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The AIH transcript for January 30, 2023

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is "As It Happens."

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

NK: A change that could change lives. Tomorrow, a pilot project to decriminalize some drugs will begin in British Columbia. Tonight, the province's minister of mental health and addictions tells us it is an important step, but not the only one to address the overdose crisis.

CH: Screen saver. First, Lithuanians crowdfunded to buy attack drones for Ukraine. Now, they've set their sights on some state of the art radar to protect civilians from attack.

NK: New country. Old Fears. Yazidi refugees are concerned Canadians accused of working with ISIS could be coming back to this country -- and are not convinced they'll actually face justice here.

CH: Cereal offender The band OK Go has been called OK Go for 25 years -- so they're not okay when a serial company names a product OK Go and then sues the band OK Go over the name. OK Go.

NK: Team player. The late Hazel McCallion was famously known as Hurricane Hazel, the formidable long-time mayor of Mississauga, Ontario. But as we will hear, she was also a huge champion of women's hockey -- and even played professionally herself.

CH: And… a clean getaway. She's the most famous decluttering expert in the world. But now that she has three kids, Marie Kondo says her house is a mess and she doesn't care.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that’s very impressed that she's airing her dirty laundry.

Part 1: B.C. Decriminalization, Hazel McCallion Obit, OK Go Lawsuit

B.C. Decriminalization

Guest: Jennifer Whiteside

CH: Tomorrow, a first-of-its-kind, three-year pilot project will begin in Canada: in British Columbia, possession of small amounts of certain illegal drugs by adults will be decriminalized. Last year, the federal government granted B.C. an exemption from the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. At a press conference today, the B.C. government confirmed that that exemption covers opioids, crack and powder cocaine, methamphetamine, and MDMA. And that it will not apply in some locations, including airports and K-to-12 school grounds. Since 2016, more than 11,000 British Columbians have died from using toxic drugs. Jennifer Whiteside is B.C.'s minister of mental health and addictions. We reached her in Vancouver.

NK: Minister Whiteside, what will happen tomorrow if a police officer finds someone in possession of illegal drugs?

JENNIFER WHITESIDE: Well, tomorrow, our exemption comes into effect. And in effect, there are certain drugs that are decriminalized for the purposes of those individuals who are carrying 2.5 grams or less for personal use. So, what this means is that that interaction between the police officer and the individual will not... not be one in which there will be a possibility of an arrest or having drugs confiscated. That will be an opportunity for that police officer to provide that individual with information about local resources available for care and support, rather than sending that individual down… down a criminal.

NK: But it won't be mandatory for them to seek that report… that support, rather. It’s just a suggestion?

JW: No, it's… it's a suggestion. We've been able to work directly with law enforcement. And of the 9,000 or so frontline police officers we have in British Columbia, about two-thirds have already completed the education module that explains what decriminalization is and the important role that frontline law enforcement have in changing up that story from one of its, you know, the individual is a criminal to the individual is a person who needs potentially access to some care and support from our healthcare system. And let's try and help them in that regard.

NK: You know very well how deep the overdose crisis is in British Columbia. I know this is part of trying to resolve that, but these are still toxic street drugs, whether or not people are being criminalized for possessing them. So how, Minister, will this help stop people from dying?

JW: Well, I mean, this is… decriminalization is one tool in our toolbox to address the toxic drug crisis. And it is a tool that has been called for... for some time, really, by all of our partners, including… including law enforcement. So, it's an important step that we're taking today to really address the shame and stigma and fear associated with drug use and try to change that story into one that really recognizes that there is a person at the heart of this who may need access to… to resources and to supports. And we want to use every possible opportunity we can to connect those individuals with… with care and support. This move in and of itself, you know, is not going to be the one thing that solves the toxic drug crisis, but it's one of the things that will be very… one of the moves that will be very important in addressing stigma and fear that… that may well prevent someone from using alone. And what we do know in British Columbia is that… from the coroner is that 52 per cent of people who die from toxic drug poisoning are using alone.

NK: There are criticisms, Minister, as you know, on several different fronts. I'll start with the 2.5-gram limit. There are some who are saying that limit is… is too low and too arbitrary.

JW: Yeah. I mean, and I understand. I've heard… I've heard those those concerns expressed. Our application to the federal government made a request for a 4.5-gram exemption. The federal government came back with… with a 2.5 exemption. And certainly, that is one of the… one of the… the elements of this that we will be watching very closely, and monitoring to see how that is… how that's playing out across the province, particularly for those individuals in rural and remote communities.

NK: There are those who say that this process has unfolded far too slowly. That… that this move should have come many, many years ago and are asking, you know, why it took so long?

JW: I think that there is no question that as we started to see the toxic drug crisis really take off in 2016, 2017, the work that our government did to create a ministry of mental health and addictions and to put a put a focus on on this important work, to pull together all of the partners and stakeholders who… who… who are connected to this issue to work on finding solutions to ramp up harm reduction services to ramp up our approach to trying to destigmatize drug use. All of that important work we did in the early years of our original mandate from 2017 to 2018 actually did start to have a very big impact. And we saw toxic drug poisoning deaths decrease in 2019 for the first time in several years. What happened in 2020 was that we ran… we had a global pandemic. COVID-19, no question, has really bedevilled our… our efforts on this public health emergency. And we are working very hard now to try to regain the ground that we… that we lost due to COVID.

NK: Six people a day are dying in the province.

JW: Six people a day, yeah. Yeah.

NK: It's such a horrific statistic. It's not just a statistic. It's people's lives.

JW: No, they’re people.

NK: As you know. You know this very well. You said this is… this is one piece, one part of the toolkit. But what are you doing to address the problem of the toxic drug supply that's still out there?

JW: Yeah. I mean, we are working very closely, again, with all of our partners, with… with law enforcement on the enforcement side of things. We are working with… with… with frontline physicians who are providing care for people who are… who are using drugs. And we are building out our prescribed safe supply approach to try to separate people from the toxic drug supply, as well as, importantly, building out a system of treatment and care that… that connects people to care and supports that they… that they need, you know, over 300 additional treatment beds since 2017. We now have an excess of 3,200. In the province, we are expanding our child and youth mental health resources. We are expanding counselling services, all of this work. We have to do all of these things. It's no one thing. We need to do all of these things to try to turn the tide on the toxic drug crisis.

NK: Minister Whiteside, thank you.

JW: Thank you so much. Take care.

NK: You too.

JW: Bye-bye.

CH: That was B.C.'s Minister of Mental Health and Addictions, Jennifer Whiteside. She's in Vancouver.

[music: ambient]

Hazel McCallion Obit

Guest: Fran Rider

CH: When it came to elections, Hazel McCallion skated circles around the competition. She broke into politics in 1978 when it was still a man's game. And she had staying power like almost nobody else: she was one of the longest-serving mayors ever -- leading the city of Mississauga, Ontario until she was 93. Hazel McCallion died on the weekend. She was 101 years old. She was a guest on As It Happens in 2006 when she was running for her eleventh term. Here she is, speaking with our former host, Carol Off.

SOUNDCLIP

CAROL OFF: Mayor McCallion, are you ever going to retire?

HAZEL MCCALLION: Well, I don't know. [CO chuckles] I don't think there is such a thing as a retirement age. It's how… how your health is and how you feel, and how passionate you are about the job you're doing.

CO: Now, but there must be some other kind of title they can have for you. Maybe they can just sort of coronate you instead of --

HM: [chuckling] Oh, no, I love the job, and I work very hard at it, and I enjoy it. I think you have to like what you do. I like what I do.

CO: Tell me how you got the nickname Hurricane Hazel?

HM: [chuckle] I don't know. My dog is even called Hurricane. [laughing] I got a German shepherd, and she's 12 years old, and she's called Hurricane.

CO: But you don't know why you're called Hurricane Hazel?

HM: Well, I guess I move around pretty quite a bit. [both chuckle] I don't think much grass grows under my feet.

CH: Hazel McCallion on As It Happens in 2006. Politics was obviously a major passion. But it wasn't her only passion. She also played hockey -- and she was a vocal champion of the women's game. Fran Rider is the president of the Ontario Women's Hockey Association. She's also a longtime friend of Hazel McCallion. We reached Ms. Rider in Innisfil, Ontario.

NK: Fran, Hazel McCallion there talking in 2006 about how not a lot of grass grew under her feet. Does that ring true for you? Was she the same way when she laced a pair of skates?

FRAN RIDER: Oh, it absolutely rings true. And one thing that's interesting. When Hazel last laced up her skates in 1940 and was a speedy centre with the Montreal Kik scoring, their goals were the two sisters on Defence. She was the star of the game. Unfortunately, she didn't have hockey opportunities when she moved to Toronto. But when she found out that women's hockey was alive and well in the 1970s, she started working with us, and I'm proud to call her a colleague and a friend very close to 50 years.

NK: If people know Hazel McCallion, they do know her as Hurricane Hazel, as we heard there, and as a longtime mayor. But this… this involvement, this deep connection with hockey and influence over the women's game may be a surprise to some of our… our listeners. You mentioned she played professionally in Montreal. What did she tell you about that time, and what it meant to her?

FR: Oh, she loved hockey. And as a… as a young girl growing up in Port Daniel on the Gaspésie coast, she basically… it was shinny back then. But when she moved to Montreal, she saw an advertisement for the Montreal Kik for tryouts for their team. It was Kik Cola, K-I-K. And she immediately signed up, tried out, made the team and became their star, was paid $5 a game to play centre, which was a pretty good wage back in those days and absolutely loved the game. So, one of the things in Canada… you know, hockey has been recognized as Canada's game for years and years. But there's tremendous number of girls and women who have shared that passion and not been able to realize the true opportunity as participant. And that's one thing that Hazel was, was a participant when she could be. And an advocate and supporter as well. And that's made a difference. And now, we're seeing incredible support behind our national women's team as it brings gold medals to our country at world championships and Olympics.

NK: And the hockey world is certainly paying tribute to Hazel McCallion. Hayley Wickenheiser remembers Ms. McCallion giving her pep talks and meeting the Canadian women's team at the airport when they came home from the Olympics. What did it mean to her to see fellow women who were hockey players doing so well?

FR: She loved it. She would have wanted to be on that ice with them. That's the only thing she didn't like. Certainly watching the games with her in the Mississauga… 2000, Mississauga hosted the Women's World Championships. And we were down to goals in the third period, and Jayna Hefford came through and tied it up, and we won it in overtime. But I think Hazel was playing from the box she was watching in. She was pacing up and down that box. And I know she would have scored if Team Canada had given her skates and put her on the ice, and she absolutely would have won in any shootout.

NK: Clearly, a lot of athletic prowess, a talented hockey player, as you've said, but she would really try just about anything, right? What else did she get up to?

FR: Oh, she did everything. She went to France, and she ziplined, I think it was 3000 feet or something. The thing that scared her the most was riding the donkey up the hill because the donkey kept stopping and looking over the cliff. You know, she… she.. I was blessed to have her as a friend and up at the cottage quite a bit. We had her on a kayak for the first time at, I think it was 97 or 98, got her on the tube behind the boat, you know, on a snowmobile, on a Seadoo. Just… she… she loved to try things. And as soon as she… she stopped, she just said, I loved it. I had a great time. And she truly lived life to the fullest. She was game for anything. Some of the things sort of scared us that she wanted to do, but she excelled at them. She skated into her nineties, you know, always wanted the skates on, carried her skates with her everywhere she went. Her one disappointment was she never had her skates at a time that she could skate the Rideau Canal. And I think at 102, had she had her skates in the car and been in Ottawa, she would have done that. And she did have a really rich and amazing life. But, in my opinion, it was too soon. She had so much more to offer. Hazel never retired. She moved from the mayor of Mississauga into so many other roles. And she had an office in our office building. She continued to support hockey, and she continued to have an incredible vision for a better world. And, you know, over the past few weeks, there was a lot of very powerful people that came in to see her, and she had some great visits with them and had no shortage of ideas to make things better in Mississauga and in Ontario and in the country.

NK: What kinds of things did she want to do? What adventures did she want to do that… that scared you guys?

FR: The one adventure that scared me the most, I think, was when she was at the cottage. And a seaplane taxied into the beach, and we walked down to see what was going on. Just it was an exciting thing to do. Everyone on the beach was asking the pilot to take them for a ride, and he said, no, I don't give anybody rides in my plane. And as we walked across the beach, he saw Hazel. He said, Hazel. Hazel McCallion, do you want to come up on my plane? And she said, yes. And I believe she was 99 at the time. She… she had to climb around the pontoon and climb into the seat, which she did very easily. My fear was, at the end of the day, as I saw the plane taxiing off, I had no clue who the pilot was, no clue what his name was. And I thought, okay, she's gone up with this --

NK: Stranger.

FR: Nice-sounding man in an airplane, and I truly hope she comes back.

NK: And she did. She did.

FR: She did.

NK: Fortunately. What was she like as a friend to you?

FR: Oh, she's my inspiration. She… she was my strength. I believed in her, and she believed in me. She kept telling me, you don't push yourself enough. And I was quite happy to push her because she was so amazing, and she'd be there at your side every time you needed her. Day or night, she was there, and there's no words to express the loss, but she would want people to go on thinking of the wins, not the losses and the things she had… had given and continued to do. And anybody that ever met Hazel has her in her heart. And if they put their hand to the chest, they will feel her there. They will feel her warmth and her strength. And that's what she would want. And that is the gift that every single person that was touched by her can give back to her, even in her passing, the fact that she made their life stronger and better and that they're stronger people because of her.

NK: That's a lovely tribute. Fran, I'm very sorry for your loss but very thankful that we've had a chance to speak. You ladies accomplished quite a lot together. So, thank you.

FR: Thank you so very much.

CH: Fran Rider was a close friend of former Mississauga mayor -- and hockey player -- Hazel McCallion. Hazel McCallion died on the weekend at the age of 101.

[music: “I Won’t Let You Down” by OK Go/Indie rock]

OK Go Lawsuit

Guest: Damian Kulash

CH: This is OK Go -- whose name might make you think of an elaborate Rube Goldberg machine filling an entire warehouse. Or of four indie-rock dudes in snazzy outfits doing a choreographed dance routine on four treadmills. You're thinking of OK Go the band. And those are just two of the many creative music videos they've made since they formed in the late nineties. But now, the name they've made for themselves has hit a snag. The Post Food Company has sued OK Go -- because it has an instant cereal product called OK Go! The weird thing is, though, the band called OK Go has been around since 1998. The cereal called OK Go! is brand-new. And yet, Post is suing the band in an attempt to block any legal action over the name. Damian Kulash is the lead singer of OK Go. We reached him in Los Angeles.

NK: Damian, 25 years with this band and this band name. Fifteen years you've had the name OK Go trademarked. So, what did you think when you heard Post Foods was suing you and your band for your name?

DAMIAN KULASH: I mean, it would be… it would be funny if it weren't so annoying. You know, it… it's like… it really seemed almost like a joke at first. I'm a musician and a filmmaker, and that's what I like doing and what I want to be doing. And they have infinite lawyers and resources and so forth to deal with this. I don't, and I really don't feel like having to cover our rear ends all the time to make sure some… you know, a giant corporation isn’t coming for our name.

NK: Do you think that… that this lawsuit was sort of a pre-emptive act by the company? That they are trying to block your band from taking legal action over that name?

DK: Yeah, yeah. Definitely. Like, we were notified in the fall that they were applying for a trademark, and so we reached out, being like, what's going on? And, you know, we had to then, of course, hire a lawyer and figure that all out. And my assumption is it shows that they… that they know we have a claim and just want to bully us out of making it in the first place. But we'll see.

NK: Your management indicated to us you did have lawyers contact them initially over the name OK Go! You talked to them back in September. What were you hoping would come of that at that point?

DK: We were hoping they'd pick a different name. I mean, it's the law that we have to… we have to send a letter saying that's our trademark. Please don't use it. So… and that has to come from a lawyer and so forth. So… so, we did that. Otherwise, our trademark is unenforceable. So… so, we sent that. But the upshot was, please just pick a different name. Like you… you obviously know who our band is because you've… you know, we've worked together before. And… and you know that a lot of our fans are young kids, and we do a lot of educational work. So, like, it's a very similar group. And you know that our… our bread and butter tends to be making these very elaborate videos with corporate partners. So like, you know, it's sort of been the thing we're known for as are very, very these, like, really ambitious video projects that are way outside the realm of what a rock band can normally do. And so, we usually collaborate with big brands to do them. And we’ve collaborated with Google and Sony and… and I mean Chevy. We made… we made a Super Bowl commercial for Chevy. So, it's like they know that we're… that this is our thing. What we do is work with brands. And so we said that. We just said like, you know, we… of course, we don't make cereal, but you know that what we do is… is collaborate with brands, so please don't do this. And they sued us.

NK: And you did work together with Post in 2011. At least some people obviously were aware of the band name at that time. Do you think that was the fuel for this that they decided to rip off your name?

DK: I couldn't speculate. I… I think that a lot of brands around 10 years ago saw what we were doing online and told their ad agency, get me something like that. Because we have had the very unlikely high success rate for making things that… that a lot of people watch. And we were doing that at a… at a very… in a very consistent way 10 years ago. And so, anybody who wanted to move into the domain of having cool stuff on the Internet, I mean, we were in… we were in every mood board from every ad agency. And I can't say that they specifically reached out to steal our name, but they clearly knew who we were and wanted something like that and like that. Like, all the kids now, I mean, there's no way that they… they didn't Google it and see that the first hundred things that come up are all about our band. Like, they knew what they were doing. I don't know that they set out to do it, but they knew what they were doing, you know? And it's an interesting thing. Like, this has caused me to do a little Googling, of course. And, you know, when… when Snoop Dogg decided he wanted to release the cereal, the cereal companies sued him because the name was too similar to a cereal. So clearly, the cereal industry believes that… that there would be confusion if a… if a musician and a cereal shared a name, right? And when a band called Green Jello in the nineties came into existence, you know, another processed sugary food product sued Green Jello for their name because they… they said there's no way you can have a band name and… and this food product share a name because that's… that's causing confusion. So, though neither of those cases were from this exact company, it's clear that, like, if the shoe were on the other foot, like if we decided to name our band, you know, Honey Bunches of Oats, just about you can be sure they'd be suing us. So, you know, it's sort of ridiculous, the idea that like this is a space that's uncontested and they should just own it, you know?

NK: And just before we let you go, Damian, where did the name come from for you and your bandmates?

DK: Tim, the bassist, and I went to an arts camp when we were little kids. That's where we met when we were 11 years old. And we had an art teacher, who… whose main instruction was these sort of psychedelic musings like touch the paper and touch the still life and draw the difference, man. And then he'd sort of… he'd sit there and be like, OK, you got it. OK, OK, OK Go. And we always thought it was so funny, and it was like a… just an inside joke for 10 years after that, until we started a band one day and called it OK Go.

NK: Damian, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

DK: Thanks so much for having me. It was a pleasure.

NK: Likewise.

CH: Damian Kulash is the lead singer of OK Go… the band, not the cereal. We reached him in Los Angeles.

[music: electronic]

Messy Marie Kondo

CH: Since we first met her, Marie Kondo has had one simple message.

SOUNDCLIP

[music: airy royalty free music]

MARIE KONDO: Get ready to experience the life changing magic of tidying up.

[sound: a record scratch]

CH: Oh no! I guess there's some dust on that Marie Kondo LP. But you know what’s weird? Is that record-scratch sound is actually appropriate. Because Ms. Kondo is coming clean. Between her best-selling books, her Netflix series, and the wide range of tasteful junk you can buy on her website and clutter your house with, she has made a tidy sum. And her approach to tidying -- the KonMari method, as it's grandly known -- is known around the world. Rule Number 6 of which you probably know.

SOUNDCLIP

MK: So, how do you choose what to keep? It is most important part of the KonMari method to choose the item that spark joy for you.

[sound: a record scratch]

CH: What is wrong with that record player? But you know, actually, that scratch is still thematically apt. Because for years, Marie Kondo has advocated keeping only those things that spark joy for you. But now, she's easing off on that policy, because of three things that spark joy for her: her children. She had her third in 2021. And as she told the Washington Post, they have shifted her perspective somewhat. For years, she kept her house as immaculate as you'd imagine. But now, she says, quote: "I have kind of given up on that in a good way for me. Now I realize what is important to me is enjoying spending time with my children at home." Unquote. I'm sure that, for her, embracing mess means allowing one magazine to sit on the wrong end table. But it's great that she's talking openly about it. I mean, she could have swept it under the rug. But welcome, Ms. Kondo, to the world the rest of us live in. Congratulations are in disorder.

[music: Jhouse]

Part 2: Lithuanian Radar, Yazidi/Syria Repatriation Critic

Lithuanian Radar

Guest: Andrius Tapinas

CH: In the first few months of the war in Ukraine, Lithuanian civilians did what many governments wouldn't. Through a nationwide crowdfunding campaign, they managed to buy a high-tech Bayraktar combat drone for the fight. Now, the floodgates of military donations have opened. But Lithuanians are upping the ante again, trying to raise 10 million euros to buy sophisticated radar for Ukraine. The radar will be able to spot Russian air attacks and protect civilian targets. Andrius Tapinas is a Lithuanian TV presenter who's organizing the fundraising campaign. We reached him in Vilnius.

NK: Andrius, since you put out this new call for four radar systems, how have Lithuanians responded?

ANDRIUS TAPINAS: Absolutely enthusiastically. So, we have an amazing reaction. Now, we are, as we speak with you, at the end of day one of our new activity. And we have already broken €1 million mark. So, I think that's a great amount of money raised by… by the nation.

NK: Who is donating?

AT: Right now, as usual donating… we have lots of small donations from €5 to €200. And also, we have several big donations from €20,000 and €100,000 by the businesses. So, I think we will have some nice mix of schoolchildren donating to the euros and the business tycoons donating hundreds of thousands because our goal is… is quite lofty. We expect, we hope, to reach €10 million by 24th of February, which is anniversary of the war.

NK: After your last campaign to buy that attack drone, when did you decide that… that radar systems were what were necessary to help the Ukrainian military right now?

AT: Right now, it was a joint decision by all of the four of the biggest NGOs in Lithuania who work with Ukraine that the radars, the modern radars provided by Israel, would be a huge help to Ukraine because, as you all know, the rocket strikes continue. They hit civil buildings. They hit infrastructure. They kill innocent people. So, the more… of course, Ukraine has radars of their own, but the more radars we have, the better we will be prepared to fend off the attacks from Russia.

NK: Yeah, just tell our listeners how these radar units will work and how they will help.

AT: Well, this is, as I said, very modern radars from Israel. And, well, if there is a country in the world which knows very well how to defend their airspace, it's Israel. And the good thing about these radars is that they are very fine-tuned. So, we can catch small drones, such as an Iranian Saheed flying, as well as… as big, lethal rockets flying in. The range is quite long, up to 50 kilometres. So, the such radars will give Ukrainian air defence time to prepare and time to better understand what kind of threat is approaching.

NK: And since you were last on our… on our program, in all of those months, you know that Western governments have started stepping up even more and… and committing much more military equipment to Ukraine, including tanks, as we know, just in the last week or so. So, I wonder why you still want to raise money, you know, crowdsource this, raise money from… from individuals and not just focus on lobbying governments to supply this kind of equipment?

AT: Well, I think the work is being done by all the sides. And our diplomats, especially the nations who are supporting Ukraine from day one, are doing a great job. I mean, Baltic countries, Polish diplomats, leaders of our government are doing a great job in working with our Western partners. And we see the fruits of this labour. But also, wherever the public, the common people donate the money to… to help Ukraine to defend itself, it sends a strong signal. It sends a strong signal through all the Western media for all the Ukrainian media that the people of Lithuania, the people of Baltic countries still support Ukraine very much, still are willing to part with their money in order to defend it. And this can also be such an impulse for our diplomats to provide this as an example to their colleagues in Western Europe. And maybe buy radar also like us. It did its part, like a small, small part, in convincing the Western governments to provide more weapons to Ukraine.

NK: Is the Bayraktar drone still active and operating in Ukraine? The one that you supplied?

AT: Yeah, I have, like, latest news. It was before Christmas, provided by the minister of defence of Ukraine, that it's still operational, it's still doing its operational tasks. So, we are very happy to… to… to… to get this information.

NK: So, what's next for you and the others who have organized this? Is the plan to continue to try to buy more equipment?

AT: As… as usual, we're going to rest a little bit. We're gonna ask for people to get some new wages, to get some more money. And I'm pretty sure that there'll be a new idea coming out. We are still trying. It is still, like, this crazy idea, this crazy dream of crowdfunding fighter jets for Ukraine. It still sounds like crazy, but you never know.

NK: Why crowdfund for military equipment and not humanitarian assistance?

AT: Well, humanitarian assistance is being provided on a daily basis by Lithuanian people. And, for example, through all the festive periods of the same NGOs, the working into the projects, let's warm the Ukraine up, providing electrical generators, providing batteries, and it's still going on. So, for example, one of the leaders of our NGOs are currently in Kyiv with the new humanitarian aid. This big fundraiser for radar doesn't mean that we are going… we are stopping doing any humanitarian work or providing the medicine to the hospitals and so on. So, we see it as a… as a base help, as a… as a must-do help. And this one is like a cherry on top.

NK: I know you're not a military expert, but clearly you're… you're… you're very closely involved and watching what is unfolding with this conflict. How much longer do you think it will go on?

AT: I think this is the most difficult question that you have. And, unfortunately, I have stopped listening to the military experts who they're forecasting a fast ending of this war. Three weeks ago, I would have suggested, but I see no end in the near future. However, the breakthrough in providing the heavy artillery and tanks for Ukraine may be a signal that we can see this war ending, or at least stopping for a while at the end of this year. I hope so. I just want to hope so.

NK: Andrius, thank you very much for your time.

AT: My pleasure.

CH: We reached Andrius Tapinas in Vilnius, Lithuania.

[music: electronica]

Masih Alinejad Murder Plot

CH: According to the U.S. government, Iran hasn't just been targeting activists inside the country. On Friday, the Justice Department announced that it had charged three men who had planned to assassinate journalist Masih Alinejad in New York. The men are allegedly members of an organization that calls itself "Thieves-in-Law", and authorities say Iran gave orders to carry out the killing. A year-and-a-half ago, a plot to kidnap Ms. Alinejad and take her to Iran was also foiled. Here is part of Masih Alinejad's interview on CNN this morning.

SOUNDCLIP

MASIH ALINEJAD: I was on my way to go to Washington, D.C. I had some meetings. And I got a phone call from the FBI. They had stopped me from travelling there. And then, they invited me to the FBI headquarters in New York. Tweleve agents, the leadership, they were there and they gave me the details of the assassination plot. Imagine you go there and they give you all the details of how three men were planning to kill you. I felt like, wow, I have been given a second life. I could have been killed. I cannot even believe that I'm using this word. I could have been killed if I had opened the door in Brooklyn. Look, I want to be very honest with you. The details were really scary. But what scares me is that this is happening right now in Iran. So, you see, the Islamic Republic itself is a criminal organization and killing innocent protesters inside Iran, killing teenagers every single day. So, I'm very thankful to the U.S. government, to the law enforcement that they protect me. But it is scary that it has been twice that the Islamic Republic trying to challenge the U.S. authorities on U.S. soil by sending assassins to kill me. And if nothing happened, they do… they don't see any punishment, then there is no reason for Iranian government to send more killers on U.S. soil.

REPORTER: I looked through the indictment. It suggests that there is a connection, but it doesn't say explicitly that Iranian officials are behind this assassin.

MA: No, it says… it says… I mean, if you listen to the head of the FBI, the attorney general, they both said that this is from the Islamic Republic, from the government. They don't mention about the organization, but we Iranians know the best that this is all coming from Revolutionary Guards. Revolutionary Guards, which is on the terrorist list by the U.S. government, which clearly should be in the terrorist list of all the European countries are behind all these assassination plots. Look, in 40 years, there are more than 500 people got assassinated or kidnapped on U.S. soil and European countries.

CH: That was Iranian activist and journalist Masih Alinejad speaking to CNN this morning. On Friday, the FBI announced charges against three men accused of trying to assassinate her.

[music: sombre]

Yazidi/Syria Repatriation Critic

Guest: Jamileh Naso

CH: They came here seeking asylum from ISIS persecution. And now, Yazidis who escaped to Canada are raising the alarm about plans to bring back Canadians who may have ties to ISIS. Earlier this month, Ottawa struck a deal that would see the return of six women and 13 children who're being held by Kurdish forces in Syria. The next day a federal court judge issued a ruling ordering Ottawa to make arrangements for the return of four detained men. All of whom are being detained because of alleged links to ISIS. None of the men have been tried or convicted. But Jamileh Naso says that hasn't dampened the fears of the Yazidi refugees that she's working to help. Ms. Naso is the president of the Canadian Yazidi Association. We reached her in Winnipeg.

NK: Jamileh, what have you been hearing from Yazidi refugees that you work with about this possibility that Canadians being held in Syria might come back to this country?

JAMILEH NASO: Many individuals in this community are being retraumatized and triggered because of this news. I mean, a lot of them have been struggling to transition… to transition into Canadian life after almost five years here. And this news is just another barrier to their healing process. And quite frankly, it brings up a lot of security concerns for them living here because they could be neighbours with the very people who held them captive, who were selling them as sex slaves, you know, who abducted their children, who killed their… their spouses. So, there is a lot of fear and anxiety, stress.

NK: Last week, we spoke to lawyer Lawrence Greenspon, who represents some of the detainees. And he said to us that the detainees are, quote, in prisons. They're Canadian. They haven't been charged with anything. They're entitled to be brought home if their rights are being violated. What would you say in response to Mr. Greenspon?

JN: I would simply say, well, what about the… the rights and freedoms of… of the survivors who are now living in Canada? Who Canada brought over in 2017 under a special program, you know, to save these individuals from genocide. And a lot of them were women and young kids who were captives under ISIS. And yet many females also participated in that torture and that genocide of this community. So, you know, to that, I would say, are we putting the rights and freedoms of suspected terrorists above those of survivors and victims?

NK: There is the principle, though, of a right to a fair trial, innocent until proven guilty. So, you know, what would you say to people who… who raise that issue? That is the reality of our justice system.

JN: Yes, it is the reality of our justice system. And I think it's another thing that makes this country so great. But at the same time, if we do that, those legal principles won't apply to these individuals because the evidence and the victims are not here in Canada, they're across the world, in Syria and Iraq and neighbouring countries, where… where all these crimes were committed. So, you know, I say to them, we're essentially giving them a free card to come to Canada, to come back to Canada. Individuals who voluntarily left, who went to join this organization or not join but go to that region when these countries have been flagged by the Canadian government saying they're not safe to travel to. And I think everyone knew in 2014 what was happening in that region. So, you know, what… what was the purpose of these individuals going there, you know, if not that?

NK: Kimberly Polman, who was brought home to Canada from Syria last fall, is now facing a terrorist peace bond hearing. Another woman who has come back to Canada is now facing four terrorism related offences. Does that signal to you, though, that justice will take its course, and people will… will face trial?

JN: I think, like, each case is so different. So, it really depends on the amount of information that the Canadian government is able to collect. And to date, we don't know any of that information. That's not been made public. So, we don't know. And because it's unknown, a lot of survivors and community members here can only think, you know, when are these people coming? Are they going to be our neighbours? Where are they going to end up? Is it safe for us to send our kids to school? Is it safe for me to go to the supermarket if I can't recognize these individuals? What if they recognize me out on the streets? You know, so, like from a survivor's perspective and people who were the victims, I don't think any of that was taken into consideration when all this was happening.

NK: What, in your view, and… and the… the families that you work with, the Yazidi families, what do they believe should happen to these Canadian citizens?

JN: I think that's going to be up to the… the Canada's justice system and the courts to decide. But from a community perspective, these individuals were brought to Canada for safety and security. So then, to turn around and say, you know, we're bringing in, repatriating, these individuals who… who may have participated in those crimes and the unknown of will they be held accountable? Will there be trials? We don't know any of that information. And I think politically, many people… it's hard to agree on anything nowadays. But I think most people can agree that it's probably best to keep terrorists or suspected terrorists out of the country for the safety of both the Yazidi community and general public.

NK: So you're saying they should stay in the detention camps?

JN: I think we should be prioritizing the family reunification of Yazidi families who've already settled in Canada before we try to reunify families of suspected terrorists.

NK: Has there been any communication from officials to allay the fears and concerns that you were telling us about?

JN: No, we haven't received any… any information or anything like that from Canadian officials, but we've definitely been reaching out. We're hoping we will hear something with it within the next few weeks.

NK: Are people not getting the help that they need here? I wanted to ask about that as well. When you say that they should be prioritized, are you concerned that they're not getting what they need?

JN: Yeah. I mean, the Yazidi community is amongst the most, you know, traumatized populations that have arrived in Canada since post, you know, World War Two Holocaust times. So, there definitely is that added layer of trauma that this community has faced. And there has been a lack of just care and investment on the side of the federal government. That being said, the… the actions of local grassroots organizations across this country have really stepped up to fill that gap. But there's only so much that local community can do. So, we're really asking the government now to… to step up and help facilitate and accelerate family reunification for these families to help them heal.

NK: Jamileh, I appreciate your time. Thank you very much.

JN: Thank you so much.

CH: Jamileh Naso is the president of Canadian Yazidi Association. We reached her in Winnipeg.

[music: sad piano]

Ryan Reynolds Donation

CH: Maybe Ryan Reynolds gets prickly. Maybe, at some point, he has drop-kicked a latte because he was mad that it was too hot, or too cold, or too exactly the right temperature. But so far, we have no evidence of that. In fact, quite the opposite: just this month, he won an award from the Academy of Canadian Cinema and Television for his philanthropy. Now, as you may know, along with being a swell guy and a movie star, he's the co-owner of the Welsh Soccer team Wrexham AFC. And recently, he made a surprise GoFundMe donation to a children's soccer team in Wrexham, so that the under-12s team could buy new uniforms. Eleven-year-old Keegan Barton is one of the players on that soccer team. His father died last year. And Mr. Reynolds had a special message for Keegan and his mother Kayleigh.

SOUNDCLIP

RYAN REYNOLDS: I just want to say that I'm really inspired by you, Pal. And I… I know… I'm super excited by everything that's been happening in Wrexham, and particularly with your team. I'm really inspired by all the amazing things that you guys are doing over there. And I can't wait to see you in the new uniform, and I can't wait to meet in person one of these days, Keegan. All right, Pal. Sending you lost of love from New York.

CH: And Ryan Reynolds did not just pay for those new uniforms. He also invited young Keegan to yesterday's Wrexham match. This morning, Keegan and his mother spoke with BBC Breakfast.

SOUNDCLIP

KEEGAN BARTON: It was just amazing. I loved it so much.

HOST: Kayleigh, tell us about how this all started.

KAYLEIGH BARTON: Well, what it was is I created a GoFundMe page to raise some funds for the lad’s football kits. And one day, I had an email saying that a Ryan donated £600. I was like, who's Ryan? [chuckle] So then I went on the GoFundMe page, and it said, Ryan Reynolds. And I was… I was just completely shocked. I just couldn't believe it. I just thought it was a dream, to be honest with you. And so I rang the coach, Andy, and I said to him, have you just seen what I seen? And he said, yeah. I just couldn't believe it. And then, when I was on the phone to him, I had another email saying, Ryan had donated another thousand pounds. And I said to his coach, is this real? He was like, Kayleigh, it's real. I said, are you sure? [chuckle] we just couldn’t believe it.

KEEGAN BARTON: I just said about all my goal to him.

KAYLEIGH BARTON: And Ryan had seen… a video got sent to him of Keegan the other day, scoring. And so, Ryan received that. And then, Ryan was talking to him about that video he’d seen of him.

HOST #2: Oh, he might try and sign you up. [laughing all around]

KAYLEIGH BARTON: You never know.

HOST #2: Keegan, tell me, what do you think of Ryan ,then? So, you've got the new kits fit for your team. You've had the day out at Wrexham. You've seen this match. You've got to meet him. What do you think of this guy?

KEEGAN BARTON: He’s kind. He’s really thoughtful. Caring.

CH: Keegan and Kayleigh Barton speaking with BBC Breakfast today about Ryan Reynolds -- who donated money so Keegan's soccer team in Wales could get new uniforms.

[cheerful instrumental]

Part 3: St. Mark’s Fire, ‘Special Delivery’, Crafoord Prize Winner

St. Mark’s Fire

Guest: Kate Harrison

CH: A London neighbourhood is mourning the loss of a historic place of worship. The National Churches Trust has described St Mark's as an "architectural and historical treasure". It has links to author Lewis Carroll and Queen Victoria's son Prince Leopold. And it survived a bomb during the Second World War. But on Friday, it was destroyed by a fire. Reverend Kate Harrison is the vicar at St Mark's. We reached her in London, England.

NK: Kate, as you look out on your… on your church today, what remains of it?

KATE HARRISON: It's a shell. It's four walls. But the steeple is there. The steeple is still pointing towards heaven, standing in defiance. But, yes, it's… it's really quite a sad sight.

NK: Were you there on Friday?

KH: Yes, I was… I was in the vicarage, which is next door to the church. The doorbell rang, and it was a chap who was out walking his dog who said, I think there might be a fire. So, my husband investigated, found the whole place was filled with smoke and called the fire brigade.

NK: It must have been just awful to watch.

KH: Yeah, it was an absolute nightmare unfolding in front of us. So, we sort of went out to the front of the building when the fire engines arrived. And then, they moved us to across the road. And we were just standing there watching, you know, even as they were pouring the water on the fire, the fire taking more and more hold.

NK: Is there any sense of what caused it at this point?

KH: No, no. They… the forensic team from the insurance company and the… the fire service and so on are going to be starting to sift through and see if they can find the cause. But we really just don't know. And, you know, there's… there's just no point in speculating at this time.

NK: You've served this community and worked in this church for… for about five years now. Can you just tell our listeners what it's meant to you, but also to the community?

KH: Yes, St Mark's is a real community hub. You know, as well as the church services that we have, we have things for the community such as concerts, we have comedy events, we have painting classes, we have drop-in cafes, we had mums going in every day with their kids just to play in the children's area. There was always, always, something going on in that building. So, it's… it's a huge loss to the community, as well as the fact that it was just the most beautiful, beautiful Victorian building. And now it's gone.

NK: One hundred and seventy-five years of history there. Just tell me about… about that history for… for our audience who likely hasn't had a chance to see it in person or visit it.

KH: Yeah. So, St. Mark's was built in 1847. And it's had… oh gosh, I don't know how many vicars before me, but one of them was… the most famous one, I suppose, was the Reverend Karen Duckworth, who you probably don't know the name, but he was the chief to Prince Leopold, one of Queen Victoria's children, before he was appointed here. And also was the man who introduced a certain Lewis Carroll to Alice. And the… the girl that Alice in Wonderland was based on. So, we have literary connections. We are based in a street that is parallel to Abbey Road. So, if you think of the Beatles' Abbey Road album, that's very close to here and Lord's Cricket Ground as well for any of your listeners who follow English cricket. So, there's been, you know, an awful lot going on in the last 175 years.

NK: [chuckle] Certainly.

KH: And I guess we have the challenge of making it go on for the next 175 years.

NK: Yeah I wanted to ask you about the future. I know on Sunday, yesterday, you held a special service outside. You know, what were the parishioners telling you about how they're feeling?

KH: They were absolutely distraught, of course. A huge, huge amount of pain. But also, alongside that pain, this determination to carry on doing what we've done for the local community. And so, we're sort of trying to find ways of doing that creatively now. It's being in the shadow of that spire, which is still standing there, defiantly, is sort of capturing the mood here of defiance and determination. And we will continue.

NK: What about plans to rebuild? How do you begin to tackle that at this early stage? Financially, but also just the logistics of planning?

KH: Yeah, I mean, all of that is… is quite difficult to know exactly right now. You know, the building itself was insured, but that's not going to cover the cost of rebuilding a church that is suitable for the next 175 years. So, we are going to have to look at fundraising, which is really not what we want to be doing. We want to just be carrying on with loving the area and loving the community around us. But we are going to have to look at that and to work out exactly how we build back better, to borrow a phrase. [both chuckle] To make this a better-suited building now to… to contribute to the… you know, the common good of the local area going forwards.

NK: And just finally, Kate, what did you tell your parishioners yesterday as they try to process what has happened?

KH: There wasn't much I could tell them other than that I… I stood in that pain with them. And that that image of the spire is what will lead us through. You know, it's still pointing towards God, and that's what we still need to do.

NK: Kate, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

KH: Thank you.

CH: Reverend Kate Harrison is the vicar at St Mark's Church, which was destroyed by a fire on Friday. We reached her in London, U.K.

[music: electronica]

‘Special Delivery’

Guest: Samir Sinha

CH: Samir Sinha says that Canada Post letter carriers should be delivering more than the mail. Dr. Sinha is the head of geriatrics for Sinai Health and the University Health Network in Toronto. He's the co-author of a new report for the National Institute on Aging. It's entitled "Special Delivery" --and it's pitching a plan that would see posties adding a little elder care to their delivery routes. We reached Dr. Sinha in Toronto.

NK: So, Dr. Sinha, in the ideal scenario, how do you see this working?

SAMIR SINHA: I think what we're seeing is an opportunity to have our postal workers, who are visiting millions of addresses every day to, provide an enhanced service so that those individuals who might benefit from it and may want this service could actually have a postal worker not only deliver the mail but also offer to have a chat and a check in just to see how they're doing. And this is actually how the model in its simplest form exists on the Isle of Jersey, in the United Kingdom and in Japan and France, where those national postal services run these services. And they're ones that are very popular with a lot of older people, including the children of older people who are worried about their mom and dad.

NK: What kinds of things are… are they checking in on?

SS: So at the simplest form, you know, in the Isle of Jersey, they just start by a simple question of how are you doing today? But they also ask people, you know, are you having any trouble with your medications? And are there… are there any issues that you want us to pass on to the local community agency or your family contacts? And so, if anybody's running into trouble or if the postal worker sees that the person might be struggling a little bit more, they can gently, you know, pass along that… that information on their behalf so that we can be a bit more proactive so that an issue doesn't flare up and become more serious.

NK: And what is the cost for this call in check in?

SS: So the services that have been run, you know, can be, you know, nominal -- like, you know, five or $10 a visit. In places like Jersey, they've actually found it's so helpful that the ministry of health there, if you will, actually funds at least two visits per person a week should they want them and should they benefit from them. And then, if the person wants additional visits, they can pay for those on their own. And the reason why is by preventing people from running into bigger issues, they're keeping out of emergency departments in hospitals. So, it actually is a good preventative way to save dollars. But for most of the programs, the ones that are run in France and Japan, these are just subscriber services. And… and often… the program in France is called “Look Over” or “Watch Over my Parents”. So, these are actually very popular programs where… where people are willing to subscribe because they're paying for a bit of peace of mind.

NK: So, they're paying for a bit of peace of mind, someone to check-in. But what about the postal workers themselves who some might say, you know, they already have a lot… a lot to do, busy, busy jobs, on their feet all day, walking door to door. And this is just another thing that could be added to their responsibilities.

SS: Yeah. So, I mean, again, whenever setting up a program like this, you have to work in partnership with… with groups. We… we know that in a recent survey, over 80 per cent of older Canadians said they love this idea of the postal service delivering a service. Close to 40 per cent or more actually said they'd probably be interested in subscribing to it. So we know that there's good public interest in this idea. But obviously, you need to have postal workers who feel comfortable and confident doing this and have the right training. But I can tell you that the Canadian Union of Postal Workers, they've actually been… they're really supportive of this idea. They think it's a great idea. They think it's one that actually can both keep the… the postal service more financially viable, but also ensure that postal workers have things to do so that… so that they continue having these jobs as well.

NK: And what about the response from Canada Post?

SS: So, Canada Post has been silent on this. Interestingly, we've reached out to them for a number of months to get them involved and saying, hey, what do you think? And can we chat about this? They've decided to not engage, unfortunately, around this conversation. But again, when we contacted the Canadian Postal Workers saying, what do you think? They told us that they've actively been campaigning around this idea with Canada Post because they love the idea. We know that older Canadians love the idea. And frankly, I think it's something that could actually keep Canada Post more financially viable.

NK: Why do you think they haven't responded? What does that signal to you?

SS: I don't know. I mean, I really don't know why they haven't responded. They certainly have been looking at other things to generate revenue, like getting into banking, like some other national postal services do. But I really think it'd be a great idea for them to do because right now, while people say that wait a minute, is this actually… can we do this, especially when we have community mailboxes and that? We still know that Canada Post will make special accommodations for frail, older people and other people who can't get to these community boxes. So, they are still making sure that for our most vulnerable older people, they're going right to their door at least once a week. And so, adding on the service is something that we know could very much be something that, with the right training and support, our postal workers could be engaged. You know, the infrastructure's there. We've got a dedicated workforce, and it's a workforce that 87 per cent of Canadians trust to deliver their mail. And therefore, actually, trust to also potentially deliver a service like this.

NK: I wondered if you… if you discussed this with… with people in your family, your… your elders and what they thought about this idea.

SS: Oh, I was talking to my parents on the weekend about this. And they're like... they were saying, well, we love this report that you've come up with. And they were asking me, like, how did this come up in Japan and France? And we think it's great. Because here… I have two ageing parents in Winnipeg, and they had two sons. That was their first mistake. [NK chuckles] One is in Baltimore. One is in Toronto. That's like a typical Canadian story. And so, every winter, I get a bit nervous about them. They've been telling me more recently as they age about how good friends and… you know, they're losing contact as people get sick or... or people pass away. And so, they're feeling a bit more vulnerable. And I know that, you know, as a son [chuckling], who cares very much for my parents. If there was a service like this and my parents would benefit from it, I know they would be more than happy if I subscribed to it for them, or they might choose to subscribe to it for themselves. So, it's just one of those extra layers that this is not something for everybody. But it's amazing that when this survey was done of older Canadians, over 80 per cent thought it was a great idea, like my parents. And over 40 per cent actually said that they would probably subscribe to it themselves if it was available.

NK: Dr. Sinha, thank you very much for your time.

SS: Thanks for having me.

CH: Samir Sinha is the head of geriatrics for Sinai Health and the University Health Network. We reached him in Toronto. We did reach out to Canada Post for a response, but we did not hear back before we went to air this evening.

[music: instrumental]

Ottawa Senior Couple Separated

CH: John and Gwen Hooper have been married for 73 years. But for the past 19 months, they've been going through a separation. And it is not by choice. Until June 2021, the Hoopers had been living together in a retirement home in Orleans -- a suburb of Ottawa. But then, John began wandering outside the residence in the middle of the night and needed to be moved to a longer-term care home. Because of a waitlist, Gwen wasn't able to join him. More than a year-and-a-half has passed since John was moved. And their daughter, Cynthia Hooper, says it's been heart-wrenching to see them apart.

SOUNDCLIP

CYNTHIA HOOPER: At the time, we were told that there was a program in place for spousal reunification. Initially, I was led to believe it could be days-to-weeks. And then, in talking to someone else, I was told, oh no, it won't happen that soon. It'll be weeks-to-months. And then, I was told it could be months-to-years. So, needless to say, it was upsetting and upsetting for my mom and dad too. We often do say, you know, we are still trying to get Mom in here, Dad. Nothing's happened so far, but we're lobbying. We are really trying hard to get you together. And my father often calls out, looking for my mom. So, it is very sad. It's heart-wrenching that after 73 years of marriage, they're forced to live apart. Mom and Dad actually got to have a visit on Saturday. They said they loved each other. And it's just so nice when you hear them say that. But at the same time, it just tears you apart, just knowing that they can't be together.

CH: That was Cynthia Hooper, speaking with CBC Ottawa reporter Matthew Kupfer, about her parents, John and Gwen Hooper.

[music: ambient instrumental]

Crafoord Prize Winner

Guest: Dolph Schluter

CH: You don't get into zoology to meet the King of Sweden. But a zoologist at the University of British Columbia is going to do that this spring -- and listen, he's not complaining. Professor Dolph Schluter has been selected as the 2023 recipient of the Crafoord Prize -- one of the most prestigious science awards in the world. His internationally renowned work focuses on adaptive radiation and ecological speciation, which are… look, things it's best if I let him explain. Dolph Schluter is a professor of Zoology at the Biodiversity Research Centre at UBC. We reached him in Barga, Italy.

NK: Dolph, congratulations.

DOLPH SCHLUTER: Thanks, Nil.

NK: I know it's… the cool thing is to say, you know, these kinds of awards are nice to get, but they're not important. But really, truly, was this something you had always hoped for? This kind of recognition?

DS: [chuckling] No, never.

NK: No?

DS: Well, we all hope to be recognized for the work that we do, I suppose. But, no, this is so far off the radar it caught me completely off guard.

NK: So, now that you have been bestowed this honour, what does it feel like?

DS: [chuckling] I'm still getting used to it.

NK: Yeah.

DS: Because it was so unexpected.

NK: How did you find out?

DS: I received a phone call from Sweden one afternoon when I was in my office, from… from a colleague with the Swedish Royal Society. He told me that I had won this award. And, well, imagine my surprise.

NK: And you've had to sit on this… keep quiet about it for a bit?

DS: I have to keep quiet about it. Yes.

NK: And now, we can --

DS: Yes, until today.

NK: Well, let's talk about what you're being recognized for. Your work focuses on ecology and speciation. Can you tell our listeners who may not be involved in those fields what exactly that is.

DS: I’m being recognized for a body of work carried out over the years on the origin of species, and also something we call adaptive radiation, which is sort of a rapid production of a bunch of species all doing different things like exploiting the environment in different ways. The classic example of an adaptive radiation would be the Galapagos finches.

NK: Um-hmm.

DS: Where, you know, one species got trapped on the island and eventually evolved to a stay. And that happened relatively rapidly. You know, I've worked on the causes, how that happens, why that happens. And especially I've worked on the origin of species themselves and how they become different from one another.

NK: A lot of your research focuses on a certain fish in the waters off of British Columbia, the threespine stickleback. First time I'm hearing about the threespine stickleback, must admit. What is so special about… about that creature?

DS: A humble, humble fish. So, across the tree of Life, it's estimated that to get two new species that have one common ancestor takes on average, about 2 million years. And the Galapagos finches, that process has been sped up. It's on the order of 100,000 years. I started working on these stickleback, which occur in small lakes off coastal B.C. because in these lakes there are two species. The lakes are only themselves about 10,000 to 15,000 years old. So, they are among the youngest species on Earth in anything. And stickleback… well, it's… if you want to study the origin of species, it's best to catch it as it's happening. And you know, this is possible with these fish because it's… it's all happened so rapidly, so recently.

NK: Well, just describe what the threespine stickleback looks like and then what you've learned from it and your studies so far.

DS: What does the threespine stickleback look like? It's… I don’t know maybe about 50 centimetres long as an adult. It looks like a minnow. And we use many traps to catch them. In the breeding season, the males develop bright colours, bright red throat, a bluish body and they attract females and… that lay eggs in their nest. We've learned… some of the things we've learned about these fish and how they've been able to form new species so rapidly. A lot of it has to do with the fact that they ended up in these lakes with very few other species. And they adapted rapidly to the lake conditions. So, the marine threespined stickleback, which still swims around in coastal waters, and when the marine stickleback colonized these lakes, it brought with it a lot of… a lot of variation, a lot of genetic variation that was old, has been kicking around in the sea for a long time. And the species were able to evolve very rapidly by using this variation. Natural selection was able to act rapidly to produce rapid changes. One way to summarize how that works is the… the genes that distinguish the species are actually older than the species.

NK: I know you've taught hundreds and hundreds of students, thousands maybe, over your years at UBC. What did they tell you about what fascinates them about this work and this field?

DS: Well, I guess the answer to that would be as varied as the individuals that have come to my lab. A lot of… a lot of us, my students as well as myself at that stage, come to it from an interest in natural history, just a fascination with organisms, plants and animals and in nature. And many of us go into biology as a consequence. And as we learn more, we get our undergraduate education, we start to get interested in how and why questions. Why are there so many species? Why are there more in the tropics than in the temperate zones? How exactly do these species form? Was Darwin right? And so, those students, as I'm fortunate, come to me and say, I want to work on this problem.

NK: In addition to the prestige and the surprise and the applause that you're going to get when the news officially comes out, this award also comes with… with a large financial gift, about $800,000.

DS: [laughing] It does. It does.

NK: Yeah, that part is still sinking in? The check?

DS: You know, what I'm going to do with that?

NK: Yeah.

DS: I don't exactly know, but I'll probably give the majority away.

NK: Yeah. Not to research? You're going to give it… you're going to give it to charities or?

DS: Probably my first thought is some aspect of training, biodiversity education training. So, yes, not so much to research, but teaching.

NK: Well, Dolph, congratulations again. Thanks so much for taking time.

DS: Nice to talk to you. Thank you. Bye-bye.

CH: Dolph Schluter is a professor of Zoology at the Biodiversity Research Centre at UBC. We reached him in Barga, Italy.

[music: ‘War” by Edwin Starr/Soul]

Barrett Strong Obit

CH: Edwin Starr with the soul classic "War" -- co-written by the duo of Norman Whitfield and Barrett Strong. And, look, if that were their only classic, they still could have retired with pride. But each of them -- and both of them together -- wrote so many others. Barrett Strong died this weekend, at the age of 81. He and Mr. Whitfield were staff songwriters for Motown Records in the 60's and 70's -- where they also co-wrote "I Heard It Through the Grapevine" for Marvin Gaye, and "Papa Was A Rolling Stone" and "Ball of Confusion" for The Temptations, among others. Songs that took the Motown label in new and experimental directions for the psychedelic era. But before all those enormous hits, he'd already written an all-timer -- a song that put the Detroit R&B sound on the map. An instant basement dance party anthem that's been recorded over the years by John Lee Hooker, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Kingsmen, The Flying Lizards and John Belushi. But the best recording might just be the original. From 1959, here is Barrett Strong himself, with "Money (That's What I Want)".

[music: "Money (That's What I Want)" by Barrett Strong/Soul]

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January 30, 2023 Episode Transcript