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The AIH transcript for January 31, 2023

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is "As It Happens."

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

NK: Secret weapons. Human Rights Watch says it has uncovered evidence Ukraine used banned landmines as it battles Russia -- and that those mines have already killed and wounded civilians.

CH: Finding the plot. After the deadly bombing of a mosque in Pakistan, police are questioning how the suicide bomber could have got so much explosive material into such a secure area if he was working alone.

NK: Radio silence. After 85 years, BBC ends its Arabic service, which had millions of listeners around the world. Our guest used to run that service and tells us about its legacy and what cutting off that connection will mean.

CH: They were naming a bird, not flipping the bird. Twitter's algorithm locks a British ornithology group out of its own account, seemingly for using the name of a common bird. But it turns out to have been just a wild goose chase.

NK: Cosmos and effect. A University of Toronto student tells us how he is using artificial intelligence and, of course, his own real intelligence to help detect extraterrestrial radio signals from space.

CH: And… wake up call. When our guest named her new diner Woke Breakfast & Coffee, she had no idea that she was putting a major controversy on the menu. She tells us how she calmed the situation to become the toast of the town.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that admires her for extending an olive brunch.

Part 1: Ukraine Mines, BBC Arabic Off Air, Woke Breakfast & Coffee

Ukraine Mines

Guest: Steve Goose

CH: Today, Ukraine stands accused of using banned antipersonnel landmines during its push to liberate the eastern province of Kharkiv. Human Rights Watch is calling on Kyiv to account for the apparent use of the landmines around the city of Izyum. The NGO says it uncovered evidence that eleven civilians died as a result. And that nearly 50 others -- including several children -- were injured. The small PFM antipersonnel mines -- also known as "butterfly mines" or "petal mines" -- are banned under a 1997 treaty that Ukraine has signed and ratified. In a statement, the Ukrainian government did not confirm its use of the mines. Instead, it pledged to look into what happened. Steve Goose is the director of the arms division at Human Rights Watch. We reached him in Putney, Vermont.

NK: Steve, so… so, what prompted you and the team that you're working with to… to start investigating Ukraine's use of these antipersonnel land mines?

STEVE GOOSE: Our team went into Ukraine to look at Russian violations, including war crimes and torture and other things. But they found that everybody they talked to was talking about the dangers that were being posed by antipersonnel mines in many different areas. Virtually everyone they were interviewing, they did 100 interviews, was complaining about antipersonnel mines. So we decided to shift the mission to undertake a thorough investigation of those antipersonnel mines.

NK: And what were these folks saying to your team?

SG: They were saying that these mines were causing real problems of a humanitarian nature. We talked to doctors who said that more than 50 people had been undergoing amputations because of the landmines. They… it's still terror in the population. Landmines are horrible things. And these are particularly bad. They're used in very large numbers. They look innocuous. They're nicknamed butterfly mines because they're little pretty things, bright green colours, and they have something that looks like wings on them. So, the dangers are really strong.

NK: Is it possible, you know, as you were investigating, that it could have been a rogue operation, a rogue actor? Or, you know, what could be behind this? Because I think people listening might find it difficult, you know, to understand why Ukrainians, Ukrainian military would be behind leaving landmines that are so horrific among Ukrainian people.

SG: Yes, it is very objectionable that they might even consider using antipersonnel mines because they're part of the treaty that bans antipersonnel mines. And they have been a good member of that convention for a long time. But they're fighting for their existence now. And so, they may have felt they had to use everything at their disposal. There is no explanation that's acceptable, though. At the idea of a rogue commander, you would think if that occurred, it would be a sort of a one-off or two-off. But these were attacks, landmine attacks, that took place over many months. And there were many, many attacks, thousands of mines dispersed over many areas. And that is something that really needs to be planned and talked out. It's not something that just an individual commander can do.

NK: Ukraine, we should say, has not denied that it used these weapons, but it hasn't confirmed it either. It says it's going to study your report.

SG: That’s right.

NK: Why do you think it's important that Ukraine own up to this?

SG: Yeah, we welcome that response because there was no denial. And they're going to look carefully at our report, which is essentially what we want them to do. And as a result of that, undertake a thorough investigation into who's responsible for the use of those antipersonnel mines.

NK: How long… you know, when someone, if someone, takes responsibility, how long would it take to clean up the mines by the thousands, as you're describing?

SG: Well, the thing is, it's not just the Ukrainian mines that have been spread around many different areas. It's also the Russian mines. And indeed, Russia has used many more mines, and many more attacks and many more areas than Ukraine has even thought about doing. So, it's going to be a huge job to take care of the Russian mines, the Ukrainian mines and all of the unexploded ordnance that's going to be left over from this conflict. It's certainly years, and it's probably decades.

NK: In its statement, the Ukrainian government also, you know, says it supports the ban on inhumane weapons such as antipersonnel mines and pointed to… to war crimes, it says, that are committed by Russia, including, as you've mentioned, the use of prohibited mines. So… so, how are you… you know, I know you switched focus in terms of this investigation, but tell us how you're investigating the actions of Russian troops.

SG: Yes, well, we put out many, many reports on Russia and the war crimes that they have committed and other violations of international humanitarian law. We're continuing to put out reports on Russian violations, and we've already put out three reports on Russian use of landmines. They use seven or eight different types of antipersonnel mines and use them in many different parts of the country, really in a despicable fashion, taking no care for the safety of civilians. They are not at all the good guy in this story. In fact, they're… they're horrific with their behaviour.

NK: What's your assessment, Steve, about how Ukraine's allies, including the United States and Canada, are responding to things such as you're pointing out with this report on landmines and Ukrainian alleged involvement in that? Do you think that there's a reluctance to criticize Ukraine for its conduct in this war?

SG: We haven't heard any responses from other states, the donor states, the states providing weapons yet. What we hope is that 163 other members of the Mine Ban Treaty will all express their concerns to Ukraine. Ask them to undertake an investigation and to hold those responsible accountable, and try to bring Ukraine back into the fold as a functioning and standing-up member of the Mine Ban Treaty. They can get back there quite easily, we think.

NK: Given that this has happened, how worried are you as this war drags on that this is going to continue and there'll be even more mines and many more decades of cleanup necessitated after that?

SG: I'm worried very much about Russia's ongoing use and possibly Russia's increased use of antipersonnel mines. There's speculation that Russia will increase its use of mines to try to counter any Ukrainian offensive. I think we're going to be able to convince Ukraine that it should no longer… it should never use antipersonnel mines. But Russia is going to be a big problem.

NK: Steve, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

SG: Thank you very much.

CH: Steve Goose is the director of the arms division of Human Rights Watch. He was in Putney, Vermont.

[music: xylophone!!!]

BBC Arabic Off Air

Guest: Hosam Sokkari

SOUNDCLIP

[sound: a radio announcer speaks a sign-off of BBC in Arabic]

CH: That was the sound of BBC Arabic Radio's final broadcast last Friday -- closing an 85-year chapter that reached, and touched, millions of listeners worldwide. The service is a casualty of widespread cuts made within the British Broadcasting Corporation to save money. And for many, the loss comes at a steep cultural cost. Hosam Sokkari is a media consultant and the former head of the BBC Arabic Network. We reached him in Cairo, Egypt.

NK: I know you left BBC in 2010, Hosam, but it was such a large part of your career, an important part of your career. So, what was it like to… to see and hear that, that it was coming to an end?

HOSAM SOKKARI: Well, it… it feels sad because this part of the operation is the sort of the most authentic part of it. You know, this… this service started in 1938, has been operating continuously for about 85 years now. It has its place in the memories of generations who have always felt associated with it. They have never felt this particular operation, the BBC Radio, as alien to them. It has been very Arabic in many senses. It was a lifeline for some people. It was a source of information for quite a large number of people. It was the place to go when they wanted to get the news about controversial events and aspects. And this is what they trusted for…. for… for decades. In the history of the Arabic services, there have been many instances where people knew about things like the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, for example, back in, I think, 1992. They heard it first on the BBC. And local and domestic news outlets are heavily censored. The situation is different now, but still, the BBC was, and is, the source of trustworthy news and information.

NK: What else do you think listeners lose when they lose access to programming such as the programming BBC Arabic was offering?

HS: Well, it's actually a loss for the BBC itself. I mean, the BBC is losing a chunk of its audience, and it's actually the poorer chunk. It's the chunk of audience that cannot get the slightly more expensive devices to access the Internet, you know? And we have… we had audiences in Yemen and in Sudan and in Libya, in places where it was possible to reach an international operation like the BBC using a small, cheap device like a radio. That is not going to be possible. There were times when we had specific operations for people in Darfur, for example, during the conflicts. We had a special FM operation, which was a lifeline for people there. This is how you get information about health sanitisation, power sources. So, it's… it's quite a… it's quite a loss for some audiences.

NK: Yeah, I… I wonder, you know, the BBC has said I believe that they want to go where the audiences are. And audiences are in the digital space. But as you're saying, not... not everyone in the audience has access to… to that. So, what do you make of that reasoning for… behind, you know, taking this down?

HS: I think it's a marketing and communication plan where it was decided to use the digital slogan because it sounds nice. And I wouldn't really disprove it. But at the same time, the… the change is not about technology. The change is about the budget. You know, the BBC has been abandoned back in 2014 when the government decided that the… the special funding that was there for the BBC World Service, for the language services, is going to stop. They decided that this is going to be financed from the licence fees, and these are the fees that every single household in the U.K. pays to get information and use through the BBC. This is a domestic fee for a domestic service. But the government decided that they are not going to allocate part of the budget for the BBC World Service, and it is for the BBC to finance this part of the operation.

NK: I wonder who… you know, you're a media consultant now. Who do you think will fill this void?

HS: I don't know. [chuckle]

NK: Yeah.

HS: I don't know if lots of people are interested in poorer audiences. Other operations… I think the BBC has always lasted longer than others because Voice of America closed down a long time ago. And that void actually will not be filled by anyone. And it hasn't been filled by anyone. There is something unique about the BBC, which is… it is true that it started… the BBC Arabic service, in particular, started around the Second World War, and there was a colonial context associated with it. But what… what is unique about the BBC is that the BBC has developed its own editorial values, and these are the ones that have maintained the integrity of the product. And that… that was… that was unique.

NK: Before we let you go, if you could just think back, any favourite stories or memories from the time you were there?

HS: I have a memory from… from the first program that I made for… for the BBC radio. And it was, at the time, I made a program called the Electronic Cafe Tales. And at the time, I wanted to introduce the Internet to audiences who have no access to the Internet because there were no Internet services at the time. And that was done through stories and metaphors. And it was interestingly popular at the time, and especially in, you know, places like Sudan, for example. And a friend of ours, who was a colleague in the BBC, travelled to Sudan and he came back with… with a photo that I still have till today. And the photo was for a kiosk in the middle of almost nowhere with a banner on top saying the Internet refreshments. There was no Internet at the time in Soudan. [NK chuckles] And probably, the owner didn't know what the internet is, but he used to listen to my stories about it, and he liked it. So, he named his shop after the… the Internet. And he told that he listens to the program. And that has always been dear to me because it meant to me that there are people who have the BBC as their only access to modernity and to the rest of the world. And that was something you really cherish and appreciate.

NK: Hassan, thank you very much for your time and for sharing your memories.

HS: Thank you very much.

CH: Hosam Sokkari is a media consultant and the former head of the BBC Arabic Network. We reached him in Cairo, Egypt.

[music: house]

Woke Breakfast & Coffee

Guest: Carmen Quiroga

CH: When Childish Gambino released that song, "Redbone", in 2016, he obviously thought staying "woke" was something to be celebrated. Because, at the time, the word "woke" was used exclusively by Black Americans and Canadians. And it still had a very specific meaning -- to be awake to the existence of racial injustice in the world. But seven years later, things have changed.

SOUNDCLIP

RON DESANTIS: We will fight the woke in the businesses. We will fight the woke in government agencies. We will fight the woke in our schools. We will never, ever surrender to the woke agenda. Florida is the state where woke goes to die.

[sound: clapping and cheering]

CH: That was Florida Governor Ron DeSantis invoking none other than Winston Churchill, as he framed the battle over the supposed "woke" ideology he says is taking over his state. Still, there are a few people who have remained blissfully unaware of the woke wars. People for whom "woke" is just the past tense of "wake". And therefore, seemingly the perfect name for a new breakfast restaurant. Carmen Quiroga is the owner of Woke Breakfast & Coffee. We reached her in Coventry, Connecticut.

NK: Carmen, what did you think when all of the negative messages started coming in after you announced the name of your restaurant?

CARMEN QUIROGA: I feel so sad, and a little scary to the people that don't support my business because I moved to Coventry in Christmas Eve, and I don't know nothing about the controversy.

NK: What kind of things were people saying?

CQ: Well, the name is… oh, I never going there. I don't want this for the people to use the name. And many, many things. I don't read too much because I… I just want to cry in the moment.

NK: Oh.

CQ: That was too much.

NK: Yeah, you didn't want to focus on the negative comments.

CQ: Exactly

NK: You wanted to do… do your work.

CQ: Yeah.

NK: Did… did you think about, you know, giving up on the… the opening when all of those negative messages were coming in?

CQ: Well, I talked to my family and I think maybe we change… we can change the name because we don't know what's the controversy. I don't know nothing about the bad things about the name. But we think all together we work very hard to do the name, design, cups, many, many stuff for the restaurant. So we put a lot of money to start everything again. So… and that's going to take months. So I say, well, we’re going to do the way we know, just work hard and try to do the best food we can.

NK: So, it's clear you didn't know that that woke had any political, cultural significance?

CQ: Correct. I don’t have any, yeah.

NK: Why did you want to call it woke in the first place? How did you come up with the name?

CQ: Well, I tried to figure out something the people…. when you wake up in the morning, the first thing you want is to feel like you don’t want to leave the bed. You want to stay in the bed. The first thing you want is to drink a coffee to, like, wake up, right?

NK: For sure.

CQ: So, I say woke. I see the “O”, and I say to my son, do you think we can use this word? And he say, well, we can make an egg with the “O”, and it’s a short name that people can remember. So, we start with the idea. So… and I go online to try to find to see if another restaurant used the name. And there's one Woke Coffee. I don't remember exactly where it is, but it’s not in America. And another one is the Woke Restaurant. So, I just used two more restaurant, use the woke. So, I just do Woke LLC. And my sign say “Woke Breakfast & Coffee.

NK: So, yeah, you did some research on the name, making sure others didn't have it. You saw logo opportunities, the egg and the “O”, like you said. And so, you've got all that branding.

CQ: Yeah, when I go to Google, I just looking for restaurant, Woke restaurant, and they show me just the two places. But nothing about the other things, you know?

NK: Yeah. When did you realize that people were upset?

CQ: When I moved to Coventry, Christmas Eve. I just put this sign to say Woke Breakfast coming soon for us and Facebook and Instagram. [sound: construction noises]

NK: Are you building the restaurant right now? I can hear some work happening behind you.

CQ: Oh, hi there. They started doing again work.

NK: No, that’s okay. No, that’s okay. What kinds of things are they doing?

CQ: He is trying to put a new shelf to put more plates, my husband.

NK: Yeah.

CQ: he needs more… more plates in the kitchen because we have many, many customers.

NK: Well, that's a good thing, given everything that's happened. First of all, your husband is the chef and the carpenter. That's good.

CQ: [chuckle] Yeah.

NK: Multi… multi-skilled staff is important. Yeah, and I guess… yeah, what was it like, you know, to go from negative messages to, now, you need more plates because it's so popular?

CQ: Yes, it is. Yeah, when I open and I see a bunch of people waiting outside, so I'm so happy because I didn’t think that it’s going to be as busy as it is now.

NK: What were those people saying to you because you were so worried?

CQ: The people… yeah, people say that bad people don't represent the town. [sound: a saw whirrs] Some people just put one star on Google. They don't say anything.

NK: Even though they don’t have --

CQ: So, of course, they never come to the restaurant. They know nothing.

NK: Even though they haven't tried any of the food?

CQ: That’s correct.

NK: Does Coventry feel more like home now?

CQ: Yes, 100 per cent, sure. [sound: a phone rings] People look at me and say, oh, we're going to support you. No worries. We're going to be here every day. Just looking for me to say, hi, I just want to say I'm going to be here every day. I support your business. And it’s so nice, yeah.

NK: Yeah. The phones are ringing, the shelves are going up, your family's happy.

CQ: Yes. Yes.

NK: And just tell me what your specialities are.

CQ: Well, everybody loves the crepes. We make fruit… fresh fruit, chilaquiles and huevos rancheros.

NK: Sounds delicious. [both chuckle] Okay, well… well, much luck to you and your family, Carmen. I appreciate your time.

CQ: Oh. All right. Thank you for your call. Thank you.

NK: Take care.

CQ: Bye-bye.

CH: Carmen Quiroga is the owner of Woke Breakfast & Coffee. We reached her in Coventry, Connecticut.

[music: cheery instrumental]

Twitter Bird Charity Banned

CH: I… I just don't know about the algorithm. I mean: I literally don't know exactly what an algorithm is. But I also mean that I have doubts about it. On one hand, we can all agree that the algorithm is a virtual, soulless panopticon that knows far too much about us. And -- on the other hand -- that it is a dummy. For example: it seems like "the algorithm" locked the British Trust for Ornithology out of its Twitter account. As you'd guess from its name, the B.T.O. is devoted to increasing understanding of birds. So, it's not just harmless, it's helpful! But not according to the algorithm -- which the BTO's media manager believes "might have misinterpreted" a certain word in a whole bunch of tweets. That word is the name of a bird. A bird once profiled in a BBC report. A bird named…

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: The [expletive beep]

CH: What? No, sorry. Reynold, can you just play that again? Something went wrong, obviously.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: The [expletive beep]

CH: What is… awe, wait a second. Reynold, can you turn off the algorithm, please? Let's try it again.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: The woodcock.

CH: Ugh! The Algorithm! Now, woodcock is the normal, inoffensive name of an adorable, plump, wading bird. And this month, the British Trust for Ornithology sent several tweets asking birders to help count woodcocks. And something about that innocuous bird name caused the algorithm to panic because it locked B.T.O out of its account. For 10 days, the trust petitioned Twitter to regain access. No response, until suddenly on Sunday, still with no explanation, its account was unlocked. We may never know what about the name woodcock upset the algorithm’s sensibilities. All we can do is hope this never happens again. You know, knock on wood… cock.

[music: hip-hop beat]

Part 2: Peshawar Mosque Bombing, UFT UFO

Peshawar Mosque Bombing

Guest: Azizullah Khan

CH: In Peshawar today, the death toll from yesterday's mosque bombing seemed to rise by the hour. The mosque was located inside what was supposed to be a Pakistani police security zone. But officials say that didn't stop a suicide bomber from detonating several kilograms of high explosives during afternoon prayers. At least a hundred people are now believed to have died in the blast and the structural collapse that followed. Hundreds more have been terribly injured. Azizullah Khan is a veteran reporter for BBC Pakistan. We reached him in Peshawar.

NK: Aziz, I'm wondering, you know, a day after the attack, how people there generally are processing what has happened in Peshawar, how they're feeling?

AZIZULLAH KHAN: Basically, the atmosphere is very sad. I have visited so many areas. People are worried because Peshawar have witnessed many attacks, but this time they have attacked the police line where the centre of this province, police centre of this province. And this is one of the major attack in the recent history of Peshawar.

NK: What are you hearing specifically from people who survived this horrific attack, but also the families who lost loved ones?

AK: They are worried because today when we were waiting outside of this police line for that rescue operation to come complete, and then they were… they asked the journalists that they will allow us. At that time, I think half a dozen people were waiting because their loved one was missing. And one person who came from the north, and he was begging to the police, let me go in. I want to see if my brother is over here. And he was crying. Similarly, when we visited the hospital, in the hospital, many people were there and they were searching their loved one because all the injured were not brought. The rescue department, they have conducted the operation since yesterday when this blast took place. And last night, they brought out about 48 dead bodies and one injured who was struck in the debris. He was brought to hospital as well. I have been told that when the blast took place, the roof of that mosque fell down on the people who were busy at that time in the prayers. Some were struck, their legs were under the debris. Some of their hands were cut and some people went and their legs were cut down.

NK: It's… it's so awful to hear, as is the location you mentioned. It leads to the next question. And I know it's a question many people are asking. How was the attacker able to get there, armed in the way that they were? Because there are checkpoints before getting there. It is supposed to be a secure area.

AK: This is one of the major questions that we asked the inspector general of the police today. And he says that he has in his mind because how a person crossed these all security checkpoints. And he admitted that this is the security breach, and they will investigate it. But he says that 10 to 12 kilograms of the explosives were used. And this is not possible that he might have taken it in one go. He says that it could be possible that he have visited this area so many times and brought these explosives every little bit and little bit. And he gathered that inside the police line somewhere in the area. And he says that he might have the support of someone inside that police line. So, they are investigating it. And he says that this is not possible to watch all these CCTV cameras because they will have to watch one month because at the time of the blast, they have found out the head of that suicide bomber and they are trying to investigate it. His DNAs were also taken out. This is one of the most secure area because that has been surrounded by all the major buildings like a central jail is over there, the judicial complex is over there. The deputy commissioner office is there, The minister's offices are there, the governor’s house is there and it is just surrounded in that building.

NK: So, security forces, police were clearly the intended target here.

AK: I have been told that they might have record. They have surveyed, they have a planning that they should attack. And they selected the mosque because this is a scattered area. Different offices are there and people remain all the time busy in the scattered area. But for the prayers, almost all people are gathered in that mosque. So, that's why they have selected it and they have executed their plan in the mosque.

NK: What can you tell us, Aziz, about who is claiming responsibility for this attack? You know, we've heard Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan, a militia of the Pakistani Taliban, said they were responsible but then later denied it.

AK: Basically, we have tried because we received information from one of the members of this TTP. His name is Omar Khurasani. His tweet was that we did this attack, but the regular spokesperson, he said that we were not involved in this attack because we do not want to attack the mosques and general people. But when we talked to the police officer, they said that there are two to three groups there that are involved. Actually, in last couple of years, the TTP get united. There were different factions of the Taliban who are fighting on their own. But last year, when the Pakistan government started negotiations with the Taliban so that they could bring them to the mainstream over here. At that time, one of them was killed in Afghanistan, and by the Taliban, I think. So they allege that there could be some Pakistan official that were responsible for this attack, but Pakistan denied that thing. So, this is the thing that after that incident, I think they developed differences because they want to revenge. So, that's why it's not clear who's responsible for this attack.

NK The fear you mentioned, the questions for the government after this attack. What do you think it will mean? What do you think the aftermath of this attack will mean for Pakistan's government?

AK: Basically, they'll have to work because the… the security forces and the prime minister of the Pakistan visited yesterday Peshawar. And they have said that they're not allowed the militants for these kind of attacks, and they will have to retaliate. And they will find out who was responsible. They will have to face the consequences. That's why I think so they will have to do… some strong steps will be taken against such militants, I think, in the near future.

NK: Aziz, thank you for your time.

AK: It's my pleasure.

CH: Azizullah Khan is a reporter for BBC Pakistan. We reached him in Peshawar.

[music: hip-hop beat]

B.C. Drug Deaths

CH: You may have heard our interview with British Columbia's Minister of Mental Health and Addictions on yesterday's program. Jennifer Whiteside talked about the province's new drug decriminalization pilot project. She said she hoped it would help reduce stigma and shame around drug use -- which might stop people from asking for help. The pilot project starts today. On the same day that B.C.'s coroner's service has released new numbers related to the crisis. It announced that at least 2,272 British Columbians died because of toxic drugs in 2022. That means that, for the past two years, six people have died every day, on average. Dr. Paxton Bach was part of today's press conference. He's a physician, and the co-medical director at the BC Centre on Substance Use.

SOUNDCLIP

PAXTON BACH: This has gone on far too long. It's an emergency. And it demands an urgent response that's commensurate with the scale of damage that we're seeing. And one that's reflective of the response that our… our citizens, our family members, our friends and our communities deserve from the beginning. I often hear a narrative of… of investment in harm reduction versus treatment. And I would say I want to push back on that narrative because once we start down that pathway, we've already lost. The reality is that we don't need to invest in any one strategy but… but a spectrum. A spectrum of care that our patients are desperately deserving and needing. And we need to recognize that an individual's relationship with substances and their journey is seldom a linear one. I have patients who are engaging with me and trying to stabilize the medications but continue to… to lean on harm reduction services to stay alive in the meantime. I have other patients who have been in treatment or recovery for weeks, months or even years, and yet setbacks occur, and it's very important that they have those safety nets to fall back on and to ensure that those setbacks aren't fatal. To the families of the 45 individuals who've passed away in the last week alone from a toxic drug supply, to their friends and their colleagues and their communities and their loved ones, my heart goes out to you, and I'm so sorry that we're continuing to fail. I hope that we can sit with that grief and that outrage. I hope that that every member, every citizen of the province, reflects on this report and, feels that outrage, and uses that to drive the advocacy that is needed to generate change. I desperately, desperately don't want to be back here next year. But in order for us to do so, we need to start treating this like the emergency that it is.

CH: That was Dr. Paxton Bach of the BC Centre on Substance Use, speaking at a press conference today -- as the provincial coroner's service announced that more than 2,200 British Columbians died of toxic drugs last year.

[music: the mini-update theme, but there’s no mini-update]

UFT UFO

Guest: Peter Ma

CH: What if you could hear the sound of extraterrestrial life coming through your radio? [snide chuckle] I don't mean me. I'm human. As far as I know. Unless all my memories have been implanted, and I'm really an alien. That's unsettling. I… I really wish I hadn't said it. All I'm trying to do is introduce a university student named Peter Ma. He has turned his high school coding hobby into a full-blown AI algorithm to search for alien radio signals -- but, you know, [chuckle] a good algorithm. Peter Ma is a student at the University of Toronto. And his algorithm was featured in a research study published in the science journal Nature Astronomy on Monday. We reached him in Toronto.

NK: Well, Peter, I know some people listening to this conversation right now are hearing us through a radio signal. What do you think? Could extraterrestrial life be listening in too?

PETER MA: I don't know, perhaps. We're sending our radio signals out there, and maybe some… some passer by might be listening to this conversation as we speak. It would be pretty interesting.

NK: It would be interesting. They can… they can email us at the As It Happens inbox. [both chuckle] We'll find out. How did this project, though, first begin?

PM: So, this project first kind of started off when I was in high school. So, at the end of high school, 2020, when a pandemic hit all of us, we all found ourselves with a lot of free time. So, I was like, okay, might as well have some fun well this happens, while the world is kind of closed. And so, previously, I taught myself how to code and had some projects in mind. I was looking for some, you know, open research questions that had lots of data. And this project seemed to fit all those… like all those criterias. And they had open-source data for me that I could use. And I was just playing around with this project. And then, I reached out to the folks about what I was working on. They seemed very excited about me or at least what I was doing, and they invited me to continue on.

NK: And we're going to dig into that. But I think it's so fascinating on a couple of fronts. But when you said, you know, the world was shut down, the world was closed, and you wanted to widen it even further, not only you wanted to open it up, but you wanted to widen the connections.

PM: Yeah, in looking back, I feel like I did feel the need to… to… to look for something out there to… to do something kind of meaningful, like a meaningful project. And, to me, this was the way to go.

NK: So, you took that coding hobby and created an AI algorithm to search for alien radio signals. You partnered with UC Berkeley, the… who are, you know, they're also working… the team there, looking for extraterrestrial intelligence. What have you discovered together so far?

PM: Yeah. So, first of all, the main result of our work was that we discovered these eight interesting signals that, you know, traditional techniques failed to find. So, a quick summary was that we searched through using this algorithm that I designed on data that has already been looked at previously by our traditional algorithms, and they weren't picked up. As researchers looking at this data, we're like, this definitely does look very suspicious. And so, we went out to re-observe these targets. And, unfortunately, we didn't find them again. So, we haven't found the technosignatures. We haven't found signs of life beyond Earth yet. But this is a promising technique that, you know, is… you know, we hope to accelerate future… future study work in general.

NK: You know, when you say you noticed things that were… that are interesting or suspicious, just what is… what was it that you were noticing?

PM: So, first of all, we noticed that these were narrowband signals. So, in other words, they are signs that they come from a piece of technology, something akin to, like, a phone or a radio signal. Then, we realized that they only appear when we're looking at a star and disappear when we're not looking at the star. It turns out a big problem in our field is that we keep on finding ourselves. And that makes sense because we're intelligent. But that's not interesting, right?

NK: Um-hmm.

PM: And so, we're trying to make sure that these signals are coming actually from space, not from our own satellites or, you know, maybe some guys microwaving their pizza for lunch. [NK chuckles] or, you know, some GPS is out there just hovering above you. You know, these are situations and where we find ourselves looking at ourselves.

NK: Where does your imagination take you as you're… as you're seeing this all unfold? I know you can't speculate. I know you're a scientist, but where does your mind take you?

PA: So, you know, personally, like, just from the science, I feel like the idea that we're truly alone in this universe is fairly naive of an idea. You know, the more we look out there into the universe, the more we realize that our situation is rather unremarkable than it actually appears. You know, the amount of Earth-like planets that are orbiting around some stable star with possible liquid water on the surface isn't as rare as we used to think it is. And so, you know, my imagination takes me to, like, there's got to be something out there type of thing, right? Like, my imagination is very skeptical about the status quo that we are truly alone in the universe.

NK: You're an undergrad student right now. You know, you're… this is… you've done so much already, but this is still early on in your career. So, you know, what do you want to do next? What are the big questions that you're hungry to answer?

PM: In general, my interests lie in how can we use these new emerging texts, like deep learning and machine learning to accelerate various fields of science, specifically in the fundamental science like physics and mathematics? I personally believe that, like, you know, we're at a unique point in human history where, you know, things are starting to advance at such a rapid pace. And, you know, I just want to be kind of part of this kind of new generation of scientists that are working on these important problems. And so, this study being one of these were super profound questions that we have asked ourselves continuously through from like millennia, at this point. I feel like it's a very interesting problem to be tackling with, you know, artificial intelligence, so to speak. And so, more concrete a plan is to pursue grad school and continue to do research further. You know, all the algorithms that we're developing are what we call narrow AI, in the sense that they solve one specific task, like, really, really well. And that's pretty much all they're good for. It's like thinking, like, your smart washing machine is going to end up taking over the world. Fortunately, we're not at that point yet, thank God. But, yeah, in terms of our future, we're not too scared about the existential risks yet.

NK: Yet… that's good to hear. I mean, my washing machine could be better, to be honest. [PM chuckles] But we'll tackle that problem later. Peter, I really appreciate your time. I hope we get to speak again. Thank you.

PM: Thank you. Thank you for having me on.

CH: Peter Ma is an undergraduate student at the University of Toronto. We reached him in Toronto.

[music: indie rock]

FOA: ‘The Trump Tapes’

CH: Donald Trump is in plenty of legal trouble of his own. But that doesn't mean he's given up causing legal trouble for other people. Yesterday, he added more courtroom wrangling to his schedule, when he launched a lawsuit against journalist Bob Woodward. The former president is seeking close to $50 million US -- claiming that recordings of his interviews with Mr. Woodward were used without his permission in the audiobook, The Trump Tapes. Nil spoke to Bob Woodward last November, shortly after the audiobook was released.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Well, Mr. Woodward, I'm wondering what you think the value is of hearing Donald Trump in this way, through these tapes that you've put out, given we've heard so much and continue to hear so much from Mr. Trump himself.

BOB WOODWARD: Yes. But this is different because I was able to interrogate him and follow up with questions, sometimes two dozen times. So you not only hear him, but you see the evasions and the denials and the insistence on a number of things that are just not true.

NK: He's revealed himself to the American public and the international community, who he is, what he believes, many, many times before. What do you think he reveals in these tapes that's new that we haven't heard or understood before?

BW: Much. And for instance, if you take his relationship with Kim Jong-un, the North Korean leader. And he talks about the five major nuclear facilities, not, not because he studied them in depth, but he says he has an uncle who worked at M.I.T. And so Trump told me, you will hear it on these tapes. So I understand that stuff, you know, genetically. Meaning somehow he thinks that the smart uncle who worked at M.I.T. passed on something to Trump that makes him an authority to speak and make judgements on Kim's major nuclear facilities. I mean, this is never, I've never heard anything like this, let alone imagined it, genetically.

NK: I want to play a little for our audience from the Trump tapes on this issue, because Trump does come back to it again and again in your interviews, his relationship with Kim Jong-un. So let's play that clip now.

BW: Do you think you’re giving Kim too much power?

DONALD TRUMP: No.

BW: Because if he says fine, if he shoots one of those in the air, what do you do?

DT: Let me tell you, whether I gave it to him or not, if he shoots, he shoots. And if he shoots, he shoots.

NK: If he shoots, he shoots. You're asking Mr. Trump if he is given Kim too much power. He says if he shoots, he shoots. So what's going through your mind at that moment when you hear him say that?

BW: You know, think of this. The whole theory and operation of nuclear deterrence is shooting using a nuclear weapon, as we now see that Putin is threatening in Ukraine. It's unthinkable. But here, Trump is kind of casually, and again, it's in the tone of the voice. If he shoots, he shoots, as if that is not of great consequence. And so there is a kind of casualness that is dangerous.

CH: From our archives, that was Bob Woodward discussing his audiobook The Trump Tapes with Nil, last November.

[music: R&B]

Part 3: UBC Shirt Return, Bowie Frock

Peguis Child Welfare

CH: Today, Peguis First Nation marked an historic moment: it became the first Indigenous group in Manitoba to take back control of child welfare for its community. Ottawa passed legislation paving the way for the change three years ago. Peguis First Nation Chief Glenn Hudson spoke at a ceremony to mark the agreement with the federal government and the province. Here's part of what he had to say, starting with a tribute to his grandmother, who raised 29 children -- 16 biological and 13 step-children.

SOUNDCLIP

GLENN HUDSON: And she took care of that. She didn't ask government for money. It was all based on love, love for family, love for our children. And, you know, that's… that's what this reflects in terms of going through this process and getting to where we are today. And I can appreciate, you know, the women that are involved in this. It's not, obviously, the warriors that are there, but it's the women, you know, that give birth to children and carry those children for nine months before they're born. And I want to give thanks, you know, to the women that are here -- that are taking part in that because they understand from that point of view what it means to have children and have grandchildren. But also, when it comes down to the community, you know, Peguis is a pretty damn good community to begin in terms of carrying out those protections for our families and our children. And undertaking, you know, this… this process of taking back control. Peguis is known for many firsts in this country. The very first the sign treaty. The very first to, you know, undertake the residential school process. A lot of our members were a part of that at the very beginning. So, there's many firsts. And, you know, we're… we're not afraid. We're not afraid to do what's right. We're not afraid to ensure that we continue to move the path forward. We've got to be bold. We have to be bold and stand up for ourselves and do what we think is right because nobody else can do that for us. And I know this process wasn't quick, but, you know, we are here now, the very first in Manitoba to undertake legislation in honouring our children and families. And that's something, you know, that is long overdue. That's why I say it's about damn time.

CH: Peguis First nation Chief Glenn Hudson speaking earlier today in Manitoba.

[music: ambient]

UBC Shirt Return

Guest: Mark Gibbs

CH: When it comes to the quality of their clothes, some people have a very high standard. Take Mark Gibbs. In 1981 his men's rugby team from Cardiff College in Wales was on a tour of Canada that included games against the University of British Columbia and the University of Victoria. And Mr. Gibbs had such a good time beating the Canadians that he bought a yellow UBC Thunderbirds t-shirt. And he wore it for the next 42 years. Recently, Mark shipped the ratty shirt back to UBC -- along with a letter demanding an exchange, saying he was “very disappointed with the quality.” We reached Mark Gibbs in Swansea, Wales.

NK: Well, Mark, you may know now that the UBC bookstore's return policy is 30 days. This… your… your request came more than 15,000 days [chuckle] after your initial purchase. What did you hope would happen when you sent this along?

MARK GIBBS: What kind of prompted me was I came on tour as a last-minute addition to a rugby tour with my club in Swansea to Canada in May. And I didn't read the itinerary because it was a last-minute thing. I thought, great, we're going to Vancouver. Fantastic. I've always wanted to go back there. So, I took the t-shirt, and I didn't realize it was just a stopover in the airport to fly to Edmonton and then later back Calgary. My intention was quite simple. I just thought I wanted to make people smile. So the package contained… it cost about $16 to send the package. It contained the t-shirt, a really tongue-in-cheek, indignant, self-righteous letter of complaint and a photograph of myself in 1983 on a ferry between Mykonos and Santorini in the Greek islands, and a photograph of myself wearing it just before Christmas. So my whole reasoning for doing this was I just thought I would love to be there to see the guy's face or the girl's face when they open this package.

NK: Yeah.

MG: Look at the t-shirt, read the letter, see the photographs, and they're going to wet themselves. [NK chuckles] And then, they're going to call their work colleagues over and say, will you come and have a look at this. It was a bit of a cheeky stunt. If I got a t-shirt out of it, that would have been a bonus.

NK: So, what about that trip to B.C. back in 1981 was so memorable?

MG: It was incredible. Us guys, we'd been… we'd been on holidays to Europe and, you know, we'rugby tours in Europe. Transatlantic was just incredible. We… to be frank, I didn't have a burger, a cheeseburger, until we came out there. We were so naive. [NK chuckles] And so, a lot of the guys, you know, I mean, we’re away. We’re all 20, 21, 22. And we were all excited because we're in North America. So, you know, we went in the store, and we bought stuff. Several years afterwards, Cardiff, where our college was, you could have been mistaken for thinking you were on the campus of UBC or UVic, right? Because all the guys bought stuff from the store there.

NK: Yeah. How did the Thunderbirds, though, we should ask, measure up to your team back in that… in 1981?

MG: At the time, Canadian rugby was at its peak. They were… the national team was really, really strong, and so was British Columbia. But we were the… we were probably the premier team in the U.K., And they were huge. UBC were massive. And it was a good game. But as I remember, and I've been in contact with a number of my mates who went on that tour, we can't remember the school, but we can remember there was a fair amount of physical disagreements in the match. But I think… I think the final score… we… we won quite handsomely. But, then again, we would have expected to. [NK chuckles] You know, that was our sport. We were… you know, that was… that was who we were at the time.

NK: Did you… do your teammates still have their jerseys?

MG: A couple of the guys have said, you know, I still got some stuff up in the loft. And probably just like me, they… they possibly would have. But, I mean, you know, it is 40… 42 years ago. So, I doubt… I doubt as many of the guys have got anything left, other than the photographs that we took with our little Kodak Instamatic cameras.

NK: Well, now that the UBC bookstore has your old jersey and your letter and the photos that you sent on display, how does that feel?

MG: Well, it is quite… it’s very amusing. It’s very amusing. I mean, it's… everything has got a context, doesn’t it? And I think everybody has had such a poor time over the last three years that anything that makes people smile has got to be worth a shout. So, I can't wait for Steve in the store to send me a photograph of the display.

NK: In his response, Bookstore director Steve Alb, who you’re referring to, said, quote, we wish Mr. Gibbs all the best with his replacement shirt and encourage him to exchange it, hopefully in person, in 2065. [both laugh] Do you think you’ll send them… you'll send them another shirt in, you know, four-plus decades?

MG: I was very amused. It's lovely. It is really cool when you meet somebody who's on exactly the same wavelength as you in terms of sense of humour. And I've got to say Matt Ramsey as well, the head of media for UBC, I mean, he was similarly tongue in cheek and dry when, you know, in our communications, but I've put all of this stuff, including the photographs, the original letter that Steve sent back to me, I put on a word document together with the email exchanges, and I sent it to my mates, not just in the U.K., but in Boston and New Zealand. And the response, they are just killing themselves laughing because they know me.

NK: [chuckling] Yeah.

MG: And they know that actually, this couldn't have got any better because there are so many people having a giggle, simply because I took something out of the loft [both laugh] and wrote a letter. Yeah, good, good fun. It's just… it's just what it's about, isn't it?

NK: [laughing] I'm very glad you have such wonderful memories of Canada on not just one but two trips and that you're representing UBC out there in Swansea. Thank you, Mark.

MG: Oh, you’re so welcome. So welcome.

CH: Mark Gibbs is a former rugby player for Cardiff College. We reached him in Swansea, Wales.

[music: Spanish guitar]

Green Comet

CH: Right now, for the first time since the Ice Age, about 50,000 years ago, a green comet is currently making its way past the Earth. Tim Doucette has captured dazzling images of that comet. He's an amateur astronomer, and the owner/operator of the Deep Sky Eye Observatory in Quinan, Nova Scotia. His website -- Deep Sky Eye dot com -- describes him as "a legally blind amateur astronomer." Which is not contradictory -- because Mr. Doucette has something of a superpower when he looks up at the night sky.

SOUNDCLIP

TIM DOUCETTE: I was born blind. I was born with congenital cataracts and was left with about 10 per cent of my eyesight as a child. When I became an adolescent, I had to go on additional surgery because of the cataracts had returned. And shortly after that, I started noticing some side effects from the surgery that I had. I didn't really understand what it was until I hit my thirties. You know, 15, 20… 15 years later or so, when I went stargazing, my wife had bought me a telescope. And she wanted me to kind of get out of the house because I was playing too many video games at the time. [JD chuckles] You know, she was trying to find me a hobby. And she knew I was interested in space, and she knew I was discouraged as a child, you know, having a telescope and not being able to see very much and all that sort of thing. And went stargazing with my friends from Moncton at the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada there. And my friends… one of my friends said, look through my telescope, basically tell me what you see. And then, I described what I was looking at as a, you know, a doughnut in the… in the telescope and, you know, a couple of points of light inside and what looked like a pool of water. And he's like, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. You shouldn’t be able to see that with this size of telescope. I said, well, what do you mean? I'm the blind one here. And after doing a little bit of investigation and research, it turns out that the lenses of your eyes act as a natural filter for ultraviolet light, to protect your eyes from the dangers of the sun.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Huh!

TD: And it turns out that mine were removed at the age of 16 because of the cataracts.

JD: So, you don't have that filter. So your f-stop is open too. Like your camera, you said f-1.9. Like, your eyes are… you’re open.

TD: Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of like a cat's eyes almost.

JD: That is amazing.

TD: And looking through the telescope, I'm looking at an object. In certain cases, certain objects I will see better than other folks looking through a telescope because my eye is actually catching more of that light, and my brain's interpreting it in most cases either as a purple colour or as a… a grey, depending on how bright the object is.

CH: Tim Doucette of Quinan, Nova Scotia spoke to former As It Happens co-host Jeff Douglas, who is now host of the CBC Halifax program Mainstreet. Tomorrow, the green comet he's been observing will reach the closest point to Earth on its orbit of the Sun. And right here on As It Happens, Nil will speak with Bryce Bolin, the astronomer who discovered the comet about a year ago.

[music: outerspace beats]

FOA: Peeps Obit

CH: He was the Henry Ford of gooey, sickly-sweet, marshmallow baby chickens. In fact, you probably would have never heard of the Easter confectionary known as Peeps, if it hadn't been for Bob Born. Mr. Born revolutionized the production line at Just Born, the family-owned company that makes the squishy candy. Bob Born died on Sunday. He was 98. It was his engineering prowess that led to a major breakthrough: he cut the time it took to make a run of Peeps from 27 hours to just six minutes. According to the company, Mr. Born's changes to the factory in the 1950's became the, quote, "Basis for the current marshmallow depositing systems.” Unquote. So, it seems, his legacy will live on. America's love of peeps -- which also now come in the shape of bunnies and other animals -- also led to the annual Peep diorama competition. Back in 2013, our former host, Carol Off, spoke to Leslie Brown, the winner of that year's contest.

SOUNDCLIP

LESLIE BROWN: After a lot of thinking, we came up with the idea since the demise of the Twinkie and Hostess brand, the theme of it was “Peeps Mourn Their Peeps, Twinkies rest… Twinkie Rest in Peace”.

CO: [chuckling] Okay, so what does it look like?

LB: Well, it's… it's actually like two parts. There's one half that's the church where there's actually being a funeral happening. And the next… next to it is the cemetery. So in the diorama of the church part, we have… we have Peeps… I'm the sewer of the group between the two of us. So, I make… I actually make clothes for them. So, I put them in hats and dresses and veils. And then, I make male Peeps so they look like they've got on suits and ties. And we had a coffin that we used like a craft box, and we had it cut in half so you could open half of it. And I went on eBay and I brought… brought a Twinkie, and we lined it with satin. And then, we put the Twinkie in it. And then, we decorated the church, complete with stained glass windows that have… actually have little… the Peeps in them in the window… the design of the stained glass window. And then, we had… we figured we had to have a minister. And at that point we thought, well, we have to have the pope. So, the Peep pope is actually officiating over this… this funeral.

NK: How much time did you spend working on this?

LB: Probably about 35 to 40 hours between the two of us. [CO chuckles] We would do things at home. And then we came together one weeked and just really… just really we worked. Since I work in a high school, we used one of the art rooms and so we spread out. So, probably about seven or eight hours each day on a Saturday and Sunday. And we finished it Sunday.

CO: Did you ever wonder about that? Did you ever think… stop and think, what am I doing? Make… dressing… putting… making clothes for Peeps.

LB: Well, it's… it's such a funky thing to do, but it's so funny when you're doing it because I would… I actually made some of the clothes at home. And I'd show them to my daughter and we'd laugh, and she's like, oh, we really need a hat. So, I'd go and make a hat of some sort. It's a little bit… it is… it is a crazy thing to do, but once it comes together, they're so cute.

CO: What was your competition? Tell us some of the other Peep dioramas that were there.

LB: There was one that was a scene out of Zero Dark 30. There was another one that was talking about congress and its… you know, its issues right now. The division in the congress.

CO: That was… that one’s called “DisPeepable Congress”.

LB: Yes. And that one's really cute.

CO: It’s very funny because I went online. I was looking at some of these. And there was one of Mitt Romney. And… and it's called “Binders Full of Peeps”.

LB: Yes. And the big thing is just try and stay current and stay with a current theme or something that's very classic.

CO: Now, how many people submit their dioramas to this competition?

LB: This year, there were 650.

CO: Oh my gosh!

LB: Yeah, I'd be curious if this was the biggest one. I didn't think last year was that big. But this seemed to be one of the bigger ones.

CO: That's extraordinary. Is there a prize?

LB: I think it's a $100 gift certificate.

CO: So, you're not doing this for the money?

LB: Oh heavens, no.

CO: You're doing this for the laughs, I think.

LB: It's the laughs, the fun of putting it together and the competition of coming up with that great idea that they recognize and appreciate.

CH: That was Carol talking to Leslie Brown, the winner of the annual Peeps diorama contest, in 2013. Bob Born, who revolutionized the production line for the candy company that produces Peeps, died on Sunday at age 98.

[music: instrumental]

Bowie Frock

Guest: Lucie Whitmore

CH: David Bowie made great music. And -- except for some very puffy hair in the nineties -- he looked great doing it. Now, a British museum is on the hunt for one of the style icon's old frocks -- along with other famous items of clothing, worn by famous names from The Beatles to Sean Connery. The Museum of London Docklands has issued a public appeal to track down all these pieces, and others, that have disappeared to parts unknown. The hope is to include them in an upcoming exhibition, called "Fashion City: How Jewish Londoners Shaped Global Style”. Lucie Whitmore is the fashion curator at the Museum of London.

NK: Well, Lucy, let's start with David Bowie, because David Bowie. Let's start with that dress. Maybe somebody listening has it hanging in their wardrobe right now. Describe what it looks like for us.

LUCIE WHITMORE: David Bowie actually wore two dresses by this designer named Mr. Fish. And the one that he wore on the album of The Man Who Sold the World is a kind of three-quarter-length A-line skirt. It's got a kind of wide lapel, a floral pattern, some really interesting kind of frogged braid fastenings on the front. And he wore it for a number of photoshoots. And I think it really shows, you know, his connection with the designer. Mr. Fish, who was so famous for putting men is dresses, putting men in skirts. And David Bowie, who was somebody who, you know, played with his performance and gender as well was a really natural fit for… for that designer.

NK: Yeah. And tell me a little bit more about about Mr. Fish.

LW: Yeah, absolutely. So, Mr. Fish, was… he self-described himself as a Jewish lad from Wood Green, which is in an area of North London. He was born in 1940 and he didn't have any kind of formal training as a designer, but he worked his way up through different shops in London. He started out cleaning the counters in a department store on Shaftesbury Avenue in the West End. And he was apprenticed as a shirt maker. He went on to work for a very traditional, well-established shirt makers called Turnbull and Astor. And whilst he was there, he really kind of changed that brand, really innovative and brought in kind of colour and really playful silhouettes. And while he was working there, he was approached by a funder to set up his own brand, which he did. And this brand was and was based on Clifford Street, which is quite near London’s famous Savile Row, which, you know, is famed for kind of traditional menswear. But Mr. Fish was very playful, so he did unusual things on traditional men's garments. So, he took the tie and he turned it into the kipper tie, which is a kind of wider, more playful shape and really interesting patterns and textiles. He obviously carried on doing shirts. And some of the people he made shirts for include Sean Connery and Michael Caine. And then, he… and then, he did dresses and skirt for men. And so, all these… all these really creative kind of different… different types of garments that you might not have expected.

NK: It's… for you, clearly, it seems… and the museum, not just about finding this one dress or a few garments, but about also turning the lens on… on a group of designers, Jewish designers, at that time. Why did you want to do that now?

LW: Yeah, that is absolutely the intention of this exhibition and this project is to celebrate how much Jewish Londoners have done for London's fashion industry. So, I have been working on a research project for the last few years with my research partner from the University of Leeds, and we have really gone about with the intention of saying, okay, we know about Jewish tailors in the East End of London. That's kind of a thing that… that, you know, people might have heard about. But actually the Jewish contribution to London fashion is so much more dynamic and broad. And we have East End, but also the West End. And we have, you know, Jewish people designing for couture, high-end fashion and, you know, swinging sixties Carnaby Street youth fashion and millinery and all these different stories. So we really wanted to… to acknowledge that and celebrate that contribution. And the exhibition is going to be taking place at the Museum of London Docklands, which is an area of London that's very firmly rooted in this story. That is where a lot of Jewish immigrants coming from, particularly Eastern Europe, that might be the first place that they arrived in London.

NK: We talked about the Bowie dress, but you are, as we've said, looking for other items. But what are some of the ones that you're really keen to get your hands on?

LW: So on the subject of Mr. Fish, there is one other item I would love to find, which is the robe that he designed for Muhammad Ali. And Ali wore them for the “Rumble in the Jungle” fight in 1974, there were two copies of this robe made. I believe that they are both in North America currently, although I haven't been able to track them down. And that would be a fantastic piece to find. There are a few other designers as well that we've kind of named. And we put out this call out. You know, we have fantastic collections here at the museum, and these are the… these are the sort of cherry on the cake pieces that we would love to add. And there are other designers like Cecil G, who is a really important designer in London, and kind of changing the way that men shop, to men dress. And we know that he dressed the Beatles, and in particular John Lennon. And so, that's another piece that we'd really love to find. And then there's Otto Lucas, who was a milliner, and he was… he came from Germany in the 1930s to London, and he was so successful in his export business. There was a quote in the news at the time saying there is not one of the 49 states of America where you can't buy an Otto Lucas hat. And we know that he at some point dressed Wallis Simpson, the Duchess of Windsor, and Greta Garbo. So we'd love to find any pieces that he made for them. If anyone has one of those, you know, notting around by any chance.

NK: What kind of response have you received so far?

LW: We've had a really wonderful response to our call out in terms of real kind of enthusiasm for the project, and particularly from people for whom this is a personal story, which it is. A lot of a lot of people in London will recognize this as a personal story. And we've had some really nice messages from people whose families are involved in a couple of businesses. There were in the exhibition people who may have worked for a couple of these designers. We haven't found any of the objects on our wish list quite yet, but we've had some good leads.

NK: Well, people are checking their closets. Our listeners right now, I can… I can hear them doing it. Or planning their trips to… to visit London. Lucy, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

LW: Brilliant. Thank you so much.

NK: Take care.

CH: Lucie Whitmore is the fashion curator at the Museum of London. We reached her in London, England. And if you have information about any of these items please email: fashioncity@museumoflondon.org.uk.

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January 31, 2023 Episode Transcript

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