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The AIH transcript for February 14, 2023

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

TALIA SCHLANGER: Good evening, I'm Talia Schlanger, sitting in for Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[music: theme]

Prologue

TS: Tonight:

NK: The cruellest lesson. With a gunman on campus, A Michigan State University grad student learns he and his colleagues can convert a study room into a panic room -- but says that should never happen again.

TS: You can't fight city hall. A city councillor says Mayor John Tory should not be resigned to the idea of resigning because his admitted affair with a former staffer shouldn't stop him from leading Canada's biggest city.

NK: Snit happens. A German critic gives a dance performance a negative review. But then, like something out of a movie, an offended choreographer attacks her with something out of a dog.

TS: The wrong side of the tracks. The derailment and chemical leak in Ohio may seem unimaginable, but a conductor and safety expert with the Railroad Workers Union says this is exactly what he imagined and feared would happen.

NK: Form a line on the right. Former Governor Nikki Haley decries the, quote, socialist left, as she announces she's running for the Republican nomination. And one supporter says she is tough enough to defeat Donald Trump.

TS: And… belly flop. A Florida python's appetite is her own undoing when she's tracked down after eating a possum -- and the possums tracking collar.

TYS: As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that would have assumed this was beyond the bounds of possum mobility.

Part 1: Michigan Mass Shooting, German Dance Critic Smear, Nikki Haley

Michigan Mass Shooting

Guest: Graham Diedrich

TS: It's supposed to be a safe place to learn, a safe place to meet people and make new friends -- a safe place for young people to discover what they're passionate about. Instead, Michigan State University is the site of the latest mass shooting in the United States. At least three people are dead, and five people are injured after a shooter opened fire on the campus last night -- before turning the gun on himself. Officials say all the victims were students. In Michigan this morning, Dr. Denny Martin -- Chief Medical Officer of E.W. Sparrow Hospital -- gave an update on the injured students who were treated overnight. And then, he broke down.

SOUNDCLIP

DENNY MARTIN: All five individuals remain in critical condition this morning. I just… I want to thank the overwhelming response from our team, everyone in our Level one trauma centre. This is something we've talked about this morning that we… that we practice for very often but never want to have to do. And we… we did it amazingly well, and I'm very proud of everyone. The team was led by our emergency department physicians, again, with our… our trauma surgeons. But can't forget we had general surgeons, cardiothoracic surgeons, neurosurgeons. [sniffling and crying] Didn't get a lot of sleep last night, sorry. But with so many people that just came in. We received a lot of texts that were just, you know, I'm on my way. Just with people showing up, where do you need me? It was… it was… it was a sad but very proud night for all of us here.

TS: That was Dr. Denny Martin, speaking this morning. Graham Diedrich is a 21-year-old grad student at Michigan State University. He did his undergrad there too, and also grew up in the area. We reached him earlier today at his apartment, about 10 minutes away from the East Lansing campus.

NK: Graham, how did you get through the night? How are you holding up?

GRAHAM DIEDRICH: I got through the night with friends and family. Once I had made it out, I contacted them and let them know that I was safe. Before then, I got through it with the others around me. You know, we kind of all had to be there for each other. Relying on the human connections when you're in that study room is… is important.

NK: And that was the study room in the library on campus. Is that right?

GD: That's right.

NK: So, you were studying there and sort of a normal Monday night. Can you tell me when you heard that something was going on?

GC: I work as a consultant for The Writing Center at Michigan State. I was working with a client on a scholarship letter. I heard some murmurs in the background as people took phone calls to talk to their loved ones and heard some police sirens. I turned to one of my co-workers and asked what was going on. And that's when she told me that there was an active shooter situation. That's how we… we found out. And we were presented with an email from the university shortly thereafter.

NK: Have you ever been in that kind of situation before?

GC: I have never been in that kind of situation before. I've been trained because, in the United States, we're trained from a very young age how to respond to these types of incidents. Because you're always living under the assumption when you walk into a school or a place of education that someone could be there trying to harm you and others around you.

NK: How did that training, as you put it, kick in? What did you do in the library to try to stay safe? Because you didn't know where this shooter was, right?

GD: Yeah, we really were very confused from the beginning. The guidance we received from the university was to run, hide and fight. We weren't necessarily certain where the first shots had originated from. And we shortly learned that they had originated from the student union right across from our library. So, I went down to the front desk to make sure that they had locked those main doors and that they were secure. I went back up to the third floor, where myself and some fellow writing centre staff were working. And I essentially organized everyone, and we all agreed we weren't willing to die. You know, we weren't going to put our lives on the line there. So, we found a study room in the back and put shelving units and tables in front to essentially barricade ourselves in.

NK: Those calculations, those… those conversations that you have to have in those moments.

GD: Yeah.

NK: It's staggering just to imagine.

GD: Yes.

NK: And then you tried to call your… your family members. And when you talk to your fiancee and your mom, what are those conversations like? What did you say?

GD: They were strangely mundane. I called my mom and just told her, hey, Mom, there's an active shooter situation at Michigan State. She was like, Oh my God. And I was like, oh, I'll be fine. You know, this sort of thing happens. And I called my fiancee; she was at Lansing Community College's East Campus, which is also very close to Michigan State. So I called her to make sure she was okay. And, yeah, it's a very surreal experience, but unfortunately, it's not a unique one in this country.

NK: When did you get word that it was… it was safe to leave where you were hiding?

GD: Throughout the night, we… you know, we're dealing with people in difficult circumstances which would often lead to false claims, misinformation, not purposefully, but we would hear reports, you know, the shooter had been neutralized. There were remaining shooters at large. So, we really found out after listening to a police report coming in from a press conference. We were all huddled over a laptop, and that's when we found out that the threat had been neutralized. We were still very afraid to walk out.

NK: Yeah.

GD: Like, I felt a very visceral reaction walking out of that library because that library was what was keeping us safe. And I had never had that experience. I've walked out of that library I can't even count how many times as a student. And no one should have to go through that, I think.

NK: No, you're right.

GD: Regardless of the motive, in terms of the perpetration of this heinous act against our community, I think that we all know what the solution is. And the solution is common sense public safety reforms that will keep all of us safe, regardless of where we are. Our politicians, a majority of them in some circumstances, are unwilling to act on our behalf. And I… I think that they would act differently if they were in the situation that we were in. If they were in that library, afraid for their lives. If their children were in that situation.

NK: Is there help for you from the school or through the healthcare system to help you get through this time?

GD: There is help, fortunately, through the school and through community services. My only concern would be how long do those services last. I think you might be alluding to it. We have a lot of problems with our healthcare system. And if people are unable to access the long term mental health care that they deserve, how will they get over this issue?

NK: How do you think you're going to get through this time and, you know, be able to go back to class? You know, they're cancelled this week, but to go back to class and to go back to that library, which was such an important and safe space for you?

GD: I think it's… it's going to take time. It's going to mean talking to other folks that have been affected, family and friends, and just knowing that we're all there for each other is important. And understanding that something good will come of this. I mean, this is just so awful for our community, and I just hope that someone, somewhere, will address it. We need fundamental change in this country to ensure people are safe and can live their lives. And if I don't see that, that's going to give me a lot of pain.

NK: Graham, thank you so much for talking to me.

GD: Thank you.

NK: Take care.

GD: Bye-bye.

TS: That was Michigan State University grad student Graham Diedrich in Haslett, Michigan.

[music: ambient]

German Dance Critic Smear

Guest: Wiebke Hüster

TS: As fields of arts journalism go, dance criticism is supposed to be relatively refined. But on Saturday, a German dance critic named Wiebke Hüster was assaulted by a choreographer wielding a bag of something that should have been left at the local dog park. The choreographer was Marco Goecke. He's won awards in the past, but Ms. Hüster didn't think too much of one of his recent productions, and said so in a review for the prestigious Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. That negative review seemed to be very much on Mr. Goecke's mind when he saw Ms. Hüster on Saturday at the Hanover State Opera. We reached Wiebke Hüster in Frankfurt.

NK: Wiebke, what were you thinking as Marco Goecke approached you, confronted you at the opera on Saturday?

WIEBKE HÜSTER: You know, it started as quite normal conversation. He addressed me, and I thought, okay, he has, of course, read that bad review of his work. So, he maybe wants a conversation. He wants to tell me that he is angry and what he thinks he did with this piece, and what I didn't see, maybe. So, I thought fair enough. I wrote this. But now, I… of course, I go into a conversation with you. Of course. So, the first thing he says to me is, Wiebke, what are you doing here anyways? And I'm like, look, I'm a dance critic, and I'm here to review this evening. Then he said to me, you know, you should get a house ban. I didn't comment on this because, of course, you cannot exclude the free press from a performance just because before, you have received a not-so-good review. So, I thought… actually, at that point, I thought it rather childish of him. So, I decided in order not to… to make him angry, I decided not to comment on that. But then, he went on, and he said to me, because you always write these horrible, personal things about my work. So, I said, Mr. Goecke, I think you are terribly wrong in this point. I do not write any personal articles against someone. I don't do that. I commented on your piece. And in this case, I did not think it was a good piece. In other cases and other pieces, I cherished them. I wrote good reviews about other pieces by you. But… so he said to me, yes, but people here in Hanover have noticed and are upset about it. And I said, yes, but this remark of you is that I quote in my article that you make your best pieces in the heart. There was no need to say something like that. In the very moment, I didn't even see the movement he made with his arm. But he must have grabbed this dog poo bag out of his pocket of the trouser pocket or pocket of the jacket. And really smeared brutally, violently rubbed it into my face.

NK: oh my God.

WH: You know, he --

NK: Dog feces?

WH: Exactly. Yeah, dog feces. Exactly, excrement. And he… he pressed the back with the open side into my face so that the dog feces would even stick to my face. It was a nightmare. It was so horrible. And it all went so fast. I didn't even realize until he threw the bag on the floor. And that was the moment I realized what had happened and what this substance in my face was. And I screamed.

NK: And did anyone help you after that? What did you do? Did you… did you leave the theatre or what?

WH: Yeah, I said to the people around me, I said, do you know who that was? Do you know who that was who did this just right now to me? It was your ballet director. It was Marco Goecke. And he did it because I'm the dance critic of the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. Quite a silly thing to say, but I felt like… like… like a child completely abandoned, humiliated. I didn't know what to do. And that second, the press officer stepped up to me and said, let me help you. And I said, please bring me to the ladies room immediately so I can clean my face. So, I did that. Then, I called my husband, the chief editor, Jürgen Kaube. And I said, Jürgen, Jürgen, something terrible has happened to me. You have to help me. You have to write the story down. I want this in the paper told, so that everybody knows what he did. That was so extremely important to me, that very moment. And then, I left afterwards. I left the theatre, and I reported to the police.

NK: And we know, Wiebke, that the police are investigating what happened.

WH: Yes.

NK: The opera company has called this a, quote, impulsive reaction on Mr. Goecke's part. In an interview, he said that you, quote, threw dirt. She threw dirt at me for over 20 years. And, at some point, I asked myself the question whether I want that. How would other people react who work hard, having dirt thrown at them over such a long time frame? What would you say?

WH: This is a legend. You know, he's trying to create the legend that I have been torturing him for 20 years with my bad reviews. That's the first part of the legend. And this is not true. It's 17 years that I have been writing about Marco Goecke. And in all these years, I have written no more than nine articles. And out of these nine articles, two were overwhelmingly positive. And even in my last bad review, I mention how extremely interesting his movement language is. And how even in the middle of this piece, some minutes are just gorgeous. So, it's simply not true. And believe me, if I… I checked on him from time to time to see a new piece to see whether I liked it better. But I have better things to do than… than travel through Europe and… and see pieces that I probably will not like that much. I don't do that. And the second thing is he committed a criminal act. And he tried to play it down. And he tries to play it down by saying this was an impulsive act. Please, believe me, it was not. Because you don't normally walk around the theatre with an open dog poop bag in your pocket that is filled, right? So, that's what you did. It wasn't even closed. He had it in his pocket. And he talked to me in a very calm way because if he had talked aggressively to me, I would have maybe turned my back on him. And then, he wouldn't have the possibility to do this, to commit this crime. So, he talked calmly and, after two or three sentences, decided now's the moment. And then, he did it. That's not impulsive.

NK: Wiebke, I do have to leave it there, but I'm very glad you're okay. Thanks so much for making time for us.

WH: You're welcome. Thank you very much.

TS: Wiebke Hüster is a dance critic at the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. We reached her in Frankfurt.

[music: instrumental]

Nikki Haley

Guest: Katon Dawson

TS: The race has begun. Until today, Donald Trump was the only major figure officially running for the Republican nomination for president. Now Nikki Haley has jumped in. The former governor of South Carolina -- who served as Mr. Trump's ambassador to the United Nations -- is his first rival, although she likely won't be the last. In the video launching her campaign, she didn't mention the former president by name. Instead, she reserved her criticism for the Democrats and the political left.

SOUNDCLIP

[music: that inspirational piano music that is usually in campaign ads or spiritual videos]

NIKKI HALEY: Some look at our past as evidence that America's founding principles are bad. They say the promise of freedom is just made up. Some think our ideas are not just wrong, but racist and evil. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have seen evil. In China, they commit genocide. In Iran, they murder their own people for challenging the government. And when a woman tells you about watching soldiers throw her baby into a fire, it puts things in perspective.

TS: Nikki Haley, from a video announcing her run for the Republican presidential nomination. Katon Dawson is the former party chair in Ms. Haley's home state of South Carolina. He's backing her. We reached him in Columbia, South Carolina.

NK: Katon, why do you think Nikki Haley is throwing her head in now?

KATON DAWSON: Well, she spent the last four or five years preparing to help people get elected as conservative Republicans all over the country. She was a former two-term governor of the state of South Carolina, one of the toughest places there is to get elected to anything. Anything. Completely underestimated in everything she's ever done. She's our friend. She was our former two-term governor, was obviously the ambassador to the United Nations. And just a really, really neat, nice person. I've known her since she first entered politics in the early 2000s. And that's a story in itself.

NK: Well, tell me a little bit about that and why you wanted to back her?

KD: Well, we're working really, really hard in South Carolina to help diversify the Republican Party. You know, you have to go back to history and remember, this is the eighth state to enter the union. We got people all over the state that are related to people who were here when the revolution started, my family being one. So, we kind of understand politics. It's a tough and rough and tumble place to get elected. As someone said, you've got to go see this young lady who's giving out doughnuts in the middle school arms as the kids are dropping off their parents. And then, they said and she looks different. And she's running against a 30-year incumbent. I said, well, I’ll have some entertainment. I want to go see that. So, I pulled up and Nikki's got a couple of her volunteers and doughnuts. And as they pull up to the school, she rolls down the window, introduces herself, gives them a doughnut, tells us she's running for the state house and wants to change the way it runs. And can you put a bumper sticker on the car? And about every one of them put a bumper sticker on. Now, either that doughnut was that good or Nikki's that good a salesperson. One or the other. So, I introduced myself to her. She didn't know who I was, but I was chairman of the political party. But neither here nor there. I even asked for a doughnut. And for a minute, I thought she wasn’t going to give me one. She asked me if I live in her district and I said no. And then, she finally pushed one of those doughnuts over my way and the rest is sort of history. She told me she was going to win that race. And I walked away thinking, hmmm. You're going to beat Larry, who's a 30-year incumbent, bank account full of money. Nobody knows who you are. And she told me when she looked at me, she said, you know, I'm going to win, don't you? Hmmm, okay. Well, she did.

NK: Well, people certainly know Nikki Haley now. But this is a different kind of fight with other big name potential contenders, Ron DeSantis, Donald Trump, certainly. She's only polling in the single digits at this moment. So, what do you think her chances really are?

KD: I think her chances are pretty good. First, she's a ferocious campaigner from a tough state. Second of all, she's well-known in the Republican Party. I'm not worried about what the digits are now. The question is, has former President Trump hit his ceiling? Is there a lane? If it stays at 33 or 36 per cent, is there a lane for someone like Nikki Haley to win? Is there a lane for a new generation of Americans to take over and really try to piece together the Republican Party, which is sort of in shatters? We'll see. You know, can't just anybody run for president.

NK: No.

KD: And certainly, if she wasn't credible, you wouldn’t be calling me from Canada and asking me about her. So, she's pretty credible.

NK: And she's the first officially out of the gate. Nikki Haley is also a woman of colour, as you've talked about. She's different, as you… as you said in your view. But I wonder, you know, is she already stoking division even with her initial video that she posted on her social media today? Stoking division right off the bat by suggesting, you know, that people who… who criticize the United States or maybe want to make it better, maybe talk about racism in the U.S., are not doing the right thing, and even suggesting that they're painting an incorrect picture or lying about the United States. Is that the right kind of message to be sending to take the Republican Party in a different direction than… than Donald Trump?

KD: I don't know. I’ll have to let you ask that question to Nikki Haley one day. But I can tell you that she does speak what her heart tells her to say. And we'll have to see how this campaign unfolds. Right now, she gets to define herself. And we'll see what the opposition does. Certainly, she's prepared and ready for hand-to-hand combat because that's what a presidential race is.

NK: Does it concern you, though? Does it concern you that kind of… that kind of conversation? Or does it… does it make you think that she's going in the right direction for the party?

KD: It's what primaries are about. I mean, you got to have a conversation if you're going to win something and you got to have dialogue started on certain places. And some of these topics are hard to… hard to have. And it takes somebody who's willing… who's willing to force the conversation. And the Republican Party right now needs a conversation about who it is, what it is, and where it's going.

NK: What do you think her biggest challenge is going to be?

KD: Everybody's challenge is going to be money.

NK: Yeah.

KD: I mean, you’ve got to have a proper amount of money to be able to run in 10 states. Everybody's challenged. And then you got to have the infrastructure. Nikki has built the infrastructure to start tomorrow. Our presidential races run… are certainly unusual events that come pretty hard and are pretty expensive. So, that's probably the biggest challenge is making sure that she can financially do it. And this race has started pretty late.

NK: Donald Trump has not criticized Nikki Haley yet since this announcement at least. Do you think that's going to change now that she's officially declared her intentions?

KD: [chuckling] Of course.

NK: They're braced for that?

KD: I watched them dismantle 16 Republicans, one after the other. Sure. You know, if you can't take Donald Trump, you certainly can't take the liberals and the progressives on the side. So, you got to be able to handle… handle Donald Trump before you handle the rest of them.

NK: Do you think… you talked about that she's… she's nice. Do you think she can handle that?

KD: I do. I do. I do. I do. She can take it as well as give it.

NK: Let me just ask you about South Carolina then, before we let you go sir, if you don't mind. A Trump-backer in your state, treasurer Curtis Loftis, thinks Ms. Haley doesn't stand a chance against the former president, even in her own state. So, what happens if she… if she gets defeated?

KD: That's a hypothetical. I don't know. [NK chuckles] We will see what happens. She's never lost, and neither has Curtis, by the way. And Curtis is a dear friend of mine. We went to school together. But, I mean, he has an opinion. And… and… and Trump's going to be tough. But has Trump hit the ceiling? We don't know. We don't know. And if Trump wins, we'll all be for him.

NK: Okay. Katon Dawson, thank you for your time.

KD: Sure. Thank you. Bye.

TS: Katon Dawson is the former chair of the South Carolina Republican Party. He was in Columbia, South Carolina.

[music: chillhop]

Part 2: Tory Stays, Ohio Derailment: Union Member

Tory Stays

Guest: Jon Burnside

NK: On Friday night, The Toronto Star broke a huge story about the city's mayor, John Tory. Just one hour later, Mr. Tory confirmed that it was true. He had had an affair with a junior staffer. He apologized, and he stepped down as mayor of Toronto. Never to be seen again. Except, of course, on Monday when he was back at city hall, saying he would stay on to finalize the city's operating and capital budgets. It all happened so fast, but having had a few days to think, some people have decided Mr. Tory shouldn't step down at all. People like city councillor Jon Burnside, who's asking the mayor to rethink his resignation. We reached Councillor Burnside in Toronto.

NK: Councillor Burnside, Mayor Tory has made it pretty clear that he intends to resign. Why do you think he should stay?

JON BURNSIDE: Well, I think there are quite a few reasons. First of all, we… we just had an election a few months ago where he got almost 70 per cent of the vote. And the feedback I'm getting from my constituents, but as well across the city, is overwhelmingly in favour of him staying. They don't want a costly election. And they, like myself, think he's the best person for the job.

NK: If we take a step back and just rewind to last Friday when… when the story of John Tory's affair with his former junior staffer broke. How surprised were you?

JB: Well, to see the story, I wasn't that surprised.

NK: Really?

JB: Because The Toronto Star had been calling me, asking me if I knew anything. But as you know, I wasn't around in the last term, so I had nothing of value to add. Of course, I was totally shocked by the story itself and then devastated by Mayor Tory's response.

NK: Have you had a chance to speak to him yet?

JB: Yes, I did - spoke to him last night.

NK: Can you share any… any details of that conversation?

JB: Yeah. You know, Councillor Francis Nunziata and myself are, amongst others, we're imploring him to stay. You know, I received a call from a constituent of mine who is of Muslim faith Saturday morning. And I… and I relayed this message to Mayor Tory, and he said to me, he said, what happens if he resigns? Who will speak for us? And, you know, that really struck home with me because Mayor Tory's legacy, in my opinion, it's about people, not things. And it's about bringing people together and giving voice to those who don't necessarily have voice. And I challenge anyone to find me someone, whether it's on the municipal level, provincial level or federal level, who has that track record or that ability to give voice to people.

NK: There are others who feel differently, as you well know, about Mr. Tory's time and what his legacy might be, even before this story was… was published. But if we go to the issue that that story was about and the reality that we're in right now that Mr. Torrey did, as he has admitted, have an affair with a staffer much younger than him. There's a power imbalance there just by virtue of his role and the age difference. What would you call it if it wasn't an abuse of power?

JB: Well, you know, I would call it what The Toronto Star has called it and what everyone else from any reporting that I've heard is a consensual relationship unless I hear something different. I don't think that one necessarily can assume. Like, first of all, we don't know anything more than that.

NK: Right.

JB: We don't… and I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth. I want to respect the privacy of the other individual in question. But to naturally assume that… that… that was… that just by virtue of those two facts that it was all about power, I think is… is… is… is an appropriate thing to do. If I hear something differently, then my opinion would change. But the information I have now, and believe the person in question is almost 30 years old. And, you know, until I hear it differently, to me, it's a consensual relationship, albeit inappropriate, and be very clear about that, I think the integrity commissioner needs to investigate. So, I'm in no way condoning the mayor's behaviour or the decisions he made.

NK: Um-hmm.

JB: I just don't think that the… the abuse of power is necessarily an appropriate one, certainly with the information we have.

NK: I take your point. The reason I ask that question is we've been hearing from… from folks, you know, around the city as well, including gender justice advocate Farrah Khan, who wrote on Twitter, quote, If you are a boss and have an intimate relationship with a staff person that reports to you, especially a young person much younger than you, then that is an abuse of power, close quote. That's in her view. And I've heard you there. For you, there's a distinction. Inappropriate, perhaps, but the phrase abuse of power goes too far. Have you heard any details, further details, about this young staffer's departure from city hall?

JB: No, I don't know a thing. I mean, I've heard her name, but I don't know the circumstances of when she was hired, when they had the relationship or when she left city hall. And I think the fact that we don't even know when this relationship occurred, it wasn't like someone could pinpoint it and say, oh, you know, there's a six-month period where Mayor Tory had just disappeared and wasn't doing his job. There's no such allegation, which was why I think he was very good at separating his personal poor choices with the excellent job he was doing at the same time.

NK: Do you wonder, though, or do you worry at all that because there are so many unanswered questions at this point, that asking Mayor Tory to stay could just create more chaos down the road and concerns because we don't know everything that's behind the story.

JB: And, you know, that's a valid question. So, maybe the appropriate approach would be for him to take a couple of months off, answer more questions, get some clarity to the situation, give him time to think. You know, in terms of chaos at city hall, there's chaos before. There will be chaos after. And I don't think there's an individual at city hall who will say I'm going to vote against the policy because of the person, right? So, I don't think someone's going to say, oh, I can't vote for those bike lanes because I disagree with Mayor Tory's… you know, the relationship that he had while in office.

NK: John Tory, in your conversation that you had last night, did… did Mr. Tory give you any insight into whether he might change his mind?

JB: No, he did not. He was very touched by our efforts and our support of him. But in terms of making any commitments or even giving an indication, he was really quite focused on the next few days, which is getting the budget passed, which is kind of what Mr. Tory's all about, which is thinking about the city before himself.

NK: Counsellor, we will… we will leave it there. Thank you very much for your time.

JB: My pleasure. Thanks for the opportunity.

TS: Jon Burnside is a city councillor in Toronto, which is where we reached him.

[music: electronica]

Hazel McCallion Funeral

TS: Today, the people of Mississauga said their final goodbyes to Hazel McCallion. The former mayor's funeral was attended by her family and a lot of city residents and dignitaries showed up to honour the politician known as Hurricane Hazel as well. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, Former Prime Minister Jean Chretien, Ontario Premier Doug Ford, and a number of Olympic hockey stars. Here is part of Premier Ford's tribute to his friend and political mentor.

SOUNDCLIP

DOUG FORD: The week before she passed, I paid Hazel a visit. At one point during our conversation, her face lit up. She turned and pulled out one of her signature miniature race cars, one that I know a few of us here have received. In it was an equally miniature Hazel. Her plastic head bobbing alongside the excitement. She grabbed the marker and wrote on the bottom, to my favourite premier. Love, Hazel. [clapping] That little red race car embodies the best of Hazel. Always on the move, never slowing down. Not even in her later years. Excited about the promise of what came next. Always leading with love. Mississauga is a better city, Ontario is a better province and Canada is a better country because of the amazing life of Hazel McCallion [clapping]. Until the very end, she never lost what made Hazel great, her signature wit, her generosity. She was relentless, funny, kind and giving. In those final moments, I did what any friend would. [pause] I took her hand and offered her as much comfort as I could. I told her, I love you, Hazel. Those words will stay with me until my last moment. I love you, Hazel. Forever. Rest easy, my friend. And may God bless your soul. And may God bless the greatest mayor this country has ever seen. Thank you. [clapping]

TS: Ontario Premier Doug Ford, speaking today at the funeral of former Mississauga Mayor Hazel McCallion.

[music: glassy guitar and drums]

Ohio Derailment: Union Member

Guest: Jared Cassidy

TS: If you listened to As It Happens last night, you heard Maura Todd describe what it was like to flee her home in East Palestine, Ohio after a train carrying hazardous material derailed and exploded just a mile away from where she lived. The photos are terrifying. Plumes of black smoke looming over the quiet residential streets. But what you may not have heard is that railway unions in the region had been warning of a disaster like this for years. They say that railroad companies have cut staffing, training and safety regulations to the point that an incident like this was not unexpected. Jared Cassidy is the chief of safety with the Sheet Metal, Air, Rail and Transportation Union. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

NK: Jared, the workers that your union represents say this incident did not surprise them. Why?

JARED CASSIODY: Because it's been a trend in the railroad industry now for the last five or six years under the business model of precision-scheduled railroading that the railroad carriers are cutting every corner possible to cut their way to profits. And what I mean by that is they're reducing the levels of workforce employees. They are mothballing or storing, putting locomotives into storage. They are eliminating crafts from terminals. The craft particularly known as carbon, and they are expediting or cutting corners altogether when it comes to inspections or the type of inspections that are being done. Unfortunately, the quality of inspection that we're seeing in the industry now is of a far less quality than what we used to see prior to the implementation of precision-scheduled railroading.

NK: What would the working conditions have been like leading up to this incident? I know some of the workers that your union represents were involved in the incident.

JC: Sure. So, the conditions are very rushed. It's a lot of pressure. Unfortunately, because of the cuts to the workforce, the folks that are left are being tasked with more. And what I mean by that is they're being asked to work more frequently and longer hours. Unfortunately, one of the… one of the fallout items of precision-schedule railroading is that the length of trains is growing exponentially. What typically used to be about a 6,000-foot average train is now probably over 8,000 or 9000 feet. It is not uncommon to get a train that's over three miles long. And the effect that has is that it slows the system. It means that the people are on duty longer. The ability to take time off when needed is almost an impossibility. So, they're feeling the effects of that. But then, on top of it all, the railroads have cut themselves so thin that they feel pressure from outside sources to… to move freight. And, unfortunately, the primary function of PSR is what I'm going to call precision-scheduled railroading now, the primary function of PSR is moving cars rather than providing a quality service to the customers. And so, what happens is the managers on any particular railroad are pressuring the crew members to constantly move their freight at any cost. And if there's something that is slowing them down, they're being told to just skip it, not do it, to run it. We've got to get the freight moving. And then what you're seeing is a higher and intensified level of harassment and intimidation. And you're seeing discipline at levels that we have never seen before.

NK: What I'm taking from what you're saying is that… that the push for efficiency is trumping safety in your view?

JC: Yes, absolutely. The push for efficiency, the push for profits, is trumping safety altogether.

NK: What do you believe caused this to happen, this disaster?

JC: So, I can't really speak to the actual cause directly. We are part of the investigation with the NTSB, but I have seen the footage that's been made public. I am aware that there is one particular car on that train with an actual on fire, and I think that's as good a place as any to start when you look at the fundamental cause. However, there are so many more contributing factors to the cause of derailment just beyond that car that speaks to the… the lack of inspections being done, the rushed inspections that are being pushed out the door. All of that is contributing, in my opinion, to what you're seeing happen in East Palestine, Ohio.

NK: So, this could have been prevented in your view?

JC: Absolutely.

NK: Norfolk Southern, the operator, as we've talked about, has talked about its breaking technology in the past, saying there isn't a need for more regulation. What's your response to that?

JC: There absolutely is need for more regulation across the scale or across the scope of the industry. In fact, that's the one of the greatest things that is harming or hampering the railroad industry now is the lack of oversight, the lack of transparency and the lack of accountability. We need more to make sure that the railroads are complying with fundamental operational practices that make good sense and are safe for the citizens of America. But also that are measurable and enforceable so that we can hold the railroads to a standard that they may otherwise not want to meet, especially when there's outside pressures like Wall Street or profitability that may encourage them to do otherwise.

NK: You've said that… that you want long-term legislation, but emergency legislation before that long-term legislation. What would that… what would that do? What would that entail?

JC: Long-term legislation, we need to have confidential reporting from the employees in the railroad industry. Currently, the way the FRA works, the railroads are required to self-report and self-police. There's really no one out there making sure that they're doing the right things when an accident or an incident occurs. If a minor derailment happens or some kind of other adverse situation, there's really no one that knows that it happened other than the railroad. And under our system, you know, no one holds them accountable unless they tell on themselves. And that's not really a good way to run a transparent operation. And what that would do would give us the ability to see what's actually being reported from the railroads. It would also give us the ability to see what the FRA is doing as far as enforcement, and it would give us the ability to hold them accountable. And then, the other side of that benefit is we would be able to see the data and the trends in the industry that would indicate to us if a bigger accident is coming. Typically in railroading, what you see before you get to the big accident, like in East Palestine, is a series of smaller or getting gradually greater types of accidents. And Norfolk Southern has seen their share of derailments and accidents here recently. And all of those are indicators that lead up to a big accident like this. And if we had a confidential reporting system wherein the employees are obligated to report, we would be able to identify those trends and those accidents much sooner and be able to… to adjust accordingly so that we could prevent the big one from happening.

NK: Jared, thank you very much for your time.

JC: Thank you.

TS: Jared Cassidy is the chief of safety with the Sheet Metal, Air, Rail and Transportation Union. We reached him in Washington, D.C.

[music: bright piano]

Python Eats Tracked Possum

TS: If you were assembling a crack team of brilliant animals, you would not recruit possums. They are not stealthy, they are not smart, they are not pretty. Don't worry: if there's one there with you, it won't be offended: it has already forgotten I'm talking about it. But just because they're not the brightest doesn't mean possums aren't effective as undercover agents. Like, deep undercover. Last year, a team monitoring the movements of possums in Key Largo, Florida noted that one of the possums they were tracking had died. They could tell because its tracking collar sent out what's called a "mortality signal", which goes off when a creature completely stops moving. It was definitely dead. So, it was definitely weird when -- just a few hours later -- the collar suddenly started to move once again. It was not a zombie. Although, if you told me all possums were zombies, based on their behaviour and appearance, I would believe you. No, this possum had been eaten by a snake. An invasive python -- the scourge of Florida. It was a tragic end, but in death, the possum had become a mole. Its tracking device led researchers to a network of caves -- where they collared the suspect with the collar inside it: a 12-foot female python, which they euthanized. That snake could have had hundreds of offspring -- if not for that possum. Which behaved the way any great secret agent behaves: it infiltrated the enemy. And then subverted it from within.

[music: hip-hop beat]

Part 3: N.L. Child Protection,

N.L. Child Protection

Guests: Nathan Penashue, Caitlin Urquhart

TS: In July of 2017, Newfoundland and Labrador's then-Premier Dwight Ball, signed a memorandum of understanding with leaders of the Innu Nation. It was agreed that an inquiry would be held into the treatment of Innu children in the province's child protection system. The document said that every effort would be made to start that inquiry by the end of September 2017. This week, more than five years later, formal hearings finally began. The inquiry says it will also investigate the deaths of specific Innu children, youth or young adults who had experience in care or custody. Nathan Penashue is a community liaison for the inquiry, and Caitlyn Urquhart is one of the lawyers for the inquiry. We reached them both in Sheshatshiu, Labrador.

NK: Nathan, I'll start with you, and I'm wondering what it's been like to be in the hearing room as this process finally got underway?

NATHAN PENASHUE: This is the second day of the formal hearings. You know, it kind of got almost emotional today, you know, listening to some of the elders that were testifying and were sworn in there this afternoon. Yesterday, we had an opening ceremony. We had an elder doing a ceremonial opening of the inquiry. To get to this point where we are today on the second day of the formal hearings, it's a history, you know, and a milestone for the for both communities of Sheshatshiu and Natuashish. You know, it's getting to the point where emotions are coming for both communities or the hurt, and the pain is, you know, coming up again. So, I feel the people, I feel the families. You know, I hear their voices and their stories and experiences, you know, that they are trying to tell to the world, you know, to the province.

NK: It's… you know, you're the community liaison, as we've said, for… for the inquiry. You have your own experiences with the foster care system. So, it's a double burden in a way, right? Your personal… the personal weight on your shoulders, and then trying to make sure that the people who are participating and testifying have the support they need. How are you managing all that?

NP: So, the last couple of months, I was hired on November 1st, but I… we started doing… I started working with, you know, closely with Brenda Reynolds, the healing services coordinator. So, we came… we planned to come into both communities to train some of the staff and get them ready before the actual hearing starts. You know, when we… when we did that. You know, when we came into both communities, I started to get emotional when we first started the training with staff. It was a trigger. You know, when I… when the day was done, the first day of the training with the staff, I got home, and I cried. It took me back to the place where I felt like [pause] I don't know. Words can't describe, you know, how I felt that day. It's hard. It's tiring sometimes. But I have support around me. I have family that give me support. I have friends that come up to me and talk to me. I have co-workers, you know, that I can lean on, too.

NK: That's important. That's really important.

NP: Yes.

NK: Thank you so much for… for being so open about your emotions and what your… what you have to weigh and deal with going through this as well. I think that in itself can help people, hearing you talk… talk about that. So, I appreciate it, Nathan. Caitlin, I wanted to ask you, you know, as someone coming into this process, as an outsider of sorts, you know, what… what will your role be? What is your role in this process?

CAITLIN URQUHART: Yeah, I mean, a big part of our role is… is to listen and to learn from Innu like Nathan, who are willing to come forward and who are strong enough and in a place where they can come forward and be vulnerable. My role as commission co-counsel is to help ensure that the commissioners have all the information that they need in order to write their report and make recommendations for the path forward here.

NK: What are some of the biggest, most pressing questions that you feel it's important to answer, Caitlin, at the end of this process?

CU: You know, the question is, really, what do Innu see as the future of child welfare in their community? We know that they are going to take over child welfare in the future and that they want this opportunity to share their experiences. It's really what do… what do you Innu want? What do Innu think will work best for their community, for their families and children? And helping to draw that information out so that the commissioners can sort of commit that to writing and put those recommendations forward.

NK: And Nathan, for you, you know, having had the experiences you've had and the… and the role you have now, what difference would it make in children's lives to have this system in the care of Innu.

NP: Well, having the children back into our care, I think, it makes a big difference. I was one of the lucky ones that was raised back in the community of Sheshatshiu while I was in foster care. So, I grew up with a family that were actually trying to raise me as best to their ability. To show me how to hunt, how to live. And one of my foster parents, they were Innu. She’s an Innu woman from Sheshatshiu. She grew… she grew up here all her life, so. And my other foster father, he was a Newfoundlander. So, I think it's… it makes a big difference to have the children back to the community so we could still practice our traditional ways. We can speak our language. We can just learn the Innu way of life.

NK: And so, Nathan, at the end of this… this process and the inquiry, what would success look like for you?

NP: I would like to see and love if the province could really listen to the Innu and give them what they want. If the commissioners, you know, bring in the recommendations from both communities and their statements to the province, to the system, give them what they want.

NK: Nathan, Caitlin, I thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. Please take care.

BOTH: Thank you.

TS: Nathan Penashue is a community liaison for the inquiry into the treatment, experiences and outcomes of Innu in the child protection system. He's also an Innu Nation board member. And Caitlin Urquhart is one of the lawyers for the inquiry. We reached them in Sheshatshiu, Newfoundland and Labrador.

[music: tense instrumental]

Cyclone Gabrielle

Today, the New Zealand government declared a national state of emergency. Cyclone Gabrielle has battered the northern part of the country. Officials say it's the most severe weather event in years, leaving about 250,000 people without power and forcing thousands more to evacuate their homes. Some of whom had to swim to safety. Or, like Kevin McCormack, climbed onto their rooftops to avoid the rising water. Here he is describing the scene, moments before a rescue boat arrived to help him and his wife.

SOUNDCLIP

KEVIN MCCORMACK: We’d been trapped all day. Yeah, since this morning.

LISA OWENS: So, what time… what time did you get up there?

KM: Oh, we would have got on the roof about 10, 11.

LO: Goodness me. And so, right now, can you see what the rescuers are doing?

KM: Yeah, they're just taking my wife and our neighbours down the road in the jet boat. And they'll be coming back for us. And there's two police officers here with us.

LO: And a lot of people in a similar situation to you, Kevin, do you think?

KM: Absolutely. I can see people on their roofs from here. There's a big RV complex about 600 metres away from me and there's probably 20 workers out on the roof, that just climbed on the roof a little while ago. The water came out really quickly in the last 2 hours. It's just really, really come up. It’s come up probably a metre-and-a-half, two metres.

LO: How nervous we are getting about the situation, Kevin, with the water rising?

KM: Yeah, yeah, we weren't real happy about it. We're wet, it's raining and, yeah, we can see the helicopters lurking, but they look like they're working at a climb. I think they've got their hands full. There’s an awful lot of people out there they haven't got to yet. Our telecommunication went out for us completely, other than we can text and the odd phone call. And so, we didn't really know what was going on, but we knew we were certainly in bad shape with the water around. The water is never up like this in the area. It’s never happened before.

TS: That was Kevin McCormick on his rooftop, waiting for rescue, speaking to Lisa Owen on Radio New Zealand's Checkpoint.

[music: electronica]

Women’s National Soccer Team Tournament

TS: Later this week, the Canadian Women's National Soccer team will play USA in the SheBelieves Cup in Florida. But as Captain Christine Sinclair has said, the women will be playing the tournament in protest. Last week, the team announced a job action following cuts to their program, but that action didn't last long. They say Canada Soccer threatened them with legal action if they didn't play. Canada Soccer says it was not, quote, prepared to jeopardize the SheBelieves Cup tournament, the preparation it would afford the women's national team for the upcoming World Cup, nor the experience it would afford countless fans who had undoubtedly travelled to Orlando to see their Olympic heroes, unquote. This morning, former national team player Carrie Serwetnyk spoke to the CBC about the controversy, and expressed her support for the women's team.

SOUNDCLIP

CARRIE SERWETNYK: To me, it sends a signal to every girl, every woman, that no matter how hard you try, how much you accomplish, you're just not important enough. You're not valued. And, you know, here's people chasing after their dreams to become the best in Canada and the world, and they're not being supported by the association. So, it's… it really is pathetic. It's the same old story. The men have had similar issues. And it seems like we just need to blow up the CSA like they've done with Hockey Canada and do something to support our national team athletes.

STEPHEN QUINN: Well, this is my question. I mean, how can Canada Soccer be at such odds with, you know, the entire women's national team?

CS: It's… it's… it's really ridiculous. I mean, I… I look at, you know, Christine Sinclair. She's just been such an incredible athlete in our country. And she's always graceful with her words. I, you know, remember reading her book, Playing the Long Game. And, you know, she… she's kind about how she talks about the CSA because she's just… she's careful with her words. And this time, it just seems they… like, she just took off her gloves and said, forget it. Like, they're just done with all the same issues that have happened really for decades. I mean, for me, as a player, a long time ago, you know, I spoke recently with our captain at the time, and she had a good career and she said, you know, I really feel like we were robbed during our time period. You know, with funding and a very abusive coach. And so, like, over time, you just think, oh, they're doing so well, like they're going to their seventh World Cup. They've won three Olympic medals, like they must have it made, right?

SQ: Yeah.

CS: And to hear they haven’t even been paid for 2022. Like, and you want to prepare for the World Cup. Like, all the teams around the world are just getting better and better and better.

SQ: Um-hmm.

CS: And, you know, they can’t even have a home game. So, imagine having to cut some of the players who are going to go to the camps, right? Because they can't afford it. And some coaches. So, it's just really terrible. And… and so, like, something bigger has to happen from the government for something to change because it's a never-ending cycle.

TS: That was Carrie Serwetnyk, a former player for the Canadian Women's National Soccer team, speaking with the CBC's Stephen Quinn this morning. Canada Soccer says it has, quote, heard the women's national team and has committed to a path to addressing each of the demands made by the players. But Canada Soccer knows that is not enough. There is still work to do, unquote.

[music: resonant piano]

FOA: Steinbeck Letter

TS: John Steinbeck was not big on empty sentiment. So, when the Nobel Prize winner for literature wrote down some advice for his son on the subject of love, you won't be surprised to hear that he skipped anything about the roses, chocolates and saccharin verses. In 1958, Thomas Steinbeck was 14 years old, and he had just fallen in love for the first time. So his father wrote him a short letter. In October, that letter went up for auction. And since today is Valentine's Day, we thought it would be a good time to revisit our interview with Bobby Livingston, executive VP at RR Auction House. Here's an encore presentation of Nil's conversation with Mr. Livingston. And after that, we'll have an update for you.

SOUNDCLIP

NK: Bobby, I was just looking at the letter online, and it's so remarkable, but I'm wondering what it's like to be so close to it? To hold it in your hands and read what he had to say to his son?

BOBBY LIVINGSTON: Well, no, it is an incredible letter that, you know, when I was 14, and in love, I wish I would have gotten something like this [chuckling] because, you know, it's so clearly written and so thoughtfully written by Steinbeck. It's… it's… it's amazing to actually hold the original handwritten version of this very, very famous letter.

NK: I have some favourite passages, but could you read one or two that you like to us?

BL: First off, Tom is 14 years old and he's telling his father, you know, I'm in love. And, you know, I can imagine what my father would have said. [NK chuckles] But what Steinbeck says is, Look, if you're in love, that's a good thing. That's about the best thing that can happen to anyone. And don't let anyone make it small or light to you.

NK: Yeah.

BL: And, you know, that's going to a 14-year-old. And I, I think one of the other things I really like, knowing is Steinbeck is insightful enough to say to his son, Look, I don't think you're asking me what you feel. You know better than anyone. What you wanted me to help you with is what to do about it.

NK: Yeah.

BL: And that I can tell you glory in it… [chuckle] glory in it for one thing, and be very glad and grateful for it. The object of love is the best and most beautiful. Try to live up to it. He's relating to his son and in such a Steinbeck way. In such a clear way. It's just marvellous to me.

NK: One of the passages that I really love, he writes, quote, Girls have a way of knowing or feeling what you feel, but they usually like to hear it also. It sometimes happens that what you feel is not returned for one reason or another, but that does not make your feeling less valuable and good. You know, he's saying his feelings are valid. It's --

BL: Right. Absolutely.

NK: It's okay to get your heart broken. It's worth it, right?

BL: Right. It's… you know, it's… it's… it's just a fabulous thing to hear that, you know, you're going to get your heart broken, but it's okay, you know? And it's coming, right. [both chuckle] So, that is a great, great passage.

NK: Just take us back to how it came into your hands so you could put it up for auction?

BL: Our auction is known for selling literary handwritten letters like this, and we've been doing it for 40 years. So this is the natural home for a handwritten draft like this from Steinbeck. It comes from a private collector. And, you know, it fits right into this auction.

NK: What do you think it says about how he feels not just about his son but about love in general?

BL: I think the clarity. You know this is 1958, so he's been writing, and he's probably a perfect writer, but not a perfect father. But the clarity that he's able to put down on paper and, you know, he was a good, good man. I think this show shows a lot of who Steinbeck really was. You know, apart from the novelist and his characters, this is the real Steinbeck.

NK: This was… the contents of this letter was published by Penguin in the late eighties, I believe. And obviously, people can read the contents online. But why do you think someone would want to own the original?

BL: This is a piece of paper that Steinbeck put his hand on and put his pen to, [laughing] and probably wrote one of the most famous letters on love that ever is, right? This is his original. The one published in the books is… you know, is the transmitted one, typed. This is, you know, the original thought process. And he took his time writing it, and that's why someone would want it.

NK: There's so much… there's been a lot of, as you know, of legal wrangling and dispute over Steinbeck's estate. His works are very closely guarded. What's your sense of how his surviving family members might feel about a letter so… so personal and the handwritten copy of it being sold at auction?

BL: Over the years and over the decades, many letters and… you know, Steinbeck wrote lots of letters and produced lots of material that's in the public’s hands. And this is one of those, you know, great things that he's… he's still out there, and people still care about Steinbeck. And I think that should make the family proud.

NK: Do you think it might… it might get as much attention as, you know, drafts or first editions of his literary works?

BL: You know what? As opposed to signed first editions, very rare books that go for lots and lots of money, you know, this is one of a kind. This is the original draft. And so, you never know what something like this might sell for. But it's certainly of interest. It'd be like having an original manuscript of “Mice and Men” or, you know, one page from “East of Eden”. You know this… but this… this letter is so famous. Like I said, I really don't know what it's going to sell for, but we wouldn't be surprised if it achieves a price similar to a first edition.

NK: For example?

BL: I apologize. I wish I could spit one out with a price, but I just don't have it.

NK: It's best… best to leave it up to the bidders.

BL: Oh, as far as you know… we expect… we expect… we have an estimate on this letter to sell for around $15,000, and I wouldn't be surprised if it surpasses that.

NK: Wow! It is a beautiful thing. And love is grand, right?

BL: Love is… love is grand. And I think the one last line, right, that I want to make sure it's like, what does he say at the very end?

NK: If it is right, it happens. The main thing is not to hurry. Nothing good gets away.

BL: Nothing good gets away. No. So hopefully --

NK: Agh, I'm not going to cry. [chuckling]

BL: All right. Don't cry.

NK Oh. Well, Bobby, thanks so much for coming on the program. Really appreciate it.

BL: And I'm grateful. Thank you for having me on.

NK: Take care.

TS: From last October, that was Bobby Livingston of RR Auction House, talking about the auction of a letter John Steinbeck wrote to his 14-year-old son on the subject of love. And the letter did indeed fetch a hefty sum. It sold for just over $43,000 Canadian.

[music: horns!!!!]

Tree Communication Network

TSIf you've been keeping up with HBO's latest hit series The Last of Us, and even if you haven't, you may have heard of a phenomenon where plant species can communicate with each other through fungal networks. If all your information comes from The Last of Us, though, you should know that plants don't communicate in order to tear out the throats of humans. Not necessarily, anyway. The idea that trees can speak to each other through these networks became so ubiquitous it even got its own name, “the Wood Wide Web”. But it turns out that theory isn't rooted in much evidence. One scientist has gone out of her way to set the record straight. Justine Karst is an associate professor in the University of Alberta's Faculty of Agricultural Life and Environmental Sciences.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTINE KARST: It started, I guess, a couple of years ago. I was hearing these extraordinary claims about what was happening in forests through these fungal networks. So, we did a literature search and we focused on field studies. And so, we investigated three claims that we thought were kind of the most popular that was popping out over and over again, that these mycorrhizal networks were widespread in forests. And what we found is, I think most scientists, we would all agree that it is possible that… and it's very likely that trees are connected belowground through these fungal links. But we really don't have a handle on how long those links last. We don't have a good idea of who is connected to who. And most importantly, we don't have a good idea of what the actual functioning is and what it means for trees. And then the second claim we looked at, this idea that resources are transferred and that seedlings they are… they benefit from this resource transfer. And again, when we looked into the studies, we found that there is actually no conclusive evidence that resources are transferred. And then the final claim that we investigated was this idea that big old trees, they send alarm calls to their seedlings and they can recognize their seedlings through these mycorrhizal networks. And… and we actually couldn't find a single peer-reviewed, published study in forests that even tested this claim. As we're doing this, I honestly just feel like I'm killing Christmas for everyone, every day. Forests are still this really interesting, complex place. Even… even if the trees aren't talking to one another.

TS: That was Justine Karst, an associate professor in the University of Alberta's Faculty of Agricultural Life and Environmental Sciences, speaking to the Calgary Eyeopener this morning.

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February 14, 2023 Episode Transcript

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