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The AIH Transcript For August 19, 2021

[hosts]Helen Mann, Samira Mohyeddin[/hosts]

HELEN MANN: Hello, I'm Helen Mann, sitting in for Carol Off.

SAMIRA MOHYEDDIN: Good evening. I'm Ali Hassan, sitting in for Chris Howden. This is “As It Happens”.

[music: theme]

Prologue

SM: Tonight:

HM: True Colours. A freelance journalist in Afghanistan says the fact that protesters are flying the country's flag in defiance of the Taliban is telling. And Afghanistan's true future remains very much untold.

SM: Big, big spenders. A federal election is coming. And a pair of political journalists says it's shaping up to be full of surprises. Including the fact that all of Canada's major parties are promising to spend plenty of money.

HM: I speak with Gary Mason and Althia Raj about how anything from affordable housing to climate change could tip the scales, particularly in the wake of a Nova Scotia election that proved campaigns really do matter.

SM: She wouldn't be moved. A friend of the late lesbian activist Mary Cunningham Simpson tells us she was an extraordinary person trying to live an ordinary life. But her fight for housing rights became a fight for the rights of LGBTQ people everywhere.

HM: Depths of memory. Scientists have confirmed that cuttlefish can form crystal clear memories right up until their final moments -- and we've got an inkling that could challenge some age-old assumptions about aging.

SM: And much cock a doodle doo about nothing. Tourists complaining about a Spanish town's noisy roosters and messy cows were found to be milking it -- and the village mayor hatched a plan to set the pecking order straight.

SM: “As It Happens”, The Thursday edition. Radio that commends him for coming through in the clutch.

[music: theme]

Part 1: Afghan Protests, Mary Cunningham Simpson Obit, Cuttlefish Memory

Afghan Protests

Guest: Karla MacFarlane

SOUNDCLIP

[singing, honking, cheering]

SM: A remarkable scene from Kabul today: A procession of rickshaw drivers raising the Afghanistan national flag in defiance of the Taliban. Today is the anniversary of Afghanistan's independence. And this week, several protests have been held across the country -- just days after the Taliban took over. Yesterday, residents in Jalalabad tore down the black-on-white Taliban flags -- amidst the sounds of gunshots.

SOUNDCLIP

[gunshots and cheers]

SM: Meanwhile, tens of thousands of Afghans are desperately trying to reach the Kabul airport, but Taliban checkpoints stand in their way. Bilal Sarwary is an Afghan freelance journalist. We reached him in Kabul.

HM: Bilal, what does it tell you that just days after the Taliban has taken over, some Afghans are raising the national flag in the streets?

BILAL SARWARY: Well, it tells you the sort of political and social transformation that the Taliban will have to deal with as a reality in today's Afghanistan. Today, in Afghanistan, you have, you know, vibrant youth movements. You have got a generation of citizen journalism, you know, thriving. You have Afghans having access to smartphones and Internet and Facebook and Twitter. And the issue of flag has a massive emotional value. You know, it's the symbol of nationalism in Afghanistan. And over the years, I've seen how people from these provinces, from these poor communities, would take pride in buying the Afghan flag and then coming out and performing traditional Afghan dance known as Attan. So the fact that Taliban soldiers and fighters have opened fire against them also shows you that the Taliban are still in that mindset of fighting, that they have not transformed into a policing force, into providing security. And I think this is the type of transition that will be a litmus test for them

HM: Joining a protest like this in the past, 20-plus years ago when the Taliban was... was in charge would have been extremely dangerous. It would appear to be dangerous, at least from what we're seeing in Jalalabad now. Why do you think people are willing to take this risk?

BS: I think the Afghan people, they love their flag. They believe in Afghanistan. You know, the expectations are high among the people. People are saying, why are you bringing down the national flag? You know, you can have your own flag. There's a massive flag here in Kabul that the Taliban brought it down as soon as they got here. And it's sort of a different Afghanistan than the one that they ruled when they were in power -- when you didn't have civil society, you didn't have media, you didn't have, you know, a generation of Afghans having access to Internet and mobile phones.

HM: Let me ask you about that younger generation. I have heard some suggestion that there are people who are young enough to have not remembered life under the Taliban. Some are even saying wait and see, maybe this will be a new Taliban. We're just sick of the situation as it was. We're sick of the American presence. We're sick of all the money going to the government that they don't support. Is there some openness to... to potentially letting the Taliban show who it really is?

BS: Well, we'll have to see how the Taliban, for example, did with their foot-level soldiers, with their more younger, hotheaded, hot-blooded rigid fighters. But within the Taliban, there's a very clear split. We've got the political leadership who are more exposed to the world. They understand the value of legitimacy and funding. And then you've got the fighting force. This generation of Taliban commanders and fighters they don't belong to the same generation of their leaders like the 1990s. They are better fighters. They're little. They have been able to know about roadside bombs, truck bombs. They have been heavily influenced by foreign fighters, by organizations like al-Qaida. And let's see how the Taliban deal with that and then let's see how the Taliban deal with the new generation of Afghanistan.

HM: What are you hearing about what's happening across the country in terms of the Taliban's behaviour as they move?

BS: I don't have a lot of access to the provinces these days because all of my colleagues are in hiding or they are not working anymore. But in the southern province of Zabul, I spoke to a colleague of mine who works for a local radio station. And they have been asked to ban music. So no music, no soap operas.

HM: Let's talk about what's happening at the Kabul airport because we've been watching that so closely the last few days. Tens of thousands of Afghans still trying to get there. What kind of roadblocks have the Taliban put in place?

BS: I think thousands of people who are under these different schemes for the US, Canada and European countries, they don't feel safe. They've been speaking to me privately about making the trip from their homes into the... into the airport because they fear the Taliban one the way. They fear that their faces will be exposed. And they continue to call on a humanitarian corridor. But once you get to the airport, the Taliban are in charge. You are walking through the Taliban into the airport, into massive crowds of hundreds of people, unruly stampedes. You've got firing shots. Civilians getting killed. A little girl died. I spoke to the family when there was a stampede, and they were crying. They just said we do not want to say a single word. We are going back home. And it's sort of heartbreaking because they left Kabul thinking that they were heading for something better. So it is also an evacuation plan, a failed one at the eleventh hour, one with artificial timelines, according to these activists and Afghans who are in hiding. And I don't see a clear path, a clear plan of a safe evacuation. Yes, airplanes are coming to the airport, but a lot of them are leaving empty. And Afghans who should be on them can't be on them because it's not safe for them to travel. And what no one seems to be understanding is how difficult it is just to get to the airport. Today, I was watching some videos posted shows gunfight… firing, shows, Taliban fighter beating up woman and civilians. And this just has to work, you know, for... for the sake of these Afghans whose lives are at risk.

HM: People we've spoken with on the program are frightened. They are hunkering down still in their homes, as you said. There's a real fear that there's going to be a brutal crackdown, especially, you know, once the eyes of the world are maybe not watching us closely. What are your thoughts on that?

BS: I think those fears are real. If Afghanistan does not get a political settlement, an inclusive government in Afghanistan where everyone can feel safe, an Afghanistan where everyone can tolerate everyone, an Afghanistan where the transition of power takes place with, you know, ballots, not with bullets and tanks and coup d'etats then I think there is hope for Afghanistan. Otherwise, the very dark days of the 1990s could very well repeat itself.

HM: Bilal, thank you again for sharing your insights with us. And please stay safe. We... we will stay in touch. And I appreciate you speaking with us.

BS: Bye-bye.

HM: Goodbye.

SM: Bilal Sarwary is an Afghan freelance journalist. We reached him in Kabul.

[music: ambient]

Mary Cunningham Simpson Obit

Guest: Paul Johnson

SM: Mary Cunningham Simpson paved the way for the rights of same-sex couples in the U-K -- but her story isn't well known. In 1984, when her partner Nicky died, Mary was threatened with eviction from their home.

SOUNDCLIP

MARY CUNNINGHAM SIMPSON: Housing official turned up and said your name's not on the housing book, the rent book. We’re going to evict you. Well, I said she just died. He said it doesn't matter. Your name isn't on the rent book. We’re going to evict you. I looked at me two dogs, I looked at me cat, I said, Right, we got a fight here.

SM: Mary's late partner Nicky was the secure tenant of their council house. At that time in the U.K., only a husband or wife had the legal right to continue living in the home. As a gay couple, Mary was left with no legal protection -- but she wasn't about to back down.

SOUNDCLIP

MCS: Kids found out was gay and they broke every window in that house. I still stayed put. I know that trick. I saw water. And I was holed up there until we went to court and it was horrendous. But I thought, no, I'm not going to let them down trodden you. You've got a right. You’s still a human being. No matter what your sexual orientation is, you've still got a right to live.

SM: Mary Cunningham Smith made history in 1986 when she brought her case all the way to the European Court of Human Rights. Mary died this week. She was 74. Paul Johnson is a friend of Mary's, and recorded the conversation that you just heard. We reached Mr. Johnson in York, England.

HM: Paul, first of all, my condolences on the loss of your friend.

PAUL JOHNSON: Oh, thank you very much.

HM: You recorded that conversation with Mary six years ago. What goes through your mind when you hear her voice again?

PJ: I think of what a very brave person Mary was, and I think of the pioneer that she was back in the 1980s when she brought her case against discriminatory laws that meant that she couldn't stay in a home when her partner died.

HM: She fought to gain legal protections for couples like her when she lost the right to be in her council flat. What ended up happening with Mary's case? Can you take us through the process a little bit?

PJ: Yeah, of course. English law at that time made provision for a partner to succeed to a secure tenancy if they'd lived with the tenant as husband and wife. And Mary felt that although she and Nicky weren't married, of course, they couldn't marry in those days, unlike today, that they had lived together in a way that was equivalent to a husband and wife. And so she started a... well, what became a protracted legal process that began in the county court in Harrogate, progressed to the Court of Appeal in London, went to the House of Lords and ended up in the European Commission of Human Rights in Strasbourg. What happened at the European Commission is what happened virtually at every stage that she went through, which was that they wouldn't listen to her argument that people in same-sex relationships who live together did live together as husband and wife because they had the same relationships that heterosexual couples had. And the European Commission of Human Rights in Strasbourg said that none of the rights in the European Convention on Human Rights protected Mary, even though those rights did explicitly protect people's right to respect for their family life and their home.

HM: So while she was unsuccessful, you have pointed out that she really was a pioneer and had an impact on the fight for a future same-sex couples. How did she pave that way?

PJ: I think that's right. Her legacy is is that she was one of the first people in the world actually, in the whole world, to assert under international human rights law that same-sex couples should not suffer discrimination on the grounds of their sexual orientation. And she was a pioneer in the U.K., bringing a very early legal case, arguing that same-sex couples should be treated equivalently to different-sex couples. And she made that argument at a time when people thought this was bizarre. So she was truly ahead of her time in the 1980s. And so were those that supported her, her legal team, who often worked for little or no money, the LGBT community that supported her. But ultimately, she was at the forefront of it. She suffered the discrimination that came because of the case. She suffered a lot of homophobic abuse, but her case laid the ground for future cases. And this is often what happens in law. People take legal cases. They're the first people to do it. They lose, but their battle opens up vistas for new arguments, shows what parts can be taken, and people come later and they bring the same cases. And case after case is brought until eventually, they win. And that's what she did. She... she was a true trailblazer.

HM: What was life like for Mary after she lost the cases?

PJ: After she lost the cases, I think she found it very difficult. She obviously went back to living as normal a life as she could. She moved to a different part of the country and got on with her life. And her life was dedicated in most part to helping animals. And she would take in any stray animal she found and look after it. And that was a really big part of her life.

HM: When you spoke with her and had her look back at her experience, did she recognize that she was a pioneer or a hero?

PJ: She didn't really. I told her she was. But... but... but she didn't. And I think that's common with people who do bring these cases. Because although to us, they are truly extraordinary, what they actually are is very ordinary people trying to live ordinary lives. So she didn't think she had done anything extraordinary, but she really had.

HM: Why do you think more people don't know about her?

PJ: I think they are known for a short time, but the world moves on and they become forgotten. And that was my motivation for interviewing Mary and people like her, and to collect their testimonies together in a book so that people will remember the very brave actions that they took. And not forget them. And to remember that the freedoms that they enjoy today in the U.K. are down to people like Mary.

HM: Is there any one memory of her or something that she might have shared with you that... that gives you comfort and that fills you with positive memories of her?

PJ: My overriding memory of Mary is not related to any one thing she said, but to the extraordinary kindness that she always exhibited when she spoke about anyone or anything until we spoke with the greatest kindness and compassion. And the thing that I think about is that people who are treated so badly and so cruelly often don't react with anger and bitterness, but develop an enduring compassion for other people. And to me, she was the epitome of that.

HM: She sounds like a lovely person. Thank you for sharing your memories with us.

PJ: It's been a real pleasure. Thank you very much.

SM: Paul Johnson is a friend of gay rights pioneer Mary Cunningham Simpson. She died this week in Calne, England. She was 74.

[music: folk]

Cuttlefish Memory

Guest: Alex Schnell

SM: Their lives are short, but their memory is sharp. Cuttlefish only live for about two years, but up until they die, the eight-armed, three-hearted sea creatures can remember details of last week's dinner -- and make decisions to get their preferred meal. The findings were published in the journal Proceedings of the Royal Society B. Alex Schnell is the study's lead author and a comparative psychologist from the University of Cambridge. We reached her in Newcastle, Australia.

HM: Alex Schnell, give us some examples of the kind of things a cuttlefish can remember when it comes to its meals?

ALEX SCHNELL: Well, they specifically remember three things about their meal events, and that's what they ate, where they ate it and how long ago.

HM: Which is probably [chuckling] better than many of us. You conducted memory tests in, I understand, two-dozen cuttlefish. What did the tests actually look like? How did you design them?

AS: So we can't really communicate with cuttlefish, obviously. So I have to design them in a way where their behaviours can tell me whether they've solved the task or not. So essentially, I set up, I guess, little cuttlefish cafes, you could call them, [HM chuckles] within their tank. And some cafes offer... one of the cafes offered their favourite meal, and the other cafe offered a less preferred meal. They were also open at different times. So the cafe with the less preferred meal would be open more frequently, whereas the cafe with the preferred meal would be open less frequently. And so, in order to make decisions about whether to search for food each afternoon, they would have to recall a specific event that happened that morning about where they ate, what they ate and how much time had passed since their last meal?

HM: And one of the things that you were looking at is how older cuttlefish perform compared to younger ones. How did they do?

AS: Yeah, so we were quite surprised at that because, in humans, memory declines with age, and the first type of memory to go is usually the episodic memory system, which is a type of system that we were testing in cuttlefish. And this is common across mammals. So we expected a little bit of a decline in memory performance in the older cuttlefish, but we actually saw comparable performance across both age groups. We tested a group of cuttlefish that were, say, middle-aged and a group of cuttlefish that were, you know, quite old, nearing the end of their life -- so compared to retirees in humans. And the older cuttlefish perform just as well as the younger cuttlefish, they even outperformed the younger cuttlefish in part of the test.

HM: And how did you react? What did you think when you figured this out?

AS: [chuckle] Well, they never cease to surprise me. I always have these certain predictions as to how the experiment is going to play out. But I always am left with a little bit of a surprise. They… [chuckle] they're very different from the more traditional animals that we study, particularly their brains. So they do not have a hippocampus, which is what vertebrate brains usually have. And these structures are the epicentre of learning and memory. Now, cuttlefish have a different structure, the vertical lobe. And in a previous study, it was found that this lobe is preserved even at old age. There's no obvious signs of degeneration until, say, the last two or three days of their lives. So we, you know, we're suggesting that perhaps the preservation of this particular structure allows them to have these crystal clear memory recollections until, you know, the last days.

HM: Mm-hmm. So can you make any comparisons to human memory, you know, saying how much better than aging humans, aging cuttlefish are when it comes to this type of memory?

AS: Well, I guess the equivalent of our older cuttlefish cohort would be equivalent to humans in their 90s. So it'd be similar to, you know, our older grandparents remembering every detail about what they'd eaten for breakfast that morning or the previous day. And we know that that's not very common at the age of 90.

HM: Right.

AS: So, yeah, it was pretty surprising to have these older cuttlefish outperform the younger ones at this age, and remembering all those details about the meal that they had previously consumed.

HM: So you... you understand the difference in the brain structure from, say, humans, but do you have any idea how it is that they are able to remember these things even as they age?

AS: No, I mean, that's something that we are still looking into. It could be the fact that they have the different neuroanatomy. It could also be a, you know, a different evolutionary pressure that's driving them to preserve this type of memory. Or it could be a combination of both. So one reason we suggest as to why they might be preserving this type of memory has a lot to do with their life history. So cuttlefish, they only breed at the end of their life, say towards three-quarters. At three-quarters through their life, they become sexually mature, and they breed. And they have this one breeding session where they... breeding period, where they come together, and they need to mate with as many partners as possible so that they can spread their genes. So we suggest that this really crucial moment in their life might be optimized by remembering who they mated with, where and how long ago.

HM: It's always fascinating to hear about cephalopods and how they think and behave. I have new respect for cuttlefish now. Thank you so much for telling us about your research.

AS: [chuckling] No problem, thanks for listening.

HM: OK, bye-bye.

AS: Bye.

SM: Alex Schnell is the lead author of a new study on the memory of cuttlefish. She's a comparative psychologist from the University of Cambridge. We reached her in Newcastle, Australia.

[music: carnival music]

Spanish Town Complaints

SM: Some of the very best experiences include some inconvenience. The absolute thrill of completing a marathon requires training for one. Or so I'm told. The wonderment of standing atop Machu Picchu means waking up early enough to make you wonder if it's worth it. Which we strongly suspect it is. But this principle seems to have been lost on a particular type of tourist visiting the Spanish village of Ribadesella. It is -- by all accounts -- a lovely place. Nestled on the coast in the Bay of Biscay, it boasts sandy beaches, prehistoric caves and all around bucolic beauty. But it's not the local sights that these travellers are concerned about.

SOUNDCLIP

[a rooster chimes in morningsong]

SM: No, what's got them sounding off are the --

SOUNDCLIP

[rooster can’t chill]

SM: Are you quite finished?

SOUNDCLIP

[this rooster bit is old now]

SM: [sigh] What’s got them sounding off are the local sounds. Specifically, the sounds of the town's farm animals. Ribadesella's mayor Ramón Canal says a number of tourists have been making noise about the noise -- including one who insisted he had to, quote, "DO SOMETHING." So he did. Mr. Canal created a poster that reminds visitors they must be prepared to, quote, "assume all the risks" of rural life. Or -- we can only assume -- they're free to leave. The mayor says he's keen to remind urbanites that milk doesn't come from cartons; it comes from cows. And if you're tempted to have a field day over that you should know that he's really not in the moo'd.

[music: plucky jazz]

Part 2: Election Panel

Election Panel

Guests: Althia Raj, Gary Mason

SM: As you may have heard, an election is coming. Canadians are heading to the polls on September 20th, or earlier if you plan to vote by mail. Liberal leader Justin Trudeau says an election is necessary because after the last 17 months, Canadians have a right to decide what their future looks like. If you ask the other leaders, that is up for debate. What isn't up for debate is that this will be an election like no other. Over the last year and a half, there has been a pandemic, climate change disasters, a reckoning on anti-Black racism and Indigenous rights, and an ongoing housing crisis -- to name a few. So to break down the first week of the campaign and where the leaders stand, we're joined by Althia Raj and Gary Mason. Althia Raj is a political journalist who appears on The National's At Issue panel. She's in Ottawa. And Gary Mason is a Globe and Mail columnist in Vancouver.

HM: Althia, I'll start with you. It's the dog days of summer, we’re in a pandemic, there's wildfires raging in the West. Do you think the average voter even cares that there's the federal election going on right now?

ALTHIA RAJ: I love that you're asking me this question because, obviously, [chuckling] I'm paying attention. But I would say my neighbours are probably not as interested as I am. I think part of the calculation, and I'm told that the next week is going to be more interesting on the campaign trail, is that the party leaders expect most campaigns to still be on vacation and not really completely paying attention to everything that's going on. I think we'll see and hear more interesting things as the weeks continue, and especially after Labour Day, when the campaign will really hit full-swing.

HM: Gary, what are your thoughts on this and the timing? Does a low-key election perhaps help or hurt Justin Trudeau's hopes of winning a majority?

GARY MASON: I would say a low-key election maybe hurts his… his… his chances. But I just wanted to expand for a second on Althia's comment. I think the situation in Afghanistan has focused attention on the election in a very unexpected way. And then I think something else, you know, the recent polling that has come out indicates that the race is already tightening. So there might be more people listening than we... than we think.

HM: I'll get to Afghanistan further in a moment. I want to ask you also, Gary, though. You know, we saw what happened in Nova Scotia this week, a surprise upset there with the Conservatives winning the election. Does that... could that potentially be something that is worrying the federal Liberals right now?

GM: I think it has to be. I mean, that was... that was a shocking upset in Nova Scotia. I mean, the Tories were I think I read somewhere like 23 or 25 points behind at the start of that campaign. And that that race got completely upended. If I was Trudeau, I would be very... or starting to get very worried at this point.

HM: Althia, what do you think when you look at Nova Scotia?

AR: I think the Liberals are worried about... because of one thing in particular, which is that the Progressive Conservatives there ran on a health care promise to spend lots more money. And one of the surprises, if you could call it that, in the Conservative platform that was released earlier this week, is that Erin O'Toole would like to spend more money on health care transfers. And the federal Liberals are very aware of the fact that they cannot let the Conservatives outspend them when it comes to health care. And they are making sure that they're offering is going to be more generous than the total offering that the conservatives are putting forward.

HM: Well, in fact, you mentioned health care spending. I see Justin Trudeau pledging nine billion dollars for long-term care today. Gary, is this the kind of thing that you think could strike a chord with voters, particularly given everything that we've lived through with the pandemic and its impact on vulnerable people?

GM: Well, it seems to me that... that voters are in favour of big spending, as Althia pointed out. I mean, the... the Conservatives, you would think that this would be the prime opportunity for the Conservatives to sort of ring the alarm over how much spending is being done in Ottawa. Now, the Conservatives are talking about not balancing the budget for at least a decade. So it seems the public is in a mood, especially coming out of the pandemic, for sort of a big spending program. So, yeah, I think that it's precisely the reason that you see the Tories and the NDP and virtually everyone going along with the same program.

HM: Althia, Gary mentioned Afghanistan. It's the story that we have, of course, been covering intensely this week. We're looking at those terrifying images of people trying to get out of the country. What are your thoughts on... on how this might influence Canadians votes, particularly, of course, when we're talking about how... how the government is handling the evacuation?

AR: Yeah, I’d say two things. One, foreign affairs has never really been a big strength of the Liberal government. I mean, when they were elected in 2015, if you remember, Justin Trudeau's calls of Canada is back, that we were going to be reinvesting more in peacekeeping. And frankly, our mission in Mali was very short-lived. So I think that foreign affairs is not seen as a strength. And as long as that is in the newscycle, I think that reminds voters of kind of big, lofty promises on this front and weak delivery. I think the other problem for the Liberals is that this speaks to governance. If the Liberals seem to be shirking their responsibilities of governing the country, the prime minister is still the prime minister. Minister Sajjan is still the national defence minister. Marc Garneau is still the foreign affairs minister. Because they chose to go and have an election which is entirely of their choosing at this moment instead of doing their jobs, I think that's going to reflect really badly on them.

HM: Gary, Conservative leader Erin O'Toole spent a lot of the week talking about vaccines. You've written about this in your column. If you believe the polls, he has a steep hill to climb. As you say, the numbers are closing up. But this is a particularly emotional issue for many voters. Do you think he's connecting on this?

GM: Well, I mean, I think that the... I think that the Liberals were kind of hoping to portray the Conservatives as sort of anti-vaxxers. And I think that... but I think that O'Toole has been actually pretty skilful in the last sort of 48 hours in trying to handle this issue and saying, you know, he's pro-vaccine, but he's also, you know, pro-choice, I guess, when it when it comes to that. But at the same time, you know, when... when Trudeau announced the vaccine mandates on the... on the federal civil service, and O'Toole said, well, you know, he wasn't in favour of a vaccine mandate, but he was in favour of testing. I think he kind of killed that issue. And I know that Justin Trudeau was talking about it again today, and he kind of dropped the whole matter of the federal civil servants and the differences that they have with the Conservatives and then kind of focussed on, you know, planes and trains and automobiles and the [chuckle] and the the restrictions that he’s going to place there. So I don't know. I think that the... the idea that the Conservatives are anti-vaxxers, I think, is maybe dying as an issue for the Liberals.

HM: Althia is Erin O'Toole in between a rock and a hard place in some areas when it comes to his party?

AR: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is another one of those issues. And the Conservative Party, I think, is probably the hardest party in the country to lead, actually. Because of the different wings of the party that are, frankly, in contrast with each other on so many different issues. And, unfortunately, vaccination is one of them. I agree with Gary. In some ways, I think that the Liberal’s plan on imposing mandatory vaccination on all federal public workers when you think of bureaucrats in Ottawa working at their desk was a bit of an overreach. If they had just focussed on the attacks regarding the fact that Mr. O'Toole is not in favour of ensuring that everybody who boards a plane or a train is fully vaccinated, or the fact that he cannot guarantee and did not even want to ask his candidates to all be fully vaccinated, candidates who are meeting hundreds, thousands of Canadians during this election campaign. I think there would be less gray in the conversation, and the Liberals may have been able to land a more direct attack.

HM: Obviously, it's very early going. I know you mentioned polling numbers at this point, Gary, but how do you think the NDP is going to fare? Is Jagmeet Singh likely to make some gains this time?

GM: Well, I mean, he's certainly in a much better place than he was in the last election when a lot of people were talking about his leadership and, you know, whether he was going to be able to survive that election. And I think he certainly came out of it well. And I think if anybody is kind of gathering some momentum in this election early on, it would be Jagmeet Singh. I think they could make some serious gains where his message certainly is connecting with millennials. I mean, the polling that I've seen suggests that... that's... this is a group that has helped the Liberals in the past. They may be disappointed with the progress that the Liberal Party has made around issues like climate change, and they could be gravitating to the NDP. So this could be a really big campaign for Jagmeet Singh.

HM: Althia, I want to ask you about Annamie Paul. All that drama around her leadership. At the same time, she’s trying to make her presence known. She's been focussing her campaign in Toronto, where she's hoping to win a seat. Do... do you think it looks like she has any chance to do that?

AR: Well, I'm not in Toronto Centre, and I haven't spoken to any of the voters in Toronto Centre. So I'm not sure I can give you a good answer on that. I think she is essentially trying to ensure that she remains the leader of the Green Party. In her calculation, if she cannot win that seat, then she is likely no longer going to be leader of the Green Party.

HM: Gary, we're speaking with you in Vancouver, of course, and it's hard not to think that the wildfires raging in the province won't have some kind of impact. Do you think that that is something that... that's going to influence people's thinking out there, particularly when we're talking about issues like climate change?

GM: Mm-hmm. I would expect climate change to become a much bigger issue as the campaign goes on. Because I still think, despite what Erin O'Toole has done to sort of modernize the Conservative thinking around climate change, bringing in a carbon tax --

AR: Price on carbon.

GM: Oh, sorry… sorry. That's right. A price on carbon, yes. [all chuckle] But I still think that there's, you know, a big enough gulf there between the Liberal plan and a 170-dollar-a-tonne price on carbon and what the Liberal are... and what the Conservatives are planning. This is a massive, obviously, the number one issue confronting the entire world. And Canada is obviously part of that. So I would think that Mr. Trudeau would... would start harping on this and the difference between the two major parties very soon. I think... I think that that's a real opening for him. And the other issue, I think that is going to have to, you know, come to the fore pretty soon would be housing, too. That's a massive issue out here that nobody really has talked about. Mr. O'Toole kind of unveiled his platform today.

HM: We did hear Jagmeet Singh speak about housing in Burnaby this week.

GM: Yeah, that's right. I actually think in looking at the... the various plans around housing, I think that's... that's an area where the Tories actually come out ahead. I think they have a far more aggressive plan to deal with this issue than... than the Liberals. So those are the two big issues that I'm waiting to sort of evolve and become something bigger as the campaign goes on.

HM: Althia, what do you think we're not hearing that we should look for in the coming weeks?

AR: Well, I agree with Gary. I mean, we're actually also told that these are issues that will emerge. The Liberals certainly will remind voters that at the Conservative Party convention, most Conservative delegates voted against a motion basically saying that climate change was real. So regardless of what Erin O'Toole says, his party membership doesn't agree with him. That is also an issue, though, that could prove to be difficult for them to manage when you have Jagmeet Singh reminding younger voters, as Gary noted, especially, that the Liberals make all kinds of promises when it comes to the environment and climate change. But then they bought a pipeline. I'm expecting that we'll hear more about reconciliation and Indigenous issues, which is something that the Liberals kind of talked about but haven't delved into detail. I'm sure we're going to talk a lot more about abortion. So we'll... we'll start talking about social issues as well, for sure.

HM: Before I let you go, any standout or favourite moments so far from any of the campaigns?

AR: Well, I was struck by the cover of the Conservative Party's platform, which has Erin O’Toole kind of looking like contractor in a tight muscle tee-shirt shirt with a man with the plan, which is not the branding that we have come to associate with Mr. O'Toole, which is usually a man with a suit and a tie, you know, at work with his glasses. And so that's an interesting repositioning. That is probably my favourite moment of the campaign so far.

GM: Gary, your --

AR: My light moment.

HM: Oh, your light moment.

GM: Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess... I guess mine was the Willy Wonka ad. Actually, I couldn't believe it. And now, of course, they've had to take it down. Twitter took it down over a copyright infringement, which was just... which was just perfect in terms of how this story ends. But I was... yeah, I'm just quite shocked at how poor some of the Tories ads have been.

AR: I think both these things speak to the fact that they're so... they’re... they're so unpolished with regards to the Willy Wonka ad.

GM: Yeah.

AR: And then so off-brand that they drive engagement and social media and they get people to click on them and drive traffic. And then when the Conservatives actually have a message to deliver, they have this new giant pool of voters they can connect with.

GM: oh, so think it's part of a joint --

HM: Strategic.

AR: I think it’s part of a strategy. Yeah, of course. [all chuckling]

HM: All right. We'll have to see if that works out. Look, thank you both. We’ve got a long way to go. Appreciate you recapping the week with us.

GM: OK, thanks, Helen.

HM: Bye.

GM: OK. Bye-bye.

SM: Althia Raj is a political journalist who appears on The National's At Issue panel. She's in Ottawa. And Gary Mason is a Globe and Mail columnist in Vancouver.

[music: uke!]

Halifax Tents Taken Down

SOUNDCLIP

[screaming, sirens, a woman yells “hey”, a man screams “don’t touch her”]

SM: It was a chaotic scene yesterday in downtown Halifax, after police showed up to take down shelters and tents in city parks. Police pepper-sprayed protestors and arrested 24 people -- all of whom were later released. Matthew Smith spent the last two weeks living in a tent with his girlfriend in Horseshoe Island Park. Mr. Smith spoke with the CBC yesterday as he prepared to leave.

SOUNDCLIP

MATTHEW SMITH: Me and my girlfriend and my cat have been here for six days. And then I thought they might give us trespassing notices and give us a court date and then leave. But apparently, yeah, I waited for two hours, and they weren't going to leave. And they said if I didn't pack up my stuff, they would physically confiscate my stuff, confiscate my animal and arrest me and take me to jail. They’ll probably release me later. But we all got 237 dollar fines, which obviously no one can pay because we're living in a park. And now, we really don't have anywhere to go. We're just going to probably get dropped off at another site away from their prying eyes. And the same thing will repeat a couple of weeks unless someone... someone does anything. And unfortunately, because of who won the election last night, I don't... I don't even think they have an affordable housing platform.

NICOLE SEGUIN: Did they offer you anywhere to go like a hotel?

MS: No, no, they gave us a piece of paper with two names on it. That one of the names visited us yesterday and told us that there is nothing he can do for housing. He could get us a meal or a shower. But when it comes to housing, there's just nothing available right now.

SM: That was Matthew Smith yesterday speaking with the CBC's Nicole Seguin. Today, Halifax mayor Mike Savage responded to the forced removals.

SOUNDCLIP

MIKE SAVAGE: You know, you don't want to have that. But we believe in terms of public health and safety of both those who are living in these conditions, but also the people in the neighbourhoods who have had some significant issues that this was something that we had to do.

PORTIA CLARK At that point, though, when the removal was being resisted, given that the city has said there wouldn't be a deadline to remove these, that this would be an empathy-based approach, could the police have not gone into that situation? Could have been deescalated and another approach reconsidered?

MA: We saw deescalation happening in a number of locations yesterday. Obviously, there wasn't any kind of violent protest or resistance at the other locations that we had. That's our hope. That's our plan. But we have taken a very patient approach on this. It was a couple of months ago that we issued notices to people saying, look, [clears throat] we have other locations for you to go. You know, a condition before we moved was to work with the province, who were very helpful, in saying that we need to have better options for people than to live in sheds and tents. And so those were made available.

PC: Are there better options? And were they offered, though, because some of the people who are evicted say they weren't offered other housing.

MS: We have had a number of people take that offer up and are living more comfortably in hotels or in shelters. And, you know, the province have moved to create more shelter beds, which is useful. We... we all have to recognize that we have a serious housing issue in the city, as other cities across the country do. We all have a responsibility, including the city, who don't have a legislative mandate for housing. But we've gone beyond that and are offering land to housing developments, forgiving fees and charges. Our centre plan, which we had a great debate about this week, has a very important component around affordable housing. And so we are trying to do those things that we can do to work with other orders of government to... to give people better options.

SM: That was the mayor of Halifax, Mike Savage, speaking with CBC's Portia Clark today on "Information Morning."

[music: ambient]

B.C. Lions Fan

SM: It has been nearly two years since the B.C. Lions played in front of their fans at home. But that's changing tonight as the Vancouver-based CFL team takes on the Edmonton Elks ... in front of real, non-cardboard cutout, humans. Joan Borslein is a BC Lions superfan who spoke with the CBC this morning, ahead of the game.

SOUNDCLIP

JOAN BORSLEIN: I'm actually quite excited about attending the game tonight and I have to thank my account person who looked after me because I'm not modern and I don't have a cell phone or a smartphone and I didn't have a desktop computer. And it was like, how am I going to get my tickets? But he helped me. So thank you. Thanks, Pierre.

GLORIA MACARENKO: [both laughing] That is rare. That is very rare these days. So I'm glad you've had someone to help you through that part of the process. What have you missed most over this past year?

JB: I think just the camaraderie of my fellow fans in the area. We've sat in our seats for a long time. And I'm just hoping to see a few of them tonight and think that they've come through COVID and they're all good. And I just... I like the game. I enjoy the Canadian football game more so than the NFL. But I did succumb and watch some NFL games last year just out of desperation. But I'm just excited about seeing the Canadian game again.

GM: Well, yeah. And in-person, right?

JB: In-person. Oh, yeah.

GM: Live attendance is allowed for... for this game. And I know they can't fill the stadium. I think they have to have it at least at half capacity or what they would normally allow in. So as per the rules, 50 per cent capacity at the stadium. Fans are not required to social distance. They're encouraged, though, not to mingle. Like you say, you're looking forward to that camaraderie. But at a distance. How do you feel about the safety measures?

JB: Oh, I'm fine with it. I'm... I'll sanitize and I'll be masked. And I'm double-vaxxed. And, you know, I'm prepared just to go and and I'm, you know, quite happy waving at someone from a distance, you know, that's... that's good.

SM: That was Joan Borslein speaking with the CBC's Gloria Macarenko on "The Early Edition" today, as BC Place brings back fans for the first time in 656 days to cheer on the B.C. Lions.

August 19, 2021 Episode Transcript

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