As It Happens

October 06, 2020 Episode Transcript


The AIH Transcript for October 6, 2020

[host]Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden[/host]


CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off. 

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens. 

[Music: Theme] 

CH: Tonight:

CO: Boiling over. A suspicious fire ignites further tensions between Indigenous and non-Indigenous people who fish for lobster in Nova Scotia.


CH: Last chance. After a deal to save an oil refinery in Newfoundland and Labrador falls through, the mayor of a nearby town says workers are still holding out hope for a lifeline. 


CO: A long way to go. An Ontario judge considers the case of six women from a fly-in community — and delivers a judgment that indicts a provincial justice system that has failed Indigenous people in the north.


CH: Watershed moment. New barriers in Venice have successfully staved off the dreaded "acqua alta" floods — and the city's relieved Deputy Mayor says that's a historic event. 


CO: Signs of the times. Billboards featuring the faces of people wanted by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement appear in a battleground state — which a former ICE staffer says is blatantly political, and potentially dangerous. 


CH: And… You've got male. If you found the music under that video of U.S. President Donald Trump returning to the White House grandiose and masculine, we'll unmask it: it's from an album called "Epic Male Songs".


CO: "As It Happens", the Tuesday edition. Radio that wishes he'd put the "mask" in "masculine".


[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Nova Scotia Commercial Fisherman, Ontario sentence ruling, Venice flooding prevention


Nova Scotia commercial fisherman

Guest: Colin Sproul

CH: Tension was already running high between Indigenous and non-Indigenous lobster fishermen in Nova Scotia. It started when Mi'kmaq communities launched their own out-of-season harvest, asserting their right to a "moderate livelihood" outside of the commercial fishery. And then, yesterday, a suspicious fire destroyed the boat of Mi'kmaq fisherman Robert Syliboy in Comeauville, Nova Scotia. Mr. Syliboy has been taking part in the out-of-season harvest. He spoke to the CBC's Nic Meloney.

ROBERT SYLIBOY: I woke up to call. My buddy asked if I had a boat out at the Comeauville wharf? I said, yes, I do. He said he thinks my boat is on fire. I've been waiting to hear back from the police if they're going to have video footage or something. They said they're trying to acquire some.

NIC MELONEY: Any indication, threats about any of this? You know, what's your kind of reaction to this whole thing?


RS: Honestly, my boat was on, like, not my profile picture, but my wallpaper or whatever, like, on my Facebook. I don't know who the hell did this. I have people hateful commenting all the time, so I really don't know. I can't point a finger.


CH: That was Indigenous lobster fisherman Robert Syliboy talking about the fire that destroyed his boat yesterday in Comeauville, Nova Scotia. It is not yet clear if the fire was set because of the ongoing dispute between Indigenous and non-Indigenous fishermen. Colin Sproul is a non-Indigenous commercial lobster fisherman who works with the Fundy Inshore Fishermen's Association. We reached him in Digby, Nova Scotia.

CO: Mr. Sproul, we don't yet know the cause of this boat fire, but police are investigating. Are you worried the dispute over these competing lobster fisheries could get more out of control?

COLIN SPROUL: Yes, I'm certainly worried. I guess it's, you know, too early to speculate on what happened there. But I'd like to make it very clear that Bay of Fundy Inshore Fishermen's Association and the rest of the fishing groups on the ground and in St Mary's Bay condemn any sort of violence and all violence in the fishery. And we'd ask for peace and calm and dialogue going forward.

CO: What would you say to Mr. Syliboy? We just heard him talking about the hate and vitriol he's received online.

CS: Yeah, I would say that that's terrible that in this day and age, he'd be receiving any type of hate based on this kind of situation in Canada. There's no room for that.

CO: But this has been escalating, right? I mean, there were commercial fishermen who hold up Indigenous traps last month. And did you not condone that?

CS: Well, I would say in response to that is that commercial fishermen left the wharf and went to a closed lobster breeding and moulting ground and retrieved gear that, by DFO's own definitions, was set there illegally and without proper markings. And that was all conducted under the careful overwatch of multiple RCMP and DFO helicopters and ships. And 0the traps that you mentioned were returned to DFO evidence lockers and taken to a third detachment. And there were no charges laid or enforcement actions taken against anybody. And that's because it was within the law. And I understand that a lot of people disagree with that view. So I would ask them to then look at the other side of the equation is the Chief Sack printed off lobster licenses and printed off lobster tags, not based in any type of existing Canadian regulation or law, and engaged in that fishery under the exact same careful overwatch of the RCMP and federal DFO officers. And no enforcement action was taken against him either. So I think no matter which side of the arguments here you fall on, we can all agree that the ball is a Minister Jordan's court — and that she's abdicated the authority that's been delegated to her under the Marshall decision terribly at this point.

CO: That's certainly what we have heard from Mi'kmaq fishermen, who say that the ball is in the federal government's court, that they believe they are within the law doing this fishing, giving out those tags, allowing those boats to collect lobster. They say that it's because they were granted under you just mentioned the law that came out of the Donald Marshall case that they're allowed to make a modest living. So obviously, there are two understandings of what the law is, and it is in the hands of the federal government to resolve. Why do you think we're not seeing a development there?

CS: Well, I think that really the guff that's between the parties here is that we need to recognize that the Marshall decision grants the remedy to everyone's problems here in the commercial decision. Immediately after that, there was a ton of chaos and in Atlantic Canada, and the justices issued an important clarification in November of that year. And Article 40 of the clarification is crystal clear. And what it says is that the paramount regulatory objective is conservation. And responsibility for that falls squarely on the minister responsible. Not on the Aboriginal or non-Aboriginal user of the resource, full stop. So the guff between us is that, though, the Marshall decision, which affirms the treaty rights to harvest, which we firmly believe in and support, by the way, it also limits the right and the fact that responsibility for management falls on the minister.

CO: OK, let's talk about the conservation issue. Because there are those who dispute that, right? I mean, there there are those who study fishery management who say that the science doesn't support the idea. That the small amount of fishing that these licenses have allowed for, these ones that you mentioned that Chief Sack that they allowed for, now, I guess ten licenses have been granted, about 50 tags each. And compared to thousands of commercial lobster licenses. It's really a drop in the bucket, if you pardon the pun. So if that's the situation, how is this really an issue of conservation and sustainability when it's in such a small scale?

CS: A couple of key facts I think that have been lost in the wash are A, the small number of licenses that Chief Sack issued only represent a small percentage of their industrial-scale commercial fishing operation that's taking place in St. Mary's Bay. B, I would say that that the bigger picture here is that the government is currently in negotiations with 33 other First Nations in Atlantic Canada, too. This is one lobster resource. And for the federal government to believe that it could be managed with 34 sets of different management plans, plus the current ones that are based in politics and not in science is preposterous. And it would be the downfall of coastal communities in Nova Scotia. We can't manage in politics. We've all seen the horrors of that.

CO: Right. But their argument back is that they are trying to do this with all those conservation issues in mind. That they, the Indigenous fishers, want to develop a management plan with the federal government. That they plan to hire guardians to ensure safety and conservation regulations are followed. It seems that they think they want to talk, they want to deal with this. And when you say that there are many other First Nations, it's spread out over a very large area, isn't it?

CS: I guess in response to that I would say that the largest single group access holder to the existing commercial fishery in-season in St. Mary's Bay are First Nations within Atlantic Canada. So anything that Chief Sack might engage in within the bay right now is a political action to force a legitimate reconciliation of his people's rights by the federal government. It's going to have detrimental consequences during the commercial season to their First Nation and others. But let me back that up by saying that it's not right that Chief Sack has to do this. That Mi'kmaq fishers have had to wait 21 years for a recognition of their rights. We respect and support the Indigenous right to fishery access, but we don't respect and support the destruction of a lobster breeding ground. There's a political negotiating tactic during an election year in Chief Sack's nation.

CO: We'll leave it there. Mr. Sproul. But, of course, we'll be following this story. Thank you.

CS: You're very welcome. Thanks very much for a chance to share views.

CH: Colin Sproul is a commercial lobster fisherman who works with the Fundy Inshore Fishermen's Association. He's in Digby, Nova Scotia.

[Music: Horns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]

Ontario sentence ruling

Guest: Caitlyn Kasper

CH: A Northern Ontario judge has delivered a passionate indictment of the way the justice system he presides over fails Indigenous people in his region. The issue before Justice David Gibson was how six women from a fly-in community called Pikangikum would serve sentences for impaired driving. But Justice Gibson went beyond insisting that they enjoy the same rights as anyone else. He ruled, quote, "The legal regime I have been asked to consider in this application, though neutral on its face, treats the people of Treaty #5 as second-class citizens. The Government is not fulfilling its treaty obligations, and young indigenous people are taking their lives in shocking numbers." Unquote. Caitlyn Kasper is a lawyer for Aboriginal Legal Services, one of the intervenors in the case. We reached her in Toronto. 

CO: Ms. Kasper, how unusual is it to hear this kind of words from a Canadian judge dealing with a sentence for Indigenous women?

CAITLYN KASPER: I think that traditionally, judges have been very hesitant to speak about all the colonial history that Indigenous people have lived through. I think the Supreme Court has really been the leader, but it hasn't been picked up as much as we would have liked in terms of the Ontario Court of Justice judges or the Superior Court judges. So this type of decision is excellent.

CO: Yeah, it's really quite scathing, isn't it? I mean, he's saying that they are treated as second-class citizens. He says many non-indigenous Canadians are righteously angry and ashamed of the relationship we have with our Indigenous fellow citizens. So he doesn't mince words, does he?

CK: No, absolutely not. And I feel like that's because Justice Gibson practiced in the north. He grew up in the north, practiced as a criminal defence lawyer for many decades there before being appointed as a judge. And so I feel like he's really brought the knowledge that he has about those communities and the defence work that he's done and connected with those communities and tried to understand them.

CO: The case that this deals with involves six women, who had all been sentenced for impaired driving. What did Justice Gibson find was wrong with the way that they had been ordered to serve those sentences?

CK: They were ordered to serve them intermittently, which actually in and of itself was excellent. So these women went to court. They had proved to the court that they should be able to serve it on the weekends. And the problem is, is that because of where they live, because of the rural distance, because of where their home is, the reserve of Pikangikum, it's completely not feasible for them to do that and still attend the Kenora district jail on the weekends. So the judge did sentence them to an intermittent sentence. But the practical reality is that they can't serve it. And that is why this is being decided, is because Indigenous people are allowed — and they should be equally entitled to — all the benefits that every single other person in Canada would receive.

CO: What did Justice Gibson, what did he make of that move? How did he reform that?

CK: Well, I think that in the decision, he made it very clear that their case had been made, and the onus was on the Crown about the fact that they were not willing to initially make any kind of decision or move that would allow them to do that. It was, oh well, too bad. If you can't do it, then you're going to have to serve that time in jail. And that wasn't right. That's why the case was brought forward. And ultimately, it was up to Justice Gibson to really decide whether or not their rights were violated. And at the end of the day, he said, you know, Section Fifteen is equality, and these women deserve the same amount of equality as every single other person would be.

CO: Justice Gibson, though, went so far beyond just the issue of the weekend sentences, didn't he? He talked about what is happening in this community of Pikangikum, where he says that they were a healthy, self-sufficient band of families who in the lifetime of the current chief's grandmother became the suicide capital of the world. He said this is not from things that are happening a long time ago. These were things that are happening right now. And this is a modern-day version of the residential schools. Why do you think it was important for Justice Gibson to give that context?

CK: Fortunately, Justice Gibson had the benefit of evidentiary testimony that had come from Lloyd Comber, who is an individual widely respected in northern Ontario, who has worked in the court system and grew up as a child in Pikangikum. And so those stories that Justice Gibson talked about came from him hearing that firsthand from somebody who had lived through that period of transition where Pikangikum came from this place of having traditional spirituality through that colonial period of being asked to subscribe to other religions, to Christianity, other forms of belief, and then leaving all their traditional beliefs behind and then seeing what the destruction of residential schools system and everything, all those other traumas that we know have happened to Indigenous people. Seeing that and then being able to come out at the end of the day and to be able to talk about it. And Justice Gibson's heard that and was able to utilize not only our arguments about Section Fifteen but the evidence of him to really make the amazing decision that he released.

CO: And he was working, I guess, with statistics as well, not just his knowledge of the history. He points out that just in 2019, a two-month period, 600 people from Pikangikum were locked up out of a population of only 3,200 people, and that this is bound to have a serious effect on the entire community.

CK: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. So not only did we have the benefit of the historical evidence of Pikangikum, but we also were able to hear evidence that came from the current Kenora district jail. W0e heard evidence from the current then chief of Pikangikum. The council for these women were phenomenal. And they brought forward, you know, the individuals that could provide that evidence that we needed in order to be able to establish our Section Fifteen argument.

CO: What now becomes of these six women?

CK: You know what? That's to be seen. I think Justice Gibson was very clear in terms of the direction he was giving the Crown. We will see how the Crown responds to his decision. So I'm hoping for the best, but it's up to the Crown.

CO: All right. We will watch what happens. Ms. Kasper, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

CK: Thank you so much. 

CO: Bye.

CK: Bye.

CH: Caitlyn Kasper is a laywer for Aboriginal Legal Services in Ontario. We reached her in Toronto. 

[Music: Upbeat pop]

John Turner's daughter remembers him


CH: He spent a substantial part of his long life in public office — as an MP, a cabinet minister, and, eventually, as Prime Minister. And today, the late John Turner was honoured for his service. Family, friends, and dignitaries gathered at Toronto's St. Michael's Cathedral Basilica for a scaled-back state funeral to remember Mr. Turner. Speakers included Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, who remembered Mr. Turner as an inspiration and as someone who, quote, "tirelessly fought for a more just world". Unquote. John Turner's daughter, Elizabeth Turner, echoed those sentiments. And she also spoke about her father's life and influence on her, and their family. 


ELIZABETH TURNER: John Turner was competitive. I can remember many a birthday cross-country skiing outing on the trails of Camp Fortune. Without fail, Dad would be on my tail barking, 'move it or lose it, Dump', until I moved aside to let him by. One of his favourite sights was the view of Lake Huron while cross-country skiing on the Niagara Escarpment. This is Huron country, he would say every time. Family tennis games were entertaining for people watching from the sidelines, but not necessarily for those of us involved. Dad had a mean lefty sliced and a keen sense of ball placement, a double fault, a missed shot, especially if one were dad's doubles partner, often provoked some colourful critique. The ride home from those games was always a bit tense, but for some reason, we kept going back for more. John Turner's love of the outdoors and the north was a passion. We travelled to the Northwest Territories on many occasions for canoe trips, thanks to our dear friend Bob Engle. I have memories of Dad standing over the fire at the campsite, cooking dinner with a head net to protect him from the voracious black flies, swimming in the frigid waters of the Great Slave Lake, the Burnside and the Henry Rivers gazing out at the tundra as the sun set. It was in those moments that he was truly happy and at peace. He loved those trips, even if we woke at 5;00 a.m. to a snowstorm lifting our tents off the ground. John Turner believed in taking the high road. He set an incredible example. Whether struggling with back issues on the '84 and '88 campaigns, addressing negative commentary from the press, or dealing with spiteful treatment from his own party members, he handled himself with great grace and dignity. And he always maintained his sense of humour. My dad had mobility issues near the end, yes, but they never prevented him from attending a board meeting, a political event or a lunch with a friend. He never complained. He wanted to stay relevant. And in my view, he succeeded. As my mother says, he was game right to the end.

CH: That was John Turner's daughter, Elizabeth Turner, speaking at his state funeral today in Toronto. The former prime minister died in September at the age of 91.


[Music: Classic rock]

Venice flooding prevention

Guest: Simone Venturini

CH: This weekend, during the first "Acqua Alta" of the season, dreaded flood sirens rang out across the city of Venice. "Acqua Alta", or "high water", events normally put around half the city under water. But by high tide on Saturday, St Mark's Square — which is normally knee-deep — was pretty much dry. For the first time, the city was able to stave off the flooding — a huge victory in its ongoing fight against rising sea levels. Simone Venturini is the Deputy Mayor of Venice.

CO: Mr. Venturini did you have to get your rubber boots out this weekend?

SIMONE VENTURINI: Yeah, [laughing] we can take out the rubber boots and walk like a normal day in Venice.

CO: But it wasn't so bad?

SV: No, it was really good. Now we have a defence against the tide. So it's a really good day. It's a really good period. After 70 years of work, after a lot of problem and issues, MOSE works, which is good news for Venice and for the future of the city.

CO: Okay. You mentioned this MOSE. And so we spoke with you a year ago, after some devastating floods in Venice.

SV: Yes.

CO: When there was very heavy rain on the weekend of a full moon. And it was the combination with the high tide was devastating. And you were very frustrated that this MOSE system, this barricades that they've been working on for years, we're still not in place. So what's changed in the past year?

SV: It changed a lot. Mayor put a lot of pressure on national government because MOSE is a national infrastructure. So it's ruled by the government, the national government, in Rome. And the mayor of Venice put a lot of pressure on the ministry and the premier and a lot of big pressure. And building work start running more and more. So flooding in Venice was a catastrophe, yes. But it change the perspective of the national and governments about the issues of Venice and about the saving of the city. So miracle happens. And in one years of works, MOSE now is working.

CO: Wow!

SV: There's a lot of issues, small issues, to solve. But the system works.

CO: And this is a system of flood barriers. It's a huge infrastructure, isn't it? 

SV: Yes, it's invisible barrier put on the bottom of the sea. There is a lagoon in Venice where Venice is. And there is a small island called Lido, the long and small Island. And there, between the sea and the lagoon, there is three openings called the Bocca di porto, and the sea level, when the sea level is rising, a lot of water come inside the lagoon through this opening. Now, MOSE is the berrier on the bottom of the sea — twelve meters on the bottom of the sea. And when there is a high tide, the barrier, we put a lot of air in this barrier, and they come up.

CO: Wow! [chucling] Wow, I mean, it's quite a mechanism. And last year, the very high water mark was one metre, 87 centimetres when we spoke. And 90 per cent of the city had been flooded. So can this MOSE system protect you from that kind of devastation?

SV: Yes, yes. MOSE is built to protect the city from the exceptional high tide like the one that we know from last year. So if MOSE worked, Venice in November, we can save the situation. But MOSE didn't work in November.

CO: Last year, but now it does. So this must be a big game-changer for tourism in Venice? Because you had problems,[slight chuckle] people, well, it means difficult to be a tourist when your suitcase is floating down --

SV: Yes. The images about Venice flooded were very devastating for main industries in November and December. And then arrived COVID, so a lot of big issues for tourists in Venice this year. But I think it's a game-changer also for the people who lives in Venice. Now, there is a different feeling about the difficulties of living in Venice with the sea level rising. And I think a lot of Venetian people is relieved that they can stay to live in Venice. Because the high tide there is not a big problem like it was last year. So it's a game-changer, yes, for the tourism, but also for the people who lives in Venice.

CO: And so do you expect to see those tourists after this pandemic is over? They're going to be back sitting in the cafes and enjoying being in St. Mark's Square once again?

SV: Also now, people is crowded by tourism. It's a different kind of tourism. It's Italian tourism and European tourism, but also some Americans, some Japanese. So various tourism is vanishing in this period. And I think that is a wonderful moment to enjoy the city because it is not full of people like the0 city was last year. I think that Venice is also a very safe city because it's full of spaces, full of island. There are in the subway, so in COVID period, it's a safe city. And the number of the virus spreading is a very, very few.

CO: And it's not full of water, [laughing] which is the biggest development, hey, without the floods.

SV: No, no, [laughing] of course, of course. MOSE works.

CO: Mr. Venturini, it's good to talk to you. Thank you. 

SV: Thank you.

CO: Bye.

CH: Simone Venturini is the Deputy Mayor of Venice. We reached him in Venice, Italy.

[Music: Indie rock]

Part two: Come By Chance closing, ICE billboards

Come By Chance closing

Guest: Frazer Russell

CH: It may be the end of the line for the oil refinery in Come By Chance, Newfoundland and Labrador. Yesterday, hundreds of workers were told that a deal to sell the plant to Irving Oil had fallen through. But there's still a glimmer of hope that the island's only refinery could find a new life. Frazer Russell is the mayor of nearby Clarenville. That's where we reached him. 

CO: Mayor Rassell, how did you react when he got this news that the Come By Chance deal had fallen through?

FRAZER RUSSELL: Well, last night, I was watching the evening news with my wife in a normal manner. And wow, on comes this announcement from CBC that the refinery would not be opening. The current operators indicated that they were no longer going to reopen it. And the deal, the potential buyer in Irving, the deal didn't go through. And, of course, it was going to wind down and close.

CO: So that's how you found out. Was there any warning? Did you know this was coming?

FR: Not really. You know, obviously, since the COVID-19, the place, of course, wasn't open out there. But I think most people kind of felt, you know, that later on, it would be open. There would be the buyer, Irving, who's an experienced operator in the oil industry. And there would be a new owner. And very shortly, things would resume, and the refinery would be open. So there was a lot of optimism there. However, there were some that felt that all of this quietness may mean something. And, of course, obviously last night, it exploded in the worst kind of way.

CO: Have you learned anything today as to what scuttled the deal?

FR: No, not really. My fondest wish is that there are some other buyers. I know there was a one originally out there competing with Irving in some way for it, but I hope there are other buyers out there. But given the way the oil industry is now, I'm not sure that there would be a lineup out there. So the future is certainly very much in doubt.

CO: Right. And, of course, there was this announcement, of course, later today that after the first announcement or the news you got last night, that this U.S. company, Origin International, might be interested in the refinery. They had previously indicated that they were if there was an opening, if Irving wasn't interested. So how hopeful are you about that news?

FR: Well, that certainly would be a blessing, that's for sure! As I said, it's our fondest wish that they would find somebody else out there to do it. And I guess the owners are exploring that.

CO: Can you give us some sense of the scale of, I guess, job devastation, community suffering that would go along with that refinery being closed?

FR: Well, as you know, it's close to 500 people work at the refinery and stretching everywhere from Grand Falls to Bonavista. But certainly St. John's as well. And, of course, a large amount of them in the Clarenville area. But anytime you take these number of jobs out. Obviously, it's going to have a devastating effect. So in addition to the full-time jobs from our town, there's many full-time jobs surrounding our town, and these are, you know, well-paid positions. And, of course, they do a lot for the local economy. So, you know, I spoke to a car dealership today and said as many as 25 or 30 sales are affected by refinery workers and their families. So that will give you some idea.

CO: It's the commerce that's sort of you can quantify it that way. And each one of those hundreds of workers who might be losing their jobs, each one represents a family, doesn't it?

FR: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And, you know, aside from the economic factors, you know, 100 families affected, you know, are they going to uproot and leave Clarenville and the province to seek employment elsewhere?

CO: One of the factors is that the industry, many people say we've reached peak oil, that even if it continues for a while, this is an industry that is kind of winding down in many parts of the world. So do you think that there is a place now for levels of government to step in to be helping your region diversify so you don't have to see people leaving and going someplace else?

FR: Oh, absolutely. That would certainly be a wonderful idea with trends there. I mean, obviously, the need for oil on a go-forward basis, the refining capacity will not be needed as much as in the past. So you're going to be a natural reduction in that as well. So there would be an opportunity there for governments. Otherwise, I don't think there's much more that Minister Parsons could do or the premier could do. This particular operation here is private enterprise. And I guess what they do there, we'll find out from the business factors of whether they were able to make money there with a declining demand. And obviously, that was a very big factor in the buyer stepping forward.

CO: All right, Mayor Russell, we'll leave it there. We'll be watching over these coming days to see if there's a development. Thanks for speaking with us.

FR: Wonderful, it was a pleasure talking with you.

CH: Frazer Russell is the mayor of Clarenville, Newfoundland and Labrador. That's where we reached him. 

[Music: Ambient]

New commander

CH: The Canadian Forces flying school in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan has a new commander. Lieutenant-Colonel Riel Erickson has taken over. She's the first woman in the role — and she was the fifth woman in Canada to become a fighter pilot, after getting her wings in 2005. Lieutenant-Colonel Erickson was a guest on the "Calgary Eyeopener" today, to talk about the new job and what inspired her to fly supersonic jets.

DAVID GRAY: Canada has only ever had, what, five female fighter pilots? Is that true? Including you?

RIEL ERICKSON: Up until me, it was five. We have had one more, and then we've got another one in training as we speak. But yeah, there hasn't been a lot of us.

DG: Why is that? 

RE: I don't know. And that's always been a question of mine when I went through training because it is an incredible job. I definitely knew I was five. I can't wait till, you know, I was I'm one of 105. But I think we'll see more women there, we'll start seeing more women want to be there.

DG: So what makes a kid from Millarville want to become a fighter pilot?

RE: So my uncle, who was a fighter pilot, he was in the first Gulf War, was the first Canadian to fire shots in anger since the Korean War. I remember watching him on the news and, you know, everybody in the family waiting in anticipation for him to return. So when I got, you know, towards the end of my high school days, and I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do, I remembered all the very cool stories that he had to tell. And I decided that actually seemed like it might be pretty exciting.

DG: How did you get there? What was it like entering?

RE: So, I joined the Royal Military College of Canada and got a degree out of Kingston. 

DG: Um-hmm.

RE: Following that, I came here actually to Moose Jaw and started my training. I actually had almost no aviation experience when I started. And the training here, it was fast, it was intense and I really fell in love actually, with flying. So as I was going along, I knew, OK. Yep. I definitely want to keep going. I want to do the fighter pilot thing. I tried my best to stay at the top of the class to get there. And it felt like a blink of an eye. And next thing I knew, I was sitting in F 18. [both chuckling]

DG: Does it cut back on your time flying now that you've got the big gig?

RE: It does actually, a lot. I have a little more responsibilities outside of the cockpit now that I'm sitting in this seat. But, you know, one of the first things I did on Monday morning was go for a flight. And I took that opportunity and man, did I know I made the right decision coming back. [both chuckling]

CH: That's Lieutenant-Colonel Riel Erickson speaking with David Gray, host of "The Calgary Eyeopener". The lieutenant-colonel is the new head of the Canadian Forces Flying Training School in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan. 

[Music: Pop]

ICE billboards

Guest: John Amaya

CH: The very large print says "WANTED by ICE" — also known as US. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. But as is so often the case, it's helpful to keep an eye on the small print, too. Which, in this case, says: "Sanctuary Policies are a REAL DANGER". That warning is written under images of people ICE identifies as "criminal aliens". These "Wanted" billboards began popping up in Pennsylvania on Friday, inspiring condemnation and concern from a number of fronts, including from former ICE officials. John Amaya is a former ICE Deputy Chief of Staff under the Obama Administration. We reached him near Washington, DC.

CO: Mr. Amaya, what was your reaction when you first learned about these billboards?

JOHN AMAYA: You know, my first reaction was one of disgust and frustration. But I got to tell you, I'm not surprised. Nothing that this president has done should surprise any of us anymore.

CO: But it's done by ICE. What makes you so sure this has come as a directive from the White House?

JA: You know, I worked under the Obama administration's leadership, obviously, including President Barack Obama. And decisions like these that are so large in scale that reached the country in a very significant way are not done in isolation. These have to be run through the secretary's office up at headquarters and ultimately have to be cleared by the White House. There is no way the agency would have made this decision on its own.

CO: But that's something police do, right? They put out wanted posters if they're seeking somebody who is of concern or who's wanted by the authorities. How are these wanted posters, wanted the billboards different?

JA: So it's true law enforcement does this. The FBI has done this for their ten most wanted for decades. So that's consistent in that regard. However, what's fundamentally different about this is that we're talking about billboards. And it's strategically located in cities whose leadership this administration does not get along with. And in doing so, they are sending a political message to the citizens of those cities and jurisdictions. And they're also sending, and I think that's probably the part I feel most disgusted with, they're sending dog whistles to their supporters, to the president's supporters, about the fact that they are implicitly calling for help to apprehend and take custody of these individuals. And that's where I think this really is ultimately where the rubber is going to hit the road. And that's because somehow, someway, someone's going to take matters into their own hands. And it's conceivable that an individual is going to get hurt or worse.

CO: Let's just be clear about who these people are. So they're targets as you call them. And they are undocumented immigrants. And these are people are they wanted for crimes? Are they fugitives in that regard?

JA: We're talking about individuals who are often here unlawfully. They've overstayed their visas. They've come in permissively. Or they had green cards and they committed crimes. And by virtue of committing that crime, they have lost their privilege to that green card. And in the interim, these individuals have been arrested. They have been charged. Oftentimes, they've been convicted by a jury of their peers and they have served their sentence. At the end of their criminal sentence, or if they've only been charged and released on bond, the local cities or counties release these individuals into the streets because they've either served their debt to society or they've been released on bond, waiting their day in court.

CO: So they have cleared their relationship with the justice system, or they are in the process of being within the Justice Department. But now the Immigration Department wants them. So what relationship, what obligations do the police, do the authorities have to actually pass these people over to the immigration authorities?

JA: There is no obligation by local law enforcement to hand over custody of these individuals to ICE. Historically, it's been a working agreement, a cooperative agreement between local jurisdictions and the federal government. And it's worked out pretty smoothly, except for back in 2014. There was a federal suit in Oregon that yielded a lot of concern for states and counties and cities whereby a federal judge said it could very well be a constitutional violation to hold people longer than their criminal sentence solely for the purpose of transferring custody to ICE. The Obama administration, very aware of this, and not wanting to push cities and jurisdictions to violate federal law, began working with those cities to figure out how it was that we could come to an agreement to have them hand over to us. I say us because, at the time, I was with the agency and hand over to us individuals who were actual individuals posing a danger to society, national security or had committed certain criminal acts.

CO: But what you're saying is that this isn't a jurisdiction dispute. This is about politics. This is the politicizing of that office of ICE. Is that what you mean?

JA: Oh, without question. You know, this has been telegraphed since before Donald Trump won the election in 2016. Republicans had been seeking information from ICE in 2015 and 2016 to be able to determine what jurisdictions weren't cooperating. And then being able to label them sanctuary cities. Obviously, this White House is taking it to a whole different level and now has tried to sue jurisdictions, has tried to keep federal funds from jurisdictions who choose not to cooperate with them. And they've just made things exponentially worse. And, in the end, they're actually making our communities less safe, not just for the citizenry, but also for the officers.

CO: What's the significance of being in Pennsylvania with these billboards and specifically around Philadelphia and Pittsburgh then?

JA: So what I think is so blatantly obvious is that the president, he sees how vulnerable he is in key states, Pennsylvania being among them. Obviously, that is Vice-President Joe Biden's home state. And he would love nothing more than to be able to take that electorally, but also to leave the vice-president, obviously a personal black eye. And it's such an offensive way to go about it because, in the end, this is not how a responsible law enforcement agency should go about doing its business.

CO: Mr. Amaya, we will leave it there. But thank you for speaking with us.

JA: My pleasure.

CH: John Amaya was ICE Deputy Chief of Staff under the Obama administration. He's just outside Washington, DC. U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement did not respond to our request for comment. But in a new press release, ICE says the billboards are designed to "educate the public about the dangers of non-cooperation policies." And that "ICE will continue to enforce immigration laws set forth by Congress ... to remove criminal aliens and making our communities safer." You can find more on this story on our webpage, at:


[Music: Indie rock]


Macho music


CH: Your boss is returning to work unexpectedly, and he really wants to make a big entrance that establishes a few things. First, that he's totally fine, even though he's really not. And second, that he's a truly epic man. You're not sure what that means, but you know you have some musical options. Like this. 

[Music: "The Boys Are Back In Town" by Thin Lizzy/rock]

CH: Great song. Problem is, it suggests there are a lot of "boys" when some bosses believe they're the only important boy. Also, the rights are expensive. You could go with this.

["Macho Man" by the Village People/ rock]

CH: Total classic. But your boss might feel upstaged by the machismo of the Village People. Plus, again, you'd have to pay for it. So finally, you go online and do the most unimaginative search you can think of: "Epic Male Songs". And that's where you find it.


[Music: A pulsing orchestra  number full of macho energy called "Believe"]


CH: This song was the soundtrack to last night's video of U.S. President Donald Trump, which he tweeted about an hour after he returned to the White House. A dramatic short film meant to underline that Mr. Trump was both epic and male for going back to work while having COVID-19. The song is called "Believe" — and it genuinely, no-kidding comes a collection of stock music called "Epic Male Songs". Unlike Mr. Trump's mask when her arrived at the White House, that is really on-the-nose. Not to mention a bit overdramatic. And it seemed like many people didn't feel like the video wasn't powerful so much as propaganda. So nice try on the music. But obviously, it's a thin line between "Epic Male" and epic fail. 

[Music: Elevator music]

Dog face study, Happiness museum

Zoom in water MP


CH: This pandemic has changed where a lot of us go to work — and what we wear to work. Since we no longer have to impress — or even just not gross out — our colleagues at the office, we take Zoom calls sitting on the couch in the living room, while wearing our pajamas or swimming trunks on our bottom half. A sign of these times came today when Conservative MP Scot Davidson addressed the House of Commons. During his member's statement, viewers could see him wearing a suit with a blue tie on his top half. But on his bottom half he had on brown waders — because he was standing in Lake Simcoe. Here's what he had to say:

SPEAKER: The honourable member for York-Simcoe.

SCOT DAVIDSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's unbelievable. 362 days — almost an entire year — since the deputy prime minister announced the reinstatement of the Lake Simcoe cleanup fund here on the shores of Lake Simcoe. And we're still waiting. After years of Conservative investment, the Liberals cancelled the cleanup fund in 2017, putting Lake Simcoe at risk. Sadly, the Liberals' pledge to bring back the cleanup fund seems to me just another broken promise from a government that just can't deliver. The cleanup is needed now. But it doesn't stop there, Mr. Speaker. More needs to be done on the environment. [water sloshing] Canadians are also looking for meaningful action on plastic waste. For too long, our country has been sending away its garbage for other countries to deal with. All too often, it ends up being disposed of improperly, and eventually winding back up in our water, including lakes such as this.

CH: That was York-Simcoe MP Scot Davidson speaking to his colleagues while standing in the waters of Lake Simcoe

[Music: Jazz]

Dog face study

Guest: Attila Andics 

CH: We feel a deep connection with our dogs. Partly because they're so deeply connected to us. They understand our feelings. When we throw a stick away, they bring it back, knowing that we really wanted it all along. We love their faces, and they love ours. Or so we thought. But we have been misled. We thought we had an idea of what was happening in their brains when they saw our faces. But it turns out: not much is happening at all. New research published in the Journal of Neuroscience reveals that within their brains, dogs don't actually react to our faces the way we'd expect, or hope, them to. Attila Andics is the lead researcher of this study. He's based at Eötvös Loránd University in Budapest, Hungary, which is where we reached him. 

CO: Attila, when someone looks at their dog and they say, who's a good boy? And the dog's looking back, and looks happy wagging his tail, what's really going on there with the dog?

ATTILS ANDICS: So you know they do care about human faces, they have excellent eye contact and read emotions from our face. But in the human brain, we found several brain regions which tend to be tuned to faces. And into dog brain, there seem to be no brain regions which are tuned to faces. So that's a big difference, actually.

CO: So basically, OK, So the dog is not really responding to our face?

AA: They don't respond to faces stronger than to other kinds of stimuli. They don't specialize in faces as human brains are. But they do care about our facial expressions. They read emotions very well from our faces. Dogs typically use many other body signals like tails, the ears, the body posture. And of course, these are important for humans as well. But for humans, the faces are really central to visual communication. And it seems that dogs, they learned that faces are important for humans. The brain of the dog is not specialized in faces.

CO: So if we could move our ears around, pin them back, [chuckling] or growl, bare our teeth, things like that, the dog would respond to that because that's what dogs do as part of their communication with each other, right?

AA: Definitely, yeah. And we also know that dogs are specialized in their voices. This is actually also true for humans. So in an earlier study, we found that when you present different sounds to humans, their brains respond strongest to human voices. And dog brain responds strongest dog voices. That is something we see in vision as well. In this study, we saw actually that those brains are excited to see same species images. And actually, human brains are excited to see same species images as well. It is a similarity between the two species, the big difference is that, in dogs, there seems to be no face singularity network, meaning that the brain regions of dogs are not the more interested in faces than in non-faces. But otherwise, they do process all of this.

CO: But dogs have a lot of senses going on, right? They have tremendous smell. They can feel things. They can detect things that humans [laughing] fail at doing with each other. So they have a whole network of ways of figuring out what's going on, right?

AA: Yes. Yes. You are right that dogs don't need to rely very heavily on the faces. So in evolutionary terms, this makes complete sense, actually, that they are not specialized in faces. The interesting thing to us is that they still are pretty good at it.

CO: But you say [chuckling] in the study that a dog has is basically the same reaction. What you can see in their brains when you examine them under the waves, you can see they react the same way to the back of a head as they do to the front of the head.

AA: Exactly. The brain doesn't respond differently. The brain is not more excited seeing a face than the back of the head. And this is not the pattern we know from humans.

CO: [slight chuckle] You know, you're going to disappoint a lot of dog owners with this research.

AA: Actually, I think that this research shows that books are really cool. Because even though they don't have specialized neural machinery to process faces, they are still very good at doing this. And this means that they had to learn much more, work much more for them to excel at eye contact, to excel at following our gaze, to excel at reading emotions and recognizing the owner. They have to do much more because their brain doesn't support it as much as a human brain does.

CO: I know in order to do the research, you had to get dogs to lie very, very still inside MRI machines, which is hard even for humans to do, even though they know what's going on. How did you manage to get the dogs to do that?

AA: Training dogs to take part in these experiences is actually a beautiful part of the work we are doing. So for us, it's extremely important to work with animals who are happy volunteers in these studies. And so it's a several month-long training using positive reinforcement methods and the so-called model arrival training method in which we train simultaneously a more experienced then the less experienced dog. So the less experienced one is watching the clever one in the machine to sse how we praise it for lying motionless for several minutes. and then the less experienced one also wants to be there, wants to show that he can do is just as well.

CO: Right, these are really good boys and girls. 

AA: Yeah. [both chuckle] 

CO: What's next for your research?

AA: This is one of the very first dog-human directly comparative brain imaging studies. I'm still very interested to see whether there are brain specializations that develops in the dog brain rapidly as a consequence of domestication in the last some ten-thousand years in response to living among humans.

CO: All right. Well, we will wait to see what else you learn about dogs and tell us, Attila. Thanks for speaking with us.

AA: Thanks very much. 

CO: Bye.

CH: Attila Andics is a researcher at Eötvös Loránd University in Budapest, Hungary. That's where we reached him. You can find more on this story on our webpage, at: If you're losing hope in your dog's undying love for you — since it can't tell your front from your back — this next piece of news will not help: Dogs are not exactly heroes. Or at least, that's what William Roberts told this program back in 2006. He is a professor of psychology at Western University in London, Ontario. Here's what he told Carol about why he's so convinced that your dog isn't coming to the rescue. 

CO: Dr. Roberts, your study is going to come as a big disappointment to a lot of people.

WILLIAM ROBERTS: Yes, I was afraid it might disappoint some people that hope that dogs would always come to their aid in an emergency. But the evidence suggests otherwise.

CO: Now, why did you decide to study canine bravery?

WR: Mainly because there are so many stories going back actually over 100 years of dogs coming to the aid of people in emergencies. And I wanted to find out if, in fact, dogs were really intelligent enough to recognize an emergency and to take appropriate action.

CO: Had you ever been in a situation yourself where you saw a dog do something or wondered if the dog was trying to help or anything like that?

WR: Some years ago, I had a dog, a Sheltie, and someone tried to break into our house in the middle of the night. They were very noisy in doing it. And the dog did nothing but lie on the floor. [ bothlaughing] So that made me wonder a little bit.

CO: So how did you conduct your study?

WR: Well, essentially what we did was to use a procedure that had been devised by social psychologists studying human bystander apathy, where they would place a naive person in a situation where there was apparently an emergency. Of course, it was a bogus emergency. And what they found was that people were much more likely to help if they were alone than if other people were there. So that's basically what we did, was we put them in two situations where their owner was in an "emergency" — quotes emergency — because, of course, the owner was not really in danger, but was carrying out our instructions. In one case, the owner, in an open field, fell to the ground and feigned a heart attack. And in the other case, in a dog training school, the owner was examining some books in a bookcase and the bookcase, falls on the owner.

CO: Not really falls on him, but this is the fake pinning.

WR: And while the owner is crying out in pain and asking the dog to go for help, the question is, will the dog go to other people, bystanders that are nearby and seek their help in some way?

CO: OK, let's start with the one in the field. What happened?

WR: Well, basically, the dogs did one of two things. Either they stayed very close to the owner or they went off and roamed around the field. [CO luahgs] But in no case did they go to a bystander and try and solicit their help. There was one case of a toy poodle who went to a bystander and jumped in the bystanders' lap. But it was very clear that this dog was seeking comfort and not trying to get help for its owner.

CO: Now, what about the possibility that these dogs are so smart they knew you were faking it?

WR: Well, that's a question I've been asked many times. And I guess there are two things I have to say. One is that, particularly in the second experiment, we went to quite an extreme to create an emergency. The human is lying on the floor, pinned under a bookcase, crying out in pain and asking the dog to go for help. The second thing is that in less dramatic, feigned emergencies carried out in the earlier human studies, the human subjects or naive individuals always thought it was a real emergency. So you'd have to argue that somehow dogs are more sensitive to a bogus emergency than a human is.

CH: That was William Roberts, a psychologist at Western University, speaking with Carol on this program back in 2006. 

[Music: Tim Burton-like tune]

SOD: Musicians play parliament

[Music: "Mars" by Gustav Holst/classical]

CH: That's the sound of hundreds of freelance musicians playing together in the U.K.'s Parliament Square today. Their message was "Let Music Live:" They were conscientiously distanced apart as they played about 90 seconds of GustavH olst's "Mars" — only 20% of the song — to represent the maximum salary top-up they can get from their government's COVID-19 program. With no tours, no concerts, and no live events for the foreseeable future, the protest was meant to highlight the precarious position thousands of musicians now find themselves in — not to mention the many freelancers who've fallen through the cracks of government plans. Keith Ames is a representative of the UK's Musicians Union. He was at today's event.

KEITH AMES: We are here representing freelance working musicians from across Great Britain. 85 per cent of our members are freelance, and they rely on a steady stream of a variety of work. That might be wedding functions. It could be theatres. It could be recording. It could be teaching. It could be playing all sorts of music at different times. And if the phone doesn't ring and they don't get the email, they have no work. Now, in March, April, when that started, people envisaged there'd be all right by May and we can get back to work. Well, clearly, that hasn't happened. We're now into the autumn. There is no guarantee of live work over Christmas and probably through to March, that will have been a complete year with no work. And we're calling on the government to either develop a scheme that will allow people to get back to playing, maybe pay for every other seat in a theatre, that kind of idea. We're not demanding profit, but we are asking for survival.

CH: Keith Ames is a representative of the UK's Musicians Union. He spoke at a protest in London, England earlier today.


[Music: Spanish guitar]


Ideas promo

CH: On "Ideas" tonight, part two of the "Idea of India" — and the story of a Dalit icon, BR Ambedkar, who claimed India could never be free among the caste system was eradicated. Mr. Ambedkar was a thinker, activist, lawyer and reformer. He asked what inclusion and fraternity could look like to those whose essential humanity has so often been denied.

SPEAKER:  He tried Ghandin methods, right? And he led these so-called entry movements, right? Where he would use the methods of boycott, of civil disobedience, of nonviolent protest, and he would lead large numbers of untouchables. And he would say, we're going to try to enter into upper-caste temples where untouchables are not allowed to enter. We're going to go to tanks, we're going to try and drink water from public tanks and wells, which many should be open to people of all castes, but which upper-castes control, right? We're going to walk on these roads. We're going to enter into these precincts. We're going to use these public resources and these common goods because these are civic issues. These are not religious issues.

CH: An excerpt from Part two of the "Idea of India: Gandhi Versus B.R. Armbedkar. The story behind Mr. Armbedkar's unlikely life tonight on "Ideas" with Nahlah Ayed, after "As It Happens". 

[Music: Bright piano]

Happiness Museum
Guest: Onor Hanreck-Wilkinson

CH: Disney Land calls itself the happiest place on Earth. But if "It's a Small World" gives you a headache, or you're scared of sweaty teenagers dressed as Goofy. There are other places that might do it better. Take Bhutan, for instance, which has a gross national happiness index to gauge how content its citizens are. Or Denmark, which consistently ranks high on the world's happiness report — and which probably, not coincidentally, is home to the world's first Happiness Museum, which is now happily welcoming visitors. Onor Hanreck-Wilkinson is an analyst at the Happiness Research Institute, which runs the museum. We reached Ms. Hanreck-Wilkinson in Copenhagen.

CO: Onor, If I were to enter the Happiness Museum, would I feel happy? 

ONOR HANRECK-WILKINSON: I very much hope so. I really hope that your spirits would be boosted from all of the yellow and the bright colours and the smiling faces, as soon as you entered.

CO: What would I see? 

OHW: You would see a lot of information, firstly. So there's been so many interesting studies about happiness, and you would see these findings presented in a way that's interactive, engaging, and that really pricks the interest in the subject of happiness research.

CO: I guess one of the first things is that there is a discussion about where people are most happy. And where are the happiest countries?

OHW: So the happiest countries consistently are actually the Nordic countries. So since the World Happiness Report has been published since 2012, the Nordic countries consistently rank among the happiest countries in the world. And right now, Finland is the happiest country in the world, with Denmark coming a close second.

CO: Now, you see that it seems that wouldn't be the case because when you think of Nordic countries, including Canada, well, we talk about Nordic noir, don't we, about the TV and about angst.

OHW: Yeah, of course.

CO: And about all kinds of dark things. So what is it that makes Nordic countries happy, do you think?

OHW: So if we take the model of the Nordic countries, as in Finland and Denmark and Norway, there are some cultural and social elements that really enable high levels of life satisfaction in the Nordics. So you pay some of the highest taxes in the world. But many, many people living in the Nordic countries say that they are happy to pay those taxes and that they are happy because of the taxes, because they get services in return, which enable them to have high levels of life satisfaction. For example, free health care, free education. The Nordic countries are also very trusting societies. So I don't know if you have ever seen images which have sometimes gone viral on the Internet of parents leaving their babies sleeping in the pushchair outside a cafe or outside a restaurant or a shop. There's no fear that anything bad could happen by doing so.

CO: Wow! Okay, so that's all included in the "Atlas of Happiness". But then beyond that, in your museum, what actually tells us about happiness?

OHW: So we try and show all of the different angles that we can approach happiness from. So we place it in a variety of contexts. We look at happiness in our policies. So we call it the politics of happiness. And we look at the correlations between GDP and happiness levels in countries across the world. We've touched on it briefly, but also the geography of happiness. And we use Copenhagen actually as an example of a city whose infrastructure enables high levels of life satisfaction. And then we also have a personal, more personal dimension to the museum, where we have a collection of 18 objects which have actually been donated to us by people from around the world. And they go from a badminton racket, to an asthma inhaler, to a marathon medal. And we display the objects alongside the stories. And then the guests who come to the museum, we actually encourage them to write their definition or their happiest memory on a post-it note and stick it on the wall. And right now, the walls are covered in yellow post-it notes. And it's really heartwarming to read all of these personal anecdotes of happiness that we've collected.

CO: You mentioned some objects that have this association.

OHW: Yeah, yeah. 

CO: One of them I understand is comfort seeds. What is it about those?

OHW: Yeah, so the comfort seeds were donated to us by a lady in the U.S., who actually her father, unfortunately, passed away from cancer and her mother collected all of his shirts and she had them for about ten years. And she finally pulled him out and stuck to one of the shirts was a small tomato seed. And she spontaneously popped into a glass of water and it sprouted. And then eventually became a ten-foot-tall tomato plant. So she then created this initiative to plant tomato seeds with people who have suffered loss as a way to show them about life cycles and kind of gives them hope after loss. And it's been a really beautiful initiative. And she actually donated two packages of the comfort seeds that she gives away to people who have suffered loss.

CO: And there's a badminton racket?

OHW: Yes, the badminton racket is actually the story of a woman who her husband and her parted ways. And she began playing badminton. And she started playing with a friend and eventually developed into a romantic relationship. And they're still together today. So the badminton racket is a symbol of a new start.

CO: So, I mean, the emotions are not just limited to this narrow one of happiness, because some people say, well, happiness it's not really a state of mind. It's fleeting. You're showing that there's a range of emotions that perhaps lead to happiness, that include a sense of optimism or hope.

OHW: Definitely, yeah. Actually, when we measure happiness, one of the dimensions is what we call Affective happiness. And it's all a daily emotional experience. And those emotions do include not just happy, it's also things like feeling alert, feeling inspired. So the museum, especially with these personal objects, definitely reflects different emotions people feel.

CO: Okay. So the whole subject of happiness. I know people [laughing] a probably discussing this at home, but there's I mean, the argument is that if you're living in a kind of state of bliss or happiness, maybe you just don't know what's going on. I mean, maybe you're kind of in a bit in La La Land, right?

OHW: So, yeah. The way that we look at happiness is by using happiness as an umbrella term to encompass, firstly, life satisfaction. So how you feel about the course of your life, which encourages you to take kind of a step back and look with a broader perspective of how things are going. And then the second dimension is the daily emotional experience, as we briefly touched on, the asking about how intensely a person felt the following emotions the previous day. And it's a list of 20 emotions, ten positive, ten negative. And then the final dimension that we use is your sense of purpose or your sense of meaning. So how much meaning you feel your life has, how much purpose you feel the things in your life have for you.

CO: Given that so many museums are actually struggling these days, why did you think this would be successful right now?

OHW: So the idea has been kind of brewing for many years — probablly for the last three years. Because of the state of things in Denmark. We were actually able to open, and with some restrictions in place, but we were able to have people through the doors and welcoming them and introducing them to this labour of love.

CO: [chuckling] All right. Well, I wish you success and happiness, Onor. It's good to talk. 

OHW: Thank you. Great to talk to you. 

CO: Bye. 

OHW: Thank you.

CH: Onor Hanreck-Wilkinson helps run the Happiness Museum in Copenhagen. That's where we reached her.