From the Pressbox

Let the punishment fit the crime.

Players that are intentionally injured should receive salary compensation for the duration of their injuries by the negligent player. If the Goon is unable to pay the full amount then the team would top up.

If this happened, injured players would have their future earnings protected and the teams with uncontrollable goons would be hurt hard.

Fines of 25K or even a 100k mean nothing to an injured player who has a lost a career of earning mega income.

Think about it. You spend 12-15 years training to be the best and then someone goes and demolishes your career out of spite! You lose everything and they get a 20 game suspension.

I agree we need to get goonery out of the NHL. But to do it simply to please the American market is foolishness. We were in California, where they have 3 NHL teams, when the Bertuzzi incident happened. I didn't hear about it until 3 days after it happened, and that was because I wore my Canucks t-shirt and was noticed by a Colorado fan. CNN was more concerned about the steroids in baseball issue, and I saw nothing at all in the sports section of the papers--all they had was the scores. It just wasn't newsworthy down there.

Making the suspension equal to the injury could not realisticaly work as there are some players that are more injury prone than others. For argument's sake, Lindros takes a hit that is boarderline dirty in the corners from Crosby and suffers a concussion that ends his career. Would you support ending Crosby's carreer for it? The idea of taking a hit on the salary cap in conjunjuction with the current fines, suspension and losing draft picks seems more reasonable.

In theory like the idea. Money definitely will cause people to take notice. However, it may not be viewed as enough. Perhaps instead of or in addition to this idea we invoke a rule that does not allow the suspended player's team to replace that player with another until that suspension is over. Yes ,it does already hit the cap issue but imagine the implications if, as in last year's playoff with Pronger, he received what should have been 3-5 games and you had to use your number 6 or 7 defenseman? That may make GM's more accountable to signing players whose skills lie outside the rink rather than on the ice.

The guys usually committing the goonery play as little as two minutes a game anyway and are very expendable, like the Flyers have proven already! If they injure a player during their act of stick swinging, hitting from behind or selfishly blindsiding their opponent, a quality player from the team with the goon should be taken out of the lineup until the other team's player can return! That would have really hurt Vancouver in the Todd Bertuzzi incident!

Deal with the problem by:

1)Ban the player for twice the number of games missed by the injured player.

2)Deduct points from teams when a player is guilty of cheap hits.

3)If certain teams persist, make them play behind closed doors (i.e. no spectators)

4)Make fines meaningful - or a % of a teams turnover or players salary.

If you want to stop goonery, then dress your team's enforcer! That's why a team pays $500,000 for a "player" who can't score or contribute anything productive. The enforcer's job has always been to deter players from taking a "run" or "cheap shot" at his teammates. Because If you do, then the enforcer drops the gloves with you the next shift, and you get beat up and embarassed on national television. Players, teams and owners couldn't care less about fines! Money is the one thing that is more then plentyfull from top to bottom in the NHL.

One other idea - how about not allowing the team to replace a suspended player on their roster. So right now the Flyers would play with 2 less players on their bench each night.

This type of incident, and injuries caused by them, are becoming more common in the NHL. Everybody agrees on that. How can the NHl stop this kind of garbage (it sure as hell isn't hockey)?

1)Heavy fines and suspensions on the player. I'm not talking 25 grand, I'm talking 25% of that player's salary for the year, and suspensions to match. Boulerice and Downey's suspensions are, I think, appropriate in length.

2)Fine the coach and team as well, at least the same amount the player is fined. THAT will get the coach's and owner's attention.

3)For multiple incidents in the season, the team loses points: 2 points for 2 incidents, 6 points for 3 incidents, etc. See how quick the incidents will stop when the team loses points and positions in the standings.

A three-pronged attack on this problem is advisable:

1) The NHL should continue to progressively raise the ante by increasing the amount of fines and the length of suspensions to those who commit these violations.

2) There should be a change in the penalty rules that punish players for policing these types of offenses. Dirty players are protected by the rules, but they will think twice if they know they have targets on their backs

3) Matching fines should be levied against the players and the franchises. The franchise will pay a double fine for a second incident involving any of their players. The fine will be tripled for the third offense and so on.

This approach addresses the wallets of the offending players, allows the policing players to do their jobs, and forces the teams to properly control their players (one has to believe that the Flyers, who apparently take great pride in the label "Broad Street Bullies," have had a role in either directly or implicitly encouraging vicious play - the team has had a history of unnecessary violence since the 1970's/Freddy Shero days and their present roster includes some very "mean" and "disrespectful" players).

The teams do get fined. The Flyers are still on the hook for over $100,000 of Boulerice's salary. That money, rather than going towards another player who can play those 25 games, gets paid into a fund.

You're all missing the point here with fining the player, fining the team, lost wages, revenues, suspended until the other player is back, etc. Has anyone taken the Ken Dryden factor into consideration along with the development of off-ice conditioning over the summer months?

Dryden observed that the players are getting bigger and bigger and playing at 100 per cent all of the time (no Gretzky or Lemieux at 60 per cent while waiting for the play to develop). The players, doing their part to keep ahead of the game, are training with personal trainers and in team groups (e.g. Edmonton's players training for six weeks in the States under a strength and fitness program) in order to be more fit, stronger and faster and thus increase the speed and intensity if the game.

Have people watched peewee and bantam triple-A hockey lately? A large number of these 13 and 14 year-olds are nearly six feet tall and some in the 180-190 lb range. It's what the pros are looking for. It's what they're being given.

The game here in Europe is good but it's not to be compared with NHL. The NHL has a style that is not based on soccer as it is here - that is, hockey as a chess game played out on the field and ice. The North American hockey game is built on speed and power in close quarters, not waiting and waiting to set things up. That's why so many people don't "get" soccer and European hockey - they're a different animal.

So really, until the GAME and FANS change, hockey will continue to see these kinds of incidents. No way am I condoning it, but no way will they go away no matter who you fine, for how long, or what you do to the teams. It's the unintended consequence of the evolution of the game. Sorry.

Regarding the comment from John in Toronto: That idea seems good on the surface, but it has major flaws. First, it encourages players to embelish their injuries just to keep the offender out longer, especially if a marginal player is hurt.

Second, the severity of the injury is rarely equal to the act. Just because the victim escaped serious injury doesn't mean that it wasn't a dangerous play, and conversely just because someone gets seriously hurt doesn't mean that it must have been a more severe cheap shot.

Suspensions should be consistent, and based on the nature of the act, and the history of the offender. Any head shot should incur long suspensions, and repeat offenders should get season bans.

A fine for teams might work some of the time, but what's the price of winning? A $100,000 fine to take Crosby out for a while? For most teams, it's still a bargain. Maybe a good punishment for the teams would be to lower their salary cap limit for the following year, or, even more extreme, take a point from the standings for every 10-game suspension.

I agree with the idea to penalize teams with the loss of a roster spot along with the individual player's suspension. This would make the players think twice about getting suspended, as it hurts their teammates. Fines don't work with people with essentially unlimited funds.

Re: Stick swinging, headshots...etc...

1. Fine the team
2. Fine the individual
3. Tit for tat - injurer sits as long as the injured
4. Criminal charges as needed

A hockey fight? Fine. But I don't believe someone whose "livelihood" is hockey will be really considering "punishing' others (ie. teammates/coaches/organization) for whatever reason (salary etc). In the end they will be gone.

The fastest way to stop "deliberate attempts to injure" is to tie the fate of the offender with the player he injures. If all suspensions included a clause stating that the offending player would not be allowed to suit up for as long as the injured player cannot play AND that all suspensions issued would only start once the injured player is back playing again, idiots who try to end another players career would start to realize that they would be finished in hockey as well. That would put a quick end to all the garbage hits you see today.

"How does the NHL expect to reach deeper into the great American Market if they don't get this kind of thing under control."

"a nice sport now its become a game of goons and thugs"

i think this type of violence has always been part of the game, and many other sports, as isolated incidents. i think it's time to stop over-reacting to these types of incidents. the game has clamped down on fighting, removed stick incidents and is now trying to deal with hits to the head. the NHL is moving in the right direction.

i think it's time to stop using the 'american market' as an example. hockey has been in the US professionally for decades, there are hotbeds but mostly it has never, and will never, catch on.

as for a 'sport of goons', anybody remember the 70s and 80s? the ratio of sub-par players to superstars was much higher, now teams have one 'enforcer' or tough-guy. it's not needed anymore, the game has changed and become much more skill-based.

i think suspensions and fines are working, i think rule changes are working. the game has been significantly improved. it would be nice if the rules and the game could stay the same for a 5 year period for them to take hold, rather than the knee-jerk reactions that happen yearly due to whims and isolated incidents.

I agree 1000% with your suggestion. This is a management problem. The Flyers shouldn't be selecting goons all the time.

Just took a look through the comments and saw at least 3 soccer comparisons. There is a reason why soccer is the most boring sport in the world to watch, and why we keep bringing in new things because they do it in soccaer is beyond me.

Great ideas. The best was from Jean in Ottawa: if a player causes grievous injury to another then they themsleves must sit out until the other player is fit to return. If the the injured player cannot return, the perpetrator forfeits some portion of his pay in perpetuity. I also like the idea of the team roster remaining short during the wait.

The idea of deducting points is good, but you people are suggesting two or three?? I think it should be 10 at least or some formula. Perhaps one point deducted for every game or week missed by the victim.

There's no question that fining teams 10k or 20k is a joke. That's just spit in the ocean of these organizations.

Yes, I think hockey has to somehow separate thugishness from fighting in hockey. I came to the sport during my college days mostly because of a team (the '76-79 Bowling Green S.U. Falcons during the Ron Mason era) that specialized in bone rattling checks and dropping the gloves when needed. A good hockey fight is still one of the most entertaining aspects of the game. What has no place is the stick swinging goonishness that has happened so recently. I think if we permit more pure fighting to allow players to vent some frustration there would be less of these stick swinging incidents. But ultimately the stick swingers have to pay a heavy price for their irresponcibility.

I agree, I love the physical aspect of the game. But what we're seeing in incidents such as the one's discussed here don't belong in the game.
It is of my opinion that there is a question of respect here. I am left with the impression that the players don't respect one another when I see some of the things they do in the course of a game. I realize it's a competative do anything you can to be better the other guy environment but there shouldn't any tolerance for this kind of goon show.

Regarding thr game the other night between the Flyers and Canucks, there was really no need for that kind of stuff. The game was over by the third period, and Boudrice should have used a bit of restirat. However, he got what he deserved a 25 game suspenision. Should have been more.

In response to Mark in Calgary. I hope you were being sarcastic. Because quite honestly....who cares if they reach deeper into the US market. Hockey will never be big down there. They need to focus on the places it does work. Like putting more teams in Canada, and getting rid of the ones down south that can't put bums in the seats.
Thats my 2¢

Fighting has been a part of North American hockey since it's inception. There are strategic, motivational and honorary aspects to the hockey fight that are integral to the game and should not be removed. The role of "hockey enforcer", when played with honor, where two combatants agree to drop the gloves and trade blows is one of the most entertaining features of the game. Fighting is not keeping the great game of hockey from penetrating the North American, translated as United States market. What hurts the hockey market more than anything is the hissy-fit hysteria that always surrounds one of these rare stick swinging incidents, which have no place in hockey. The punishment fit the crime, but don't blame fighting for this incident. Swinging a stick at someone's head is not and never has been part of a hockey fight.

One major problem with taking away points is that teams who are low on the totem pole late in the season won't care. In fact, if draft position is determined by your season's standings, a team would actually be rewarded by losing points. Can you imagine how big a threat it would have been last year to Philadelphia if they were to lose points. They were in last place! Even the Bullies cannot go lower than 30th. I like the lowering of the cap limit, that's a good idea. However, since Elliot seems to enjoy creativity, try this: as a result of the Boulerice (PHI) hit on Kesler (VAN) and the subsequent suspension, also transfer Philadelphia's first draft pick next spring to Vancouver. This punsihes the player, punishes the offending team and compensates the team who has had a player damaged. Actually, the number of draft picks can be increased depending on the severity of the infraction, the length of the recovery and the perceived value of the injured player.

Have been involved with hockey since they built Maple Leaf Gardens,to'days hockey is goonery,compared to the time when it was 6 teams,seems to me if players like Bertuzzi and Boulerice were banned from playing in the N.H.L.for life,95% of the peroblem would be solved,the other 5%relates to the owners,as they generaly approve the signing of a player with a questionable past.
Have a nice day.

Some of the ideas in the comments are really good. I like the idea of forcing the offending team to take a salary cap hit. I like the idea of forcing the offending team to play a man down for the duration of the suspension.

Forfeiture of standings points isn't a terrible idea, but it isn't a great one either. It would only have an impact on playoff bound or playoff bubble teams. Imagine a situation late in a season where a team is hopelessly out of the playoff race and sending a goon brigade out there. They're not making the playoffs anyway, so losing standings points isn't going to hurt them. No deterrent.
Forfeiture of future games is a bad idea. This isn't a rec league. That doesn't hurt the offending team as much as it does the folks who buy tickets to games. Unless you say that the offending team forfeits games and has to refund everybody who already bought tickets.

Most of the comments are right on the money. Start another column in the standing for team penalty points. That is the only way.
Fines mean nothing. Besides I remember hearing Roger Neilson on a talk show once long after his white towel waving in the 1982 playoff run. He said that if he fine was ever paid, he sure doesn't know who paid it. Does this mean the NHL fines are just a PR show. My haunch it that is so.
So lets take a case in point. The Calgary goon show in the playoff last year. A backup goaltender comes in and to deliver a whack and Iginla shows his goon side. Were the fines for real? I doubt it. A goalie who will not be playing is suspended 6 games for doing what he was sent in to do. What discipline?????
I bet Calgary lost the next game because they couldn't focus due to laughter.
Goons are the most admired but lowest paid of NHL players. Why? There is an abundance on the market. You can always callup another one.

Speaking objectively as a Canuck fan, I think that Boulerice's hit was intended to instigate a fight with Kesler. I really don't think he intended to hit him in the face but intended to goad him into dropping the gloves. Iain got it right. Many of these dirty plays can be avoided with removing the instigator penalty. Boulerice could have dropped the gloves without fear of an extra penalty. Kesler could stand up for himself and answer for any trash talking or any so called liberties he may have taken. Hockey is played (and watched) by passionate people. If you take away the venting mechanism, you start seeing cheap shots.

I figured Boulerice should have received 20 games for this and expected 15. Obviously the league is sending a stronger message. We should expect the next suspension to cross the 25 game high mark.

I think a cap hit would also be an interesting penalty. I really do agree with a 10% matching suspension on the head coach.

I am sure that Kesler is glad that Boulerice chose a hockey stick instead of a padded glove...

This has been an increasing issue in the years of expansion and is directly related to the widening gap in those players who have legitimate NHL skill and those who are there as "fluff" in the roster.

I agree with what most people have said here because I do believe there is way too many unnecessary injuries in the league because of people losing it. I normally don't mind fights, and I would rather have those than a cheap shot. At least in a fight, both players are aware that someone is going to be hit. I have to disagree with what Pankaj said though, there have always been goons in hockey and it is not necessarily getting worse, but too many players have lost careers because of injuries and it's about time the problem was fixed.

I don't think money is much of an issue with the owners and managers. If you want to add a real deterent, I say penalize a team's salary cap at the rate of say $100,000 for each game suspension. The Flyers will have lost $4 million of cap space by now. This would be applied to next years salary cap.

If one team in particular cannot control nor dipline their players from this dangerous stupidity I suggest perhaps regardless of how far the season's progressed, to forefiet the remainder of the season or at least half of the existing seaons if less then ten games. I like the suggestions of the increasing fines. That's a huge deterant.

Point deduction sounds promising, but how would that work once a team was already in the playoffs? Remember Pronger's two hits last year?

Elliotte ... it's not a question of money ... if they can afford to pay players several million dollars a year they certainly can afford a paltry 100, 200 or even 500,000 dollar fine. You want to make them accountable hit them where it hurts. Have them forfeit the game and start increasing the number of games forfeited on each susequent suspension.

Only fine the team if you can prove that they did something wrong.Other then that the player is the guilty one out there on the ice.If a player is suspended one game or more he has to sit out games in the reg season and the same amount of games in the playoffs.FOR EXAMPLE a player gets a 3 game suspension has to sit 3 games in the reg season and 3 games in the playoffs.By not playing in the playoffs will hurt him and his team.

when looking at some of the other comments posted it is very obvious that there is not going to be an easy solution to this problem. You can't remove fighting from hockey all together because that has always been a part of the game and has never posed a problem of this size in the past. I think it makes good sense to have the consequences of the action impact more than the player itself, and carry more than just a monetary penalty. But you can't really hand a fine to the team, or the owner in general as they are the sharholders of the NHL and you can't bite the hand that feeds you - so to speak. I definitely support the idea of having the aggressor be forced to sit out for as long as the injurred player has to prior to the suspension taking effect (ie. you end a players career and you never play again!) I believe that the most effective deterrent would be the loss of points for the team when a player makes an intent to injure. Then players who can't seem to be controlled, or coaches who let this stuff take place will prove to be to much of a liability to stay in this league. You can't put a price on points!

Pankaj is correct , it WAS a good game, fast, good moves, exciting to watch. Hmmm reminds me of European hockey. Now it is a game of goons, where a person is hired for his ability to fight to change the pace of a game when the team with less ability but more goons are losing. Want to change the face of hockey? Cut to commercials during every fight, toss the player out for the game as they do in other sports. Stop idolizing the thugs. Take a lesson from NFL or NBA, no broadcasting of fights. Keep the focus on the game. And no, a fight is not part of the game, get out of grade two. Just because you are losing does not give you the right to take your stick and puck and go home.

Fines need to be realistic. $25,000 means nothing to hockey teams that have multi million dollar budgets (even those that are allegedly losing money!) Also, teams would suffer more if they were to lose a roster spot, as previously mentioned. That would not only put the pressure on the offending player by the coaches and the owners, but also by the remaining players who have to pick up the slack of being 1 player down.
Peer pressure from other players would probably be the most effective way of stoppuing these outrageous actions. That also means that the player association should be more involved with punishments than they are right now.

Financially penalizing a team is not the solution as demenstrated by the large salaries being rewarded for players. For a player to be accountable for his actions i propose a suspension which would be for a suspension of ten regular season games would include a first round playoff serious. For a second offence, it would be the first two rounds of the playoffs. If the team does not reach the playoffs, it would be carried over to the next season and we be applied if the player was traded. The team would then be forced to make a decision to keep a player on the active roster if they were unavailable for the playoffs which really count.

Just want to say that I'm really impressed by some of the ideas here. Points taken away is a radical idea -- probably too radical for now -- but losing a roster spot/getting a salary cap hit is brilliant stuff.

I wish I'd thought of those.

EF

Sandeep and others are right on the mark when they suggest that points should be deducted. Not just a couple of points though - minimum of 10 perhaps for each offence, so that the team would need to win five games just to erase each 10-point loss. Leeds United in England's League One (3rd tier) soccer division had 15 points deducted (for financial irregularites) before the season had even started, which meant they had to gain 15 points just to get back to 0.

And Art Ahrens, I think you have your priorities absolutely wrong. No-one's questioning good, hard, clean checking - that's part of hockey. But goonery a la Downie and Boulderice is not. That sort of behaviour belongs in the UFC ring and it requires severe punishment, both at the player and the club level.

Elliotte apparently doesn't recognize how much money the owners of NHL teams possess (or the accounting treatment that can be 'attempted' in relation to team fines) - the numbers he is suggesting are frankly irrelevant. You want flagrant headshots and actions dangerous to players' health to stop, take POINTS away from teams.
Not making the playoffs has a measurable financial implication and not making the playoffs due to a stupid act of a teammate has a real locker room impact. The fine concept without significant inflation in realtion thereto has zero influence and in no way compels players to police teammates.

Former player and now concerned father

I think teams should be fined in points as well, just like the NASCAR system. Not only do you sit out games but you actually hurt your teams standing, that idea would work beautifully, who wants to be responsible for the 3 pts that were needed at the end of the season to qualify for the playoffs because someone on the team could not control their temper. Not sure on how many points but it is certainly an idea that can be looked into, that is potential revenue(playoff) that would be lost!

I think Sandeep has hit the jackpot for a solution. Now, it would get a lot of people thinking about sending a player on the ice with the sole intent of injuring another player...

All great points, but there is another one, DON'T allow the team to replace the player for the entire suspension. As Boulerice has been suspended for 25 games, he's out but the Flyers can't call call someone up to replace him on the roster and will have to play one player short for those 25 games. Now that's an incentive not to do anything so stupid.

Nice idea. However I have two questions - Who defines an excessive hit and who do you think will ultimately pay the fine?

Scott Stevens was one hardest hitters in the history of hockey. His check on Eric Lindros is considered a classic. Should he have been penalized for that hit? Obviously not.

If the league fined the team for "excesively" hard hits by their players the fans will pay the fines in the form of higher ticket prices and higher cable rates.

Personally, I think the NHL should adopt what is done in European soccer, and that's stripping teams of points. With the large amounts of cash players make these days, $50,000 fine doesn't seem like much. Points on the other hand are more valuable than cash. By stripping a team of 2 points, it'll leave a bigger sting. Guys like Boulerice and Downie will not only have to answer to the league, but their teammates. The Flyers as an organization needs to hold some sort of accountability, especially since both incidences were caused by guys on the same team. By stripping points, teams will have to keep their goons in check.

It would only be applied when the player shows an intent to injure. Not regular fighting, that's different. Fighters in the league are not out to severly injure other guys. Only points will be stripped, goals, assists, and other stats would still be counted.

As some above have indicated, financial penalties wont stop a goon from being a goon and penalising the coach "might" work, but is questionable as they do control ice time but are rewarded only for winning. In truth the only way to get it out of the game is to throw the offenders out of the game entirely.
Eventually youngsters will see that goonery limits their long range potential and coaches and owners will stop hiring them in order to manage the risk.
Only then might people who have stopped watching hockey (count me among them) and /or kept their children out of the game go back. Until then there are just too many alternatives and the "bloody minded" fans can have their sport. I know that I don't miss it.

Quite frankly the punishment has to be greater than the crime. If a player injurs another, he should be suspended for the length of time it takes that player to return to regular play + a further suspension as deemed appropriate by the NHL Brass... I would even sugges that in a case where a player ends another's careeer, that offender should forfit half his salary to help support the injurred player. Tat would send a very clear message!

When a soccer player commits a major foul that warrants a 'sending off', the team plays one man short for the remainder of the game, not just for a few minutes. If the same principle were applied to the NHL, I believe that the goons would become extinct within a month!

Furthermore any fines against a team should go against their salary cap. In this day and age fining the team\organization $200,000 is nothing, take that out of their salary cap, and you make players understand that if they participate in thie kind of behavior it is going to hurt the team beyond their time in the penalty box.

i think this should be in the hands of the local police,as any intent to injure should be a criminal offence no matter where it takes place.

Great idea Elliott, but the league office takes its direction from ownership. These clowns care about the bottom line $$ only, and won't approve any such move that fines the team or owners.

This mess is going to get worse, that's the only thing I know is certain. The owners and the league brass have no clue, and the goons have no repsect for the fellow players. What a black mark on a great game.

1 - Suspend the offending player for the appropriate time but he sits out until the injured player is back to playing, the suspension does not start until that time.

So; if you show intent and break my arm and put me out for 6 weeks. If you got a 10 game suspension then you would sit out for 6 weeks, plus 10 games. During all that time your salary would go to the NHLPA Assistance fund that helps injured players.

I would also suggest that during the time you are suspended if you have any sponsors (Nike, Easton) and monies earned from them would also be forfeited to the players fund. This is an easy thing to figure out dollar wise, and after all, if you did not play for the NHL then you would not have the same sponsorship. Perhaps it could be called "A good Standing Clause" written into all future contracts signed by the NHL and NHLPA. If both sides are serious about wanting to clean up their game then I do not see the problem.

Do you punish a hit or the intention of hurting someone?
I believe that the league should put the focus in defining what qualifies as an intention to injure another player and punish the player and the teams severely. If a player that has the puck is not looking and the player from the other team intentionally hit him on the head or anywhere else with the intention of hurting that's what's wrong. A good fight or an accidental stick in the face or head can happen. So let's establish how to decide what make a hit one with intention to hurt or injure.

Thanks

How does the NHL expect to reach deeper into the great American Market if they don't get this kind of thing under control. ESPN, which rarely shows NHL highlights chooses not show a rookie goaltender make great saves to get his first NHL professional win but they lead with a forth liner taking cheap shots. By the NHL allowing such acts, in turn this is the product that they are selling to the public. Who wants it?

I think the debate about this has become pointless. Read Grace Under Fire. Stick swinging and muggings have been happening100 years in hockey? Same level of brutality. It’s nothing new. Suggesting that economic penalties will control a guy’s temper in the heat of the moment is a weak argument. If that had legitimacy this would have stopped after McSorely, there’d be no fights in bars etc. because the threat of fines or jail time would deter people. Doesn’t matter. Still happens. In fighting (boxing, UFC, hockey etc,) it’ over when one person submits because they’re too tired, dazed or injured, to carry on. That’s the nature of physical conflict. If you want fighting and brutality gone, kick them out indefinitely. If you say I want bare knuckle fighting and huge body checks, just not too ugly, it’s impossible to have. There will always be moments of ugly brutality (Orr’s KO of Fedoruk, Stevens on Kariya) Violence doesn’t have a perfect balancing point. It boils over eventually.

I agree with those above who said that Downie should stay on the Flyer roster for the duration of his suspension with his salary counting against the cap. Having a dead weight (or weights in goon teams) around is better punishment than any fine.

How about suspending the team from play? Automatic losses by default for a percentage of a major suspension. Or a max of 1 point for a win and 0 points for a tie during a number of games determined by the league, say 25% of the major suspension.

Honestly here, let's please not mention soccer and hockey in the same sentence... completely different sports and not even comparable in any way. This is a rough sport, soccer is not.

With that said, as someone mentioned earlier, make the ice bigger and adjust the rules. After moving to Sweden and seeing their elite league play multiple times a week, we can learn soo much from them over here. In addition team owners can learn a tremendous amount to increase attendance/revenue from the leagues here as well.

Punish the player... why the team or another player. Let's get serious with discussions here, not place blame on anothers shoulders simply because we don't have an answer...

Learn from those doing it presently, why reinvent the wheel here. There is a lot of amazing hockey in the world vs, the NHL... and I'd love to see the NHL get to the level and class we all know they can.

Actually it is Colin Campbell's fault, him, Don Cherry, Fred Shero and everyone who learned from him, and every junior hockey league board who lets kids run around in facemasks.
And no, it is not idiocy, it is what these people do - deliberate brutal violence wrecking what remains of a nice game. The NHL will be dead in a decade in Canada. It already is in the States. Why? Because parents don't watch it and don't follow teams anymore, so kids don't either.

Come on Mr Friedman, why would you not want to eleiminate all fights even between two guys who can play? If you like fights watch extreme fighting on another channel.

With the downie hit aside. The last two situations in hockey violence are just unbearable to watch. With retaliation occurring in a brutal way. It looks like little kids are playing this game, with a get even mentality, often in a cheap way. This is were I encourage fighting, I would rather see a guy drop his gloves and square off then swing his stick, or blindside a player. Seems like no one is prepared to do this in a fear that the opponent will not drop his as well, ending in a large power play and goal for the opposing team. Maybe the instigator rule is creating cheap shots, perhaps this aspect of the game needs another look.

There needs to be more team consequence. What if the roster spot of a suspended player could not be filled by some other marginal player trying to make a name for themself? Just think how the Flyer organization would respond if they had to ice a team short 2 men on the bench for 20 games!

I am all for toughness in the NHL, I enjoy watching a well placed hit. I even enjoy an entertaining fight between players. But hits from behind (Bertuzzi) and especially cross-checking someone in the face (Boulerice)is not what I want to see on the ice. What kind of person thinks it is OK to use their hockey stick to mess up someones face, even in the heat of a hockey game. Off-ice that would be assault.

As I said, I enjoy seeing toughness on the ice, but the main reason I go to hockey games is to see some incredible skating, puck handling, and team playing. In essence the actual game of hockey. I want to see some good clean, talented hockey which includes throwing good, clean hits and some good clean checking. But cross-checking an opponent in the face!? Come-oooonn....

I say make the coach and the entire team responsible. The team owners won't notice fines. Lay the responsibility on the people actually playing the games.

The problem is major: Downie and others including the hit by Mr. Sutter in the recent Canada - Russia series [ a hit which brought no outcry from anyone!] willl eventualy either main or fatally wound someone. This is also a problem in minor hockey. Fines don't cut it.

The solution is simple: ADOPT THE SOCCEER RESPONSE: THE TEAM PLAYS THE REMAINDER OF THE GAME SHORT-HANDED!

I guarantee that within 1 year the situation will be addressed and that Messers Downie and Sutter and others will either learn to play the game some other way or play some other game.

If the CHA and NHL and all hockey bodies in between, including international bodies, do not addresss this matter now there will be a major legal suit forthcoming when someone is maimed or killed on the ice. I would like to pass this on to Colin Campbell but can't locate his e mail address, The HNHLPA has been so advised.

YESSS!! I agree with Elliott. It is time the teams and their management were held responsible. Don't blame it all on a struggling misguided hockey player.

Something has to be done and quick, with regard to hits to the head. Last one was a shoulder and the guy got 20 games. This time it was a stick. There is no place for this in the world of hockey. Remember Ted Green, Wayne Maki, Brashear and Moore - all hit to the head. Will the NHL wait until somebody dies on the ice before starting to be more severe? As for Boulerice, he should be made an example from the start with a minimum of 50 games without pay, and a fine to the team he plays for. I say a deliberate hit to the head should be fine in the range of $500,000 that goes to a trust fund to the victim of such a hit.

Your position in the article is a start, but it doesn't go nearly far enough. The amounts you mentioned are mere pocket change in the NHL, and I wouldn't be surprised if the coaches, and some players have the fines reimbursed by their teams in some fashion or other. Take away draft picks,reduce their salary cap by millions, take points from the offending team, drop one player off the bench, especially one equal or better than the one injured, and make it the same player for the whole term of the injury/suspension, whichever is longer. There are a lot of possiblities, obviously suspending offending players is not working.

The violence shown on tv is repeated by many younger players, the sooner the NHL stops it, the sooner the minor leagues will adopt the same standards.

I strongly agree with Lance and Glen Lee. Deducting points in the standings would be a much more effective deterrent than fines - although the idea of having them affect a teams' salary cap is a good alternative. Does anybody seriously think that an owner is going to pay this fine out of his own pocket? They are simply going to pass the fine on to their fans through increases in ticket prices. The same fans who have already paid good money to watch this nonsense.

I agree the team should be punished but a fine is not enough. Hitting the owners' and coaches' pocket is one thing but they need to have a penalty that affects the team on the ice.
I believe that if a team has a player serving a suspension they should not be able to replace him on thier roster while the suspension is being served. For example, if Boulerice gets a 20-game suspension then the Flyers should only be able to dress 19 players for the duration of the suspension rather than the usual 20.
The team would be reluctant to simply replace one stupid player on thier roster with another as the cumulative effect of multiple players being suspended would take its toll on a teams performance. Hopefully then repeat offenders would soon find it difficult to find a team to sign them.

I agree with the various other commentators here - to make a fine effective, to make it have a real repercussion, it must count against a team's salary cap.

As the game is very physical in nature and the amount of stress the media places on the players and coaches, is it any wonder the amount of goonery that goes on and by the way, is expected from those involved?
If we want hockey to be hockey we must accept the fact that players will sometimes over-re-act to a situation and cause injury to an opponent. It's the way hockey is, it's just that simple.
The fines and penalties are there for the offenders just as laws are there for the general public. Break those laws or rules and suffer the consequences.
The NHL is starting to deal with the offenders.

Repeated gooliganism should net the team a lowered salary cap. Imagine if some of their premiere players were threatened because they had no more room for them.

I certainly agree that Boulerice should be gone for the season. I also think taking action against teams that employ goons would also help. One idea might be to have teams play with one man less on the roster during the suspension. If the Flyers had to play with a 19-man roster for 20 games because of the Downie suspension, and now had to play with with still one less roster spot for another 20 or 40 games because of Boulerice, you can bet your boots (or skates) that the kind of goonery exhibited by the Downie and Boulerice would end PDQ!

What lesson did Philadelphia really learn from the Downey suspension? It happened preseason with a player who they ended up sending down to the minors with no repercussions to the team. Ottawa loses a quality player, and Philadelphia loses what?

This alone shows that something needs to change in the system. Teams and coaches need to be held accountable for the actions of their players.

Bravo, Woody!
I believe you and your 7-year-old hit it right on the head. Individuals, especially grown men, need to be responsible for their own actions. Never mind the owners, coaches, salary caps, point standings. I enjoy the roughness in hockey and believe that hockey isnt' hockey without some good, aggressive, clean-hitting play. If there are hockey players in the world that are not capable of rational thought while on the ice in any league (and, obviously, there are!), I suggest that you hang up the skates and buy yourself a copy of Halo 3.

The teams should be responsible for the actions of their players. If a player is suspended, the team should be penalized a set number of points in the standings along with an appropriate fine.

..Player suspended 10 games, team penalized 4 points in the standings for example.This could prove rather costly for team owners if,as a result of penalty points, a team loses out on playoff revenues.

A player suspended for violent actions should also be required to obtain psychiatric counselling similar to the substance abuse program.

I would be interested in hearing some comment on the cheap shot on Komisarik by Sundin which did not result in a penalty.What are the odds if the situation was reversed that a penalty would have been forthcoming? We can rest assured that there would have been cries for at least a five minute major for the Montreal player from the hnit[hockey night in toronto] broadcast crew.What we did hear was that the offender was protecting himself. What a pile of garbage. This is definitely not the way to promote hockey nor for that matter what should be,'Hockey night in Canada'. ALL OF CANADA

Well put. Great ideas. I agree completely that the teams should be held accountable, and I really like the poster that suggested the fines count toward the cap.

But these suspensions are all about optics. If Philly cared about the consequences I don't believe that this would have happened twice.

I think that the NHL should not bother with suspending players, but instead make the troublemakers play every PK without their sticks, maybe even with their hands tied behind their backs.

It would punish the team, and give the offender the chance to feel vulnerable, develop some empathy. Also it would be highly entertaining- The crowds would love it!

I think we're already seeing a gradual decrease in the number of players in the NHL who are there only for their pugilistic "talents".

Implementing some of your proposed ideas would expedite this. Teams would be forced to manage their player personnel more closely and thus leave players like Boulerice in the East Coast League (where they belong).

I love to see two players drop the mitts in the heat of battle (i.e. Iginla, Lecavalier, etc.), but there is no place for talentless goons in today's NHL. With so many gifted young players and the rules enforcement improving the overall flow, the game should be known for it's beauty (i.e. Jonathan Toews' 1st NHL goal) and not the thuggery that becomes fodder for the game's critics.

Maybe teams with a record of tacitly or verbally condoning goon tactics by their players should starting losing high draft picks, or have to forfeit their number 1 pick for the next draft year (or the one after if the pick was traded)to the team who's player was attacked. That, plus high fines and heavy (20-30+) suspensions *might* get the attention of teams with records of violent incidents. Docking points is another option.

Maybe instill huge penalties to player and team on "repeat " offences. First, deal with first offence, but second time round , thow the book at them. Huge fine and season ban. It's sad when a day can't go by without someone speaking or writing about changes needed in the NHL. Give it a break. It is a rugged/physical/fast game.

I'm willing to bet many players careers have ultimately ended because of fair hits, bad ice , injury from touch icing , accidental high stick in eye, etc ... With every so
called illegal incident , someone insists on upping the ante for penalties. If some think it is going back to thugs and goonery, get a grip. Maybe go and take up knitting .

The players are bigger and faster and many are very skilled. Maybe if the size of the actual ice surface were to get slightly bigger, it could offer more room for skilled
players. That would be a good change, as well as no-touch icing and getting rid of the instigator rule.

I wish all those writing in for stiffer NHL laws and penalties would have the same passion for letters to their MP's about changes to Canadian Criminal Law and stiffer penalties for gun and violent crime. More attention and action needed there.

The only thing Gary Bettman and his owners "club" value is money. Therefore the only way to curb NHL goonery is money. Each team is responsible for the players sent on the ice. Each team must be responsible for those actions. Therefore first incident - $1 million fine, second incident and so on, on a doubling scale. Beneficiary - youth hockey, promoting fair play. However, this will never happen as Mr. Bettman does not have the courage to lead his "club".

If you want to punish the team, apply the fine against the salary cap. That will affect the team more then a $100,000 fine against a mutli-millionare owner. As for suspensions, up the minimum and in the case where there is intent to injure, have the offending player sit out as long as the guy who he hurt, then start serving his suspension after the other can return to playing. Why should Downey be able to come back after 20 games if it takes McAmmond 30 games to recover?

If this were a soccer incident the player would be banned for life - maybe the NHL should step up before someone gets killed and start suspending these players for a year as a starter.

$100,000 is chump change to NHL owners. However, reducing the team's salary cap by 500 G's might start to wake them up. Only problem is that I'm sure the Players' Union would cry foul if the league started to reduce salary caps.

I don't think suspensions of marginal players, prospects or coaches can deter foolish behaviour. Even fines are laughable unless they start at 500,000 dollars.

To effectively eliminate these incidents the league should punish team captains or superstars on top of coaches and general managers.

Imagine that Briere, Gagne or Smith serve Boulerice's suspension, or even 1/2 of it?

The impact would be severe starting with lower probability of winning games resulting in less attendance and possibly ending in missing the playoffs.

It probably only need to happen once and the entire league would listen.

Wouldn't the way to punish a team be meaningful if they lost a roster spot for the length of the suspension? If someone is suspended for 20 games his team should lose a player on their game roster for 20 games. Or, in the case of an injury that lasts longer than the initial suspenson, for the length of time that the opposing player is injured.

Elliot,

Good point of view on the topic, however I would like to add one more.

Get the law involved. It is obvious the NHL board of govenors, in its efforts to increase revenue, have lost sight of what is truly damaging the game and thus preventing more revenue. A player that commits a criminal offense (read:assault with an intent to injure) on the ice should be accountable to the law of the land. If convicted, then the NHL should institute a policy that any player found guilty in the courts, is prohibitted from playing in the NHL. I'm not talking about fighting. I am talking about intent to injure.

Think about it: if Downie, or Boulerice, or any other disrespectful NHL idiot faces criminal charges for their actions, then the point of unacceptable behaviour may get through their rock heads. They will not only jeopardize their freedom, but will also lose their pursuit of happiness as well.

In an effort to avoid playing the role of chicken little here, someone is going to die before the NHL board of govenors take the time to pull the money out of their ears and listen to reason. They have lost control over this issue, and as a result they should hand over the responsibility of assigning punishment to the professionals.

When my 7 year old son asks; "Dad, why isn't this guy in jail for doing this?", out of the mouths of babes comes reason. If a child can see this why can't the NHL.

Well said Elliot. I would take it a step further and make any team fines count against their salary cap as well.

In addition to fines and suspensions, they should also take away points from the team for serious on ice infractions. Yes, this means that a team could miss the playoffs because of the actions of individuals, who are part of the "team". It's a team sport, make as many people associated with the team responsible for on ice conduct as possible.

I was listening in on the radio this morning and Pierre McGuire had a good point in saying that the coach/team cannot be directly responsible for the actions of the players, but they can use their discretion on when to put the heavy hitters on the ice.

In the Philly-Vancouver game, why was Boulerice on the ice with so little time left in the game and Philly being up by 6 goals? I've heard that he has a history of bad hits and was even ejected from the OHL for chopping down another player with his stick.

The coach should be diciplined and fined for putting out such a goon on the ice when the game was already in the bag.

As for what sort of punishment hits such as that should get. I think upon review by the NHL, if the hit was clearly behind the play, blatant or could have been avoided - that the player that initiates the cheap shot is out for the entire season, no questions asked. Repeat offenders are ejected from the NHL for life.

We are lucky we have the technology today that record every stride and sound on the ice, I am certain that using these review methods, the league will be able to make the right call 99% of the time.

Excuse me, how much money? FIFA fines are in the millions of pounds. Pocket change to these people will be a cost of doing business. FIFA also has teams play in empty stadia for several games. They are serious about controlling violence. Your proposals would be laughable, if it wasn't sad that you thought they could be effective.

Fines and suspensions are fine, and they need to be implimented and managed. However, if you want a true deterent for mindless acts of aggression, go after the point standings. Maybe each club could lose 2 points for each major(Flyers) infraction. How would that sit with an organization knowing they missed the playoffs because of one idiot on their team? Maybe teams should be policing themselves a little more than they are. Fines do not mean a whole lot with the amount of money these people make. Just a thought.

Interesting proposal - but are you now empowering players who may use team/coach sanctions for their own personal benefit?

Hey - a contract negotiation not going well, or someone not happy with the coach due to ice time - a player could take the matter in their own hands and effectively 'fine' those he is not happy with. This is particlarly the case for a marginal player who is on the way out the door anyway (and most of the players taking part in questionable conduct are in fact marginal).

I'm not entirely convinced that sanctions on the team/coach will work. I do support throwing these guys out the league.

Until the league institutes penalties that affect the entire team/organization, we will continue to see these types of incidents occur. I think a heavy fine should be levied against both the offending player and team and count against the salary cap, in addition to a minimum suspension plus time missed by the injured player. Teams need to be held accountable for the players they employ, as they are in UEFA. As Scott Morrison said, it was by a pure stroke of luck that Kesler was not severely hurt in this malicious attack, which is why this incident is not garnering widespread media attention (at least not in the US). Although the NHL has made great strides on this matter when compared to previous years, I fear that they will not act sternly enough until a marquee player is on the receiving end of a brazen cheap shot. They need to take more steps to ensure that this is eliminated from the game once and for all.

Hockey use to be a nice sport now its become a game of goons and thugs. It use to be about skill and technique, but now its about size and speed. Strange how we think if its bigger then it also better, or if its stronger then its faster. Hockey has to recapture its essense or its going to loose its most loyal supporters. As a national sport, which some Canadians think, this is is a gradual attempt to Americanize it.