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The AIH Transcript for March 29, 2023

Prologue

NIL KOKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight,

NK: Words of artificial wisdom. Hundreds of experts sound the alarm about what they call the profound risks of rapidly advancing AI and say developers need to smarten up about making it smarter.

CH: Fuel to the fire. After a deadly blaze at a migrant detention centre in Mexico, security footage raises questions about why officials didn't do more to help those trapped inside.

NK: Beyond the paleo. A new lab grown meatball is huge, and it's also mammoth because they cultivated the meat using the DNA of the long extinct woolly mammoth.

CH: Kings in the making. For 16 seasons, the Sacramento Kings have failed to make the NBA playoffs. But tonight, that losing streak could end. One fan is inspired by the battle royale required to get here.

NK: Several doorknobs. Just the one door, though. A number of Australian parliamentarians are officially reprimanded after scrambling for the exit to avoid a vote and injuring a staffer in the process.

CH: And can-id camera. We'll talk to the curator of a major art exhibition dedicated entirely to portraits of dogs. I'm not sure if he was keen to put it together at first, but people kept hounding him. As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that would describe all the models as fetching.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: AI Open Letter, Mammoth Meatball, Dog Portraits, Parliament Kerfuffle

AI Open Letter

Guest: Gary Marcus

CH: Their intelligence may be artificial, but according to the signatories of a new open letter, the potential dangers of A.I. systems are all too real. A thousand experts and industry leaders, including Elon Musk, have signed that open letter calling for a pause on developing A.I. that is more powerful than the current state of the art Chat GPT 4. The letter from the Future of Life Institute says, quote, "human competitive intelligence can pose profound risks to society and humanity", unquote. Some of those risks have already been seen in the current batch of A.I. systems. Gary Marcus signed that letter. He's a cognitive scientist and the author of Rebooting A.I. We reached him in Vancouver.

NK: Gary, why did you decide to put your name on this letter?

GARY MARCUS: Because we're in an unprecedented moment in history where we suddenly have an A.I. system that is widespread, ubiquitous, even, but not really debugged and not really regulated either. We don't really know the consequences. We're seeing new consequences every day that seem somewhat serious. And we have the possibility of much more serious consequences.

NK: You wrote on Twitter, quote, "we have a perfect storm of corporate irresponsibility, widespread adoption, lack of regulation, and a huge number of unknowns". What are some of those other unknowns that you are so worried about?

GM: Well, I think it's pretty clear that criminals are among the people who are looking at these things. And we don't really know what clever criminals are going to do with this stuff. So, there's that side of it. There was a report yesterday from Europol talking about how it might be used for terrorism, how it might be used for phishing people's credentials, and might do that again at unprecedented scale. I think we just don't really know yet.

NK: What surprises you most about A.I.'s capabilities right now?

GM: I'm not really surprised by the capabilities, per se. You know, the systems that we're seeing now are an extension of systems that we saw a year ago, that are extensions of a system a year before that. But I'm surprised how quickly they got adopted by the general public. So GPT 3 was already very well known. The Guardian wrote an op ed with it, the New York Times featured it, but the general public wasn't really taking to it and it wasn't really available to the general public. And then it got released, and I don't think anybody expected that a hundred million people would use it overnight. And we may not see the same problems that we're starting to see or might not be so worried if it was only maybe a thousand people trying it out. But when you go to that scale, all kinds of things might happen.

NK: Those 100 million people, though, are the majority, not just, you know, testing it out for the novelty of it, to see if they can write an essay or write a script for a show, that sort of thing.

GM: For sure. I mean, I think a lot of the uses are innocuous, but we don't really have a handle yet. This is what the Europol report was about. We don't really have a handle on what bad actors might be doing with it. You know, each day we are seeing signs of things we hadn't really even thought about. Like there's a whole range of them. People are using it to write, you know, child porn possibly at scale. There was a science fiction magazine that had open submissions and had to shut down because there were so many fake submissions to it. We just don't really know the kind of surface area of all the possibilities here.

NK: We've reported on telephone scams as well.

GM: Exactly. Maybe that was part of what the Europol report was about, is that it's probably not that hard to use these tools to get people's credentials. Romance scams. There's just so many. I've been thinking of it a little bit like a hydra with many different heads. And we just, we haven't taken the time to really understand that yet.

NK: What would a pause on development actually accomplish, do you think?

GM: It would give regulators a chance to catch up. I mean, the reality is that governments can't move as fast as this stuff is moving. We needed some time to figure out what we should be doing here.

NK: Just to go back to one of the original concerns, you talked about, disinformation. Just give us some specific examples of what a system without guardrails might be able to do.

GM: Well, even with the guardrails, these systems can do quite a lot. It's easier if you're a bad actor to use them without guardrails. But I have a friend who's an expert in jailbreaking, these things. I'm about to give a TED talk, and I said, can you make something up about the TED conference? And a few minutes later, I gave him some specific details that I'll share with the world in a couple of weeks. And, you know, he made a conspiracy theory to order that sounded completely plausible and then invoked some real facts and some fake facts. Another time I asked him to make up stories about COVID and vaccines. And the system could make like dozens of them instantly with as much detail as you want about studies that didn't actually happen. Data that isn't real. And this is with or without the guardrails. It's, you know, it takes a little bit of expertise. But if you're a troll farm or something like that, you can quickly develop that expertise. You can also use large language models that are available on the dark web that don't even have the guardrails, and you can create all. Kinds of compelling things in as much detail as you like. Most ordinary humans are not built to be able to discriminate what's true and what's false that's coming out of these systems.

NK: Is it too late, though? Is the genie out of the bottle?

GM: Some, yes. Some no. So, large language models to create misinformation I think are here to stay. And we have to address that through regulations around producing misinformation at large scale, which we don't really have. But there are other technologies that haven't been built yet, so nobody knows how to make one of these systems actually reason intelligent ways, the ways humans do, and that might bring with it new risks. You know, maybe we want to delay that until we understand it better.

NK: What kind of direct advice would you give to officials and governments about what they need to do specifically at this stage?

GM: Another thing I think we need to think about is we're probably going to need to build new tools, just like we've built tools for spam detection, cybersecurity and so forth. And we might ask whether the private sector is really going to pay for those tools or whether the government might need to. Nobody wants to pay more money, but if the consequence is the end of democracy because nobody believes anything, it might actually be worth having government sponsored tools to do things like fight misinformation. So, that's another example. Another thing governments might want to do is to increase requirements around transparency. So, GPT 4 is completely opaque. We don't know what's in it. We don't know how it was trained. Open A.I. is saying there are lots of potential risks here. It's not just me saying that there are these risks. This is why in a thousand people signed this open letter. So, we know there is risk, but we have no idea what's inside the so-called black box. That makes it hard for scientists to do anything to fix these things. And so, we might insist that systems are more interpretable, more transparent, so that we can address the problems that they have.

NK: Gary, thank you.

GM: Thanks very much.

CH: We reached Gary Marcus in Vancouver.

[Music: funky techno]

Mammoth Meatball

Guest: Tim Noakesmith

CH: If you're looking for an amazing meatball, there are some obvious places to go. The local mom and pop Sub shop, for example, or the nearest location of a Swedish furniture chain. You probably would not go to a science and technology museum or back in time. But at the Nemo Science Museum in Amsterdam yesterday, visitors’ kind of did both. As they were treated to the unveiling of a meatball. And oh, what a meatball it is. An awe inspiring meatball created in a lab using the DNA of the long extinct woolly mammoth. The mammoth meatball is the creation of the Australian Cultured meat company, Vow. We reached its founder, Tim Noakesmith, in Amsterdam.

NK: Tim, I am looking at the calendar as we speak. April Fools Day is coming up, so, I need you to go on the record here. Are you guaranteeing that this mammoth meatball is not an early April Fool's Day prank?

TIM NOAKESMITH: You have my absolute word that this is a real, this is a real innovation. I'm not going to turn around in a few days and tell you it was one big joke.

NK: Okay, We've got it on tape now. What's the response been from museum visitors in Amsterdam?

TN: It's been massive. Yeah, we had quite a lot of press at our event in the museum yesterday. Everyone wants to talk about it. So, I've had a lot of interviews today, that's for sure.

NK: I bet. I've seen some images. It is quite large. Just describe it for our listeners what it looks like and smells like.

TN: Well, it's a mammoth meatball. So, it would be amiss of us to make it small. In terms of how it looks. It looks like a giant meatball. It looks like a meatball you'd expect from a mammoth. It's charred on the outside because to cook it, we needed to use a blowtorch on the outside after an oven bake. And in terms of the aroma, it's, it's super interesting. The mammoth protein that we ended up growing produced a, quite a unique aroma that was closer to things that we've tried like crocodile than it was to beef.

NK: Okay, most of us haven't smelled crocodile meat, at least anybody I know. So, is there any way to describe it?

TN: It's look, I would say it's a meaty aroma, but it's definitely a bit unique. So, perhaps your listeners will have to try some crocodile.

NK: I'm sort of the mind that always, you know, try everything once. I never, you know, say no to new food experiences. Rarely do. It doesn't look that appetizing. Now, was that something you took into consideration? Was this just to become a conversation starter? Are you worried that maybe it doesn't look appetizing to folks?

TN: I mean, it looks like a giant meatball. And I think unless you're really hungry, that might not look super appetizing, perhaps for our ancestors 4000 years ago when it went extinct. Maybe this was a delectable looking meal. But you're absolutely right. This was, rather than thinking about something that you can to go and pick up at the supermarket on a Friday night. It's something that we really just wanted to trigger a conversation about, about the future of food and about how it can look better and different than maybe what we're having now.

NK: We've had some conversations about lab grown meat or cultured meat, but just give our listeners a sense of what exactly we're talking about here.

TN: Yeah, basically we're looking at a new way to make meat, so a new way to seed cities and countries. And the way that we do that as we grow the cells of animals, in this case in big metal tanks instead of the animals themselves. So, we don't require large amounts of farmland or the kind of resources that go into that and the impact. Instead, we can do the same, but in a better way in electrified facilities.

NK: And how do you make mammoth DNA part of that process?

TN: Yeah, well, in this instance, the mammoth is quite a good and intact genome. So, it means that we have the DNA language of the mammoth. But like anything that's that old, it has gaps in it. So, what our team of scientists did is it filled the gaps with the genome of the African elephant, which is a very close relative. And then what we were able to do then is go into that DNA language and find the code responsible for a very specific protein. So, in this instance, it's something called myoglobin, which is responsible for a lot of the colour and aroma in the meat that we eat. And basically, we took that DNA language, inserted it into another cell, and that cell became like a factory, basically producing a protein that hasn't been on the planet for 4000 years now. And so, we grew 40 billion of these cells to end up making the mammoth meatball that you've seen in those images.

NK: And you picked the mammoth of all the extinct creatures in the world on purpose. Why?

TN: Well, two reasons. I mean, one, it's really to draw attention and start this conversation that the future of food can be different now. It can be more exciting. We can start to eat things that weren't possible before when we thought about our farming systems and domesticated animals. But the other one is that the mammoth is a symbol of loss. They were wiped out by climate change. And humans if we continue to scale that the way that we are and the way that we eat now, we're quite likely to potentially be the same, wipe ourselves out. And so, we wanted to draw attention to this idea that this can now be a symbol of hope. Maybe we can eat our way out of extinction instead of, like the mammoth was 4000 years ago.

NK: There's a reason I haven't asked what it tastes like yet, because it's not to be eaten. This mammoth meatball. Why is that?

TN: Well, I mean, again, we're dealing with a protein that's very, very old. In fact, there's no one on earth that can tell you exactly how that'll responded stomach. That's not to say that it wouldn't be safe, but we would want to put it through a large series of rigorous testing like we would with any product that we want to bring to market. Because it was a conversation starter. We built it and we released it to the world. Instead of doing all of that rigorous testing so, that we could do the tasting. So, it was never intended to be a new product to commercialize. It was intended to start a conversation like this.

NK: I'm sure you've heard Jurassic Park come up, the film, when people talk to you about this. But in all seriousness, there are, people do have concerns and wonder if there's sort of a Pandora's box being opened here when you're tinkering with the DNA of a long extinct species.

TN: Sure. Well, I can safely say that there's zero chance that the meatball is going to take flight and start attacking anyone.

NK: You're on, your own record now on two major points. Yes, we'll see.

TN: [laughter] But it's a fair question you ask. I mean, we are using very advanced biological genetic engineering techniques for this. But like any product, it can't come to market without seriously rigorous testing that is then filtered by regulators to see if it's generally regarded as safe. They're very strict on this, as you can imagine. We're very strict on it too, to make sure that anything that we produce is absolutely fit and safe for human consumption.

NK: Tim, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

TN: Thank you. Great to chat.

CH: Tim Noakesmith is the founder of the Australian Cultured Meat Company, Vow. We reached him in Amsterdam.

[Music: slow piano]

Dog Portraits

Guest: Xavier Bray

CH: I am a cat person all the way back to my childhood. Every time I open my laptop at home, one of my cats comes over to help me type, despite not understanding keyboards or the human alphabet. And even though their hair gets everywhere, and they think that... scratch that, they know they're better than me. I just like having cats around. I'm used to their emotional ambivalence, as opposed to the ride or die loyalty and unconditional love of dogs. But don't tell art historian Xavier Bray. He is the curator of the first major exhibition dedicated exclusively to portraits of dogs. It opens tonight at the Wallace Collection Museum in London. We reached Mr. Bray there.

NK: Xavier, just describe some of your favourite paintings from this exhibit.

XAVIER BRAY: Well, there's one by David Hockney, which shows his beloved doxin, Stanley sitting upwards in this sort of, straight line. And Hockney was very, very nervous the back of this doxin that might break. And because of this new pose, he taken. So, he gave himself three minutes to paint it very quickly. But it's one of the greatest images in the exhibition. It's very colourful, very lively. And of course, he loved his dogs so much and they gave him so much back. So, I suppose that's one of my favourite pictures in the exhibition.

NK: I want to talk about Stanley more in just a bit, but there was another big name dropped there, David Hockney. So, clearly these are not amateur works that we're talking about.

XB: No, we've managed to bring together a really amazing selection of dog portraits that really range from the antique, from Roman, first century A.D., Right, to Lucian Freud and Hockney, and painters such as Stubbs, Landseer, Gainsborough all come up as really quite wonderful portrait painters of dogs. Of course, you know, they're well known for either portraits of humans or of horses, but dogs seems to have been an area that they really excelled in. And to this day nobody's really celebrated this. So, for us, it's a great opportunity really to look at these anew and reconsider them as great works of art. These portraits of dogs are actual reflections of the humans that they belong to. They are dogs, but they are the souls of the owners or the artist and very much present in their expressions or the way they behave.

NK: I saw some of them in the exhibit trailer and they are incredibly beautiful and detailed, just fascinating works. When you mention the connections to the humans. I'll go back to Stanley and David Hockney. Apart from loving these dogs, there was a reason the connection was even deeper. Can you tell me about that?

XB: I can. I mean, David Hockney, very openly mentions the fact that, you know, he had many friends who died from AIDS, that he was, I think, in a difficult time, quite a time of solitude. And suddenly these two little creatures, he calls them, you know, come into his life and he gets pretty obsessed by them and decides to paint them. He spends a good month and a half, with them, sketching them, watching them. And he says, I mean, there's a lovely quote, you know, how he notices their warm shapes they make together, their sadness and their delight. And then he says, and being Hollywood dogs, they somehow seem to know that a picture is being made. So, there's a lot of wit there as well. It's just wonderful to, for him to see the pleasure he gets from painting them, but also what they give back to him.

NK: And they start hamming it up a little bit because they know that they're the centre of attention. As you look through the exhibit, as our societies evolve throughout history. How do you see that represented and how feelings change or maybe deepen towards dogs?

XB: I mean, the show opens with this antique sculpture and you'd think that maybe in Roman times they would just go for a face straight in a representation of a dog. But actually, it shows two dogs, male and female, with the female biting the ear of the man dog, they seem to be very in love, very tender. And it's almost an allegory of human love. And you wonder why it was commissioned, what it was sold for, we don't know, unfortunately, its original function. But you know that emotion is there very early on and it seems to really carry on right through to the present. At the same time, though, there is specific functions of those portraits and some that we have showed aristocratic dogs, dogs that are working, the breeds that were specially put together so that they could hunt and get the game and bring it back. So, you know, very intelligent dogs, but very active and strong and they're depicted like sort of classical relief. They look like powerful, almost Caesar like beings as they stand there looking in profile. So, you know, the painters wanting to show the very best of the dog. So, that's interesting. And that provides an interesting contrast with the other pictures that might be a bit more emotional and touching.

NK: I have a hunch you're a dog person. Yes.

XB: I am. It's not that I'm, that's not why this happened, but I happen to have grown up with dogs. And I think that's one of the great things that your parents can offer you, this idea of looking after a dog and it helps through life. There's no doubt about it. And my children insist that we have pugs. So, we went for pugs.

NK: What are their names?

XB: One is called Lady Wallace, Bluebell. So, she's rather grand, but of course, very down to earth. And then she had a son during the second lockdown, called Winston. So, they come, they're here right beside me, snoring away in their basket.

NK: You were going to say something about pugs. You don't think that was the right choice?

XB: [chuckles] Well, I think my children were very keen on the fact that they're quiet, you know, they're very cheeky and misbehaved. I think that's why they went for them. I like bigger dogs. Dogs that, you know, are slender, long and fast and more male I would say. But I have learnt, I've discovered that I do love pugs as well. So, that's good.

NK: So, my co-host, Chris, is absolutely a cat person. Our listeners will know that mostly because he won't let us forget it. Do you think there is something cat people can take away from this exhibit?

XB: It's a really good question and a funny enough, we got a review yesterday and the review came from a cat person and of course they did not love the show as much as other people have loved the show. So, I think the cat lovers who come to see it, they might find it a bit too much, [laughter] to be surrounded by dog portraits. But the first thing I would go and do is find out whether cats were depicted in similar ways or is there such a genre of cat portraiture? Is it, can it be equalled? And I would love to know. I mean, I did do a bit of research and I did find some beautiful cat portraits, but not as many as I thought I would.

NK: Probably because they're so independent and they don't have time to sit around.

XB: Well. And that might be just the reason. They just, they're not models.

NK: Xavier, thank you.

XB: Thank you. It's been a pleasure. And if you come to London, come and see the show.

CH: Xavier Bray is the exhibit curator of Portraits of Dogs: From Gainsborough to Hockney, which opens tonight at the Wallace Collection. We reached him in London.

[Music: funky]

Parliament Kerfuffle

CH: When a bunch of small children all want to leave a room at the same time, something is going to go wrong. They're too immature to leave in an orderly fashion. So, they all end up trying to squeeze through the door at once, shoulder to shoulder while yelling, "Stop it!" And "no, you stop it" and someone inevitably gets hurt. Now, to be elected to Australian Parliament, you must be an adult. And yet yesterday this happened.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: Lock the doors immediately. No. Lock the doors! [people shouting] Those members will need to return to the chamber immediately.

CH: In a vote called a "division", MPs get up and move to either side of the Speaker's chair, depending on whether they're voting aye or nay. Before a division the speaker calls for the doors to be locked, so there's no confusion in the count. Members can't just be coming in and out willey-nilley or even higgledy-piggledy, and they certainly can't get up and scramble for the door like a bunch of wild eyed children on a sugar high. But that is exactly what seven MPs did on Tuesday in Australian Parliament, injuring a parliamentary attendance arm in the process. They just didn't want to do the vote. So, today the Speaker scolded them like a disappointed teacher. I guess it makes sense that all the MPs apologized like sulky children. Here are a few examples.

SOUNDCLIP

MP ONE: Speaker, I left the House, as you were saying, close, close the doors and apologize for my conduct.

MP TWO: Mr. Speaker, I unreservedly apologize to the House and yourself.

MP THREE: Mr. Speaker, I too unreservedly apologize to the House.

MP FOUR: I apologize to the House and the Speaker for seeking to leave after the Speaker had ordered that the doors be closed. I deeply regret and apologize for any impact caused to a staff member involved.

CH: I could really feel the regret, real "apologizing to your parents while glaring at your little brother for telling on you" energy there and just generally a shameful display by those MPs. Not only did they ignore the rules, they ignored them clumsily, and they clearly hadn't planned their escape well at all. Which is just embarrassing because every politician should have an exit strategy.

[Music: drums and piano]

Part 2: Mexico Migrant Centre Fire, Starbucks CEO Testimony, Sacramento Kings Drought, Summer McIntosh

Mexico Migrant Centre Fire

Guest: Rosalio Sosa

CH: First there was sadness. Now there's anger. 38 people are dead after a fire at a migrant detention centre in Mexico's Ciudad Juarez on Monday night. According to officials, migrants set the fire in protest. But new security footage is raising questions about the lack of response by facility staff. The video has been authenticated by Mexico's Interior Minister. It seems to show staff making no attempt to rescue the men as fire and smoke fill the cells. Rosalio Sosa is an El Paso pastor who runs the Migrant Shelter Network in Chihuahua, Mexico. We reached him outside of Ciudad Juarez.

NK: Rosalio, the video I've had a chance to see it, it is short, but it is quite disturbing. What did you think when you saw it?

ROSALIO SOSA: It's a reality what happened in that place. The people inside, they got desperate and they burned that mattress. And they started with one, but they chose to do more at the main and only entrance. So, outside it was two guards, that they run. They, instead of unlocking the door, they run.

NK: What did you think when you saw what the guards were doing and not doing?

RS: Well, they must open that door to save people. But instead of that, probably they got scared, and they got scared and they run.

NK: Prosecutors in Mexico say they are going to investigate any possible negligence. What does the official response signal to you? What does it say to you?

RS: It's always the same because they proceed with caution. But the fact is there. Reality is they don't do anything to save those guys.

NK: Did what happen surprise you?

RS: Not really, because unfortunately, our system in Mexico is corrupt, has been corrupt for decades, and still the same. And they tried to do better, but unfortunately, it is not enough.

NK: I know you're trying to visit with some of the people who survived. When will you be able to visit them?

RS: I'm going to be there tonight and offer anything to help, especially for the ones that are still alive. United States helped to transport them to Lubbock, Texas, it's a facility for the [inaudible] people. Of course, they pay for the whole expenses.

NK: What have you heard from people so far?

RS: Very disappointed, very angry here now, if it was chaos right now, it's a mess.

NK: If it was chaos, now it's a mess.

RS: Yeah, it's a mess, because they want justice.

NK: There have been protests now and vigils outside this detention centre where the fire happened. Pastor, who was there?

RS: Well families. Some of them, they were single men in there. But wives, and some of them stay outside. Plus, some relatives and people from the same country, plus the other ones from other countries. I mean, from, for justice.

NK: Just tell us why they want to go to the United States so badly.

RS: Because we all know that the United States, if you behave, you work and you do the right thing, you have a good life. Just the United States wanted us to do it in the right manner with the right protocol.

NK: What would you say to people who say at your shelters, Pastor, who want to go to the United States?

RS: We've got people that have been there for five, six, seven months. They, of course, are angry and desperation. But we talk to them and tell them that it is important to wait, to wait and ask and to ask for permission to enter with the protocol, accomplish with the law. And never in their lives are going to hide because they legal asking for asylum, asking for an opportunity so, that justice can hear their cases and if they qualify then, then they welcome.

NK: What kinds of things are they doing? You mentioned they're desperate.

RS: They like, the things that they did. The one at the bridge. I think this is the worst and we're praying that won't happen again.

NK: So, this is the Paso del Norte Bridge to El Paso that you're talking about. Can you describe for our listeners what happened there earlier this month?

RS: At the bridge on Facebook and all the net, somebody started with the rumours that the gates will be open for them to ask for asylum. And more than a thousand went to the bridge. And first of all, the Mexican law don't let them in. But they push them. And when they approach united line. The CBP and the and the law enforcement stopped them, and they were jumping and screaming and trying to enter the United States with force.

NK: It's a combination of hope and panic all at the same time.

RS: Yeah, it's all the same time. Frustration, anguish and desperate. Yeah, all that. All that. But, they know, they know that is not the way. There is no way that United States going to open their doors like that.

NK: Rosalio, thank you.

RS: Thank you. And please pray, pray for the border, because this not only happens to Juarez, but along the border. People desperate and people trying to do crazy things. But pray for us also to keep them safe.

NK: Rosalio, thank you.

RS: Thank you very much. God bless you.

CH: Rosalio Sosa is a pastor and the director of the Migrant Shelter Network in Chihuahua, Mexico. We reached him outside of Ciudad Juarez.

[Music: soft electric guitar]

Starbucks CEO Testimony

CH: It was a kind of coffee date, but it wasn't exactly friendly. Today, former Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz testified before a U.S. Senate committee responding to questions about the coffee chain's response to union organizing efforts. Mr. Schultz, who resigned from his post just last week, insisted that Starbucks had not broken the law. Nearly 100 charges have been filed with the National Labour Relations Board against Mr. Schultz for comments he made during meetings with union members across the United States. For the record, here is Howard Schultz facing questions from Democratic Senator Bernie Sanders.

SOUNDCLIP

BERNIE SANDERS: Do you understand that in America, workers have a fundamental right to join a union and collectively bargain to improve wages, benefits and working conditions?

HOWARD SCHULTZ: I understand, and we respect the right of every partner who wears a green apron, whether they choose to join a union or not.

BS: Are you aware the NLRB judges have ruled that Starbucks violated federal labour law over 100 times during the past 18 months, far more than any other corporation in America?

HS: Sir, Starbucks Coffee Company, unequivocally, let me set the tone for this very early on, has not broken the law.

BS: Okay. Are you aware that on March 1st, 2023, an administrative law judge found Starbucks guilty of, quote, "egregious and widespread misconduct" and quote, "widespread coercive behaviour" and showed, quote, "a general disregard for the employee's fundamental rights", end quote, in a union organizing campaign that started in Buffalo, New York, in 2021. Are you aware of that?

HS: I'm aware that those are allegations and Congress has created a process that we are following and we're confident that those allegations will be proven false.

BS: Were you ever informed of or involved in a decision to discipline a worker in any way who was part of a union organizing drive?

HS: I was not.

BS: Have you ever threatened, coerced or intimidated a worker for supporting a union?

HS: I've had conversations that could have been interpreted in a different way than I intended. That's up to the person who received the information that I spoke to them about.

BS: Were you informed of or involved in the decision to withhold benefits from Starbucks workers in unionized stores, including higher pay and faster sick time accrual?

HS: My understanding was under the law we did not have the unilateral right to provide those benefits to employees who were interested in joining a union.

BS: Am I hearing you say that you were involved in the decision to withhold benefits from Starbucks workers in unionized stores? Is that what I'm hearing?

HS: It was my understanding that we could not provide those benefits under the law.

BS: Will you commit to testifying in any trial where you personally are accused of breaking federal labour law, something that you have been accused of doing nearly a hundred times since 2021?

HS: Mr. Chairman, let me say under oath these are allegations and Starbucks has not broken the law.

CH: For the record, that was former Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz responding to questions from U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders at a Senate Health, Education, Labour and Pensions Committee hearing.

Sacramento Kings Drought

Guest: Denzel Joyce

[Music: Light the Beam by Young Zel]

CH: That's "Light the Beam" by rapper Young Zel, which has become a Sacramento Kings anthem. It's a nod to the NBA team's slogan, which refers to the ritual of shining a giant purple beam up into the sky after every Kings win, which can be seen from almost wherever you are in the city. But winning basketball games is a new phenomenon for the Kings. For the past 16 seasons, they have failed to make the playoffs. That's the longest drought in league history, but it's on the verge of coming to an end. The team hopes to officially clinch its spot tonight and light the beam again. Denzel Joyce, also known as Young Zel, is a Sacramento Kings superfan. We reached him earlier today in Sacramento, California.

NK: Young Zel, when I say light the beam, what images does that conjure up in your mind?

YOUNG ZEL: Um. The image I see a bunch of happiness. A bunch of fans screaming, looking towards the sky.

NK: For people who aren't from Sacramento. What has the team's success done?

YZ: It's done a lot. It's brought a lot of economic boost. Local bars, clubs is doing good and people are making a bunch of shirts with "beam team", "light the beam", it's has helped artists like myself, you know, other painters to do anything revolving around the beam. So, it's just helped out everybody locally.

NK: Yeah, it's a beacon in a lot of ways.

YZ: Yes, for sure, for sure

NK: When did you write the song?

YZ: I wrote the song in December, like towards the end of 2022, and then I recorded it like a week later and then put out the video about a month later.

NK: And what's been, what's the response been like?

YZ: Very good. Everybody loved it. It's been on, it's got a mention on New York Times, which was crazy to me. It's been on multiple news stations out here. I've done different news interviews and stuff and everybody's like it. It's getting like over 300 thousand views on Twitter. I think it's like at 15 thousand on YouTube right now. So, it's crazy.

NK: How did this become the team's motto or slogan?

YZ: From what I understand, the owner, they wanted something that can, you know, give us something for Kings fans, something that the city can take, be proud about and something when people know this separates us. You know, the beam represents Sacramento and it's something you know to highlight every time the team wins, you could be driving down the street. And if for some reason you don't know what the score was, if you look towards the sky, you see a purple beam. That means we won.

NK: You know, fans in Canada and certainly in Toronto know what it is like to try to keep the hope, Maple Leafs fans for those who love hockey and certainly the Raptors, you know, have that championship now. But you know, how have you stayed hopeful for all of these years?

YZ: You know, you just, one thing about people from Sacramento, this region, just northern California and California in general, we're proud people, you know, especially in Sacramento. We, we’re loyal. Will never, we don't jump ship, hop bandwagon on anything. And we love to champion anything that's going on in the city that's positive and that represents us. So, it was hard but easy at the same time. [chuckles]

NK: I hear you. How old were you the last time the Kings made the playoffs?

YZ: I want to say I was between about 14 or 15 years old, so. Yeah, and I'm 30 now, so. [laughter]

NK: It's been a while. Yeah.

YZ: Yeah.

NK: Have you ever thought about switching to another team?

YZ: No. Never, never, never even crossed my mind. I was like, I'm a, I'm a ride till the wheels fall off.

NK: What do you think, you know their chances are tonight? How you know, how confident are you that they can bring this home?

YZ: Oh, I'm confident. I think tonight is going to be the night, you know, Sacramento is going to go crazy. We got to celebrate. I think today's the day they're going to handle their business and get us hyped.

NK: How did the team get to this point? Like, what's the makeup of the team this time? What's happening that they're in this position as opposed to where they've been the last, you know, 15, 16 years?

YZ: I think it all starts, you know, with, of course, it's the players you know, we have between Fox and Sabonis being all stars and bringing in Monk and Huerter, Monk is Fox's best friend and Huerter's an amazing three point shooter but he's done so much more than just shooting threes. And [inaudible] and Murray, and it's just Harrison Barnes being the old vet but he's really not that old. But he has the most experience, you know, it's they're young, they're fun. You could tell they love playing with each other.

NK: I know we've got some time till the game still, but what's the energy and time like now?

YZ: Oh, it's exciting. You would think a championship game is about to be played right now. We are, we've been thirsty and foaming at the mouth for this so. Everybody's excited, the whole city, every time you go outside somebody's got purple on. So, this is exciting.

NK: Oh, it sounds like my kind of place. What happens if they do it tonight? What do you think, how are people going to react?

YZ: I don't know. I'm excited to see. I might be downtown with a speaker in front of Golden One Center holding it in the air or singing a song. So, I don't know, I'm excited to see. I know the streets will probably be packed and even on work nights. We're ready to party.

NK: Where are you going to watch the game?

YZ: Right, tonight I'll probably watch it from the comforts of my home. I'm probably watching from the comforts of my home. But as soon as it goes double zero, you'll probably see me downtown.

NK: You know, we mentioned your song. What is it like to hear it being played by fans like you, but you know, in their cars right across the city, at the games?

YZ: Yeah, it's surreal. It does it, every time I feel like I got to be pinched, every time. I'm so not used to this. I've been making music since I was seven years old. You know, like, rapping is a passion of mine. And so, just to see people listening to me and loving the song, liking it and I'm seeing the smiles on people's faces or somebody sees me, they're like, oh, Young Zel, I love your song. I like it, I don't even feel like they're talking to me. I'm like, are you sure you're talking about me, right? But it is great.

NK: Young Zel, thank you.

YZ: No problem.

CH: Denzel Joyce, also known as Young Zel, is a rapper and Sacramento Kings superfan. We reached him earlier today in Sacramento, California.

[Music: Light the Beam by Young Zel]

Summer McIntosh

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: [shouting] This is all Summer McIntosh in lane four!... World record! World record! absolutely incredible!

CH: It was an absolutely incredible moment last night when 16-year-old swimmer Summer McIntosh broke the world record in the women's 400 metre freestyle. And she did it at home in Toronto at the Pan Am Sports Centre during the Canadian National Swimming trials. On the pool deck afterwards, Ms. McIntosh spoke to the CBC.

SOUNDCLIP

SUMMER MCINTOSH: It was absolutely incredible. I'm not really an emotional person. A lot of people say, like all my friends after a race, but I just was hit with so much emotion and I'm still in complete disbelief that that's happening in pure euphoria right now. And I'm just so grateful for everyone that's helped me along the way. And for everyone that's cheering me on it literally means the world. I wouldn't be here. I won't be able to do that without them.

DEVIN HEROUX: This is surprising to me because you always say you keep it inside and I'm seeing this emotion. What is this representing for you right now?

SM: I think the reason I'm showing so much emotion is over the past few years, I just put in my life and so has my family and to become the best that I can be, at the sport that I love. And to achieve something like this that I dreamed of just a few years ago that I never thought was going to happen. And now that it did, it was very unexpected too, I didn't, I never thought I was going to break the 400 feet world record tonight. It was never even in my dreams. I was just going to go under 4 minutes again. So, the fact that I won 56 is just, oh, it just blows my mind.

DH: Your mum and dad were going crazy. That they were here to see that Summer, what does that mean?

SM: It means the world. I mean, I think that's why I started, that's when I started crying during my interview just to see them. And they've literally put in their entire, they put so much energy and work into what I'm able to do. And they are completely the reason why I'm here. And I also want to give a shout out to my sister because she honestly is the most important person in my life, and I love her so much. And it's so nice seeing her coming back from Florida.

DH: Your dad said she's in Florida, but she is still Canadian, and Canadians are going crazy right now, Summer. They love you. They support you. This is a big moment and they're with you. What do you say to Canada?

SM: Just thank you so much. I can always feel your support with me and to do it in the home crowd. At my second favourite pool in the world. It's not my favourite pool is just, there's nothing more special than what I just could have ever imagined.

CH: That was world record breaking swimmer Summer McIntosh, speaking with the CBC's Devin Heroux last night.

[Music: percussion and flute]

Part 3: N.L. Phone Scam Victim, Scotland Oldest Tartan, Jodi Picoult Book Ban, Vancouver Geese, N.L. Collector Obit, FOA: Stuck Boat

N.L. Phone Scam Victim

CH: She thought her son needed help. But it turns out Donna Letto was talking to a scammer with the help of A.I. voice changing technology. The Newfoundland woman says the caller sounded exactly like her son, so she sprang into action, withdrawing thousands of dollars to help with his fictional legal troubles. Police in St. John's say at least four other senior couples lost a combined 200 thousand dollars in similar scams in the last month. One person allegedly involved in the scam was arrested as he tried to leave the province. Donna Letto and her daughter, Heather Crane, told their story to the CBC's Mark Quinn. Here's part of that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

DONNA LETTO: I was very busy. I was just ready to leave the house when the phone rang, so I ran back to get the phone and I, I heard the voice and I thought it was my son. I said, you got a bit of a cold, don't you? Yeah, he said, I got a cold for the past couple of days, but he said it's nothing, it's not COVID. He said, I've been in an accident and I hit a woman that's pregnant and she's been sent to the hospital with multiple injuries. And he said, Mom and dad, I need your help. And I said, oh, then we got really taken in and said, my kids never asked us for any help before. And he said, here talk to my lawyer and he'll tell him what's happened. So, of course, we were talking to a man that was very professional in the way he was talking. And he told me, yes, he's being charged with hitting a pregnant woman who is injured and sent to the hospital.

MARK QUINN: And when you spoke with the person who was saying they were your son, was it convincing? Did it sound him?

DL: Very convincing. I mean, a little bit of a difference, just like he might have had a bit of a cold. And that's what I asked him. And he said, yeah, I've had a call for a couple of days, he said. I thought for sure it was our son.

MQ: People are amazed at this technology that's being used to fool people.

DL: Yes. Yes. Yeah, I'm devastated. Well, we both because like we are very cautious all the time and we never answer the phone calls and are never, you know, given any information over the phone at all. And but it happened and can happen anybody. But it's almost embarrassing that this has happened. But it can happen to anybody, I guess. And but I think it's the emotional part that got to us.

HEATHER CRANE: You would do anything for your children. So, they didn't even think twice about it, to be honest with you. Because when one of us ever called for help, they would always, you know, like anything, drop everything you're doing to go help your kids. So, they went off and got 98 hundred dollars. And sure enough, a couple of calls came throughout the day about, you know, what they had to do, where they had to go. And a young man came to the door to their house here. And as my father was on the phone speaking with the lawyer, this individual came to the door to collect the money that they were instructed to do.

CH: Phone scam victims Donna Letto and her daughter, Heather Crane, speaking to the CBC's Mark Quinn.

[Music: xylophone]

Scotland Oldest Tartan

Guest: Peter MacDonald

CH: How old would you say the oldest tartan is? 42, 342, 1089. Yeah. I also had no idea at all until today when we learned that a tartan discovered in a peat bog in Scotland may be over 500 years old, which would make it the oldest of its kind on record. Plus, which archivists say it provides an essential link between modern plaid patterns and medieval cloth. The tartan will go on display at the V&A Dundee Museum on April 1st, where it will undoubtedly provide greater insight into the Scottish social fabric. Peter MacDonald is the head of research and collections at the Scottish Tartan Authority. We reached him in Crieff, Scotland.

NK: Peter, how did this tartan, how did this little piece of fabric survive all these years?

PETER MACDONALD: It was buried in peat. So, peat is an aromatic environment, i.e. it prevents a mixture of oxygen and air, getting to fabrics, getting to leather, etc. So, it bit like sometimes you get bog burials because it was buried, and the oxygen couldn't get to it. It was preserved, so it was saturated and then lack of oxygen meant it didn't rot.

NK: So, when you finally got, I know it's been with you for quite some time, but when you finally get the test results back and find out how far back this fabric goes, what did you think?

PM: Yeah, once I picked me up off the floor. [chuckles] I had also, I'm weaver by background, a hand weaver so, and I've been working with that about 40 years. So, I had an inkling that it was older than, say, pre 1700, which is where roughly from about 1700 really, the 18th century is where most of the surviving old pieces of tartan dates to. And this was obviously to me, it was something earlier than that. How old I didn't know.

NK: What gave you that inkling?

PM: It was the structure of the cloth. It was quite loosely woven, and you could see it was hand spun, it was much looser, much more what I would describe as rustic in look and feel than surviving examples from the early part of the 18th century. Most of those pieces indeed would normally be associated with the gentry because they could afford more or better clothing, and that tends to survive. And this piece was much more rustic in its appearance and feel. So, I felt that it was actually pre 1700, but whether that was 1690 or 690, I had no idea. We explored the ideas of carbon-14 dating and I wasn't even sure it could be done. So, yes, it could, it took about 14 weeks to first of all remove all the peat staining which involved die offs of acid and alkali, tested it and then we got a date of approximately 1500 to 1600. So, the 16th century, which is just extraordinary.

NK: It's such an incredible and beautiful tradition, history and families and clans woven into these fabrics. You mentioned the size of the weave, the type of weave and what that suggests to you. But what colours would we see, when we look at this fabric?

PM: So, if you look at it now, and as I say, it's actually gingery brown colour overall because that's the, the staining of the piece has influenced it greatly. There are very definitive green stripes, quite a mass of green fine green stripes all over it, there are brown or black stripes which may or may not be dyed or maybe natural fleece. And then there are areas of very obviously darker squares which we think were red. So, we're looking at a tartan that was probably red and yellow or tan. We've seen over stripes of green and black or brown on it.

NK: Has it been connected to a particular clan?

PM: Yes and no, [chuckles] let's start with the no bit first, and that's because the concept of clan tartans is an early 19th century one, and before that people liked what they, wore what they liked, could afford and was available it's a combination of all of those things, and the better off would have always wanted better colours, better quality, etc. So, there would have been, it wouldn't have been directly associated with the clan, but the area that it was found in, was an area that was controlled by Clan Chisholm. It's a long, long [inaudible] it's about 30 miles long, and it was, it has always been a transitional route from the West Coast, from Kintail up towards Inverness in the Great Glen. So, whether it was someone who lived in the glen or had been passing through, we don't know. Which is why I would hesitate to even link it to a clan. And interestingly, some of the, hopefully the future research work will be to look at the wool and identify the type of fleece. So therefore, the type of sheep that was used. And if we can do some isotope analysis, which will tell us actually where that wool was grown, which would be really, really interesting.

NK: So, maybe we'll have more conversations in the future.

PM: Yeah, no, no, absolutely. I think that this is a story that has much more to tell us. And as I say, it's a hugely important piece because it's so early, because it's, if you like, a transitional piece that talks to us about the development of tartan in Scotland. And also, it's a way of linking back and reaching into the past and making that connection with the later clan tartan. So, this is a really, really important piece. It's a piece of national importance of significance.

NK: Beyond the national significance for those from abroad, maybe from Canada, who come to visit the museum. What story do you hope it tells them?

PM: Well, it links very nicely with obviously, the Scots diaspora and a lot of the Highland Scots went into Canada during the 18th and into the 19th century. And only last year I was up in Prince Edward Island for the 200th anniversary of the MacDonald's, who went into P.E.I. and took with them a piece of tartan that have been worn in Culloden in 1746, taken there in 1772, and actually to go and see that if you like, it's almost full circle.

NK: Peter, thank you.

PM: My pleasure. My pleasure.

CH: Peter MacDonald is the head of research and collections at the Scottish Tartan Authority. We reached him in Crieff, Scotland.

[Music: guitar]

Jodi Picoult Book Ban

CH: Bestselling author Jodi Picoult has had her books banned before, but never 20 at once, until now. Martin County in Florida recently announced the removal of 92 books from its school shelves, 20 of which were written by Ms. Picoult. She says the books encourage kids to think for themselves and cover topics like the rise of fascism, gun rights, women's reproductive health rights, LGBTQ rights, racism and disability. Recently, Jodi Picoult appeared on ABC's "GMA3" to discuss the new restrictions and what she believes is driving book bans nationwide.

SOUNDCLIP

JODI PICOULT: It felt very ironic to have a book about the Holocaust banned. It's a story for people whose stories can't be told, and that's the reason that we need books like this on the shelf. But unfortunately, in Martin County, Florida, and in many places in Florida, one parent can decide to pull a book from a shelf without even giving a reason for that. And the one parent who wanted to ban all 20 of my books said on her form that she had not read the book, she admitted to that and she said that some of them were adult romance, which is really interesting because I don't write adult romance. And in fact, half of the books she pulled do not even have a single kiss in them. And the modus operandi is to get the books pulled off the shelves because the process for review is very muddy. And so, the books stay off the shelves away from kids until they actually manage to figure out a way to review them. It's okay for a parent to decide whether or not a book is appropriate for their own child, but it's not appropriate for that same parent to make the decision for your child. I think it is a small, very vocal group of people who are speaking out. The vast majority of folks in this country know that we should not be banning books, that we should not be restricting what kids are reading. You know, especially at a high school level. I think that unfortunately, the minority is much louder than the majority. And so, we all really need to take a stand. You can't listen to the politicians when they say, "these aren't bans, it's a hoax". I'm an author. 20 of my books were pulled off the shelf in one particular school district. That is not a hoax. That is a ban. And it's really important that right now we all speak out against this because we've seen historically what happens when we do not.

CH: That was bestselling author Jodi Picoult in an interview with ABC News on "GMA3".

[Music: upbeat guitar]

Vancouver Geese

Guest: Dana McDonald

CH: From a distance, they're regal. When you're up close or anywhere they've been hanging out for any length of time Canada geese are somewhat grosser. Said geese are, of course, a symbol of our country, a mainstay of parks and ponds everywhere. You've probably run into some on a walk at some point and you may also have run into their weird, slimy green poop. It's a real problem in parks around Vancouver, the population of geese there has exploded and therefore so, has the job of cleaning up after them. To manage populations the Vancouver Park Board has called on the public to help by reporting goose nests. More specifically, goose eggs. Dana McDonald is the environmental Stewardship Coordinator at the Vancouver Park Board.

NK: What kind of day is it out in Vancouver, Dana? Are the geese out and about?

DANA MCDONALD: The geese are out and about. It is a beautiful, sunny spring day.

NK: Oh, that's good. How many geese are we talking about? How many are in Vancouver right now?

DM: Well, we had a technical study done last year, and we know there are a minimum of 25 hundred geese in the city of Vancouver.

NK: That's certainly a lot of geese. And I'm sure with that comes a lot of problems for people in the parks. What kinds of situations are arising?

DM: Well, you know, geese are an iconic species and for some it's an experience with wildlife. But for many, including the Park Board and our operations staff, the large number of geese presents a lot of problems. So, they eat new young grass and newly seeded fields. They dig holes with their beaks around irrigation infrastructure, they can be aggressive during mating season right now. And one of the big impacts that we hear a lot about is their poop. So, often when you see geese, they are eating grass, and when they are eating grass, they will poop every 12 minutes.

NK: Every 12 minutes. [laughter] We've all had to navigate the grass and what they leave behind. But why are we seeing so many in Vancouver right now?

DM: Well, in Vancouver, we have what's called a resident goose population, and we are the only place that has this kind of population that doesn't migrate. So, in the sixties and seventies, geese were brought here from elsewhere. They don't migrate anymore because it's a mild climate here. And we, they're now called a resident goose population that stays here all year. So, their population is comfortable and keeps growing.

NK: So, tell me about the plan to try to get that population under control. It involves their eggs and a process called addling.

DM: That's right. So, this time of year, geese are nesting. We have trained wildlife technician staff who will take a previously frozen goose egg or set of goose eggs, warm it up and replace the live eggs in a nest with these treated eggs. And the goose, it all happens very quickly, the goose is minimally disturbed and then will sit back down on the treated eggs, the adult eggs. And then that clutch just won't hatch. And a clutch that doesn't hatch is something that happens in nature. So, the goose isn't especially bothered by that.

NK: And how do they respond generally? Is it hard to get in there and trying to swap them out?

DM: It can be difficult. And our staff go through lots of training so that they aren't disturbed, but also said that the goose isn't disturbed.

NK: So, it doesn't cause them distress or stress in general.

DM: It might briefly in the way that if they had like a predator or other disturbance in their nest and, you know, in a less urban area. But the actual act of switching out the eggs is very brief.

NK: What kind of results have you had so far?

DM: Well, in the last couple of years, we've managed to addle over 600 eggs. But if you can imagine that there are, you know, a thousand breeding pairs and each of them lays 5 to 8 eggs, we're only really scratching the surface of the number of eggs that could be addled. And each time, each year that we only scratch the surface, the population keeps growing. So, addling as a tool to reduce the rate of population growth and the more eggs that you can addle the slower your population will grow.

NK: Is it true that you're asking people in Vancouver to help you out?

DM: Yes, we spend a lot of our addling season out looking for nests and it's easiest for us to access nests on public property. But geese will nest anywhere that feels safe for them, and that includes rooftops and balconies of private buildings. So, any time a person sees a goose nest, we request that they let us know where that is so we can come in and addle the eggs and prevent those goslings from becoming breeding geese that poop everywhere.

NK: What else can you do, though, if addling is just scratching the surface, as you say so far?

DM: That's it. That's a great question. And we're exploring that through the development of a management plan right now that we're going to bring to our elected board in the next couple of months. So, those elected officials will be deciding what our next steps are in terms of managing the population.

NK: I don't know if this is a question you could answer, but people have mixed feelings about these national symbols. What's your relationship with geese like?

DM: Well, you know, personally, I... And like the park board, we take this position as well. But I believe that we have a responsibility to coexist with animals in urban environments. And that sometimes means making difficult decisions about population management, like closing trails or egg addling or other things, and making changes to the way that humans experience parks or other public spaces so that there is adequate space for animals.

NK: Do you like them or not? [laughter]

DM: Well, some days I do, and some days I don't. How's that?

NK: Fair, fair. Dana, thank you.

DM: You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

CH: Dana McDonald is the environmental stewardship coordinator at the Vancouver Park Board. We reached her in Vancouver, British Columbia.

[Music: piano]

N.L. Collector Obit

CH: The Governor of Georgetown has passed away in Saint John's, Newfoundland and Labrador. He was not officially a governor, but Wayne Skinner was a well known and loved figure in the city who pushed around an aluminium shopping cart he filled with recyclable cans and bottles. He died last week at the age of 66. Those who knew him remember him for his warm personality and his unwavering commitment to his work. The St. John's Morning Show put together a tribute to Mr. Skinner for their program this morning. They went down to the recycling depot Wayne used to frequent. Here's what some of the people there had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

RESIDENT ONE: Wayne is a very respectful, reliable. He's a hard working family man. I got to give him that. You seen that guy going? He got energy and he stuck with it every day, whether it's snowstorm or whatever. As long as the depot is open. He had it going. He did. He didn't care what kind of weather [inaudible] brought he still kept going. He did. He spread a lot of cheer.

RESIDENT TWO: I lost a good friend. So, that's why I looked out, [inaudible], passed away from it.

RESIDENT THREE: He's very good, man. And he's very funny, man. We miss him, you know. We miss him. He's very good, man. We still remember him. And one good thing you know.

[bottles clashing]

DANIEL: I'm Daniel Wiffen. I'm the lead hand at the Ever Green [inaudible] Depos.

REPORTER: So, how loyal a customer was he?

DANIEL: Oh, I say he's pretty loyal, like I say, like he was there every day. Like, the only time he didn't show up was when it was really bad weather. Like, snowstorm or immensely rainy. So, he was there almost every day.

REPORTER: But can you give me a sense of, you know, the kind of loads he would bring in here on a daily basis?

DANIEL: Yeah, no. That's, it would depend. Like before COVID he would bring in quite a bit, like I say, 50 bags a day at least. And that's what he would bring himself. Because he had a bunch of people loyal to him by customer, he had his own customers. They would bring him stuff while he was there. They knew he was going to be there, so they would bring him stuff. So, he had probably more.

REPORTER: What was it about, Wayne, you know, that, you know, people were drawn to him like that?

DANIEL: Definitely his friendliness, like he was always like, smiling. Every time I would see him say, Hi, Danielle. Hi, Danny. I'm like hi Wayne! I would say it was definitely is friendliness. Like there was always a smile on his face and sometimes he would bring me like a little treat just because he was, I didn't ask for it. He was just giving me a little treat just because he had them on his person, right?

REPORTER: Danny, do you know how he got that nickname? The governor?

DANIEL: No. I asked him about it. Like I said. Why do they call you the governor? He just said, people just call me that, like he, I don't think he knows himself. He would just start calling him the governor because I guess he was seen quite a lot. That was the only thing he got out of it. Like no one even, I don't think he was sure himself.

REPORTER: I guess he was a prominent sight in Georgetown.

DANIEL: Yeah, because that's where his first area was, Georgetown. He was always seen around Georgetown recycling. Right. He'll be missed. Greatly missed.

CH: Residents of St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador paying tribute to Wayne Skinner, who was known as the Governor of Georgetown.

FOA: Stuck Boat

CH: One day my grandchildren will look up at me with eager, curious faces and say, Grandpapa, Yes, they will call me Grandpapa. Grandpapa, why did the whole world laugh when a huge ship got stuck in a canal and disrupted the global supply chain? And I will chuckle in my wise, twinkly eyed way and tell them, Well, kids, life was terrible. So, it helped us to know that someone had messed up in such a gigantic and glorious way, someone who was not us, but who was also, in a way, all of us, but mostly was not us. Also, we thought nothing more could go wrong, and yet it did. We found that hilarious. By then they will have lost interest and wandered off. Probably to eat some candy shipped with ease through that very canal. My made up grandchildren will have no respect for history. Anyway, yes, I am talking about the Ever Given the massive container ship that got stuck in the Suez Canal what seems like a lifetime ago but was actually just two years back. Oh, the memes we had, how we laughed until we cried in our pandemic pajamas when a tugboat finally freed the ship. Two years ago today, the crew cheered.

SOUNDCLIP

crew cheering.

CH: And we called up Sal Mercogliano, a former merchant mariner, and a maritime historian. Here he is speaking with guest host Peter Armstrong.

SOUNDCLIP

PETER ARMSTRONG: Was it a huge sigh of relief when you saw the MV Ever Given finally get unstuck this morning?

SAL MERCOGLIANO: Oh, it was a fantastic sigh of relief. The fact that global transportation will not be thrown into a larger disorder than it already is a huge relief. And it's an amazing feat, I have to tell you, by the salvage company and the crews of the tugs, the Egyptians. Just an amazing, unbelievable. I talked to a Master Salvor just a few days ago who predicted this could go on for weeks based on the size and scope of that vessel.

PA: Right. And I mean, I think as much as a third of the ship had actually run aground. It looked a lot more complicated than it did kind of from the outside. Didn't it?

SAL MERCOGLIANO: It was extremely complicated. When I talk about salvaging a vessel. You almost have to think about it like a person in a car accident. You have to first stabilize the vehicle, then you have to stabilize the patient and then you have to remove the vehicle to get the patient out. In this case, the patient was the ship. And then you had all these obstructions, the dirt, it kicked up the hazards all around it. And what they basically wound up doing was just yanking the ship right out of the mud.

CH: What is it about this story that you think I mean, I saw you tweeted today, "THAT'S IT" in all caps. And, you know, the memes are everywhere on this story. What is it about this blockage that has so captivated so many people around the world?

SAL MERCOGLIANO: I think, you know, one of the things that that bother us the most is when something happens that disrupts our lives that we have no control over. And that's an example of that right here. We are so dependent on the global maritime chain and infrastructure, yet we know almost nothing about it. We don't see it on a common daily occurrence. Yet when it happens, all of a sudden, we find out goods may be shorted, prices may go up. And I think it has a lot to do with the fact that we experienced that just last year with COVID, when all of a sudden there were shortage of paper towels and toilet paper. And again, it's not that we were short of paper towels or toilet paper. We just didn't have them with us. And when you need those, you need them, you know right then.

PA: Will the Ever Given captain and crew ever live this down, or is this a sea story that's going to stick to them for the rest of their lives?

SAL MERCOGLIANO: Well, the crew will be able to live it down. The captain, you never know. Captain is ultimately responsible for the vessel. You know, commanding a vessel like this is a pride. It's, you know, you don't put these vessels in the hands of just anybody. And so, there's going to be a lot of finger pointing. And unfortunately, the Masters tend to get the blame for everything when it comes to this, especially when they start trying to figure out who's going to pay for this.

PA: Well, we're going to miss the memes. I really appreciate you sharing with us today.

SAL MERCOGLIANO: Yeah, it was great talking to you.

CH: Maritime historian Sal Mercogliano speaking with guest host Peter Armstrong. Two years ago today.

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March 29, 2023 Episode Transcript