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The AIH Transcript for March 30, 2023

Prologue

NIL KOKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

TALIA SCHLANGER: Good evening. I'm Talia Schlanger, sitting in for Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

TS: Tonight,

NK: Never again. The final report into the mass killings in Nova Scotia says policing needs a drastic overhaul. We'll speak with the daughter of one of the people killed and a volunteer firefighter who survived those horrible 13 hours.

TS: The commissioners also warn gender based violence needs to be addressed for the safety of the people targeted, but also for the wider community.

NK: Upon further exploration. More than five centuries after the "doctrine of discovery" helped legitimize colonization, the Vatican repudiates the policies of that doctrine. Former Assembly of First Nations national chief Phil Fontaine says that means the Pope kept his promise and now says governments need to do the same.

TS: It's the end of the trail in a town called Trail. After over half a century, a B.C. Community sends off a beloved local restaurant.

NK: Music therapy. Carol Todd remembers her friend, the award winning composer Jocelyn Morlock, who created the piece, "My name is Amanda Todd". To honour the young girl's life.

TS: The shape of things to come is already here. A newly discovered 13 sided configuration known as "The Hat" does something no other can do, says the computer scientist who helped introduce it to the world. As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that covers all the angles.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: MCC Report, New Shape

MCC Report

Guests: Charlene Bagley, Darrell Currie

TS: The 22 people killed in the mass shooting in Nova Scotia are never coming back to their loved ones. But their families hope, have always hoped that they didn't die in vain. Today, the commission investigating the horrific events of April 2020 issued its final report and it is bracing. The commissioners denounced the RCMP for failing to protect the community and for depriving them of potentially lifesaving information, while the killer was on his rampage disguised as a police officer. They also issued 130 recommendations, including a major overhaul of how the RCMP operates and a re-examination of policing in Nova Scotia. Here is the chair of the Mass Casualty Commission, Michael MacDonald, calling on all Canadians to ensure that the report makes a difference.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHAEL MACDONALD: It sets out what happened. It sets out our findings and how and why things happened as they did. And it provides a future focussed recommendations that, when implemented, when implemented, will change our country for the better. It is a substantial report and a comprehensive road map to a safer Canada. Please take the time to read it, to reflect and determine how best you can support its implementation. We recognize that this is not the first report to make findings and recommendations like these. But with all of your help, it could be the last. Let me repeat that. With all of your help, it could be the last.

TS: Head of the Mass Casualty Commission. Michael MacDonald. Charlene Bagley's father, Tom was one of the killer's victims. She was in the room as the report was presented. We reached her in Truro, Nova Scotia.

NK: Charlene, you and the other families have waited so long for this. How are you feeling now that you've seen and heard the findings?

CHARLENE BAGLEY: I'm very grateful that this chapter is done. Now, it's just waiting to see when the findings will be implemented.

NK: Commissioner MacDonald we heard in that clip together there, implementation, he said it over and over again, really pleading, it sounded like, for people at all levels to pay attention. How important is it to you that people are actually listening, the people with power, to make change?

CB: Very important, because otherwise it's just a bunch of words on paper. Unless something actually is actually going to get done, then I don't believe that we are in a better place in the province. So, I truly hope that those that are able to make the changes do so and will be held to that standard. My hope is that those that can hold people accountable will do that. I know myself. I plan on it.

NK: Have you seen anything or felt anything change in the last couple of years in terms of policing or contrition from those, you know, in positions of power?

CB: Well, if we go back to the public hearings, to those that testified, the majority of the officers that spoke were asked would they change or do anything differently? A lot of them said no. So, that is concerning to me. But I guess my hope again, is that, you know, those that do have the power to make the changes are able to do so and hold those accountable.

NK: I was looking at and reading the lovely tribute you wrote to your father in the recommendations that the commission issued today. It's so hard when you're grieving to put something like that together. And I know you did that for your family and for your dad. There's a picture here. You're a kid, you're on his lap, he's got these retro glasses on. And his mustache...

CB: I was discussing that picture with my mom, trying to decide how old I was during that picture. I don't quite remember what was happening at that time, but I'm just grateful to have that memory there to be able to see it.

NK: What do you want people to know about your dad, Tom Bagley?

CB: That his death wasn't in vain. No one deserved the fate that they had that day, the 18th. But my father, he was a good man. I'm grateful to be able to call him my father. I just pledge that I will never give up and trying to find the truth for him and the others.

NK: You talk about what kind of a man he was. And actually, the day that he was killed, he was out trying to help his neighbours. Right? Can you tell me about that?

CB: My father was always a helper. All my life, I seen him drop anything to help somebody else. So, it's come to no surprise that his last moments were trying to help somebody. They were friends of his and he was a firefighter by trade. That was what he did majority of his career. So, it's not surprising that if he would have seen the smoke, that he likely would have ran up to see what he could do to help.

NK: This was his neighbours. Their house had been set on fire by the gunman.

CB: Yeah.

NK: In the immediate aftermath of this, you know, people were already saying that they hadn't been properly informed, that they didn't know what was going on and how to keep themselves safe. And the report the commissioners really underlined what they feel is the RCMP failure to properly warn people about the danger that was out there. If your father had known. All of the details. Do you think that would have saved his life?

CB: I believe it would have. He wasn't a stupid man. So, if he was made alerted that there was someone going around impersonating an officer, especially in the area that he was at, I'm pretty sure he would have locked the door and tried to protect him and mom. So, I'll never know, unfortunately, we can never ask him, but my gut would be that he would have known better to stay put.

NK: How have you been dealing with everything over these nearly three years now, but also the months and months of hearing what the, you know, the commission testimony and now today. How have you been dealing with all of that?

CB: Barely. I guess coming to this end of a chapter is definitely, I'm very grateful for that now at this point. It's been a long three years. This past year, during the public hearings was extremely challenging at times for myself and the other families. And it's good to be done. I mean, just this chapter's done. It's nowhere near over. I'm aware of that, that this will be ongoing probably for quite some time, but at least this part is done, and we can maybe move forward from it.

NK: Are you able to think of your dad now without the grief and anger as well?

CB: There, yes. There's moments now where a memory will come up and it does make me smile, whereas before it was hard to get to that point. There's still times where, you know, the anger is there, and I don't know if that will ever go away. My hope is that changes will be made that nobody will ever have to go through this.

NK: You write in your tribute, "the title that he most loved in later years would most likely be Poppy. It was the way his blue eyes would sparkle the moment you said the names Brody and Bria, that made it quite obvious there was a special bond that will forever be cherished". How are they doing?

CB: Okay. They definitely miss him. He was a huge impact on their lives as well. Whatever he could do to make their lives easier, like he did with me, he. He would. He would just light up. And it was beautiful to see. He really was an amazing soul. He was truly one of a kind.

NK: Charlene, I so appreciate your time. Thank you.

CB: Thank you.

TS: Charlene Bagley is the daughter of Tom Bagley, one of the 22 people who died in the mass killing in Nova Scotia. She was in Truro. Darrell Currie was there for the report's release, too, as deputy fire chief, he was at the Onslow Belmont Fire Brigade on April 19th, 2020. And at around 10:00 in the morning that day, the sound of gunfire sent him into hiding in the fire hall. But it wasn't the suspect shooting, it was the RCMP. The officers said they mistook a man in a safety vest for the suspect. We reached Darrell Currie at home in Masstown, Nova Scotia.

NK: Darrell, when we spoke to you a year ago, you were not hopeful that this inquiry was going to give you the answers you wanted. In the end, did you hear what you wanted and needed to hear today?

DARRELL CURRIE: The report that was released today didn't, didn't give us any more answers than what I already knew. I don't think there's anything much new in the report. I sat through, I think, 74 of the 76 days of the inquiry. So, I basically heard everything that was, that was said. But I don't think that there's, some of the answers are still missing, but the recommendations may be helpful, I think.

NK: Yeah. What's the ultimate feeling you're left with on this day after such a long process?

DC: I'm actually, you know, a little opposite from before. I have more of a positive outcome. I'm pleased with some of the recommendations I see in the report. I haven't read it all. You know, mind you, it's 3000 pages and I received a copy of it yesterday. So, I, I've been flipping through it, trying to pick out some, some important items for myself, but I do have a positive feeling, at least about the report.

NK: Do you think you'll read all of those thousands of pages? Do you think it will help you or do you think you have to step away?

DC: No, I believe, I'm planning on reading it. That's my plan. Yes.

NK: A portion of the report does specifically focus on what happened to you, and it says "the RCMP turned your fire hall, which should have been a place of safety, into a place of harm, and in the aftermath, failed to recognize the gravity of what had happened to you and your colleague". How do you respond to that?

DC: Well, that's just the truth. I still, I'm still not happy with the outcome of the SiRT investigation. I believe it's flawed. And the report even, I think, hints that more information should have been provided there. So, it makes me... You know, I'm still bitter about that, that whole report.

NK: You know, I was struck as I was getting ready to speak with you. There's usually this kinship and camaraderie and trust between police and firefighters. You know, you have similar goals. How has all of this affected that connection and that relationship?

DC: Yeah, well, you know, we work with the RCMP, you know, on a regular basis. You know, a majority of our calls they're there with us. And as far as you know, working with the, you know, the members on the street, you know, we're professional, they're professional. We get along. Now, obviously, the two that did the shooting at the fire hall don't come out in our area. We don't see them anymore. But as far as the rest of you know, the members, we get along and cooperate and, you know, work, work well together.

NK: So, you're back at work and you've been back to that fire hall?

DC: Well, it's a volunteer fire department, so I'm still there. I've never left.

NK: That's remarkable...

DC: I'm still responding.

NK: Yeah.

DC: They still respond to calls. Yes.

NK: And if the two officers, you said they don't come around anymore. If you saw them now, what would you say?

DC: I'm not sure what I would say. I don't... I'm not sure. I might just walk away. Bite my tongue.

NK: Yeah. How are you feeling about the chances that that the recommendations in this report will actually be implemented?

DC: Yeah, I went sort of. I went from hopelessness, from the inquiry to now, you know, feeling kind of hopeless about implementation. I watched, you know, the public safety minister and the RCMP commissioner and assistant commissioner for Nova Scotia doing interviews today after the Mass Casualty Commission. And I don't get a real warm fuzzy feeling from them that these recommendations are anything that they want, anything to do with it.

NK: What gave you that feeling?

DC: Just the way they answered some of the question. You know, one of the sections in the report was about the RCMP being unprepared for the news conferences and public communication. And, you know, neither commissioner has you know, they both said they hadn't read any of the recommendations. And these are the two spokespeople that the RCMP sent to talk about the report. I mean, I've read, you know, a good number of the recommendations. And these two senior RCMP, the top RCMP members, said they didn't read any recommendations, so they came to the news conference unprepared. Like that's just not right. They either, they're saying they didn't read any of them and just don't want to discuss them or they're totally unprepared to talk about it. The minister was asked, you know, is that okay? Do you think that's okay that your two senior RCMP members showed up and weren't prepared? And then he talked around the question. He didn't give the proper answer. So, I think that just goes to show that it's going to be very difficult to change the culture in the RCMP.

NK: And to be clear, they would have received it as you did in advance of today. They received it yesterday.

DC: Yesterday, yes.

NK: In your testimony during this process, Darrell, you said, quote, "fortunately, I didn't lose my life that day, but I lost the life that I had". So, I'm wondering how you're doing now and how your recovery is going?

DC: Well, I'm still not back to work. You know, my full-time paid job, still off. I'm feeling a little better. You know, I'm treated, being treated for, you know, a couple of different things with PTSD and, you know, depressive disorders, you know, as a result of that day. But, you know, I have support and counselling and I feel like I'm slowly getting better. I'm not getting worse, at least at this point. I'll put it that way.

NK: Thank you so much for sharing that. I think it's really important for people who experience what you did over those days, but also people dealing with other things to hear that. So, thank you and I appreciate your time, Darrell. Thank you so much.

DC: Okay. Thanks. Have a good day. Bye.

NK: You too.

TS: Darrell Currie is deputy fire chief at the Onslow Belmont Fire Brigade. He was in Masstown, Nova Scotia. Another point underscored by the Commission, the role of gender based violence. The commissioners warned that violence in the home can and did spiral outward into the community and they urged everyone to act to change that. Here are Commissioner Leanne Fitch and Commission Chair Michael MacDonald speaking to reporters.

SOUNDCLIP

LEANNE FITCH: When it comes to intimate partner violence, gender based violence, family violence. People still in this day and age look away. People still look away. And that allows that harm and violence to continue to seep out into our communities. And we really, truly believe that the best approach to stopping violence and to preventing mass casualties to the best of our collective ability is to form a whole society response. And that is beginning with prevention of violence first.

REPORTER: One of the recommendations is not directed at government or policing, but on individuals, particularly men. And you're calling on them to take up individual and concerted action against what you call the epidemic of gender based violence. What do you want them to do?

MICHAEL MACDONALD: I was struck by Sue Bookchin of 'Be The Peace', in a September group session that we had, participant group session, and she said, "it's time for men to step up like the men in this room". And I was a man in the room. And what it means is to get help, educate yourself, be humble and honest with yourself. Women have been carrying through community based organizations, the burden of protecting women exclude, almost exclusively for far too long. It's time for men to step up in leadership roles and speak out. We spoke out in our report. I'm speaking out now. So, men who would be perpetrators. We have to educate. We have to have services available for them. But men who are leaders in society have to call it out for what it is. It's an epidemic.

TS: Those were mass casualty commissioners Michael MacDonald and Leanne Fitch.

[Music: guitar]

New Shape

Guest: Craig Kaplan

TS: Researchers have finally found the elusive Einstein. I'm not talking about the late Albert Einstein, the world's most famous physicist. We already know where he is. Or at least I sure hope we know where he is. I'm talking about a very special kind of shape named for the German "ein Stein", which means "one stone". Mathematicians have been searching for one for decades. But until now, they didn't know what one might look like or if one even existed. It has 13 sides, and it looks kind of like a hat. Sort of. In fact, that is what they have called it, "The Hat". Craig Kaplan is a computer scientist at the University of Waterloo. He co-authored a paper that introduced the world to "The Hat". We reached him in Waterloo, Ontario.

NK: Craig, do you see this pattern, "The Hat" everywhere now?

CRAIG KAPLAN: If you mean, do I see it in my dreams? [laughter] Well, not so much, but I do see it all over the Internet now. And I love the experiments people are conducting with it, both mathematical and artistic.

NK: Yeah. I want to talk to you about that a bit more in just a bit. But just tell our listeners why this shape, "The Hat" is so special.

CK: There's a long standing problem in mathematics. Most generally said is, given a set of shapes in what ways can we tile the plain? And lots of tilings are simple and repetitious, like a tiling by squares. You can just repeat squares infinitely in both directions, in a very regular pattern. But some tilings don't repeat in that way. And the most interesting ones are the ones whose shapes force that kind of irregularity. So, we say an a-periodic tile set is one that can form tilings, but none of those tilings can repeat in what we say periodically, you know, in a kind of regular grid. The problem that we were looking at was to find a single shape that accomplishes that. There's been a long chain of research over the last 50 to 60 years trying to reduce the number of shapes you needed to accomplish a-periodicity. But we were stalled at two for about 50 years, and we finally managed to cut down to one.

NK: Why has this fascinated people and mathematicians in particular for so long?

CK: Well, I mean, we started with something like 20 thousand plus shapes to force a-periodicity. And then the Penrose tilings in the 1970s famously got it down to two. Well, that's clearly not going to satisfy mathematicians. And it's almost inevitable that you're going to want to ask, well, what about what is one possible? What would it take to have a shape that can only tile in a non-repetitive way or possibly to prove that no such shape can exist? It was an endlessly fascinating mathematical puzzle.

NK: What were the two shapes?

CK: Penrose's shapes?

NK: Yes.

CK: He came up with a couple of different sets of shapes that tiled a-periodically. The most famous might be the kite and dart. So, you have a kind of a convex, four sided kite shape and a different shape that looks kind of like a V. He also had a different set that were made out of thin and thick rhombuses. And since that time, other mathematicians, including one of my co-authors, have also invented other sets of shapes consisting of two tiles. But again, nobody was able to get down to one.

NK: Until David Smith came along. He's an amateur mathematician from the U.K.

CK: That's right.

NK: When did he first reach out to you and what, you know, does that happen a lot, that amateur mathematicians reach out? You know, how do you process that?

CK: He got in touch with me out of the blue last November. I was familiar with David's explorations of, you know, geometric arrangements of tiles. And he had a real knack for coming up with beautiful drawings based on simple geometric shapes. So, when his email landed in my inbox, I definitely perked up and I was like, there's probably something interesting here.

NK: When did you realize that "The Hat" was an ein Stein? What is that moment like?

CK: That was a really exciting moment. I mean, he first sent me the shape, I think it was on November 20th. And then by the end of the day, on the 24th, I had modified some old software I had created for research previously that would draw me a big patch of half tiles all glued together. And that was an essential step in the research to give us the kind of raw data to inspire our intuition and uncover what the structure of the tiling was. But more importantly to me, just seeing that great big ball of tiles, bigger than you might have been able to find exploring by hand. That was already pretty convincing to me. Like there was clearly something unusual and interesting going on there.

NK: How do you prove that it is what you thought it was?

CK: At a high level that the paper we wrote actually contains two distinct proofs. First of all, you have to show that the shape indeed tiles the plane. So, early in the paper we give an explicit construction, a sequence of instructions that if you follow, you can make as big a grouping of tiles as you want, which implies that you can go out to infinity in every direction. But then you also have to prove that no simpler tiling is possible, that in other words, the construction is not unnecessarily broke and that you know, that simpler tilings exist from the same shapes, simple, periodic tilings. So, the bulk of the proof is to rule out those possibilities.

NK: And we should say the work has not yet been peer reviewed. But what needs to happen next and what's the reaction you've seen so far?

CK: So, we've submitted the work to a journal and that means hopefully the peer review process is underway and it could be months depending on how complicated the job of peer review is. But ultimately, we hope to see the work published and then, you know, we can label it a scientific achievement, I suppose.

NK: And what do you hope, what do you think the big takeaway is from this research?

CK: The big takeaway. I mean, for me, it's simply the beautiful inspiration that can come out of mathematics. I've always been obsessed and passionate about tilings, and particularly their mathematical properties, and it's wonderful to be able to resolve a longstanding open question and, you know, find a new, exciting result that inspires people to hopefully be interested in this topic in mathematics more generally.

NK: Craig, thank you.

CK: Well, it's a pleasure to talk to you. Thanks.

TS: That was Craig Kaplan, a computer scientist whose work focuses on the intersection of math and art. We reached him in Waterloo, Ontario.

[Music: classic rock]

Part 2: Doctrine Of Discovery Repudiated, B.C. Restaurant Closing, Jocelyn Morlock Obit, HIV Remission

Doctrine Of Discovery Repudiated

Guest: Phil Fontaine

TS: The Vatican repudiated the doctrine of discovery today. The doctrine was based on a series of papal statements and decrees used over the centuries to justify the seizure of indigenous lands in Africa and the Americas in the name of spreading Christianity. The rollback of those papal statements was one of the demands put to Pope Francis when Canadian indigenous leaders met with him in the Vatican. And again, when the Pope visited Canada to apologize for the treatment of Indigenous children in residential schools. Phil Fontaine is a former national chief of the Assembly of First Nations. We reached him in Calgary.

NK: Phil Fontaine, I've heard different leaders react differently to this news long awaited news. What was your reaction when you found out?

PHIL FONTAINE: I was really very pleased. Pleased for so many reasons, including the fact that when the Pope came on his pilgrimage to Canada. On the flight back to Rome, he talked about what had happened to our people was genocide. So, that was a major, major statement. We haven't quite figured out what to make of that. And he also committed to speak to the issue of the doctrine of discovery. And that they would do so upon their return to the Vatican.

NK: So, is this a promise fulfilled, a promise kept for you?

PF: Absolutely. It was similar to the promise he made to us in the general audience in St Peter's, that after he had expressed his apology to the delegation, he said, I will visit you on your homelands and I will expand on the apology there. And there was a lot of concern that he wouldn't be able to fulfil that commitment because of his health issues. But he showed up.

NK: The doctrine of discovery. You know, these were the decrees that allowed Indigenous land to be seized during colonial times. They date back to the 15th century. Why was it so important for you and so many others, to hear this from the Vatican to have this?

PF: Well, I mean, it was very important for this to come from the Vatican because they were part and parcel, were central to these events so very long ago where our lands were taken and our people killed in the process, particularly, to the south of us. And that particular stance on the part of the Catholic Church enabled other colonial powers to seize our land, whether we're talking about the United States or Canada or Central and South America.

NK: And how does it impact things today even?

PF: Well, I mean, we're in a different place today. Our people are much stronger in present terms. We're better educated. We're more politically aware and involved. And we've come to look to the courts not just as the last option, but as a remedy.

NK: I was reading that the doctrine has trickled down to even inform some property law even today.

PF: Sure. 1823 In the United States, it was embedded in U.S. law. And the most recent expression of that doctrine was with Ginsburg in, I think, 2005 and the [inaudible] case in the United States. And it hasn't been absent here in Canada. So, to have the Catholic Church through the Holy Father, speak to this issue and say it is not part of the church's teachings. We repudiate it and we are sorry that we were complicit. Indeed, they said, manipulated into giving effect and supporting the conquering people.

NK: I'll read a little bit more from that Vatican statement. They say these decrees, quote, "did not adequately reflect the equal dignity and rights of Indigenous peoples and have never been considered expressions of the Catholic faith". The manipulation you discussed. The Vatican is saying that "the documents were manipulated for political purposes by colonial powers to justify immoral acts against Indigenous peoples that were carried out at times without opposition from ecclesiastical authorities". Repudiate is not the same as rescind. Of course. How do you feel about that?

PF: Well, I'm not going to quibble over words like that. I mean, the fact is it's a very pure and direct statement that the church was wrong. And the nations that came onto our lands and stole our lands and tried to exterminate us. They were wrong. So, whether one uses the word repudiate or rescind to us, that's immaterial. We know the intent of the statement. You know, the meaning is so very clear. So, the church has been largely on our side in the last number of years, for example, supporting the United Nations declaration on Rights of Indigenous People. That's central to us here today.

NK: So, now you feel the church has kept its promise and done its part. Who or what organizations, agencies need to pick things up from here? What needs to happen from here on in?

PF: In my view, directs the Catholic Church and its various entities in Canada. I'm speaking particularly about Canada. Its various entities in Canada to continue on our walk together because that's how they describe what we have to do right, is to walk together on this journey of fixing all of the things that have caused harm to our people over the years because of government's position on the rights of indigenous peoples. And there have been some recent developments that give me hope that things will change and in fact are changing. And we're better situated now than we've been for a long time to actually effect change that is needed and wanted by our people.

NK: Phil Fontaine, thank you so much for your time.

PF: Thank you. Bye.

TS: Phil Fontaine is a former national chief of the Assembly of First Nations. We reached him in Calgary.

[Music: techno]

B.C. Restaurant Closing

TS: If you ever found yourself in Trail, British Columbia with a craving for wanton soup, deep fried prawns, or Singapore noodles, you could always count on the Canton Cafe. There you would inevitably find owners Benny and Ursula Chong, who have fed the people of Trail for almost 53 years. And since the news broke that they'll be retiring and closing up the cafe for good. The place has been packed. As CBC's Radio West discovered when they checked in with the Chong’s yesterday at the tail end of their lunch rush.

SOUNDCLIP

URSULA CHONG: Thank you. Thank you for all the people who support us. All the years.

SARAH PENTON: Oh, is it busy there right now?

URSULA CHONG: Yeah. Yeah.

BENNY CHONG: I run out of stuff every day.

URSULA CHONG: Every day.

SARAH PENTON: Oh, you guys. So how are you keeping stock for the last couple of days? Or does it even matter anymore?

BENNY CHONG: You work 24 hours a day [laughter]. Not just 21 hours.

URSULA CHONG: Yeah. People so, believe in us, to support us.

BENNY CHONG: We are booked solid today already.

URSULA CHONG: People from [inaudible]. Come this morning to pick up some food.

BENNY CHONG: The number seven.

SARAH PENTON: What's the number seven?

BENNY CHONG: Chow mein spirit and [inaudible] combo. His favourite.

SARAH PENTON: Is that the most...

BENNY CHONG: [inaudible] he drove 11 hours to come to pick up eight of them to go home.

SARAH PENTON: Eight orders of the number seven.

BENNY CHONG: Yeah. People bringing in cards and everything and taking pictures and yeah, they love us.

SARAH PENTON: I can tell. I can absolutely tell. Ursula, what are you going to miss the most about closing down your restaurant to not being there?

URSULA CHONG: We miss the people. We grew up together in Trail. Our customers, like, you know, to us, they're like a family.

SARAH PENTON: It must feel so good to have such an outpouring of support and all the people...

BENNY CHONG: Oh yeah, yeah, I've done my job.

SARAH PENTON: You have.

BENNY CHONG: Yeah. I think the whole town does miss us.

SARAH PENTON: Are you going to make a cookbook with your secret recipes and your number seven recipe?

BENNY CHONG: Oh, dear. Everybody want my recipe but I've got no time to teach them.

SARAH PENTON: Friday's your last day. What are you going to do on Saturday?

BENNY CHONG: Saturday we prepare for Sunday's big party. 50 people in my restaurant.

SARAH PENTON: Benny and Ursula. Soak this in. You've deserved it. Congratulations.

BENNY CHONG: Thank you.

URSULA CHONG: Thank you.

TS: Canton Cafe owners Ursula and Benny Chong of Trail, B.C., spoke to Radio West host Sarah Penton yesterday.

[Music: funky]

Jocelyn Morlock Obit

Guest: Carol Todd

TS: Canada has lost a giant in the world of classical music. Jocelyn Morlock, a composer and University of British Columbia music teacher, has died at the age of 53. Ms. Morlock's music was diverse and she took inspiration from the world around her. She once listed her influences as, quote, "birds, insomnia, nature, fear, other people's music and art, nocturnal, wandering thoughts, lucid dreaming, death and the liminal times and experiences before and after death". But she was perhaps most famously influenced by Amanda Todd, the B.C. teenager who took her own life in 2012 after being blackmailed and bullied online. In 2013, the National Arts Centre Orchestra asked Ms. Morlock to write a composition about Amanda's story. It was called "My Name is Amanda Todd". We reached Amanda Todd's mother, Carol Todd, in Vancouver. And just a warning, this interview contains a brief discussion of suicide.

NK: Carol, I know Jocelyn Morlock said, you know, when she was tasked with writing this composition about Amanda, she said she didn't want to write, you know, a requiem. And she wanted to focus on the life that was lived and the energy of your daughter. What did she tell you when you first met?

CAROL TODD: I could just hear it in her voice. It wasn't like, here's a story of a young girl who was bullied, cyber bullied, mental health, died by suicide, and she didn't see any positivity out of that at that moment. And I picked that up. And so, Jocelyn and I connected via email and then we set up a date to meet for tea. And I came with pictures of Amanda and some of Amanda's things so, that I could give her a sense of truly like how Amanda really was. And after 2 hours of chatting and telling stories, she got a sense of Amanda. And she did see how, she felt that she could write a piece of music that conveyed hope.

NK: Well, let's play a little bit of the piece for you and our audience now.

CT: Okay.

SOUNDCLIP

"My Name is Amanda Todd" by Jocelyn Morlock.

NK: That is just part of Jocelyn Morlock's 11 minute piece. The whole piece is so moving and so beautiful, Carol. How does it showcase who Amanda was?

CT: If anyone's followed Amanda's story and her legacy, it's, the symbolism is a snowflake because snowflakes are unique and individual. And so, when the NAC brought in their multimedia technicians, right, they created the visual that went with the music. And so, the music conveys Amanda as a teenager playing with friends and then getting into the Internet. And then there was the dark web. And then at the very end, you have to visualize that a big image of Amanda is portrayed on the stage in the last 30 seconds and then it disappears in pixels. Right. So, it's a very moving composition and people have shared that, that they just feel it.

NK: It is so moving. What was it like when you heard it for the first time?

CT: It's just so emotional. Even, every time I've seen it, or even, I hear the music, it's emotional to me. And it was moving to Jocelyn too, right. I think we both cried together every time we saw it on stage.

NK: You were on stage, Carol, with this song in a few different ways. In 2018, "My Name is Amanda Todd" won a Juno for best Classical composition, and you were there in person for that honour. I'm wondering what you think Amanda would have made of people seeing her name at an event like that and hearing about her in that way?

CT: I was, I was honoured that Jocelyn chose me as her plus one for that night and we giggled through the whole thing and we, like no, it's not going to win, it's not going to win. But what happens if it does win? And then she said, you'll come up with me if we do win, but we won't win. Anyways, and it won. It was just when they were doing the nominations and saying, "My Name is Amanda Todd" on the screen. And knowing that that was Amanda's dream was having her lights flashed up on a screen or a stage. And because ironically, she posted YouTube videos of her singing because she thought one day, you know, every child's dream, every teenager's dream is to be, be famous. Right. In some way. Her wish came true. Although she wasn't alive to see it. And then when Jocelyn's name was announced as the winner of classical composition of the year for "My Name is Amanda Todd", that was just like a wild moment. That was just like. And she grabbed my hand and we went up on stage together. And she said her words of acceptance. And then she let me speak. And that room learned more about Amanda and the piece and what it meant.

NK: It was clearly the start of a friendship you kept in touch with Jocelyn over the years. What was she like as a friend?

CT: We texted all the time. She shared with me what was going on in her life. The ups, the downs. I shared with her what was happening in my life. It was just a really comfortable friendship. And she trusted. And she always thanked me for being there to listen. And she shared with me her struggles with mental health, like throughout the years, also. She really connected with Amanda after she and I got together. And I think that's how she was able to come up with this piece. She was such a caring and kind and compassionate person. She wore her heart on her sleeve. The caring part of her is that at the night of the Junos, after she won, we said, what do we, what can we do to help others more? And we came up with a musical therapy award of distinction in Amanda's memory. And so, we chose Douglas College, and she and I were able to raise 30 thousand dollars in funds to create a forever endowment there. And I'm hoping that maybe I can create one in both her name and Amanda's name. And that will be a forever memory for both of them.

NK: It would be a beautiful memory, a beautiful honour. I'm so sorry for the loss of your friend Carol. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me.

CT: Thank you.

TS: That was Carol Todd, a friend of the late musician Jocelyn Morlock. If you or someone you know is struggling, you can call Talk Suicide Canada at 1-833-456-4566 or look up the Canadian Association for Suicide Prevention online and find a crisis centre in your area.

[Music: soft guitar]

HIV Remission

TS: Paul Edmonds tested positive for HIV in 1988. Like many, he took antiretrovirals to manage the infection for more than 30 years. But a leukaemia diagnosis in 2018 changed everything. As part of his treatment, he received a bone marrow transplant that came with an added history making bonus. His donor was the carrier of a rare HIV resistant gene that exists in roughly 1 per cent of the population. Since the transplant, Edmonds has been able to stop taking his meds and remain HIV free, making him only the fifth person ever known to go into remission from the virus. He shared his story for the first time with Juju Chang on ABC News.

SOUNDCLIP

PAUL EDMONDS: In the beginning it was like a curse. People were afraid of each other. I wasn't ready to be tested because I kind of felt like that's going to be a death sentence.

JUJU CHANG: What was it like sort of, walking into the history books?

PE: I'm really happy I'm able to come out and tell my story.

JC: For Paul Edmonds, the journey started after coming out as gay. The small town Georgia boy moving to San Francisco soon after.

PE: Very exciting. I just had never experienced anything like this.

JC: But by the early eighties, a dark cloud moved over the gay liberation movement. What did people call it?

PE: Gay cancer. It was quite scary. No one really knew what was happening.

JC: But another diagnosis was looming. Paul learned he had leukaemia. You'd been living with HIV for 30 years...

PE: Right.

JC: At that point. And so, what was your gut reaction? What was your immediate reaction?

PE: My immediate reaction was, you know, I feel like my heart just sinks.

JC: What kept you going?

PE: That positive attitude. I wasn't ready to die.

JC: The chemo for the transplant, gruelling. The outcome? Spectacular. What was that like? Hearing the news that this moonshot was even possible?

PE: Yeah, just incredible. That was, like, the best news I've ever heard. I was incredibly grateful. I was grateful to be alive. I was grateful there was a donor. Very, very grateful.

TS: That was Paul Edmonds speaking with ABC News' Juju Chang about how a bone marrow transplant to cure his leukaemia led to remission from HIV.

[Music: meditative]

Part 3: Bolsonaro In Brazil, FOA: N.Y. Gay Attack Arrests, Tree Growth Study, Washington No-Google Town, FOA: Museum Of Failures

Bolsonaro In Brazil

Guest: Cede Silva

TS: Former President Jair Bolsonaro is back in Brazil. Although he lost last year's election, he never really conceded defeat. In fact, he left the country two days before he was due to formally hand over power. Since then, he's been in Florida publicly questioning the results of the vote and watching from afar as his own supporters rioted in the capital. Today, he arrived by plane at the airport in Brasilia, anticipating large crowds. Cede Silva is the Brasilia correspondent for The Brazilian Report. That's where we reached him.

NK: Cede, what was it like? What was the scene like when Bolsonaro landed today?

CEDE SILVA: Well, it was a flop. Bolsonaro and his supporters expected to be received by really large crowds in Brasilia, and it did not happen. The minister that is in charge of [inaudible] in Congress, in the Lula administration, officially said using the English expression, that Bolsonaro's comeback was a flop.

NK: That's a direct, quote, flop. Wow. Why do you think that was the case? Why did it turn out that way?

CS: Well, I can't be sure, but there are, we can speculate some things. One of them is that the election is over. And after the election is over, a lot of people don't really care so much about politics because there is not much effect to you going there. And the other thing is Bolsonaro spent a lot of time in the United States. Almost a full three months in the United States. So, some people or some Bolsonaro fans are feeling kind of abandoned, that their leader was not here in Brazil to lead the opposition to Lula.

NK: Why do you think he's coming back now?

CS: That is a great question. And the question that as a reporter I was not yet able to fully investigate, because the thing is, we know that in late January, Bolsonaro actually applied to change his non-immigrant status in the United States. So, he could extend his stay in the United States. I've spoken to the press office for the Immigration Lawyers Department that is in charge of Bolsonaro staying in the United States and he did not confirm or deny whether or not Bolsonaro's application to remain in the United States was accepted or not by U.S. immigration authorities. So, there is a very good chance the reason he's going back to Brazil is simply because his application was not accepted, and he would be considered an illegal immigrant if he kept staying in the United States.

NK: He's also facing several legal challenges. What is he risking by being back in Brazil right now?

CS: Precisely. So, this is Nil, is one of the reasons why Bolsonaro was probably in the United States and why he wanted to remain in United States, because now that he's back and a few days from now, he will have to testify on one of the, one of the investigations against him, which is the recent investigation about the Saudi jewels. So, this has been in the Brazilian news cycle for over a month, for almost a month now. And there are several revelations with lots of documents and videos that Bolsonaro himself or his assistants tried and sometimes successfully obtained jewels and other gifts from the Saudi Arabia government and also from other governments in the Gulf states. The other investigation that is, has been going on and has already placed in jail one of Bolsonaro's former ministers, is the investigation on the January 8th riots. So, as you know, in January 8th, Brazilian pro Bolsonaro demonstrators, they took a page from Donald Trump's playbook and they staged a similar event to January 6th in Brazil, storming the buildings, housing all three branches of government.

NK: I know he met with his party today. How did that meeting go?

CS: Well, there were only a few people there, a few of his supporters, and he met with the chairman of his party Valdemar Costa Neto, which is a very seasoned politician, a very smart person, and was almost an ally to the Lula administration. Valdemar Costa Neto actually early this year while Bolsonaro was in Florida, was trying to distance himself from Bolsonaro, and he publicly said in an interview with CNN Brazil that he wanted Michelle Bolsonaro, Bolsonaro's wife and the former first lady as the candidate for potentially 2026. And Bolsonaro not to be a candidate anymore. And the reason that Bolsonaro fell back to the Liberal Party, supposedly he will carry out the mission of trying to win elections for mayor next year. So, late 2024, Brazil will hold elections for mayor in over 5000 cities, and Bolsonaro will play a role in endorsing candidates for these races.

NK: So, do you expect that Bolsonaro is going to have quite a presence in Brazilian politics, given what you just said and his wife?

CS: Well, the [inaudible] for Bolsonaro, first, they are going to be hindered by something that might put a real damper to Bolsonaro's ambition, because the thing is, in the next few months, the Brazilian superior electoral court is scheduled to judge on a lawsuit that might render Bolsonaro unable to run for office. This lawsuit is because last year, while Bolsonaro was still president, he hosted most of the foreign ambassadors at the presidential residence, and it did a PowerPoint presentation on how the Brazilian electoral system was supposedly fraudulent, which is completely untrue. And so, while a left wing party sued Bolsonaro for this, and it's very likely that the court will decide that Bolsonaro cannot run for office anymore. And in fact, Bolsonaro himself has openly talked about this, and the party is now openly considering the fact that Bolsonaro will not run for office. And instead Bolsonaro is sort of a spokesman or a guru to the far right. So, when Bolsonaro is considered ineligible, not able to run for office, it's kind of a consolation prize. Oh, but we've got Michelle.

NK: Cede, thank you.

CS: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

TS: Cede Silva is a journalist with The Brazilian Report. We reached him in Brasilia.

[Music: xylophone]

FOA: N.Y. Gay Attack Arrests

TS: They were drugged, robbed and in some cases left for dead. Last year, a number of gay men in New York City had drugs slipped into their drinks and were forced into cars. Some survived the attacks and found their bank accounts emptied. At least two of the men died. Now, The New York Times has reported that six people have been arrested and four others are wanted in connection with the attacks. Police have not yet officially confirmed those arrests. Back in December, Nil spoke to New York Council member Erik Bottcher. Here is part of that interview from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

ERIK BOTTCHER: We learned about the death of Julio Ramirez earlier this year, and initially the police thought it was an overdose because he was found dead in a taxi. But it was found after the fact that his bank account had been accessed and thousands of dollars had been stolen from him. We later found out about John Umberger, who was also found dead and robbed. And turns out that there's a number of other incidents of people being robbed after leaving nightclubs.

NK: What are the gay men in your district telling you? What are they saying? How are they feeling?

EB: There's a lot of apprehension right now. And this is all part of an environment where our community is under attack. Nationally, we had a terrible attack on an LGBTQ club in Colorado. There is a great amount of rhetoric against our community right now that's coming from the far right. We're being attacked on social media. So, this is a very difficult time, but people are vigilant. I'll tell you that we are not going to be cowed. We are not going to be intimidated. We are not going to stay home. We are going to continue to go out and assert our rights to be ourselves and assert our strength as a community.

NK: Why do you think the gay community, gay men in particular, are being targeted right now in 2022 in New York?

EB: It's hard to put into words how upsetting at the times of our community. There is an emerging right wing, far right wing, and they are waging war on drag queen story hours and portraying our community as sexual predators. And these are tropes that have been trotted out against our community since the beginning of time. So, it's nothing new, but there is a new voice being given to these people with social media and far right media. And it unfortunately is manifesting itself in many different ways. So, we are being vigilant as a community and we are fighting back, We are pushing back and we're not going to be cowed. We're not going to be intimidated. We're not going to be pushed back into the closet.

TS: From December, that was New York Council member Eric Bottcher talking about a series of drug rings and attacks on gay men in the city. The New York Times is reporting that six people have now been arrested in connection with the attacks.

[Music: slow techno]

Tree Growth Study

Guest: Kellen Calinger-Yoak

TS: One of the hardest parts about doing good climate change research is finding good historical data. For the most part, scientists in earlier centuries weren't running around with notebooks and writing down intricate details about the weather and the passing seasons and the changing leaves. But luckily, a few people were, including a 19th century Ohio farmer named Thomas Mikesell. And according to researchers today, his records and writings may be the most comprehensive records we have about pre warming North American tree growth. Ohio State University biologist Kellen Calinger-Yoak recently had the good fortune of stumbling upon this treasure trove. We reached her in Columbus, Ohio.

NK: Kellen, can you tell me who was Thomas Mikesell?

KELLEN CALINGER YOAK: Thomas Maxwell was a farmer that lived up in northwestern Ohio at the turn of the 20th century. But on top of being a farmer, he was also a really excellent community scientist. He started taking multiple times, daily records of the temperature around his farmhouse and then also added on looking at what plants were doing in his area. And initially it was purely a hobby for him. But then as he kept going, he thought that his data that he was gathering could potentially be useful to the scientific community one day. And so, he kept on gathering data about when plants were putting out their leaves and flowers in the spring, when they were making fruit and when their leaves turned colours and fell off of the trees in the fall for 30 years. And it ended up that he produced probably one of the most complete and detailed records of the timing of these key life events in plants in most, if not all, of North America.

NK: And what happened to those 30 years of detailed and remarkable notes after he died? I'm just, I'm wondering how you got your hands on them in the end.

KCY: So, they were published in 1915 in an Ohio Weather Review Journal. But then they didn't really get a whole lot of attention for a long time after that. In the mid eighties, there was a paper that used his data, but really other than that one modelling study, it didn't really go anywhere. So, when I was starting my work, I was doing a little bit of background reading and I found that modelling paper. And so, I worked with a biological sciences librarian at Ohio State who helped me find a digitized copy of all of Mikesell's temperature records and all of his observations. So, after that I went up to found where his farmhouse used to be and realized that I could make contemporary observations to see how things have changed in just over a century of global warming.

NK: Did you think jackpot when you looked at what he had kept?

KCY: Yeah, I kind of did to be honest. So, like I said, these historic datasets are really rare. They're pretty rare globally, but especially rare in most places outside of portions of Asia and Europe. So, the idea that I could find one, one geographically close enough to me that I could find the original location and go there regularly myself, but also one that was so incredibly high quality was really pretty shocking.

NK: Why is it so rare, though? Why aren't there more Mikesell's out there who are keeping these copious notes about their properties?

KCY: Well, one, there probably are more out there that we just don't know about because they never got into a published form where we can find them. And then two, honestly, because people are really busy, especially back in the day when living, was quite a bit harder than it is now. I'm guessing that a lot of people just didn't have the time, energy and resources to be able to do it. You know, managing to keep up any practice for 30 years is a pretty impressive feat.

NK: You didn't just look at these notes. You went out walking. Take us through what you did.

KCY: So, I went up to Wauseon and went to the city building so that I could find old property records and figure out exactly where in Wauseon his farmhouse had been. And I went to that site and looked around and I found three different wood lots that were really close to where Mikesell's farmhouse had been. And then I visited those plots about twice a week in the spring and fall for five years and looked at exactly when leaves came out in the spring and when they coloured and fell off in the autumn.

NK: And just for those of our listeners who love trees, you looked at the American elm, black walnut, the white oak, the black oak, eastern cottonwood, staghorn sumac and the sassafras. If I'm not mistaken. And then you compared Mikesell's data with your own. So, what did that reveal?

KCY: So, it basically showed that things have changed a lot. One of the big things, obviously that was really the premise of the study was thinking about how global warming had potentially impacted this locality. And it turned out that it's gotten a lot warmer in Wauseon over the past 120 odd years. So, February was the one that got the very warmest of all over time, with about 2.9 degrees Celsius of temperature increase since Mikesell was around. But, you know, that warming was pretty broad across the winter and spring months.

NK: And the trees had longer growing seasons as a result.

KCY: Yeah. So, what I found was that most of the extension of growing season was because fall was happening later and that was pretty consistent from year to year. So, every single one out of the seven, but cottonwood is having leaves colour later in the fall than they did 100 years ago.

NK: And how does all of that help us try to mitigate the effects of climate change?

KCY: Well, ultimately, a couple of things. One is that we can understand how the changing timing of these events might be increasing the amount of CO2 being drawn down from the atmosphere over what we would predict. So, the longer that plants have to grow, the longer potential for photosynthesis and therefore maybe more carbon storage. So, really thinking about what this means for current impacts of the biosphere at carbon pools and how much potential benefit we could have from increasing the amount of vegetation to draw down even more CO2 out of the atmosphere and, you know, slow that rate of CO2 accumulation in the atmosphere that's causing all this warming.

NK: You still have a long career ahead of you. Where do you think Thomas Mikesell will fit as you look back on your career?

KCY: If not for Thomas Mikesell none of this research would be possible. So, I'm hoping that by shedding some light on the importance that Thomas Mikesell as an incredible scientist in every way that's important, that it can inspire other people to think about the contributions they could make. So, if we can harness that power of just everybody in our community recording what they see in some meaningful way, that would be a really powerful tool for scientists.

NK: Kellen, Thank you.

KCY: Yeah, it was a real pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

TS: That was Kellen Calinger-Yoak, an assistant professor of evolution, ecology and organismal biology at Ohio State University. We reached her in Columbus, Ohio.

[Music: funky]

Washington No-Google Town

Guest: Brain Calder

TS: People living in Point Roberts, Washington are used to being forgotten about by their fellow Americans. Sort of a hard place to get to. But when a journalist in Vancouver noticed that even Google Street View hadn't been to Point Roberts, well, that put Point Roberts on the map, figuratively, anyway. Brian Calder lives in Point Roberts which is where we reached him.

NK: Brian, I've had the opportunity to go to Point Roberts. Would you say it's hard to get there?

BRIAN CALDER: Well, it's not hard in the sense of if you're organized, especially if you have a Nexus card which gives you preferential, preferred traveller status. But it's too onerous for the risk involved. You've probably been here when you lived on the West Coast and come down here. I mean, were three sides water, five square miles and a thousand people?

NK: What do you mean by the risk? What do you mean by that?

BC: Well, the lockdown was really... I mean, we suffered more than anybody in North America, wrongly. I mean, we couldn't go anywhere. It's like if you have built a fence around your local neighbourhood in Toronto or whatever, and you can't go outside. That's what we faced for two years.

NK: Yeah. I wonder when I asked, is it hard to get to, I wondered, you know, from the Google Maps perspective. But let me ask you this. Google Maps has been to some very remote locations, the Arctic, the Amazon rainforest. You know, they strap cameras to camels when they need to, but there's no street view of your town. So, why do you think that is?

BC: Well, neglect again, Point Roberts is neglected by our own government, and that permeates through. I mean, I can throw a rock and hit the roof of a house in Tsawwassen that, we're a hundred feet apart. And yet they didn't come through the border to do our, we're tiny, five square miles.

NK: Why do you think they haven't come through?

BC: They haven't come through to do anything here, ever. I mean, they've even gone to the desert and Saudi Arabia and third world countries, and they've got street views of them. Nothing here. Nothing.

NK: Have you reached out to them to say, come on down? What do they say?

BC: Well, the Delta Optimist newspaper did. And so, he was going back, the reporter was going back and forth with them. And then he made me aware of it. I wasn't aware because I never bothered... I drive the streets every day, I don't look them up because I know what every angle is. But from a tourist standpoint or an outsider standpoint, we'd love to see it happen. So, he got back and forth with them and finally they quit talking to him. They were not responding to any of his inquiries. So, I don't know what they're up to, but the Chamber of Commerce is asking them, and I'd share it, locally here, asking them to please come down, we'll drive you around, we'll take you to lunch, whatever it takes to get you here, please pay attention to us. We need the attention our economy has got... We've got post COVID, long COVID from the economy being hammered the way it has been by us being locked down. It changed people's habits that came here. And 85 per cent of our economy is driven by Canadians, not Americans. And 70 per cent of our local properties are owned by Canadians, not Americans. Our water, our power comes from British Columbia, Canada. So, we're basically an extension of Canada. From every angle you look at, from access to veterinarians, doctors, we go into Ladner and Tsawwassen in British Columbia.

NK: When I was first reading, when I was first reading about this story, at first I thought, you know, some people, some towns might like being under the radar. But then I did think it must have an economic impact in terms of tourism as well. But if so many people, it's such a small place and so many people are, you know, long term visitors or dual citizens such as yourself, do you really need to be on the Google map?

BC: Well, we don't need to be, but I'd like to have it on there so, that people who are considering coming here start looking at Point Roberts as a possible holiday spot. I mean, our cross-border crossings go from, you know, up to 5000 for a population of 1000. That's a huge economic impact for the four or five months of the spring, summer, fall. And so, the more attention we can get paid to Point Roberts, the more it's going to benefit our survival economically because we're in big trouble. We're still down from the COVID lockdown, 40 per cent. So, instead of getting 110 thousand people through November, December, January, February, we got 60 thousand. So, we're off 40-ish per cent.

NK: Finally, did end up on Google Street View and people could check it out virtually. What would you like people to know about Point Roberts?

BC: Well, look us up and see just how unique we are and come down here. Take a look. We want to get the people back to experiencing Point Roberts.

NK: What's your favourite thing in Point Roberts? What's your favourite part about where you call home?

BC: Basically, what Mother Nature gave us. We've got lots of green, we've got lots of tree, forested areas and trails, bike trails through them. We've got seven miles of foreshore, seven miles of water and, and then in the 49th parallel, which is a Canadian boundary. So, everywhere you've got to look and see is a view. Great water, just a beautiful spot.

NK: Well I've had the, I've had the opportunity to visit and it is from what I remember a very lovely place and I bet our listeners in the United States and in Canada and abroad too, are probably looking it up right now. Brian, thank you so much for your time.

BC: Thank you for your support.

TS: We reached Brian Calder in Point Roberts, Washington. We made our own inquiries to Google about Point Roberts and did not hear back before airtime.

[Music: electronic beats]

FOA: Museum Of Failures

TS: I'll admit it. I've made some mistakes in my life. You could even call them failures. Like the time I tried roller skating or cutting my own bangs and all that other stuff. And sometimes those failures weigh on me. But then I remember even the most successful of us have failed at something. Like when Colgate, the people who make toothpaste tried their hand in the food business, unleashing into the world their own frozen beef lasagna, TV dinner. If you've never heard about that business blunder, it's probably because Colgate did everything, they could to bury their bizarre and uncalled for entry into the premade pasta space. But Samuel West has made it his mission to dig up those mistakes and put them on display for the world. He's the founder and curator of the Museum of Failures. His 150 item collection celebrates the less triumphant parts of human innovation. His exhibit just opened in New York City. But we spoke to Samuel on this show back in 2017 when he first developed the idea. Here's his conversation with former As It Happens host Carol Off.

SOUNDCLIP

SAMUEL WEST: Well, I've got Kodak's first digital camera for consumers. The actual camera wasn't actually a failure. It was a failure to adopt the business model. That's one example. Another example on another end of the scale is, Bic the pen manufacturer, 2011, they created a pen just for women. [laughter] You know that women can't use regular pens. [cross talk]

CAROL OFF: I've been having that problem all my life. I've been just waiting for a pen designed for me. [more laughter]

SW: Well, lucky you. And there's double the price of regular pens. Because especially for women.

CO: I understand you have a Harley Davidson perfume.

SW: [laughter] Yeah, that's a great one. Yeah, I think it's a '96. Harley Davidson thought that they would sort of get some more money out of their brand. And so, they launched a series of other products, including this perfume called the "Hot Rod Collection". My colleagues at the office say, I put it on when I finally got a hold of it. And then they said, somebody smells like urine.

CO: Oh, no!

SW: [laughter] I think that's unfair. I mean, it's, you know, it's been in the bottle for a long time. I think it's unfair, but it's not the best perfume.

CO: Samuel, why did you decide to do this? Why, I mean, we like to celebrate, you know, the successes, the ingenuity of humanity. Why did you decide to go for its failures?

SW: Well, I'm an innovation researcher, and I got kind of fed up with everybody's worshipping success. I know. And everybody in the business knows that 80 to 90 per cent of all innovation projects fail. But we never hear anything about them. They're thrown into margins. Everybody wants to sort of showcase their successes and say, oh, we want to learn from best practices. That's fine. But when 90 per cent fail, there's a lot of things to be learned from the failures as well. So, I started collecting a few, I was trying to get my hands on some of the failures that I knew about, and then it turned into an obsession. So, one of the purposes of the museum is to encourage people to actually investigate, examine and try to, instead of avoiding talking about failures and discussing it. Actually, you know, examine it and try to learn as much as possible from the failures that are being done.

TS: That was former As It Happens host Carol Off speaking with Samuel west, the curator of the Museum of Failures, in 2017. The museum has now succeeded in opening in New York.

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March 30, 2023 Episode Transcript