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The AIH Transcript for March 28, 2023

Prologue

NIL KOKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight,

NK: Checks and imbalances. The Trudeau government releases its latest budget. Associate Finance Minister Randy Boissonnault and Conservative finance critic Jasraj Singh Hallan. Join us tonight.

CH: The silencing treatment. An Afghan education activist spoke out publicly and repeatedly after the Taliban banned girls from attending school. Now he's been taken away at gunpoint in Kabul.

NK: Call and response. Last night, the mother of a teenager killed in a Toronto subway station urged leaders to act quickly to prevent another tragedy. We'll hear how the city councillor in charge of the transit system responded.

CH: Smoke and mirrors. The state of Minnesota has taken JUUL to court. The state's attorney general says his team will prove the e-cigarette maker hooked a generation of youth on their products.

NK: From war zone to disaster zone. They've only just arrived in the U.S., but a group of Ukrainian refugees has already dropped everything to drive to Mississippi to help victims of the deadly tornadoes.

CH: And eating their greens. Utah wildlife experts stage a daring plan to relocate a herd of elk living on a golf course. But a week after being guided to their new home, dozens have returned to link up on the links. As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that guesses they're playing herd to get.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Budget: Liberal/Conservative, Afghanistan Girls Ed Arrest, Mississippi Ukrainians, Elk Herd

Budget: Liberal/Conservative

Guest: Randy Boissonnault

CH: Chrystia Freeland says her government's new budget continues a, quote, "proud tradition of fiscal responsibility", unquote. Today, Canada's finance minister promised new money to help Canadians with their groceries and to help Canadian businesses compete in a greener economy. But Minister Freeland says we're also looking at a 40-billion-dollar deficit that's up nearly 10 billion since her update just last fall. Conservative Opposition leader Pierre Poilievre is promising that his party will vote against the budget. Randy Boissonnault is Canada's associate finance minister. We reached him in Ottawa.

NK: Minister Boissonnault, this budget is revealing a deeper than expected and prolonged deficit. What should that signal to Canadians?

RANDY BOISSONNAULT: Well, I think the, Nil it's great to be back on the show, and I think the three things coming out of this budget are helping Canadians feeling the pinch of inflation, making sure that Canadians have access to the dental care they need, and then making sure that we have good jobs by powering the economy of the future. And I think most Canadians will be aware of the turbulence in the global economy. But if you take a look at the Canadian economy right now, we've got some strong fundamentals. We've got the lowest deficit in the G7, 830,000 more jobs created since the beginning of the pandemic. Record unemployment, record employment levels and the strongest GDP growth in the G7, based on last year. The budget does talk about a shallow recession. So, what does it mean? That means the first three quarters of the economy are going to see a downturn. And then in the last quarter of the year, we're going to see the economy really start growing again for about a 0.3 per cent GDP growth over the year. If you take a look at what's happening in the rest of the world, those are enviable numbers. And we also want to make sure, Nil, that we're tackling inflation. So, we're going to do our part to meet the pinch of inflation. The Bank of Canada will do their part.

NK: We'll talk more about inflation in just a moment. But just back to the deficit projection. It has gone up 10 billion dollars in just a matter of months. As you may have already heard, Conservative leader Pierre Poilievre is calling your budget today a, quote, "43 billion-dollar bonanza of debt, taxes and inflation". What is your response?

RB: My response is that we've got a budget here that is focussed on helping Canadians. On making our commitment to Canadians on health care. And I mean, Nil, the health care piece alone is 196 billion dollars over 10 years, of which 46 billion of that is new spending. The other piece, though, is that we've got this historic generational opportunity to lean into the green economy and to absolutely make sure that we have the good long term paying jobs of the future. And with what the United States is doing with the Inflation Reduction Act, which in many respects is a reaction to what we've been putting down on the table for the last seven years with over 120 billion invested in the environment. The time is now to seize this economy of the future. And that's why when you see announcements like Volkswagen in St. Thomas, a million EV batteries a year, the LNG plant in Kitimat. All of these elements are to prepare and to make sure that the economy of the future is right here, and that's good paying jobs...

NK: This is also a time though, Canadians, you know, in their own budget, they're being told and realizing, you know, we need to tighten our belts and tighten those budgets. So, is this not a time that the Canadian government should be showing more fiscal restraint?

RB: Well, if you take a look at the actual year over year, the debt to GDP ratio will continue to go down after next year, and it's less than 1 per cent of our GDP per year. And you can actually if you look in '27, '28, you'll see that we go from a budget deficit to a budget surplus. And when it comes to affordability measures to help Canadians that are really feeling the pinch of inflation. That's why the Canada grocery rebate is there. We've been asked and have responded with funding for our rural, northern and urban Indigenous housing. We're going to do some important things like crack down on junk fees, reduce small business credit card fees and reduce predatory lending rate. So, when you take a look at it all, it is going to provide those Canadians who need it the most with the relief they need. And we're taking this moment in time to invest in the economy of the future so, that we're not left behind other countries that are making those investments now.

NK: While they might appreciate, you know, the grocery help that you're giving them and the other things that you mentioned, that's a one time offer and then they still have to pay their mortgage that's getting higher, has been getting higher and higher. You know, if they own a property. Housing affordability is still a concern. This budget doesn't address those things.

RB: What it does address, Nil, is the homebuyers tax program. So, making sure that the 40 thousand dollars that we promised to Canadians in previous budgets get activated and look, we know that there are challenges facing Canadians and we know that we are able to help those Canadians who are struggling most with inflation. But the reality is, is we had two things to do in this budget make sure that we protect our triple-A credit rating and also make sure that we don't invest so much that we would stoke the, you know, fires of inflation. And that's why the affordability measures had to be really targeted. And the other investments that we're making are actually growing the economy, not contributing to inflation.

NK: Mr. Poilievre has also said your government's quote, "inflationary deficits are spiralling out of control and driving up interest rates on debt burdened Canadians". There is, you know, this sense from some that the Liberals are known for spending and spending and spending, not balancing a budget and putting the country in a fiscally dangerous spot.

RB: Well, if you actually, if you take a look at the budgetary balance, we had a budget last year that was 43 billion. This year it's 40 billion. And it keeps going down throughout the fiscal frame. And we're going to hold to our commitment to making sure that we don't have more than 1 per cent of GDP as our deficit. And if you compare that to the United States, they're at 5 per cent, Germany's at 3 per cent, Australia 1.9 per cent. And all of these countries are part of the triple-A credit rating. We've got a fiscal budget here prudent that makes sure we continue to invest in Canadians and in our economy and in health care because it's what Canadians asked us to do.

NK: So, again, with the deficit projection, you know, deepening, you know, jumping 10 billion dollars since the fall fiscal update. Are you saying to Canadians tonight, Minister Boissonnault, that they should not be worried?

RB: I think what I would say, what I will say to Canadians, Nil, is that we are here to support Canadians who need it the most, and we're going to continue to make strategic investments in growing our economy and making sure that the economy of the future starts to be built here right now. And the other thing I'll say is Canadians asked us to make sure that we would stabilize and help the health care sector to meet their needs. And that's exactly what we're doing with this budget, including13 billion dollars to provide Canadians making less than 90 thousand a year with dental care and many for whom it's the first time they'll get that dental care. And we think that's the right thing to do to support Canadians.

NK: You know, the NDP will say the only reason those things are in this budget is because they forced you to do that.

RB: That's for the NDP to say and we're the Liberal government that's putting in...

NK: Do you concede that it is, these are NDP initiatives?

RB: Absolutely not. It's look, it's part, these are part of the conversations we have with the supply and confidence agreement. But it makes sense, Nil, that in a country is as wealthy as Canada, that, you know, kids who are part of families that make 90 thousand dollars a year or less should be able to, you know, get their teeth cleaned. And so, we think this is the right thing to do and it's the right time to do it. And so, that's why we're proud to have this permanent program for dental care for Canadians.

NK: Minister Boissonnault, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

RB: Thank you.

CH: Randy Boissonnault is the associate finance minister. He's in Ottawa. And coming up in about half an hour, we'll hear from the conservative finance critic, Jasraj Singh Hallan.

[Music: guitar]

Afghanistan Girls Ed Arrest

Guest: Shaharzad Akbar

CH: Matiullah Wesa went to a mosque in Kabul to pray on Friday. He has not been seen since. His brother says gunmen were waiting outside the mosque where they arrested the prominent activist for girls’ education. His family is worried about his safety. Mr. Wesa has been working to promote children's education in Afghanistan for years now. Lately, he's drawn criticism from the Taliban for demanding girls’ schools be allowed to reopen. The Taliban has barred girls and women from attending school after grade six. Shaharzad Akbar knows Mr. Wesa well. She's the former chair of Afghanistan's Human Rights Commission. We reached her in Oxford, England.

NK: Shahzad, when you think about what's happened to Mr. Wesa, how concerned are you about him right now?

SHAHARZAD AKBAR: I'm extremely concerned about Mr. Wesa and not only him, but his family as well, since we have heard that now two of his brothers have also been taken away. Looking at what has happened with activists before. There are always allegations of mistreatment, even torture when they are held in custody and they are often forced to sign letters saying that they will not continue their activities. So, my heart and mind is in Afghanistan right now with Mr. Wesa's family and hoping, hoping for his quick release.

NK: Do you know anything at this point about why he was arrested, how he was taken into custody, and where he's being held right now?

SA: From all that we have heard, he was taken away on Monday, yesterday, while he was praying while he was in a mosque. He was taken away by the intelligence unit. The intelligence unit usually does this. They are after critics or campaigners, activists. It's not clear where exactly he's being held. And the Taliban spokesperson has made a comment about the fact that the nature of his activities were apparently not acceptable. And that's why he has been arrested and he's being investigated.

NK: What do you think they mean by that? What was Matiullah Wesa saying and doing that would make him a target in this way?

SA: Well, he was going village to village mostly in remote Afghanistan, in areas that hadn't been able to send their children to schools, boys or girls, because of the conflict all these years. He was trying to get community leaders to stand up for the rights of girls to education, for the rights of children to education. Getting books for children in very poor and remote areas. All of these things that would be appreciated by any government really, and certainly it's most appreciated by the communities. But this is a Taliban government, they are against learning. They're against education, particularly for women. And the fact that he had such popular support, I think was a clear indication that their policies are not embraced widely when it comes to girls’ education, and they don't like that.

NK: What did Matiullah say to you about what he was doing, the risks he was taking, you know, speaking out in terms of girls specifically and getting schools reopened for them?

SA: While we were always concerned his friends, and the wider human rights community, I think we are concerned about activists, fellow activists inside Afghanistan always and trying to not do something to put them at risk and reduce harm. But he always wanted his activities to be amplified because he strongly believed in the fact that majority of Afghans agree with him on girls’ access to education. And he was, he strongly believes in this. He wants to continue doing this work, give him a sense of purpose and meaning. He has been doing it for a very long time. Even war, when war was going on. And so, he continued, undeterred. My sense was that he would continue for as long as he can.

NK: Why did he believe so strongly in what so many of us take for granted around the world, the basic ability to get an education?

SA: I think he saw it firsthand when he engaged with the communities. He saw the thirst of young people, children, for books, for learning, for education, that Afghan children were deprived of it for so long, either because of conflict or now the cause, because of Taliban bans. It gave him great pain, as it does gave all of us. But he went ahead and did something with that pain. He tried to change the situation, travelling long distances under difficult conditions, mostly as a volunteer with a group of volunteers and the response that he saw from the communities really, I think, impression the children themselves as well.

NK: You've called him a hero.

SA: Yes, he is a hero to me. There are very few heroes, I think, in Afghanistan, particularly when you look at the situation with the decades of conflict. Many people who are called heroes are seen as, are unfortunately heroes of war. But for me, he is a real hero because he works for education, he works for peace. He is willing to risk his life to educate girls.

NK: You mentioned the pain that anyone who thinks of these women and girls in Afghanistan feels and I think you're speaking about yourself at the same time. How do you try to deal with the reality that these women and girls, young women and girls cannot get an education? What is it going to mean long term for the young people of Afghanistan?

SA: It's devastating for our country. Every day, not every day, almost every waking hour, I think about the young girls and the fact that they are deprived of going to school. And I remember my family left Afghanistan to Pakistan because of our education, because we are girls, sisters, and it was for us unimaginable that we live, would live for years and years without access to schools, to education. It was like if you read, you know, books, learning, the excitement of learning, the planning for the future, becoming someone in your society, contributing. And all those dreams are being stolen away from millions of Afghan girls. And I can't see where half of the population is deprived of education. What's the future? Extreme poverty, conflict. These will have implications for generations to come, unfortunately. So, every day is already too late and it's extremely painful.

NK: The United Nations, as you may have heard, is calling on the Taliban to explain what has happened to Mr. Wesa. The European Union is demanding his release. What do you expect will happen to him now?

SA: Oh, I really hope. With my whole heart, the global pressure and local pressure will move Taliban, will persuade Taliban to release him unconditionally and quickly. But I am very uncertain. I am very concerned. I'm concerned about what's now happening to his brothers, the rest of his family, what's happening to him in detention. You know, I'm hoping that all our efforts will not be counterproductive, that it will not make it more complicated for him. And that actually will see him released and not only released, but able to continue his work, because I do worry that they have now made his work almost impossible with this arrest.

NK: Shaharzad, thank you.

SA: Thank you, Nil.

CH: Shaharzad Akbar is the former chair of Afghanistan's Independent Human Rights Commission. She's now with the rights organization Rawadari. She's in Oxford, England.

[Music: electric guitar]

Mississippi Ukrainians

Guest: Sofiia Rudenko

CH: They've only just escaped terrible destruction at home. And right now, a group of Ukrainians are on their way to help disaster victims in their adopted country. A convoy from Minnesota is headed to Mississippi to deliver supplies to towns hit by the tornadoes on the weekend. Seven Ukrainian refugees are taking part. Sofiia Rudenko is one of them. We reached her on the highway near Miner, Missouri.

NK: Sofiia, I know you are on the road right now. How are, how are you and the other folks in the convoy feeling right now?

SOFIIA RUDENKO: Yeah. Yeah. We've been driving since yesterday, and it's really exciting. We don't feel tired. We feel excited. And too willing to go and to start doing things.

NK: How do you hope to help people in Mississippi?

SR: We're hoping to stop somewhere close and get a truck and fill it with water. As the local non-profit said, it was main request to bring water and then once we have water. We can ask locals about the needs and try to figure out how they can be helpful and what we can do for them.

NK: You and the other folks in this group are refugees from Ukraine. You only just arrived in the United States recently, so, you're dealing with a lot on your own. Why did you want to take this on? Why did you want to help the tornado victims?

SR: Oh, wow. I don't know how to explain that because for me, it's natural to help others and especially here that a lot of people help me to establish in America. And I'm thankful as well as the rest of my group Ukrainians that are here. All of us do have a job. And for now, it's our free time and we can go out and do something great for this world and we are very proud that we can do that, honestly.

NK: How long have you been in the U.S. now?

SR: For three months and five days.

NK: That's such a short amount of time. How have people been towards you?

SR: I guess most of Ukrainians that there with me they have been here for two months. I'm the one who came a little bit earlier, so I've been for three. And so, it's all brand new for us, brand new society and brand new rules and to relearn something new every single day. And we hope that we can bring something from our culture some good attitude, that we want to help and to take our part in living in this country because we are extremely happy and lucky to be there and to be able to build our lives from scratch.

NK: What is it like being on the road in the U.S. on this road trip?

SR: Oh, I love it. I love it. And I love seeing the nature and I love the weather. It's sunny.

NK: Is it? It sounds like it's a way of saying thank you to the new friends you've made in the United States. But is it a way of keeping busy as well when you know so much is still happening back home?

SR: Honestly, for me, it was a little bit difficult to combine working and going there because even here I keep working online, like chatting with Ukrainians in Minneapolis onsite and trying to figure out so, I yeah, all of us are busy because we have a job. Some of our people have two jobs. So, this was a priority to go and help because we made it possible as we have such an opportunity because it's time and because it's a desire and we can combine... And now on Friday, everyone is going to be back to work because most people in my group, they work in Home Depot. So, their shift is like Friday, Saturday and Sunday. And we are hoping to get back on Thursday night. And so, everyone will start working on Friday then.

NK: How, what was the moment you decided you needed to help?

SR: I don't really remember that moment. I remember the moment when I started asking the others if they would like to go with us.

NK: Well, were you watching the coverage of the tornado? What made you want to help?

SR: I kind of understand what it's like. I came from not the same, but also from difficult situation. My country is undergoing attacks and war is going on every single day. And while I live here, I can do something for Ukrainians that arrive, and I can do something for Americans and everybody that needs it. It's the biggest pleasure to make it happen, to be able to help. Because I don't want only to take help, I want to be helpful, too, because I do believe in balance in this world. That you need not only to take but also to defend as much as you can, because it's important for your personal goals.

NK: What will you say to people in Mississippi when you get there?

SR: It's impossible to prepare. So, I will just see whatever I can say to make it better and to have some presents straight from Ukraine. Some Ukrainians candies and stickers and Ukrainian scarves. So, I guess I will give this to them in order to support and I hope it will help.

NK: Sofiia, thank you very much.

SR: Thank you so much.

CH: Sofiia Rudenko is part of a group of Ukrainian refugees to the United States who are on their way from Minnesota to Mississippi to help victims of the tornadoes that hit the state on the weekend. We reached her on the highway near Miner, Missouri.

[Music: percussion]

Elk Herd

CH: They are staging a major comeback, which is a drag for the people who staged their major go- away. This winter a herd of about a hundred elk made their home in a huge pasture in Salt Lake City, Utah, just a vast expanse of sweeping vistas and nibble-able grasses. As hammertime24, wrote online, "this place is a gem". Although hammertime24 is not an elk, but a human and a golfer, and the huge pasture is technically a golf course. I'm sure hammertime24 was upset about the elk eating the fairways. But the real problem is that the country club is too close to a busy road. The elks' periodic attempts to cross that road stopped traffic temporarily and unfortunately stopped seven of the elks permanently. So, officials with the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources hatched a plan. On March 19th, they would close a nearby highway. They would form a human chain and slowly herd the herd along the highway, up into the mountains. And then they would use a helicopter for a last push to drive the elk into their safe new home, a canyon meadow. For it to work, everything had to go perfectly, and everything did. But a few things did come back to haunt them. 40 things so far. 40 elk, which, after just a week have returned to the delicious forbidden golf course. I guess they just like carefully manicured golf course grass more than gross wild canyon grass. And after all that effort failed, the Wildlife Division is not sure what to do next. It just has no comeback for the comeback.

[Music: funky]

Part 2: Budget: Conservative, TTC Safety Burnside, U.S. Vape Trial, Bassmaster Winner

Budget: Conservative

Guest: Jasraj Singh Hallan

CH: Pierre Poilievre has seen the new Liberal budget and he has seen more than enough. The Conservative leader wasted no time today in announcing that his party would vote against the Government's economic plans. Mr. Poilievre pointed to the 10-billion-dollar spike in the Government's deficit projections. But as we heard earlier in the show, the Liberals insist they're making prudent investments to help Canadians fight inflation and to help Canadian businesses compete. That is not how Jasraj Singh Hallan sees it. He's the conservative finance critic. We reached him in Ottawa.

NK: Jasraj Singh Hallan. Randy Boissonnault says this budget is about helping Canadians through these rough global economic times. How would you describe the government's plans that you saw today?

JASRAJ SINGH HALLAN: Look, this NDP Liberal budget is a full on frontal attack on the workers of this great country. The...

NK: How so?

JSH: They had three demands in our asks for this budget. We said that they wanted the we needed them to bring home more powerful paycheques by reducing inflationary deficits and by reducing taxes. They failed to do that. We said we wanted them to bring home lower prices, which means getting rid of the job, killing carbon tax and other inflationary taxes. They refused to do that. We wanted to see in this budget for them to bring home homes that young people and others could afford. And nowhere in this budget did we see any of that. This budget blew through the fiscal anchor that the finance minister said that she would use. And they blew right through all the spending that the that they were not supposed to do. She literally was quoted saying that she didn't want to add to the inflationary fire or pour more fuel on to it. Well, with this budget, they literally poured the jerrycan of inflationary fuel on that fire.

NK: Minister Boissonnault said to us in our interview this evening, quote, "confident countries invest in themselves". We know in the U.S.; the Biden administration is investing heavily in a green economy. So, can the Canadian government really afford to not follow suit? Can it afford to sit on its hands?

JSH: Well, this is eight years of Justin Trudeau sitting on his hands. We're now having to pay companies in the tens of billions of dollars to come to Canada. What needed to happen was that we needed to get the government gatekeepers out of the way so we could get good projects built in this country. Canada ranks 64th in permitting in this world, in the world. That means that we are very highly uncompetitive, which means that because of the uncertainty in government regulations, companies are not investing in Canada. Our tax structure is not right, which is also deterring investment coming into Canada as well as more jobs. So, many government gatekeepers, these are the same people that stop good projects, our mines to get built, our pipelines to get built and other structures that get built in order to get better Canadian and stronger paycheques for those people that work. It's eight years of failures to do that. Where now Canada is in a position that they're having to basically pay to play with higher, with bigger companies. And if you take Volkswagen as an example...

NK: The government would say that that is a win. And certainly, the people in the community that that plant is going to go in are celebrating that. But let me just say that your leader probably says he would reduce the pressure on Canadians by reducing taxes and reducing deficits at the same time. But what programs would be cut, sir, in a conservative government to pull that off?

JSH: Well, first of all, we'd cut all, cut out these high paid liberal insider consultants, which this year are going to take about 21 billion dollars away from taxpayers for something that the public service can do. We need to make sure that we're bringing home good Canadian projects, getting pipelines built, getting our homes built by getting the government gatekeepers out of the way so, that we can bring home a better economy here for our people. And then what we need to do is we need to get our product, like our natural resources out to the world. Not only will we be able to get good paying energy jobs here in Canada, we can replace dirty dictator oil and also help to reduce emissions around the world with clean, Canadian responsible, low energy, low carbon energy that will help our economy, that will help our people with stronger paycheques.

NK: What would you cut, sir?

JSH: As I said, we would cut out the, we would cut this job killing carbon tax. That's what we would do. This carbon tax has not contributed to helping emissions get lowered. And it also hasn't helped to meet a single emission reduction target.

NK: Would that be enough? Would that be enough to balance the books though?

JSH: We would also cut up to 21 billion dollars in high paid consultants. That's 21 billion dollars back into the... Look coming from the small business world, you also have to look at where your revenues are coming from. You need to be able to increase those. And under a Poilievre government, we will make sure that we're supporting our natural resources and we will, the energy producers in this country, the food producers in this country, our manufacturers. We need to support them and their workers in order to make sure we're bringing home powerful paycheques and we're bringing more prices into this country, and that we will also cut government gatekeepers so, we can get more built in this country.

NK: And just finally, sir, before we let you go, I'm so sorry we're so tight on time and I know you have another interview, but what would you say to Canadians who are already in tough economic times and they don't want to hear about government cuts. They want to hear that there are more programs like what the Liberals announced and breaks for their grocery bills and investments in housing.

JSH: Well, they can be rest assured, under a Poilievre government. We will bring those things home. We will make sure that their power, their paycheques are more powerful, they go a lot further, we will reduce taxes. We will cut the job killing carbon tax. We will bring down the deficit spending by this NDP, Liberal government that's driven up the cost of everything. And by getting rid of the carbon tax that hasn't done anything for the environment, we will reduce the cost of gas, groceries and home heating. This is what Canadians are looking for today because of these out of control spending and this carbon tax. We have seniors who are turning down the heat in their home wearing blankets because they have to choose between...

NK: But isn't that, isn't the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the global economic situation, inflation as we're seeing around the world, aren't those what are contributing to those things immediately right now?

JSH: Absolutely not. You just have to look at what the bank of governor, the governor of the Bank of Canada today and previous ones had to say. They said that the inflation we're seeing today is a home-grown issue. They also are the same people that said, if we got rid of the carbon tax, we did bring down inflation. These are the same people that also said that we need to support an energy sector because that is also helping contribute to get our books into balance. So, we need to follow through with those things so we can, end of the day, help Canadians who are struggling today because of this NDP, Liberal government, who has put many, many generations of debt on their backs.

NK: Jasraj Singh Hallan, thank you very much for your time.

JSH: Thank you.

CH: Jasraj Singh Hallan is the conservative finance critic. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music: techno]

CH: Now we have to issue a correction last night for a story about confusion around the irregular border crossing between the United States and Canada at Roxham Road. Nil spoke with Wendy Ayotte with the group Bridges Not Borders. Again, that is Bridges not Borders and not the other way around, which is how we said it. Our apologies for the mistake.

[Music: jazz]

TTC Safety Burnside

CH: Last night on the show, we heard a powerful and painful call for change. Andrea Magalhaes's son, Gabriel, was stabbed to death by a stranger in a Toronto subway station in an unprovoked attack on Saturday night. He was 16 years old. The 22-year-old suspect who has been charged with first degree murder has no fixed address. Ms. Magalhaes begged political leaders to do more to fix the social safety net in Toronto to help stem the violence on the transit system so, other mothers don't end up grieving for their children the way she is now. This morning, CBC Toronto interviewed one of those leaders. Jon Burnside is the city councillor who heads the TTC, the Toronto Transit Commission. Here's part of that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

JILL DEMPSEY: Nil Köksal and As It Happens, spoke with the mother of the 16-year-old boy who died, Gabriel Magalhaes. Here's what she wanted city officials like yourself to hear.

ANDREA MAGALHAES: "I hope they can hear the pain in my voice. I hope they can realize that we're talking about human beings, we're talking about lives. In this case, we're talking about a young life. That was cut so short. When you're making decisions, when you think about whether there is the money. That's the bottom line, right. We're talking about lives here and lives that could be saved. So please imagine if your child could be murdered on the subway, on the street. And think do the public services deserve funding or not. Should we make changes, or can we just let this go on and snowball into a city that nobody could be safe in?".

JD: Jon, what do you say to Andrea Magalhaes?

JON BURNSIDE: Well, you know, hearing that is heartbreaking. And I don't use that term lightly. Obviously, there's nothing I can say, or anyone can say to address her pain. But what I will promise to do, and I will do is to work a lot harder and a lot better and a lot smarter and demand that other people come to the table. Because to solve these issues, or at least partially solve these issues, is it's going to take everyone taking responsibility, not passing the buck and working together.

JD: How do you restore people's confidence in this system? Because I would suggest at this point, they don't have it.

JB: And I would agree. I would agree with you with that statement. So, police presence, absolutely every interview you hear, police presence makes people feel safer. And so, that's one of the options. But once again, I believe it's addressing the sense of disorder that's going on in certain subway stations, going into the station there's open drug use that does not make the average person feel safe. So, we can't accept that. We also have to say now that the weather is warmer, this TTC can't be used as a shelter system. That's not what the TTC does. We need our city people and other levels of government to find the space, indoor space for people so that they don't need to resort to the TTC for that purpose. And the last point I'd like to make is there's a lot of programming, we pay a lot of money to outside agencies as well as our own people with day programming to give homeless people and other people in crisis a sense of community, give them direction. And I want to see how effective those programs are, have we got them back to pre-COVID levels? Because we can do more.

CH: That was Toronto City Councillor Jon Burnside, chair of the city's transit commission, speaking to Jill Dempsey this morning on CBC Toronto. We requested an interview with Toronto's acting mayor, Jennifer McKelvie, but she was not available. Ontario's Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, Steven Clark, also declined our request for an interview.

[Music: calm electro]

U.S. Vape Trial

Guest: Keith Ellison

CH: JUUL has faced thousands of lawsuits. But now, for the first time, a case against the e-cigarette maker over youth vaping is going to trial. Dozens of U.S. states and territories have already settled with JUUL, but Minnesota has not. And the state's trial against the company and its former investor Altria, which owns Marlboro, started this week. Keith Ellison is the attorney general of Minnesota. We spoke to him today before he gave an opening statement to the court.

NK: Attorney General Ellison, you are set to give an opening statement in court today. What is the main point you want to get across and you want jurors to take away from what you say?

KEITH ELLISON: That JUUL and Altria combined to hook kids on their product and addict, a whole new generation. They did it through slick advertising. They did it through flavours, they did it through product placement and product design, and they did it through a very aggressive marketing campaign. But at the end of the day, JUUL and Altria hooked a generation of kids on e-cigarettes and it has caused them addiction and harm and caused the state to suffer damages in the form of health issues, the need to have a public education campaign to rebut what they're doing and a range of things, of harms they caused.

NK: The state is arguing JUUL created, you know, that there was consumer fraud at play here, unjust enrichment conspiracy, but also public nuisance, which is an approach specifically used against opioid manufacturers in past cases. How will you make that case?

KE: Well, they created an attractive nuisance which caused an ongoing and continuing harm. That harm is yet to be abated. In fact, they accelerated the use of e-cigarettes, you know, and got people addicted to nicotine and actually in a more slick in a underhanded way than even cigarettes did, at least when you smoke a cigarette, you draw it down, you will cough because it's sort of harsh. With this they created a process that you can breathe really, really deep and inhale and get that nicotine to your lungs and then to your brain.

NK: So, are you suggesting that it's even worse than traditional cigarettes?

KE: I'll put it like this. It has its own harms. It has its own substantial harms. And I say that because it's often represented as being something not as bad, something more benign. But it is, it has, it's not safe and it is dangerous, and it will addict you.

NK: Other states have settled. Why did you want to take this to court?

KE: Well, one, I think that the world needs to know what the real facts are. I think it's also true that they have not yet made an offer that's going to compensate us for the losses of the state.

NK: So, settling is still an option?

KE: If they make the right offer, yes, but they haven't.

NK: What would that number be? What would that offer look like?

KE: Well, you know, I will leave that to the lawyers negotiating that. But we think the damages are north of 100 million dollars.

NK: One of the experts, a legal expert I was reading about as they were talking about this case said this is also about making sure documents are not kept in secret from these companies, that they're seen in open court. Is that part of the reason for you to take this to the court?

KE: Certainly, is one of the things we think are important. You know, a lot of these times you, settlements will involve nondisclosure agreements. And no, that's not what we're looking for here. We want the world to know how dangerous big tobacco can be and how they will use some of the most slick and seductive ways to addict you to their product and to make you need to have nicotine. And it's certainly a health risk, certainly something that we have to protect the public from.

NK: JUUL and Altria, as you well know, Attorney General Ellison, have argued Minnesota didn't use the money it got in a big tobacco settlement back in the nineties to set up anti-smoking efforts and more education programs on that front. So, what do you see as Minnesota's role and responsibility for the rise in youth vaping?

KE: Well, it's not true, and when I hear things like that, it just seems to me that, you know, okay, so you create a risk and a hazard, an addictive substance, and then you blame us for not fighting you well enough. I mean, it definitely seems like a self-serving argument to me. And, you know, what I would say is that it's factually inaccurate. We were able to achieve some of the lowest youth smoking rates in our state's history and then came JUUL.

NK: I think they were suggesting that money was used to, you know, to help the state or build a stadium as well, a sports stadium. Is that not accurate?

KE: The money that the state got from the settlement went into the state's general fund, and it was appropriated by the state legislature. And so, that's how lawsuits work. Right. But much of the money, I mean, a substantial amount of money was put into youth smoking cessation and it was effective. And the money went down, and the smoking rates went down. So, what they're saying is extremely misleading, not unlike the way they marketed JUUL, by the way. You know, the fact is, is that by saying that we built stadiums with the money to stop smoking cessation isn't a right. By law, any money that the attorney general gets goes to the general fund and the state legislature appropriates general fund money.

NK: The Altria group is also part of the suit. Altria said, you know, its role in terms of JUUL's sales was minimal and that it's divested and it has, though, purchased a large share in another vaping company. So, why did you want to focus on these two groups and why do you think it will actually stop young people from picking up these devices in the future?

KE: Well, they have a high degree of culpability. I mean, they dropped 12.8 billion dollars into JUUL in order to help them be more effective in getting their vape pens into the hands of children. And were very, very much a part of a partnership to addict Minnesota kids.

NK: Attorney General Ellison, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

KE: Thank you.

CH: Keith Ellison is Minnesota's attorney general. We reached him earlier today in Minneapolis. The Associated Press reports that JUUL says Minnesota's insistence on going to trial has deprived citizens of settlement money to address the problem. In a statement, JUUL said, quote, "effective interventions to address underage use of all tobacco products in Minnesota, including vapour, depends not on headline driven trials, but on evidence based policies, programs and enforcement", unquote.

[Music: calm techno]

Bassmaster Winner

CH: Whatever you were doing on the weekend, Jeff Gustafson had bigger fish to fry. Although it was catch and release, so he didn't actually fry any of them. Mr. Gustafson, who is from Kenora, Ontario, won the Bassmaster Classic in Knoxville, Tennessee. A three day long fishing Face-Off featuring the most determined and dedicated anglers out there. And if the grand prize of three hundred thousand dollars U.S. wasn't enough, Mr. Gustafson has also earned himself some pretty significant bragging rights. He is the first and only Canadian to win the competition, and he did it by squeaking out a last minute win on a tough final day.

SOUNDCLIP

JEFF GUSTAFSON: It's incredible. It was an amazing weekend and I can't believe it happened. It was, you know, the first two days went really well. And then, you know, yesterday was a real struggle. So, it was, it was crazy! It ended well. And yeah, I'm a lucky, lucky guy.

STEPHANIE CRAM: For people who aren't familiar with your sport, how does the competition work?

JG: So, three day tournament and you got to bring in five bass each day. So, the first two days I actually had the biggest catch each day. There were 55 anglers in the field and yesterday I only caught two fish. It was, it was hard. So, it was like, I was just saying I went from like in the worst day of my life yesterday because I didn't think I was going to have enough to win it being the best day of my life.

SC: Yes. And as you said, Sunday was difficult. You were ahead of the competition with 5 pounds, 12 ounce lead at the beginning of Sunday. So, what made the last day so, so bad for you?

JG: Oh, I think it was just the combination of like fishing pressure and the weather. It was, it was dead calm, really bright. And they just, there was a lot, I could see a lot of the fish around my boat on my, you know, I've got all kinds of electronics on there. And so, I knew that there were fish around where, on my spots still, but they were just very hard to get to bite. And I mean, across the whole field, it was kind of just tough for everybody yesterday, thankfully.

SC: You're the first Canadian to win this with fishing such a popular sport in Canada. Why do you think it took so long for a Canadian to win?

JG: Well, it's just, it's the highest, it's the biggest tournament in the sport. And only around 50 anglers get to compete in it every year. So, there just hasn't been a lot of chances for Canadians to do it. But yeah, you know, this is just proof that dreams can come true. And, you know, I'm sure I won't be the last.

CH: That was Jeff Gustafson of Kenora, Ontario, winner of the Bassmaster bass fishing tournament. He spoke with Stephanie Cram this morning on "Information Radio" in Winnipeg.

[Music: funky]

Part 3: IOC Russia, Belarus Nukes, Vancouver SRO, China Bailout Loans, Ryan Party

IOC Russia

CH: They can compete. They just can't compete for their countries. Today, the International Olympic Committee released a set of guidelines that would allow Russian and Belarussian athletes to compete at international sports events once again. To be clear, teams from Russia and Belarus will not be considered. But individuals can compete as neutral athletes as long as they have no clear links to the military. The guidelines don't cover the 2024 Paris Olympics, and they've prompted angry reactions from Ukrainian politicians and athletes alike. But today, IOC president Thomas Bach defended the committee's approach and explained what caused them to reconsider the ban.

SOUNDCLIP

THOMAS BACH: We see that in a number of sports, tennis, cycling, handball, football, ice hockey. It's already working. You see athletes with a Russian or Belarusian passport participating in competitions. Why should what is possible in all these sports not be possible in swimming, table tennis, wrestling or any other sport? What is the difference? Secondly, there is the clear statement by two independent UN Special Rapporteurs on human rights. Just allow me to quote some of these remarks. "Also, we agree that this is an illegal war. The specific obligations of states continue to exist, and prohibition of direct discrimination is one of the most important values of the human rights system. We have to make sure that we do focus on states. I think it is absolutely perfect that the IOC and other areas as well have excluded the Russian Federation and Belarus. The issue is what happens with individuals. This is not a grey area of international law. For this reason, the blanket prohibition of Russian and Belarusian athletes and artists cannot continue. It is a flagrant violation of human rights. Anyone, anyone has the right not to be discriminated on the basis of their passport". End of quote.

CH: That was Thomas Bach, president of the International Olympic Committee, speaking today.

[Music: upbeat hand drums]

Belarus Nukes

Guest: Valery Kaveleuski

CH: If you were hoping Vladimir Putin would start trying to reduce international tensions. Bad news. Over the weekend, the Russian president announced plans to station tactical nuclear weapons in Belarus. Officials in Ukraine have called for immediate and urgent action from Western allies. And Belarusian opposition members around the world have denounced the move. NATO's says it's watching the situation closely. But some say that is not enough. Valery Kaveleuski is the representative for foreign affairs in Belarus and the deputy head in its United Transitional cabinet. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

NK: Valery, as we speak, Putin's plan is being set in motion. What do you make of what is unfolding?

VALERY KAVELEUSKI: Well, the first thing that comes to mind when you hear the words of Putin about a deployment of nuclear weapon in Belarus is that he says this in passing, as if this is his backyard, as if this is some of the provinces of the Russian Federation. But Belarus is a sovereign state, and this is completely unacceptable.

NK: But has the Belarussian government created an atmosphere where this is possible, do you think?

VK: Well, the problem with the Belarusian government that it is illegitimate. It's lost the mandate of people to act and speak on behalf of the Belarusian people in 2020. And since then it's survived only because of Russian support. This is because of interference of Russia internal affairs.

NK: This is not the first time Vladimir Putin has escalated the conversation in terms of nuclear weapons in this war, in Russia's invasion of Ukraine. How is this time different? Is it?

VK: This is correct. This is not the first time this issue is spoken about by Putin and Lukashenko. At the same time, those were words mostly. Now we see an actual action, and this is with deadline, with something that makes it a tangible threat. Previously, what we have seen is that Lukashenko and Putin spoke about this issue several times. Also, Putin and Lukashenko declared that Russia will pass through Belarus some of the capabilities, delivery capabilities for Air Force in Belarus also pass an Iskander missile system, that are capable of carrying nuclear warheads. But at the same time, there has never been a conversation about actual deployment of nuclear forces in Belarus without asking Belarusian people, without any regard for national security, without regard for international security and arms control. That's why we consider this a major development, a game changer, essentially, in Russia's behaviour when it extends its nuclear potential to foreign territory.

NK: Ukrainian officials refer to what is unfolding as Putin, you know, taking Belarus and its people, quote, "nuclear hostage". How will this impact people just day to day if this plan unfolds, as Vladimir Putin says it will?

VK: Well, importantly, that this nuclear weapon will stay under Russian control. This is not under control of Lukashenko. But at the same time, this means that Russians will do whatever they want with these weapons without asking the Belarus of whether to use or not these weapons, which means that at any moment Russians can go their own way and use [inaudible] nuclear weapons. But Belarusians will be responsible for this because retaliation strikes could come exactly in the Belarusian territory. So, this will affect not only Belarusians, but the entire region.

NK: And we've certainly on this program discussed, you know, how difficult it is when people speak out about what they disagree with in Belarus. And what will this plan mean for people who certainly did not have a say in this decision and this plan?

VK: Well, actually, when people spoke about this, it was in 1990 when Belarusians adopted a declaration of state sovereignty, although that was even before the Soviet Union collapsed. But back then in this declaration, two important clauses were included. One is that Belarus will be a non-nuclear state. And the other is that Belarus will pursue neutrality in foreign affairs. Lukashenko completely undermines the will of people contradicted and makes us, puts us in grave danger because Russia is coming to our territory. This is not just a response to the West pressure because of Russian aggression against Ukraine, but Russians when they come, they don't leave voluntarily. When they come, they never want to go. And this means that Belarusians will have to think about how to liberate the territory of Belarus from their unwanted military presence.

NK: What do you think will happen to people who raise the points that you just read about Belarus choosing to be a non-nuclear state, who speak out against what is happening?

VK: With a high degree of confidence, I can say that any attempt to protect against this will end in imprisonment. And we've seen this since the beginning of the invasion in Ukraine, when thousands and tens of thousands of those who protested, many of them conducted an act of sabotage against Russian military on the territory of Belarus. And it all ended with the regime of Lukashenko repressing those people, putting them in prison. There's no doubt that there will be a similar reaction and maybe even tougher.

NK: Just before we started speaking, Valery, U.S. officials have put out a statement, were asked about this, the spokesperson for the National Security Council, John Kirby, says, quote, "we are watching this as best we can. We haven't seen any movement by Mr. Putin to act on what he pledged he would do". So, essentially, they're saying that they haven't seen any clear indications that Putin is getting closer to actually using tactical nuclear weapons in Ukraine. Does that reassure you?

VK: It does not. Wait and see is not a feasible approach. This development and this deployment of Russian nuclear weapons in Belarus must be prevented at the early stage, not when it's happens, but before it happens. Belarus is a sovereign state. It is a founding member of the United Nations. And the response from the international community to this development must be as tough and clear as it used to be before. This is unacceptable. This goes beyond the will of the Belarusian people. This essentially triggers the arms race in the region and internationally. And I think the response must be clearer and it must be much tougher.

NK: Valery, thank you.

VK: Thank you very much.

CH: Valery Kaveleuski is Belarus's representative for foreign affairs. He's in Washington, D.C.

[Music: calm techno]

Vancouver SRO

CH: In Vancouver, single room occupancy buildings or SROs are supposed to offer cheap housing for the most vulnerable people. The city has even called them the last stop before homelessness. But those often squalid SROs are not subject to rent control, and the cost of a room in those privately owned buildings keeps going up, in some cases over a thousand dollars a month. Johnny Loudon says he spent years trying to get himself and his girlfriend out of homelessness and into one of the buildings. He's paying 1300 a month for his room. He spoke to the CBC outside his SRO in downtown Vancouver.

SOUNDCLIP

JOHNNY LOUDON: A single room with a sink. And the water is sometimes so bad that we can't even drink it. And like we get shelves and that's it. Like, literally [inaudible] the windows in the front of the building are a single pane. So, like we have, we have to have like a space heater inside of our place because it's not heated.

JOEL BALLARD: How do you afford 1300 bucks?

JL: My welfare. Like, literally, I sacrifice part of my support to get rent and my girlfriend's on disability so, she's able to make a little bit more money for food throughout the month. But like, I only get 235 for food for a month and then the rest goes to rent.

JOEL BALLARD: You know, I SROs, it's supposed to be housing for low income people to be able to afford a place to live, a shelter. But when the cost is 1300 dollars. Does that feel affordable to you?

JL: No, not at all. Not at all. Like we were promised, like a double, double room, like a two, two bedroom. That's what they said. And we got basically just a single room, like a single room, not even a separate bedroom or den or anything like that. It's just one square room. And it's like 250/300 square feet. It's worth it for me, it's worth it for me and my girlfriend, because, like, we just wanted to get off the street and get out of the shelters and whatnot, because I think it's too much violence.

JOEL BALLARD: Were you, what was your reaction when you asked if there was a room and they told you, yes, but it's going to cost 1300 dollars altogether?

JL: I honestly wasn't surprised. Honestly, I wasn't surprised at all.

JOEL BALLARD: When you've been looking for housing or two months ago when you were looking for a place where you also looking at, you know, like the not for profit SROs or the modular housing or anything like that.

JL: Modular housing. I've been trying to get in there for so long, man. And like, even when I was technically considered a youth, like when I was under 24 years of age, like I was on the wait list for so long and like, it was just, it became hopeless because like, everybody else was getting housing and I just fell through the cracks.

CH: Johnny Louden talking to the CBC's Joel Ballard outside his single room occupancy building in downtown Vancouver.

[Music: soft guitar]

China Bailout Loans

Guest: Brad Parks

CH: From tech to trade. China plays an enormous role on the world stage. That's not surprising. But new research suggests China has also rapidly become a major player in a field you might not expect, financing emergency bailout loans. For decades, countries in distress have turned to the United States and the International Monetary Fund, or IMF for help repaying their debt. Now China is playing a growing role in bailing out those countries, offering billions in loans in the process. Brad Parks is a co-author of a study on the subject and the executive director of the research lab Aid Data. We reached him in Williamsburg, Virginia.

NK: Brad, when you were first looking through these numbers and saw what China has been loaning out to countries in trouble over the past ten years or so, what struck you most?

BRAD PARKS: I think the thing that struck me is just this idea that in a relatively short period of time, China became the world's largest official creditor, larger than the IMF, the World Bank and all the Western creditors combined. And now, you know, fast forward to 2023. I think if you're sitting in Beijing and you're sort of looking at this vast infrastructure project portfolio that you've built up through thousands of loans. What are you seeing? You're seeing a lot of flashing red lights on your dashboard. So, Beijing's responding with a strategic pivot. It's ramping down infrastructure project lending and it's ramping up emergency rescue lending.

NK: How much money are we talking about?

BP: We're talking about 240 billion dollars spread across 22 countries.

NK: And which countries?

BP: So, countries like Pakistan and Turkey and Argentina are among the biggest borrowers. And there's a reason why the biggest borrowers are middle income countries. Chinese banks, they have an interest in ensuring that their biggest borrowers have enough cash on hand or they're sufficiently liquid to continue servicing their debts.

NK: How are these loans different than what we've seen traditionally with the International Monetary Fund, the IMF, of course, and the United States, which have largely been responsible for these kinds of loans in the past. What's different in this scenario?

BP: A couple of things, one is pricing. So, if you get bailed out by Beijing, what you can expect to receive are loans with very short repayment periods, usually 3 to 12 months and pretty high interest rates around 5 per cent. So, to give you kind of a point of comparison, if you were to take a rescue loan from the IMF, you're probably looking at a 2 per cent interest rate and maybe a 10 year repayment period. So, I think it's you know, it's fair to say that borrowing from Beijing in an emergency situation is not especially cheap. And Beijing is telling the countries that are being bailed out that they can use these emergency loans for two very specific purposes. Number one is they can use the proceeds from the loan to repay existing infrastructure project debts. And then number two, to stockpile foreign exchange reserves. And the reason you want to do that is to avoid credit rating downgrades that could make it even more expensive and difficult to borrow.

NK: The U.S. has called what Beijing is doing, quote, "debt trap diplomacy". What do you call it?

BP: I call it muscular, commercially oriented lending. So, this idea that China is trying to entrap borrowers I think is false. You know, the notion of debt trap diplomacy is the idea that Chinese lenders are collateralizing loans against physical illiquid assets like a seaport or an airport or an electricity grid that they can seize in the event of default. And that narrative, as interesting and seductive as it may be, it is not supported by evidence. So, we've looked through unredacted versions of more than a hundred Chinese loan contracts. And what we found is that Chinese lenders, they don't collateralize on physical assets. They collateralize on cash. So, they typically ask a borrower to maintain a minimum cash balance in an offshore bank account that they control and that they can unilaterally debt it in a moment's notice. So, very savvy. But they're also not seizing strategic physical assets, which is sort of the conventional wisdom associated with this debt trap diplomacy idea.

NK: How much of, you know, that narrative from the United States, how much of that has to do with the fact that they don't want China exerting any influence in this way and they want to remain along with the IMF, the main ports of help when countries need money?

BP: Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there is an element of that. But I think even more important reason why the debt trap diplomacy narrative has survived for so long is that the contracts are shrouded in secrecy. So, China has developed these very stringent confidentiality clauses that shield the terms and conditions of borrowing from public view. And, you know, when you have that level of opacity, it fuels speculation and suspicion. Right. And so that has really provided jet fuel for the debt trap diplomacy narrative.

NK: How much of this is about power for China?

BP: I don't think it's about power. I think it's about profit. You know, Chinese banks have huge exposures here and they want to make sure that they get repaid. And they are making a big bet by getting into the emergency rescue lending business, which is kind of inherently risky. So, if you go it alone and you just kind of bail out a financially distressed government without requiring economic policy reform or bringing all the major creditors to the table, what you're essentially doing is kicking the can down the road and leaving it to others to address that underlying solvency problem.

NK: What are the consequences ultimately if countries can't pay China back?

BP: I don't think you need to look much further than Sri Lanka, right. Sri Lanka is kind of the poster child for a country that's over borrowed from China and implemented a lot of big ticket infrastructure projects that they're having difficulty repaying. And that in turn led to five emergency loans from China in the run up to a default. So, they took four billion dollars of emergency lending. It wasn't enough. They defaulted on their external debt obligations. The president had to flee the country. You know, the government is not able to provide basic public services. So, you know, the consequences can be far flung, and they can be political in nature, even though the origins of this crisis are kind of fundamentally about economics.

NK: Brad, thank you.

BP: My pleasure.

CH: Brad Parks is the executive director of the research lab Aid Data. He's in Williamsburg, Virginia.

[Music: electronic]

Ryan Party

Guest: Ryan Rose

CH: There aren't many times you can show up at an event full of strangers and know every single one of their names. We have covered events like this on the show, a battle where only people named Josh duked it out. A Nigels only night of celebration. A fete for Phil Campbells and only Phil Campbells. And just this Sunday in New York City, a riotous, rip roaring reception exclusively for Ryans. Ryans of all stripes, genders and vibes arrived at the Ryan Maguire Pub for a night of camaradeRyan and to discuss all things Ryan. Ryan Rose is a photographer and the organizer of the meet up. We reached her in New York City.

NK: Ryan, how was the party?

RYAN ROSE: The party was amazing.

NK: Big turnout.

RR: Absolutely. This is actually our second meet up and our numbers grew probably 300 times.

NK: So, how many people were there at the Ryan Maguire bar?

RR: I think, we tried keeping track and checking IDs. We got around 100 or so, give or take.

NK: So, you were checking IDs. Was that to make sure you know that everyone that entered was a Ryan and only a Ryan?

RR: Yes, absolutely. We're very strict about that. We also want to make sure there were no Brians reaching into the...

NK: Well, I was going to ask you about this no, Brian rule sounds kind of harsh. What a Brians ever do to you.

RR: You know, it's not as harsh as it seems. You know, we're just, they just aren't Ryans and Ryans have always been getting mixed up with Brians for years, and we're just tired of always having to fix that misinterpretation of our name.

NK: Oh, I understand about name mix ups. Absolutely. It's also one of those names that obviously can be used by all genders. Were there, was there a big turnout of women there?

RR: Definitely, not as many as men, of course, and I assumed that. But I think something special about the team is that it's very diverse in gender, ethnicity and background. So, we had all sorts of people coming to the event.

NK: So, you love your name. The confusion with Brian notwithstanding. Why did you want to start this event in the first place?

RR: I wanted a group for Ryans to meet other Ryans, and ever since I moved to the city, I haven't really found my clique and I've joined different groups and tried to start some, but I just was longing for something more. And one day I just went home and made a flyer and posted about like 20 around my neighbourhood. It just kind of grew from there.

NK: You could have done it based on a hobby or I don't know anything. The fact that you like chocolate or don't like chocolate. Why base it on the name?

RR: I thought it'd just be fun. And what was special about this group is everybody was into so many different things and there were so many different kinds of Ryans there. And the only thing that we actually shared was our first name. So, we got to meet people who are involved in so many different things. I learned about so many different things, and I think it was like the best way to meet all sorts of people.

NK: It can be hard too, to make new friends when you're older, especially in a big city like New York, especially after the time that we've all been through during this pandemic. So, what kinds of connections did you make?

RR: Quite a few. There was this one, Ryan, going around trying to round up Ryans who play music, and there was about 15 of us there, and we thought about starting Ryan bands. We have enough Ryans to make actually two bands.

NK: What was your relationship with your name growing up? Did you like it? Did you hate that it was a boy's name, too?

RR: It was, it was a very back and forth relationship, I think. Yeah. Having a guy's name as a female, like, you know, kids can be kind of mean. They don't know better. So, I definitely got made fun of a lot. And I'd always get mixed up in like, guys sports or one year in the yearbook, there was a picture of a guy with my name underneath, and they never fixed that. But as I grew older, I grew to love it because of how diverse it is, and it is kind of unique for a female. Yeah, I'm very proud of it now.

NK: And has this party increased your love even more of your name or your appreciation for your name?

RR: Oh, absolutely. I think it increased all the Ryans' love for the name even more. Everyone is super excited about it and I was super excited to see everyone excited about it. And every Ryan, there was amazing. They were all great people. And it was really fun to meet everybody.

NK: Who surprised you the most?

RR: There was actually a baby Ryan there, they're only nine months old. So, their parents brought them and that was super cute to see. And there was this one, Ryan, that came all the way from Texas. We just called them Texas Ryan the whole night.

NK: [laughter] And how they feel about that?

RR: Oh, they loved it. They came in full cowboy hat, buckle, cowboy boots.

NK: They were playing the part fully, it sounds like. Why did your parents choose Ryan? Did they ever tell you?

RR: You know, they did tell me. I was actually conceived in someone's room named Ryan. And they said, whatever it is, its name is Ryan. And I came out to be a female.

NK: [laughter] Whatever it its name is Ryan. It's a great origin story, Ryan, I got to say. Are you planning on doing this regularly? Is this going to be a monthly party now?

RR: So yeah, we're definitely trying to grow it. We've had Ryans reach out to us from all over the country and even the world. There's Ryans from England, Japan, Australia, South Africa. And while we livestream the event on Instagram, some people said they were watching from like an igloo somewhere. So yeah, we would love to. We're trying to figure it out, but we'd love to like hosts in all these different locations and bring all the Ryan together across the globe and we just want all the Ryans to able to experience the same sense of community that we did on Sunday night.

NK: Yeah. So, a travelling party or a convention? Maybe, both.

RR: Yeah. Well that's the thing we're still figuring out. We'd love to. We want to gather Ryans all around. I think the ultimate goal would be to have them all together in one spot. So, that's what the idea of this grand convention would come in where, yeah, we would all be named Ryan, have some guest speakers and all these Ryans do different things, so it'd be cool to have workshops and maybe at the end have this giant blow-out Ryan ball of some sort.

NK: What do you think is the power in connecting with people who share this name?

RR: It's so interesting. It feels like cosmic, like the stars are aligned. But whenever I meet somebody named Ryan, I feel like this. Yeah, there is like instant connection. Like we're already friends and we've been friends and there's actually a study on it, someone told me about actually feeling connected to people with your name, even without knowing them.

NK: Interesting. I think I feel the same way. My name doesn't come around very often, so I totally hear you. Well, Ryan, thank you. And good luck with the rest of the parties.

RR: Right. Thank you so much for having me.

CH: Ryan Rose organizes and runs the Ryan Meet-up in New York City.

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March 28, 2023 Episode Transcript