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The AIH Transcript for November 18, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight:

CO: The criminal intent. Vancouver's mayor says his city already sees drug addiction as a health issue, not a crime. So it's time Ottawa allowed it to stop policing users.

CH: Conflict of interest. The press secretary for Ethiopia's Nobel Peace Prize winning leader tells us the prime minister is as determined as ever to continue the military push that has already displaced tens of thousands.

CO: It's been 46 years since our guest lost her sister in the deadly pub bombing in Birmingham, England. Tonight, she'll tell us how she feels about the news that police have made an arrest.

CH: Renaming names. Halifax's former poet laureate says it's time for her community to fix all the places there are still using an outdated spelling and mispronunciation of Mi'kmaq.

CO: Their enthusiasm was contagious. In its advertising an American grocery store chain avoided controversy like the plague before its most recent ad went viral in more than one way.

CH: And putting the baum in Tannenbaum. There's a lot of mockery being directed at the giant lopsided Christmas tree adorning New York's Rockefeller Centre. But the woman whose family donated it says it's just going through an awkward tree-nage phase. As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Radio that probably suggests it is in need of some sprucing up.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Mi'kmaw writer says it's about time Halifax get rid of 'Micmac' on street signs

Vancouver drug decriminalization

Guest: Kennedy Stewart

CH: Over the past eight months, far more people have died of overdoses in British Columbia than of COVID-19. And Vancouver's mayor, Kennedy Stewart, says it's time we start treating his city's overdose epidemic as the health crisis it is. At a press conference today, the mayor announced he plans to ask Ottawa for permission to decriminalize simple possession of illicit drugs in Vancouver. It would be an unprecedented move in Canada, and Mayor Stewart says that's because his city is facing an unprecedented crisis. We reached him in Vancouver.

CO: Mayor Stewart, what makes this the right time to take this action and ask the federal government to decriminalize the simple possession of illicit drugs?

KENNEDY STEWART: Well, really, it's got to do with the dramatic increase in overdose deaths here in our city. You know, prior to COVID, we've been making some move on, reducing overdose deaths. But in combination, it's really been a deadly year. We've had 328 overdose deaths in the city since January 1st -- that's one death a day. And we've got to do everything we can to get this under control because it's just tragic.

CO: And why would this make a difference? Give us a sense of that.

KS: Well, we really need a combination of things. This is not a silver bullet, but really the main impact of decriminalizing simple possession would reduce stigma that would, you know, get people from using alone into health services. And the federal government has the power to do this through an exemption, which I'll be requesting.

CO: Just give us a sense of what difference it would make for people if this was the case. How could it possibly reduce the extraordinary overdose death rate that you have in the city of Vancouver?

KS: Well, if I can just paint you a picture -- I mean, you know, if you're on prescribed drugs, for example, to deal with a health condition, you talk about it with friends and neighbors, and get help when you need it. If you're using illicit drugs, you often use alone. And what happens when your illicit drugs are poisoned with fentanyl, which 99 percent of our drugs are you overdose at a much higher rate on your own and you die. And reducing stigma is a big part of making sure that people are using drugs safely and really working with the health care professionals to improve their lives.

CO: And how much worse has it been during the pandemic?

KS: It's been really bad here. I mean, physical distancing -- we have about 7000 single room occupancy hotels here, you know, single rooms without bathrooms. Usually you can have guests, but under COVID with physical distancing, you're no longer allowed to have guests. And that means a lot more people are using alone. We have a number of overdose prevention sites here in the city. Usually we'd have about I believe numbers of about 6000 regular users that's been halved. And so a lot more people are using alone because of the COVID-19 policy restrictions. And that has caused a spike, which is, of course, people are dying from. But also it's burning out our first responders who are reviving people over and over and over again with naloxone. So it's really a dire situation. And of course, the important thing is we issue naloxone kits -- they are everywhere in the city. And if you're with somebody else and you overdose, you can be revived, and it's kind of a buddy system. But when you're in your house by yourself or with stigma, maybe you're not a regular user of drugs, maybe your family doesn't know that you do this, you live in an apartment on your own and you die alone. So often this is associated with, say, the downtown eastside folks that are kind of down on their luck. But this is now spread right across our city, impacting all income levels and folks from different backgrounds.

CO: Now, you have support for this idea -- the premier of British Columbia, you've got the both the provincial health officer, the city's chief medical officer, the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. What else do you need in order to get Ottawa to sign on?

KS: Well, I think I'm very lucky that we have Patty Hajdu, the federal health minister, who herself has as a background in harm reduction. We've had many informal conversations about this. I'm hoping that not only will it be approved, but will have swift approval so we can get to work on the ground here in the city.

CO: So what are you hearing back from them at this point?

KS: Well, I mean, my informal conversations with the health minister have been very positive, and they're positive enough for me to, you know, ask council for permission to write a formal letter and then to work with the police and local health authorities to make it work. So I'm very hopeful this will happen. Although, you know, in Vancouver we've been ahead of this for a long time. And when we had that first supervised consumption site back in the early 2000s, it's something that that our residents are in favour of. But in the rest of Canada, it's not so perhaps well understood. And so there may be some work to do nationally for the federal government, but I'm really hoping that they, you know, sign onto the letter quickly and we can start to save lives right away.

CO: So some of the reluctance on the part of the federal government might be because what you just mentioned, which is that larger parts of the Canadian population might see that decriminalization of these illicit drugs is giving permission for people to use -- it is actually permitting a crime. So what do you say back then? What's the argument you give to those in Canada who don't understand or don't think that this should happen?

KS: Well, you know, I would say Vancouver is a perfect place to trial this. I mean, essentially, we've decriminalized drugs anyway. The police, I think we had six suggested charges last year for possession. So we've adopted an informal way here, again, we don't arrest people for simple possession of any drugs in most cases. This would formalize it, though, which is an important step forward and again, reduce stigma. So look at the results so far, I think is that, you know, we've made some moves here. I think the death rate would be a lot higher if we didn't have access to the tools that we have and, for example, the beginnings of safe supply here in the city. But we need this to move ahead. And, you know, tomorrow morning I'm going to wake up as mayor and there'll be another dead resident, and it's too much.

CO: As you mentioned, there are 328 overdose deaths in the city of Vancouver this year alone, and you fear there might be another one tomorrow. But that you already had more than 1,500 since 2016. What effect does that have on your city?

KS: It's just a part of everybody's conversation, you know, and we didn't think that COVID-19 would impact the death toll as it has, but it's really been devastating. And when you talk to members of the community, people who live with addiction, everybody's lost so many friends and family members. And the tragedy is just compounding itself. So if we can save one life, it's worth it.

CO: Mayor Stewart, we'll leave it there. Thank you.

KS: Thank you.

CH: Kennedy Stewart is the mayor of Vancouver. That's where we reached him.

[Music]

Halifax Mi'kmaq name

Guest: Rebecca Thomas

CH: Members of the Mi'kmaq community have called the term outdated and disrespectful. But in the Halifax Regional Municipality, you can find the term on a whole bunch of official signs. Yesterday, Dartmouth Councillor Sam Austin asked and introduced a motion requesting a staff report to study the renaming of several streets, a park, and a transit terminal that include the term "Micmac." Rebecca Thomas is a Mi'kmaw author and Halifax's former poet laureate. She's been speaking out on this issue. We reached her in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia.

CO: Rebecca, when you travel around your community, Halifax, Dartmouth, how often do you see these outdated spellings and pronunciations?

REBECCA THOMAS: A fair amount, especially when I'm out, you know, walking my dog in the areas that I go. There's lots of street names, there's lake names, there's private business names, there's athletic club names, all with the spelling Micmac.

CO: And we're talking about the spelling being "Micmac."

RT: Yes.

CO: And so how does it make you feel when you see that spelling and all those names?

RT: Just exasperated. We know for a long time that this is incorrect, and yet here it is. And folks say, oh, you know, this is a business or this is a place or this is something that's been around for 20, 30, 40, 50 years, and to change it would be such a shame. And I can't help but think like, well, we've been around for 12,000 years. So it would be kind of nice if you respected that legacy.

CO: The ones that are suggested to be renamed it's Micmac Boulevard, Micmac Transit Terminal, Micmac Drive in Dartmouth, Micmac Streets, Micmac Court in Halifax. What do you think should happen? What would you like to see changed?

RT: I mean, just kind of removing that spelling. And there are lots of other ways in which you can name streets and honour people and whatnot without, you know, maintaining this kind of like long standing misnomer.

CO: The correct spelling is what? Can you give that to us?

RT: Well, it depends. But if you're referring to the nation, the people, it would be Mi'kmaq.

CO: Which is pronounced Mi'kmaq, is that right?

RT: Yeah, Mi'kmaq.

CO: Now this is before city council, do you want to see it changed to Mi'kmaq? Do you want to see that spelling on those signs?

RT: Not necessarily, because I think that switching it that way won't necessarily change the way people reference or pronounce the street, right. like, I think people will still say Micmac, but just the spelling will be different. I think that to get away from that altogether, we have lots of Mi'kmaq people asking Nova Scotian people that we can look at naming and we can go beyond that. You know, colonization and the expansion of Canada has done terrible things to us and our, you know, people of colour, but they've also done lots of horrible things to the flora and fauna, you know, that existed here long before they did.

CO: What do Mi'kmaq say about being in your community and seeing this Micmac everywhere they go?

KS: I mean, it depends. I can't speak on behalf of like all Mi'kmaq people. But, you know, there is pieces that are generational. You know, my father, he's 77, he's a residential school survivor. And for a very long time, he said the word Micmac back because that's how he grew up being called, like that's how he understood it. And so I'm not in a place where I can tell my dad and elders like, oh, you're saying your nation wrong. But understanding that that's what he was called when he, you know, was growing up in residential school and that's what stuck. So it's really difficult to say, like on behalf of the Mi'kmaq people, this is how we feel. But I can say for me and many people like me and of my generation are tired of, you know, being, I guess, patronized.

CO: But why did Micmac even become the name of all these locations and places?

RT: That I don't know. I'm assuming you see a lot of Indigenous words and names that get taken and called places like when you say, you know, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, you are speaking various Indigenous languages. Ottawa is is a nation. We've named cars, Pontiac and Winnebago. And, you know, we take nations names and we slap them on things. And then we forget the nation and we forget the people that were, you know, killed or removed or displaced or colonized. But, you know, our kind of name lives on and takes on this completely other thing that is no longer tied to us. And it's upsetting when we are still here to see that.

CO: This effort now to have these changed, what input will Mi'kmaq have in the decisions of how these places and streets will be renamed?

RT: I'm hoping some, you know, like to rename something municipal or a municipal road you have to get consensus of the people who live on the road or the street. And you know Mi'kmaq people aren't living there -- like this is just to put forward a motion to have a conversation, but not necessarily to actually change those names for sure. I hope it it changes and I hope Mi'kmaq people are consulted. But when it comes to the actual power to change those names, we don't necessarily have a lot.

CO: But the council does, I mean, the city does, and so they can change those names. But what about Micmac Mall?

RT: Now, that's a private organization. So I'm hoping that if the municipality decides to change something, you know, and to set that stance, then I'm hoping Micmac Mall will change as well. Like, you know, there's the Micmac Aquatic Paddle Club, which is on Lake Banook next to Lake Micmac, you know, then there's the Mimac Bar and Grill. So there's lots of private organizations as well. I would love to see them change, but I don't think council can force a private company to change their name.

CO: Well, they've had a lot of opportunities to change it, haven't they?

RT: Yes, they had this kind of multimillion dollar renovation piece that they did and they're working on and they didn't include their signage.

CO: This is Micmac Mall, you mean?

RT: Yes. I mean, Dartmouth used to be called the City of Lakes. You call it, you know, Lake City Shopping Centre. There's lots of things to root it in where it is. And it's really the only mall in that region. So it's not like people are going to forget where it is all of a sudden because the signage has changed.

CO: One of the first things you see as you're coming into Dartmouth is that great big sign.

RT: Yeah. Micmac Mall. Yeah.

CO: Rebecca it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

RT: Thank you so much.

CH: That was the former poet laureate of Halifax, Rebecca Thomas. We reached her in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia.

[Music]

Birmingham pub bombings

Guest: Julie Hambleton

CH: Police have arrested a man in Belfast almost 46 years to the day after the Birmingham pub bombings. On November 21st, 1974, a pair of bombs went off within minutes of each other at two pubs in Birmingham, England. The blasts killed 21 people and injured more than 200. It was the deadliest attack on the British mainland during 30 years of the Northern Ireland conflict. The Irish Republican Army was believed to have planted the bombs but never claimed responsibility. Julie Hambleton's 18 year old sister Maxine, was killed in that attack. We reached Ms. Hambleton in Birmingham. And a warning: some of the details in this conversation are disturbing.

CO: Julie, I know it has been nearly exactly 46 years since your sister was killed. What does this arrest today mean for you?

JULIE HAMBLETON: This is a hugely significant development in terms of what we've been campaigning for all these years. But I have to say, it is a long time in coming. On Saturday, it will be the 46th memorial. 46 years for someone to be arrested for the mass murder of 21 innocent souls and for the attempted murder of over another 200 souls who live with life changing injuries every day. Six men were arrested in 1974 for this crime. And then some 18 years later, in 1991, they were acquitted of the crime. So in reality, what has happened today should actually have happened nearly 30 years ago.

CO: When you were contacted by police, when they informed you, what did you say to them when they told you that they had arrested somebody?

JH: He actually said, we wanted to give you a heads up that we have just arrested a man five minutes ago -- this is how hot off the press it was -- and we wanted to let all the families know prior to us releasing the information to the media so that it didn't come as a surprise to you. And as he was telling me, I broke down. I was inconsolable. I couldn't speak. I couldn't breathe. And I looked directly at a picture of Maxine and I thought, today is about you and the other 20 and it is for you and for the other 20.

CO: Your sister was 18 years old when she died in the bombings. There was no warning, was there? Just to go back to the night itself of November 21st, 1974 -- the IRA had a kind of policy that would give a 30 minute warning before it did set off these bombs. What happened that night that meant so many people were killed?

JH: The IRA have never claimed responsibility for this. But if it was the IRA, they did have a mechanism where they would make a phone call to either a local newspaper or a police station, where they would give a coded message to say this is a bomb warning, there's a bomb planted in such and such, and the code word is 'AAA' or whatever it may have been. But those who committed this heinous crime claim that none of the landlines, the telephone boxes were working, which is hard to believe because just around the corner from the pub where my sister and her friend Jane Davis were killed there were six telephone boxes literally just around the corner.

CO: And your sister was there. Was she with friends that night?

JH: Maxine was quite ahead of her time in lots of respects. She was very intelligent, very creative. She used to make her own clothes. She had just returned from the champagne vineyards in France because she was studying for her A-levels, because she wanted to become a lawyer, of all things. And she wanted to improve her French. So she went to France grape picking with her friend Jane Davis. And they were killed together in the tavern in the town. And Jane was only 17 and they had not long returned. And my sister had moved into a house with two of my brothers, Brian and Paul, and she was having a housewarming party and she designed her own invitations to come to the party. And the party was going to take place the next night on Friday, the 22nd of November, 1974. And my sister and I were going as well. I mean, I was only 11 and my sister Jane was 13. And so Maxine had arranged to meet her friends because she designed their own invitations because back then they didn't have a phone. And that night Brian had said to Maxine, If you are [inaudible], I'll drop you off in town. Well, Maxine wouldn't have done [inaudible] anyway. But Brian has ever since carried the heavy weight that that night he drove our sister to her death because he believes that if he hadn't driven her and she would have caught the bus, she might have missed the bombs. And he has never ever got over that.

CO: Julie, I'm so sorry.

JH: You don't need to apologize, but that's very kind of you to say so. We find out that at the inquest last year that Maxine's injuries -- because my mom IDed Maxine, she was taken to the morgue and she was shown two bodies first, but they were so badly burned and my mom used to be a nurse, so she had had experience in the burns unit. And the last body that they showed her was Maxine's. She couldn't recognize her by her face because it was in the cellar at the pub they had planted, this is how sadistic these killers were, they had planted the bomb underneath the stairs. So obviously it would blow away the stairs so there was no escape.

CO: You were just 11 years old at the time.

JH: I was.

CO: And so you have spent decades of your life wanting to see someone brought to justice for this. The Birmingham Six, as they're known, six men who were convicted, wrongly convicted, spent years in prison for that. And in addition to knowing the identity of the person, he's been arrested or there has been arrests and we don't know yet. Is there an identity known of who the person is?

JH: No, no. We've been told what the press have been told, which is that they've arrested a 65 year old man in Belfast. And that's all that we've been told.

CO: What is the biggest question, beyond knowing who did this to your sister and to the others, what's the most burning question you want answered?

JH: This was the biggest loss of life of England's history in the 20th century in peacetime. So there is no one question. But from the inquest last year, it left far more questions than it provided answers for. And that's because the chief coroner, Sir Peter Thornton, limited the scope of the inquest so tightly that all that came out is what we already know. So that's why we are now fighting for a public inquiry, because a public inquiry provides a methodology that an inquest doesn't offer.

CO: Julie, I hope you get the answers at some point to all the questions you have about what happened that night to your sister. And I appreciate that you would speak with us tonight. Thank you.

JH: Thank you very much for inviting me. Thank you.

CH: Julie Hambleton's 18-year-old sister, Maxine, was one of 21 people killed in the Birmingham pub bombings in 1974. Ms. Hambleton was in Birmingham, England. Days after the attack, vigilantes retaliated by firebombing Irish pubs in the city. One of those pubs was the College Arms. Barbara Frum dialed up the pub on November 25th, 1974, to see who she might reach.

VOICE 1: Hello?

BARBARA FRUM: Is that the College Arms?

VOICE 1: Yes.

BARBARA FRUM: I'm calling from Canada. Can I speak to the landlord?

VOICE 2: Hello, it's the manager speaking.

BARBARA FRUM: Mr. McDonald?

VOICE 2: Speaking.

BARBARA FRUM: We're calling from Canada. My name is Barbara Frum.

VOICE 2: Yes.

BARBARA FRUM: We want to know what it's been like in Birmingham over the past few days.

VOICE 2: Oh, it's been fairly rough here over the past few days.

BARBARA FRUM: What's happened to you personally?

VOICE 2: I had my smoke room blown up by petrol bombs.

BARBARA FRUM: Who do you think did it?

VOICE 2: I have not got a clue. We need to have the police.

BARBARA FRUM: Have you had to close your place?

VOICE 2: Only one room. We have opened the rest of the pub.

BARBARA FRUM: Why do you think they went for you?

VOICE 2: [Inaudible]

BARBARA FRUM: Are you Irish, Mr. McDonald?

VOICE 2: Oh, I'm Irish yes.

BARBARA FRUM: What do you think of the bombings last week in Birmingham that killed so many?

VOICE 2: I think it's deplorable.

BARBARA FRUM: Would you like to see a clamp down on the IRA in Britain?

VOICE 2: I certainly would, yes.

CH: Former As It Happens host, Barbara Frum, speaking to an Irish pub owner in Birmingham, England in 1974. Before today's arrest, six Irishmen spent 17 years behind bars for the crime. The wrongful conviction of the Birmingham six is considered one of Britain's worst miscarriages of justice.

[Music]

Part 2: Ethiopia government

Ethiopia government

Guest: Billene Seyoum

CH: Last year, Abiy Ahmed won the Nobel Prize for making peace. Now the Ethiopian prime minister is leading a military offensive. For weeks, the Ethiopian military has been pushing into the northern Tigray region. The local government, the Tigray People's Liberation Front, was accused of attacking federal troops and defying the national government. Tens of thousands of civilians have now fled into neighbouring Sudan, creating what aid groups have called a full scale humanitarian crisis. Billene Seyoum is Prime Minister Abiy's press secretary. We reached her in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.

CO: Ms. Seyoum, yesterday Prime Minister Abiy announced a final and crucial military operation in Tigray. Are you now claiming victory?

BILLENE SEYOUM: Well, I mean, this is not really an issue of claiming victory or not, because the main issue of this intervention has been to ensure the rule of law and the primacy of the rule of law. So where the federal government is mandated and the Ethiopian prime minister is also mandated by the constitution to enforce the rule of law throughout the country, it's a task that he has to fully finalize to its completion.

CO: So you're not finished with this military offensive?

BILLENE SEYOUM: Not yet, because now the forces as of yesterday have controlled a lot of cities and towns within the vicinity of the main capital of the region, which is Mekelle City. And they are expected to advance even closer to Mekelle City since yesterday.

CO: But the Tigray People's Liberation Front does not agree with your assessment that this is near and end. And in fact, they have stated that Tigray is now hell to its enemies and they've claimed remarkable victories against your forces. Are you being a bit optimistic in your assessment?

BILLENE SEYOUM: Not at all, because I think the Ethiopian people have been used to for the past 27-28 years of the TPL-left having conflicting narratives and propagating their own propaganda for the international community and the national community as well.

CO: It's difficult to independently confirm what you're saying, since there has been a cut off of communication from the region. We spoke with the UN representative for Ethiopia yesterday who said this is really difficult for them, that they can't get information, that you're not allowing a flow of information about what's going on there so that they can actually start helping civilians. Why have you cut off communications?

BILLENE SEYOUM: Communication has not been cut off by the federal government and it has been indicated already early on when I mean, in fact, earlier this week, a senior TPLF leader did give testimony to the fact that the Tigray People's Liberation Front are the ones that took surprise attacks against the National Defense Forces. So for them to be able to do this in the middle of the night against their own peers, they also did damage to infrastructure and particularly communication infrastructure as well.

CO: Then that's not been clear to the U.N. who are very concerned that civilians in Tigray are without food, without fuel, lacking water, and that there's tens of thousands of them who are now leaving the country and heading into Sudan. What are you doing in order to help U.N. and other agencies assist the civilians who are caught between your two forces?

BILLENE SEYOUM: I think, Carol, it's not what the federal government is doing to help the U.N. agencies, because primarily these citizens are citizens of Ethiopia. So the federal government is helping its own people. So it's a priority for the federal government to take care of its own. It's unfortunate that these are the circumstances that we've been led into by the TPLF. And with regards to what the federal government is doing in order to protect its own citizens -- number one, if you've just been following the prime minister's statements, there has been an open call for everybody that has fled to the other side to come back into the areas that are under the command of the National Defense Forces. And by doing that, there has been a vow to ensure their properties are safe from any destruction, to ensure their peace and stability.

CO: How can they go back? If you can't confirm that the military operation is finished yet. I mean, people don't leave home unless they have to. And if they are in Sudan with very little, according to the United Nations, they're there because they fear returning. And if you can't confirm that you have finished this military operation and it's safe for them, why would they return?

BILLENE SEYOUM: But Carol there's a lot of military operations that have been finalized in a lot of areas that are under the command of the federal forces. The provisional administration has already gone into task. And with regards to setting up some of the towns that have been liberated already. Now, the only final place that remains for a military intervention is in Mekelle, where the TPLF perpetrators are hiding and utilizing their citizens and trapping their citizens as human shields to shield them from there.

CO: Once these things begin, as you know, once you have casualties, you have territory being disputed, it's very difficult to stop these kinds of things. And this is why the International Crisis Group is urging you to have a ceasefire and talks with the TPLF and try and resolve this as best as possible through negotiations. That continuing military operation is only going to end with more casualties and less likely to end in peace. Why don't you pursue some kind of negotiations with the TPLF?

BILLENE SEYOUM: I think, Carol, it's really important to explore this narrative of negotiation that's being perpetrated by people TPLF for the international community, because when they're talking to the local community, they're not talking about negotiation. I don't think any government in any part of the world, and particularly even where you are in federal government, if one of the counties or one of the states have an armed rebellion and an administration that has gone rogue, attacking its own national defense forces, the first priority is to ensure that they're disarmed. The first priority is to ensure that you are able to maintain peace and security. Now, they took over and attacked one of the largest commands of the National Defense Forces. So how does the federal government, the sitting federal government, that is constitutionally mandated to bring rule of law to this country, that is constitutionally mandated to govern, sit and negotiate with those that have gone rogue and attacked its own Northern Command, part of the National Defense Forces -- have acquired a lot of arms and artillery that they could use to retaliate, and they have vowed to retaliate against the capital as well.

CO: You know that last year, Abiy Ahmed, your prime minister, won the Nobel Peace Prize because of advocating peace with Eritrea. Do you think he is living up to his reputation as a man of peace in the midst of this brutal fighting?

BILLENE SEYOUM: He is. And I think a greater majority of Ethiopian people do applaud that. I don't think the weight of the Nobel Peace Prize needs to deter any Nobel awardee from taking rule of law measures within their country in the best interests of their country. This is being touted internationally as a shame that has come upon him. But that's not the case. I don't think any sitting prime minister, whether he has a Nobel Peace Prize or not, is not going to sit in Kumbayah and expect things to magically appear. Sometimes there has to be certain responses. And again, the attack was on the National Defense Forces. It's not something that the prime minister triggered by himself.

CO: We'll be watching. Ms. Seyoum thank you.

BILLENE SEYOUM: Thank you very much Carol.

CH: Billene Seyoum is the press secretary for Ethiopian Prime Minister Abiy Ahmed. We reached her in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.

[Music]

Smells of my childhood

CH: Sometimes a smell can conjure a memory so powerful it brings you to your knees. And sometimes hearing people talking about smells can conjure memories that send you to your phone. Yesterday, we spoke with historian William Tullett. He told us about his project, Odeuropa, that will use science and artificial intelligence to recreate the smells of Europe from the 16th century to the 20th century. Well, one As It Happens listener can't tell us what Europe smelled like hundreds of years ago. But she called Talkback to tell us exactly what smell was wafting through the air when she was a little girl on the Alps in Austria.

MARIA: Hello, my name is Maria, I'm calling from (Port) Belmont, British Columbia. I also grew up in Europe in the 60s and 70s. Precisely, I spent the summers of my childhood on a mountain hut, on a farm mountain hut. And many many years later, I recalled the smells of my childhood there in a poem, and I thought I might as well share it with you. [Reading] "Smells of my childhood." The smells of my childhood are preserved, they are still with me today. How the mind can do this trick, I'm unable to say. The fragrance of the mountain had nourishing buttermilk, sweet whey mixed with the scent of pine pitch, fresh bread cooling on the tray. The distinctive aroma of kimberlites steaming in a pan, an ancient gift from nature since life on Earth began, a pleasant perfume of newly harvested hay, arnica drying its odors quite strong. A bit of mountain ash berries fermenting in barrels later made into schnaps, winter season is long. And just as some stars are still shining for us, even though they no longer exist, remembering these smells means recalling the past, helps to open the curtain of mist.

CH: Thank you for that beautiful poem Maria, and for taking our noses back in time. Now we'd love to hear what kind of smells you grew up with, whether you live next to a field of fragrant plants or a sewage plant: email us at: aih@cbc.ca or call Talkback at: 416-205-5687. And for more on our story about Odeuropa, visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Rockefeller X-mas tree

Guest: Paula Dick

CH: Of all the Christmas trees and all the town squares across the United States, the Rockefeller Centre Christmas tree is the belle of the ball. Every year, organizers scour tree farms to find the perfect tree to adorn the midtown Manhattan space, which draws tourists and television coverage every year. But when this year's 75 foot Norway Spruce arrived to take centre stage, there was snickering, then guffaws and now Internet shame. The tree, as one person commented on Twitter, looks like it tried to cut its own hair. It's lopsided, seems to be balding in parts and looks distressingly like a lot of us feel. Paula Dick has a long relationship with the tree in question. It grew in her yard in Oneonta, New York. That's where we reached.

CO: Paula I've got to say that in the pictures I've seen, this tree does look a bit lopsided and sad. How did it look when it was in the yard?

PAULA DICK: The tree is absolutely beautiful. I was at the tree cutting and they took pictures of it as they had -- the tree has been wrapped almost a week or so. So when they got it down to New York City and that, they had just started to unwrap it and the bottom branches in that, you know, come down. And that's what everybody took the picture off.

CO: And so the before and after pictures, the ones before it made its journey to New York City and and then afterwards, it's kind of night and day, isn't it?

PD: Yeah. You know, if you look closely to the picture, you can see the tree isn't even completely unwrapped. It's still wrapped, the picture that everybody took. It was just the bottom branches. They had just unhooked the bottom branches. So if you go get a real Christmas tree, like at a Christmas tree farm or here we go to like Home Depot and they are wrapped, everybody knows you take it home, you unwrap it, and it takes a couple of days for the tree to come down and fully go back to its original form. So I have absolutely no doubts whatsoever that it will be gorgeous when they are done with it. It is just going to take a couple of days.

CO: And so it'll come down a bit. And then I guess the decorations will help it transform into the Cinderella of the ball.

PD: Oh, you know, just like this year, in the starting the tree looks a little rough, but it's going to end out beautiful.

CO: Five miles of lights are going to go on that tree, right?

PD: Yes, that is correct. That is what I was told.

CO: And what else does it need? If you could decorate a 75 foot tree, what does it need?

PD: You know what? I think the lights they are going to put on it is all that tree is going to need. I really do. I saw the pictures of it and I was like, it's not even unwrapped yet. But you know what? I enjoy reading everybody's comments and watching them on Tiktok and that. You just wait. When that tree is done, it's going to be beautiful.

CO: The comments are a bit brutal. I am just going to read some of them. One of them is "Charlie Brown: I have the saddest Christmas tree. Rockefeller Centre: Hold my beer." Okay that's one. And the other one "2020 Rockefeller Centre Christmas tree looks like 2020 feels." [Laughter] And so lots of people like that. Someone else said "All 2020 Christmas trees should be Charlie Brown trees, every dang one. I wouldn't have it any other way. And then on New Year's Eve, we can light them on fire and pretend none of this ever happened." [Laughter]

PD: Those are funny. [Laughter]

CO: So I guess the idea that really it shouldn't be a nice looking tree, it should look like the rest of the year.

PD: No, it's going to be beautiful. Like I said, the pictures they took, it's not even unwrapped yet. They just look like a little snip of it. I mean, when I was there, I saw the pictures of it and I was like, they just unhooked the bottom branches. But you know what? I'm glad everybody's having a good time making the Tiktoks and the comments and that, you know what, I'm okay with that, because I know in the end it's got to be pretty.

CO: You're being very gracious about this. When you have all these Manhattanites mocking the pride of Oneonta right here -- I mean, doesn't that hurt?

PD: No. You know what? I've had this tree out in my yard, I know what it is. And you know what, it's okay. You know what? If they're having a good time mocking it, go ahead. Because when they see it all lit up when it's all done, they're going to be like, oh...it's okay.

CO: 75 feet tall. How long did that take to grow?

PD: I do believe they're estimating between 75 and 85 year.

CO: So that tree has been in your yard for a long time, you've grown up with it?

PD: No, actually, I bought the house about six or so years ago.

CO: Did you ever think that that tree that was in the yard, would one day be the Rockefeller Centre tree?

PD: Absolutely not. That never crossed my mind until the head Rockefeller Centre guy stopped by and he went to my father's store, which is Daddy Al's General Store. And he said, you have a nice tree in your yard. And my dad was like, thank you. And he was like, want to donate that to Rockefeller Centre? And my dad's like, sure. There's not a lot of times in your life that you can spread joy to so many people.

CO: And then they all go about laughing at the tree when it gets to Manhattan.

PD: You know what? It's okay.

CO: How does your dad feel about that?

PD: I think some of the comments are funny. You know what, people have a lot of imagination in some of it. You know, it's funny. You know, it's really funny. I've been watching them and I'm like, yes it's okay. [Chuckles]

CO: Well, I saw a video of that tree being hauled on the long trailer truck. And so, yes, it's been on a long journey and it needs to rest, I would think.

PD: You know what? When they had got me to bring it to New York City, that tree had been tied for almost a week. Like I said, if you look closer, if you look a little bit closer to the picture, you can see that the branches and all that were still wrapped. And Rockefeller Centre knows what they're doing.

CO: All right. It is scheduled December the 2nd at 7:00 p.m.. I know that tree is going to light up Rockefeller Centre.

PD: You betcha. And I will be there to see it along with my dad and my family. And I'm very excited.

CO: Paula it's great to talk to you. Thanks.

PD: All right. Thank you.

CH: Paula Dick donated the much maligned 75 foot tall spruce tree that's been unveiled in Rockefeller Centre in New York City. We reached her in Oneonta, New York.

[Music]

Super Spread

CH: In the U.S., Thanksgiving is right around the corner, so the head honchos at giant supermarkets needed an advertising campaign that would say we have a lot of food for sale -- but, you know, better. So they hired the top ad guy at the local agency. Thanksgiving is a time of harvest, he told them, time aplenty, cornucopias and whatever. So your slogan needs to tell your customers you have a vast bounty of food items and it needs to have alliteration. And we've come up with something that's simple and powerful and it's got two S-words in a row. Fantastic, the head honcho said, put this in full page ads in all the local papers, it's the perfect combination of words for Thanksgiving 2020. Fast forward to yesterday when giant supermarkets tweeted this did not come across as we intended, this was an oversight on our team's part and we apologize. Now, looking back, they probably should have given the ad a bit more thought. Not the picture, the picture's great: a fruit tart, a celebratory cheese board, a giant shrimp platter. No, the problem is really the text. If only they'd remembered we were in the middle of a pandemic, they probably wouldn't have approved the slogan "Hosting? Plan a super spread."

[Music]

Update: Serrece Winter

CH: Serrece Winter finally got some good news today. Last week, we told you about the Nova Scotia woman, she was thrown in jail after refusing to testify against her ex-partner in his domestic assault case. Then officers strapped her into a chair. It was Ms. Winter who ended up charged over the incident in the police station with assaulting a peace officer. Today, after the premier said he hoped the justice system would show more compassion toward people like Serrece Winter, the Crown dropped that charge. The Crown said it was not in the public interest to proceed, even though there was a reasonable chance of conviction. Serrece Winter spoke with CBC reporter Elizabeth Chiu today.

ELIZABETH CHIU: How are you feeling?

SERRECE WINTER: Relieved, but I'm also disappointed in the wording that they used. From watching the video and just from my experience on the witness warrant, I felt like the police were purposely antagonistical and that they were actually trying to create a situation of hostility where violence would occur. And then they dragged in their seven other little bullies to make the situation worse. And I think from watching the video, it shows that they lack basic compassion. And I feel like it sends the wrong message to the officers. I don't feel like you should be antagonizing people and tell something bad happens and then claiming that you're assaulted when quite simply put, looking at the video, I still would like the police charged with assault themselves because I feel that they are the ones who committed an assault.

ELIZABETH CHIU: Did you feel that it was even possible that this assault charge would be withdrawn?

SERRECE WINTER: I never thought -- I didn't think it would go away, but I was reasonably sure that fighting it was still the thing to do, even though I've been under conditions since this charge happened. So certainly it has affected my life and I've been leery of trying to return to different types of work because who wants to tell them that you've got an upcoming trial for assaulting a peace officer and then try to get into the logistics on how that happened? Because all people are going to hear is, oh, that person was charged with assaulting a peace officer, I don't want them working for me because I'm afraid they might assault one of my employees. Like, I feel like I had a sentence even though I had no sentence.

ELIZABETH CHIU: How does it make you feel personally, though, to know that this weight is lifted off your shoulders?

SERRECE WINTER: It's a big relief, but I'm not sure if I'm ever going to stop being afraid of the sirens. But it's a big relief to know that I don't have to wait until June to decide what my fate is going to be while they run around making a mockery of the system. And it's a special concern that the premier actually paid attention to that. I'm grateful that he intervened. I certainly hope that nobody else has to get to this point. But I'm really grateful that somebody did something about it.

ELIZABETH CHIU: What do you hope other women, other victims of domestic violence will take away from your story?

SERRECE WINTER: Hopefully not the bad parts, but hopefully that you have the right to stick up for yourself, that you have the right to live in a safe home, and you have the right to be believed by the people in charge of providing support. And if all those things fall into place properly, then you'll have an outcome much better. Just keep telling your story until someone believes you.

CH: That was Serrece Winter speaking with CBC reporter Elizabeth Chiu.

[Music]

Part 3: Good with faces? This test will tell you if you're a 'super-recognizer'

Val-d'Or caribou

Guest: Genevieve Tremblay

CH: They're down to just six. The herd of Boreal woodland caribou used to roam the forests surrounding Val-d'Or in western Quebec. Now, the final few of the threatened caribou are kept in an enclosed pen, a move by the Quebec government to try to save the animals. But since they were confined in the spring, nothing more has been done. Members of the Council of the Anishinaabe Nation of Lac Simon believe it's not too late. They commissioned an independent scientific report on how to save the Boreal woodland caribou. Genevieve Tremblay is a biologist with the Council of the Anishinaabe Nation of Lac Simon.

CO: Genevieve, first of all, what kind of condition do you understand that those final six caribou are in?

GENEVIEVE TREMBLAY: Well, at that time they are being kept in an enclosure in the forest so that they are protected from the predators. But it's not a suitable habitat and it's certainly not a conservation strategy.

CO: And you have hope that you can recover them, that there's something that can be done to save them?

GT: There are certainly things that can be done to save them, but it would take the courage to do those things because it's been now 40 or 50 years that we basically destroyed their habitat.

CO: How large was this herd before it dwindled down to these numbers? 40 or 50 years ago how many of these caribou were there?

GT: I think the first inventory was around 80 caribou. But I guess the first time that a ministry decided to go for an inventory of the population, maybe it's because they already knew that the population was going down. So it's hard to know.

CO: It was a pretty healthy sized herd of Boreal woodland caribou then?

GT: Well, our elders are remembering times where their fathers and grandfathers were hunting them. So I guess there was a healthy population at that time.

CO: There's a new report from the Council of the Anishinaabe Nation of Lac Simon. What are they saying? What hope do you have in that report that you might be able to help these caribou?

GT: Well, their report was produced by a pretty well renowned researcher. So we hope that with scientific advice that he provides, we can go forward and do this and the things that must be done to restore the habitat and eventually rehabilitate that population.

CO: And can you tell us some of the recommendations they have for saving that herd?

GT: The researcher outlined specific portion of the territory that should be a first interest in the restoration. He also outlined a big area called the Essential Habitat, that is about 12,000 square kilometre that we should protect and let the forest regrow to provide good habitat for the population. And by now, that small territory that's been of interest for the government is only 2000 square kilometre. It should be six times bigger for now.

CO: There are a number of roads through the area as well. What effect does that have on the herd?

GT: The habitat is, on balance in favor of the predator because it is avoided by the caribou, the woodland caribou, and it is really being seeked by the gray wolves. And because it's really easier for them to move big distance really quick, it allows the wolves to be more efficient at hunting their prey. And it could be moose, but it also could be caribou.

CO: Does the report recommend that there should be a reduction of those predators in order to help the caribou herd?

GT: Yeah, the researcher also recommend that there should be an intermediate measure to reduce the wolf population until the habitat (has) enough restores so it can support the self-sufficient population. He also recommend to translocate and reintroduce individual caribou coming from other healthier herds to boost up the population, because at that time we only have three females left. Even genetically speaking, it's not possible to rehabilitate the viable population with only three.

CO: So they are in an enclosure, the caribou right now, they're penned in. That wasn't the plan, though. So what was supposed to have happened at this point to help those caribou to increase their numbers?

GT: Well, it's hard to tell. It's been decades that we should do better protection, that we should close forestry road, that we should let the forest regrow. But we didn't do it. And I think when the last official inventory last winter was conducted and the ministry responsible in Quebec happened to know that there were only seven caribou at that time, they felt they needed to put in place really special action to save them. But the problem is they are not laying down any other plan for now other than keeping them in the pen. And as I said, it's not a conservative strategy. I mean, we have to put something else together so that we rehabilitate that population otherwise it is just putting them in that pen and looking and looking at them dying one after the other.

CO: Why do you think there's no political will, I suppose, in Quebec to try and help that population of caribou?

GT: We would have to ask them to Quebec government because it has to do with forestry industry and also public user of the land, especially the hunters.

GT: What does that herd mean? What do the caribou mean to the people of Lac Simon? What do they represent?

GT: The caribou in Anishinaabe is called Adik. And as I said, our elders remember a time where they could hunt and eat Adik, but they also are conscious that these days it's just not possible to hunt some more. And the few elders that we could speak about Adik, they they told us they were very sad to know that maybe even their grandchild will never get the chance to hunt them again on their ancestral territory.

CO: Genevieve, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

GT: Okay thank you.

CH: Genevieve Tremblay is a biologist with the Council of the Anishinaabe of Lac Simon. She was in Lac Simon, Quebec.

[Music]

Common Pochard

CH: It's usually kids who get excited about ducks in a park. Grownups have long since realized the ducks are commonplace waddling opportunists. But in Victoria, B.C., grown up birders are getting very excited about a duck -- flocking to a park to get a glimpse of what's believed to be a common pochard, which, despite its name, is not at all common to the area. Birder, Ann Nightingale, described the creature to the CBC this morning.

ANN NIGHTINGALE: It's a bird that looks very, very, very similar to a duck that we normally have here called the canvasback. And in fact, this particular bird was identified by birders as a canvasback several days before Jody Wells discovered that it wasn't that -- in fact, it was a pochard.

GREGOR CRAIGIE: Okay, and so I'm looking at a picture of the pochard. It's got striking red eyes. Can you describe it for us?

ANN NIGHTINGALE: It's a large duck, you know, a pretty good sized duck. And it has a redhead, gray back, white sides or whitish sides, and a swooping fairly large black bill. But what is really striking about it is that across that black bill is a bright blue patch that is in the pochard quite solid. And there is a possibility of canvasbacks and redheads, which are also similar looking birds to hybridize -- and those birds will have a bluish tinge to their bill. But it's this blue saddle that really is striking about it.

GREGOR CRAIGIE: Okay, so where does it usually live?

ANN NIGHTINGALE: It usually lives in Europe and Asia, but in the wintertime can migrate south as far as Japan. So it's probably a bird that moved well -- and South Asia, actually -- it's probably a bird that came across during its migration towards the coast.

GREGOR CRAIGIE: And this is a first sighting, what, on Vancouver Island, in Canada, what is the record here?

ANN NIGHTINGALE: First sighting in British Columbia for sure. And possibly assuming it gets accepted by the records committees, would be the first official sighting in Canada, although in 2008 there was one in Quebec. The problem is that some people keep waterfowl as pets. And so there's always a concern about is this an escaped bird or released bird? And so Quebec when they couldn't decide, so it's not on the official record books yet.

GREGOR CRAIGIE: So in the meantime, how excited are birders to see this bird here in Victoria?

ANN NIGHTINGALE: Very excited to see this bird. There's only been a handful of records in North America, south of Alaska. Alaska has several. But in terms of south of that very very few records. A lot of birders keep what they call a life list, where they're keeping track of all the birds they've seen in their life, sometimes by area -- so by Vancouver Island or British Columbia or Canada, North America. And so, you know, it's a situation where a lot of birders are coming to see this bird so they can add it to their list.

GREGOR CRAIGIE: And is this locals or are people coming from further afield? Are people taking the ferry to come see this rare bird?

ANN NIGHTINGALE: Well, you've got a bit of controversy, haven't you? So we certainly have had people from up island. And on the first day after it was reported when I was there, there were folks from Vancouver. And this is a problem with the COVID restrictions. Certainly we're not seeing people fly in the way that we would be if there were not COVID restrictions and a closed border. But certainly some people did come over from Vancouver.

CH: I'm sorry, birders. I meant the common pochard before. That was Ann Nightingale speaking with the CBC's Gregor Craigie, host of On the Coast. Ms. Nightingale is a birder and a volunteer at the Rocky Point Bird Observatory.

[Music]

Super recognizers

Guest: James Dunn

CH: Face it, most of us aren't always great at remembering faces. We know all too well those deeply cringey encounters when someone walks up to you smiling in recognition, but you have no idea who they are, or maybe you were happy to see someone who appears to have no recollection of you at all. It keeps you grounded. Well, it turns out a small handful of people have only ever been on one side of that equation because they're able to remember faces with near perfect recall. And now researchers at the University of New South Wales say they've developed a test that can identify these so-called super recognizers with similar precision. James Dunn is a cognitive psychologist at the University of New South Wales and one of the study's coauthors. We reached him in Sydney, Australia.

CO: James, we all know people who claim that they never forget a face. It's actually true, isn't it?

JAMES DUNN: There are some people who are very gifted at face recognition -- they do forget some faces, but they do remember a lot more than the average person.

CO: Now, this test that you did you want to establish, what were you hoping to learn with this study?

JD: Well, one of those things we had seen in the past is when we gave the existing tests out there to super recognizers, it wasn't that uncommon for them to get 100 percent. And that was a limitation because we never got to see the full extent of their abilities. Like we know they don't remember every face that they see and they are not perfect. So we really wanted to see what is the full extent of their ability? Just how good can some of these people be? So that's why we set out to make a more challenging test to measure the ability of super recognizers.

CO: If I were to sit down and do it -- and I didn't, but someone in the office did just to try it out. how do you test people to see if you can determine super recognizers?

JD: So we give people photographs to remember, we only give them a few seconds to look at each one. They have to end up remembering or recognizing around about 80 faces by the end of the test. And they start off just looking at some photographs and then having to recognize them in photos where they may have changed in their appearance quite dramatically because there might be a few years older or younger, or they might just be in really poor lighting conditions or quite varied expressions. So in the first part, you look at some faces to remember, then you're asked to try and recognize them in some different photos and you're going to say, yes, I saw that person just before or not. Then in the second part of the test, you do a similar thing, except that instead of just saying yes or no to one photo, you actually are given four different photos and you have to decide if any of those matched the person you just saw.

CO: I understand it is a really hard test to do. So how did super recognizers, how did they do in the test?

JD: Yes. So just for context, the average person on our test will score just under 60 percent. To be a super recognizer on our test, the threshold is about 70 percent. So you need to score over 70 percent to be a super recognizer. Now, that said, so far we've had over 31,000 people do the test and no one has actually got 100 percent yet. So we know that we haven't fully found the perfect recognizer out there. And in fact, just 11 people have scored over 90 percent on the test. We know it is a very hard task.

CO: At the same time, though, when people sit down to do the test, they know they're being tested. So it's not the same thing as people who just can go and see somebody in a room or meet them at an engagement or see them anywhere, and then 10 years later, remember that they saw them. I mean, people know that they're going to be tested, right?

JD: People do know they're going to be tested and we do see some influence of that, people are willing to try harder. And we do know that in real life, super recognizers seem to be doing this process kind of automatically, they're engaging and remembering the faces of the people around them. So there is a contrast there between what happens in the real world and our test. And that's just the result of what we have to do in order to make sure these people are as good as they say they are. We have to put some constraints on their ability. There are other tests out there that will look at people they're already familiar with and say, how many of these can you recognize on the challenging conditions, like in baby photos or something like that?

CO: And so people would actually look at baby photos and be able to tell -- or child photos and then see them as adults?

JD: Yeah, that's right. There was one test I know of that you can look at a lot of celebrities as babies well before they were famous, and you have to try and recognize what celebrities those ones are.

CO: Now, this kind of a talent or an ability, what does it reinforce? I mean, why would biologically some people have this ability? What would be the advantage for them?

JD: It's a really interesting question. So we know that face recognition has dedicated brain structures associated with it. And this just demonstrates to us just how important and socially relevant faces are. We not only extract identity, but expression information. We also gauge social threat cues from faces as well. And so it's not that surprising that way that we have all this infrastructure in our head for recognizing people. Now, what we're finding is that just like other cognitive abilities, like intelligence or personality characteristics, face recognition also seem to be a skill that is passed on in your genes that varies just from person to person as well.

CO: Do people who have this -- once people you identified as super recognizers from the study, what do they think of their ability? I mean, are they making use of it or is it a party trick that they can impress people with?

JD: It's a bit of both. People do, when we speak to them or I guess the ones we talked to are very happy, they love having this unique ability. Now especially that they've done our test and found out they actually are recognized and learned a little bit more about it, they've been quite open with the friends and family just kind of being their go-to recognizer. So it's not uncommon for, hey, that person looks familiar -- where do we know them from? I know that some people also say they have to lie about recognizing people because it might come across as a little bit creepy if I say, oh, I have met you, we were in the same line at the supermarket just three days ago. People might look into that a bit weird, they don't really understand.

CO: And those super recognizers, when they can't place somebody, they just can't recognize them, how frustrating is that?

JD: Oh, they say it's one of the worst things. Honestly, they get very frustrated. And we find that quite fascinating. I know I do get frustrated I can't place the person, but it sounds like to them that it bothers them so much more if they can't figure out where a person's from. I've heard stories from a super recognizer that they were about to go on a trip and spotted someone at the airport, couldn't remember where that person was from, and basically spent the first couple of weeks of their trip trying to figure it out until it finally dawned on them why that person was familiar.

CO: All right, James, we'll leave it there. Thank you.

JD: Thank you.

CH: James Dunn is one of the researchers behind the University of New South Wales's face test. We reached him in Sydney, Australia.

[Music]

Santa

CH: Newfoundland has deemed him an essential worker, but his work, like everyone else's, is very different this year. Santa Claus is still punching the clock at Avalon Mall in St. John's, for example. But kids can no longer sit on Santa's lap or get very close to Santa at all. In fact, he looks a bit more like a red and white clad inmate than old St. Nick. This year, kids have to relay their wish list to Santa through two panes of Plexiglas -- that's also made taking photos with Santa a bit of a challenge, but Bruce Lee is up for it. No, not that Bruce Lee. Mr. Lee has been Santa's official photographer for the past 20 years at the Avalon Mall in St. John's.

BRUCE LEE: This was a kind of the learning as we went. The administration plus us plus the engineering people tried to figure it out as we go because it's never been done before. So we're kind of setting a standard as long as we can stay safe because of the distance we got to have the wide angle shot, people got to be six feet away from Santa Claus, you don't sit on Santa Claus lap. It's a big difference. But people are very understanding.

MEG ROBERTS: What are you hearing and seeing from kids when they come onto the set? Obviously, they can't sit on Santa's lap this year.

BRUCE LEE: No, the parents got to be very vigilant because the nature of the child is to run toward Santa because they've been doing it every year. So we got to be careful and we're getting a lot of the bugs out of it. But everybody's on guard to make sure that, you know, you don't have this full on contact. Children just naturally go to Santa. So we're careful in watching, and parents understand. Parents are really glad that we're here. That's the first thing they say, 'Oh my God, you're here this year. We were so worried.' People are just really glad that there's some place they can go and get that picture of Santa Claus that they continuously get for years and years. So if you stop it suddenly, they're just so disappointed if they don't get that Santa Claus picture. Some people are asking, can we leave our masks on? Because we say once you sit down and everything is settled, you can remove your mask because of COVID the memory of it is so odd that they'd like to leave their masks on.

MEG ROBERTS: What do you think Santa Claus pictures do for the spirit of Christmas?

BRUCE LEE: Well, it's becomes a part of their tradition. That's the main thing. They come, they maybe go see a movie, they do their shopping, get the children all dressed up so beautiful and they get that picture that goes on their mantle. And Santa leaves positive reinforcement, like 'go to bed early, listen to your parents, be good to your brothers and sisters.' So all those reinforcements. We'll hear the moms and dads going, 'what does Santa say to you? Santa says you got to go to bed or listen or, you know, be good generally.' It's certainly different for all of us -- the staff. We're so used to, you know, just everybody sitting with Santa -- that's the big thing. Now, you know, you've got Santa is over and he's waving, he's putting your name in the book, but there's no hugs -- that's the big one. Because even adults like to get a hug from Santa, the teenagers. So no hugs, that's the biggest disappointment. But he is there, at least he's there.

CH: That was Bruce Lee, the Santa photographer, speaking with the CBC's Meg Roberts in St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador this week.

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November 18, 2020 Episode Transcript

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