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The AIH transcript for January 26, 2023

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is "As It Happens."

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

NK: The untruth hurts. A new report suggests COVID-19 misinformation and those who refused vaccines likely cost the healthcare system millions -- and may have led to thousands more deaths.

CH: Closing a can of worms. Since the mid-eighties, medical science has been successfully battling the parasitic guinea worm. One doctor on the frontline of that fight tells us how close they are to eradicating it completely.

NK: Good faith argument. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau appoints Canada's first special representative on combating Islamophobia. So we'll ask Amira Elghawaby how she plans to do that job.

CH: Different Strokes meant different folk. Sol Sigurdson sang the songs of a particular time and place: Manitoba in the seventies. But a label owner believes those long lost tracks will find an audience today.

NK: In defence of de-fencing. A B.C. man bravely untangles a moose that found itself dangerously ensnared in a fence -- and adds it to a list of previous animal rescues that have made him kind of a veteran veterinarian.

CH: And… putting the lit in omelet. Groovy news for those of us who understand the universe is out there, but also, like, inside us all. An Ontario family finally cracks open an egg so big it became a tourist attraction and discovers another egg within it.

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that apologizes if you don't get this story but is kind of an inside yolk.

Part 1: COVID Misinformation, Amira Elghawaby, Leamington Giant Egg

NK: When we talk about those numbers, if you could… if you could illustrate some of them for us, you know, in terms of the deaths that didn't need to happen and the hospitalizations.

AH: Sure, there were tens of thousands of preventable hospitalizations. Just short of 3,000 preventable deaths. A very conservative estimate of at least $300 million of cost to the health system. And those costs don't even touch the ripple effects. They're simply the direct hospital costs. And so they were very conservative estimates. But it just brings home… and this is, you know, models are models and they're imperfect, but it does… it does bring home, if this is just one slice of one area of misinformation, how big and how costly to individuals and to us as a society this information has become.

NK: Yeah, how did you arrive at these numbers?

AH: We started by just tracking real-time, real-world data on how many people were vaccinated, how many people were hospitalized, how many people died, and it did what's called a kind of outer bound estimation of what would have happened based on… on the research if everyone had been vaccinated as soon as they were eligible. And those are the bookmarks. So, here's what really happened. Here's what would have happened in an ideal world of everyone being vaccinated. And then, we modelled two scenarios based on... on polling data and the research and the link between misinformation and vaccination behaviour. One model asked what would have happened had everyone who thought that COVID was a hoax been vaccinated as soon as they were eligible. And the other scenario was what would happen to those who distrusted the vaccine information and thought that there were hidden dangers in it, if all of them had been vaccinated as soon as possible. The estimates are pretty reliable, pretty conservative, as I said. And what we found is in all of those models, lives would have been saved. People would have been saved from unnecessary illness. And had all those who had been eligible been vaccinated as soon as they were eligible, the pressures on the healthcare system would have been far diminished, and the costs to the healthcare system would have been far less.

NK How did you narrow down that the hesitancy was because of… of misinformation?

AH: Right. What we did on that is we had polling data about what proportion of Canadians were indeed hesitant or thought the vaccine information was incomplete or inaccurate. And all the polling data kind of converged. And we had concrete research that showed the link between those beliefs and vaccination behaviours.

NK: We've all seen some of this misinformation in one shape or form, usually on our social media feeds. But what were the major sources of this… this misinformation that has permeated our world so deeply?

AH: Well, you started in the right place. The… the panel describes a perfect storm of factors that have led to this sort of post-truth era where the very idea of truth is under attack. And start with this vast… vastly expanded media environment where more and more people, Canadians are hugely connected, get their information from social media and personal messaging apps. They're exposed to overwhelming amounts of information and overwhelming amounts of disinformation that is relatively unmediated. And there's a good deal of evidence that the algorithms that these social media platforms use actually accelerate the spread of misinformation. Misinformation produces traffic, conflict and clash produce traffic. And so, there are some built-in incentives that have led to… and the research finds that misinformation seems to spread faster than [chuckle] good information.

NK: You know, so many of these views are now deeply entrenched in people's minds. How do you walk that back? How do you change thinking?

AH: Well, if I had a simple answer, I'd be a very wealthy man. But, you know, what we do know is that misinformation is sticky. People, me included, don't like to think that we've been making decisions on false information, that we've been wrong. And what we've discovered is that people who are misinformed are more resistant to new data than people who are simply uninformed. We also know that people who are misinformed are vulnerable to other areas of misinformation. It's sort of got a contagion effect. So, it's a challenge. But one of the advantages of having this global problem is that the world is provided as a laboratory of things that are being done across the world. The UN has launched a program called "Verified" to take on misinformation online. Finland has now a curriculum to help kids identify misinformation and reject that. We're also looking at how to hold media platforms more accountable, at least, you know, obviously, in a way that protects freedom of expression but requires greater transparency and content moderation on how their algorithms work. Some greater control on bots and other ways in which misinformation is… is accelerated and transmitted. So, there… there is a wealth of information now about things that have been tried, many of which seem to be promising.

NK: Alex, thank you very much for your time.

AH: You betcha. Thanks for having me.

CH: We reached Alex Himelfarb in Toronto.

[music: industrial]

Amira Elghawaby

Guest: Amira Elghawaby

CH: Canada has its first special representative on combating Islamophobia. Prime Minister Trudeau promised to create the position last June. It was one of the recommendations of a summit that followed the murders of four members of the Afzaal family in London, Ontario in 2021. This morning, the prime minister announced that human rights activist, and former journalist, Amira Elghawaby will be Canada's inaugural Special Representative on Combating Islamophobia. We reached Ms. Elghawaby in Toronto.

NK: Amira, this is a brand new role for you, but also for Canada. How would you describe your job?

AMIRA ELGHAWABY: My job now is really about championing, advocating Canadian Muslim communities in this country to stand up for their rights, to live a life free of discrimination, free from the fear of facing Islamophobia in their day-to-day lives. And so, what I will be doing is, you know, listening to their concerns, providing input and advice to the federal government on how we can work together to address systemic racism in this country and how we can make Canada, you know, a place that we can raise our children in safety and not be fearful that we will potentially be attacked or that we will face discrimination that, you know, impacts our ability to participate fully in making Canada as strong as it could be.

NK: How do you make sure it isn't just a symbolic role? Because sometimes, these… these roles can veer into that, right? So how do you make sure that… that it has a lasting impact?

AE: It's going to take a lot of work. There's no doubt about it. We have to take whatever steps we can to address racism in this country to address Islamophobia. And this is a really important step. It's a promise that, you know, was made to Canadians from communities at the Islamophobia summit. Minister Ahmed Hussen pledged that he would ensure that there was a strong advocate for Canadian Muslims because, you know, Islamophobia has touched many of us. You know, on Sunday, we are going to be marking the sixth anniversary of the tragic attack at the Quebec City mosque where six men were killed in cold blood by an individual who was so consumed with extreme ideas and Islamophobic hatred. And that sadly wasn't the last time there was such a massacre. That we had the Afzaal family in London, Ontario that faced a terrible, terrible attack, and four members of that family were killed. And then, as well today when we made the announcement, was actually made at the mosque here in Toronto where a volunteer caretaker was, you know, sitting in front of the mosque during the pandemic, helping people make sure they were masked. And an individual, again, sympathetic to extremist views, stabbed him and killed him in cold blood there as well. So, we… we know that Islamophobia can have these deadly consequences. And we also know that it can have sort of everyday systemic impact. And so, the federal government, by creating this role, is signalling that there is going to be a real effort to figuring out, to working together on how we can create policies that make a change.

NK: How will you, and how does your role, do you think, Amira, how will that help prevent the kinds of attacks and the incidents that you just listed?

AE: I think it's obviously a role like this will not necessarily, you know, stop someone who decides in their mind that, you know, the Muslim that they see, you know, on the road, at public transit, you know, in public spaces is not a threat to them. Sadly, those narratives exist particularly online, where we see a rise in Islamophobic discourse as well as other forms of… of harmful, divisive narratives, including anti-Semitism, anti-Black racism, anti-Indigenous hate, and a variety of other very harmful, harmful ideas. So, a role like this is not necessarily going to stop those individuals, but a role like this can at least work with communities to look for potential solutions on how can we help sort of foster a society in which these ideas just become less and less attractive. How can we work to address systemic forms as well as Islamophobia, and that we can really come up with creative solutions to be an example on the world stage of what it means to be an inclusive society where people of various backgrounds and religious expression and cultural background and such are where we can come together and really build a strong, stable country where everyone can succeed.

NK: Well, as you know, Canada has a special envoy on preserving Holocaust remembrance and combating anti-Semitism. But I'm also seeing tweets today, for example, one that said all racism should be fought, not just Islamophobia, and another where the person appears to be concerned that Islamophobia is… is too broad a term and could be a threat to free speech. What do you say? What kind of dialogue do you have with people who throw those kinds of thoughts your way?

AE: Yes, well, I'm very much looking forward to speaking to Professor Irwin Cotler about his work combating anti-Semitism. It is so critical. And so, I think that absolutely there are many forms of discrimination that people and communities are experiencing in Canada, and we need to tackle all of them. But Canada is, you know, the number one sort of G7 country that has had the most Muslims killed in the past five years. That is really devastating. And when, you know, myself and I'm walking out in my neighbourhood, and if I'm a bit concerned or frightened because of the fact that I'm a visible Muslim, I think that that's something that fellow Canadians have already told me that they don't want me to feel that way. They want me to feel welcome. And usually, I do. But there is that minority that, you know, is finding spaces online, fomenting hatred that are really posing a danger not just to Canadian Muslims, but to, honestly, our very democracy. Because when we cannot go out in our… in our communities feeling safe, we cannot participate, that starts to create fear, that starts to create a reluctance to participate. And then, our democracy suffers. And for sure, people can always criticize Islam. That has never been what Islamophobia has been addressing. What Islamophobia speaks to is the discrimination. It is to look at Muslims writ large as a danger or as a threat, or as a problem with a phenomenon that has taken lives in this country and has prevented people from fully participating. And that's what I'm here to work with communities to address.

NK: Amira, thank you very much for your time.

AE: Thanks so much, Nil.

CH: Amira Elghawaby is Canada's first Special Representative on Combating Islamophobia. She's in Toronto.

[music: indie rock]

Leamington Giant Egg

Guests: Corrie Bondy, Jason Adamson

CH: Here at As It Happens, we take our puns very seriously. We don't pick the low-hanging fruit. Unless, you know, the pun is fruit-related. So, when I was told we'd be doing this next story about a giant egg being laid in Leamington, Ontario, I told the producer to dig deep. I don't want to see one "egg-cellent". Nothing about "hatching a plan". And not a single "get cracking". And I think… I think he got the message. So, let's see how he did here [paper rustling]. A Leamington, Ontario family is scramble… scrambling [pause] oh no. Okay, well, maybe it gets better: a Leamington, Ontario family is scrambling to crack -- nope -- the case of -- oh, come on, man: the case of the oversized… [pause] ovum? A cursory eggs-amination -- [said with some upset] how is that different from "egg-cellent"?! -- eggs-amination of Corrie Bondy and Jason Adamson's chicken coop revealed one egg that proved hard to beat. [dejected tone] And that's no yolk. Okay, I'm… I'm done. We reached Corrie Bondy and Jason Adamson in Leamington. Just start the interview.

NK: Corrie, you finally cracked this massive egg -- during a livestream, no less. So, what did that feel like?

CORRIE BONDY: It was pretty exciting. I was a little nervous. I didn't want to drop it or mess up cracking the egg, but we were successful.

NK: And then, inside, there was another surprise.

CB: Yes, inside of the large egg, there was another egg.

NK: Double yolk.

CB: Yes, one yolk in each of the eggs.

NK: Oh, there was actually another egg inside? It wasn't --

CB: Oh yes, yeah. There was one egg and one yolk when I cracked the big one. And then, inside the other egg, there was one yolk.

NK: Mind-blowing! [both chuckle]

CB: It is crazy.

NK: No. So, I've taken a look at the pictures. Just describe it for… for people who haven't seen it.

CB: The egg itself is probably about three to four times the size of a supermarket egg. And we did weigh it, and it weighed in at 175 grams.

NK: My gosh. And it was your husband, Jason, who originally found… found this egg, and Jason's nearby as well. Do you want to pass the phone to him? Let me ask him.

JASON ADAMSON: Yes, hello.

NK: Hi, Jason. Congratulations. I don't know if you should buy lottery tickets for each of these eggs. I'm not sure. [JA chuckles] But just how did you find it?

JA: I just did my daily chores and went in collecting the eggs. And I'd seen this monster in there, and it just blew my mind. Right away, I was looking for the chicken that laid it.

NK: Yeah.

JA: I thought it wasn't going to be alive.

NK: Well, yeah. And how… how is she doing?

JA: Everybody was okay. They're all walking around normal and doing what chickens do.

NK: Huh!

JA: And I don't know which one laid it, so.

NK: Interesting. That's another… a mystery for another day. But in all your years of farming, have you ever seen an egg this big?

JA: No. No, I've had large eggs where there's two or three yolks in them, but this one would have been at least double the big eggs that I found before.

NK: And the hens are all, you know, regular hen size?

JA: Yeah, they're all regular chickens. And Corrie just... she was just mind-blowed with it. [NK chuckles] Did you want to ask Corrie again here?

NK: Yeah. Yeah. She can come back on.

CB: Hello.

NK: Hi. So, Jason brings in this egg, Corrie, and what do you say when you see it?

CB: At first, I obviously couldn't believe it. And as it sat in the house here for a little bit of time, I started getting curious, and I wondered if… what other size eggs there were out there. So I Googled it and come to find out we were just a couple of grams off of the larger one found in Ontario a few years ago.

NK: So, not quite record-breaking? Okay.

CB: No.

NK: All right. Still… but still pretty spectacular, it sounds like.

CB: Yes.

NK: Any… any… have you done any research that reveals how… how and why this happens?

CB: From what I've come across, it says that when you come up with the egg inside of an egg, the initial egg that was trying to be laid, the chicken was having some kind of problem. So, another egg forms around it. And that's how you come up with this double egg situation.

NK: Huh! So, you put it on display for a bit before cracking it, right?

CB: Yes!

NK: What kind of response did you get?

CB: We had lots of people coming into our retail store. I would say at least a dozen people a day would come in and ask about it. So, we would show it off when we could. And everybody seemed very interested in it. They just couldn't believe it either. They… some would just stand there in awe, and some wouldn't believe that it was a chicken egg. And -- [chuckle]

NK: Yeah, you had to convince them because it could have been, you know, a goose egg or… is it… is it bigger than a goose egg?

CB: It's probably similar in size, no?

NK: Yeah.

JA: It would be a large goose.

CB: Yeah, it would be similar in size. Yeah.

NK: And so, you'd have to convince them that, no, it's one of our hens.

CB: [chuckling] Yes.

NK: Just one of our regular, run-of-the-mill hens, overachiever in that part of the… part of the pen. [chuckle] Yeah, I guess it would be hard to decide that... that you're going to crack it, right?

CB: Yes!

NK: Was that... was that a… was that a difficult choice to make?

CB: Well, everybody kind of was waiting to find out what was inside. So, we knew we had to crack it eventually. We just thought we'd give it a couple of weeks for everybody to come and see it. And… and… but we knew we definitely had to crack it.

NK: And then, once you did that on the livestream, was there like a giant breakfast out of it? What do you do with that?

CB: [chuckle] We actually cooked it up, and our dog had half, and Jason had the other half.

NK: [chuckle] You didn't get any?

CB: Oh, I didn't want any. [laughing]

NK: Really? It just didn't sit well with you?

CB: I like eggs, but I don't eat them all the time, so.

NK: I see. Well, we can't ask the dog what it tasted like, but we can ask Jason, so.

CB: Yes.

NK: How did it measure up with your other eggs, Jason?

JA: It was just a normal-tasting egg.

NK: Well, was that disappointing? [chuckle] Or was it comforting?

JA: It wasn't better or anything, but.

NK: Just more of it.

JA: It was a lot of it, yeah.

NK: So is it disappointing now to go, you know, doing your chores, and it's just back to… back to normal over there?

JA: I always… I always kind of hope I see another big one in there.

NK: [chuckle] Does the hen, or do all of the hens, since you can't, I guess, pinpoint which one was the overachiever here, do they get any prizes for this? Are you giving them any special treatment?

JA: Yeah. I said it was the sunflower seeds.

NK: Oh!

JA: Which is a treat for them.

NK: Bonus. Is that like caviar for… for hens? [chuckling]

JA: Sure. [laughing]

NK: Let's go with that. Well, Jason, Corrie, thank you for sharing this story with us and your egg with the world.

JA: Oh, thank you. Thanks for letting us. It's been a lot of fun.

NK: Take care.

CB: Thank you.

CH: We reached Corrie Bondy and Jason Adamson in Leamington, Ontario.

[music: rock]

Sol Sigurdson Songs

CH: Some folk music fans on the Prairies will tell you that Sol Sigurdson did for Manitoba's Interlake region what Stan Rogers did for the Maritimes. Mr. Sigurdson's songs reflected his community's shared experiences and local legends -- as folk songs do. But as time moves on, those tales run the risk of being lost to the sands of time. Which is what happened to the work of Sol Sigurdson. Until his 1970 album "The Lake Winnipeg Fisherman" was rediscovered by Scott Petrowksi. And now, years after stumbling upon the rare record in a thrift store in Riverton, Manitoba, Mr. Petrowski has reissued it on his own record label, Ancient Raven Records.

SOUNDCLIP

SCOTT PETROWSKLI: Sol is a folk singer/songwriter from the Interlake community. And he… he won a contest back in the late-sixties that kind of sparked him to get to put together an album.

STEPHANIE CRAM: And what makes “The Lake Winnipeg Fisherman” such an important and very rare album?

SP: I think it's a connection to the community of the Interlake, specifically the people and the places in this area. So, it’s found its way into the hearts of a lot of people in this area and it's kind of there to stay.

SC: Now, you managed to contact and meet Sol Sigurdson. What did he think about your interest in the project?

SP: He thought it was a great idea. He was thrilled there was someone like myself that enjoyed the record so much that I wanted to bring it back to a whole new audience of people. So, I think that's what he was on board about the most.

SC: Why is this album, “The Lake Winnipeg Fisherman”, so important to the Interlake's history?

SP: I think it's the… the fact that it tells a lot of local history just in the songs itself, the people, the places. And it captures a time, I think, is really what it is. So a lot of people in the area look back at these things and they reminisce on their past. And then the generation I come from is… is just discovering these things. So, it's all new to us. And a lot of it is history.

CH: Stephanie Cram of "Winnipeg Noon" spoke to Scott Petrowski yesterday, His Ancient Raven record label recently reissued the 1970 album, "The Lake Winnipeg Fisherman" by Sol Sigurdson. And here's a song from that album: "Remember the J.R. Spear".

[music: "Remember the J.R. Spear" by Sol Sigurdson/Canadian folk]

Part 2: Guinea Worm Disease Eradication, B.C. Moose Rescue

Guinea Worm Disease Eradication

Guest: Donald R. Hopkins

CH: In 1986, there were around 3.5 million human cases of Guinea worm disease. In 2022, there were 13. Guinea worm is very close to being just the second-ever human disease to be eradicated, after smallpox. And the first to be eradicated without a medicine or a vaccine. The scientific name for Guinea worm, a type of parasitic roundworm, is Dracunculus, or “little dragon.” Different countries and cultures have equally sinister names for it -- including the "fiery serpent", and the "silent magistrate". Dr. Donald R. Hopkins is the former vice president and director of all health programs at The Carter Center. In the 1960s, he helped lead the successful campaign to eradicate smallpox and has been at the forefront of Guinea worm eradication since the '80s. He is now a special advisor for Guinea worm eradication at The Carter Center. We reached him in Chicago, Illinois.

NK: Dr. Hopkins, from… from millions of people affected by Guinea worm decades ago, to Just last year, just 13 cases. What was it like for you to reach that milestone?

DONALD R. HOPKINS: Well, I must say that it… it's very pleasant to see the numbers much smaller. But to me, the most important thing is to realize how many fewer people are suffering from this disease than were suffering before because it's just… it's a terrible disease. And the fact that people are suffering from it, despite the fact that we know how to prevent it, was just very, very sad.

NK: On the… the… the patient themselves, I’m just reading about it leading up to this interview. It really sounds like a living nightmare. How would you describe? Because you've obviously seen people up close with this.

DRH: It's… in one sense, it's hard to describe. The pictures help convey some of it. But to be there and actually see the children crying and perceive the… as best we can, the pain that adults and children are in are just… it does terrible things. It's just a… a sea of misery.

NK: How were people becoming infected or being affected by this illness? How was Guinea worm getting to them?

DRH: When… when the worms emerge from the body, that's the… it's the adult female worm. The worm at that stage is a long uterus packed with hundreds of thousands of microscopic larvae, those immature forms of the worm, then discharge in the water where they're taken up by a small water flea. And the water fleas themselves are still barely visible to the naked eye if you hold a glass of such water up to the light. People drinking water with those infected copepods in it then acquire the infection. And one year later, the adult female worms having made it inside the body, the adult… the male worms die. The adult female worms emerge from the body when that part of the body is immersed in fresh water, and the cycle continues.

NK: Hmmm. This is on track now to be the first disease to be eradicated without a medicine or a vaccine. So, how did you do it?

DRH: Well, the main means of attack is to include health education. Once people understand or are convinced that the worm is in the water that they're drinking, one can then urge them to filter their water through a finely woven cloth, and that will remove those infected copepods that have the… the parasite in it. In addition, the… the ideal way to prevent this infection is to provide people with safe drinking water, such as from borehole wells. That water coming from underground cannot be contaminated by people with emerging worms that enter the water supply.

NK: I'm sure you have many, many examples, but is there one that really stands out to you where you saw how much of an impact it made to, you know, get guinea worm out of a particular community?

DRH: In… in two of the communities in Ghana that President Carter visited where they saw Guinea worm for the first time in 1988. The guinea worm problem government of Ghana and partners then went into those two communities, drilled wells, educated the people, provided them with cloth filters, began to use a bait in those communities, taught people that when they… that the guinea worm was coming from their drinking water supply, filter their drinking water supply. And when they had worms coming out, do not go into the water or allow anybody else to go in the water. With those interventions, within one year, more than 95 per cent of the Guinea worms were gone in those two… in those two communities. And within two years, it was gone completely. To me, as a former pediatrician, I just felt happiest about seeing the children going to school and playing and doing the things that children should do rather than lying around crying in great pain because of this terrifying infection. People remained sane with these worms coming out of their bodies because the worms don't just come out.

NK: No. [chuckle]

DRH: It takes several… several weeks often for the worms to emerge. And just speaking for myself, I know… I think I would go nuts.

NK: Well, just hearing about it is… and I'm sure to our listeners, too, at home, it's staggering. And, like I said before, the definition of a living nightmare, for me at least. You know, you have devoted your life to this work. How has it affected you personally?

DRH: Well, it's affected my wife even more than me because she's the one who's been left at home while I have been travelling so much to Africa. For me, it's been a challenge, and I just derive great personal satisfaction from knowing that I've been able to help people this much. Because it's just… it's very sad for me to see people suffering unnecessarily. There are lots of problems that we can't do enough about or anything about, but this is something we… we know how to… how to attack.

NK: Are you hopeful that that number is going to come down to zero? Is that when you will feel fully satisfied?

DRH: Yes. Well, I'll be… I'll be hopeful three-plus years after it's come down to zero. I'll be hopeful when we get to zero. But most satisfied when we get to three… to three-plus years after that.

NK: Dr. Hopkins, such a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you so much.

DRH: Well, thank you for your… for your interest and for doing this.

CH: Dr. Donald R. Hopkins is a special advisor for Guinea worm eradication at The Carter Center. He's in Chicago, Illinois.

[music: acoustic guitar]

Tyree Nichols Officers Charged

CH: Today, Steve Mulroy, the district attorney of Shelby County, Tennessee, made an announcement a lot of people had been waiting for. He said that all five former Memphis police officers involved in an incident with Tyre Nichols earlier this month have been indicted on multiple charges, including second-degree murder and kidnapping. Mr. Nichols was a 29-year-old Black man. He died on January 10 --- three days after a traffic stop and confrontation with Memphis police that sent him to hospital. Now, the public is waiting to see video footage of the incident, which is set to be released tomorrow evening. In a video released on social media yesterday, Memphis Police chief C-J Davis talked about the death of Tyre Nichols for the first time.

SOUNDCLIP

C-J DAVIS: I am a mother. I am a caring human being who wants the best for all of us. This is not just a professional failing. This is a failing of basic humanity toward another individual. This incident was heinous, reckless and inhumane. And in the vein of transparency, when the video is released in the coming days, you will see this for yourselves. I expect you to feel what the Nichols family feels. I expect you to feel outrage in the disregard of basic human rights, as our police officers have taken an oath to do the opposite of what transpired on the video. I expect our citizens to exercise their First Amendment right, to protest, to demand action and results. But we need to ensure our community is safe in this process. None of this is a calling card for inciting violence or destruction on our community or against our citizens. In our hurt, in our outrage and frustration, there is still work to be done to build each other up to continue the momentum of improving our police and community relationships and partnerships. To show those who watch us now that this behaviour is not what will define our community and our great city.

CH: Memphis Police Chief C-J Davis, talking about the death of Tyre Nichols. The 29-year-old Black man died three days after he was stopped by police.

[music: world music]

B.C. Moose Rescue

Guests: Kirk Barharn, Angie Hillmer

CH: Earlier this week, Kirk Barharn had a medical check-up in Penticton, B.C. And while he and his wife, Angie Hillmer, were driving to the appointment, they spotted something. Now, Mr. Barharn broke his ankle in November. But you wouldn't know it from the way he leaped into action to perform a daring rescue.

SOUNDCLIP

KIRK BARHARN: Right there. Right there. Oh, poor thing! He's stuck in the fence.

ANGIE HILLMER: Oh, could you help.

KB: I don't know.

AH: Oh, I think you should help. He's going to die. Oh-oh. Well, on the drive to Penticton, we get to run into a moose that needs help. Look at it. It's all tangled in… it's okay, baby. It's all right. We'll help you. Poor thing. You got stuck there. Careful she doesn't kick you. Now, do you have anything in the car that I can bring up?

KB: Huh?

AH: You have anything in the car that could bring up, like, a screwdriver? Anything to help. See, this is why you need to have this kind of equipment, I guess.

CH: To tell us more about that moose rescue, we reached Kirk Barharn at Link Lake in British Columbia.

NK: Kirk, I want to talk to you about how you did manage to help that moose. But I have to ask you, too. How's your ankle doing?

KB: It's okay.

NK: Yeah?

KB: I'm still limping. However, I'm doing all the things I normally do. It's just a little bit tender.

NK: I was wondering what your doctor thought about you rescuing a moose as you're recovering from a broken ankle?

KB: [chuckle] He just said it was a good story. He didn't say I shouldn't be doing stuff.

NK: Right. He didn't scold you. That's good.

KB: No, because… because it's been close to three months now since I broke it. I'm expected to be using it.

NK: So, as we heard in that clip, you're driving to your medical appointment to get your ankle checked out.

KB: Yes.

NK: You see the moose. Just describe how it was stuck.

KB: It tried to jump over the fence. And because it was quite a steep, steep embankment there, I guess it didn't get enough height to get over the fence. So instead of going over the fence, it got in the fence. And then, when it was tangled, it just flopped over.

NK: Yeah, it was on its side when you're approaching it in the video. It's quite sad. And so, were… were two of its hind legs tangled in the fence.

KB: I think even the front ones were a little bit in there, but the back legs are what immobilized it.

NK: You know, what kind of energy were you getting from the moose? How was it reacting as you… as you approach? Because Angie's right. Your wife's right. You could have been kicked.

KB: Yeah, well, I was on the other side of the fence, so I wasn't too worried about that when it was laying down. Because if… if once its hooves were free, it was on the other side still. So I had the fence as like a barrier. But, yeah, the one hoof came out quite easily, the second one took all my strength to the pull because the wire on… on the fence is quite thick. They call it page wire, and they put that wire up when they built the KVR to stop wildlife and livestock from going on the tracks.

NK: And just tell our listeners what the KVR is.

KB: The Kettle Valley Railway, or now it's the Trans-Canada Trail.

NK: When you say there was a bit of a barrier, I mean, it's really just two… two threads of wire, right? And the post. So, it's not like it was a… it's not that much of a barrier, at least to my eye. [chuckle]

KB: There… I think it's six-inch squares.

NK: Okay.

KB: The wire. It's not… it's not just a strand going, you know, every couple of feet. And it's quite thick wire. Like, this stuff is like 100 years… over 100 years old.

NK: Oh wow. So, that second one you said was tougher. How did you manage to… to get her out? Because I think our colleagues at CBC News wrote you did this all in about three minutes.

KB: Yeah, I just… I just gave it all I had. And, you know, of course, I was torquing around that hoof to… like, moving it around and pulling the… pulling the wire with one hand and the hoof with the other hand. And I was able to wiggle it out.

NK: Yeah.

KB: And as soon as I did that, she was… she was more than happy to take off. [both chuckle]

NK: Yeah.

KB: I don't know who… is it a she or he. I didn't look. [chuckle]

NK: Okay. I was going to ask you that because I heard you referring to her as a she. You know, what's going through your mind throughout this whole thing? Do you feel a kinship because of your ankle?

KB: No. No. No, I just… I don't know.

AH: Adrenaline.

KB: It was adrenaline, I guess. And, yeah, I just had to do what I had to do. I'm an animal lover. So, I mean, I… I… I don't like seeing anything suffer.

NK: I heard Angie there, and we heard her in the clip earlier. Can… can I chat with her for a moment, too?

AH: Oh, sure.

KB: Yeah, she's right here.

NK: Oh! Hi, Angie.

AH: Hello.

NK: You know what you said… you know, you got to be prepared for every situation.

AH: Oh yeah.

NK: Certainly, reporters… I can… I can relate. You always have your kit ready. What were you thinking as Kirk was doing this? You did warn him, be careful. You could get kicked, right? So --

AH: Well, that's what I was thinking because I looked at it in the sense, well, okay, the mouse is down now. I don't know how injured it is. And he's limping up there. What if he kicks him? And now, [all chuckle] I'm here by myself with no equipment and two, a large injured animal, and possibly Kirk injured, too. There's no cell service, by the way, there. We didn't run into anybody else driving when we got there. It was an hour-and-a-bit drive into Penticton. There was nobody else on the road. And, you know, the only other option that we talked about it would be to go back to our place to get the wirecutter. But this thing was so helpless. And, you know, there are other predators in the area that, you know, would take advantage of that. Everybody's hungry in the wintertime.

NK: The timing was perfect that you that you guys drove by.

AH: Yes.

NK: And you mentioned the lack of self-service because I was going to say, you know, some people might have just driven to the next gas station or something or tried to make a call, call Wildlife Services, and Wildlife Services would say, absolutely, don't try these kinds of things on your own.

AH: Which they would. And it is true. However, if we had to backtrack, it would have been about 20-some-odd kilometres to home and about 40 kilometres to where we were going. So, you know, our hands were tied. I mean, you know, Kirk actually is very much into the wildlife. And he's… you know, he's always outside. So, I actually didn't feel uncomfortable, really, per se. Because I did trust him. He does have that instinct, you know? Because he said I'm just basically looking. And… and that thing was really aggressive, I don't think you would approach it. But I kid you not, that moose just laid there as if he knew Kirk and Kirk was going to help. And that was amazing. Like… but I wasn't surprised with that. He is like that with animals. Animals do react to him like that.

NK: So, have you done something like this before? Have you had to rescue another animal?

AH: Well, he's actually… he rescued an eagle once.

KB: A bald eagle.

AH: A bald eagle once. And there was a rooster that he rescued. The bald eagle was really quite the story. We had to call the folks at Critter Care, I think. Yeah, and then we had an owl. Like, there's a lot of stuff here. So, he is very comfortable in the wild. You know, he kind of senses when it is, you know, do not approach. But the moose is the biggest one. And it was very quick. Well, thank you so much, Angie. Let me just go back to Kirk for a second because I want to ask about these other… these other rescues.

KB: Um-hmm.

NK: Kirk, clearly you have a gift beyond just loving animals. What do you think it is?

KB: I don't know. Um, I'm an outdoor person, so, I mean, you know, I think sort of in tune. I'm almost in tune with animals more than people. [all chuckle]

AH: Yeah.

NK: You verify that, Angie? [chuckling]

AH: Absolutely. You know what? I don't think there's a day that he spends totally inside all the time. It's always… and, you know, the respect that he has for the natural environment. We… you know, where we live, we try to use… we don't use any chemicals and things like that. And, you know, make it so the animals, it's their home as well type of thing. We have 12 acres, so.

NK: I'm really glad we could chat. Angie, Kirk, I appreciate it.

AH: Well, thank you very much.

KB: Have a good day.

NK: Take care.

AH: You too. Bye-bye.

KB: Bye.

CH: Angie Hillmer and her husband, Kirk Barharn, at Link Lake in British Columbia -- talking about the moose they found stuck in a fence.

[music: orchestral]

FTR: Anand-Eyre Tanks

CH: Canada is rolling ahead with plans to send four battle-ready tanks to Ukraine. For weeks, Ukraine has been asking its allies for 300 German-made Leopard 2 battle tanks. And now that Germany has approved them for export, Canada is promising to send four -- along with Canadian Armed Forces trainers, to teach Ukrainian soldiers how to operate the vehicles. Defence Minister Anita Anand says Canada may send more in the future but that we need to ensure we have the right number of tanks to train our armed forces and to meet our NATO commitments. For the record, here are Minister Anand and Canada's Chief of Defence Staff, General Wayne Eyre, speaking to reporters today.

SOUNDCLIP

WAYNE EYRE: Compared to many of our European allies, our fleet is relatively small. There are several thousand of these tanks in… in Europe. We also have to take a look at serviceability rates. And the tanks that we are sending are serviceable. They are ready. We also have to take a look at the sense of urgency that is required to get these over. Remember, we live in North America. And to get a 62-tonne tank over there, it's going to take… take some doing. So, over the last number of weeks, we've been planning, working behind the scenes to rapidly get this capability over there. Probably going to do it by or… with our C-17s. Remember, we can only carry one tank per flight. So, the effort to get those over is going to be something serious.

REPORTER: Russia has already upped its attacks today in response to this, saying it is an escalation. Can you respond to that? What do you… what is your response to that?

WE: Well, Russia will use any excuse to… to launch further attacks. And… and they will grab onto any shred of credibility that they can find. But I don't put much credence in… in that. If they want to de-escalate, they can leave Ukraine.

REPORTER: In English, on that point, he said in French the war has changed. But you, at the outset, weren't even going to send lethal weapons. And now, you're sending heavy tanks, so talk about that.

ANITA ANAND: So, this conflict, this illegal invasion of Ukraine, has been unacceptable from day one. That hasn't changed. But what has changed is the need to continue to support Ukraine with the military equipment that it needs in the short and the long term to secure victory and to reclaim territory. And so, when Ukraine has asked for air defence systems, Canada has stepped up with air defence systems. When Ukraine has asked for armoured vehicles, Canada has stepped up with armoured vehicles. And now, Ukraine has asked for tanks. And Canada not only is stepping up today with four tanks but is continuing to evaluate what more we can do in the area of tanks and military aid overall.

REPORTER: He also asked for a no-fly zone, and you never went for that. So, what's changed?

AA: As I said, Canada's actions, Canada's contributions are part of the broader NATO commitment. And our actions are very closely tied to the actions of our allies.

CH: Canada's Minister of Defence, Anita Anand, and Chief of Defence Staff, General Wayne Eyre, speaking to reporters today, after an announcement that Canada will send four Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine.

[music: folk]

Part 3: ChatGPT Kenyan Workers, Ralphie The Dog

ChatGPT Kenyan Workers

Guest: Billy Perrigo

CH: Since launching to the public last fall, millions of users have been drawn to the artificial intelligence program ChatGPT for its ability to generate text on any subject under the sun almost instantly. And it's paying off: OpenAI, the company that created it, has a reported valuation of $29 billion US. But that powerful artificial intelligence was built by human labour. And a new Time Magazine report says some of the dirtiest work was subcontracted out to low-paid Kenyan workers. Their job was to trawl through text harvested from the darkest corners of the Internet, to build the tools that would allow ChatGPT to filter out toxic material. Time reporter Billy Perrigo broke the story. And a word of warning, this conversation touches on disturbing material. We reached Mr. Perrigo in London, England.

NK: Billy, what exactly were these workers in Kenya hired to do?

BILLY PERRIGO: So, the technical term for their work is data labelling. And to understand it, basically, you just need to realize that computers, as we have them right now, and artificial intelligence, as we have it right now, is not intelligent. These are systems that basically can only learn to detect similarities. The task that the workers were actually doing is teaching OpenAI's text generation systems to not output toxic material. And by toxic material, what I mean is descriptions of sexual content, of violence, racism, hate speech, all of that kind of stuff. So, their job was basically to read horrible content day in, day out, and then label it to say, yes, this is sexual violence. This is murder. This is a description of somebody cutting themself. And through those labels, the AI then learns to detect those types of things.

NK: Did the workers who you spoke to, did it… did it surprise them what they were confronted with?

BP: Well, I think the companies were quite open that they were going to be reading that material. But I think lots of them were quite shocked by how much it affected them mentally. And they all complained that the mental health care that they had been promised was not as easy to obtain as they had been promised. So, yeah, they kind of described feeling like when you read this material day in, day out, it kind of seeps into your brain and you kind of have trouble not visualizing it. And, you know, your brain goes down tangents that you might not otherwise want to go down. So, that's kind of the effects that reading this kind of material can have on a person. People described having to, you know, and I looked at a lot of this content myself in the course of reporting this story. There's all kinds of terrible stuff. There's, you know, fan fictions describing graphic rape.

NK: We should say the companies involved have released statements saying there were professional mental health care counsellors available to these workers and other options available to them. But as you were saying this, the people you interviewed said they couldn't actually access it as easily as they had hoped or they had been promised.

BP: Yeah, that's effectively right. They said that effectively it was bad, and there wasn't enough of it. They said that they were given access to group sessions rather than one-on-one sessions. And that the group sessions weren't helpful.

NK: You also saw some of their paystubs. So, how much were they working, and what were they being paid?

PB: Yeah. So these employees could expect to work roughly nine hours a day. There were different types of job roles. The kind of most junior role could earn as low as, you know, $1.32, I think, was the figure per hour. That's assuming that they don't get any performance-related bonuses. The highest could go up to about $2, $2 per hour.

NK: The highest was $2?

PB: Yeah.

NK: Is cheap labour, you know, the reason behind the fact they're going to Kenya and other places that Facebook, as you… as you have reported on, and OpenAI, when we ask why… why are they outsourcing this? Does it come down to the cost-effectiveness for these companies, or is there more to it?

PB: I think there's lots of factors. I think that does definitely play a big part in it. To be slightly more sympathetic to them, if you imagine that you're a company like Facebook that has a big safety problem on your platform and you want to get the most number of content moderator hours out of your buck, then it makes sense to go somewhere where labour is cheaper. By the same token, if those workers are being paid so low that they can't sustain their mental health without getting burnout or PTSD, then often that can be kind of counterproductive. One of the other reasons that they go to places like Kenya especially is because there's a large English-speaking population. And, you know, there's enough unemployment to make a job, even, you know, earning $1.50 or something like that per hour, appear very appealing compared to, you know, the alternatives in the… in the black market and the informal economy, which can carry all kinds of other negative outcomes, especially for women.

NK: And if they were carrying out that work in… in the United States or Canada, perhaps people would feel they could be more vocal about what they thought were poor working conditions.

PB: Oh, absolutely. I mean, nobody knew that Sama was doing this work at all for either OpenAI or Facebook until my reports. And I mean, all you need to do is compare that to the controversy that Facebook faced in the United States. It was sued for $52 million by content moderators in 2020 who took them to court over the, you know, kind of traumatic material that they were expected to look at. And that was very embarrassing for Facebook. It generated a lot of negative media attention. So I think, yes, to the distance and the kind of secretiveness of… of these third-party companies means that, you know, they can keep this kind of unsavoury work at arm's length.

NK: What do you hope listeners and readers, and users of ChatGPT and other AI, what do you hope they take away from this? What do you want them to do?

PB: Yeah, it's a great question. It's a difficult one because AI is, like it or not, it's a part of our world now. And it needs to be safe. There needs to be a form of AI that doesn't sprout toxicity. This work is essential work. There is an argument on the AI side of things that there's ways to develop these types of software that doesn't basically necessitate scraping data from the depths of the Internet and just kind of trying to deal with the negative outcomes of our models that are now toxic because we've done that. At the end of the day, OpenAI is the leader in this space because they acted fastest. And scraping all of that data from the Internet is the fastest way of doing it. There's more intentional, slow ways of doing it that are safer. But, you know, if you're racing to get Silicon Valley investment, then it pays to be fast.

NK: Billy, I really appreciate your time. Thank you.

PB: Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.

CH: Billy Perrigo is a reporter for Time Magazine. We reached him in London, England. OpenAI gave a statement to Time reading, in part: "our mission is to ensure artificial general intelligence benefits all of humanity, and we work hard to build safe and useful AI systems that limit bias and harmful content. Classifying and filtering harmful material is a necessary step in minimizing the amount of violent and sexual content included in training data and creating tools that can detect harmful content."

[music: instrumental]

TTC Assault Victim

CH: For years, the slogan of Toronto's transit commission, or TTC, was "The better way." But lately, it hasn't felt that way, after a series of assaults affecting riders and staff. There have been daily stories about violence on the system, including a woman stabbed on a streetcar, two transit workers swarmed by a group of teenagers, and another was shot with a BB gun. Last month, it was Julia Rady. Ms. Rady was taking the subway to work on December 19th when someone smashed a bottle over her head.

SOUNDCLIP

JULIA RADY: Sitting reading my book as you would normally do, aware of your surroundings because it is Toronto. It's a big city. There's lots of people. When I was hit in the shoulder with a bottle, which put myself and my fellow riders a little bit on higher alert, a little bit suspicious.

ISMAILA ALFA: Um-hmm.

JR: Do I get up and do I move away, or would that be provocative? But I thought it probably best just to sort of stay still, put my head back into my book. And then within, you know, less than a minute later, this individual smacked me on the head quite, quite hard with a… with a bottle. And then everything jumped, too.

IA: So that happened. You have since healed. I understand there was a few stitches involved in that, but you've healed from that. What's it like for you to see now this string of attacks on the TTC that have happened since you were assaulted last month?

JR: I have such tremendous empathy and sympathy for others who have experienced something similar. And in some cases, so much more egregious than what I experienced.

IA: Unions representing transit workers across the country have called for change. They call for more police. And frontline housing workers are coming in... in this city. What would you like to see change?

JR: So, where I think that we do need to look at sort of security, I think it is all of these calls for greater support for people facing mental and housing insecurity. Anything that would animate the circumstances within which a person could make such an awful decision, right, to be violent. And I think we need to direct energies towards that. Perhaps an alert system itself so that riders are aware if they need to ramp up their own internal mindfulness because not everybody has the luxury not to take the TTC. So, helping it become safer would be a good idea.

IA: Have you ridden TTC since the attack?

JR: I have not.

IA: What, if anything, would make you feel safer, more comfortable on the TTC again?

JR: I'm not sure that anything necessarily would. I think, you know, my instance, like so many others, it's random, and it's unpredictable. So, that day it was a random act of violence. So many other days, so many other trips, it wouldn't be. It's something that I wrestled with. I don't… I don't exactly know. I think it's just getting up the gumption and doing it.

CH: That's Julia Rady, who was assaulted while riding the subway in Toronto. She was speaking with Ismaila Alfa, host of CBC Toronto's Metro Morning.

[music: bright piano]

Ralphie The Dog

Guest: Liz Marshall

CH: I'm not going to lie to you. Ralphie the dog is extremely cute. He's a white-and-black French bulldog with enormous brown eyes and an adorable underbite. But the folks at the Niagara County SPCA aren't going to lie to you about him either. From their Facebook page, quote, "Ralphie is a terror in a somewhat small package" and a "fire-breathing demon"... "He's a whole jerk. Not even a half." Unquote. Liz Marshall has been dealing with Ralphie at the SPCA for the last week-and-a-half. She can attest to the entirety of his jerkishness. We reached her in Wheatfield, New York.

NK: So, Liz, I'm looking at some photos of Ralphie right now. There's one he's looking up into the camera, another one looks like he's doing, you know, a nice yoga stretch. He knows how to work a camera clearly. Pretty charming, I think.

LIZ MARSHALL: Oh, yeah, he absolutely does. And that's where we decided that it would be best to kind of not candy coat it right in the… in the beginning. Because we knew that he's, you know, considered a designer dog. He's super cute. But we know that underneath it all, he can be a little bit of a bad boy. But with proper training and the right fit, he's going to be a perfect dog for someone.

NK: Yeah, when you say not candy-coated, the SPCA says he's, quote, "100% a full jerk."

LM: Yeah, that's pretty much it. So, we joke around, and we say he's like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. I go to day one when I first met him, he was, you know, adorable. He was kind of playing with me, a little bit reserved, but nothing… nothing horrible. He's taking traits from me. He was playing with his toy. And then, I gave him a bed, and it was kind of right at the outside of my office door. And I guess he just didn't like the way I walked around him when he was in his bed. And he kind of, like, jumped toward wanting to, you know, bite my ankle. Luckily, a co-worker of mine actually had him on his leash. So she was able to kind of, like, hold him still. But fast forward to today, we've had him just over a week, about nine to 10 days. And, you know, he lets me give him belly rubs. So, it's just that trust. You know, once you gain it from him, he gives me kisses. But then, at the same time, he also was in the room, and he had piddled on the floor. And when a co-worker went to go mop the floor, he then turned into, you know, Dr. Jekyll and was, like, aggressively attacking the mop and the hand and, like, refused to let it go.

NK: So, jerk, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, Fire Breathing demon is another description I read. I mean, as sales pitches go, this is pretty stellar. But I agree that honesty is important. You gotta let people know what they're in for and find the right home. He can also be vain. You wrote about this online.

LM: Oh yeah. So, we took him on a field trip, and we took him to a local crafting store called JOANN fabrics, and we realized that he loved staring at himself in the mirror.

NK: Of course! [chuckle]

LM: So I took a photo of that, and we posted on social media. And we realized he liked fabrics and yarns because he would put his nose and all of that stuff.

NK: Okay, this is… this is a quite a complex character profile that's… that's emerging. But in all seriousness, what do you think… you know, there's something in his past that… that made him become this way, I think. What happened? What do you think?

LM: Yeah. And that's why we were very direct and honest. Because, you know, he's been rehomed twice already. And we really don't want him to be rehomed a third time. We want to make sure that he's going with the appropriate family and household. So, I mean, we're speculating, we don't know 100 per cent with the first original owner, but we think that maybe he was just a little bit too much, a little bit too much of a bad boy attitude, kind of a lot to handle. So he was then rehomed to a second household, and this was more like a family. So there was kids and another dog. And then, Ralphie in the second household was terrorizing the kids and the dog, which is why he ended up with us. We do know that the first owner started him off with board and train and tried to do other things with him. But through our own work with him, we realized that if he is aggressive, he doesn't like it if you're aggressive back. So, we don't really know if, like, the first owner was kind of a little bit too much, but he definitely needs reinforcement. It's just going to be how you do it because he does have tendencies to be a little bit of a fire-breathing demon, [NK chuckles] so you got to just be careful. But we do feel that once he is in the right fit with no other dogs right now or no small children, with somebody who has time to work with him, he's just going to be absolutely, you know, lovable with somebody. But he's still going to have his issues because we do know that he's not really horribly housebroken, but that's… that's something that can be worked on.

NK: So, you listed some of the ideal traits of the… the kind of home he would be the best in. Just briefly, again, list those for us. So, childless. No other dogs.

LM: Um, I prefer, like, an adult household. Somebody who is going to have time because he's definitely going to need some work put in. But he loves playing with his toys. He loves going on walks. When we took him out, he wasn't bad with any human. But they need to understand that it's going to be slow approaches and he doesn't like other dogs, so they need to be mindful of he is cute, and he's getting a lot of popularity, but they're going to still have to kind of keep him away from places like, you know, pet stores where there might be a lot of other dogs because he absolutely does not like dogs as of right now. But with the proper training and the time, it is possible for his future that he could be around other dogs, just not at this moment.

NK: How hopeful are you that you'll find the right match?

LM: We're super hopeful. I mean, we're actually… there's a running joke at our shelter right now. So, we have a map up, and we highlight all of the states that have been interested in Ralphie. And right now, we're at like 41 states where people have reached out.

NK: Right.

LM: And even outside our country. So, it's just absolutely insane. But obviously, we're not going to be able to reach everyone. But based on the response, we're super hopeful that we're going to be able to find his home sooner than later.

NK: It's a stiff vetting process, it looks like, to make sure. But I hope he finds the right home. Thanks so much, Liz.

LM: Oh, you're welcome. Thank you.

CH: Liz Marshall works for the Niagara County SPCA. She was in Wheatfield, New York. To see some photos of Ralphie, you can head to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: electronic]

Alta Stolen Fossil

CH: The verdict is both historic and prehistoric. This week, an Alberta man who dug up fossilized dinosaur footprints from a protected area in northeastern B.C. was fined and sentenced. Bennward Dale Ingram and three other people used power tools and a sledgehammer to extract tracks from the rock at Six Peaks Dinosaur Track site near Hudson's Hope in 2020. Mr. Ingram was charged with, and pleaded guilty to, one count of unlawfully excavating on Crown land. He'll have to pay a $15,000 fine and spend 25 days in jail. Charles Helm is a paleontology researcher and scientific advisor to B.C.'s Tumbler Ridge Museum Foundation. He hopes the case offers a lesson.

SOUNDCLIP

CHARLES HELM: If in the long term this raises awareness of this kind of thing and lets people realize there are consequences to this kind of activity, at least something will be gained from this sad episode.

SOUNDCLIP

WILLIE SELLARS: Well, I mean, we have to sit down and discuss next steps in Phase One and Two. The tricky part about the St Joseph's Mission site is it owned by multiple property owners. It's private property there. It's not IR land or provincial land. The initial site where the schools are, and the outbuildings are, is… is one owner. And then as you kind of get to the outlying areas, you know, you deal with multiple stakeholders. There's a railroad that goes through there, for example. There's multiple ranches. There's… you know, areas of interest that stretch far and wide. The multiple runaway trails that… that we've been able to identify through the research and through the interviews. I mean, there is just so much more to do in Phase Three and consecutive phases after that. But there is this bigger, broader discussion to be had about what had happened with Phase One and Two. And we had all the of the chiefs on yesterday. And, you know, a fraction of the conversation is around what is going to happen with that site in years to come? How do we commemorate and how do we honour those ancestors that have passed on and those that are living today and really hold up those that are suffering, those intergenerational trauma survivors that are, you know, are still battling with the history and legacy of residential school in Saint Joseph's Mission? You know, I'd like to have all the answers for you, but… but I don't because, I mean, it's going to be a collaborative approach between not only Indigenous communities, but the province of British Columbia and the Canadian government to… to get to the bottom and will find healing and achieve reconciliation around these things.

SHELLY JOYCE: You mentioned that the owners of this property are private landowners. Have… have they been sympathetic and supportive in… in the work that needs to be done here to unravel the truth?

WS: They've been unbelievable. And they've been, you know, very… like, the… the collaborative approach between the private landowners and our investigation team in holding up our culture well, you know, keeping their values in line as well has been awesome. And that's all that we could ask for during these times because, you know, we're very fortunate that way that we do have property owners that are allowing us on-site to conduct those investigative works because it could be completely different if they weren't cooperative. And, I mean, they want to participate, and they want to contribute to truth as well.

CH: That was Kúkpi7 Willie Sellars of Williams Lake First Nation speaking with host Shelley Joyce on Daybreak Kamloops today. And a reminder that there is a 24-hour Residential School crisis line for people affected by these latest findings. The number is 1-866-925-4419.

[music: ambient]

Couch Stuck

SOUNDCLIP

ROSS: All right, ready? Turn

CHANDLER: I don’t think we can turn anymore.

RACHEL: Ross, I just don’t think it’s going to fit.

ROSS: Oh yeah, it will. Turn.

CHANDLER: Pivot. Piviot. Pivot!

ROSS: Shut up, shut up, shut up!

CH: "Pivot! Pivot!" [NK laughs] If you're a fan of the show Friends, you'll recognize that scene. Not to mention that signature '90s sitcom canned laughter. Ross, Rachel and Chandler are struggling to get Ross's new sofa up the stairs into his apartment. Even if you haven't seen that episode, you've probably, at some point, tried to move a piece of furniture you had no business even attempting to lift -- let alone manoeuvre up a flight of stairs.

NK: First of all, my sister and I do that bit on the regular. [CH chuckles] But who could forget your mission, kind sir, to get a La-Z-Boy in this studio?

CH: That mission is ongoing. [NK laughs] In hindsight, that was a bit ambitious. But it’s gonna look fantastic in here -- if they ever get it out of the elevator. Now, eventually, you do need to accept that some jobs are best left to the professionals. Which I'm sure Luke Ansell thought he was doing when he ordered a brand new sofa to his brand new flat in Bournemouth, U.K. -- delivery included -- from a very reputable-sounding online retailer called "designer-sofas-4u.co.uk."

NK: Yeah, I'm looking at the sofa now. It kind of looks designer. Genuine leather. Elegant pipping and detail around the armrests. Perfectly positioned… well, wedged actually into a staircase. So, how? Why?

CH: Well, good questions. And probably the same one Luke Ansell asked himself when he discovered his special delivery had arrived -- sort of. He says the sofa got stuck when delivery workers attempted to just jam it up his staircase. And they kind of tried to dislodge it -- damaging his plaster walls in the process. And then they just...gave up. They just left the sofa suspended in the stairwell. As Mr. Ansell told the BBC, quote, "It's an absolute nightmare. They even asked me to sign a note to say it had been delivered."

NK: Of course, the company has disputed Mr. Ansell's version of the story. It claims Mr. Ansell discussed the issue of the stairs with their customer services department and advised the delivery workers to, quote: "Give it a go!" Unquote. [CH chuckles] An internal investigation is now underway. The company has offered to replace the sofa and pay for the damage to Mr. Ansell's walls. And reassured him that the replacement sofa would be provided with "curbside delivery" only.

CH: That seems like a sensible solution. Clearly, though, both sides are couching their statements -- but hopefully that cushions the blow for Mr. Ansell.

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January 26, 2023 Episode Transcript

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