Quirks & Quarks

Given the difficulty we're presently experiencing in finding markets for used paper, maybe the time has come to return to paper bags for our groceries (and garbage). We used paper grocery bags for garbage when I was a child. Why not now?

Nice Idea, but the reality is that the /total/ environmental cost of a plastic bag can actually be lower than that of a paper bag. Paper bags tend to get used once while a plastic bag will often be reused. Because plastic bags are lighter and more compact, the energy required to transport them is lower. In most cases, the cost of manufacture is cheaper too.

So what's the solution? I'd like to see /all/ plastic bags be made of bio-degradable plastic with no exceptions for one. Aside from that, of course, consume habits are the real solution. Carry a bag with you, don't take one unless you /have too./ I think I took a new plastic bag at the fruit market about three weeks ago...that's the last time. (They thought it was strange, because in three or four years I've never taken one before.)

Of course, consumer behaviour can't be legislated so a ban is a cheap albeit paternalistic solution.

with plastic we cut down trees ,plastic pollutes if not disposed of properly but htey can be recycled.
we used to have a bin at the supermarket to recycle the bags .where is it now?

Half of those so called "reusable bags" fall apart in the washing machine.and they are a PITA to carry
especially if you buy large items.

You can't compare Rwanda to North America in terms of what kind of policies we can put in place .Life is different here and so different solutions are needed.

Many people here use the bags in wastebaskets.So the impact is actually better than if they had to buy the bags just for that purpose AND use bags for grocery. So to me re-using the plastic and recycling is better .Either that or a biodegradable plastic bag.

So if they ban plastic bags, what are we supposed to use in our kitchens for garbage bags. Paper will not hold the carcass of the chicken dinner very well. Does this ban include large green garbage bags? Even the blue bags that we put our recylables in, are made of plastic. what happens to them?

Would that were so in Canada, where in a place as devoid of trees and green spaces as downtown Toronto, the few trees that the city has planted can often be seen strewn with plastic garbage or shopping bags at any time of the year. It's not just careless in disposing of them but the mere fact that they exist. Non-reusable plastic bags are a blight on humanity and need to be eliminated once and for all. Gotta hand it to the Rwandans. nice post, Bob!

It seems as if banning the plastic bag is the necessary first step. One's memory will improve dramatically when this happens. Having to pay a minimal dollar per bag when forgetful will quickly activate the plactisized brain. We are creatures of habit, and like wayward children, we need to feel uncomfortable before we budge an inch.
I know, because even though I advocate the end of plastic bags, and have three or four canvas bags in my home and two more in my car, I 'forget'. Bite me!

What is wrong with sequestering plastics? Rather than being a contaminent, the main problem with plastic shopping bags is that they constitute a litter (habit) problem. After working for some 20 years on degradable and compostable polyethylene I have come to concur with Tilman Gerngross that the best solution for disposing plastic is to sequester same, i.e. bury the stuff. This in no way suggests that nedless, wasteful and extravagant proliferation should not be curbed.

There is no one magic bullet that "solves" such problems and because the issue is so complex we need to remember that addressing same must also be multi-faceted. Sorry ... no simple and simple-minded solution exists!

What do you use for garbage bags then? I never buy kitchen garbage bags - just use the plastic shopping bags. They're good quality at my local grocery store, but cruddy at some other stores so I use cloth then. I recycle as much as possible and take cloth bags when I don't need garbage bags. I can't see putting chicken and fish bones and wet garbage in paper bags and you can't tie them up easily at the top. Also plastic is good for protecting clothes, GPS, cameras etc in backpacks although I use Ziploc bags for small items. Just curious.

The plastic society continues. Along with today's emphasis on speed and convenience, comes the seemingly un-necessary corollary of obsolescense and trash. With ever greater requirements for packaging mandated by the marketing mavens, the loading up of our landfills is inevitable.

I don't wish for a return to the 'good ole days', they weren't so good, Despite the nostalgia efforts for the 50's and 60's where a lot of people did their growing up. Aside from being a kid then, the joys of adulthood were few and far between.

Since the inability of people to pick up after themselves is so obvious, perhaps regulations would be appropriate.

The economy of convenience, and emphasis on speed and consumerism, is really a solid part of what is wrong.

That being said, I don't know that the rabid ecologist faction is any better. They seem to have decided that the only way to be 'green' is their way, regardless of whether that is practical for other people or not.

At any rate, I've managed to wander away from the plastic bag issue.

I personally use the cloth shopping bags for my weekly grocs, but I admit I take the white plastic ones when I run in during the week. I also miss glass milk and pop bottles which worked fine and provided a little extra work to clean and reuse them. These days that just might be a good thing.

Hahaha! What are you reusable bags doing in the laundry machine!?!? I think the end of plastic bags are closer then people think. I have about 4-6 reusable bags in my house/car at all times for shopping, in case I forget them.

Reusable shopping bags aren't supposed to be used for garbage. And the solution for garbage bags are biodegradable bags. Unfortunately these are a little further away from consumer availability.

But as far as bags in shopping centres and stores I see no reason not to go entirely on reusable bags or recycled paper.

I would love to see plastic bags disappear from grocery stores and fast food stalls. Most of the bags are such poor quality anyway. Often, I'm lucky to make it to my car without the bags falling apart.

I'm gradually changing my habits and thinking about using plastic. They are not really recyclable- from what I've heard the recycling cost is astronomical. They are re-usable to a certain extent. I do admit that I like to use them as trash can liners, but I would find alternate solutions.

I would love to get rid of plastic, I use fabric shopping bags. But ... I use plastic bags for garbage. My rule is: I use old bags for garbage bags, I never buy. Question: if paper garbage bags are not a great option, what is?? Give me a garbage bag that is biodegradable!! (Please)

I remember when we used paper bags to hold garbage as well as groceries and garbage cans held garbage not plastic bags filled with garbage. Garbage cans required cleaning from time to time and paper bags did break. I think baskets and other permanent devices were used for groceries before bags. We didn't use plastic for milk when I was young either. A milkman dropped off full glass bottles then picked up empty ones. By the way, I'm in my 50's. Dependancy on plastic and other diposables has happened fairly quickly and represents a convenience not a requirement. Thanks for the article Bob.

So we have had plastic bags for what 30 to 40 years and we just can't seem to live without them. Ban them, take a shopping bag whether it is paper or cloth or canvas. Put the groceries in a box or recycle the plastic bags into the bins we see in the stores. We have biodegradable plastic and paper bags for garbage.

Yesterday I walked around Vancouver for about 40 minutes. I took a 'litter-picker' (available through Lee Valley Tools) and filled (packed, actually) four grocery bags with litter, mainly plastic. So it's not just Africa that has a problem.

PS: I hate to say that the Fraser Institute is right about anything, but if you charge everyone, say, $.50 per bag, you'd end the problem, probably.

They should make a new plastic bag made to decompose after certain time. Somehow they have to come up with the technology to do it. Made from organic oils and such.

I'm still waiting for a ban on plastics, period. My main pet peeve, along with plastic bags, is all the packaging used for products. Just walk through Rona or Home Depot sometime and check out all the screws, for instance, packaged in little plastic boxes. Go into any video or electronics store and look at the miles of aisles filled with
CDs and DVDs, each one packaged in a plastic box wrapped in more plastic.

Why is there no political will to make manufacturers responsible for their packaging? They're responsible for ruining the planet and they're allowed to get away with it and make money? Why is this acceptable? Why aren't bottles and cans refundable? It seems to me that if the government wants to stimulate the economy it could start by supporting initiatives like collecting and reusing as much packaging as possible whether the venture is public or private.

Some of the previous comments point out the problems with returning to paper bags, not the least of which is the the increased reliance on trees. This problem may be solved or reduced by encouraging the cultivation of hemp which can be used to manufacture paper or fibre, and, like corn, can even be made into a plastic-like material.

Now is the time to come up with imaginative ideas and be willing to try them until one, any, or many of them work. You know what they say about talk.

Food waste should be composted, it doesn't have to be thrown out. Perhaps a system could be devised that could make it easier for people to transport food waste to community/local compost sites and a voucher given to a contributor which can be redeemed later for some good healthy growing soil.

Interesting story; love the Quirks and Quarks.

Where to put the garbage if not in a plastic bag? How about sidestepping the issue? Don't buy overpackaged things in the 1st place. I've tried this and found to my surprise with little effort I'm down to 2 small garbage bags a year. Rather than carting out overflowing bags of weekly garbage, see the "garbage-in-the-making" at the store when choosing what to buy-- think "what am I gonna do with THAT come garbage day?" Retailers get the kind of message, such choices send pronto, so your choices will just get easier.
(I don't have reusable shopping bags-- so far a daypack works fine. Doesn't everyone have a daypack? ;-)

Perfect. We should have had this in place in 2005. Save the petroleum for farm equipment.

I have seen examples of systems that convert plastics into biodiesel, in fact some systems exist in Canada which I understand are manufactured by a German company. In India for instance this is a technology that is being pursued. This is an efficient process, and can result in feedstock sufficiently virgin as to be reusable for new plastic fabrication or fuel. The point of this is that we have to change our viewpoint about the value of used plastic "things", from broken PVC pipes, TVs & computers to plastic grocery bags. The fact is that bag you hold in you hand when you put the groceries away is energy - with a high energy density. And people think that the best we can do is to put it into a landfill? There is more than enough waste plastic in this world to make this biodiesel conversion a profitable consideration, especially as the price of oil increases again.

I've started using reusable bags (yes, sometimes I forget them) and think we should ban the ubiquitous plastic bag. Agreed, the chicken carcase is hard to dispose of but maybe that is a problem with our attitude. We will not in the foreseeable future see an end to the use of plastic - everything seems to come in plastic now but again, changing our attitude will make a big difference.

I now have a home composting bin, the contents of which are picked up weekly and brought to a compost pile to naturally degrade. I cannot place any plastic (including anyu of those so-called 'compostable' plastics); they recommend I use paper bags to bundle up the waste and put it in, as it will degrade along with the organics.

If the local grocery stores started offering paper bags for me to use, I'd certainly take advantage; hopefully this will become an option once the composting program goes city-wide.

As much as I'm sympathetic to everyone who is noting the 'recycling' of plastic bags as garbage can liners, that is exactly what is causing the problem people! When you tie it up, where does it go? The landfill where it sits for a thousand years! We're just too addicted to convenience - get rid of 'em I say. What did we do before plastic bags?

Plastic bags are the best way to transport certain things, like groceries from store to home, doggy doo from lawn to garbage, garbage from kichen to can. Burying them in landfills sequesters carbon for millenia, which is actually a good thing.

The bad thing is that we humans are too weak-minded and too bone-lazy to pick up after ourselves, which is the only reason there is so much plastic refuse floating around in the oceans instead of being properly buried with the rest of our garbage.

So the trouble does not lie within the product but within ourselves.

Why not require retailers to collect a deposit on all non-degradable packaging? It seems to me that would result in most of the trash being saved and returned to the manufacturers, who would therefore have a strong incentive to use reusable packaging.

The guy with the chicken carcass could still choose to use his plastic bag as a trash container, but would have some incentive to find another solution.

"Reusable shoppping bags aren't supposed to be used for garbage:" Lee, Winnipeg.
Excuse-me Lee but where do you get the right to tell us what we are not supposed to use for garbage?
Garbage is garbage and if I choose to use reusable plastic bags with which to wrap/carry my garbage to the dumpster, I shall. Imagine the mess made by those who paper wrap their kitchen garbage and then drop it from the tenth story garbage chute. Splat!!

Excessive packaging is often a loss prevention measure. We also have to deal with shipping protection and dispose of styrofoam peanuts and inserts. As previously posted, perhaps a deposit on packaging would help, but how do I return the styrofoam to the manufacturer for my refund?

You can buy some items in bulk but few stores will allow your own containers. I get many of my grains, spices, tea, bird seed etc. at Bulk Barn. At the grocery store I choose eggs in a cardboard carton rather than a styrofoam one, juice in a glass bottle over a plastic one, and so on. Cheese from the deli and meat from the butcher means no styrofoam tray or plastic wrap to dispose of. (I'm fortunate to be walking distance from a weekend market where I can find these items.)

Other small measures I've taken include canvas shopping bags (which I sometimes forget), a travel mug for coffee, a stainless steel water bottle and bio-degradable white plastic bags for kitchen garbage - though since I found those at a dollar store my husband questions whether the claim on the box was legit. I may bury one this spring and see what happens to it over a season or two. I hope they do degrade, because the comment from someone re picking up dog poop struck a chord - no way would I use anything but a plastic bag for that chore!

Good article but it only skims the surface. We need to worry about more than plastic. It bothers me that we consume so much, always wanting the latest and greatest, disposing when we tire of something instead of at the end of its useful life.

There are those out there that I've seen complain about where they would put their chicken and fish bones.. Well, I'm guessing you could put them where they put them before and up to the invention of the plastic bag. These types of things can be composted. I don't understand perhaps why people feel so threatened by change. Chicken bones?? I can't beleive people would be stumped by this. Sigh.

What I need are good quality plastic bags that can be re-used over and over. I use my grocery store plastic bags for my household garbage. About half the time I remember to take my re-useable grocery bags (which carry more and don't fall all over the place like plastic bags). That generally gives me enough plastic bags to use for household garbage, taking lunch to work and whatever else I need them for without wasting any. If I didn't have these then I'd be buying plastic bags anyway.

It's a terrible shame that the LCBO discontinued their plastic bags. They were great. You could trust an LCBO bag not to leak or break. Now instead of bringing my wine home in a plastic bag, I bring it home in a mass of paper bags that go directly into the recycling. Do you know how hard it is to carry 3 bottles of wine in a paper bag?! It's useless! That's a waste.

The worst tragedy of waste are the cheap grocery bags that have holes and can't be re-used. Pure garbage. What we really need are thick, sturdy plastic bags of standard sizes that can be re-used over and over, and then will biodegrade after 6 months or a year. Save trees for more important things like shade, habitat, air filtration, and forests.

well, after reading a lot of this i sort of laugh to myself, and i sort of worry. i can not say i remember the days before plastic bags, i don't know when they became big, but i am pretty sure it was a fare while before me. I've grown up with so much plastic, and plastic bags i have always known to be a big part of life, but i think we could get along just fine with out them.
now i am pretty young, but i am worrying, the tone that some people give off about banning plastic bags sort of frightens me. it the fact that these people who came before me, and have contributed to a problem that everyone needs to deal with, are too selfish and lazy to get up and change things to make it a tad bit more difficult, but a tad bit better. in school we're being taught all about global change, and how we should do things about it (of course we are too young to do anything) yet these older generation around us, what are they doing?
i think its ridiculous to worry this much over what you might loose from a change like this.

besides, yeh paper bags can't hold wet stuff, but as far as i have seen not many people are looking on the bright side of paper bags. so here i go, (you can chuckle if you like, i did when i wrote it)
PAPER BAGS ARE GOOD FOR (that i know):
~making harmless puppets
~making puppy chow (a very good christmas type treat : ) )
~and my mom makes a really good apple pie where you stick it inside and bake it

yes those are not the strongest points to raise, but i would be willing to go without many plastic items.

as i had mentioned before, to me it appears that the older generations are not making daily efforts to help the environment, as if they are waiting for us to do it all when we are their age. well I've tried, (this isn't about plastic but it does concern me). i was going through a store one day with a friend and when we were in the frozen items section i was really frustrated by all the op[en freezers they had. when we were at the check out i tried to ask if there was some one who i could mail a letter to about having doors put on freezers & fridges, and they said 'no that's the way all the stores are, and they will stay that way.'
now if that doesn't say i don't care about energy consumption or climate change, what does?

P.S. i never let my parents get too much if they don't have green bags or green boxes when they are forgotten. would others even bother?

I say let's go for it too. Of course, there are inconveniences that come with doing away with plastic bags, such as having to find an alternative way to dispose of trash (are there any others?), but in the long run isn't this a step in the right direction?

My family started using re-usable shopping bags, and they work great thus far.

Am I the only guy who shops occassionaly at Mountain Equipment Co-Op? If you forget a re-usable bag, they provide you with one that is made from corn starch in some esoteric process that allows it to bio-degrade - also solid enough to use for garbage of you want to. Heck, the Winnipeg Blue Bombers even switched to the same type of material for beer cups - yes, more expensive but once economies of scale are factored in, not so much. Never mind plastic bags, think how many plastic cups must be thrown out in arenas in this country for QMJHL/OHL/WHL/AHL/NHL games in a year.

Seems to me, the logical thing to do would be to require retailers to switch to this type of bag and use the Superstore model of charging for each bag to encourage bringing your own.

Plastic bags are not indispensable for anything. We've just got this culture of thoughtless convenience built up that allows us to grab a plastic bag without even thinking whether there's a better way to do it. The 5-cent bag at some progressive stores works not because of the money but because of the little pause that makes the consumer think about his actions.

We all need to think a little more about even our little actions. I don't want my kids, or any kids, to have do deal with big, difficult problems in a hundred years because i didn't give a moment's thought about something today.

I am writing from Cambodia. This country is drowning in plastic bags not to mention all the other kinds of plastic containers and garbage that just get tossed onto the ground. No matter where you go in the cities, in the countryside, along the roads and even the waterways the landscape is trimmed with white, pink and blue, and I am not talking about tropical flowers.
Anyone who has traveled to less developed countries knows how ubiquitous the plastic bag is. It amazing to me that country like Rwanda has had the motivation to ban the plastic bag. Perhaps there is hope for us all.

When I worked at Cascades INC, the CEO (one of the Lemaire boys) asked me what I wanted to do in the future.

I said, "I want to go to University to make a new paper so that we can stop using trees as a source of paper."

He was impressed, and I got my Christmas bonus.

Later, my manager blocked my wish.

25 years later, I wonder what would have happened had my boss Mr. Williams not blocked this dream of mine. His focus was on recycling and keeping the sweat hogs working on them bins of paper plus managing the sweat hogs who work at a plant.

The sweat hogs I worked with never understood my amateur self-taught knowledge of quantum mechanics and particle physics.

Today, some of the sweat hogs still push a broom, drive trucks, empty bins and breath in all kinds of government dust.

Pitty...

What was ever wrong with paper bags in the first place? Atleast they break down easily if they aren't recycled.