calls, and I lured them almost into the backyard until my wife said we cant have turkey pets.

JA: Awe! [JM laughs] Were you disappointed with that answer?

JM: I was very disappointed in that answer, yes. Because I thought we could have them for a couple of weeks at least, and then I let them go.

JA: Do you think we could attract them right now if we use that same call?

JM: We might be able to if they're close enough. But I think they've migrated over, a street over, so I'm not sure it'll be loud enough. But they did like the bird bath for a little drink, so.

JA: Oh, they, oh, so, they hung out there.

JM: They hung out all day. They entertained us all day long.

JA: How many were there?

JM: There's two. And I think there are two males, if, I'm not a turkey expert, but I'm guessing they're two males.

JA: Let's try and attract the turkey with this call.

JM: All right, let's do it.

JA: Okay. [a loud squeak] They walked over to the birdbath, correct?

JM: They did, yes. Okay, let's try. So here it is. [squeaks] Okay. Here, turkey, turkey, turkey. Here, turkey, turkey, turkey. They love gobbling, though. They had a really that unique gobble that was pretty, pretty fun to listen to all day long.

JA: How did you try and lure them in? Like, what did you do?

JM: So, similar to that.

JA: Okay.

JM: I had a similar sound, and I walked backwards. The gate was open. They came all the way down to the side of the house, until I got in trouble. And they had to, they had to be moved out. So, out they went.

CH: That was Jeff Martin, a resident of Winnipeg's Scotia Heights neighbourhood, talking to the CBC's Jim Agapito about a pair of wild turkeys who've recently made the area their home.

[ambient instrumental]

Manhattanhenge

Guest: Jackie Faherty

CH: Last night's sunset in Manhattan was enough to stop traffic. Or it would have been, had traffic not already been stopped. And tonight's is expected to be even more dramatic, thanks to a rare event known as "Manhattanhenge." At exactly 8:12 p.m., the cityscape will frame the sun so perfectly as it touches the horizon it could make you weak in the knees. So it's appropriate that Jackie Faherty -- senior scientist and astrophysicist at the American Museum of Natural History -- calls the phenomenon a "grid kiss." We reached her earlier today in New York City.

HM: Jackie, can you describe what peak Manhattanhenge looks like?

JACKIE FAHERTY: Peak Manhattanhenge. Well, if you get good weather, which is a key, then what you actually get is in the middle of a street in Manhattan, and right at the moment of sunset, actually, about a couple of minutes before the sun sets, you start to see the sun move, starting to the left. And if you're staring straight down the street, looking west towards New Jersey, you'll see the sun peek through the buildings and then, like, like, an arrow shooting for a bull's eye, bull's eye being the centre of the street, the sun makes its way towards the horizon. And right before it hits the horizon, it reaches the exact centre of the street. So, it's perfectly framed by whatever buildings you're staring down the corridor of Manhattan in. So, it's a gorgeous sunset. And the entirety of the concrete alleys of New York City get lit up in the colours of a sunset.

HM: New Yorkers and anyone lucky enough to be visiting got a preview last night. Were you there as well?

JF: I was. I am an avid Manhattanhenge person. I'm the person that ends up calculating the date and the time that we put out into the press. So, I, I make sure that I don't travel on Manhattanhenge days so that I can be present in the city.

HM: What was the atmosphere like?

JF: Oh, so fun. This is one of the few times where strangers on the streets of New York will talk to each other and ask each other questions about what's going on. So, you might know what's happening and you're in the middle of the street and somebody will be very curious as to what's happening. And that was happening a lot yesterday. But I have to say, having done this for years, increasingly large number of people know about the event. So, the crowds were out in numbers yesterday because the weather was spectacular. And so, it had a very jovial atmosphere.

HM: Right. Now, there must be some places that are better to see this effect than others. Where are the best spots?

JF: My favourite spot is on 42nd Street, right at Grand Central Station, where there’s a, it's like a driveway for the taxis, and it goes through the middle of the street. And so, you can kind of scooch yourself on to this bridge and watch it there. And then if you look east of there, in the opposite direction of the sunset, there's a place called Tudor City, which also has an upraised bridge, and that's also in the middle of the street. And tons of people go there. But basically, the wide cross streets are excellent with you want iconic buildings in the frame. So, 34th Street is really good. 14th Street's good. 23rd Street's good. The thing about those streets, though, is that you have to be in the middle of the street. So, you get a lot of people that are jumping into the street when the crosswalk changes so that they can start snapping pictures and then the traffic goes a little crazy. And that's when everybody starts talking because taxi drivers are upset and then they finally concede that it's a nice moment, [HM laughs] and then they'll take a picture. Traffic was stopped at sunset, basically.

HM: And all this works this way because the streets are on such a precise grid.

JF: Yes, there's, there's a couple of factors. One is because the island of Manhattan was sculpted by glaciers and erosion. And then in 1811, there were three commissioners that decided on this plan to grid the city. They didn't have to grid it. They could have decided on something else, but they decided to take what was the kind of north-south facing avenues, and they decided to put 90 degree angles towards the cross streets, or the ones going east-west. And when they did that with the grid plan of 1811, they created a bull's eye for the sun to hit. But the other important factor for New York City and why it's so good is that when you look west across this grid, you're looking across the Hudson River towards New Jersey, which thankfully has a fairly flat skyline.

HM: Now, presumably, people will appreciate that the name Manhattanhenge comes from and is inspired by Stonehenge.

JF: Yeah. So, the person that coined the name is also the person that started the popularizing of it, and that was, is, the director of the Hayden Planetarium, Neil deGrasse Tyson. And, actually, in 2019, the Oxford English Dictionary added the word Manhattanhenge to the dictionary. And Neil did it as an homage to Stonehenge, the most famous of all the henges. There's hedges everywhere across the planet.

HM: Right.

JF: Astronomy's the oldest field people celebrated where the sun was by building structures all the time. New York wasn't built for these dates. It's a coincidence, but it is the same concept.

HM: It's obviously a big deal that the weather cooperates. What are the things looking like for tonight?

JF: It's looking good. The one thing that we do have that's coming from wildfires in Canada, so where you are, is there's, there's a haze that we've had. And that haze makes the sun look a little bit funky on the horizon. The colours are a little bit interesting, so that shouldn't affect our ability to see it, but it might make for some intriguing pictures.

HM: Jackie, have a great Manhattanhenge.

JF: Thank you. Bye-bye.

CH: That was Jackie Faherty, senior scientist and astrophysicist at the American Museum of Natural History. We reached her in New York City, earlier today.

[pop]

FOA: Bike Trip Completed

CH: They're finally completing the journey he started. Earlier this month, all 16 members of the Petit family drove from Winnipeg to Hot Springs, South Dakota. They were finishing the trip started by JP Petit who was killed last June, while on a bike trip to fundraise for his granddaughter Eveline. She was born with end-stage renal disease and had recently received a kidney transplant. As It Happens guest host Catherine Cullen spoke with JP Petit's son, Marquis, after his father's death. Here's part of that conversation, From Our Archives.

SOUNDCLIP

MP: He always told me he never understood or would never be able to do what Eveline has done. She's defied the odds. She's gone through several operations. She's been in and out of the hospital. He said she. She was his inspiration to do this.

CH: Tell me how he was feeling when he embarked on this ride.

MP: He was excited. He was excited. We had good weather. We had a good following. We had been doing a Facebook page and a website that my wife and I operate. My dad was going to be the muscles. He was going to be… he was going to be the one doing the challenge. He felt good. He had an excitement every single day when he was starting his next leg.

CC: People have heard about what happened and they have been continuing to donate. What can you tell me about that?

MP: It's been unbelievable. Dad always had his personal goal of reaching 50,000. And again, I called him crazy. I said, how about we try to make something achievable. And even then, I thought 20,000 was going to be difficult to achieve. He actually achieved the $20,000 the morning of the accident and then the outpour since we have surpassed $31,000.

CC: Wow.

MP: So we actually even have received some PayPal transfers from Italy. People in Italy have heard that story and were touched to donate to the cause.

CC: I can only imagine what he would think of that.

MP: Yeah. He'd be blown away. But he's leaving behind a legacy, right. Knowing dad... He... If he knew the outcome, he still would have... He still would have went on this adventure. He's one of the most selfless persons, family members that I know.

CH: From Our Archives, that was Marquis Petit speaking with guest host Catherine Cullen last June. And a happy update: his daughter Eveline is doing well, and has not been admitted to hospital since last year.

[synth]

Part 3: Soccer Ref Body Cams, Illinois Book Burning Law, 24 Sussex Construction

Soccer Ref Body Cams

Guest: Johnny Misley

CH: Body cameras are usually associated with the police. But this summer, some soccer referees in Ontario will be wearing them too. The organization Ontario Soccer has announced the pilot project as part of its effort to tackle aggressive and abusive behaviour at games. Johnny Misley is the CEO of Ontario Soccer. We reached him in Vaughan, Ontario -- north of Toronto.

HM: Johnny, what kinds of things have you witnessed or heard about at soccer games that got you thinking about putting body cameras on referees?

JOHNNY MISLEY: The primary reason is the decrease in registered officials, which led us to understand that when we investigated the why to that, the number one reason is referee abuse.

HM: And when you say abuse, what kind of things are we talking about?

JM: We're talking about verbal abuse. And more importantly, is physical abuse, physical assault. And we have a number of reports of this happening. And it seems to be coming out of the pandemic for some reason. And we're finding this in general across all sports. People are more agitated or angry for some reasons. And, I guess, all you got to do is just go into a grocery store or drive on the 401, and you kind of understand what I'm talking about, but that's transposed into referee assault. And as a result, we're taking an initiative here, along with a few tactics, to try to go beyond signage and education and start to have a zero-tolerance approach to this.

HM: When it comes to either assault or verbal abuse, who’s, who's doing the abusing?

JM: We have, in an event, we have coaches, we have managers on the bench. We have players at the adult level, and we have spectators that attend the games, be it parents or fans of the game. We've had a couple of instances last year as an example that I've been using as just as examples. We have a youth-aged 16-year-old female official, two or three years experience being swarmed and attacked in a parking lot after a game. We have an adult referee chased around the field after a player was tossed out with a red card, and that player went to his car to take out of his trunk of his car a machete and chased the referee around the field. Sadly, these are all isolated incidents, or the minority of, of incidents that have been reported. Most of our reports, the games are clean and designed to be what they're supposed to be, which is fun and enjoyment. But, unfortunately, we've seen an escalation of cases being reported of both verbal and physical assaults.

HM: What do you hope these body cameras will achieve?

JM: First and foremost, it would be a visual deterrent, not any different than what we see with body cams being used in another industry, and that is the policing industry and communities all around us. Or for police officers on the side of a road with a radar gun. And we tend to cover behaviour by slowing down, or most people slow down. So, we're seen as a visual deterrent. And secondly, it's a data gathering mechanism for us to log these and file these, these verbal and aggressive behaviours so that we can deal with our zero-tolerance approach on dealing with punishment and, and discipline.

HM: So, do you have data that, that back up the use of these cameras in sport?

JM: No, this is quite new. When we came up with the idea, we were thinking of exactly that of the policing field and how that was being used and why it was being used. So, we spoke to a few police officers who are involved in soccer, and they gave us some feedback on it and ideas and that led us to do an international search. And we found that no one was using it except for one other country that's ironically doing the same pilot this year. And that is in the, in the U.K. with the in the English FA. And they're doing a study this summer with adult leagues. So, we reached out to them and they led us to a company called Reveal Media that they're partnering with that operate the units. And we said to Reveal Media that we'd like to join this, and we wouldn't mind collaborating and comparing data. So, it's sort of an overseas partnership that we are doing, and we'll share the data once we get through this summer and into the indoor winter season. And share data and have a full report next year.

HM: Is that expensive?

JM: The units themselves? Yeah, they're not, they're not cheap. They're about $500 each. I think we're going to be working with 50 cameras in partnership with, with Reveal Media. And we're going to be, we're just right now working on a logistics for a July 1st release. We have 18 districts around the province that help us with the administration and delivery of the game. And we're going to be spreading them around all 18 provinces, and we're going to be looking at placing them on a total of 50 officials at youth ages as well as adult ages starting in July.

HM: When it comes to youth games, have you had any feedback from parents about having cameras on the pitch?

JM: No, not, not, not yet. We certainly have a lot of questions before we start this pilot, and we want answers to -- hence why we're doing a pilot project. It's a test of a number of things, but we already know there's cameras at the field of play already, with parents holding up smartphones and refereeing. Hence why there's so much material on YouTube. All one has to do is just Google referee abuse in any sport on YouTube, and you'll be shocked at what you'll find.

HM: This is not unique to soccer. It's widespread in other sports as well. You've got a lot of major sports associations have heard complaints about this kind of, of abuse for many years. Do, do organizations like yours bear some responsibility for letting things get to the point where you need to start outfitting referees at kids games with cameras?

JM: Well, first off, it's quite sad that in our society in 2023, we have to place experiment cameras on referees, given where we are. It's kind of a sad statement, isn't it? But nevertheless, every sport owns this. And more importantly, the education of parents, especially when the kids are quite young, starting up in sport, there's so many tremendous values and benefits to being physically and mentally active by participating in sports. It doesn't matter if it's organized or unorganized sport. And with those benefits come education. And part of this is the sports’ responsibilities. You know, training of referees is one thing, but also training through coaches, educating players and developing those players, but also educating parents on what their child will go through in development. And more importantly, what the role and responsibility is of the parent to support their child as they go through a lifelong experience in that sport. And, hopefully, fall in love with it from start to finish.

HM: Johnny, thanks for taking time to talk with us.

JM: It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me, and thanks for putting a spotlight on this issue.

HM: All right. All the best. Thank you.

JM: Thank you. Bye.

CH: That was Ontario Soccer CEO Johnny Misley in Vaughan, Ontario.

[ambient]

B.C. Madison Scott

CH: On May 28th, 2011, 20-year-old Madison Scott went to a birthday party at a campsite on Hogsback Lake in British Columbia. She never got home. And yesterday, exactly 12 years after she was reported missing, the RCMP announced that Ms. Scott's remains had been found. In a statement, the police said they were executing a search warrant at a rural property in the Vanderhoof area. They also said foul play has not been ruled out. Todd Doherty is the MP for the riding of Cariboo-Prince George. He told the CBC the Scott family, and the community, had never given up hope.

SOUNDCLIP

TODD DOHERTY: It's, when I got the news, I just had one word, and that was wow. And finally, I guess, two words. So, [deep sigh] it's, now we just wait and see. It's, you know, it's still an ongoing investigation. I think the community has been so incredible to the Scotts. They've really held them up. And, you know, all these years later, you know, that flyers are everywhere. The signs are everywhere in our region. You know, I was travelling in Southern California and even saw a vehicle with the "Find Maddie" sticker down there. Obviously, A B.C. family that was travelling. But I believe it's really helped keep the story alive and maybe lead to, you know, at least some answers that, you know, somebody's discovery will bring.

CAROLINA DE Ryk : And yet, as you mentioned, still so many unanswered questions. This does remain an active investigation. What has been the impact of not knowing what happened?

TD: You know, I remember when Alvin and Dawn and I sat, and we did a video back in 2019 that we, that we posted on the eight-year anniversary of, of Maddie's disappearance. And, you know, Dawn and Alvin said that every time that that phone call rings, is it going to be Maddie? Is it going to be somebody with some information about Maddie? Every time a car goes by, you know, is Maddie in there? You know, we live in small communities, and you can't help but think that somebody, somebody knows. Maybe it's your neighbour, maybe it's, you know, maybe it's a friend or somebody knows something. So, that plays a tremendous toll on, on a family and, and really on a community. And so, yeah, I just, Alvin and Dawn are so strong. You know, they've had an incredible group of friends and, and community members -- Team Maddie. Thousands upon thousands and thousands of hours have been spent searching for Maddie. And I remember talking to a family member that just said it's literally, it's literally like a needle in a haystack. You know, I think that, I think the phrase that he said or what he said was, I now understand what that phrase means, a needle in a haystack, because it's, they, they combed every inch of this, this region looking for her, right? And they just kept holding out hope that, that Maddie would be found.

CH: That was MP Todd Doherty speaking with the CBC's Carolina de Ryk, the host of Daybreak North.

[ambient]

Illinois Book Burning Law

Guest: Laura Murphy

CH: With a stroke of the governor's pen, Democrats in Illinois hope their state will become the first to stop book banning. The bill would cut funding to any publicly-funded institution that attempts to ban books. That includes public libraries and schools. It has passed the state House and Senate but is awaiting Governor JB Pritzker's signature. PEN America reports that book bans in U.S. schools increased by almost 30 percent this year. Laura Murphy is an Illinois state senator who sponsored the bill. We reached her in Des Plaines, Illinois.

HM: Senator Murphy, what will it mean to you to finally see the governor's signature on this bill?

LAURA MURPHY: Oh, it will be wonderful, because for too long, we have struggled with groups that really have an agenda of banning books. And this bill will ensure that, at least in Illinois, that movement will have ended. People will have access -- free access -- to any books that they should choose to read.

HM: How exactly is the bill going to stop book banning in the state?

LM: The provisions in the bill say that the Secretary of State, who is our chief librarian and is over all of the libraries in the state of Illinois, would have the opportunity and ability to not provide grants to libraries, which most communities rely heavily on those grants provided by the secretary of state. And, you know, if you're going to ban books, then you're not going to be able to do it with state tax dollars. So, would it ban everybody? No. From that practice. However, it would prevent anyone from using state dollars to do so.

HM: How significant have, have book bannings been in your state? How many people, how many organizations have pushed for this?

LM: Well, we have a primary group that is kind of, I think, nationwide, Moms for Liberty. That's been significant. And they have a branch in one of our local suburbs that has been very active. And they have spent time recruiting people, and frankly, people innocently have thought, well, yeah, that makes sense without having all the information. And then, you know, when it's brought to their attention about what this group really does, what the intent is, then often the support wanes.

HM: When you look at other states and the moves to ban books there, are there particularly egregious bans, things that stand out or upset you?

LM: Well, you know, we have examples in Florida being kind of a case study in a number of areas that, yeah, it's very upsetting because I don't understand why people, you know, when you ban books, and you ban the access to history, you're in essence trying to rewrite that history. And I just think our history is so important to ensure we learn from it. We provide better policies, better opinions, better actions, and then we don't repeat any mistakes that might have been made.

HM: What do you think the intent is of people who are pushing for these book bans?

LM: I do think they want to control history. They want to control people's knowledge. They want to control someone's ability to question and think. And, and, you know, I just have the opposite opinion that when we have more ideas, when we have better participation, we have better outcomes.

HM: Some of what we have seen in public schools and libraries and other states doesn't exactly involve outright bans. It's more moving books, say, to different sections to limit their availability to some age groups. Does, does your bill address that?

LM: It does not. It just says specifically that you wouldn't be able to ban a book and any book that coincides with the American Library Association suggestions. So, if somebody wanted to hide books, you know, they still would be able to have access to that book in that library. It just might take them a little while to get it. But I think that, you know, people that are intent on getting a book would still be able to have access to that.

HM: So you acknowledge that there are some titles that may not be appropriate for, say, young kids to read?

LM: Sure. And then, I think that the parent says, no, we're not going to check out that book. You know, nothing in this bill prohibits someone from exercising their parental rights, their parental controls, but it doesn't ban someone else from accessing that information. So, yeah, parents still have the right to be parents and the need to be parents. We need parents to step up and be parents.

HM: Mm-hmm. Have you heard from any libraries or individuals that don't want to abide by this new law, that, that want to be able to implement their own bans?

LM: I have not. In fact, I've only heard people supporting the legislation and being grateful for the legislation because it eliminates a lot of pressure off of them, as the librarian or the staff, to know that these are the guidelines. There is no grey in this area. And that that I think is helpful to them because I think that, you know, our librarians who are educated and trained in their specific fields are not interested in prohibiting people from reading. They want to encourage people to read.

HM: The American Library Association Chicago chapter said there were 67 attempts to ban books in Illinois in 2022. Can you tell us about some of the books that are being targeted?

LM: You know, there's a list out of some of those books that were targeted. I know when I presented the bill, some of those were classic American pieces of literature, Catcher in the Rye, The Great Gatsby. Those are all books that the Florida division has tried to ban. I know that some of the other books that are more recent writers have felt that the transgender issues were more prevalent in certain books, and those were the ones that they were targeting.

HM: As someone who clearly loves books or likes books and supports the right to read, what do you think of it when you hear people trying to ban titles like Catcher in the Rye?

LM: It's just mind-boggling, mind-boggling to think that those are books that, The Great Gatsby, Grapes of Wrath. That's what makes me think that people are really trying to change history. Those were all things that, books that exposed our minds to what we learned in history, you know, just brought to life characters that we could really envision the history at that time. It's just mind-boggling to me that anyone would not encourage someone to think beyond.

HM: Senator Murphy, thank you so much for taking time to talk to us.

LM: My pleasure. Have a great day.

CH: Laura Murphy is a State Senator in Illinois. We reached her in Des Plaines, Illinois.

[chillhop]

Bliken NATO

CH: It appears that the price of NATO membership is a bunch of jets. And vice-versa. Last year, after Russia invaded Ukraine, Sweden and Finland applied to join NATO. Turkey has already ratified Finland, but Sweden's bid is stalled. What is also stalled is a deal in the U.S. Congress to send F-16 fighter jets to Turkey. Congress says that if Turkey wants the jets, it will have to approve Sweden. Now that Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has been re-elected, a lot of people are hoping this whole Sweden/NATO/jet situation is sorted out by the time the NATO summit begins in July. U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is visiting Turkey this week ahead of the summit. But first, he stopped in Sweden. At a press conference alongside the Swedish Prime Minister, Secretary Blinken was asked about the jets.

SOUNDCLIP

ANTHONY BLINKEN: With regard to the F-16s, our administration has been very clear. We believe it's important that Turkey have the F-16s or the F-16 upgrades as a critical member of the NATO alliance to make sure that they are operating at the highest standards of the alliance, that they're fully interoperable with every other ally. This, too, is in the interest of the United States, and it's why we brought this forward for consideration. It's equally true that there are members of Congress who feel strongly, and while we are not linking the two issues, when I say we, I mean the, the Biden administration, some members of Congress are. They are linking Sweden's accession scenario to the moving forward on the F-16s. Congress is a fully equal and independent branch of government. Their voice and their vote in any such decisions, of course, is critical. But from our perspective, we believe that both should go forward and should go forward as quickly as possible. That is to say, Sweden's accession and moving forward on the F-16 package.

REPORTER: Just a follow-up on the NATO question. The NATO meeting in Vilnius is only six weeks away. What would you say the odds are, the chances are, that you will see Sweden as a member of NATO before the meeting takes place? And sort of like a follow-up on that, if the process will be further delayed, what might the consequences be for Sweden as well as for NATO?

AB: Do you, do you have a bet on this or are you thinking of putting something? [chuckles all around] I don't have any inside information that I could or would share. Look, as I said, we, we believe the time is now. And there is no reason for not moving forward. And as I said before, and as the prime minister has expressed very eloquently, Turkey has raised important and legitimate concerns. Sweden and Finland both address those concerns. And so, the time to move forward is now. We'd like to see that happen before the Vilnius summit. But again, I can't put -- and won't -- put odds on it. We've been clear that we will not tolerate any aggression against Sweden, no matter its actual status.

CH: U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken speaking at a press conference in Sweden earlier today.

[chillhop]

24 Sussex Construction

Guest: David Flemming

CH: Construction has begun at the official home of Canada's prime ministers. But David Flemming says it's not the kind of work that 24 Sussex deserves. Mr. Flemming is the chair of Heritage Ottawa's advocacy committee. His organization has been fighting to preserve the old mansion down the river from Parliament Hill, as prime minister after prime minister has decided to leave the politically costly reno work to someone else. We reached David Flemming in Ottawa.

HM: Mr. Fleming, just how bad if things gotten at 24 Sussex?

DAVID FLEMING: Well, they're bad enough that the National Capital Commission and Public Works finally moved in to do some remediation work on the building. Apparently, they've been having health and safety issues with it. And last fall, said that their people couldn't work in the building anymore. I think they had been using the kitchen up until then.

HM: Is it true that there are rats and other vermin living in the walls?

DF: Yeah. I mean, that, that's not unusual for older houses, one that's located where this is, a house that, that hasn't been cared for for the past decade or so. But I think now what kind of remediation work, hopefully, that they're doing will provide some sort of stabilization until they can either use it again as the residence of the prime minister or find some adaptive reuse for the building.

HM: You know, this is the place Maureen McTeer, who actually lived there as the wife of Prime Minister Joe Clark, at the time, described as, I'm quoting, an old crumbling building so lacking in vision that it does not reflect who we are as Canadians. Why should Canadians care?

DF: Well, we should care because it's of national significance. It's a heritage-designated building. You know, we always say in the heritage preservation movement that the best building -- the greenest building -- is one that's already there. So, you don't have to tear it down and find landfill for it. And, you know, I think Mrs. McTeer had some good ideas about tearing it down and perhaps building a LEED Platinum building that meets all the environmental standards, which is one approach. But the fact that the building is there, it has been used as the residence of the prime minister, and it is still, even though the prime minister doesn't live there, the official residence. And it's not owned by the prime minister. I mean, the current Prime Minister said he doesn't want to live there and will never live there. Well, you know, it's not his building. It belongs to the people of Canada.

HM: 24 Sussex just has never had that kind of symbolic importance to Canadians that, say, the White House does to Americans, or the Elysee Palace, to the French. Why do you think that is?

DF: Well, for one thing, you know, it's only been around for, only been used as the prime minister's residence for 70 years. [chuckling] So, you know, we don't have the same lineage as those buildings. I think what we have to do, though, is to have a decision that's made. We wrote to the prime minister four years ago suggesting that, you know, if he or the government don't want to make a political decision on doing this, then they set up a committee of politicians and maybe heritage preservation people to, you know, weigh the options for use.

HM: So, so have you had a response from Prime Minister Trudeau?

DF: No, we didn't. We wrote to him again, just to remind him. And I think that's it. You know, the government of Canada has a pretty good track record once they make a decision to work on heritage buildings. I mean, you just have to look at the East and West Block and the restoration work they've done. Their Centre Block is being worked on now, but the decision to do something has been made a political decision, and it was made a political decision, I think, by the former prime minister, Prime Minister Harper, who, who said that, you know, it doesn't make sense to pay taxpayers money just so a prime minister can have a place to live. Well, prime ministers need a place to live. And, you know, for the past 70 years, that house has been the home. And until they make a decision otherwise, then I think, you know, they should continue to look into it.

HM: Isn't the decision, by its very nature, a political one, given the cost? Back in 2008, estimated to be $10 million to make the place habitable in any form. I've heard as much as four times that now. I mean, that's, that's a lot of money for taxpayers on, on a renovation that some people don't see as necessary.

DF: Well, no, I agree. But, you know, you can probably pick a lot of other things that the government does that costs lots of money when we're spending hundreds of millions on the restoration of the Centre Block. But nobody seems to complain about that.

HM: But more than, a lot of people use the Centre Block. The, the Prime Minister's residence is, of course, a scene, I suppose, for people to have parties and receptions and that sort of thing. But it is also primarily a residence.

DF: Yes, yes. I'm not arguing that, that it's going to cost a lot of money. I just, I'm not, I guess we're not ready to throw in the towel yet on it because we don't think that they've given it due consideration. And we don't think that, you know, they've come up with a reasonable option for use of the building or not using the building.

HM: So, what do you think it would take to shake politicians into action to give 24 Sussex some kind of life in the future in any capacity?

DF: I really don't know. You know, short of having some public petition to do it. But, you know, I'm not sure whether that many people care that much about it. And I think the government probably realizes that. I think to go back to our letter to the Prime Minister of March or February 2019. We offered an option, to look at the building and to come up with some ideas. And as far as I'm concerned, that hasn't been done, and nothing has been done. You know, we, we have a thing in Ottawa, I mean, dealing with private dwellings. We call it heritage demolition by neglect. And that's when a developer buys a property, allows it to deteriorate to the point that the fire marshal says either you have to fix it up or tear it down, and they tear it down. We expect that from the private sector. It's not happening as much as it used to, but it still happens. But we certainly don't expect demolition by neglect by the federal government. We think that's, that's atrocious.

HM: Mr. Fleming, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us today.

DF: Okay. You're welcome.

CH: David Flemming is the chair of Heritage Ottawa's advocacy committee. We reached him in Ottawa.

[theme]

CH: You've been listening to As It Happens on the CBC. Listen app. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One after the World at Six.

HM: And you can read more about the stories and conversations we feature here on As It Happens on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih. I'm Helen Mann. Thanks so much for listening.

CH: And I'm Chris Howden.

[theme]

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

May 30, 2023 Episode Transcript

Social Sharing