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The AIH transcript for January 23, 2023

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is "As It Happens."

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

NK: The Lunar New Year eclipsed. It was supposed to be a time of family gatherings and celebration. But people in Monterey Park are grieving the deaths of at least 11 people killed when a gunman opened fire in a dance studio.

CH: Back order. A federal court judge orders the Canadian government to repatriate four men who've been detained by Kurdish forces in Syria because of their alleged ties to ISIS.

NK: The crocs of the matter. The mummified remains of 10 crocodiles are unearthed in an ancient Egyptian tomb. One of the archaeologists involved tells us it is definitely the coolest thing she has ever worked on.

CH: Flipping the scripts. An Alabama farmer's secret emerges after his death. For 10 years, he'd been slipping cash to the local pharmacist to cover the cost of prescriptions his neighbours couldn't afford to fill.

NK: Caught not holding the bag. A Newfoundland man whose luggage was lost by Air Canada tracks it to a Philadelphia restaurant, an establishment -- and a city -- he's never even been to.

CH: And… the horn of a dilemma. The world recoils as two evil forces prepare for a legal battle. On one side, the Black Eyed Peas song “My Humps”. On the other, a unicorn toy that poops out sparkly slime.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that knows all that glitters is definitely not gold.

Part 1: Monterey Park Shooting, The Farmer And The Pharmacist, Egypt Crocodile Mummies

Monterey Park Shooting

Guest: Thomas Wong

CH: The Star Ballroom Dance Studio in Monterey Park, California was a place for community members to gather, socialize, and practice their steps. And now, it's a crime scene -- after a gunman opened fire in the predominantly Asian community on the weekend of the Lunar New Year. Eleven people were killed. As we go to air tonight, we're learning more about the victims, who were in their fifties, sixties and seventies. One was described by family as a "regular" at the dance studio -- known for her warm smile and kindness. In a Facebook post, a dance instructor described another reported victim as the "heart of Star Ballroom." Officials say the gunman killed himself as the police closed in. Thomas Wong is a local council member. We reached him earlier today at city hall in Monterey Park, just a few blocks from the scene of the shooting.

NK: Councilmember Wong, I just wanted to say thank you for making time for us on what is. I can only imagine a very difficult day.

THOMAS WONG: Yeah, it is. It's… the city still in mourning. Had some measure of closure to a certain extent yesterday with the stopping of the killer, the shooter. But today, I think we continue to grieve together.

NK: So many people were in the midst of the Lunar New Year celebrations. Was that what you were doing when you started seeing this?

TW: Yeah, right. This weekend was the Lunar New Year here and around the world. A lot of Asian-American and Asian communities were celebrating. And for this to happen adds an additional link in terms of the tragedy for… for us. And adds an amount of hurt what should have been an opportunity right at a time where family and friends, and loved ones come together to celebrate and welcome a time of hope, a new year. Instead, it was a time of extraordinary difficulty and tragedy. And we're grappling with that now. And I think I, like many others, are… are still trying to process this and understand. And a lot of questions out there and just trying to soak in certain care and bring the community together.

NK: Yeah, I can hear it in your voice because you represent folks, and you're a leader in the community, but you're a human being, and you're an Asian-American. So how are you doing?

TW: I'm doing okay, considering. I… it hasn't quite hit me. It's been almost non-stop since yesterday morning. My colleagues and I on the city Council and our mayor and regional leaders have been just here trying to see how we can help and provide support to the community and leadership. We've been trying to take breaks and take care of ourselves here and there, and it's been very encouraging to have all your friends, neighbours, colleagues from other cities, and surrounding communities show up and show support. And there's been a great outpouring. It's been encouraging to see everyone come together, and especially those in this community, in our neighbourhoods, really show concern and care for each other and to really come together in this time to check in on each other and to provide support.

NK: When I think of dance studios, they're such, you know, wonderful places, [warm chuckle] safe spaces, joyful spaces. And I just… I understand this particular dance studio was… was popular with the Asian community. Just what can you tell us about it?

TW: Yeah, it's a long-time staple in our community, in that neighbourhood. It provided a place for particularly our senior Asian-Americans in the community to have just have a safe space to dance, take lessons, have fun with each other. I have friends who have taken lessons there, and were taking lessons there. And I imagine I believe the evening of the shooting was just like many others in our community and other businesses and in homes, which is a gathering of friends and others to celebrate and welcome the New Year.

NK: Did you know… based on what you've seen so far, did you know anyone that was involved, or the staff?

TW: So far, I haven't seen anyone directly that I know as one of the victims. I have heard from at least one friend who has a relative that was one of the victims, And as next of kin continue to be notified, I imagine there will be more in our community with close ties to those who have passed away.

NK: You're bracing yourself for that. It sounds like.

TW: Yeah.

NK: Have you learned anything further about the person who was responsible?

TW: We haven't. The investigation continues to go on. I think it'll be several days or weeks before we have much more definitive information. I've seen media reports around where he was living, at least recently. There's just a lot of speculation out there to go anywhere with it before we hear more from out of the investigation officially. A lot of questions I have and the community has about motive. What was behind this? What was the context? What drove this? And what can we do going into the future to stop things like this from happening again? I'm hoping to… in the next… in the coming days and weeks, we'll bring… be able to bring a little bit of closure and answer some of those questions.

NK: The elders in the Asian community are… are so crucial, and so respected and revered. Is there any specific support for seniors in the community right now, given what has happened?

TW: Our elders are precious to us, and we have a very vibrant senior elder population here in Monterey Park and in the surrounding communities. We're providing support to them and to anyone else who has been impacted by this at our community's seniors' centre. It's called the Langley Senior Center. Also, just a short way away from the scene of the shooting. The centre is open every day, at least through Friday, to provide specific services to victims, their families and others who have been impacted by this in our community.

NK: And just before we let you go, Councilmember Wong, throughout the pandemic and since, there has been an increase in anti-Asian racism across the United States. And now, this… this deadly incident. I just wondered what you'd want to say to people in the community across the country but also around the world who are watching and hurting even more now.

TW: Yeah, it's… it's… we don't know the motive for this specific case, at least not yet. But there's no doubt. There's no question that this was an act of violence and hate. And an act like this is always meant to instill fear in our community. And regardless of that, our community's going to come together. I have already seen it, and I'm seeing it. We're coming together. We're supporting each other. And we're gonna come out of this stronger. And I truly believe that. And I'm seeing that as community members and my own family who live… my parents live in the city as well. We've been all reaching out to each other to check in and to provide support and our neighbours as well. And I fully expect that we will pull through this. We have a long period of grieving and mourning and recovery, but we… we will heal, and we'll do it together.

NK: Councilmember Wong, thank you very much.

TW: Thank you.

CH: That was Councilmember Thomas Wong, in Monterey Park, California.

[music: world music]

The Farmer And The Pharmacist

Guest: Brooke Walker

CH: Hody Childress left a secret behind. The Alabama farmer died on New Year's Day. But 10 years ago, Mr. Childress had a conversation with his local pharmacist that kicked off a monthly covert operation. An operation that helped the people in Mr. Childress's community in ways he never knew -- and is still helping them, even now that he's gone. Brooke Walker is the owner of Geraldine Drugs. We reached her outside Geraldine, Alabama.

NK: Brooke, can you take me back 10 years ago when you had that conversation with Hody Childress? What did he say?

BROOKE WALKER: So, I'm in the pharmacy working, and he pulls me to the side, and he just says, I need to ask you a question. And he asked if there's ever anyone that can't afford their medication. So I told him, unfortunately, that does happen. So he handed me a bill that was folded up, and he said, the next time that happens, I want you to use this. I don't want anyone to know that it came from me, and I don't want to know who you use it on. And that was all he said. And so when he left, I looked, and he had handed me a folded up hundred dollar bill. So I put it on my desk, had an envelope.

NK: What did you think when you… when you saw the amount, first of all?

BW: I mean, I was pretty shocked. [chuckle] You know, he… he was very kind. So I wasn't surprised that he had done something nice. But I was very surprised at the amount.

NK: And when did you realize that this was going to be more than just that single $100 bill?

BW: A couple of weeks after I used the money, he returned. And he didn't give me any details. All he did was he looked at me; he handed me another folded-up bill and said, you know what to do with this? And I thought, wow, he's doing it again. [NK chuckles] Like, this is incredible. Still, in my mind, not... not thinking it would go further than this second transaction. [chuckles]

NK: Yeah. And how did you use the money?

BW: Typically, someone would come in from the emergency room with an unexpected medication, so we would use it for urgent care situations. I had a family that her daughter was sick, and they could not afford the medication. I've had people that have had, you know, heart attacks and had lots of medication that they needed that they weren't expecting. You know, all sorts of scenarios. But I just kind of would, you know, wait until I saw the need and then be able to say, hey, you know what, If you're going to have trouble affording this, I have a solution.

NK: What do they say in response?

BW: [chuckle] A lot of times, it was tears.

NK: Oh.

BW: Probably the most memorable moment was a young mom. And so we were able to, you know, tell her that it was covered, that we had an anonymous donor and that he always just said, tell them this is a blessing from the Lord. So, of course, she was emotional and crying. But what surprised me the most is a few months later, she came back in, and she said, I want to return the money that you guys gave to me to pay it forward. And so that's when I realized how big of an impact he… you know, he wasn't just making a difference on that day that someone got their medication for free, but he was changing the lives of these people.

NK: As you said, you know, it was one time, two times, but it went on… 10 years this went on.

BW: Right.

NK: And we don't know Hody Childress, but what did this money mean to him? He wasn't a wealthy man, as I understand it.

BW: He wasn't. You know, he was a farmer. He was retired. He didn't live a luxurious lifestyle. He was just a good ol' country boy. So, I would think that this would probably be a big deal for him.

NK: Hmm. Were people always trying to… to find out from you who… who this generous donor was?

BW: Surprisingly, I was never a single time. They did tell me, please tell them thank you. You know, they wanted me to give him a message, but they never asked for a name.

NK: Did you pass on those messages?

BW: Well, I did. The very first time, I called him. And I said, hey, I just wanted you to know how much this meant to this family. And that's when he said, I don't want to know any details. But on occasion, you know, I would say you have no idea what a blessing this is. But that's probably one of my biggest regrets is not telling him more. Even though he didn't want to know the details, I just… I wish that I would have told him how much it meant to me on a personal level to be able to witness this.

NK: How do you think he would have felt about all the attention?

BW: [chuckle] Yeah, I think about that a lot because he would not like the attention at all. [NK laughs] And I think, oh, my goodness, [chuckle] he would… he would definitely not like to know that you could Google his name right now and find stories about his kindness because that… he just… he wanted no credit. And he made that so clear. Even when he came in every month, he was so quiet about it. You know, he would hand it to me folded up. It was always 100. Sometimes it was multiple hundreds.

NK: Oh wow.

BW: But he always said the same thing. You know what to do with this. And there was nothing more. He wanted no credit.

NK: How many people do you think Mr. Childress helped over the years?

BW: You know, just with the medication, I'm going to say one a week. But just the blessing that he was that carried forward through those people are… I mean, that's going to be hundreds.

NK: So what happens now? Has someone else brought you a secret envelope?

BW: Well, in the beginning, his daughter and son, his family, his niece, they said we want to keep this alive in his name. And I was like, oh my goodness. I just assumed that when the money was gone, it would be gone. But then, people in the community begin to call and say, do you need help to keep it… keep it going? And now, I've had people from Washington. I had someone call me this morning that was from Miami. He said, do you have someone keeping it alive? And I said, I've had so many calls. I'm overwhelmed. And he said, well, then, if it's okay with you, maybe I'll go to my local pharmacy and start my own Hody Childress fund. And I thought, you know, that's a great idea. And he did say, if your fund gets to zero, save my number and call me. But if you have enough, I think I'll do something local. And I love that because people outside of Geraldine need help. People all over America need help. And if everybody took that message home. How incredible that could be.

NK: Brooke, I'm sorry again for your loss, but thank you very much for taking the time.

BW: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

CH: Brooke Walker is the owner of Geraldine Drugs. We reached her outside Geraldine, Alabama.

[music: uke!!!]

Egypt Crocodile Mummies

Guest: Bea De Cupere

CH: Usually, if an ancient Egyptian tomb makes the news, it's because someone found a super old sarcophagus inside. And then, the internet begs archeologists not to open it because that's where the vengeful mummies will come from. And we really, really do not need any more bad luck. Well, get ready for a whole new plague to be unleashed upon the Earth. Because in the Qubbat al-Hawa tomb on the west bank of the Nile River, archaeologists have discovered a whole new kind of mummy -- crocodile mummies. Great! Their findings were published this week in the peer-reviewed scientific journal Plos One. Bea De Cupere is an archaeozoologist… say that three times fast! At the Royal Belgian Institute of Natural Sciences and a co-author of the study. We reached her in Zwalm, Belgium.

NK: Bea, what a moment it must have been when this discovery was made when you set your eyes on these mummified crocodiles. What did you think?

BEA DE CUPERE: Well, it was amazing because the crocodiles, they are in a very good condition. And it was really very impressive to see those skulls and other bones, other materials. It was really very impressive.

NK: The remains of ten mummified crocodiles and at least one of them is completely intact. It's quite stunning to look at.

BDC: Yeah, because the skin itself, it's still preserved. So it's like almost a real… a real crocodile just lying there in front of you.

NK: How old are these mummified crocodiles?

BDC: Well, it's a little bit difficult to tell, but based on the archaeological context in which they were found, and also the fact that there was no bitumen or resin used to to preserve these crocodiles, we assumed that they are pre-Ptolemaic. So that means before 300 before Christ.

NK: Wow!

BDC: So let's say 2,000… more older than 2,300 years.

NK: And it sounds like you were saying, in terms of the mummification process, is it different than how the pharaohs were mummified?

BDC: Well, they are already doing mummification for a long time. And in the case of mammal mummification, at other places, it has been indicated or shown that that mummies were, at the beginning, that they didn't use resin for the mummification process. While in later periods that they did, a lot like, for example, during the Greco-Roman period, they used a lot of resin, and they didn't do that before.

NK: And so, but just in terms of these… these creatures themselves, the crocodiles, what… what did you find in terms of the process that was used?

BDC: Well, so there was one individual which was almost complete, and the skin and everything was preserved. And when we looked at the belly, we didn't see any cut mark that… or anything else. And then, also we found in the inside of the belly, we found some gastruloids and gastruloids that are little stones that a crocodile will swallow to become heavier so that they have more stability in the water. And we found that those stones still present in the… in the belly. So it means that the intestines that they were not removed at the moment that they were prepared as a mummy.

NK: That's so interesting. And I didn't know crocodiles did that.

BDC: [laughing] Yeah, me neither. We all had to look it up and check for what are we seeing? [both chuckle] What have you and the team learned about why the Egyptians mummified crocodiles? The reason why they were there is because they were votive mummies for… as a… as a gift to the god Sobek. And this god, Sobek, is the god of fertility and of water. And he's very often depicted as a crocodile or as a man with a crocodile head. We know there is a cemetery, or how shall I say? Or a centre of the cult of this about god Sobek 50 kilometres north of this site. But it's a little bit more recent than the place where these crocodiles were found. So… and there, you have many crocodiles also complete ones, crocodile mummies, let's say. But then they are all impregnated with this resin or bitumen. And also, have, like, bandages around them. So they are from a younger period in time than the tomb in Qubbat al-Hawa.

NK: These are even older. You're an archaeozoologist, which means you study the remains of animals from archaeological sites. What exactly were you looking for when… when studying these crocodiles?

BDC: Well, when we first went on to the site, we just wanted to see what we have. We just observed everything, described everything. So we looked at the size of the animals. We measured the bones. We looked for all kind of traces. And then also, we wanted to know which kind of species it is. So because in the past, there were two different species in the Nile, the Nile crocodile and the West African Nile… the West African crocodile. And they found… we… we assumed that the both species are also among these crocodiles from the tomb. Whereas nowadays, the West African crocodile doesn't live anymore. It doesn't occur anymore in… in Egypt.

NK: How… how does this discovery rate in terms of the projects you worked on in your career so far?

BDC: [chuckling] This is about the most impressive thing that I have ever seen.

NK: Yeah?

BDC: Yeah. It was just as I set it aside from this crocodile, this… the complete crocodile. Just to see this material. Normally, I'm used to working with fragments, so I don't have often complete skeletons, so. And yeah. And then if you have 10 crocodiles, it's… it's really amazing.

NK: Bea, thank you so much.

BDC: Oh, you're welcome.

CH: Bea De Cupere is an archaeozoologist at the Royal Belgian Institute of Natural Sciences. She was in Zwalm, Belgium. And we have more on that story -- including some photos of the crocodiles -- on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[music: hip-hop]

“My Humps” Pooping Unicorn

CH: You know that Nietzche quote about how, "when you look long into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you"?

NK: Yeah, it's engraved on my wall. But, yeah, are you being a tad melodramatic?

CH: Am I, Nil? Am I? Can you honestly say that "My Humps" by Black Eyed Peas isn't the abyss?

NK: [chuckle] He spent all day thinking about this, you guys. I will let the song do the work, here. Let's do what we have to do, you know, as a radio program. Let's just play part of "My Humps". Deep breaths, Chris. And get it out of the way.

CH: Okay, just part. Okay. Reynold, hit it.

[music: “My Humps” by Black Eyed Peas/Pop]

CH: Okay. Okay, that’s enough. Reynold, God, why did you have to play it non-stop for three hours?

NK: That was 16 glorious seconds.

CH: It felt longer. Okay. Well, that… that was the Black Eyed Peas' song "My Humps". Widely and correctly considered one of the worst songs of all time. But get ready, Nil, because in a few seconds, we have to play a song that may actually be worse than that. And we have to do that because of a story in Variety magazine. The headline: "Black Eyed Peas’ ‘My Humps’ Ripped Off by Pooping Unicorn Toy, Lawsuit Claims". You probably need more information. And you're going to hate it, but here it is: Poopsie Slime Surprise is among the top pooping unicorn toys on the market right now. [coughs] And now, the Black Eyed Peas' record company is suing Poopsie Slime Surprise over its latest commercial. Which sounds like this. I'm so sorry.

SOUNDCLIP

[music: this is a clear ripoff, not even parody. They’ve just changed “junk” and “humps” to “poop”]

CH: No. No. No. Make it stop! [NK laughs] Oh, my ears! Nil, are you okay? It looks as though you bit through the cord to your headphones.

NK: That so great! No, that was… that was maybe a darker abyss than the first one.

CH: Yeah, I think it was. Anyway, BMG Records is suing for copyright infringement. Essentially saying, I guess, that that second abyss is a rip-off of the first abyss.

NK: I don't know how the legal case will turn out. But in a larger sense, we have all already lost.

CH: Absolutely. And, you know, we apologize for bringing all this horror up. Just taking care of abyssness.

[music: ambient]

Part 2: Canadian ISIS Men Back, N.L. Man’s Luggage In Philly

Canadian ISIS Men Back

Guest: Lawrence Greenspon

CH: A federal court judge has ordered Ottawa to bring four Canadians back from Syria. The four are being held by Kurdish forces for allegedly having ties to ISIS. The judge ordered their return on Friday -- after the settlement of a case on Thursday, whereby the government will bring back 19 Canadian women and children who've also been in Kurdish detention. Lawrence Greenspon is a lawyer representing three of the men. We reached him in Bonita Springs, Florida.

NK: Well, Lawrence, we know the federal government is considering appealing this decision. So, at this point, what does Friday's decision mean for these four men?

LAWRENCE GREENSPON: Well, we start with the agreement that was reached on Thursday. The… all the women and children were agreed to by the Global Affairs to be repatriated within a confidential but reasonable timeframe. As far as the men were concerned, the following day, Friday, the decision came out from the judge, basically requiring them to repatriate the men as soon as possible. And it's everything we've been fighting for... for the last more than three years.

NK: Have you spoken to them since? You know, knowing that an appeal could come, if you spoken to them, I wondered what their reaction was?

LG: No. I have spoken to their families, and they are, of course, delighted with the ruling of the court that came out on Friday.

NK: You know, in his judgement, Justice Henry Brown, it was in our… one of our CBC news articles and our colleagues highlighted one excerpt in particular that struck me as well. The conditions of the men, quote, Justice Brown writes, the men are even more dire than those of the women and children who Canada has just agreed to repatriate. How would you describe those conditions, sir?

LG: They're horrific. And they've been that way for years. For the men, the Canadian men, that are being detained there. They're there in cells that were meant for three, and they've got 30 people in them. They're unhygienic. They're dangerous. The men are suffering both physically and psychologically. Recently, one of the prisons was bombed. So, all of that evidence was before his honour, and he quite appropriately described their situation. And that's a big part of the reason why he delivered this judgment so quickly. Once we advise the court as to the women and children, he was intending… it's clear from the judgment he was intending to rule on the women, children and men and do so very quickly. And then, immediately after, we advise the court of the agreement that next day is when his decision came out.

NK: The federal government, as you know, has argued the Charter of Rights does not oblige them to… to bring these… these men home. What did Justice Brown make of that argument?

LG: Well, the federal government is wrong. [chuckling] It's been since 1985 that the Supreme Court of Canada established the principle that if Canadian's rights and freedoms are being violated under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, then they have the right to apply to a court to obtain a remedy that is appropriate and just in the circumstances. That's been the law for almost 40 years. And what this decision does is it extends that argument to Canadians anywhere in the world where their rights are being violated. And... and it's important in this case because it's a unique situation, the government has the ability to stop that violation. Then in those circumstances, the court is prepared to order, and did order, that they should… they should stop the violations of Canadians rights.

NK: And Justice Brown also wrote, quote, there's no evidence any of them have been tried or convicted, let alone tried in a manner recognized or sanctioned by international law, unquote.

LG: Absolutely. The… the… sorry, go ahead.

NK: Well, I was going to say, at least one of the men has admitted in at least one interview to having joined ISIS. So, what do they face in Canada if they do end up coming back?

LG: Well, we know this much. They've been there in excess of three years. They're in dire conditions, as the judge described. They're in prisons, they're Canadian, and they haven't been charged with anything. So, my position has always been they're Canadians. They're entitled to be brought home if their rights are being violated. And… and the Canadian government has been invited to bring these men, women and children home. In those circumstances, we have in the Department of Justice, lawyers and paralegals and secretaries, investigators, all kinds of people that are hired to investigate and obtain evidence and bring home that evidence and then, where it's warranted, prosecute individuals for crimes against humanity or terrorism. And we have both the means, and we have the laws under which any of the men or women could be prosecuted. So this idea that, you know, we may as well just leave them there and rot is not something that we were… we were prepared to agree to, and that's why we brought the application.

NK: What would you say to listeners, and I'm sure part of what you just said is part of what you'd say, but listeners who are… who are tuned in to this and these stories and are upset about the idea and are not comfortable with the return of anyone with even alleged ties to ISIS.

LG: Yeah, well, I would say this. Bring them home. And if you have evidence that they have committed crimes, then charge them and prosecute them and proceed with a fair trial rather than just letting them rot, uncharged, unlawfully detained in prisons and detention camps over there. The Canadian government has already done this in respect of Kimberly Polman, whose name is known and a woman in Montreal and her two children. Kimberly Polman is slated for a hearing, a terrorist peace bond hearing, for conditions to be imposed upon her while she's living in British Columbia. And the woman from Montreal has been charged with four terrorism offences. So, there's no question that the Canadian government can bring all of these individuals home. And the question then becomes is, well, what happens when they get here? The Canadian government has the tools to prosecute, where appropriate, any of the individuals for alleged crimes.

NK: How long does the federal government have now to decide if it will, in fact, appeal?

LG: I believe their appeal period is 30 days.

NK: Do you think they'll appeal?

LG: I… I don't want to speculate on it. I mean, you could look at Justice Brown's ruling. That is one very comprehensive and, I would say, courageous ruling. Good luck. [chuckle] Good luck trying to find something wrong with it.

NK: Laurence, thank you very much for your time. Thank you.

LG: You're welcome.

CH: Lawrence Greenspon is a lawyer for three Canadian men who've been detained by Kurdish forces in Syria for allegedly having ties to ISIS. We reached him in Bonita Springs, Florida.

[music: country]

Winnipeg Library Killing

CH: Last month, someone was stabbed to death in a place that's usually a quiet sanctuary: Winnipeg's Millennium Library. The library closed after the death of Tyree Cayer, who was killed two weeks before Christmas. Four youths were arrested and charged with manslaughter in connection with his killing. In that time, the library instituted new security measures -- and today, it reopened. At the time of his death, the 28-year-old Mr. Cayer was dealing with homelessness and mental health issues. But his mother, Tania Cayer, told CBC he was also a former football star, who had been known to literally give a stranger the shirt off his back.

SOUNDCLIP

TANIA CAYER: When I told you I want people to know his story, I want them to know that he was a normal kid. Single mom. Yeah, we struggled. I mean, we're low-income. Mama always worked. We kind of became estranged for a couple of years. We were just starting to connect again over the past few months. We were just starting to send each other messages again. And… and then this happened. So, I am… I'm dealing with a lot of guilt as a mother. And his mental health was not under control. He was not taking care of himself in that respect. So he wasn't taking his medication. And he was just kind of living moment to moment. He didn't look forward to a future. It was just kind of in and out. You know, the day of the murder, he was simply at the library, like any other library patron. He goes there all the time to use the Wi-Fi, like anybody else, use the computers. He was talking to his friends no more than 45 minutes prior to the incident, planning going in to go watch Sunday football. The group of youths causing trouble all day finally were getting kicked out. And I don't know my son's involvement. Knowing him, knowing Tyree, his involvement was probably trying to be a superhero, and probably trying to either help security. Probably trying to maybe help kick these kids out. Who knows? Who knows where his state of mind? I just know that my son was not there picking fights.

CH: Tania Cayer is the mother of Tyree Cayer who was killed at Winnipeg's Millennium Library last month. The Millennium Library reopened this morning, with new security measures in place.

[music: ambient guitar]

N.L. Man’s Luggage In Philly

Guest: Darryl Pope

CH: They were apart for an entire month. And Darryl Pope feared he would never see his trusty companion again. But now, at least, Mr. Pope has been reunited with his luggage. Before Christmas, the Newfoundland man was travelling home from Congo to St. John's. He flew Air Canada from Paris back to Canada and arrived safely -- but his bag didn't make it. That's when the story takes a bizarre turn. Mr. Pope tracked his bag to an inexplicable location: a restaurant in Philadelphia. And he says Air Canada was no help getting it back -- although the airline has now apologized. We reached Darryl Pope in Paradise, Newfoundland.

NK: So, Darryl, we'll start with good news, which is… which is lovely to do. You finally have your bag back.

DARRYL POPE: [chuckling] I do, yeah. I've got my bag. I got it just Friday, just a few days ago.

NK: What kind of shape is it in?

DP: Believe it or not, perfect condition. Nothing missing. Wheels are still on it. It's all good.

NK: It's been on a journey-and-a-half, that's for sure. But… so let's go back to the beginning. You arrive back home after this long journey. You had an Apple AirTag in that bag. It wasn't in Newfoundland with you when you arrived. So, where was it initially?

DP: When I first landed in Saint John's, I actually had… had checked the location of the AirTag before I even got on my final flight, and I realized the bag was still in Paris. So --

NK: That was your first stopover coming back?

DP: Yes, it was. I went from the Congo through Paris, through Montreal to St John, so the bag didn't even make it out of Paris. But, you know, I expected it to come shortly after.

NK: When did you realize that your bag took… took another trip entirely?

DP: So because of the AirTag, I was checking its location every day. And I expected it, you know, just to hop on a plane and go straight to Saint John's from… from Pearson, where it was actually sitting. But then I checked it one day after it sat in Pearson for about a week, and it said Philadelphia International Airport. And I thought, okay. [chuckling] And I thought maybe… you know, maybe it's just taking a little detour to hop on a few funny flights before it finds its way up to me. Then, nope, the next day, it was actually in Central Philadelphia, near a place called Rittenhouse Square, which is a neighbourhood.

NK: And so, Rittenhouse Square. You'd never heard of it before this search, as I understand it.

DP: No.

NK: So, you started doing some digging. And then, how do you narrow down precisely how to find it?

DP: I had been calling Air Canada. I spent a total of 17 hours on the phone with Air Canada.

NK: Oh boy!

DP: None of those phone calls were particularly helpful. So, as a bit of a last-ditch effort, I thought, okay, well, this Rittenhouse Square, I checked it out on Google. It actually looked like a pretty nice neighbourhood. So I found a Facebook neighbourhood group because, you know, like where I live, we have those for most small subdivisions and towns.

NK: Yeah.

DP: Sure enough, there was one. I wrote the moderator of that group, and I said to her, hey, here's my deal. Bit of a longshot. Would you mind if I posted in your group asking if anybody happened to have my bag or might have seen the bag? She let me post in the group. She thought it was a bit funny, you know? [NK chuckles] And sure enough, after, geez, maybe 20 minutes --

NK: Twenty minutes?!

DP: Somebody commented… oh, yeah, somebody commented on it very, very quickly, and he said, yep, I have your bag. Yes. Now, to give this guy credit, his name is Aaron Cook. He's the manager of a restaurant named Parc Restaurant in Philadelphia. And he actually, when he saw the bag, my tag was still on it with my name on it, my final destination. So he said, okay, well, I'm just going to see if I can find Darryl on Facebook. And he wrote me. The message just didn't come through, actually. So, I didn’t see it.

NK: So he was trying?

DP: He was. Yeah, he's a great guy, very helpful. And he was actually trying to help. But for whatever reason, the message never came through to me. So it really was only because of the AirTag that I found it in the first place.

NK: I mean, you've got the code for it, the tag. It's got your name on it. You didn't put Parc, you know, Rittenhouse Square, Philadelphia as an address. [both chuckle] So, how did it get there?

DP: I'm not really sure. I mean, nobody at Air Canada was able to tell me how it happened. Each time I asked the agent on the phone, you know, why was this given to the wrong person? They just kind of went silent. When I spoke with the manager of the restaurant, he actually told me that one of their employees, he had recently flown from India to Philadelphia. And when he got there, his bag never made it. Now, I'm not sure what airline he was on. I'm not sure what his story was. But a few days later, his bag was delivered to him at the restaurant. But then, about five or six days after that, somehow, my bag was also delivered to him. Yeah.

NK: So you got your bag on Friday. But again, it wasn't with Air Canada's help, was it?

DP: No, it definitely was not. It was pretty much a kindness of strangers. It was also my employer willing to pay the cost of FedEx, which is pretty steep. [chuckle]

NK: How much?

DP: It was $700 American. They were very, very helpful with that. And I very much appreciated them helping.

NK: What was in the bag? Is... is it worth… was it worth the $750, I guess, if you had to pay that out of pocket?

DP: Well, I actually had to go out and replace the bag entirely. So, the new bag itself, plus just the replacement for everything. And I didn't even buy everything. Like, I hadn't even bought another AirTag, and I never… there's a couple other things that I actually had replaced. But by the time I went shopping and I bought all new clothes, toiletries, a pair of steel-toed boots, that kind of thing, it totalled $1,600.

NK: Wow. You spent all that money. Your employer's paid for the $750 U.S. for the FedEx. But just before we hopped on the phone for you, it's so great to start and end the interview with good news. Tell me what happened?

DP: [chuckle] So, right before you guys gave me a call here today, about half-an-hour before, I actually got a phone call from one of the upper managers of the Air Canada central baggage.

NK: Oh?

DP: And he was the only person who was any help to me, to be honest. But he, you know, profusely apologized. He basically said, you know, that's not the way they like to do business. They said, yeah, we'll make sure that we get reimbursed for the cost of everything I had to purchase, which was $1,600. And also, he's going to make sure my employer gets reimbursed for the cost of the FedEx shipping.

NK: Full reimbursement! That must feel good?

DP: It does. It does. I mean, it's… it took a lot of fighting. I mean, you know, for the amount of time I spent on the phones.

NK: Yeah.

DP: It didn't… I just feel like it didn't really need to be this way. And I know I'm not the only person in this position either.

NK: What do you think tipped the scale and got you that… that money back?

DP: I think the squeaky wheel got the grease. And it’s the fact that, you know, this is in the media. It's getting the attention of CBC. You know, when… when things like that are suddenly known to everybody in the country, then, you know, a company is going to want to do what they got to do to maintain their reputation, so.

NK: What would you say? I mean, I'm sure you… you spoke with the manager who called you as well, but what would you say to staff of Air Canada or others, airlines who… who might be listening?

DP: It would be very helpful if the passengers and their belongings were treated with a bit more respect. Because I'm finding besides your typical lost bags and delays and things like that, it just seems to be happening more. And it seems like the service that you're getting when these things happen is getting worse. Not to mention just the time that I had to spend on the phone trying to research, you know, what to do. So, just a little bit more respect and appreciation for their customers would be great.

NK: Darryl, I'm so glad you got your bag back and your money back, too. Thank you so much for chatting with us.

DP: Yes, it's not a problem at all. Thank you for calling me.

NK: Take care.

DP: You too. Thank you.

CH: We reached Darryl Pope in Paradise, Newfoundland and Labrador.

[music: electronic]

Ice Storm Anniversary

CH: Jacques Bélanger is comfortably retired now. But 25 years ago tonight, he was probably out in the freezing cold on a bucket truck, surrounded by downed hydro poles and lots and lots of ice. Mr. Bélanger was a lineman for Hydro Quebec when the Ice Storm knocked out huge swaths of central Canada in January 2008. He dropped everything to spend the next 30-plus days and nights trying to get the heat and lights back on. Here's how Jacques Bélanger describes getting the initial call.

SOUNDCLIP

JACQUES BÉLANGER: It was 10 in the morning when my foreman called me to tell me there was an ice storm that had just hit. And he told us to go home, get another pair of jeans and underwear because we'd be back Thursday. So we left Tuesday at 10, supposedly to come back Thursday. But that was like 35 days later there. So, that's how it began. And we really realized that when we hit Drummondville, that's where we saw the first pylons completely down, crushed. Right away, as a lineman, knew that’s the transportation line that comes right from the Bay James. So we knew there something gone, and then when we Acton Vale, Drummondville and Saint David and like a bomb. If the pole wasn’t on the ground, it was snapped in two. So, we knew we were in for [chuckle] quite a ride.

JULIA CARON: And I was looking at the list of… of deaths. There are 30 deaths I saw that were attributed.

JB: Yes, on 42. On page 42.

KG: Page 42. You know, this book.

JB: Because I know two of the guys that… one, he's out there and he was a guy from Texas. They'd never seen snow in their life. So they're on the side of the road. And this is a ditch. But he doesn't know that the ditch is just eight feet of snow. He thinks there's solid. So, poor guy… It’s not the guy that was in the bucket, it's the guy helping him who was at the bottom of the pole. When the guy turned over with the arm, the truck capsized. And [claps hands] what were his chances of being under the bucket?

JC: Oh no!

JB: He was squished. And there was a cable guy. Well, he fell out of the tower, but it was so iced. I don't know. Shouldn't have gone up coming up there, probably. But I think everybody there was like a panic mode the first five or six days. Everybody really wanted to… we've got to get this thing done, you know? Andre, who was my lineman with me, one morning, he… he's telling me, Jac, you know, we were asleep there. It was about 4:35 in the morning. He says, I'm freezing. He says, I'm freezing. Well, when I turned around my bed, you know, there’s two beds there, and he's sitting on his side of the bed and he's rocking it. And the sweat is just pouring off him.

JC: You can tell something's wrong.

JB: That's right. He says, I'm freezing. If you're freezing but you're sweating like hell for somebody freezing, you know. So I called the foreman and he spent three days in a hospital. But, you know, in the spur of the moment, I think the adrenaline gets you going and all that there.

CH: Jacques Bélanger is a retired Hydro Quebec lineman. He was talking to Julia Caron of CBC Quebec City.

[music: indie rock]

Part 3: Canada Sports Abuse Letter, Womans’ Surfing Championship

Canada Sports Abuse Letter

Guest: Mac Ross

CH: Over and over, we've heard Canadian athletes calling for an independent inquiry into abuse in sports. Last fall, a former gymnast told us that mistreatment is endemic and asked the federal government for an inquiry. And here is Olympian Waneek Horn-Miller making the call last month at a parliamentary committee.

SOUNDCLIP

WANEEK HORN-MILLER: And we cannot rely on currently competing athletes to fight within their sports. You can't because it means the end of the career. And that is why I've been so vocal as a retired athlete to do something about it. But I don't… I mean, I would like an inquiry, but we can't have another inquiry that has no teeth. We have to do something.

CH: Now, a group of sports scholars from Canada and abroad have written to the prime minister to push for an independent inquiry into reports of abuse in the country's sports system. Mac Ross is a kinesiology professor at the University of Western Ontario who gathered the 91 signatures. We reached him in London, Ontario.

NK: Mac, why did you want to organize and put this letter together to call for an inquiry into abuse in sports?

MAC ROSS: Because of the voices of survivors, just like you heard there. They're calling for an inquiry, a real inquiry, an inquiry with teeth, an inquiry that can actually prompt some meaningful and sustainable change in the sporting system here in Canada.

NK: You've been hearing directly from athletes as well, that added to the urgency for you. What kinds of things are athletes telling you?

MR: Mostly that they don't believe that there's enough independence within the current system, particularly with the Office of the Sports Integrity Commissioner, to properly resolve this crisis. There needs to be something more. There needs to be a truly third-party investigation, an independent judicial inquiry, in order to really put some of these issues, if not to rest, then to really start to find some solutions to them and work toward a better sporting system for everybody involved.

NK: That Office of the Sport Integrity Commissioner was created last June in response to some of the outcry from athletes. But it sounds like the athletes you're speaking to, they don't trust the OSIC?

MR: I don't know if it's that they don't trust it, they just don't think it's enough.

NK: Mm-hmmm.

MR: So, there's only so much the OSIC can do. So, for example, they don't have powers to subpoena. They can only recommend that individuals be sanctioned. So, they're… they're really limited in what they can do. They can hear reports from athletes. They can try to adjudicate. But, at the end of the day, they don't have the independence necessary to have the trust of the athletes entirely. It's still within the sporting system, this OSIC, it's not something that's truly an independent third party.

NK: And what are you hearing from athletes who… who are lodging complaints with the OSIC? What's that process been like for them?

MR: So, in general, it seems like only a portion of the athletes fall under the jurisdiction of the OSIC. So, there's still a long way to go to even make… make it possible for everybody to be heard. So, right now, many of the provincial and municipal level athletes wouldn't be able to go through the OSIC to get some kind of resolution to their complaint. And that's problematic. And there's no... no way to know how long it'll take for it to become a more… more robust system. But more importantly, what many athletes are saying is that this is a reactionary solution. And to that extent, it's not a solution, really. Because it's reactionary, it's handling things after the fact. So, it doesn't have the powers or the expertise or even the mandate to go in and really try to create solutions that will prevent abuse in the future and will limit the trauma that Canadian athletes are facing.

NK: I had the opportunity to interview Minister of Sport Pascale St-Onge about a month ago now, and we asked her directly about why her government has not acted on requests from athletes for an inquiry? We'll just play you a little bit of what she had to say on that.

SOUNDCLIP

PASCALE ST-ONGE: I hear them. I see them. I'm listening to all recommendations and suggestions. There are, unfortunately, and it's never appropriate or no to talk about some limitations that we might have when we're hearing situations of abuse and maltreatment. And my heart is really breaking for these athletes. But there are, you know, as a minister, as a government, we do have responsibilities. We do have also issues about jurisdiction that needs to be worked on. For example, when we're hearing about child abuse or situations that happen in local clubs or provincial club, it's out of my federal jurisdiction. So, of course, I do believe that an investigation is needed. Now, finding the right way to do it, we still need to work on that. But, you know, We'll… we'll… we'll see in 2023 what we can do to attend for at these calls.

NK: So Minister St-Onge saying there are jurisdictional issues. She does want to support athletes, but also, as you well know, inquiries such as this one like this can be expensive. They can take years and years. So, you know, is it possible that there's a different way to deal with the issue, very serious issue, of abuse in sport in this country that might be quicker and perhaps more effective?

MR: I don't think there's a quick solution to this.

NK: Um-hmm.

MR: I think it's going to require a prolonged, independent inquiry to fix it. And that's if we can fix it. We can probably make it better. There will always be issues, but in order to do the very best that we can for every athlete in this country, we need a full inquiry, a full independent judicial inquiry. Because ultimately, we're going to continue to be involved with competitive sport in Canada. And as much as we like to see folks from our country succeed and do well, I think most people would agree that we need to take a step back at this point. If that quest to be competitive internationally is crossing a line and resulting in abuse and trauma for athletes.

NK: And your letter is addressed to Prime Minister Trudeau. As you know, there have been calls for months from so many athletes. So, why do you think that this might change things? That the government might listen to a group of academics with this letter?

MR: I'm not so naive as to think that they necessarily will listen right away, but I think it's important to start to mobilize academics in support of survivors because it really is time for the Canadian public, whether you're an academic or what do you do to get behind them and support them and let them know that they're not alone and that we see what's going on and we agree with them and that we really do want the government to take action.

NK: Mac, thank you very much for your time.

MR: Thank you.

CH: Mac Ross teaches kinesiology at the University of Western Ontario. He's in London, Ontario.

[music: instrumental]

Monterey Park Shooting Hero

CH: The mass shooting in Monterey Park, California was horrific. But it could have been even worse. Not far from the Star Ballroom Dance Studio, where eleven people were killed, a second tragedy was averted. After leaving the scene of the massacre, the shooter went to the Lai Lai Ballroom in nearby Alhambra. Brandon Tsay was working at the family-run business when he heard the man enter. When he went to see what was going on, he was confronted by the gunman. He spoke to Robin Roberts on Good Morning America about what happened next.

SOUNDCLIP

BRANDON TSAY: Something came over me. I realized I needed to get the weapon away from him. I needed to take this weapon, disarm him, or else everybody would have died. When I got the courage, I lunged at him with both my hands, grabbed the weapon, and we had a struggle. We struggled into the lobby, trying to get this gun away from each other. He was hitting me across the face, bashing the back of my head. I was trying to use my elbows to separate the gun away from him, creating some distance. Finally, at one point, I was able to pull the gun away from him, shove him aside, create some distance. Point the gun at him, intimidate him, him and say, get the hell out here. I'll shoot. Go away. Go. And, at this point, I thought he would run away. But he… he was just standing there contemplating whether to fight or to run away. I really thought I would have to shoot him if he came at me. This is when he turned around and walked out the door, jogged back to his van. I immediately called police with the gun still in my hand.

ROBIN ROBERTS: And how are you this morning? You said that you… you were hit. And your injuries, I mean, emotionally and physically… as much emotionally and physically, how are you dealing with this, what you went through, Brandon?

BT: After the incident, I was… I was shook. I was shaking. I was shaking all night. I couldn't believe what happened. After waking up, I noticed there was bruising all over my body. My face has a bruise across the nose, and the back of my head has some bruising. I can't believe that this could happen.

RR: You heard the sheriff and other law officials and everyday people calling you a hero. What does that mean when you hear that?

BT: Yes. Well, a lot of people have been telling me how much courage I had to confront a situation like this. But, you know what courage is? Courage is not the abstinence fear, but rather the ability to have adversity to fear when fearful events happen such as this. And in crises like this, the people need courage, especially the victims, their friends, their families. My heart goes out to everybody involved, especially the people in Star Dance Studio and Monterey Park. I hope they could find the courage and strength to persevere.

CH: That was Brandon Tsay speaking to Robin Roberts on Good Morning America.

[music: instrumental]

Womans’ Surfing Championship

Guest: Makani Adric

CH: Yesterday -- for the first time since 2016 -- the 'Super Bowl of surfing' went ahead. And for the first time ever, six women were invited. The Eddie, as it's called, only goes if the waves are a minimum of 12 meters high. And on Sunday, they were hitting 18. Makani Adric is one of the first women to surf at 'The Eddie.' We reached her in Honolulu, Hawaii.

NK: Makani, I hear the waves were pretty great yesterday for the competition. What about today?

MAKANI ADRIC: Today is a lot smaller. There still is some size and people surfing Waimea Bay, but the conditions are great to go out and surf again.

NK: Are you out on the water every day?

MA: Yes. So, if I'm not surfing, then I'm either swimming or just enjoying a day at the beach.

NK: Last week, what were you doing when you found out that three days after that, you were going to be competing?

MA: So last week, I kind of was just bringing myself together physically and mentally. There was a lot of just brainstorming and thinking of a game plan to surf The Eddie Aikau. It was extremely stressful, and I had a lot of anxiety coming up until the day of the event, which was yesterday.

NK: I can only imagine. And just for our listeners, The Eddie only happens when the waves are large enough for the competition. And as I said, you found out just three days before the event. Tell our listeners about Eddie and what he means to people there.

MA: So, Eddie Aikau, he is a big face in the surfing community and in the history of Hawaii. I mean, besides being an amazing surfer, he was also a lifeguard who saved hundreds, if not thousands, of people. He was actually the first lifeguard at Waimea Bay. So having this event, it kind of brings the big wave surfing community and people from all over the world to watch this in the honour of EddieAikau.

NK: Hmm. When we speak about communities of surfers, women who surf, such as yourself had to fight to be part of this competition. Tell me about that.

MA: Women were actually not allowed to surf back in the days. So today, having women in an event like this where for years it's been men only, is… it changes the perspective and view of a lot of things. A lot of people, sports in general and surfing, this is a big mark in the history of surfing.

NK: What do you make of the fact, though, that it still has to be a fight?

MA: It will always be a fight. And there has been, I would say, some unfairness throughout the years of women being able to compete with men. But if you can put in the work and show the world that you can… a woman like myself can do things that men can do, then that's where you get your foot in the door.

NK: So, take me through the day yesterday. How did you do?

MA: Yesterday, I think I did pretty good. I was happy. [chuckle] It was definitely a memorable day and one of the most exciting days I've had in a really long time. And I live right above Waimea Bay, where they held the event. So, driving down, there was already at 5 in the morning, hundreds of people parked in the middle of the road and walking to those and getting ready to be there in person to witness. It… I mean, I couldn't even process what was going on. [both chuckle] But seeing everyone there in the community, people from all over the world coming together, it was so special to be able to say that I was part of this event and I had competed. This was what I was here for.

NK: Oh, that's wonderful. The winner, in the end, was Luke Shepherdson. You went to school with him, if I'm not mistaken. So what was it like to watch someone you knew in.

MA: North Shore, where I live, the north shore of Oahu, it is such a tight community, and everyone knows each other. So growing up with him, he was a surfer. I trained jiu-jitsu with him. And then he also is actually a lifeguard. So, being able to witness him winning this event was amazing. And he was actually on duty as a lifeguard -- [chuckling]

NK: That day.

MA: Yes, yes, yes, yesterday.[NK laughs] So that was the amazing part was watching him be able to surf these… this heat in this competition to catch a wave. And his whole family was watching, the whole North Shore was watching, and we're all cheering for him. So, it was quite spectacular.

NK: You know, you mentioned how tight-knit the community is and that people everybody knows everybody else. Why do you think, though, in that… in that environment even, there's not more support for women who are surfing and want to surf competitively?

MA: I think some people view things differently. And maybe they wouldn't have been there to watch the woman. But it is an event where it's always been men. And I think that they're there maybe just to see the excitement, to be a part of something that maybe in real life they couldn't do themselves. So, whoever it was they were supporting or whatever reason they were there, there was a reason. And, I mean, just for them to be there, to enjoy the day, that's kind of all that matters.

NK: What would you say to other surfers out there, women, who have dreams of not only surfing but competing in The Eddie?

MA: I think that if you dream and compete to be in The Eddie, and you want to surf big waves, just believe in yourself. And do the things that you want to do because you want to do them. Have fun, enjoy and live in the moment.

NK: That's pretty great advice, Makani. Thank you very much. Congratulations again.

MA: Thank you. I appreciate it.

CH: Makani Adric is a surfer based in Hawaii. We reached her in Honolulu, Hawaii.

[music: funk]

Cane Toad Bust

CH: Cane toads have always been a big problem, and a big threat to Australian diversity. But a recent capture was especially big. A two-point-seven kilogram specimen -- that's just under six pounds -- was discovered in Queensland, Australia, and quickly removed from the wild. It was named "Toadzilla". It's so big that it looks fake -- like it was badly photoshopped into every picture of it. And it was found as Australians begin the annual "Great Cane Toad Bust" -- an initiative that encourages citizens to take matters, and toads, into their own hands. To capture the invasive species in their own backyards. And it works: last year, 55,000 cane toads were busted. Emily Vincent is with the environmental charity Watergum. She explained the effort -- and what's behind Toadzilla's massive size -- to the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

SOUNDCLIP

EMILY VINCENT: Probably, it's just quite old. I think it's probably managed to evade capture for many, many years. And cane toads that far north are actually still very large. The ones that have made it further south have kind of adapted to Australian… the Australian environment, and they've gotten much, much smaller over the last 90 years. But occasionally, we do find one of those really large ones up north.

PATRICA KARVELOS: So, "Great Cane Toad Bust", it starts today. What is the best way to catch a cane toad and then to euthanize it?

EV: So, the best way to catch them is simply walking around after dusk with a torch and gloves on and a bucket and just picking them up as you go. And then, we ask everyone to practice humane euthanasia. It's not their fault they're here. They were put here by us. And that is the fridge freezer method, which is 24 hours in the fridge, which puts them into a comatose state called torpor and then 24 hours in the freezer. And because they've had that refrigeration period first it means they've slipped off to sleep and they don't feel the pain of being frozen.

PK: Okay. How about those people who are reluctant to put a live cane toad into their fridge?

EV: Well, there are lots of them. I mean, me personally, my partner would get very upset [chuckling] if I tried to put a toad in our fridge. So I would suggest to people if there are people listening who are in cane toad impacted areas, that they get a second fridge freezer for their garage or similar. And then up on the Gold Coast, we've actually started a range of drop off stations. So these are run by volunteer hosts who kindly manage a fridge freezer and actually handle the euthanasia part for the community. And we're hoping to spread this around Australia.

PK: They're obviously very bad news for Australia's native wildlife. Just briefly, I understand there's good news on them adapting. What's happening?

EV: So, toads are very bad for Australian wildlife. They're, you know, highly toxic, but there are lots of native animal species that are learning how to eat them safely, which is very, very encouraging. So, we've got lots and lots of bird species which can now dissect cane toads, eat the bits that aren't poisonous, so they're able to make a meal out of cane toads. And we’re very, very confident that going forward, native species will handle the toad problem themselves. It's just going to take a few decades. We're not… we're not sure how long. So we need to give these animals a helping hand in the meantime.

CH: That's Emily Vincent, from the environmental charity Watergum, speaking to Patricia Karvelos, host of RN Breakfast on the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

January 23, 2023 Episode Transcript