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The AIH transcript for February 1, 2023

NIL KÖKSAL: Hello, I'm Nil Köksal.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is "As It Happens."

[music: theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

NK: His life had meaning, may his death mean something, too. As mourners gather for the funeral of Tyree Nichols, a member of Memphis city council tells us he hopes the young man's cruel end can help bring an end to police brutality.

CH: Docu-drama. Another day, another search for classified documents. So, we'll ask a White House correspondent whether Joe Biden or Donald Trump left any crucial papers where they were supposed to leave them.

NK: Waiting for takeoff. A shortage of pilots is contributing to airport chaos across the country. We'll find out what exactly is going on -- in plane language.

CH: Bordering on offensive. To a Coldplay fan in Vancouver, the injury is that local tickets are too expensive for her -- and the insult is that they're twice as expensive as they are in Seattle.

NK: Horrible things come in small packages. But even though it's the size of a pea, Australian officials were able to find an enormously radioactive capsule. And let's hope we can Geiger count on it never happening again.

CH: And… king size, I presume. When Richard Martin was a kid, his mum brought home an elaborate old bed that she'd bought for £100. He'll tell us how he discovered it wasn't just fit for a king. It was built for a king.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio that advises you to always look before you sleep.

[music: theme]

Part 1: Tyre Nichols Funeral, Pilot Shortage, Westminster Bed

Tyree Nichols Funeral

Guest: JB Smiley Jr.

CH: He was a son, a father, a brother, and friend. Gone too soon -- denied his right to see the sunset another day. That's how the Reverend J. Lawrence Turner put it today, at the funeral of Tyre Nichols in Memphis. Mourners filled a church in the Tennessee city to grieve and celebrate the 29-year-old Black man who died after he was stopped and brutally beaten by police. There were dignitaries among the hundreds in attendance, including the Reverend Al Sharpton, who delivered a eulogy, and Vice President Kamala Harris. And Tyre Nichols's sister, Keyana Dixon, also spoke.

SOUNDCLIP

KEYANA DIXON: You know, being the oldest of three boys, I had to watch my brothers, take them places that I probably didn't want to take them. Watched them at times when I didn't want to watch them. Well, with Ty, I didn't mind. He never wanted anything but to watch cartoons and a big bowl of cereal, [chuckle] so it was pretty easy to watch him. On the night of January 7th, my brother was robbed of his life, his passions and his talents, but not his light. When my mother called me, [deep breath] and said my baby brother was gone, I lost my faith. I cried. I screamed at God, asking how could he let this happen. I see the world showing him love and fighting for his justice. But I’ll want is my baby brother back.

CH: That was Keyana Dixon, speaking today at the funeral for her brother Tyre Nichols. JB Smiley Jr. is the vice chairman of the Memphis city council. We reached him in Memphis.

NK: Councilmember Smiley, what was it like for you to be in that room today?

JB SMILEY JR.: This is a sense of… a small sense of peace, but you can sense from, you know, everyone in the room there was an urgency in the room as well to see some type of justice. And justice as it relates to what it looks like for police reform to be passed in the city of Memphis.

NK: I wanted to ask you about that because one of the many moving aspects of today's ceremony was that family members of George Floyd, Eric Garner and Breonna Taylor were also in attendance, to stop this list… this list of names from getting longer. What would justice look like for… for Tyre Nichols’ family? Are… are the… the things we've seen from the Memphis Police Department so far, are they enough?

JSJ: No. I think you have to take it a step further. There are several individuals who showed up to the scene who are yet to be relieved of duty, yet to be fired, yet to be charged. And ultimately, when this process plays out, convicted. But in addition to convictions, I think the Memphis city council, our body, has a… an opportunity here to deliver our own set of justice, which is passing comprehensive legislation that prevent rogue units like the “Scorpion” unit from going into communities and terrorizing people going forward.

NK: We heard the Vice President Kamala Harris as well, demanding Congress pass the George Floyd Policing Act. What would that change?

JSJ: Well, I think it changes the way that policing has been seen for many generations. At least as long as I've been living, law enforcers… law enforcement officers have been moving around in a cloak of qualified immunity that prevents them from being prosecuted in a certain manner. Removing qualified immunity allows civil suits to proceed against them, allows criminal suits to proceed against them in the individual capacity. And I think that changes things forever, especially when you think about when officers… how officers move. They always can fall back on qualified immunity. If you take that away from them, I think you're talking about much more cautious officers, much more respect for officers, especially those individuals who are going into communities acting in bad faith.

NK: We heard so many beautiful stories about the kind of young man Tyre Nichols was. Just incredibly moving, including what our listeners just heard from Keyana Dixon. I wonder what moments, which of those stories will stay with you?

JSJ: I think the story actually it was told by, I think, Bishop Brandon Porter when he talked about how Mr. Nichols was, you know, in the middle of a fight, a battle that he did not know he was daring to go in. He actually went to take pictures, take pictures right before he was heading to see his mom. And he never made it. I think, you know, just trying to… as a self-proclaimed mama's boy myself, you know, always going to visit my mother, especially during these times, her more seasoned years, just not being able to make it. You know, I can imagine, you know, the pain that mom would go through. It’s tough. It's tough as a young man myself.

NK: What has she said to you, your mother, as all of this has unfolded?

JSJ: So, my mom, I don't think her words have changed ever since, you know, I've been an adult was be careful and call me when you get home. And now, I think those words mean a little bit more now because, you know, you can see things that may not be in your community, but this was our community. This was our police department. And know that our police operate with reckless disregard for human life. It makes me pay particular attention to those words of my mother. I would just do everything… do everything I can to get home safely.

NK: Yeah, what do you say to her? What have you been saying in the last several weeks?

JSJ: Making sure that I actually check-in. Because I understand… I can't really understand it as a mother, but I do want her to be at peace. So, I'm checking in regularly, more than I ever have in my life, because I know that when she sees Mr. Nichols, she’s seeing her son. So, I just call her repeatedly, let her know I'm okay, let her know I'm taking care of myself. And I'm sure that every young man in the city of Memphis is doing the same thing because we all have mothers, mothers who care deeply for us and love us.

NK: And… and you're… you're not much older than… than Tyre Nichols, who… he was just shy of 30, right?

You're 36 years old.

JSJ Absolutely. Absolutely, yeah.

NK: Just what are… what are you and other young Black men… you know, the conversations… this has always been a conversation, unfortunately, and something that… that Black parents have to have that conversation with their sons. But… but now, you know, given… given the age range and just how this all unfolded.

JSJ: Absolutely. The conversation in our community has always been, you know, being told to comply. And why do we have to, you know, move a certain way? Why do we have to move differently than our white counterparts? Now, I guess the conversation has been changing, too. No matter what we do, it’s not enough. And we were wondering why members of the police force, members of the blue community, so to speak, don't see us as human. Why do they treat us this way? And why do they act as if they are, you know, untouchable? Do not have to succumb or submit to the laws of our land. So, you know, I understand that sense of uneasiness and almost feeling like giving up. But, you know, I always have to be hopeful that there can be a future where everyone understands and know they will make it home. And a traffic stop will not become a fatal encounter.

NK: Councilmember Smiley, thank you very much for your time.

JSJ: Thank you.

CH: That was Memphis City Councilman JB Smiley Jr.

[music: resonant and slow piano]

Pilot Shortage

Guest: Dave Boston

CH: If you've had to fly anywhere over the past few months, you might have experienced the kind of airport chaos that makes you seriously consider sticking to bus travel in the future. There is -- for good reason -- a general shortage of patience among passengers these days. And that may get worse in the future -- because there's also a general shortage of pilots. Last year, just 238 new pilot licenses were issued in Canada. And that is down from over a thousand in pre-pandemic years. Now, experts in the industry are addressing what needs to happen to get those numbers back up. Dave Boston is a pilot, and the founder and CEO of Pilot Career Centre. We reached him in Querétaro, Mexico.

NK: Dave, how would you describe what's happening with pilots? The number of pilots we have in this country right now.

DAVE BOSTON: There's an extreme shortage with what's come about since the COVID pandemic travel restrictions have been reduced.

NK: So, the pandemic is a big factor, obviously. But what else is contributing?

DB: Many things. We have more airlines than we've ever had in Canada. The ultra-low-cost model of airlines, which is really popular in Europe and Asia for the last 15 years, that's new, and that requires a whole bunch of new pilots. Also, corporate aviation and private aviation amongst the wealthy, the ultra-wealthy, has really grown significantly because these people did not want to be in airport terminals anymore. So, they've ordered airplanes, they've taken shares in airplanes, which requires more pilots. And Air Canada has had for years a number of retirements coming at this time of… of their history. And they're expanding, so they need, you know, close to a thousand pilots.

NK: You know, I want… a couple of things I want to get at from… from what you just said there. When we talk about big airlines such as Air Canada. You know, and I was reading that a lot of these issues predate the pandemic as well. This has been coming… coming for a while. So, why don't you think airlines were starting to prepare for this long ago?

DB: Well, the industry… you know, the Canadian aviation industry is relatively small compared to other places. And it… it worked for years, let's say 25 years. It worked where pilots were scattered around up north, you know, getting their experience. And then they would slowly, you know, come into the airlines. But since COVID, you have to remember, you know, for two years, no one in Canada was flying. And then, now, everyone wants to fly, naturally. So, the demand is there. And then ultra-low-cost companies come in. They offer affordable travel, you know, so anyone can fly across the country. So, we've been kind of caught out. And it's not… it's not unique to Canada. It's… the U.S. is probably nine months to a year ahead of us. And they're really competing for pilots and panicking for pilots and offering huge sign-on bonuses for pilots to join their airlines.

NK: How long do you think it will take to get the number of pilots that we need in this country?

DB: I think this situation is going to get worse before it gets better, coming into the summer, spring and summer. And it's… it's not something that fixes itself overnight. There's a real… there's other problems in this industry where pay to start as a pilot countrywide is relatively low or pretty low. And the cost of training is really high. So, pilots that get in often have to take huge loans. It's much more than a university degree. Probably over a two-year period, about $110,000 to $120,000.

NK: Wow.

DB: Then, you're looking at a salary in the neighbourhood of $40,000 to $50,000 to start pretty much anywhere, even at the airlines.

NK: So, it takes a good amount of time to pay that off, I would imagine?

DB: A massive amount of time. And the people that do the research and look at the numbers, they likely don't enter the industry even if they really want to. And there's another weird thing that's going on right now. The cost of living in the country is really high. Like, much higher than it used to be, especially in the big urban centres where the biggest airports are, which means where the most pilot jobs are, are extremely expensive even to rent a basement suite. So, there's loads of pilots across the country living in, you know, pilot basement suites with four others and two bunk beds. And, you know, when people see that from on the outside, you know, they may go into I.T. or something different.

NK: It really turns the image of… of the sort of glamorous and really high-profile and coveted job of… of being a pilot, you know, for… for women and men who were considering this field. I think a lot of them have that glamorous vision of it. And what you're saying, I think, is going to come as a surprise to a lot of people. People… you know, that the cost, but the cost-benefit as well.

DB: Yes, definitely. It's… it's a really unique time, and it's a… it's a terrible time. The job itself, you know, once you get through those years, it's fantastic. And there's tons of opportunities right now. Like, the conversation we're having when we're talking to pilots right now is almost the opposite because there's so many opportunities for pilots who have some experience up north or have some experience at airlines. They're all, you know, looking at many opportunities to reach their dreams. But at the start, and to get initially into it, it's really tough. And what's interesting is everyone focuses on the airlines, but the… this country is massive and diverse, and there's a lot of essential service aviation up north and in remote communities that need, you know, air ambulance services and food shipments and cargo shipments. And they're really hurting because so many of those pilots that are there are being interviewed or being called by the airlines. And, you know, it's all happening at the same time across the country. So, there's no one there with the experience level they want to replace them.

NK: So, if you had your way and, you know, the powers that be were listening to you, what needs to happen tomorrow?

DB: I think definitely remuneration, affordability, you know, to attract pilots to the industry and potentially doing that through cadet programs where, you know, there might be some really intelligent kids, you know, coming through high schools these days who may not have all the financial backing, you know, but they would be perfect pilots and, you know, they have the right stuff, you know, to make it possible for them.

NK: Dave, I really appreciate your time. Thank you.

DB: Thank you. Nice to talk to you.

CH: Dave Boston is a pilot and the founder and CEO of Pilot Career Centre. We reached him in Querétaro, Mexico.

[music: hip-hop beat]

Mini-Update: Radioactive Capsule Found

NK: Richard, I'm wondering what you remember about that day all those years ago. You were just a child when your mother brought this home.

RICHARD MARTIN: Well, I was used to her bringing stuff home from auctions because she was an inveterate bringer home of things from auctions. But I have to say that none of us were expecting the great pile of heavily carved and gilded wood, and God knows what that… that she brought that day.

NK: Did all of you know that it was a bed when all the pieces came together?

RM: Yes, yes. We knew it was a bed, and we knew it was something special, but we had no idea what it was. And, in fact, didn't for years because my parents simply assembled it and slept in it. And I just thought, what an amazing thing this is.

NK: Simply assembled it. Was it really that easy, all those pieces?

RM: [laughing] No. No, my father was a very practical chap. And we sort of lived in a succession of rambling houses. And he did a lot of do-it-yourself… well, building, really. And so, he was used to assembling stuff that my mother brought from auction sales.

NK: He was a handy guy.

RM: He was a very handy man. In fact, in the house that we lived in at the time, which is in a village called Grafton Regis, he ran a factory in half the house. So, he was… he was very used to practical matters, put it that way.

NK: So, you gave us a hint of how ornate the pieces of this bed are. Can you give us a sense of just what it all looks like all put together?

RM: It's a very fancy thing. People are used to a four-poster bed. Well, this is a thing called a tester bed or tester. It's like a giant bed with an enormous bed head and bed tail. And then, it's got two big poles that go at the head end. And then, massive amounts of curtaining and swaging and ornate stuff. I guess originally, these beds were designed to keep you warm in very cold, draughty castles, but over the years, they became more and more ornate. I think people used to use their bedrooms and being in bed as a more public thing than we do.

NK: And I read that there were holes in the posts.

RM: Yes. Well, when I was a child, you know, you kind of think things, and you don't get out to thinking them. And in the gold finials at the end of the bed, there were like sort of the sort of things you get on castles made of stone. But these were carved oak and gilded, and they had these kind of holes. And I rather fondly imagined that this was a time in 1960 or something when everybody smoked. I rather assumed that that was where the king put his cigarette ends after he finished smoking. [NK chuckles] And funnily enough, I was talking to my brother, my younger brother, about this a couple of days ago when this sort of story came out. And he said, yes, that's what he thought as well. [NK laughs] So, it wasn't just me.

NK: Did you ever get to the bottom of what… what those holes were actually for?

RM: No. No, I have no idea. I don't know. Could have been for anything.

NK: So, it was very ornate and curious, as you said, the canopy. But, you know, certainly, a lot of beds today are very cheaply made. But this one seemed sturdy and then some.

RM: Well, it was… it was massive. And I think the thing was it was in the… as it was originally in the Palace of Westminster, you know, where the king stayed the night before his coronation. And… and it was just so big and ornate. And… and I think that there was a feeling that it didn't fit in the sort of post-war years when everything was getting simpler. And I think quite a lot of stuff sort of disappeared at that time, actually.

NK: Yeah --

RM: Officially disappeared.

NK: Yeah, that… that'll lead us to… to how this eventually ended up at that auction that your… that your mother was at.

RM: Yes. Yeah.

NK: But one of your brothers was born in that bed?

RM: Yes, he was. My youngest brother. Because I'm one of seven. I think he was always rather proud of that, to tell you the truth. I think he rather thought that he was the sort of chosen one, having been born in this bed.

NK: [chuckling] So, you talked about how it sort of fell out of vogue to have things that were so ornate.

RM: Yes.

NK: It was put by officials into storage. Then, it ends up, apparently. But how does it end up at an estate sale? You know, some of us forget what we've got in storage.

RM: Yeah, it's a two-part thing. It went into storage in 1940. And that was a deliberate, I think, clearing of the decks in the Palace of Westminster with the war on, the Second World War on. And it was like, get rid of all the old stuff. And we must use the offices. Use them for workers and offices and so on. And then, later, in the late fifties, then it was this time of… of newness and change. And that a lot of this old stuff, I think, it was genuinely thought no one would ever want it again, get rid of it. And we don't need all that fuddy-duddy, musty old stuff. And so, they got rid of it. And, you know, obviously, later on, regretted it.

NK: So did a… did a king or queen ever sleep in this bed?

RM: No, because this bed was a high Victorian. It was built in, you know, in English terms, relatively modern because it was made in about 1850-odd. And it was made when the Palace of Westminster was rebuilt. And they put this bed in ready for the king. But in actual fact, a king never slept in it because things changed. In fact, the last king to sleep in the Palace of Westminster, in the previous bed, was, in fact, George the Fourth, who was two kings before Queen Victoria.

NK: Would you like King Charles to sleep in it before his upcoming coronation?

RM: Well, I think… at the moment in England, we've got a lot of strikes on at the moment.

NK: Yes.

RM: There's a lot of disquiet. I think there is in a lot of parts of the world. And, you know, if there was a tube strike, maybe the King would think, oh, I might not get to Westminster Abbey for my coronation. So, maybe I should sleep in the Palace of Westminster. And now, because the bed has gone back there, he could go and sleep in it if he felt so inclined. It's his bed.

NK: When did your family finally learn of… you knew it was something special, but when did you learn about how… just how significant it was historically?

RM: Well, there's a guy called Clive Wainwright, who was keeper of Victorian furniture at the Victoria and Albert Museum, and he rather dedicated himself to finding some of the stuff that had disappeared, particularly Victorian furniture which had disappeared from the Palace of Westminster. And he got wind that my parents… or didn't know they're my parents, but he got wind that these people had this ornate bed in a mill, a woollen mill, which they rebuilt. We started this woollen mill that had been derelict for 20 years. And… and this bed was exhibited there to visitors. And he got wind of this, and he rang up, and he described the bed. And my mother said, yes, yes, that sounds like it. And he whizzed down the next day from London to Wales to look at it, and he was terribly excited. And Clive Wainwright was one of these guys who was incredibly passionate about everything he did. And sometimes people like that could be very boring. But he was so good and so nice that he carried everybody along with him. And so, everyone got terribly excited in Clive's projects. And this one was that the bed should go back to the Palace of Westminster.

NK: Yeah.

RM: And eventually, it did.

NK: And your parents, people have said they could have sold it, and they could have made lots of money.

RM: Well, they did actually get some money from the government, but they didn't get anything like what they could have done if it had been sold privately because it was something that would undoubtedly have sold… by that time, sold very well, indeed.

NK: What did your parents pay for it.

RM: Honestly, I really, really can't remember. It's not a secret, but I honestly can't remember. I meant to ask one of my sisters who would know. But I don't remember. But I think my parents genuinely thought it should go back.

NK: And how do you think they would feel, your mum in particular, since she found this at the auction that time? How would you feel about all the conversation going on about her big find?

RM: Oh God, she'd be absolutely made out with it. She'd turn to my father and say, Ron! Ron! I told you that bed was going to be good one day, didn't I? I told you. And he would have said, yes. Yes, Wendy. If we move house, I'll erect it again. Don't worry.

NK: Awe!

RM: And that was how they would have been. They would have… she would have been absolutely delighted that people cared about something that she'd seen value in, I guess.

NK: Oh. Well, I'm delighted we've had a chance to speak. Thank you so much.

RM: It's very nice to talk to you, too.

NK: Take care.

RM: Bye-bye.

CH: That was Richard Martin in the Cotswolds, England talking about the historic bed his mother bought at an estate sale decades ago.

NK: [chuckling] I grew up at auctions and garage sales, yard sales. Never found anything that great, though. One day, right?

CH: One day.

NK: One day. I'll let you know.

CH: Keep buying every bed that you see on that possibility.

NK: [laughing] It just might be the one.

[music: chillhop]

Part 2: Presidential Papers, Ticketmaster: Vancouver Coldplay Fan

Presidential Papers

Guest: Tyler Pager

CH: It's not every day that the FBI raids the home of the sitting president of the United States. But that was the scene at Joe Biden's vacation home in Rehoboth Beach, Delaware today. People from the Justice Department were there as part of their ongoing investigation into the classified documents that seem to keep turning up in President's Biden's wake. And, of course, this is all going on while the last president, Donald Trump, faces an investigation of his own for having hauled boxes full of classified documents to his Florida resort. Tyler Pager is a White House reporter with The Washington Post. And we reached him in Washington, D.C.

NK: Tyler, Mike Pence, Donald Trump, Joe Biden now, what does it signal to the country? What kind of impact does it have when a sitting U.S. president is having his home searched by government investigators?

TYLER PAGER: Yeah, look, I think in the past few months, we've seen so many different stories and conversations about the handling of classified documents. I think for many Americans, it's just sort of confusing and blends together as one big story. Obviously, there's a lot of differences between the cases that you just mentioned. But ultimately, I think what it's raising is questions about the process in which U.S. government officials keep and hold on to classified information. And so, I think a lot of the early focus was on Trump and his obstruction or potential obstruction of the retrieval of this information. And now, as Mike Pence and Joe Biden are ensnared in their own investigations, the attention has focussed more to the process than the people.

NK: Mm-hmm. And I want to get to the differences because they are significant in all of the cases in a moment. But when we talk about Joe Biden in particular, what have investigators found? What kind of documents? How significant are they?

TP: So, we don't know the exact details of the documents that have been retrieved. We know that multiple documents have been found at different locations. The first being the Penn Biden Center, which was a downtown Washington office the president, or the now president, used after he left the Obama White House in 2017. They found some classified documents there. We know that some of them were related to foreign countries, particularly in one example, Iran. But beyond that, we don't have a bunch of details. And then we also know that they found documents at his home in Wilmington, Delaware. In that tranche of documents, they found things both related to his time as vice president but also from his years as a U.S. senator.

NK: And so, the investigation that's been launched is not of the U.S. president, but of how this happened. Correct.

TP: Correct. Our understanding is that the president himself is not under investigation. It's how these documents ended up in places they were not supposed to be.

NK: So, when we get to the issue or look back to the issue of Donald Trump's examples, what you've learned about documents found at Mar a Lago, Donald Trump's estate there. Just tell us about the key differences.

TP: Yes, so some of the key differences there are that in the Biden case, as soon as the documents were found, the lawyers said they immediately called the National Archives and the Justice Department and self-reported and handed those documents over. In the Trump case, the National Archives sought the documents back and did not get them. And that's why we saw the FBI execute a search of the Mar-A-Lago property and bring back the documents themselves. We know that the FBI has searched the president's homes in Wilmington and Rehoboth, as well as the downtown Washington office that Biden occupied after leaving the White House. But in all cases, those searches worked on in conjunction and in cooperation with Biden's attorneys. That's not been the case with Trump's.

NK: So, self-reporting, cooperation, a big difference. Well, what about the… the volume of documents?

TP: The volume is also a difference. To our understanding, we know that more than 300 classified documents were found in Trump's possession at Mar a Lago. With Biden, we know that the first discovery of documents at the Penn Biden Center was just about a dozen documents. And then, when they found more classified documents at his home in Wilmington, we were told that there were six items containing classified documents. We don't have more detail on exactly what those items were or how many they were. But the understanding is that it is much fewer than… than the number of documents they found in Trump's possession.

NK: Is there a sense, you know, from… from your research and reporting that there was a political strategy at play, at least in part from the Biden administration? You know, cooperation. And that might temper the reaction and thinking the focus would stay on the Donald Trump situation. Do you think there was a political strategy at play there?

TP: So, I'm not sure political is the right word to describe it, but there was definitely a strategy in place. And from our conversations with people familiar with that strategy, they made it very clear that they wanted to keep it quiet and they wanted to focus on cooperation with the Justice Department. That their focus was on trying to assist, cooperate with the investigation in hopes that it would shut down quickly because they believe they've done nothing wrong. And so, for many months, we were unaware that this was an investigation ongoing. The first documents were found in early November, and the public reporting of the investigation didn't happen until mid-January. And during that time, there were additional searches. There were many conversations between the Justice Department and the president's lawyers, but they did not self-report to the American people or the public about the investigation. And that was an intentional strategy because they figured that if they went about it quietly and cooperatively with the Justice Department, it would close quickly. Obviously, that's not what happened. And there has been some blowback for what some say has been a lack of transparency from the White House on this.

NK: I think the question a lot of people have is, is what is going on? And it… it has the potential to sort of undermine people's already eroding trust in political systems.

TP: Yeah, I think there's a lot of questions about the processes by which senior officials in the U.S. government keep and read and access classified information. Obviously, there are many processes by which U.S. government officials look at classified information in secure facilities under the watchful eye of national security aides. I think we've seen a lot of these cases now with presidents and vice presidents, given their travel and the need that they always have classified information near or with them. I think the questions now are about the process by which they look at classified information and then the process by which that classified information is retrieved and stored safely and securely. And I think there is increasing attention, particularly on Capitol Hill, about reviewing those processes and figuring out why these classified documents continue to crop up in places that they're not supposed to be.

NK: What do you think the impact could be, as Mr. Biden and. And Donald Trump consider the 2024 race?

TP: Yeah, I think it's too early to tell what the impact is. I think, you know, there's obviously a lot of attention and concern from lawmakers on both sides of the aisle. But in terms of how this plays with the general American public, I think it's too early to say.

NK: Tyler, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

TP: Thanks for having me.

CH: Tyler Pager is a White House reporter with the Washington Post. We reached him in Washington.

[music: ambient instrumental]

Amira Elghawaby Bill 21 Comments

CH: Today, Canada's new special representative to combat Islamophobia was sounding conciliatory. Amira Elghawaby was meeting with the Bloc Quebecois leader Yves-François Blanchet. The Quebec government has been calling for Ms. Elghawaby to resign over a 2019 article that she co-authored. The article was about Quebec's restricting the wearing of religious symbols by public employees -- and it read, in part, quote, "Unfortunately, the majority of Quebeckers appear to be swayed not by the rule of law, but by anti-Muslim sentiment." Unquote. Here is what Amira Elghawaby had to say before today's meeting with Mr. Blanchet began.

SOUNDCLIP

AMIRA ELGHAWABY: I want to reiterate that I'm very pleased to have this opportunity to come and speak directly with Mr. Blanchet. It's very important that we have a chance to have a dialogue directly with one another. I have many things I would like to speak to Mr. Blanchet and to the people of Quebec. Because, you know, these are very difficult conversations, and I would like to say that I am extremely sorry for the way that my words have carried, how they have hurt the people of Quebec. And this is what I'm going to express to Mr. Blanchet. But I'm very glad to have the chance to express it. I've had a chance to listen. And this is what it's all about. This is dialogue. You know, as a member of Canada's Muslim community, we know what it's like to be stereotyped. We know what it's like for people to have biases. And I understand the words and the way that I said them have hurt people in Quebec. I have been listening very carefully. I have heard you. And I know what you're feeling. And I'm sorry. And I can't wait to have a chance to meet with you across Canada, people of Quebec, learn more and really work together to build a country, to work for a province that's stronger for everyone, safe for everyone.

CH: That was Amira Elghawaby, Canada's special representative for combatting Islamophobia in Ottawa this afternoon.

[music: jazz]

Ticketmaster: Vancouver Coldplay Fan

Guest: Maureen McCartney

CH: Maureen McCartney loves Coldplay. And she'd love to see them in Vancouver. But the tickets cost hundreds of dollars. And even worse: seats to the same show across the border in Seattle are going for about half the price. This is the kind of situation that has fans of live music so furious these days. And much of their fury is directed at Ticketmaster. Just last week, the head of Ticketmaster -- which also owns the venue operator LiveNation -- faced criticism from senators in Washington over the stranglehold the company has on the business. And today, U.S. President Joe Biden called on Congress to lower concert ticket fees. We reached Maureen McCartney in Vancouver.

NK: Well, Maureen, when you heard Coldplay… when you first heard Coldplay was coming to Vancouver, what did you think?

MAUREEN MCCARTNEY: I thought this is going to be a great concert. But then I heard rumblings that it was Ticketmaster, and there's a certain time that you have to order tickets and that this time at this date and there was rumours about this sort of pricing that it might be. And I just thought, I can't even… I can't even go there. [both chuckle]

NK: So right off the bat, you were worried when you saw that Ticketmaster was, you know, in charge of the ticket sales?

MM: Yes, yeah.

NK: Had you… had you seen Coldplay before?

MM: I haven't seen them before. I haven't seen any concerts, actually, since 2019, since before COVID. But I really enjoy their music. It's a feel-good music. It's always upbeat if you're feeling down. That's the music I put on. [chuckling]

NK: Yeah, no, for sure. How much do you think it would have cost? If you did wade in to Ticketmaster and tried to grab some tickets, how much do you think it would have cost for you and your partner to see them in Vancouver?

MM: I thought it would probably be $150 to $200.

NK: And the reality.

MM: And the reality is I think the cheapest ticket is like $400 and terrible seats and… not terrible seats, but not the best seats. And I think they went up well over a thousand. Like, it's just I can't fathom… and that's for one ticket. So, one ticket. So, you're going to have to double that when you go with your friend or partner or whatever. So, it's a very crazy expensive night, and not even the night, maybe 3 hours. [laughing]

NK: Yeah. Yeah. And then, when did you learn that… that not only are they very expensive in Vancouver, but in Seattle, they're a lot cheaper?

MM: I… I didn't hear that till a lot later, actually. And I was quite surprised the difference. Like, we're not talking about $50 or $100. I understand they're $75 there. Now, I know it's midweek. But still, like that… I just don't understand what the difference is. I don't understand why there is a difference.

NK: Lower-level seats in Seattle were selling for about $300 Canadian, and similar seats in Vancouver were going to be something in the vicinity of $800 Canadian. When you saw that difference, did you consider maybe going to Seattle?

MM: No, I wouldn't even consider it just because it's midweek. If it was a weekend, then maybe you could justify some costs. Not as much as they were asking, but then you could make a weekend out of it. It's just not happening. [chuckling] We'd want it to be a whole experience.

NK: Understandable. One professor was telling our colleagues at CBC News for their online piece that, you know, the fact that there's just one Canadian date, and it's in Vancouver helps drive up the price, and different venues have different costs associated with it. What do you make of that reasoning?

MM: I was surprised at that. And if it's the only venue, then anybody who can afford those types of tickets, well, they can afford to fly from Toronto or from wherever and make a weekend for them out of it. But it's an expensive, expensive weekend.

NK: There's a lot of pent-up demand. That's… that's for sure. You did mention you went to a concert in the States back in 2019. What made that one worth it?

MM: Well, it's an older rocker, [chuckling] Peter Frampton.

NK: Yeah.

MM: It was going to be his last tour, and it was the last show of his tour. So we thought, let's make a weekend out of this. The tickets… I looked back, and the tickets were $190 all-in U.S. We went down for the weekend. We took the train down, actually, which was like $55 each one way. We got a hotel room outside of San Francisco. It was in San Francisco. And we had a whole… whole long weekend down there. It was… it was a lot of fun, but it was a whole weekend of probably what it would cost for two tickets here.

NK: You know, last week I had the chance, Maureen, to interview the former head of Ticketmaster, Fred Rosen. He says fans shouldn't be blaming Ticketmaster. But… but have a listen and then I'll… and I'll see what you think.

MM: Okay.

SOUNDCLIP

FRED ROSEN: People got to grow up. People have to recognize it's a business. And the fact of the matter is whether Ticketmaster did it, whether Joe Jones did it, whether you did it, it's not going to change. People are always going to be angry because there's no good way to do this. And here's what nobody wants to deal with is nobody pays more for a ticket than they want because you don't have to go. And it's not noblesse oblige. The fact of the matter is, it's entertainment.

NK: What do you make of Mr. Rosen's take on things?

MM: Well… [chuckling] well, they might have to have the tickets that kind of pricing because of how much they're taking away from the artists. It's a lot of money. I don't begrudge the artists because of streaming and everything. Now the models are different. I just think the monopoly that they have is just… I mean, they make money through everything. They manage the venue. They… they bought out everyone. They have services fees to resell it. And the bots, I think the bots are a big problem. And I don't think they do enough because the bots help them make more money. And there's got to be a better way. They can't have all their… their fingers in everything. The artists have no choice but to go with them because they have the venue. They have everything.

NK: Yeah. They're under a lot of scrutiny, Ticketmaster is, in the United States, as you know. Do you think that that scrutiny and authorities in the U.S. will actually be able to change things?

MM: I think now they will. This all happened because of Taylor Swift, and I think she has a lot of pull. [both chuckle] She's, you know, one of the megastars. And I think they're all… the musicians have had enough, but they can't do it on their own. So, it has to be through the government.

NK: You clearly love live music. Does all of this that's been happening and trying to get tickets for Coldplay, you know, does it take the fun, the magic out of it for you?

MM: It does. Now, when I hear someone is coming, we don't even try to get tickets anymore. It's just not… it's just not fun anymore to go to a concert. And the people that really want to go are the diehard fans. Like, there's a lot of fans who don't have that kind of money.

NK: Maureen, I hope you get to… to see a live show soon in Vancouver. [MM chuckles] Thanks so much for… for chatting with us, Maureen. Thank you.

MM: All right. Thank you. Bye-bye.

CH: That was Coldplay fan Maureen McCartney in Vancouver.

[music: rock]

FOA: Giant Water Lily

CH: Certain debates rage on and on. Is Die Hard a Christmas movie? What's the better superpower: invisibility, or flight? What would you rather fight: one horse-sized duck, or one hundred duck-sized horses? [chuckle] And, of course, the eternal question: what species of water lily is the largest in the world? Look, I know, I know, I can practically hear some of you shouting: "Obviously it's the Victoria boliviana -- what could possibly beat a lily pad that grows over 10 feet in diameter?" But, you know, needless to say, there are the doubters who reply, "Sure, that sounds big -- but the Victoria boliviana was only designated as a new species last July! How can we be sure it's really the world's biggest?" Look, this will be hard for some of you to hear, but: the experts on world's biggest-ness have weighed in. This week, Guinness World Records made it official: the world's largest lily pad is indeed the Victoria boliviana. But you knew that if you were listening to As It Happens last summer, when guest host Ginella Massa spoke to Natalia Przelomska, a researcher with the Royal Botanic Garden in London, after the species was first identified...

SOUNDCLIP

NATALIA PRZELOMSKA: So giant water lilies are really quite a charismatic species. And they have these huge floating round leaves. So Victoria boliviana, the leaves can go to over 10 feet in diameter. They have really beautiful flowers that you'll see if you're lucky because they only bloom for two days. And they go from a white turning into pink. And if you get a little bit closer, they have a lot of spikes around the rim and also underneath. So, they are quite ominous at the same time as being beautiful plants.

GM: Interesting. Ten feet. I mean, you know, when you think of a… of a lily or a lily pad, you think of a little frog sitting on these. [NP chuckles] But it sounds like you can fit two of me on these. [both chuckle]

NP: I don't think that's completely out of the question. If… well, if you found one of the biggest Victoria bolivianas and spread yourself out lying on them, it's possible it would take your weight. We still have to test that. But, yeah, they're pretty impressive plants.

GM: And have you been able to see them up close? Have you been able to get in the water with them?

NP: So, yeah, I was really excited to do that for the first time last Friday. So you have to climb in with special waders on to stay dry and also to protect yourself from those prickles of the giant lily pad when they slowly float towards you. So that was a really exciting experience. And I hope that maybe someday I can go and see them in the wilds, but we'll see.

GM: You mentioned it has prickles. What… what purpose do those serve?

NP: Probably, they serve to protect the plant from anything that would want to eat them. So, they live in a very biodiverse area. There are so many species in the American tropics, and there's definitely going to be something in the river that wants to munch them. It's also been theorized that these prickles could be used to outcompete other plants. So if they grow really quickly, it's well, it's not a very nice thing to grow next to. So these water lilies can really dominate their environment because other plants won't want to be growing next something so spiny.

GM: And why does it matter to understand or recognize that this is actually a different species?

NP: Describing a species is a relatively big deal because it directs where we go further with our science. And also because it helps direct conservation of species. So, if we don't describe biodiversity in an area, we don't know which areas really have vulnerable, threatened species. There's actually this quite alarming fact that two out of five plant species are at risk of extinction. And this was the case for our new species that it's actually vulnerable to extinction. And like all of the other giant water lilies, this is because of threats like mining, deforestation and climate change. But because boliviana has the smallest geographical area of occupation, any of these threats will have a bigger impact on whether the species will survive.

CH: From our archives, Natalia Przelomska of London's Royal Botanic Garden, speaking to Ginella Massa last July.

[music: sad guitar]

Part 3: Northern Quoll Sex Study, “The Green Comet”

Northern Quoll Sex Study

Guest: Christopher Clemente

CH: A new study set out to explore the breeding patterns of a small marsupial native to North Australia. The northern quoll is an endangered species and the smallest of the four Australian quoll species. The little cat-like creatures have to worry about predators, changing habitats, toad poisoning, and road traffic to stay alive. And yet, one of their biggest threats is really a self-created problem: sleep deprivation -- from having too much sex. Christopher Clemente is a co-author of the study. We reached him in Sunshine Coast, Australia.

NKL: Christopher, you've called these… these quoll suicidal reproducers. At what lengths are they going to… to get some?

CHRISTOPER CLEMENTE: [chuckling] Yeah. So, these quoll are undertaking a strategy called semelparity. That's where the males will invest everything into a single reproductive event. It's kind of like the salmon that you have in Canada where they'll swim upstream, they reproduce once, and then they die. So in Australia, we have a group of marsupials that have the same sort of strategy. And the one we're talking about today is the quoll.

NK: Yeah, many of us are getting to know them as we speak. It's a fascinating story. It's not the act of mating itself that's… that you found is… is killing them. What is, though?

CC: Right. So, this mating strategy, this semelparity, is really interesting, and it happens in a few species of marsupial. There's one called an antechinus, which is a kind of marsupial mouse. It's quite small. And it's the most famously studied example because they notice that the males die after a single reproductive event. So, there was this stress hormone called cortisol that was causing these mice to… to reduce their immune system. And what was happening is that they were then having massive internal bleeding, they were having gangrene, all their internal organs failed, and they just basically disintegrated. So we thought, well, probably that's what's going on in quolls. But when we looked for the stress hormone, it wasn't there. So, it was a bit of a mystery as to why these quolls were actually dying. So, that's a bit of the inspiration for this study. So, we wanted to understand maybe it's the behaviour that killing off these male quolls.

NK: And is it?

CC: Yeah, so that's… that's what we found out in the end. So, we looked at the behaviour of the male quoll by attaching a kind of smartwatch or a Fitbit to them.

NK: Little backpacks. Little backpacks.

CC: That's right. A little backpack that records their movement using an accelerometer. And we were able to use some machine learning to figure out, you know, what the accelerometer signal looked like when the animals are running, when the animals are climbing, or when the animals are sleeping. So, we could record how active they are and how much rest they were getting. Now, the amazing thing was when we looked at things like the female quolls. They were getting what we think is a normal amount of risk. But when we looked at the male quolls, they were resting about seven or eight per cent of the day. So basically, they're spending the entire day just running around looking for females, trying to mate with as many females as possible, fighting with other males. And it's this lack of sleep that seems to be degrading their body.

NK: Sleep deprivation.

CC: Sleep deprivation, right. So, what we looked at after we saw this result was what are the other symptoms that we see in sleep-deprived animals? And we found some studies on rodents that have been sleep deprived. And they display a whole pile of symptoms, behavioural symptoms like aggression, but also physiological symptoms like weight loss and a lack of grooming behaviour. And all the symptoms that we saw in sleep-deprived rodents are the same symptoms that we saw in the male quolls during the reproductive season, but not the females. So, that leads us to believe that maybe it's this lack of rest, this lack of sleep, that's causing these male quolls to really lose their quality, and eventually, they die from it at the end of the breeding season.

NK: What can we as humans learn from this? [both laugh] I wonder as you're speaking.

CC: Well, it does give a real-life example of the dangers of too much sex and not enough sleep. [NK laughs] But I mean everything in moderation. Because we do need to… to reproduce, and quolls certainly do, in order to… for the species to persist. But you can see that there's this different strategy where humans will invest a little bit of effort into reproduction over a long period of time. Quolls have decided to go the opposite strategy where they're going to invest everything into reproduction over a very short period of time.

NK: You think they're coming across a little thirsty to… to the female quolls? Desperate!

CC: [chuckling] The female quolls must be really, really annoyed at this period. [both laugh]

NK: Well, beyond being, you know… well, sex-obsessed, they… I don't want to reduce them just to that part of their personality, though it is what's killing them, or the sleep deprivation is what's killing them. What are… what are they like?

CC: Ah, they're… they're really fun animals. So they're incredibly small, cute, and they're incredibly agile. So, we've seen them do, you know, parkour movements from rocks to trees. So, really, really voracious hunters of these little insects and lizards. And they're really quite aggressive, so they don't like being handled. You can't pet them, for example. They wouldn't make good pets. [laughing] And their bite is extremely hard.

NK: Oh!

CC: So, they're fun animals, but they certainly are wild animals.

NK: And what do you want to learn about them next?

CC: This is part of an ongoing study where we're trying to understand how things like locomotion and behaviour can give us good ideas about conservation efforts for these species because they are endangered in a lot of places in Australia due to things like habitat loss or invasive species like dogs and foxes and cats. And so, if we could understand their performance and their behaviour and how that is influenced by the different habitats that we find them in, perhaps we can figure out which habitats are most valuable for their survival. And in doing so, really help the conservation efforts of this species.

NK: Christopher, I appreciate your time. Thanks so much.

CC: Not a problem. Thanks for talking to me.

CH: Christopher Clemente is a senior lecturer in animal ecophysiology at the University of the Sunshine Coast. We reached him in Sunshine Coast, Australia.

[music: Spanish guitar]

BBC Phone Interuption

CH: If you don't want your phone to ring at a key moment, just turn it off. Or put it on silent. You and I know that. And you'd assume that people who get interviewed a lot more than you or I would know that. But that simple concept seemed to escape a former Tory Cabinet Minister and BBC presenter during an interview on the television program Newsnight. On not one, not two, not three, but four instances, Kenneth Baker -- who is now Lord Baker of Dorking -- got a call. And his phone rang. Here's what those moments sounded like.

SOUNDCLIP

KENNETH BAKER: A week ago, ten days ago. And I said, look, [sound: the iPhone stock ringtone] my advice to him is… not to listen to my telephone, never mind. [ sound: rings again] my advice to him. Would you turn it off?

HOST: I will. I'll put it on silent. You're in demand. You really are. Was this the man who actually tried to avoid paying three-and-a-half million pounds worth of tax? I pay all that through my PYE. And so --

[Sound: there’s that phone again]

HOST: Sorry, [chuckle] give me your phone.

KB: The prime minister is very insistent, isn’t he? [laughing]

HOST: Well, and can I ask you finally --

KB: And he, quite surprisingly, did it within a week.

HOST: Yes.

KB: Within a week. [sound: somebody! Please get this phone!]

HOST: Oh my gosh!

KB: He’s really trying to get through to me, isn’t he?

HOST: Someone is telling you to shush.

KB: I have no doubt about that. You can’t shake it off. It’s rather like Mr. Sharp and the BBC. It will never… [sound: phone!] he will never be able to shake over the fact of the fact that he tried to arrange a financial deal to help the prime minister when he was still trying to be the head of the UGC. He ruins the authority of the deputy prime minister if he goes on insisting it's not true. It's not true. It's not true. Many, many people already see that his authority is eroding.

HOST: Okay. Just to say, British Ops says he wasn't involved in making a loan or arranging a guarantee. And I'm going to leave it there. And there's your phone. And thank you so much for coming in.

CH: That was someone really trying to get a hold of former cabinet… U.K. cabinet minister, Kenneth Baker, while he was -- [sound: an eerie phone ringer] Oh, excuse me! While he was doing a TV interview.

[music: ambient instrumental]

“The Green Comet”

Guest: Bryce Bolin

CH: It last went past during the Stone Age, about 50,000 years ago. Comet C-slash-2022 E-3 is better known as "The Green Comet" for its eerie glow. And today, it comes closer to the Earth than it will at any other point in its entire millennia-long orbit of the Sun. Despite its long history in the universe, though, on this planet, we've only known about The Green Comet for less than a year. Last March, astronomer Bryce Bolin was one of the astronomers to first observe it, at the Zwicky Transient Facility, using high-tech equipment. But early this morning, he saw it with his naked eye in the desert in California. We reached him in Los Angeles County.

NK: Bryce, I know you got to see The Green Comet early this morning. Just tell me what that was like. What did you see?

BRYCE BOLIN: This morning, I drove out to Joshua Tree to a desert park near Los Angeles, east of L.A., and I was with some friends, and we set up a telescope, found the location of the comet in the night sky, and we saw very clearly. It was a cloudy… it was kind of… it had a kind of a cloudy appearance, kind of like a little… like a little smudge, but a very nice green colour and nuclear condensation in the middle.

NK: If we were to be able to see it up close, what would we see?

BB: If you were point blank with the comet, you might see its nucleus about one kilometre in size, surrounded by a cloud of gas and dust that would completely cover your field of view. You would see a green glowing colour, as well as multiple tails. You would see a dust tail, and you would see a gas tail going in two completely different directions.

NK: And what makes it green?

BB: The green colour comes from diatomic carbon molecules. The carbon molecules release green light when they're energized by the Sun's light, which gives the comet a green glow.

NK: If you're in to… it to looking up in the sky and space and astronomy, obviously this is going to be an exciting time for you. But what is it about this particular comet that makes it so special? Because the talk of The Green Comet has been everywhere this week. You've been with it longer, you know, studying this. But… but what makes it so special?

BB: I think it comes down to some multiple factors. The first factor is that this comet is visible from the majority of the proportion of the Earth's surface from the northern hemisphere. Second factor is that it's very bright. It comes within just naked eye brightness. And the third factor is unique in several different ways, one of which we mentioned before is the green glowing colour.

NK: So, are you surprised by all the attention it's getting?

BB: I am. It's… it is… it is surprising. I didn't anticipate when the discovery was made that it would be this popular. We knew from ahead of time that the comet would be getting close to the Earth and bright, but we didn't think it would be getting this much media attention.

NK: You were one of the first people to discover the comet last year. So, what does that mean to you personally?

BB: I think it's very cool. I think it's great to have the opportunity to discover something that many people on Earth might get to enjoy if they… if they are able to see it or enjoy seeing beautiful pictures taken by others that are posted on the Internet.

NK: If you… if you hadn't figured out that this comet was heading our way, you know, would anyone have known to... to be on the lookout for it?

BB: Well, we saw it very early. We saw it in the morning, which… which means that we were probably the first people to see the comet. However, if we hadn't detected it, it might not have been found until much more recently, much, much later than… than when we found it.

NK: Tonight and tomorrow, it's going to be making its closest pass by the Earth, The Green Comet. So, I know some of our listeners might want to catch a glimpse of it themselves now that we've hyped it up so much. So, you know, what's your advice to them?

BB: My… my advice would be to drive outside the vicinity of your town, go out to where the sky is dark. And try to go out around 4 a.m. or just below… just… just before sunrise because that's when the moon will be… will be setting and the sky will be darkest so that you have about a 30-minute time window where you can see the comet when the sky gets dark enough for you to be able to… to try and see it.

NK: And any particular direction they should be looking or positioning themselves?

BB: Yes. So, you should be looking about a little bit west towards the… the Little Dipper and the North Star. And it's going to be directly south, below the… the… the Big Dipper.

NK: Something else you told the Boston Globe caught our attention too. You said, quote, comets are the cats of the solar system. They do what they want. Can you just explain a bit more of what you meant by that?

BB: Yes. So, just like cats, comets have their own personalities, which can make them unpredictable, make their behaviour unpredictable. Sometimes, they are very active. They have outbursts where they become bright very quickly. Sometimes they fragment into many pieces. We… we just don't know. We have no way of knowing ahead of time. However, this comet seems like it has a mostly well-behaved personality, and it seems to be behaving as we expected, which makes it nice to be able to go and see.

NK: Okay. What do you hope people who do get a chance to see it… you know, we know what it's meant to you, but what do you hope, you know, people who aren't astronomers, who get… who get a glimpse of the green comet take away from that experience.

BB: Well, I hope that people can have the… enjoy the fascination of seeing an interesting object in space and locating it themselves… for themselves.

NK: What do you envision when you think back to the last time, you know, someone looked up in the sky and saw this some 50,000 years ago potentially? What comes to your mind when you think about that?

BB: Well, that's a long, long time ago. You know, we have historical records that comets are in our history. So, I think they're always seen as a special event. So, I hope that they enjoy the comet as much as we are today.

NK: It really brings science home to… to people in a different way. Do you feel that way?

BB: I think so, and I hope so. I hope people will be able to have an appreciation in seeing the comet for themselves and the enjoyment of… of looking at objects in space.

NK: Well, Bryce, I'm so glad we could chat. Thank you very much.

BB: Thank you.

CH: Bryce Bolin is an astronomer and NASA Postdoctoral Fellow. We reached him in Los Angeles County, California.

[music: soul]

FOA: Kids On Food Apps

CH: They live on different sides of our big planet. But Christian King and Mason Stonehouse have some things in common. One, they really like ordering in. And two, they very likely don't have unrestricted access to their parents' food delivery apps anymore. Last weekend in Detroit, six-year-old Mason Stonehouse's dad was shocked to see front-door camera footage of Grubhub delivery driver after Grubhub delivery driver dropping off bags of food. There were shrimp, salads, shawarma, chicken pita wraps, sandwiches, chili cheese fries, and lots of ice cream. Keith Stonehouse had given Mason his phone to play a game on -- not to order food with. But when he went to explain to his son that a thousand-dollar Grubhub order was not ideal for his credit card, he says Mason put his hand up to stop him and said, quote "Dad, did the pepperoni pizzas come yet?" Unquote. It's a fair question, and one I'd like to think Christian King would appreciate. Back in 2021, the Australian boy was four years old. And he placed an Uber Eats order that was a thing of beauty. The bill was not. Our former host Carol Off spoke with Christian's dad, Kris, about what showed up at his front door.

SOUNDCLIP

KRIS KING: Yeah. So, obviously, when it all went down, he was in… in a lot of trouble. I think I had steam coming out of my ears. He flew up into his bedroom and he was told Santa wasn't coming this year.

CO: [chuckling] OK. And I can hear him in the background. Is he… is he OK now? [chuckling] Is he… is he out of the doghouse?

KK: He's out of the doghouse. I think since we got this big following and he's become sort of this little famous icon for the week where… and also, UberEats returned the money. So, you know, you can't be angry with him anymore, can you?

CO: Well, now I've seen the bill of sale, which is about a metre long. And so, can you just tell us what your son, Christian… what did he order?

KK: I think nine ice cream cakes, 15 tubs of ice cream, 15 jars of caramel sauce, nine litres of milk. He personalized all the cakes with Happy Birthday. [alarm goes off] And he also ordered candles for himself.

CO: [laughing] Now, he's four years old, right?

KK: He is four years old. Yeah, yeah. So I'd actually… and he ordered it to… to the fire station where… where I work in Sydney. So obviously, the last time I ordered Uber Eats was when I was at the fire station working. So, he obviously sees us order this, you know, this… this a lot. You know, we order Uber Eats once a week. I think I'd say it'd be the same for you guys over there. It's just so easy, right? So, yeah, we… I actually gave him the phone. We were watching a game with my daughter, and I'm trying to look after him, plus the dog, watch my daughter. And what do you normally do? You normally throw the phone to your child to try and keep him quiet. Watch a bit of ABC Kids to try and calm him down. But little did we know he was… he was ordering a whole heap of food.

CO: OK. [chuckling] You… now, you say that it's -- as we all know -- it's pretty easy to order on these sites, but obviously a bit too easy, right? So I mean, can he read or was he look… is he doing this with pictures, or how is he deciding what he wanted to get?

KK: Well, I think I was about to order some ice cream myself on my last order. So he must've gone into UberEats, and that was already sort of there. I think it was sort of the last… yeah.

CO: He was just basing it on one of your old orders, then?

KK: He actually said to me, hey Dad, I've ordered ice cream and some cake. And I'm like, oh yeah, I didn't think anything of it until obviously, I got the phone call from UberEats. And then I, you know, I almost dropped on the floor when I'd seen the amount that he'd ordered.

CO: OK. And the amount was?

KK: Eleven hundred and thirty-nine dollars. [both laugh] You can only laugh about it now, Carol. But at the time, I was like, oh my God, what… what has he done? It was like the Dennis the Menace, you know?

CO: Now, I'm wondering if that's Christian we're hearing in the background there.

KK: That is him. He's actually turning the car alarm on and off, off and on, trying to annoy us [CO chuckles] while we do this interview, Carol.

CO: Is that… can I say hi?

KK: Hey, hey, little fella. Christian, Carol want's to say a quick little hello to ya.

CHRISTIAN KING: Not now.

KK: Not now! Why not?

CK: You'll be mean.

KK: I'm not going to be mean. What about you can have some ice cream or chocolate when we finish this interview?

CK: Cake.

KK: All right. You can have some cake. No problem. So Carol wants to ask me a couple of questions, little fellow. Fire away, Carol.

CO: Christian, how much ice cream have you had to eat since you made that order?

CK Thirty-four sixty.

KK: Does that mean you've had a lot?

CK: Yes!

KK: I think we caught him the other day, Carol. He must have… he got up before all of us and he… he grabbed himself the cone and started filling up the cone [CO chuckles] with the ice cream because you can imagine how many tubs of ice cream we've got in our fridge as well still.

CH: From December 2021, that was Kris King speaking with our former host Carol Off about how his son ordered over a thousand dollars' worth of ice cream.

[music: chillhop]

Acadian Elephant Song

CH: Have you seen the elephant? That's what Nova Scotia musician Marc LeBlanc -- also known as Marc à Paul à Jos -- thought he was being asked when he visited the village of Neguac, New Brunswick a few years ago. In fact, the friendly villager was asking him, "Have you seen 'l'île-aux-foins,'which is Hay Island -- a picturesque local spot. And very much not an elephant. That misunderstanding inspired Marc LeBlanc -- to write a song about that experience. And last month, he put the video up on YouTube -- which, in turn, inspired a snow-sculptor to create a 16-foot-tall purple elephant in Neguac. Here is Marc LeBlanc and snow sculptor Jean-Pascal Brideau, telling the story to the CBC today.

SOUNDCLIP

MARC LEBLANC: Sometimes people misunderstand me, but I also misunderstand others as well. So, I met a woman in Neguac one time. She recognized me and she said, oh, you know, welcome to the area. And I thought that she had asked me if I had gone to see the elephant. And I actually said, the elephant, what?! [all laughing]

BOB MURPHY: So, that sort of stuck with you then, I guess did it? And eventually turned into a song.

ML: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, first I had to write the song, then I had to record the song. Then we had… then we made… so, you know, it takes a while before things kind of materialize. Yeah, of course.

BM: Okay, well, the song has taken on a bit of a life of its own, and this is where Jean-Pascal Brideau comes in. He's been making snow sculptures for about 10 years, and he's on the line from Neguac right now. Hi, Jean-Pascal.

JEAN-PASCAL BRIDEAU: Hi.

BM: Hi. So, you were inspired, I guess, by this song as well. Tell us what happened. What were you involved in?

JPB: Somebody from the village of Neguac asked me if I heard the song. So, no, I was looking for the song. So then, he told me… he asked me, well, it should be fun to have a snow sculpture of an elephant. So, start from the beginning of the song. So afterwards, we work it out up to the time that I finished it. Just a monday.

BM: Okay. How long did it take you to build this sculpture?

JPB: Well, I passed about eight days to carve it. So, we had one more day because of the snow storm. So, then one more day to build the snow path. So, at least 10 days.

BM: All right. So, we now have an elephant in Neguac. It's not just folklore. We can go to Neguac and see an elephant. What are people saying about the sculptures, Jean-Pascal?

JPB: The last time I was there when I was finishing, it was just amazing how people enjoyed it. So, there's a lot of traffic and people stopping by to take pictures with family, with the kids, with… you know, it's just amazing. The elephant is just… for a pile of snow, is bringing joy to the people.

CH: That was musican Marc à Paul à Jos and snow sculptor Jean-Pascal Brideau, talking to Bob Murphy, host of Maritime Noon, today. On Saturday, Marc à Paul à Jos plans to play his song, "The Elephant from Neguac", in front of the Elephant of Neguac.

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February 1, 2023 Episode Transcript