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The AIH Transcript For February 16, 2022

[hosts]Carol Off, Chris Howden[/hosts]

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden, this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: Pulling together to not pull at all. The president of the Ontario towing association says that if the government thinks the Emergencies Act will force tow truck drivers to remove the big rigs in downtown Ottawa, it better think again.

CH: Pulling up stakes. The blockade in Coutts, Alberta has ended, after the RCMP seized weapons and made arrests -- but an organizer says anyone who thinks all the protesters are extremists is extremely mistaken.

CO: No longer a silent treatment. After a stem cell transplant cures a third patient of HIV, the lead researcher explains why and how it worked -- and what it could mean in the future.

CH: Strong arm tactics. After the Trudeau government announces it's sending weapons to help Ukraine face down Russia's troops, our guest asks why Canada seems to have abandoned the diplomatic path.

CO: Having a lot of field days. The BC Lions become the first CFL team to hire a woman as a full-time coach -- and she says hopes her time on the sidelines will mean women are no longer sidelined.

CH: And Carol, you better collect yourself to recollect yourself. We'll test your claim that you remembers every one of your interviews once again -- by travelling even further back into our cobwebby, cavernous archives.

CH: As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that confesses to being a little annals-retentive.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Ottawa Towing Companies, Carol's Quiz

Ottawa Towing Companies

Guest: Mark Graves

CH: In downtown Ottawa, there's evidence that the Emergencies Act is in effect. With police handing out notices to those parked on Parliament Hill warning of severe penalties if they don't leave. Inside the House of Commons, MPs continued to debate whether the act was needed. And things got heated between the Prime Minister and the interim Conservative leader Candice Bergen.

SOUNDCLIP

CANDICE BERGEN: I understand the prime minister admires basic dictatorships, but let's remind the prime minister this is Canada. This is not a dictatorship.

[Sound: Clapping and cheers of "here, here".]

CB: The prime minister is actually pouring gasoline on embers. Isn't it true? The prime minister is doing this for one reason and one reason alone. It's to save his own political career.

[Sound: The clapping and cheering has become more intense]

ANTHONY ROTA: The Right, Honourable Prime Minister.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Conservatives simply can't have it both ways. They spent weeks complaining that we weren't doing enough to restore order in this country. And now, we move forward to give people the tools they need.

AR: I'm going to have to interrupt the Right, Honourable Prime Minister. You know, I've been getting emails from people who are watching us at home, and they're pretty ashamed of their parliament because of the shouting that goes on. One person brought something up. They said, well, all the shouting happens at the beginning. Why not start with the end questions? If this continues at the beginning, I'm going to the last question, turn my list upside down, and we'll start at the end. The Honourable Prime Minister, please continue.

JT: Mr. Speaker, Conservatives can't have it both ways. They spent the first few weeks of this challenge and illegal blockades saying that the government needed to act and take responsibility. And then when we finally move forward in a responsible way, when the time was right to bring in the Emergencies Act, they're now complaining that we've done too much. At the same time and throughout, Mr. Speaker, they continue to stand with and support and cheer on these illegal blockades. Mr. Speaker, they are the ones playing politics.

CH: That was Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, and before that, Speaker Anthony Rota and interim Conservative leader Candice Bergen today in Question Period. Meanwhile, outside Parliament, police handed out flyers to protesters -- telling them to move on, or face arrest. Despite that warning, there are still big rigs parked along Wellington Street. And the Emergencies Act says that tow truck drivers could be the ones to move them. Mark Graves says otherwise. He's the president of the Provincial Towing Association of Ontario and the owner of a towing company near Sault Ste. Marie. We reached him in Thessalon, Ontario.

CO: Mark, the federal government says that tow truck drivers are obliged to clear these trucks in downtown Ottawa if they're asked to do so. How do you react to that?

MARK GRAVES: Well, we've reached out to legal counsel and asked what our legalities are regarding this? And we've been provided nothing in writing. So we don't… we can't really respond until we know what they're… what they're truly asking us to do, and/or forcing us to do, until they give us a mandate.

CO: Right. But what are you hearing from… then from drivers as to why… this is because up to now, they've asked you, police have asked you… the tow trucks to take these trucks away or to be engaged in that way, and they've said, no. So what are you hearing from drivers?

MG: Well, drivers and companies alike, you know, don't necessarily want to be involved in this for… for numerous reasons. The industry as a whole has… has taken a stand of staying neutral, not picking any sides. There's… there's a lot of factors involved in making a decision to do this type of work that could be… could have a negative impact on business down the road.

CO: What kind of negative impact?

MG: Well, these… these companies that are there are the very companies that call us for work. We also, you know, under our government mandate, we don't know how it affects the Ministry of Labour laws and OSHA rules for safe working environments for the employees. We don't know what type of protections are going to be put in place. You know, they even went as far as saying they may just take the tow trucks. Well, what about insurance? What about damages? What about… you know, there's a lot of variables that are not being addressed in this. And again, it's only verbal, so we don't know what or how to react.

CO: We heard the Federal Justice Minister David Lametti here on the show last night. He said, as you point out, that the… the government can commandeer your tow trucks or their tow trucks and… and get on with the job. So what would happen if the government just takes the trucks?

MG: How do they run it? Are they insured? Are they… do they have drivers? Do they know… do they know how to operate them? You know, it's not like driving a car.

CO: You also mentioned just a moment ago that there's no guarantee for the safety of the vehicle or the business. But you said, people as well. What… what do the drivers fear might happen to them personally?

MG: Well, again, it's… it's a complete unknown. We… you know, the drivers and the companies have no idea what they're walking into. And they have no idea what type of protections the government are going to put in place.

CO: But it's serious, you think?

MG: Well, it's serious enough that virtually every company for the first time, towing-wise, is all on the same page. We're not… we're not getting involved.

CO: Can you see under… under any circumstances, any negotiations or discussions or whatever that the tow truck drivers who are in Ontario would go into Ottawa and start pulling those trucks out?

MG: [sigh] Um, at this point, it would… it would take… it would take the government standing up and… and publicly announcing that they are responsible for everything.

CO: What do you mean? What do you mean responsible?

MG: Well, I mean, you know, there's a lot of… so what if… what if a tow truck is damaged during this? Who's… who's responsible? The towing company's insurance company or the government? What if the vehicle that's being towed is damaged because of resistance from the people to move it? Who's responsible for that? Does… does the towing company's insurance cover this?

CO: You've referred to this as business suicide if a company were to comply with these orders. What do you mean by that?

MG: Well, no, I didn't… I didn't say that. I said that businesses that are willingly going out and working against companies that are… that are their very bread and butter could… could be harmed. And they could still be harmed even if they're working under order of the government. You know the… the capitalism is the free will to use the companies out there that you choose to use. So if companies are compelled to do this work and… and another company that was involved in this as I'm never going to hire them again for, you know, whatever reasons they choose, then that's lost future work. And that is one… that's business-to-business work.

CO: There are some dozens, maybe hundreds of trucks, thousands of people involved in the protests, but there are tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands just in Ottawa who want to see this end. And so, aren't those customers as well? I mean, aren't you sort of in between two groups just as easily to be, I guess, blacklisted by a larger public if you were not to… if the companies were not to help at this moment?

MG: While the larger public doesn't deal with million dollar tow trucks and… and… and expensive pieces of equipment. The larger public is dealing with cars and, you know, what we call four-wheelers in a… in a relatively localized area. The heavy truck towing business is very different from… from what you're describing. And the thing is… is we're being neutral here. You know, the government has military force. They have tow trucks. Why are they… why… why are they compelling private industry to do something? They have… they have trained military operators. And why aren't the military… why doesn't the military come in and cleaning this up? Why is it a private industry's job to clean up something that has gotten out of hand for whatever reason? At what point is it private industry's responsibility?

CO: And as you point… the military does have tow vehicles. But the government says it will not use military vehicles to move the rigs. And so… and so, just, I guess final question, what would it actually take to physically clear those trucks in downtown Ottawa if no one drives them out?

MG: It's a herculean task that is only made bigger by a resistance. You know it takes a… it takes a significant amount of time to safely tow a tractor-trailer off of a road where people are broke down that want to be towed. You know these people know their trucks. They… they have the ability to… to make these trucks virtually untowable.

CO: We'll be watching. Mark, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

MG: Thank you.

CH: Mark Graves is the president of the Provincial Towing Association of Ontario. He was in Thessalon, Ontario. And you can find more on that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Folk]

Carol's Quiz

CH: Carol, it's Wednesday.

CO: Yeah.

CH: And you know what that means by now. It's time for another round of “Where Do You Get Off, Off?” Reynold, roll the theme.

[Music: I got bored of this theme like two weeks ago]\

CO: [in theme] Close to 25,000 interviews, and I probably remember every one of them. I probably remember every one of them.

CO: [ CH laughing] You're just going to keep punishing me for that… or trying to! You haven't been successful so far.

CH: Well, there's been some punishment. I think it's win-win.

CO: [laughing] Yeah --

CH: We get to punish you, and you still win.

CO: It is… it has been punishing. Nothing like the Olympics, but it has been a punishing contest, I must say.

CH: Good point. Now, this is actually round four, which is hard to believe. I also… I would have assumed that by now, CBC Gem would have approached us [CO laughs] to make a TV deal. That’s why I keep wearing these sequined suits. CBC Gem, you have my number. Before we begin tonight's quiz, we need to do a little recap for everyone keeping score at home, which is everyone, you, Carol, are a perfect three-for-three so far. In round one, you remembered an elusive sea creature with a disappearing anus. Who could forget! In round two, you nearly slipped, but at the last minute recognized Mr. T's voice and his love of curling. And last week, you sniffed out a winner when you recalled your interview with a magazine writer who decided to douse herself in her son's Axe body spray. Your studio, by the way, still smells like a high school dance.

CO: The whole hallway still smells like that. [CH laughs] I will never get rid of that odour.

CH: There's this yellow caution tape up around it right now. [CO laughs] Now, as always, I'm rooting for you. We're all rooting for you. But once again, you have your work cut out for you.

CO: Oh, is this… how far back are you going this time?

CH: Well, I'll tell you in a minute. But before we get to that, we should remind our studio audience of the rules. Studio audience.

[Sound: The laughing of a crowd]

CH: They're a little slow on the uptake!

CO: [laughing] but so spontaneous.

CH: It is. Yeah, exactly. We held up the sign, “APPLAUSE”. Each week, leading up to Carol's final show on February 25th, we will select one interview from her 16-year archive. We’ll play a series of clips from that interview and give Carol a chance to guess the topic. And tonight, once again, we'll be going back even further into the archives. So listen closely, and let's begin round four. Now, Carol, this is an interview you did 10 years ago in 2012. Roll the first clip, please.

SOUNDCLIP

WOMAN: Édouard Manet “Olympia”. He was one of the early impressionists, and he used a motif of a… of a nude on a… on a couch. But he was one of the first people to make it a modern figure and not a mythical goddess. But she's looking at the viewer with a very candid gaze.

CH: And… start the clock. Carol, can you name that interview?

[Sound: The stressful timer is back.]

CO: Emmmm. I'm working on it. I can see it. I can see Manet's “Olympia”, for sure. Which is kind of --

CH: Can you, indeed?

CO: Sexy.

CH: [chuckling] Now you're distracted.

CO: Yeah, I am.

[Sound: Timer stops]

CO: Okay, back. I'm here. Okay. Hoof!

CH: Now, look, I can't see you because we're in separate studios. So I can't see your expression. I'm feeling a kind of burgeoning confidence, but you may not quite be there yet. Do you have an answer?

CO: There was some artist who used Manet's “Olympia” and put somebody else in the place of herself, Olympia. And I can't recall. Maybe if you give me more clues, I'll be able to say who that is.

[Sound: Bum-bum-bummmmm]

CH: Well, I mean, I guess we have to play the sad crowd sound.

[Sound: The crowd is much more reactionary this time around.]

CH: And the trombone.

[Sound: The trombone is right on time.]

CH: But you're already startlingly close. And don't worry, you have two more chances to get this right. Now, here's another clip from the same interview, so listen closely.

SOUNDCLIP

WOMAN: Certainly looks like a Tim Hortons coffee cup, but it's on a China saucer. So it's both the coffee of the people, but also served in a method that an emperor deserves.

CO: And we're presuming it's a double-double.

WOMAN: [laughing] Perhaps!

CO: It has that air having of being a double-double. You know, something kind of rich.

CH: Okay. [CO chuckles] Now, look, we're going to need an answer on the double-double. Set another clock, please, Reynold. And go, Carol! Can you name that interview?

CO: Well, emmmm. Yeah, it's unfortunate the image that I have to replace “Olympia” with is not pleasant, but I think I have… I think I know who is in that painting.

CH: Oh my gosh! This would be your first… first time in four rounds that you will maybe get it on the second try. What's your guess?

CO: Well, just so people… just that image of Olympia, who is sprawled naked on --

CH: You know impressionist painters, Carol. Can we --

CO: Yes, yes. Okay, so just if you would.

CH: Oh fine!

CO: And I know you don't want to, [CH chuckles] but try and picture another politician who might have been in power in 2010, somebody who might be drinking a double-double, who might be just looking at you, coquettishly with his eyes.

CH: Um-hmmm.

CO: And his name might be Stephen Harper.

[Sound: The happy crowd!!!]

CH: Stephen Harper.

[Sound: Happy video game sounds]

CH: That's phenomenal. Phenomenal! Two guesses!

CO: But really unfortunate that you had to bring that image back to me because… [chuckling] and people should look it up and they'll know what I'm talking about.

CH: Carol, if you're afraid of adult sensuality, I don't… I can't help you. [CH laughs] No.

CO: So, okay. Just out of curiosity, what was the third clip that would have, of course, delivered the truth to me? Just… can we hear that?

CH: Yes, please! Reynold.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: There are little dots or… or blurred parts over the package. So what do you make of that?

WOMAN: Well, it's… uh, some of the dots were bigger than necessary, I thought. [CO laughs] It's… it’s a very small part of the painting. It's just peeking out.

CO: It is a very small part, yes.

WOMAN: I noticed that when I looked on the net that the French media did not bother with hiding anything.

CO: [laughing] That's probably more information than people want. [CH chuckles] But yes, that was the image that was coming back to me as we as I heard those clips.

CH: The dots and the size --

CO: The dots, yes.

CH: To join the dots.

CO: Not… not the Quebec version of it, which was more provocative. Yes.

CH: Yeah. Well, you know… no comment. But anyway, that was your unforgettable, obviously, 2012 interview with artist Margaret Sutherland, after Kingston, Ontario's public library, deemed her portrait of former Prime Minister Stephen Harper relaxing nude on a chaise long unsuitable for children's eyes. Now, before we let you go, we do have a bonus question here, Carol.

CO: Stop!

CH: And you're on a roll today, [CO chuckles] so just listen closely to this next clip.

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: What the painting really does and what the artist has through an excellent, brilliant composition done is captured the mood of a ten-year period in Canada and Canada's political history, where from top down, whether it's ministers, government scientists, civil servants, fisheries scientists, environmental scientists, there's been a mood of intimidation and silence. So if you look beyond the nudity, there's tremendous context here in terms of capturing the mood of the nation over a ten year period. I mean, I've historically been on the right. I'm a business owner. I employ people. So, I see the value of having low taxes, low government intervention and all kinds of… in all parts of our lives. But I think the Harper government became more than just Conservatives.

CH: The key phrase there being, if you can look past the nudity. [CO laughs] Now, it got kind of serious there. But I'm wondering if you can name the guest in that clip? Reynolds, can you set another clock, please?

CO: What?! Come on! I just…

CH: This is for a bonus point bonus point, Carol. Don’t you want a bonus point?

CO: Oh, okay. A bonus point. Okay, go for it.

[Sound: A new and much friendlier-sounding timer]

CH: New theme music.

CO: This is the bonus point music?

CH: That's right. How are you enjoying it?

CO: I’ve never got this far before.

CH: No, exactly. None of us ever has. [CO chuckles]

CO: Wow!

CH: It’s magic, isn't it? We're talking over your guessing time.

CO: Stop it! [CH chuckles] Okay, we’ve had enough. Okay?

CH: I don't like this magic anymore.

CO: Okay. Oh, I guess I have to give an answer here, but I have no idea who that is.

CH: That's fair. I… it wasn't exactly a bonus point in the sense of being a fun bonus. That was, however, Frederick Ghahramani. He is the Vancouver entrepreneur who bought the portrait, which was called “Emperor Haute Couture”. And you spoke with him in 2015. You are four-for-four with one more round to go. So, congratulations. Take the rest of the day.

CO: Okay, I'm going to my laurel coach now.

CH: [laughing] Okay.

CO: Bye.

CH: And now, let's hear that interview with the artist Margaret Sutherland again.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Margaret, I'm looking at this painting, and Stephen Harper looks very relaxed. He's languid in his pose. [MS laughs] Did you have… did you have fun doing this?

MARGARET SUTHERLAND: At times I did, when I wasn't tearing my hair out. Sometimes painting can be difficult, but it's been a lot of fun. Lately, particularly.

CO: Did you… I mean, he is completely stark naked. And it's not him. I presume he did not pose for you?

MS: No, he did not.

CO: Uh-huh.

MS: No. I used to… I used another model who shall remain nameless. [laughing] And it's kind of all of my paintings are done from composites, usually of several. I work primarily from photographs, but also from live models, too.

CO: But some of that… now, let’s… first of all, he has this very… this very, as I say, calm expression, kind of limpid gaze.

MS: Yeah.

CO: Why… why did you choose that? [MS laughs] What were you trying to say with that expression?

MS: Well, the limpid gaze, as you put it, which is… it's a lovely expression. It comes from the painting that I got the original inspiration from, which was Édouard Manet’s “Olympia”. He was one of the early impressionists, and he used a motive of a… of a nude on a… on a couch. But he was one of the first people to make it a modern figure and not a mythical goddess.

CO: And it was a woman in that case.

MS: It was a woman, yes. That is the case. But she's looking at the viewer with a very candid gaze, and looking you right in the eyes, which I love.

CO: And… but, of course, Mr. Harper, he's lacking that velvet choker that, of course, characterizes the Manet painting.

MS: [laughing] Yes.

CO: And some other things. Instead of the maid who is in the background of the Manet painting, we have a series of suits. One of them being a woman suit. And we don't see their heads.

MS: Yes.

CO: And the woman is offering Mr. Harper a… as you just mentioned, a… a Tim Hortons coffee.

MS: Well, it looks… it certainly looks like a Tim Hortons coffee cup, but it's on a China saucer. So it's both the coffee of the people, but also served in a method that an emperor deserves.

CO: And we're presuming it's a double-double?

MS: [laughing] Perhaps.

CO: It has that air of being a double-double. You know, something kind of rich.

MS: Yes.

CO: Now, of course, what is quite controversial in this painting is that there is a dog at his feet.

MS: Yes!

CO: And it's curled up on this chaise long along with him. And, of course, I don't know if you heard? Prime Minister spokesperson Andrew McDougall. He tweeted this morning that they're not impressed with your painting because everyone knows that the PM is a cat person.

MS: Yes, yes. And as do I. And that's my dog.

CO: That’s your dog. All right. So let's get to the reaction to your painting.

MS: Okay.

CO: Because it's been… this… you didn't… this is not a freshly painted canvas here. It's been around a while. So what has happened recently?

MS: Well, it's the setting that it's in. It's in a jury's full annual salon at the Kingston Public Library. And so the space that it's in is not a dedicated gallery space. It's a multipurpose space that is used for meetings. And the big issue, I guess, is lately piano recitals where I believe children are playing. I don't know if there was any complaints from the… the renters for those times or if the library was being maybe a little proactive about it. I think they jumped off the gun a little quickly and didn’t want to traumatize people. But with the dog.

CO: Is it… [laughing] with the dog. Of course, it's the dog. I mean, and do you think that if it was another nude and not our prime minister that it would make a difference?

MS: I honestly don't know. I have a feeling in really, the library was only thinking about the nudity. But I think other people are… have been reacting to… [chuckling] to the more political nature of it.

CO: And it has been pointed… pointed out, though, because this has been on a lot of websites today, this painting, that there are little dots and blurred parts over the package. So, there seems to be… although, you don't see that normally and when people put on their websites art.

MS: No.

CO: Yeah. So what do you make of that?

MS: Well, it's… oh, I know the original blog that posted about the salon said they didn't… if people were viewing it at work, they didn't want their bosses to think they were looking at internet porn. I don't know why they're reading blogs in the first place, but it's… it's… some of the dots were bigger than necessary, I thought. [CO laughs] It's… this is a very small part of the painting. It's just peeking out, and --

CO: It is a very small part, yes.

MS: I noticed that when I looked on the net that the French media did not bother with hiding anything.

CO: How revealing!

MS: Yes. [chuckling]

CO: Just a distinct society.

MS: Yes. Yes. And so thank God. [laughing]

CO: Now, what has the… what has the library decided to do?

MS: Well, originally, the… the… my original distress with the library was that they were actually taking the painting down at certain times. My… the original agreement I worked out with the Kingston Arts Council, who then communicated to the library, was that it would be covered at certain times. They didn't apparently get that communication and it was being taken down and then left down. And I was concerned that it would be damaged.

CO: But it is for sale?

MS: It is for sale, yes. [dog barks] And it's… it can be seen during most daytime hours, just not during the piano recitals.

CO: I hear the dog.

MS: Yes.

CO: Is that the dog in the painting?

MS: That… that is the dog in the painting?

CH: For the third time ever, a person has been essentially cured of HIV. Yesterday, researchers announced that an American woman has gone into complete HIV remission after undergoing a transplant of umbilical-cord stem cells. She needed the stem cell transplant to treat her leukemia -- and was given stem cells that were resistant to HIV. It's being considered a breakthrough. But doctors are warning it's not a practical treatment for large populations. Dr. Yvonne Bryson is an infectious disease physician at UCLA who led the study. We reached her in Los Angeles.

CO: Dr. Bryson, how did you react when you confirmed that this patient had gone into remission from HIV?

DR. YVONNE BRYSON: Well, I think we're a whole team, and we were very pleased. We've been following this particular woman for many years. She was… she was living with HIV, and she's of mixed race, and she, unfortunately, got leukemia, which required to get a stem cell transplant for the treatment of the leukemia.

CO: This was a treatment for her leukemia. Was… did you expect to see this effect on her HIV?

DYB: Well, we actually hoped, yes. Because we were using HIV-resistant cells, right, that were from the cord. So --

CO: What are… what are HIV-resistant cells?

DYB: Well, there's a specific and a natural mutation that occurs mostly in northern European and Caucasian that is naturally resistant to HIV. You can't infect her… if you have this mutation, you can't infect your cells with HIV.

CO: Right. So those are the cells… these cells are the ones you… you injected her with. And so, this… and this is… was the effect. So this is… she's only the third person and the first woman to… to be essentially cured of HIV.

DYB: That's correct, yes.

CO: And is this something that is… is a breakthrough that can now become a treatment?

DYB: Um, I think… I think it offers a lot of new options. And it opens up additional options for patients with diverse backgrounds to… to receive this treatment. Now, I want to make clear that this is a risky treatment. It's not available, or should not be available, to the… to the large number of people living with HIV. But in cases where it's needed for another reason, such as cancer or some other… some other problem that requires a stem cell transplant, this is a new option for them.

CO: Why is it risky?

DYB: It's risky because this is probably the most extreme where they use chemotherapy, and… but total body irradiation to get rid of all your own cells and the cancer cells. So… so basically, you know, there can be significant problems after that. There may not be, such as this.. this woman who did very well and was in the hospital only a couple of weeks and was out. And she's had very… almost no complications, and she's healthy and well.

DYB: And what did you think that the fact there's no complications? Is that what you expected?

DYB: Um, it's unusual. But I think the fact that the way that this was done with what we call a haplo-cord transplant, it minimized some of the complications you can see after transplant of other infections. So, I think certainly in this case, it… it turned out to have minimal complications. But it still doesn't mean that this would be a therapy used in general.

CO: So… and so going back to these stem cells that have this HIV immunity, how hard is it to identify and isolate them and to be able to use them in a treatment like this?

DYB: I think that's a very good question. Because one of the problems… and when I gave this talk on Tuesday is that why aren't there more cases of cure? This is only the third one. And one of the reasons is that, as you brought up, it's difficult, and there's no current mechanisms for screening for this mutation. It is rare. It's one per cent in northern Europeans. And therefore, to… to not only find this mutation, but also get a genetic match is difficult. So that's one of the reasons that there haven't been more cases.

CO: Could this be more widely used or become more available if there was more umbilical cord blood that was available? More of these stem cells that were available?

DYB: I think always getting more cord blood in banks is helpful in general to a lot of diseases. But I also think there has to be a mechanism to screen them for this mutation. And currently, it was… it was part of efforts on behalf of using cord blood for this purpose that we screened with cord blood banks and their… their units. We screened for this mutation. But currently, in the United States, there is not a mechanism for this. So, it's… it's not usually done.

CO: I just wondered for the patient herself, what effect did the treatment have on her leukemia?

DYB: Well, she is cured of her leukemia. She's been in remission for over four years. So she's cured of her leukemia, and she's also HIV-free, now.

CO: It's astonishing. Do… do you know how she's feeling about all these breakthroughs?

DYB: Well, yes, I think so. I'm not taking care of her directly. But… but, of course, we follow her through her clinicians. And she's… she's happy. She's… she's thrilled. And she's healthy and able to go back about her… her life and her work.

CO: Astonishing. Just finally, do you think that this is something… getting stories like this out, that people hearing about them? Do you think it would encourage people to… to give cord blood? To donate it to these banks in order to see these kinds of breakthroughs?

DYB: I think, you know, in the last day or so, we've also heard a lot from the cord blood banks saying that this is… is a great boost to them to enhance donations because it is a voluntary sort of thing. And otherwise, they're thrown away.

CO: Right. Great story for that woman, especially. Dr. Bryson, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

DYB: Thank you.

CH: Dr. Yvonne Bryson is an infectious disease physician at UCLA. We reached her in Los Angeles. And tomorrow on The Current, Matt Galloway speaks with a Toronto scholar and activist who is herself HIV positive about what this breakthrough might mean for people in Canada's Black communities.

[Music: Vocalization]

Coutts Arrests

CH: Tractors and trucks rolled out of Coutts, Alberta yesterday -- ending the blockade at the US border that's been going on for over two weeks. Their exit came after the RCMP seized weapons by the blockade and made arrests on Monday. Now, 13 people have been charged -- four of them with conspiracy to commit murder. Marco Van Huigenbos was a lead organizer of the protest in Coutts. He says any extreme elements don't represent the entire protest. This morning he spoke to the CBC about the decision to leave.

SOUNDCLIP

MARCO VAN HUIGENBOS: The minute that news came out of the charges and the pictures, we were in meetings with the RCMP to peacefully leave Coutts. You know, our meet… our mandate there was peacefully. Above all… above all goals and all the accomplishments. We were there peacefully. And as soon as that news came out of a violent element that had… that had come into our… into our group, into our gathering, we made the decision to leave.

DAVID GRAY: Did you know any people in that group? Did you talk to any of them? Were they… were they… how would you describe them and their association with the rest of the protesters?

MVH: Well, they… you know, we… we had many new faces come in on the daily. Some stayed, some left. I probably have talked to the individuals there, right? We were… we were in one building. The meals were… meals were shared, et cetera. Obviously, we didn't have the ability to vet who came in and who didn't. That's the unfortunate part. And because we did not have the ability to screen who was part of this protest, we made that decision to… to retract peacefully, immediately.

DG: Do you feel any responsibility for the economic impact you've caused for people who live and work in that part of the province?

MVH: No, we don't. I don't feel any particular responsibility for that. Obviously, it is caused by us. But I would say the economic hardships caused by COVID mandates, emergency measures has… is far greater than that. And the hardships that continue to experience even though we've left. You know, there's still factories operating at minimum capacities, restaurants are struggling, small businesses are closing. We can focus on what we've done, but our mandate was there to bring it to light the restrictions and the economic pain that has been caused provincewide and countrywide.

DG: Marco, you have voiced your frustration with the state of our democratic process in this country. But aren't you yourself an elected public official in Fort MacLeod? You're a town councillor there. How do you… how do you… how do you put those two things together?

MVH: I am a town councillor, but I was at Coutts, Alberta, of my own accord.

DG: Do you have to now account for your actions to the people who elected you in your town?

MVH: That's something that will be discussed going forward. And at this moment, I feel no further comment is necessary.

CH: That was Marco Van Huigenbos, organizer of the protest in Coutts, Alberta, speaking with David Gray today on the Calgary Eyeopener.

[Music: Horns!!!]

Ukraine Canada Weapons

Guest: Peggy Mason

CH: In Brussels today, Canada's Minister of Defence, Anita Anand joined her NATO colleagues to plan their response to a potential Russian invasion of Ukraine. Minister Anand reiterated the promise Prime Minister Trudeau made on Monday to shore up Ukraine with both financing and deadly weapons. At this point, Canada's contribution of weapons is limited to seven million dollars' worth of small arms and related equipment. But critics are calling that a step in the wrong direction. Peggy Mason is the president of the Rideau Institute, a non-governmental organization that promotes multilateral cooperation, the peaceful resolution of disputes, and the strengthening of international law. We reached her in Ottawa.

CO: Peggy, I understand you were not happy to hear Justin Trudeau promising deadly weapons to Ukraine. Why not?

PEGGY MASON: Well, basically because uncharacteristically, Canada has not been supporting a diplomatic solution to get us out of this… of this crisis we're in. In fact, within NATO, Canada has been seen as one of the hard-liners with respect to Ukraine. And therefore, the decision prior to this one to provide assistance, military assistance, but not weapons, although we were told the question was still open, was taken by… by some of us as a very encouraging sign that Canada was actually going to start engaging using the influence. We have much more directly in support of the diplomatic process.

CO: Okay, but just a second there. Just one of the issues is that Canada is not at the big table, right? I mean, this is something that Washington, to some extent France, Russia, Vladimir Putin and, of course, Ukraine, they are involved in that. But Canada doesn't have a seat at the table. So what does it mean? What was it supposed to have done?

PM: First of all, we can indicate that we believe that the diplomatic solution is the only way forward. And the strongest… in fact, the really the main statement that's been made on that has actually come from Admiral Eyre, the chief of defence staff, where he emphasized that it's a matter of deterrence but also dialogue with diplomacy. But Canada, in this case, has actually the ability to play a very important role in helping Ukraine with implementation of the Minsk agreements.

CO: But when you say that Canada could play a role, what is Ukraine asking for? Has Ukraine asked Canada to play? It seems that Ukraine, at this point, is saying what it needs is military hardware. It feels it's on the eve of being invaded, so does it make sense?

PM: Well, actually, Ukraine has made it clear all along, quite understandably, that they much prefer a diplomatic solution to a war. So there's no question. And in fact, up until very recently, the president of Ukraine has been saying over and over again, all of this hyping of the… of the threat is not helping. And by that, he was talking about the western hyping of the threat because, you know, Russia has… has… has repeated over and over that it doesn't intend to invade.

CO: But in recent days, he has changed somewhat. And as we move into that window when there has been a suspicion that Russia might move, that is when we have seen President Zelenskyy actually say, this is what I need. So, hasn't there been a shift in recent days?

PM: There's nothing new with respect to President Zelenskyy saying that he wants, you know, he wants military support. I mean, he… what he really wants is he wants NATO to say that they'll fight on… on his behalf or… or that countries will fight with him. And they said he's not, and he's not going to get that. But he's made it absolutely clear that he wants military assistance. But at the same time, he's made it absolutely clear that he wants a diplomatic solution. And… and the change now is that he has… he has stopped directly saying to the West, please stop the hype. Because he has received information. I'm not party to the information. It's… but we are told that he has received information that there seems to be, you know, a further build-up. Although now today we're seeing evidence, and there seems to be from what we can tell evidence of Russia moving back. But the key point here is… is that the only sane way out of it is a diplomatic solution, and all of the parties involved are all committed to that. One of the things that's so… that's so problematic about this, I mean, in all of the meetings, including the most recent meetings that have been held by all of the key players, they have repeated that the only solution is a diplomatic solution. And furthermore, this is with respect to the Ukraine conflict. They have said the only way forward is full implementation of the Minsk agreements.

CO: But I mean, isn't one of the key problems with the Minsk agreement is that Ukraine doesn't want it? I mean, that's kind of key, isn't it?

PM: Well, you say they don't want it then… then you have to say, who is saying this. Because if you look at President Zelensky's meetings with all key players right up until now, he is saying full reaffirmation of the implementation of the Minsk accords as the only way forward. In fact, he was elected on this basis. Implementation of these agreements, but he is right. He has met, and there's absolutely no doubt that there is significant resistance to their implementation.

CO: Right.

PM: I mean, it comes down to this basic division between, you know, the Western-leaning western Ukraine and the Eastern-leaning east Ukraine, [CO chuckles] a fundamental difference of view. And that's why the… I mean, the importance of the Minsk accords is that, and this is where Canada comes in, partly in terms of helping, is that they… they suggest a federation, a federated status.

CO: What are the consequences that Canada is going to deliver $7.8 million worth of lethal equipment and ammunition to Ukraine?

PM: They're symbolic, right? I mean, in very practical terms, there of little to no military consequence. They are a symbol of reassurance, of solidarity with Ukraine. And so in that sense, you know, that that's an important message for Canada to send. But what Ukraine really needs is a diplomatic way out. And what President Zelensky needs is a country as important to him as Canada. And with the diaspora that we have and the influence, we have in Ukraine, giving him support in the hard negotiating process that he has to go through because big compromises are going to be needed in order to get the implementation of the peace agreements. And that's where Canada can help, but we haven't even given political support on it.

CO: All right. Good points. Peggy, thanks for speaking with us.

PM: You're… you're quite welcome.

CO: Bye-bye.

PM: Bye.

CH: Peggy Mason is the president of the Rideau Institute. We reached her in Ottawa.

[Music: Instrumental]

CFL Female Coach

CH: The BC Lions football team will look a little different than the rest of the CFL this season -- because of Tanya Walter. Ms. Walter has been hired as a defensive assistant for the team, which makes her the first woman to become a full-time coach in the CFL. She's from Forestburg, Alberta, and this morning she talked about what this new job means to her.

SOUNDCLIP

TANYA WALTER: It's honestly... I kind of look at it in two different ways. I mean, the first thing is just like me personally in my coaching career. To have the opportunity to take it to the next level is very exciting. I'm really looking forward to learning and growing over the next year. And then, obviously, without speaking, the female side of it is something that's quite personal to me. Being involved in women's football, being involved in girls football and really trying to create a pathway for females to be involved in football as a whole. So this reflects really nicely on that. And I just think the two pieces coming together are very valuable.

MARK CONNOLLY: Now you've worked with young men in football, obviously. You mentioned the Huskies and that sort of thing. Professional football players maybe are a different thing. How do you anticipate, you know, developing that relationship with players as you do as a coach? And are you… are you worried at all? Or how do you feel about it?

TW: I know there's always going to be some things that are going to come up. I mean, in any situation where, you know, most of these players have probably not been coached by a female before. So I am very understanding towards, you know, it's a new thing. But when it comes down to it, as a coach is, if you can support your players, you can help them get better, and you can help them win. That's really… that's really, at the end of the day, what matters. Like, my phone has been absolutely blowing up the last day. It's been really overwhelming to see how much support, but I think it's also very insightful to, you know, the impact that you can have. And also, the impact that I have been able to have but never really realized along the way of, you know, trying to be mindful of all of the things happening that I have in football. So it's been… it's been a really neat experience. And I think honestly, one of the best things is, you know, some of the young girls that I have had the opportunity to coach and to have them reach out and just like just know how much it means to them because I was the female athlete that grew up with no female role models because females in sports just weren't really there yet. But I know that's changing, and I'm really happy to be a part of that.

CH: That was Tanya Walter, the first woman hired as a full-time coach in the CFL, speaking with Mark Connolly, host of Edmonton AM.

[Music: Ambient]

Part 3: Afghan Translator, Ukrainian Graphic Novelist

Afghan Translator

Guests: Qais Hassan Zada, Nicole Wood

CH: Qais Hassan Zada and his family are finally out of hiding. Since the Afghan government fell, they've been living in fear. Mr. Hassan Zada feared that his connections to the Canadian mission in Afghanistan would be revealed. And even after a dangerous escape across the border to Islamabad, the family was not safe. They'd been hiding in Pakistan since their escape in December. But now, thanks to the help of Nicole Wood -- who worked with Mr. Hassan Zada in Afghanistan -- the family has arrived in Vancouver. We reached Qais Hassan Zada in Vancouver, and Nicole Wood in Nova Scotia.

CO: Qais, I'll speak to you first. Welcome to Canada.

QAIS HASSAN ZADA: Thank you, ma’am. Thank you for having me.

CO: How does it feel? What were your thoughts and feelings when you landed in Vancouver?

QHZ: It feels amazing. It's wonderful. It's… it's feel… I can't explain. The past was a very difficult time, so it's amazing. And for the past two days, I'm feeling very relief. And it's been amazing.

CO: And all the way on the other side of the country, Nicole, you were… did so much to try and help Qais… help Qais and his family get here. How did you feel when you heard the news he’d finally arrived?

NICOLE WOOD: I… I can't… I can't really describe it. To be honest, I was floored. We were very taken aback by the sudden… the sudden departure. He… he hadn't heard from the embassy or from IOM or anybody for months, other than for a PCR test just last week. And then out of the blue it was, you're flying tonight. So I got back from dinner with my parents a few minutes away and sat down on the sofa to see if he had sent me any messages. And it was like, Oh my God! He's on his way. [CO laughs] So, yeah, I was absolutely flabbergasted.

CO: Qais, when we spoke last time with Nicole, your friend. She was describing for us just how horrible the conditions that you and your family were in, as you were waiting for Canada to do paperwork and to get you here. So, just can you give us a sense of how scared you were that the Taliban would find you before you could leave?

QHZ: It was a terrifying situation after we find out one of boss brother was arrested by the Taliban. And one of our staff members, he was also arrested by the Taliban. And they found my phone number, so I'm receiving phone calls. Actually, I had two phones, one phone for the work and one my private phone. So they got my private phone because I switched my work phone off. So it was after me. They know my name, they know everything. They want me to go for questioning. So I just kept moving place to place, place to place and hiding. I turn off everything. No phones. It just took like one month for me to get visas for Pakistan. That was a difficult Part of the… part of the time for me and my family because we have only a few places and we just… we have to keep changing this place and next place, then we have to return to the same place. So I can't explain it. It's… it's very difficult to describe that. But it was… it was horrible time for me and my family.

CO: And you’re moving from place to place. Can you tell us a bit about the conditions that you and your family were living in?

QHZ: It was very bad condition because, as you know, after the fall of Kabul, the people nearly… almost like 90 per cent of the population, they lost everything they have. We have some cash in the bank. We lost that. We don't have access in the bank. So it was very difficult. We just live in the land. As you know, I have four small children, so the winter also pushing from the other side. So that was that was very difficult time. But we passed that time. That was very difficult.

CO: What would happen to you if you… if the Taliban had caught you?

QHZ: Well, if the Taliban caught me, you can imagine if they… if they caught me, nobody will see me again. They are not good with this. And when I was crossing the border, they have this system like they have in their phones. They have names and they have picture. They are looking for the people. So when I crossed to Pakistan, I didn't go back to Afghanistan. I didn't cross the border. I stayed in Pakistan. And the night I was flying out, the immigration of Pakistan, they give me a very hard time.

CO: Because… because your tourist visa had expired, and so you were there in Pakistan illegally when you were leaving. And so did... And I understand that they did… you had a little bit of money you had left you had to use in order to pay off the… pay off the authorities?

QHZ: Actually, I didn't have anything left off because we have no money. We was living in a very, very bad condition. But the one was leaving we had over stayed like 17, 18 days. And that was going to cost us airfare, $57 U.S. per person. And we have six… family of six.

CO Nicole, just… I know how much you worked at trying to help Qais and his family get out. And so, I just wonder why you were involved with him? How did you come to know that he needed your help?

NW: I knew that anybody associated with any foreign, national, any company, any entity any embassy, military mission, they were going to be in a lot of trouble. So I knew for a fact that Qais and my other staff, that they would be in a lot of trouble. I knew that our armoured vehicles would be a nice target. I knew that the company would be a nice target for the Taliban to pick up. So we saw the writing on the wall with the fall, with the fall coming, with the signing and Qatar, the Trump peace accord, I guess is what they call it.

CO: Right, with the Taliban. But you… just so people understand, you… you had a business. You and your husband were working in Afghanistan in security operations.

NW: Correct.

CO: So people worked for you.

NW: Armoured vehicles, yeah. And Qais… Qais worked with us. He… when the new owner of the company bought the company, Qais worked for him. And that's how we met Qais. And Qais became our right hand man. [chuckle] Our right hand, our left hand, our everything. And he became a very close friend and family. He was… you know, he is our family. So.

CO: Qais, you had a horrible experience, but at the same time, you had an advocate, didn't you? You had Nicole… Nicole who was helping you. And so, what what… what happens to those you left behind who don't have someone like Nicole Wood to help them get out?

QHZ: They… they just left behind. Like in… in the same area where I left, many Afghans there actually in the same building, I was having two neighbour next to our apartment stayed there for six months, one another one for nearly like nine months now. Before the fall, they… they come to Pakistan and they stuck there.

CO: And we should just point out that the people I think you're talking about and others, thousands of them in Pakistan, these are people that Canadian government has identified as those who need our help and are people who helped Canada in Afghanistan. So these are… these are refugees that we already identify as being those who have to leave the country, right?

QHZ: Right. Correct, ma’am. They’re all registered with the… with the embassy. Like most of them, they have application number and their case is already ahead. Like this last person, I'm talking about him. I don't want to bring his name because of security. So he did even the biometric, he did even the medical check. But he's there for five months now.

CO: All right, Qais, at least we know you're safe, and I'm glad that your family has arrived. And I want to thank both of you for speaking with us. Thank you.

NW: Thank you very, very much.

QHZ: Thank you for having me.

CH: We reached Qais Hassan Zada in Vancouver, and Nicole Wood in Nova Scotia.

[Music: Ambient]

SK Unmarked Graves

CH: Chief Lee Kitchemonia says that as he's gotten older, he's come to a horrible realization. He's learned that the stories he grew up with about terrible abuse at nearby residential schools are all true. Chief Kitchemonia is the leader of Keeseekoose First Nation in Saskatchewan. This week, the community announced that a ground-penetrating radar survey at two former residential school sites had found 54 potential gravesites. Excavation is still needed to confirm those findings. But the chief says healing will take a lot more than that.

SOUNDCLIP

CHIEF LEE KITCHEMONIA: These things don't… they don't just stop as soon as the school stops. These students that learned all these behaviours, they go out into the community and they continue to live dangerous lifestyles through drug and alcohol abuse, and that's how they deal with their trauma. You know, what we want is not only closure for the graves, but… but closure, you know, to get the proper services available to help these survivors. From the people I talked to, some of them are non-believers. They think that it couldn't possibly happen under Canada's watch. And I pray for those individuals because they haven't experienced what we've experienced in First Nations people. I mean, it's far from it. Even… even as a day, school students, and the schools that we attended were basically the same teachers that they had at residential schools. And, you know, we went through the same… same type of abuses. There was a lot of sexual abuse, emotional abuse. Like in one of my classes, I was told that, you know, Indians… back then, they used the term Indians. They said the Indians were pretty much a substandard people and that we would never amount to… to what a white man could, you know, could accomplish just because we were Indians, and that was the fact. That's what my Grade 7 teacher had told me. So that… that trauma, it just didn't stop when residential school stopped. It still goes on here today, you know, because you know, the message that they give in classrooms, you know, that's supposed to be all fact, eh? But really, what they were teaching was just their own personal racist beliefs. And they were passing them on to us. And then a lot of students were believing it. So my message to other First Nations is just, you know, keep on fighting for it. You know, because these abuses are real. You know, and there's other First Nations in our… in our province that are fighting for it. We're one of them. And we're not going to stop until we get some answers.

CH: That was Chief Lee Kitchemonia from the Keeseekoose First Nation in Saskatchewan, speaking with the CBC's Peter Mills.

[Music: Ambient]

Long COVID

CH: As restrictions ease in parts of the country, there's a sense that life may, finally, be on the verge of going back to normal. But for some, COVID isn't going away. Its impact continued after they were diagnosed. And their symptoms didn't subside even after a negative PCR test. Long COVID exists -- and those suffering from it aren't experiencing a return to normalcy at all. Jonah McGarva is a resident of Burnaby B.C. who is living with Long COVID -- and he's co-founded a patient advocacy group called Long Covid Canada, which aims to raise awareness about its effects. And to get people the medical attention they need.

SOUNDCLIP

JONAH MCGARVA: It's almost like I can kind of predict how the day is going to go when I wake up in the morning. And I typically know I have a window of about two to four hours after I wake up where I can take a shower. I can eat. I can talk on the phone for maybe a half-hour. I can answer a couple of emails, but then I have to go back to bed. I just… I cannot function. And it's not even a question of going to sleep. It's just I can't even sit up straight. Like, I'm out of breath. Like, I feel like I'm running a marathon while I'm sitting in my office chair. And I'll be honest, it creates a lot of anxiety and stress on my… my relationship with my wife because she's my… now, my primary caregiver, and it really puts a limit on your life. I'm freshly married. I wanted to start a family. I was working in national radio, working a job that I had dreamed of since I was a boy, and none of those things are a priority for me now. My priority is trying to get out of bed in the morning. My priority is trying to take a shower and not fall down in the bathroom afterwards because I can't even keep myself up anymore in the shower. I'll be honest with you, it's highly embarrassing to be in that position. We have a backlog of patients in this province who come from the same time that I did that aren't in clinics currently or they… until today, they've still been turned away because of negative PCRs or not even referrals because some people haven't had doctors who've been on their side. They say it's allergies, or they say it's, you know, X, Y and Z. It's something other than long COVID. So they can go through the referral process any further. And I wonder what's going to happen to these patients?

CH: That was Jonah McGarva -- the co-founder and director of Long Covid Canada -- speaking with the CBC's Rohit Joseph from Burnaby, B.C.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

Ukrainian Graphic Novelist

Guest: Andrei Kurkov

CH: The threat of conflict in Ukraine doesn't seem to have curbed Andrei Kurkov's creativity. Mr. Kurkov is a Russian-born, Kyiv-based novelist, journalist, and satirist and one of Ukraine's most prominent literary exports. His latest work is a graphic novel. The pictures aren't his, but the words and the story are. The book is a retelling of a Ukrainian fable about a war between some mushrooms and some peas. In the usual telling, the bad guys are the mushrooms. But in Mr. Kurkov's version, the guy to watch out for is a royal pea with a certain resemblance to Vladimir Putin. We reached Andrei Kurkov in Kyiv.

CO: Andrei, just first of all, what is it like daily life right now in Kiev? I know you've been out and about you. You're at a film premiere. You went to an event. What… what's… what's it like?

ANDREI KURKOV: Well, I think from one side, it looks like usual. The cafes are buzzing, the streets are full with young people, and everything seems okay. No panic. Everything is available in the shops, but at the same time, more than 20 jets, private jets, with oligarchs left Kiev in the last several days. And there are rumours that some drivers are going in their cars to the petrol station in the night to fill the tanks just in case.

CO: [chuckling] It's always a bad sign when the oligarchs are flying out in their jets, right? So that… that must send some signals to people. So why do you think people are not panicking then?

AK: I think they are tired of being afraid. Because the war is going on in Donbas already eight years. Also, I think they were sort of vaccinated against the fear of war in 2014, in March, when Russian parliament voted to allow Russian army to attack other countries. So then, it was a real fear. And I remember myself how I was afraid of the Crimean War because I was watching as many Ukrainians this sitting of the Russian parliament on TV. And now, it seems that while the war is there anyway in Donbas. If there will be a big war, Ukraine cannot escape it. So it depends on Putin's decision. If Ukraine cannot escape it, all Ukrainians, 40 million, cannot escape to Poland or to Canada or anywhere else. So, I mean, there is probably some kind of strange mixture of optimism and fatalism.

CO: We have tried to get a grip on an understanding of what is going on and, like everybody else, trying to understand what is Vladimir Putin up to? But you're taking us into a really interesting insight with this. Your latest work, this graphic novel that's based on this fable of the mushrooms and the peas, which hasn't been… this last came out in 1918. What… what made you want to retell that story now?

AK: Well, 1918 it was the year when Ukraine tried to be independent and was independent for several months. And then, Russian and Ukrainian Communists, or Bolsheviks, took it over. And approximately in this time, the artist, very famous Ukrainian artist, Narbut, published this graphic novel with a fairy tale about the war between peas and mushrooms. And in this traditional version of the fairy tale, the mushrooms were nasty and wanted to take over the fields where peas were growing. I decided to change their role because, I mean, it looks to me that Ukraine is more like a forest, and we have a lot of forest. And so, I mean, in my story, the tsar of peas is trying to take over the forest. And the mushrooms have to decide to defend the forest or to give up. And one of the mushrooms has actually organized the defence. And not all mushrooms want to defend their forest.

CO: And Vladimir Putin is your… your tsar of the peas. Your king of the peas, right?

AK: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

CO: And this is all… this book is coming out as we see Russian troops still at the border. We are today or yesterday learning that Vladimir Putin says that the exercises are finished. He is withdrawing those troops. We don't know what to believe at that point. But we're also, as you point out, we are still seeing this war in the east that is killing so many people. And so, how do you compare that world with your world of peas and mushrooms?

AK: Well, I mean, the colour of peas is green. And actually, the Russian officers and the soldiers who were taken over… annexing Crimea, they were called by Putin and by Russians green men because they didn't wear the signifi. I mean, it was impossible to say which army they belonged to or what was their rank. So, I mean, they just took over Crimean Peninsula, annexed it and then became heroes in Russia. And they even had films about green men. And songs about nice green men. And they were also called polite green men. [CO chuckles] And so can you imagine polite green men killing innocent people? I can. And so, I mean, for me, it is easy to… to see them as green peas that are trying actually to… to kill the mushrooms because mushrooms don't want to be considered the same kind of vegetables.

CO: But what does… what does the king of the peas… what does Vladimir Putin really want at this point? What's he trying to achieve?

AK: Well, I mean, he achieved a lot. I think he achieved the situation when European Union doesn't have one monolithic voice. So, I mean, the European Union lost many voices, and those which are heard belong to their representatives are separate countries. So the voice of the United States and Canada and England, I mean, these voices are sounding much louder than European Union's voice. He wants actually the world to be afraid of the Russian Empire. He want the world to treat Russian Empire or Russia just like China. Your trade with Russia, you don't ask about human rights. You don't criticize Russia for its politics, et cetera. So I mean, they want to be considered a superpower which cannot be criticized, and we should be respected and even feared.

CO: So, do you think the king of the peas has already achieved what he wanted to do? Has Vladimir Putin actually got what he wanted in this… these past month?

AK: I think my half… half of what he wanted, he received. He got it. Not now everybody is trying to visit him. Macron was there, Olaf Scholz was there, the other members of governments of Britain, et cetera. So because I mean, he was isolated after 2014, after annexation of Crimea, nobody wanted to talk to him. Now everybody wants to talk to him. And it is up to him whether there will be a new war in Europe, which will echo everywhere. Or there will be some kind of peace, but very unstable, very fragile.

CO: When Ukrainians read your… your graphic novel, what do you think, given what they know about all these things and this history, what will they take away from your book?

AK: [chuckling] I don't know, really yet. I hope they will get some courage and they will be inspired. And also, they will be inspired, probably to go to their original edition with Narbut's illustrations. And maybe they will be interested to see the similar situation in Ukraine in history in 1918, when Ukraine could not stand for its independence. And in the end, actually gave it up.

CO: They also know that peas don't survive in the forest, do they?

AK: No, they do not survive in the forest, but you can freeze them very well [CO chuckles], and you can buy them in the shops.

CO: Andrei, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

AK: Thank you very much.

CO: Bye-bye.

AK: Bye-bye.

CH: Andrei Kurkov is a Ukrainian author and satirist. We reached him in Kyiv.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

FOA: P.J. O'Rourke Obit

CH: Since the news of P.J. O'Rourke's death, his fans and friends have been sharing their favourite lines from the best-selling American author and conservative political satirist. There's "Politicians are wonderful people as long as they stay away from things they don't understand, such as working for a living." Or, "Always read something that will make you look good if you die in the middle of it." Over his career, Mr. O'Rourke wrote more than 20 books. He was the editor-in-chief of the humour magazine National Lampoon and later led the foreign-affairs desk at Rolling Stone. He was a regular columnist and guest on the news. And as a conservative with a gift for making people laugh, he was able to cut across the political divide -- getting praise even from those who didn't agree with him. P.J. O'Rourke died yesterday. He was 74. In 2007, he spoke with Carol about his new work on a book we're all familiar with but more than likely haven't read: Adam Smith's 1776 tome, The Wealth of Nations. Here's some of their conversation, from our archives.

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CO: Now, before we talk about what you wrote in this book about Wealth of Nations, maybe you can explain why you decided to accept this mission?

P.J. O’ROURKE: Oh, I was broke. It's the usual writers sort of thing. The series that we're doing is books that changed the world. It was the idea of my… my publisher. And I was in London, and I was in his office, and he was telling me about this series. And he said, why don't you do the the Adam Smith thing? He said, you've read this stuff. And I said, oh, sure, I have. [CO chuckles] And then I crack it open, and I realize it's 900 pages long. And, no, I haven't read it, as a matter of fact.

CO: But had you read it at all? I mean, even cramming parts of it to get to the exam or anything of that nature?

PO: Not when I was in school, but I had read… I had read in the Wealth of Nations because I'd been writing about economics for… for about 10 years. And I thought I'd read a fair amount of it. I didn't realize how truly much there was. Plus, there's a whole 'nother book by Smith, The Theory of Moral Sentiments. And without reading that, you really can't understand what he's… what he's on about in the wealth of nations very well. So… so the project itself, it only took me about six months to write the book. It took me, however, before that a year and a half to do the reading in order to write the book.

CO: He's… now, tell us… we should talk about Adam Smith and what he says. Because he gets, I guess, misquoted as often as he gets quoted. And one of the assumptions that you debunk is that he was the father of the idea of laissez-faire economics. The ideas of leaving it alone. Tell me… tell me really what he represents.

PO: What he does. What Smith does at the end of the 18th century is that he lays the moral and ethical, and logical foundations for a free market system. A free-market system is not to be confused with laissez-faire. Smith knew that phrase. He knew the French physiocrats who were probably the first people to…. first people to try and take a systematic approach to economics. First people to call themselves economists, as a matter of fact. And the first people to… to… to… to come up with the idea that government should basically stay out of economic planning.

CO: But the idea was that the people have presumed that Smith thought there was no role for government or that government should be an extremely invisible creature. But he did prescribe a role for government, did he not?

PO: Yes, absolutely. He's not a libertarian in that sense. I mean, he definitely is a believer in minimal government interference. But… but… but he's a believer in strong government interference when… when that interference is needed.

CO: Now, what would he say of our modern systems, of our social safety nets, our education system, our health care systems, all these other programs?

PO: Well, it's a bit of a difference between what he'd say about ours down here in the States and what he'd say about yours up there in Canada. [CO chuckles] He would regard them as being, you know, far too large and to occupy far too much of the… of our gross domestic product. For a simple reason that… that individual spending is always more efficient than government spending. Smith said of government, he said government should never presume to intrude upon the economic affairs of private persons because private persons have a history of frugality and care of their own needs and welfare and well-being. And the government has a history of… of profligate spending and no care or frugality whatsoever.

CH: From our archives, that was American conservative satirist P.J. O'Rourke speaking with Carol in 2007. Mr. O'Rourke died this week. He was 74.

February 16, 2022 Episode Transcript

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