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The AIH Transcript for April 25th, 2022

DAVE SEGLINS: Hello, I'm Dave Seglins.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight

DS: This year's Musk-have accessory. Elon Musk's purchase of Twitter has inspired applause and hand-wringing -- but our guest says that, at this point, all we know for sure is that he's not doing it for business reasons; he's doing it for his own.

CH: Cancel culture. We'll talk to a journalist who resigned from the Hong Kong Foreign Correspondents' Club after it called off its annual human rights press awards -- who says the decision violates the very idea of press freedom.

DS: Show of support. We'll hear from a Ukrainian artist who's showcasing his work at the Venice Biennale -- about how his art has taken on a whole new significance in the wake of Russia's invasion.

CH: Attuned to the needs of others. The 96-year-old winner of a Governor General's award for volunteering tells us decades of playing music for patients in nursing homes and hospitals has brought him at least as much joy as it brings them.

DS: Dancing around the problem. In the late '70s, no NHL player combined coolness and talent like Guy Lafleur -- but his only album proves even he couldn't combine disco beats with hockey instruction.

CH: And… the ball is in his court. We hear from a man who's doing his best to dunk on the theory that basketball has its origins in Canada -- by claiming it started in his American hometown instead.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that would love to dismiss his theory as swishful thinking.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Musk Buys Twitter, Venice Biennale: Ukrainian Artist, GG Volunteer Award

Musk Buys Twitter

Guest: Erik Gordon

CH: To his fans, this is yet another world-changing move by a visionary genius. To his detractors, well, there goes the online neighbourhood. Today, Elon Musk bought Twitter for about $44 billion U.S. The Tesla CEO -- who is also the world's richest person -- had been maneuvering to take over the social media giant for several weeks. Mr. Musk describes himself as a "free speech absolutist" -- which his tweets have long suggested. He said he wanted to take the company private, so that it could live up to its potential for almost no-holds-barred discourse. Which is great news for people who feel Twitter is too uptight and terrible news for people who believe some holds should be barred. Erik Gordon is a business professor at the University of Michigan. We reached him in Ann Arbor.

DS: Professor Gordon, how big a shift is this for the social media world?

ERIK GORDON: It's a giant shift because Elon Musk is a giant personality. He's a business person, but he's not buying Twitter for business reasons. So you can have this huge social media outlet run by somebody who's, I don't know, maybe even weirder than Zuckerberg.

DS: Well, you've compared him to Citizen Kane. [chuckle] Why is that?

EG: Well, I think his buying it is in the tradition of wealthy people buying powerful media in their day. In the days of, well, the real Citizen Kane, it was newspapers. Wealthy, powerful people like to have power over the media. They like to have a mouthpiece. And I think Musk is a throwback to that. He wants to be sure that Twitter will be available to him to shoot off his mouth.

DS: But with all of Twitter's users, isn't it about the… the town square and the individuals that make up Twitter as opposed to one particular voice?

EG: Yeah, the Twitter town square thing was the aspiration. But in reality, it's been dominated by a few big personalities. It was dominated by Donald Trump. It's dominated by a few celebrities. And when Musk tweets, my, it probably gets as many follows as when everybody else who tweeted that day tweeted. So, it's not really the town square that we once hoped it would be.

DS: Well, Elon Musk has talked about his desire to have an absolute free speech zone on Twitter and that this would be good for democracy. How do you see it?

EG: Well, you know, free speech has never been totally, absolutely free. I mean, there's the law school 101 example of you're not free to yell fire in a crowded theatre. These days, there's a lot of concern that some of the things that are said, you know, under the right of free speech, are really harmful to society, have polarized society and victimised people. So, you know, there's a broad spectrum of views about what free speech means and what the limits of it might be. Musk's thinking that it has no limits. Well, I mean, I guess that's one view, but not everybody's going to love it.

DS: How practically do you think Twitter might change now under his ownership?

EG: I think it'll get a little more outrageous, a little wilder. But Twitter, as a business, has not been so hot. It hasn't been so hot since about forever. And I don't think that that will change under him. I don't think he's coming in to do a business turnaround. I think he's coming in to, you know, grab the megaphone.

DS: Do you think people will leave the platform if they don't like what they hear or changes they see on it?

EG: You know, I don't think too many people will leave. A lot of people who follow Twitter like the controversy. They actually like having somebody I hate. When Mr. Trump was on Twitter, one of the people who followed him followed him in order to kind of diss him and hate him.

DS: Now, Donald Trump has been famously banned from Twitter. Do you think he'll be allowed back?

EG: I think he will be. I think when Musk says absolute free speech, he means absolute free speech without closing just about anybody out. It'll be interesting to see whether he would close out Putin or any other world leaders.

DS: Well, he's been somewhat coy on what specifically he'd be interested in doing. I mean, if you see this as him wanting to advance his own causes or interests, what does that look like?

EG: I think he's interested in two things: keeping access open to him and keeping access open to almost everybody else. This is not a business proposition for him, so I don't think that he has any big business plans. I think the reason he hasn't revealed any big business plan changes is that he doesn't have them. He's really focused on the speech thing.

DS: Well, that's $44 billion. It's a lot of money for a vanity project.

EG: Yeah. I mean, it's a $45 billion megaphone. He's going to put in over $20 billion of his own money. It's a lot of money, but he has a lot of money. And I guess if you have that much money, and you can do it, it's a fantasy world for most of us, but what else is he going to do with all that money?

DS: What else should we be watching for? I just… I'm trying to think through the implications of this deal when we know so little about, you know, what... what he thinks of in terms of this being a democratizing tool.

EG: You know, it's a wild card deal. We don't know. He probably doesn't know. And this deal can be done only because he has enough money to get it done. Because if there were other investors, he would have to explain to them in more detail what he intends to do. He can just buy it and pretty much do whatever he wants to.

DS: There's been a lot made about the role that Twitter and other sort of social media echo chambers have… have played a role in dividing people. Do you think that's going to change under Elon Musk?

EG: I don't think that'll change. I think the echo chambers might get louder. And it seems like an increasing percentage of us like that. For those of us who believe in things like civil discourse, well, it's not an encouraging move.

DS: Professor Gordon, we'll leave it there. Thank you for making time for us.

EG: My pleasure, Dave.

DS: Bye-now.

EG: Bye-bye.

CH: Erik Gordon is a business professor at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.

[Music: Violin]

Venice Biennale: Ukrainian Artist

Guest: Pavlo Makov

CH: At the best of times, showing your work at a major, global art show requires lots of planning, time, and problem-solving. And for Pavlo Makov, these are not the best of times. He's a Ukrainian artist who is part of this year's Venice Biennale. His work Fountain of Exhaustion, which features dozens of copper funnels, is on display. And putting it on display took more work and more stress than it would have in previous years. On the day of the Russian invasion, Mr. Makov's colleague packed the funnels in her car. She then spent days driving, to get that part of the installation out of the country. We reached Pavlo Makov in Venice.

DS: Mr. Makov, what were you thinking while you were in Venice this weekend for the opening of the Biennale?

PAVLO MAKOV: Well, I was thinking about a lot of things. You know, it's difficult to say, you know, because when you sit here, and your country is devastated with the missiles and tanks, you know? So, it's a lot of things about… to think about. Something difficult to really choose what I have been thinking during these last two months, yeah.

DS: Well, I understand there was even question as to whether you'd be able to attend this year's Biennale in Venice. Tell us more about the early days of the invasion for you and your family?

PM: You know, at the beginning, we didn't want to… we didn't want to leave our city because we never expected that Russians would be so severely bombing the civil quarters, you know, the centre of the city. And were after two days staying in our apartment, we decided to go to the bomb shelter as well as our son with his girlfriend and her mother. They went into a different bomb shelter. And… and my mom, she's 92, she stayed in the house. She refused to leave the apartment. She refused to go to the bomb shelter. So we stayed there for about a week, and then the centre of the city was, at that time, that day, you know, they were really bombed. They were really… with the missiles, you know? They bombed the centre of the city and also the civil quarters. And then, I decided that I have to take my mom because it's a certain kind of responsibility because… and to take my wife, you know, two other… two other ladies who are good friends of ours and we five was… left the city by the car.

DS: Why was it important for you to take your art to show it to the rest of the world in Venice?

PM: Well, you know, it wasn't me who took it. You know, it was… our project was ready, but it was in Kyiv. You know, if you can geographically understand, Kharkiv is 1,200 kilometres away from the Polish border, and Kyiv is only 600 kilometres away. And the first day when the war started, I was in Kharkiv. I wasn't even thinking about Venice at that point. But then our curator, one of the curators, in know she took the essential part of our project, which was bronze funnels already moulded, you know? And she took them in her car, and she moved to Vienna. And then, when we already was… my wife and my… my mom, you know, we arrived to the west of Ukraine, she gave me a call. She said that she's really determined to make… still to make our pavilion in Venice, and we decided to make it. And I decided, Okay, I'll go and help. And then, we received a lot of help from Italy, from some absolutely sometimes unknown people, also from the Office of the Biennale, which was very helpful. And we were able to, according to our technical drawings, to remake or the project with the fountain because it's quite a complicated technical structure as well.

DS: Describe what this sculpture looks like? Seventy-eight bronze funnels?

PM: Well, it looks like… yeah, 78 bronze funnels. [clears throat] You know, frankly speaking, it's very difficult to describe something visual using words. You know, I'm still a visual artist. Well, you know, it's… it's… it's… it's a pyramid, you know? And the first funnel is filled with the stream of water. But every funnel, is important. It's not a usual funnel with the one nose. It's a funnel with the two noses. Every time the water… the stream divides into two. Then, it goes to two funnels, then it divides into four and then goes into six. And then, you can build this structure as long as you want, you know? We only have 12 rows. But then, the idea is that this is… I was working with the metaphor that starting from… from… from the stream, quite a strong stream of water, then finishing with the kind of weak drops of water at the end of the 12th. Well, slowly, you know, and this is kind of an image of exhaustion, you know, that our society, especially democratic societies, are living through right now.

DS: Exhaustion, what do you mean?

PM: Exhaustion? I mean, exhaustion, exhaustion of power, exhaustion of humanity, exhaustion of… exhaustion of democracy, if you want, you know? Because the Western world started to be… suddenly started to be very weak and eager to kind of exchange a little bit of liberty, a little bit of freedom, a little bit of independence for some kind of cheap energy, you know, to keep on going with this kind of everyday comfort. It's very easy now. They started to be dependent on the… on the world which was supplying them energy and was totally based on… on the different principles, total democratic principles.

DS: Why was it so important for you to go to Venice for the Biennale this year?

PM: Well, I knew it would… would have been important for me. But when the war started, I realized myself much more as a citizen than, let's say, as an artist, you know, I realized together with the curators, it's not just me, because the three curators, because this project is definitely is… is a collective work because I wouldn't be able to make it alone. So for us, it was important because Ukraine, especially now at that… that time, at the time of the war, has to be represented as a cultural… as a cultural society. You know, the society with its own culture, as the… as the country with its own culture because no nation… you know, when there is a war between countries, it's mostly the war about… not about even territory, mostly about the way of life, how we want to live and how they want us to live. You know, we want… they don't want to live, and that's the problem. You know, we have different backgrounds, we have different points of view of the quality of life, of the principles of life. That's it.

DS: So, what can you tell us about how your work and that of other Ukrainian artists is being received this year at the Biennale?

PM: Well, you know, I don't have to complain. [chuckle] It was very well-received at the Biennale we gave. Of course, unfortunately, it's also sad things that we got maybe some extra interest because of the situation in the country. And this interest, unfortunately, spread by blood. But at the same time, we realized that we… we attracted quite a big attention, you know, all over the world, you know? And it was… reaction was mostly… not not mostly, but I never, ever had any kind of negative reaction. The only question was, why don't you have any dialogue with the Russian culture right now? And I said that it's impossible to have any kind of dialogue with the so-called Russian culture because Russian culture created the society that is moving towards devastating my country with tanks and missiles, you know? [chuckle] So what kind of culture do they have, and with whom I have to have a dialogue with? I don't know.

DS: How hard is it to be away from Ukraine right now?

PM: Hard. Hard. Yes, we want to go back, and it's difficult. We are… there is not… Definitely, there is not the time to go back to Kharkiv because Kharkiv is not occupied, but it's… it's well-protected, you know? But officials are asking us civilians not to come back because it's much easier to protect the city if there are no civilians inside of it.

DS: Is your family safe?

PM: Well, my family said because my… my son is working as a volunteer in the west of Ukraine. My daughter is living in Kyiv, near Kiev. She was in the part that was not occupied. Somehow, she was lucky. And my mom, we took her with us, and she is near Vienna, and my wife and our cat is with us here in Venice. [chuckle] But now, we have to think about what… what to do next?

DS: Well, Mr. Makov, it's a pleasure to meet you. Enjoy Biennale.

PM: Thank you very much for joining us. Bye-bye.

DS: Thank you. Bye-bye.

PM: Thank you. Bye-bye.

CH: That was Ukrainian artist Pavlo Makov in Venice, Italy. And you can find more on this story, including pictures, on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

GG Volunteer Award

Guests: George Linton, Jon Linton

CH: One social worker described him as someone who raises people's spirits and brings a sense of calm. For decades, George Linton has taken his guitar to nursing homes and hospitals, to sing for patients. Now, the 96-year-old troubadour has been recognized by the Governor General, with a Sovereign's Medal for Volunteers. We reached George Linton in Toronto, along with his son Jon Linton. The two of them were in Ottawa for the ceremony last week.

DS: George, congratulations on your award.

GEORGE LINTON: Well, I appreciate you mentioning that, [JL chuckles] and I'm happy to have received it. And I'm sure there's other… others, many others that deserve it every bit as much as I might.

DS: John, what was it like for you and what does it mean for you to see your dad recognized in this way?

JOHN LINTON: Well, it was just a wonderful experience, of course. It seemed to be a sort of fitting culmination for all the volunteer hours that he's… he's put in. It was… I was just really pleased and felt wonderful.

DS: Now, George, what is it that you do for patients when you go into hospitals and nursing homes around Toronto?

GL: What do I do is I somehow produce a sound that may be enjoyed. [DS laughs heartily] And as you probably realize, that we all realize, that patients in hospitals have a experience that is mostly unpleasant and mostly can be unpleasant for hour after hour. And that music, and particularly if they have music in their backgrounds, can be most enjoyed. And maybe singing can be most enjoyed. Or maybe even they as patients can raise a voice.

DS: And you play the guitar, I understand?

GL: That's right.

DS: What do you like to --

GL: Which I have right here. [chuckling]

DS: Oh, maybe we're going to hear some in a little bit.

GL: Well, okay.

DS: When you play for them in, you know, hospitals and nursing homes, do you take requests?

GL: Yes, I may not always know what they ask for. A very common request as "You are my Sunshine". Perhaps more than any other song, that song is requested.

DS: That's the greatest hit?

GL: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

DS: And what… what if you don't know the song? Or maybe it's in a different language or from a different culture?

GL: Well, that… that can happen, yeah. And generally, when that happens, I just be quiet. I do not attempt to try to say or play the instrument along with them because I can spoil the effect of the singer's… singer's words [DS chuckles] and… and the… the melody. So, it's… it's a question of learning when to be quiet [laughing all around].

DS: You're being… you're being humble.

JL: I should interject here and say that on occasion, you have tried to learn; you've come home and tried to learn that song in their language. And then, the next week or whenever, come back and play it for them.

GL: Yes, that's… that's true.

JL: Yeah.

DS: Now, George, I know that COVID has disrupted this. But before then, how many hospitals and nursing homes do you figure you've played at and how often?

GL: Well, for a period of 30 years, probably three or four… a three or four visits to various hospitals, some to the same hospital.

DS: Three to four a week?!

GL: Sorry, three for a week. Yes. Uh-huh.

DS: So we're talking hundreds, if not thousands, of visits.

GL: Well, I don't know hundreds of thousands of visits. [JL chuckles] I do know there's a lot of visits. There's no doubt about that.

DS: A lot of visits.

GL: Yeah.

JL: I do know, Dad, that in the earlier days, you were probably visiting almost every day, a different nursing home or hospital, doing your thing. Certainly, six days a week, you'd be out and about. And sometimes, two in a single day.

GL: Well, that's true.

JL: Yeah.

GL: Yeah.

DS: George, I understand you used to be in this journalism racket. You were a stock market reporter [GL laughs] at the… at the Globe and Mail.

GL: I love that, journalism racket. [chuckles loudly] it's a racket!

DS: It's just you and us… you and I talking here, right?

GL: Yeah.

DS: [chuckling] So, how did you start doing this? How did you start playing and singing in the hospitals?

GL: Well, I think I probably had a friend who was in the… in the hospital, on Hospital Row. I was playing music someplace else, I think, and I carried the guitar with me. And he was a singer and a guitar player.

DS: So you just happened to be visiting with the guitar and thought, maybe I'll --

GL: Yeah.

DS: strike up a song.

GL: Yeah, that's… that's right.

DS: John, what do you remember about growing up and having your dad's music around you?

JL: Well, we were a fairly musical family, so there was always… the guitar always came out after dinner, and there were many songs. We also had a sort of network of family friends who would gather together once every few weeks for a musical evening. Sometimes those went on [chuckling] well into the wee hours of the morning, so there was always a lot of sort of folk songs and country music songs and that sort of thing being sung in the family. And it was great! It was great sort of growing up in that kind of tradition and being part of that. And I sort of play a bit of guitar and piano as well, as do my two sisters, as does my mother. So it's very much a musical tradition in the family.

DS: I love it. And, George, you said you have your guitar there with you.

GL: That's right.

DS: Is there a song you'd like to sing for us?

GL: Sure. The first thing comes to mind is "Side by Side".

DS: Let's hear it.

GL: We'll just get hold of the guitar and see if we can do a verse. [JL chuckles]

Music: "Side by Side" by Patsy Cline, as performed live by George Linton

GL: Oh! We ain't got a barrel of money. Maybe we're ragged and funny.

But we'll travel along. Singing a song. Side by side. Through all kinds of weather.

What if the sky should fall? Just as long as we're together. It really doesn't matter at all. When they've all had their quarrels and parted. We'll be the same as we started.

Just traveling along. Singing a song. Side by side.

DS: loved it! loved it. [JL chuckles]

GL: Bum ba da bum bum. Bum bum!

DS: [laughing all around] I love it, George.

GL: Well, thank you.

DS: What do you hope your story and your recognition here inspires in other people?

GL: Other musicians, particularly to do the same kind of thing in hospitals. I've mentioned this to musicians, and often I get the reply, that's too difficult. That's too much for me. And I'm not sure exactly what musicians mean when they say that. But I encourage them to go ahead, try it, and they'll… they will enjoy it, as well as the patients and staff.

DS: Well, John, how about you? You say your musical, you play a little. Do you sing?

JL: Well, I try; I creak along. And, yeah, it's very inspiring what Dad is doing. Something that I may do myself someday when I get that point. And hopefully, others will get the message too.

DS: Well, I love this very much, and I thank you both for speaking with us.

JL: Thank you!

GL: Well, thanks a lot, Dave.

DS: Okay. All the best.

GL: Bye-bye.

CH: That was George Linton, a recipient of the Sovereign's Medal for Volunteers, and his son Jon Linton. They're both in Toronto.

[Music: Bright instrumental]

Guy Lafleur Disco

CH: Every day, Guy Lafleur arrived at 9 a.m. -- long before anyone else -- and kept working until 3 a.m. And his teammates watched in awe. "It was his baby all the way," one said. "He didn't want to put up with second-best." And he didn't get second-best. In fact, Mr. Lafleur's dogged determination and consummate coolness resulted in the finest hockey-related disco album ever made.

[Music: "Savoir Patiner" by Guy Lafluer]

CH: This is "Savoir Patiner" -- or "Know How To Skate". That’s track 2 from the French-language version of the 1979 album Lafleur! Which has been getting some attention since the hockey legend dies last week. Eight tracks of groovy disco music, provided by some of Montreal's hottest musicians and singers. Over which Guy Lafleur delivered spoken-word hockey tips. You might find that combination a little… incongruous. But when that album was released, both disco and Guy Lafleur were at their peak. So someone at a record company decided to put them together on a record, include a poster of a shirtless Mr. Lafleur, and sell it for $9.99. Seems like a cynical move, but Guy LaFleur wasn't cynical about it at all. He thought it was a perfect way to inspire young fans, as he told the Montreal Gazette at the time. Kids who love hockey usually love music too, especially disco. And as I mentioned, he did not phone it in. In total, he spent 75 hours recording his vocals in French and English. For perspective, the entire album is less than 35 minutes long. So, the songs may not have quite worked, but Mr. LaFleur sure did. It's just who he was. And if his earnest explanations of hockey didn't suit the dance floor, well, he never was just about talking a good game.

[Music: Horns]

Part 2: HK Press Awards, Basketball Origin Story

HK Press Awards

Guest: Shibani Mahtani

CH: For decades, the Hong Kong Foreign Correspondents' Club has been a beacon of democracy -- highlighting the need to speak truth to power. But now, the club itself is facing criticism for knuckling under to power. It has just suspended its annual Human Rights Press Awards, citing fears of unintentionally violating the city's national security law. That doesn't sit well with some club members, who've resigned in protest. Among them is Shibani Mahtani. She's the Washington Post's most recent South Asia bureau chief, and she won the award in 2020. We reached Ms. Mahtani in Hong Kong.

DS: Shibani, what message do you think the Hong Kong Foreign Correspondents Club has sent with the suspension of these awards?

SHIBANI MAHTANI: I think that they have essentially said with this decision that we can no longer really operate in the same environment in Hong Kong and, you know, as a club that is based here, that it does not feel safe enough to even give out awards to journalists in the city. And I think that that really speaks volumes.

DS: Well, how so? I mean, how does it change the mission of the club overall if they suspend the awards?

SM: Right. So the Foreign Correspondents Club in Hong Kong, its core mission is to uphold and promote press freedom. And to that end, the Correspondents Club has many committees. Press Freedom Committee is one of them. And I am on that committee, or I was until… until yesterday. And so, over the past year in Hong Kong, you know, we have seen so much disappear. We've seen Apple Daily, owned by Jimmy Lai, close down, and two more organizations -- Stand News and Citizen News -- as well. And so, in that context, I think the club's board felt that they could not go on with the awards and award it to organizations that might be legally problematic in today's Hong Kong. And I think the really sad thing is, you know, a lot of people rely on the FCC and foreign journalists to sort of do a little bit more than the local journalists can do to provide a bit of space, to open up that space for four local journalists here in Hong Kong who are definitely under a significant amount of pressure. And so… so yeah, it's been… it's been really disappointing to see.

DS: That pressure, I mean, the club's president, Keith Richburg, has said that there are new red lines operating in Hong Kong affecting what is and isn't permissible in journalism. Given the arrests we've seen in Hong Kong, isn't it understandable that the club wants to avoid intentionally violating the law?

SM: Yeah, I mean, I think… I think the problem is these red lines are so vague by design, right? And so, what you've seen all across Hong Kong are efforts to sort of tow that line largely through self-censorship because the lines are not made very clear for us. And I think that has led to a lot of, you know, self-correction without anybody needing to be told explicitly what they can do, what they can't do. And you know, in many ways, that's the situation preferable to authorities in Hong Kong because, you know, it allows them to say, well, look, we're not closing stuff, we're not forcing things to disband, we're not shutting things down. But the reality is, so many are just doing it themselves.

DS: What are you hoping your resignation from the board will accomplish?

SM: That's a good question. I mean, I think it's really difficult in this… in this current environment in Hong Kong to… to change too much. When I signed up to be part of the FCC's board, which I was for two years, and then, later on, continued with the Press Freedom Committee, you know, I was really hoping to advance press freedom in Hong Kong. I was really hoping to, you know, have a hand in drafting statements. In, you know, doing sort of workshops for young journalists. For awarding young journalists as well. You know, the Human Rights Press Awards, one of the categories I judged this year were the student awards, things like that. Were very important to me. I just don't see how I can continue doing it within this… this framework, right? And I think that's what a lot of the rest of us felt as well that, you know, in this environment where you have a Press Club that cannot put out statements, that cannot give awards, then sort of what are we doing here? Maybe we should really have a think and figure out what our role can be.

DS: Now, you won a Press Freedom Award in 2020 for a piece on the use of force by police and the lack of accountability in Hong Kong. What did it mean to you to see that work recognized?

SM: You know, in that piece, we… we hoped to do what wasn't really being done at a higher level in Hong Kong. You know, at the time in 2019, a lot of people called for an independent investigation into police and into police action, right? And, at that time, there was so much, you know, material out there, though. So much of open-source information. There were videos we could… we could study frame by frame. And we got leaked the internal use of force guidelines from a few officers who felt like something was… was wrong in the force at the time. And, yeah, to get that recognized was… was a huge honour because obviously, the police were understandably not very happy with our work when it… when it… when it came out. So, it showed that you know, we were still being sort of supported and honoured by a larger journalist community within Hong Kong. And, yeah, that meant a lot.

DS: I know you posed this question online, perhaps rhetorically, but would awarding a prize to that piece today be in violation of the law?

SM: Yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone knows the answer to that question. And, again, I think all of that's by design. The laws are so, so unclear, even with the current cases ongoing in the courts right now involving Apple Daily and Stand News. There is so much left untested and so much left to the powers that be to… to decide, right? And it's… it's a situation that's understandably very, very hard to navigate. But, yeah, I mean, I think for us, we're still trying to do the best we can do and sort of record what's happening here the best we can.

DS: The announcement of the winners for this prize had been slated for May 3rd, which is World Press Freedom Day. Given what's happened here, what does this say about press freedom in Hong Kong? And… and how will you mark World Press Freedom Day?

SM: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely been a very sad week for all of us who care about press freedom, who care about the Foreign Correspondents Club, you know, who care about our role here as foreign journalists. And, yeah, I do think there's obviously an irony of when it was meant to be announced and the fact that it will not be announced now. Yeah, I mean, I think it's just incumbent on us who are still writing to just keep documenting, right? I mean, it was… it was notable that so many publications covered today the cancellation of these awards. I think there are many here who are still trying… trying to do the work, and they should be supported. And, you know, I hope to be able to do that in any way.

DS: Shibani, we'll leave it there. Happy World Press Freedom Day. Whatever the irony.

SM: Thank you.

DS: All right. Bye-bye.

SM: Bye-bye.

CH: Shibani Mahtani is The Washington Post's most recent South Asia bureau chief and a past winner of the Hong Kong Foreign Correspondents' Club's Human Rights Press Award. She has just resigned from the board of that club. We reached Ms. Mahtani in Hong Kong.

[Music: Instrumental]

MB Hockey Assault

CH: Decades have passed, but Greg Gilhooly is still trying to get answers about what happened to him as a teenager. While playing for a junior hockey team in Winnipeg, Mr. Gilhooly says he was victimized by convicted sexual predator Graham James. And for a long time, he says he focused on failures in the hockey community that left him vulnerable. But Mr. James wasn't just a coach -- he was also a substitute teacher. So now, Greg Gilhooly is asking questions about what his school could have done.

[sc]

GREG GILHOOLY: It doesn't happen immediately, right? That… I now know the technical term is grooming, but that led to the start of a relationship where Graham invited me out and we would meet for coffee, milk, hot chocolate, whatever. And he would tell me his theory of life and schooling and hockey theory, and why my parents were no good and why my hockey coaches were no good. And over time, it led to a relationship where he became my most trusted mentor. And the next thing I knew, I was in the middle of something I couldn't get out of, no. About 12 years ago, I finally came forward, relatively late in life, certainly long after it had ended. I've along the way become someone who the media contacts when stories like this come out. So, the first thing that comes to my mind is, well, look, the problem we have is an organization or an institution that thinks of its own self-preservation first and the victim second, then that's not good. I then look at my own situation and I realize that I have let the Graham James story sit solely as a hockey failure and not as a school failure. I reached out to the school board when I came forward a decade ago and said, look, I'm not thinking of suing anyone. I'm not formally going to go after anyone. But do you maybe kind of sort of think you share some of the responsibility here? And I was shut down and I just… I walked away. The school board clearly ended up with a monster in its midst. And then beyond that, what did it do when it found out that one of its teachers had been a serial child sexual predator? DId the school board conduct an investigation? Did the school board go back and take a look at any of the things that it could have done along the way to prevent this, including did any of its teachers or trustees, or even possibly the chair of its school board know of who Graham James was and what he was capable of at the time? If anyone in a position of authority within the school board knew, why didn't they stop him before we went off and abused other kids, including me?

[/sc]

CH: That was Greg Gilhooly, speaking with Holly Karuk of CBC Manitoba. Mr. Gilhooly also says he asked officials at his former school division for compensation -- and for a chance to speak with teachers about how to spot the signs of grooming. But they turned him down.

[Music: String quartet]

Basketball Origin Story

Guest: Scott Flansburg

[sc]

[Music: A dated folk jig]

MAN: Is this some kind of Canadian joke, Sir? I mean, I know you're the instructor and everything, but we can't carry the ball? How can we get a decent shot at the… peach basket? [men laugh and scowl]

JAMES NAISMITH: All right. Maybe we can allow a carry of a couple of steps.

MAN #2: Mr. Naismith, it sure slows things down having to climb up here every time.

JN: Well, then let's cut the bottom out of the basket.

MAN #2: Yeah, but I need these baskets back.

[Sound: A cutting sound gives way to inspirational, instrumental music]

NARRATOR: A hundred years after James Naismith from Almonte, Ontario, invented it, basketball was being played by hundreds of millions of people around the world.

[/sc]

CH: Generations of Canadians probably recognize that classic Heritage Minute. The neat and tidy 60-second story of James Naismith -- the Canadian from Almonte, Ontario who invented the game of basketball in 1891 -- when he decided to cut the bottoms out of peach baskets. For decades, nobody has dared dunk on that airtight story. But Scott Flansburg thinks the James Naismith story is a myth. For years, Mr. Flansburg has been researching the origins of basketball. And he traces the history back to his hometown of Herkimer, New York -- and a 16-year-old Swedish immigrant who tossed cabbages into crates. We reached Scott Flansburg in Scottsdale, Arizona.

DS: Scott, we just played a very popular Heritage Minute clip that celebrates Canadian James Naismith and the story that has aired across public television in Canada for years. What do you think when you hear that clip?

SCOTT FLANSBURG: It's amazing to me. And it's… first, it's a great production. Really well done. They were representing what they've been told and the narrative that's been out there. And I can see that same type of production for this story that comes out of Herkimer, except that it's one year before Naismith and Springfield.

DS: All right, we're going to… we're going to get to this challenging countervailing theory in a moment, but remind listeners, who is James Naismith?

SF: Well, he's supposedly the inventor of basketball, but more importantly, he was working at the Springfield YMCA in the fall of 1891 and '92, and they published a triangle newsletter. And in January of 1892 introduced basketball, and his name was on that article.

DS: So what made you start doubting that well-established story and start researching this other alternative origin story that you're putting forward?

SF: In 2019, I was home taking care of my father. He was sick and eventually passed away. But during that time, I found this book in Herkimer called I Grew Up with Basketball by Frank J. Baselo. And it was an accounting of basketball starting in Herkimer, then being sent to Springfield. And I read it, and I just couldn't believe it because I grew up in Herkimer, and I'd never heard of this. And so, I was like, you know, if I can prove this book is true, it would help our village so much. And so, I just started doing the research, and we put a team together, and the evidence kept falling together, Dave. It was really crazy. I really didn't think it would come true. I was… I thought it would be easier to dispel. You know, just to dismiss it. But it just kept adding up, and Naismith's story kept falling apart, and the dates don't add up, the signatures. There's just a lot of inconsistencies in the story.

DS: Okay, I'm feeling some… some national honour is at stake here. But… but let me ask you to go through the specific timeline of what the story has been and what you say you found.

SF: Right. So, Dave Smith January 1892, Springfield Triangle. That's the beginning of basketball. And then they backed it up and said it was December of 1891 years later. But in Herkimer, this young man, Lambert Will, who was running the YMCA in Herkimer and invented basketball. What happened, the actual origin story, is that Lambert Will, as a 16-year-old boy, was sorting cabbage for his mother.

DS: Cabbage?!

SF: And she had cabbage. And she had two baskets, one for soft cabbage and one for hard. And he was throwing them in there. And he was at the market later that day. And there was a bushel there and some cabbage. And he took the… the bushel and put it on a stepladder a little bit higher. And him and his buddies were trying to make the cabbage into the basket. And then the next day at the YMCA is when he put the cabbage or the basket up on the wall, and they brought out the medicine ball and started trying to play basketball. And they played each other for two months, figuring out all these different rules, and actually had their first game on February 7th, 1891. And continued to play that game with other neighbouring villages and towns over the next few months. And there's actually a picture of a basketball team from Herkimer with a basketball with the years 1891-92 on it, which is very confusing to the narrative of Naismith saying it started in February of '92.

DS: Okay, so what would your Heritage Moment sound like then?

SF: Well, it would be very similar because the story is told very well in the Basloe book, I Grew Up with Basketball, about those first moments, in particular every person's name on each team. These names have survived all of our research and forensics. These were the guys. You'll see there are several inconsistencies with the Naismith story. And his invention story changes throughout his life.

DS: Well, okay. So, a lot of Canadians take great pride in this history. And I understand you've been working with two sports historians on a book this year called NAIS-MYTH, as in M.Y.T.H. How can you actually prove that our version is false? I'm hearing the time difference, but they both worked at the YMCA.

SF: Um-hmm.

DS: Couldn't they have known each other? Weren't they working in conjunction?

SF: Yes. And the way that we figured it out is that in the fall of 1891, James Naismith and his boss, Mr. Gulick, they sent out of a flyer asking for people if they had any games that would be good to have during the winter because it's too cold to go outside and to give the folks some cardio. And when Lambert Will got that in Herkimer, he sent in basketball. And he never heard back from them. And then, in January of 1892, James Naismith published it in the Triangle in Springfield. And his name was on it as the author of the article. And I think that's how he originally got connected to this.

DS: But how convinced are you that… that Lambert Will invented the game as opposed to they were all kind of developing it over the previous years, and… and in 1891 came down to simply the fact that the rules were published in a flyer?

SF: Yes, a great question. And we found an affidavit signed by Lambert Will from the 1940s. And he proclaims and explains exactly what he said to Springfield and the exact dates that he sent it. We didn't conjure this up, but I didn't believe it either at first, Dave, for the longest time. I was like, there's no way this could be true and be hidden this long, and it just keeps adding up.

DS: So what do you hope your findings in this… this potential new status of the birthplace of basketball could do for your hometown?

SF: Well, we're 28 miles from Cooperstown, New York, and the Baseball Hall of Fame. And it would be amazing to have a place to celebrate the contribution that Lambert Will did for basketball, including the first rim, the first net and the first backboard. And, we believe, the first game. Make Herkimer this place where all these leagues and groups get together to celebrate and come in and shoot baskets where the first basket was actually made.

DS: With cabbages?

SF: Yes! [DS chuckles] We have… we have a cabbage contest. That's right, Dave. [chuckling]

DS: Scott, I don't think I'm allowed to concede the point of history, but you make a compelling three-point shot. So, thank you.

SF: Thank you, Dave. All I ask is please just consider reading the book. It's a short read. It just displays all the evidence. It doesn't… we don't carry on about anything. This is just strictly to set the record straight and give people a chance to see the narrative that has been hidden for over 130 years.

DS: Thanks so much. It's really nice to meet you on the radio.

SF: Thanks, Dave.

DS: Bye-now.

DS: Bye.

CH: Hmmm. Scott Flansburg is one of the leaders of a new campaign to recognize Herkimer, New York, as the birthplace of basketball. We reached him in Scottsdale, Arizona.

[Music: Indie rock]

Louisville Kid Band

CH: It's been a long time coming, but the Louisville Leopards are back. They're not actual leopards, to be clear. But catching a glimpse of them could be about as exhilarating. The Louisville Leopards are a group of kid percussionists from Kentucky. This weekend, they were on stage for the first time since January, 2020. The concert is an ordinarily annual affair known as "The Big Gig." Of course, for the past two years, it's been stymied by COVID. And for members of the Leopards, that's been a blow. In the words of 11-year-old Juneapple Hopkins, "I don't know what I would do without the Leopards. In the five years that I've been playing... they've changed my life entirely." But when you listen to them, you can hear why. According to group founder Diane Downs, the kids in the band all play more than one instrument, and none of them read music. Instead, they feel it. And if their last "Big Gig" performance, from 2019, is any indication, audiences should too.

[Music: A song that sounds a lot like a very heavy percussive version of “Talking About my Generation” by The Who]

Part 3: 2010 Mosque Move To NWT, Toronto Seed Discovery, FOA: Hell Michigan Cat Mayor

2010 Mosque Move To NWT

CH: If you want to travel from Winnipeg to Inuvik, you can make it there in a day -- with a few plane stops along the way. That's if you're a person. If you're a mosque, it'll take 22 days. Or at least it did back in 2010 when Muslims in Inuvik needed a new mosque. It was built in Winnipeg. And then, it had to travel some 4,000 kilometres over land and water before reaching its final destination. From our archives, here's one of the organizers speaking with the CBC.

[sc]

MAN: My name is Ahmed [indecipherable]. I’m managing the project, which is Inuvik Mosque. We are right now at the building site or the mosque site. With the help of town of Inuvik, we managed to buy these two lots. We are a small number here. We couldn't really raise more than the land itself. The land we purchased from… 100 per cent from the community in Inuvik. And then, we got help from Winnipeg, actually in town of Thomson. They have a bigger number. They helped us in getting the building. We're hopefully getting it by the end of September.

REPORTER: Maybe we could talk a bit about the muslim community in Inuvik. How many families would you say live here?

MAN: Pretty sure, plus or minus 80 people?

REPORTER: So we see the… the site here. There’s some gravel on the ground. Do you have a sense yet of what the final building will look like once it's built?

MAN: We're having it as just a large mobile home or modular home. It's fabricated in one of the popular companies in Winnipeg.

REPORTER: So maybe people are imagining something with the minaret at the top.

MAN: I don't think we're going that far because we can’t just afford it.

REPORTER: And right now, there is a centre, a trailer, which I believe is used by the community. Can you tell us about the facility you're using now?

MAN: We have about 50 years old regular trailer, which we have been using for years. I mean, since I came here, it has been for use. Now, as you know, it's getting… the community is getting bigger, newborn kids and grown-up kids. It's not enough to handle regular prayers and also community feeds and get together. So that's why it was the idea to get a bigger place.

REPORTER: And you're saying once it arrives, you'll have a big opening ceremonies here?

MAN: Yeah, we will. Sure, we'll invite people in town here to share with us this happy occasion.

[/sc]

CH: Twelve years later, that piece of history has become a new children's book. Shazia Afzal is a teacher and the author of Journey of the Midnight Sun. We reached her in Mississauga, Ontario.

DS: Shazia, when did you first hear about the journey of this mosque from Winnipeg to Inuvik?

SHAZIA AFZAL: I heard it in 2010 when it was happening. That was when I was teaching at the school, and I wanted to do… I told my teachers, no, let's do a story about a mosque. And there was… there were no books. There was no storybook, no picture book, about a mosque. So one of my teachers said, Shazia, look at this. It's a news article. We can talk about this. Like, I was amazed. I was amazed. What?! A mosque travelling?! Go ahead, teach it. And I took all the printouts and kept them safe because I felt this has to be told to children. There were so many hurdles. So many hurdles in this journey. But because people were there to help, everyone was together, it was possible.

DS: Well, take us back. Take us through those hurdles and how it finally arrived in Inuvik.

SA: So, when first it started its journey from Winnipeg because the mosque was high and it was wide, it was… it would get… get in the way of the wires, the power lies, the hydro wires, that were going from top. People had to come, the electricians had to come in with bucket trucks, and they had to push the wires up and hold them up so the mosque could cross. Similarly, some of the places where there were big highway signs, the mosque couldn't cross, so they had to reroute it. Some places, they had little signboards, which would damage the mosque. They had to remove… take them off so the mosque could cross. And similarly, some places where there was only a single lane. It was a wide load, so the cars had to stay on the side, park on the side, wait for the mosque to cross. But for me, the biggest one was it was a time crunch because they had… their mosque had to get to Hay River by September, a certain time before the Mackenzie River freezes. Because if it froze, the mosque would stay there for a whole year until the river unfroze. So, they… they had to get there. And they were getting late at every step. But the worst was when they were crossing a bridge which was under construction, and the ground was soft. So, the mosque almost, almost toppled over.

DS: It almost flipped?

SA: To one side. It almost flipped. And that's it. It would be gone. Everything gone. But then the, you know, the excavation machines they came in, they held it in place, and they gradually and slowly pulled the truck out. Like, everyone was helping along the way to get this to its destination. And that's Canada. That's kind of it. It was beautiful.

DS: And it doesn't end in Hay River. How is it going to get to Inuvik?

SA: So it was going to be put on a barge. So, they had to delay the barge. The last barge went on a certain day, but then they waited for two more days for the… for the mosque to arrive. And when it arrived, they put it on the barge. And then, by boat, they took the mosque all the way to Inuvik. So it took 22 days all together to get there.

DS: How well do you think other Muslims know this story of… of the Mosque of the Midnight Sun?

SA: Not many, I'm afraid. I think not many. Maybe at the time it was happening. People didn't know it. But then I think, as like every other story, things get forgotten. And I… and I don't want this to be forgotten. This is just a beautiful story of communities being together. One good thing that happened when I… when I shared that, hey, this book is coming out, one of the parents of the children that I teach emailed me and said that, you know, I was in Inuvik, and I prayed in that trailer truck. But now, when he went back after a couple of years, he prayed in this mosque, which was there. [chuckle] So, a nice connection to the story.

DS: What made you want to write a children's book about it?

SA: Because of the message. Children are… they are honest, and they… they just take things as they are. And if you give them a beautiful message, they will take it. They don't have biases. Adults do. So I believe in teaching them community and helping and the togetherness at the younger age.

DS: And how have children reacted to this story so far?

SA: They love it. I have… one of my friend’s friend sent me a picture of our son. He read the book, and then he took out Lego, and he made a mosque with the Lego and the truck. And, Mom, look! I'm taking the mosque to Inuvik.

DS: [chuckling] So it's Ramadan right now.

SA: Yes.

DS: What messages from this story do you think help reinforce celebration at Ramadan?

SA: Because in Ramadan, we spend more time in the mosque, more days, more nights in the mosque and mosques are always packed up. And in the book, at the end, when the mosque is ready, I think it was Remembrance Day. They held a feast, and everyone was invited in there. All the First Nations were there, the pastor, the church people, the neighbours, everyone was invited for a feast at the… at the mosque. And that's what you do in the mosque, especially in Ramadan. It's a feast in the evenings. Most of the people break their fast there. And on the weekends we have dinners there as well, and everyone's welcome. So, it just links so well with… with mosques and the story all together in Ramadan.

DS: This mosque has had quite a journey, but so have you in that, you know, from learning of this to a decade later, now publishing a book. What have you learnt along the way?

SA: First of all, I think that writing is a process. [chuckling] It's a long journey. But second thing, I think, I believe to be in positive, you know, if you have a dream to do something and you keep working at it, you do get there. It's perseverance. You cannot give up on your dreams. You cannot give up on good things and good ideas. You have to keep at it. And someday, they will happen. The story was in my files for… for like, you know, 10 years until I was able to hone my skills and practice writing. And, okay, now I'm going to work on the story.

DS: Well, it is a lovely story, and I want to say thank you for telling us about it. And I think I can say Ramadan Mubarak.

SA: Thank you so much! [chuckle] Thank you.

DS: Nice to meet you on the radio.

SA: Thank you so much, Dave.

DS: Bye now.

SA: Bye.

CH: Shazia Afzal is the author of Journey of the Midnight Sun. She was in Mississauga, Ontario.

[Music: Ambient]

Not Cheese Cheese

CH: If you've browsed the grocery aisles lately, you've probably noticed that almost every item has a plant-based alternative these days. Scientists have been busy in their labs, and have fine-tuned all kinds of recipes to the point where there's a pretty tasty substitute for most foodstuffs. I say most -- because, well, cheese. There are options out there. But the general consensus is the cheese alternatives just don't… uh, cut it. But University of Guelph researcher Stacie Dobson hopes to change that. Ms. Dobson has been working on a "cheese analogue" that she thinks might finally be up to snuff.

[sc]

STACIE DOBSON: So we've been working on kind of creating a new plant-based cheese. Something that we've seen on the market is a lot of these plant-based cheeses, they don't stretch or melt or also have that nutritional… high nutritional value we're after. So, we wanted to kind of use the fundamental knowledge that we have about these plant protein ingredients and create something that has the desired textures and tastes that people are desiring in those plant-based cheeses.

ANDREW COPPOLINO: How long have you been doing this? Like, where… at what stage… is this, like, the third iteration of the product? Is it the second? Like, you know, [SD chuckles] is this something that's been going on for five years or for 10 years?

SD: Um, I’d say I think the last two years is kind of we had that shift of focus to plant-based cheese. And the number of batches I've made, my gosh, I think it's quite extensive is that you add this type of protein one time and you say, okay, let me mark down how much it stretches, how much it melts and how much… how hard it is, almost as if you were biting into it. And those properties, and then I add something different to it and say, oh wow, we got even better stretch. We got even better melt. And so, it's been a definitely a long process to kind of understand how everything works together, and we're still learning new things as we're going. But I think the base formulations in the knowledge that we have now is definitely helping us to make those changes faster and be able to make these products for these companies on a much faster scale.

AC: How convinced are you at this point of what the result is here of your research? In terms of the palate, in terms of the mouthfeel, all of those important parts of food?

SD: Yeah! So, part of the research that we do is we compare it to the current cheeses that are on the market, even the plant-based alternatives, but also the dairy alternatives. And we say this is what these cheeses can do, what can ours? And so, what's exciting about kind of the food science world is that we can change the properties of the cheese. So I can make a cheese that has maybe more of a drier texture similar to Parmesan, versus one that you want to be ooey-gooey and melty, like mozzarella or something like a cheese slice if that's what you're after. So that's kind of what's unique about these formulations is just by tailoring a few ingredients, we can make it have the properties that you're after.

[/sc]

CH: University of Guelph researcher Stacie Dobson speaking with CBC reporter Andrew Coppolino about the plant-based "cheese" she’s developing.

[Music: “The Mini-Update Theme”]

Toronto Seed Discovery

Guest: Shannon Baker

CH: Since 2018, crews in Toronto have been digging, to give the Don River a new mouth. That end result is kind of exciting. But the process, generally, is not. Insofar as it's just weeks, months, and years of digging. By this point, the workers don't expect any variation in that routine. Which is why, in the midst of their endless digging, they were so interested to discover some unusual plants growing way, way underground. Shannon Baker is overseeing the project. She's the director of parks and public realm with Waterfront Toronto.

DS: Shannon, when did your team realize that these were not your everyday weeds?

SHANNON BAKER: So, we… we discovered the plants in the summer of last year, and they didn't look like your everyday weeds. They don't look like, you know, the dandelions that blow in on your lawn.

DS: What do they look like?

SB: They're sort of spiky cattails and bulrushes. So cattails are long, you know, grass-like leaves, and they get that brown kind of cigar-shaped seed pod on the top of it. And the bulrushes are almost spider-like, very dark green kind of spreading form. And, you know, they… they looked like something special when the contractors came across them on the site. The contractors knew that they… they weren't your everyday weed. And so they called in us, and everybody had a look at them and got really excited. We're also working with the Toronto Region Conservation Authority. And so, they brought in botanists and had a look, a little bit closer look, and discovered that these were not your everyday plant. They were possibly some of the original Marsh plants from the Ashbridge's Marsh that was there over 100 years ago and has been filled in. That was filled in in the early 1900s. And through the course of… of excavating all of this material, these plants were given the opportunity through exposure to light and water, ponding, to… to germinate.

DS: So over 100 years old in this location. Are these rare species? Have they stopped growing elsewhere in the area?

SB: They're not. No, they're not necessarily rare species. The thing that makes them really special is the fact that they've been lying there dormant for 100 years, sort of frozen in time. So, the plants were under about seven metres of fill. You know, they've they haven't been breeding, they haven't been hybridizing. So, genetically, they're… they are sort of a moment in time, a perfect moment in time in terms of their botanical makeup.

DS: So you've been able to capture some of these or at least in seed form, what are you doing with them?

SB: Mm-hmm. So, we… we’ve transplanted some of the physical plants. So it was about 250 plants that we found on the sites, and those were dug up and taken over to another park in Toronto that's… that's very close to the site called Tommy Thompson Park. And they have a lot of marshes. And so, that's perfect habitat for these plants to go into. So they've been moved over there.

DS: So, what does it mean to be able to have this, you know, biodiversity, this sort of time capsule of biodiversity, possibly returning to Toronto's waterfront?

SB: Yeah, it's a really special opportunity because we're working on this naturalization project. And it's a $1.2 billion landscape infrastructure project that's going to flood-protect areas of downtown Toronto and is going to build this one kilometre long length of river. And these plants…. actually having these plans and having the seeds that we’ll be able to plant into the marshes that we're going to create as part of this project along the length of the river means that we will have, you know, that sort of physical touchstones from the original landscape. We are creating wetlands. And these plants, again, will be a really special link back to what was there originally. A pretty amazing testament to the… to the regenerative power of… of nature that these seeds could lie, you know, for 100 years and then spring to life again. It's pretty fantastic. And we've also been able to salvage some of the soil, the peat material and the soils that these plants were growing in and those have been taken over to a lab at the University of Toronto, to the Ecology and Evolutionary Biology Department, and they've got 80 buckets of soil that they're working on in their lab, getting… you know, creating the conditions again for germination. So, working with moisture levels and light levels to see if they can get more… more plants to sprout over there and see if there are other… other species that came up. The two that were most prolific on the site were hard simplerush and the cattails. But there were some other species that came up a little bit more sporadically, some sedges and other marsh plants. And there was one butternut seed that was also discovered. And, again, that's really, really interesting because that's an endangered species. And, again, that nut’s been been hiding under about seven metres of field for over 100 years.

DS: So with 80 buckets of soil and… and potential seeds being looked at at the lab, what else are you hoping to find?

SB: Well, again, we're hoping to find maybe some different species that that come up. A lot of… a lot of native seeds have very specific conditions that they're looking for in terms of germinating, in terms of, you know, temperatures and light exposure and moisture regimes. So, maybe to the experiments at the lab, some other types of plants will emerge in this material. And the U of T lab is also going to be doing some pollen and seed analysis later on this summer. So again, they might be able to find out some more interesting information botanically about these plants to… to see if, you know, there is anything that's really special or unique about them that has… that has changed, or in this case, hasn't changed over the last 100 years.

DS: Well, Shannon, thanks for telling us about it, and… and happy spring.

SB: Yes, happy spring! [DS chuckles] Thanks very much, Dave.

DS: Thank you. Bye-now.

SB: Bye-bye.

CH: That was Shannon Baker, the director of parks and public realm for Waterfront Toronto.

[Music: Spanish guitar]

FOA: Hell Michigan Cat Mayor

CH: I would love to tell you she won by a whisker. But, unfortunately for that great joke, the mayor of a Michigan town really didn't face much competition before her investiture this weekend. Still, when you consider her credentials, her victory is impressive. Not only does she have no relevant experience, she doesn't even live in the town in question. Plus, she doesn't know Microsoft Excel, and she's a cat. None of that stopped the 70-odd residents of Hell, Michigan from welcoming Jinx the cat as their leader this weekend. Though, they clearly felt that her black coat, demonically large eyes, and willingness to briefly don a pair of devil horns made her a worthy candidate. Well, those things and the 100-dollar donation that entitles pretty much anyone to be mayor of Hell for a day. Jinx was sworn in yesterday and immediately adopted something of a devil-may-care attitude towards governing Hell, before being duly impeached. But as Hell's first pet mayor, she's also by far its most popular. Her 735,000-plus followers on TikTok appreciate that her tenure was documented for, you know, paws-terity. [chuckle] It also puts her in good company, joining the likes of Hell's longtime unofficial mayor, John Colone -- who told us all about Hell when he was trying to sell part of it for $900-thousand dollars back in 2016.

[sc]

JC: We’re Halloween 365 days a year. We have one of Michigan's largest miniature golf courses. We do Hellbilly golf a lot of times. We made our own clubs, and you golf with we paint walnuts white, and that's what you play with. So the six-year-old is just as good as his dad. We have a wedding chapel. We've done about 17 weddings so far this year. A marriage that starts in Hell has nowhere to go but up. We guarantee every marriage if it doesn't work, we'll do it again free for you and your next partner.

CO: And is there a post office there? Can you… can you mail something from Hell?

JC: Yeah, we actually stamp… our postmark reads “Have a Hell of a good day”. And we stamp every piece of mail with, “I’ve been through Hell”, and then we burn every single piece of mail, the corner of it, for added proof it's been through Hell.

CO: And so how do you get to Hell? Is there a bus, or maybe a boat on a river someplace?

JC: Well, no. Not exactly. We have D32, the highway to Hell. It’s paved with good intentions, but it does have a few potholes — just like life itself. Hell is endless.

CO: All right, give me the pitch. What would I get if I was to buy Hell from you?

JC: Are you familiar at all with our university?

CO: You have a university in Hell?

JC: Yeah, Damn U. Fully non-credited. We have degrees in everything from stupidity, people with great hindsight, duct tapeology. So they’d own our university, our wedding chapel, our miniature golf, our stores, you know a bar, a restaurant, canoe and kayak delivery service. You know, we're family-orientated, but we're Michigan's hysterical town. Everybody else is historical. We are hysterical.

CO: All right. Well, we will tell people where they can go to Hell, and how they can go to Hell. Good to talk to you.

JC: Well, thank you so much. And have a Hell of a good day.

CO: Bye-bye.

JC: All right. Bye.

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CH: I wish he’d been better prepared for that interview! John Colone is the unofficial mayor of Hell, Michigan. He spoke with Carol in 2016. This weekend, a black cat named Jinx briefly served as its official mayor, before being impeached. Which probably left her with mixed felines.

April 25, 2022 Episode Transcript

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