Friday April 07, 2017

April 6, 2017 episode transcript

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The AIH Transcript for April 6, 2017

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas



CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight:

CO: A badly-oiled machine. A warmer Arctic means an increase in ocean traffic, and an increased chance of an accident leading to an oil spill and a new report suggests remote areas are not remotely prepared for that.

JD: House calls. A state senator in Hawaii is pushing a new law that would classify homelessness as a medical condition thus allowing doctors to prescribe shelter.

CO: Along for the ride-sharing. After all the controversy, you may be over Uber, but a small town north of Toronto is partnering with the company to provide its citizens a kind of alternative public transit.

JD: Botch of honour. Visitors to a new museum in Sweden will get a breath of fresh error -- because unlike most museums, with their focus on human triumph and ingenuity, blah blah blah, this one focuses on failure.

CO: Deerly be-shove-ed. A BC man has a hard time getting anyone to believe that a deer ran into him, partly because it happened on April Fool's Day -- but now that a security-cam video has been released, it behooves you to see him be hooved.

JD: And...blast at the pasta. New Zealand's prime minister stuns the world by pouring canned spaghetti on pizza, adding pineapple, and then sharing the whole debacle, on purpose, through a selfie on social media.
As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio with shocking scenes of full frontal noodle-ity.

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Part 1: Arctic oil spill readiness, Innisfil Uber, man struck by deer

Arctic oil spill readiness

Guest: John Noksana Jr.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Our world is getting warmer. Year after year, more temperature records are broken, more Arctic sea ice melts, and extreme weather events become more common.
And all that is raising a lot of uncomfortable question for Arctic Canada. Including one you might not have thought of: what happens if there's a major accident?
According to a report released today by World Wildlife Fund Canada, it will not be pretty. As the sea ice melts, more ships are passing through the region, making an accident and a major spill more likely than ever. And the report says there's a serious lack of equipment and training that would be necessary in the event of such a fuel spill.
But John Noksana Jr. knew all that already. He was born and raised in the small community of Tuktoyaktuk, on the coast of the Beaufort sea. Mr. Noksana is an Inuvialuit member of the Canada-Inuvialuit Fisheries Joint Management Committee. Today we reached him in Edmonton.

CAROL OFF: Mr. Noksana, how prepared is the arctic coast for the possibility of some kind of a spill?

JOHN NOKSANA: I would say we ain't ready for it. We have some infrastructure here but the infrastructure we have is quite old. I'm not too sure when, maybe from the 80s. Most likely well most of it is obsolete. I had a chance to tour some containers at the work of the Coast Guard in Inuvialuit a couple of years ago. And you know the stuff’s pretty old.

CO: So the equipment's old and obsolete, but what's new is you have all kinds of new activity in the Arctic right? There's a lot more boating activity, more ships. The waters are filling up with all kinds of vessels. So what is your greatest concern about what might happen in say the Beaufort Sea?

JN: Well right now there's a moratorium on oil and gas so that's turned on the backburner now. But the biggest issue we're probably facing in the near future here is shipping. As you know the ice is leaving earlier. You know what that, there's an integration ship traffic from both private sailboats to cruise ships. So to me that would probably be the biggest threat to us right now.

CO: And this is of course people are very keen about the idea that the Northwest Passage is something they can actually navigate now. So is that where you're seeing most of this new traffic.

JN: Yes a lot of it is people transitioning through the Arctic Northwest Passage. You know these cruise ships like the Crystal Serenity that was a huge ship. You know say it ran aground and punctured the fuel tank whatever. I don't think we’d have the capacity or the infrastructure to contain something like that.

CO: So this report by the World Wildlife Fund of Canada shows some very serious gaps in the ability to respond to any kind of vessel spilling its fuel. It reports that there are small communities as you mentioned obsolete equipment, it's dark for much of the year. Response times would be slow. What do you make of that report?

JN: From where I come from, a place called Tuktoyaktuk, we're still hunter gatherers. We heavily dependent on the land for food you know. Like me, probably 60 percent of my diet comes from the land. Land or sea. You know, everything is connected. So that's the way we think of it. You know, way back in the 50s you know people had a hard time, you know, and the only thing that kept us going was the ocean. So you know how do you put a price tag on my identity? You can't. There's no way.

CO: Can you imagine how you would respond, how you would be able to respond if there was that kind of an accident?

JN: To tell you the truth, we might be able to help out close to town you know. We have 18 to 22 foot boats. Something that happens a way and in deep waters off shore, we are not equipped to go to them. If you take the Gulf of Mexico for example, I don’t know how many shipping boats there, I would imagine. Probably four or five thousand boats I don't know what it is. But you know they have the infrastructure there. You know they have the bigger vessels that they can assist with an oil spill, but you know the infrastructure that we have here there's none.

CO: And what would be the effect but can you imagine what happened if there was some kind of a spill of fuel on those waters?

JN: It did would devastate us as a people. You know, how would we, how would we subsist, where would we get our food from? You know, and like I said how do you put a price tag on my identity? You know, late in the summer there's fish that migrate in and out of the harbor, the harbor where people fish, there’s seals, you know the caribou go down to the water to eat the salt in the winter even, in the summer too they do that. It’s all our staples. Like in the summer we live off the ocean, prepare our food, store it for the whole year, through the winter, try to keep enough till summer comes around again. You know and every season brings a different you know, something different for too often you know things that happen. Who knows what would happen to the populations of animals that use these waters?

CO: Now that this report is out, who do you think what agency should be responding? What is it… federal government because you share those waters also with Alaska and so the United States is involved. Who should be acting on trying to upgrade your ability to respond to something like this?

JN: I think it's across borders, I think both the U.S. government and the Canadian government have to really sit down and rethink about what if.

CO: Well if they read this report, maybe they will act. And meanwhile we'll let you go Mr. Noksana, thank you.

JN: Thank you very much. You have a great day and thanks for calling.

CO: All right, bye-bye.

JN: OK bye-bye.

JD: John Noksana Jr. is an Inuvialuit member of the Canada-Inuvialuit Fisheries Joint Management Committee. He lives in Tuktoyaktuk, in the Northwest Territories. Today though, we reached him in Edmonton.


Innisfill Uber

Guest: Tim Cane

JD: Uber has certainly hit its fair share of potholes. There has been heavy resistance to say the least to the ride-sharing app from many in the taxi industry, for example. But there's also been criticism of the company's business practices, and its controversial founder.
But one small Ontario town is hoping the ride-sharing app can do some good. Instead of investing in traditional public transit models, the town of Innisfil is partnering with Uber. The first stage of the project will launch next month. Tim Cane is the town's manager of land use planning.

CO: Mr. Kane how exactly would this service work for people in Innisfil?

TIM CANE: The service is new and exciting for us and I think probably for many other municipalities. We’re one of the first in Canada and maybe North America, to look at ride sharing as our dedicated transit service.
How it works is it's basically a destination model so if a resident in Innisfil or people visiting Innisfil want to go to a key destination within the town, they pay a flat fee similar to a bus fare three to five dollars to go to that location instead of waiting at a bus stop and waiting for a bus to come along.

CO: And they pick them up at their door?

TC: Correct. They pick you up at your door and take you to that destination.

CO: And do you share that car with anybody else?

TC: Hopefully, you know the whole idea is ride-sharing. And you know the funding that we have available, you know the more people that are sharing those rides, the more viable the service becomes. So the idea is that people will share that ride. If there's not people going in that similar destination or direction then they won't. But if they are then it's great. And it's great from a community building perspective as well because you know you have people that are going to interact while they're on that ride and that will help build a community at the same time through social connections.

CO: Well that happens with public transit sometimes. But so what why not invest in public transit. Why this, why is this the alternative for you?

TC: The incentive for us wasn't very appealing for a town like Innisfil that has a lower population of 36,000 and is very spread out, about the size of Mississauga. It's very unaffordable for us and doesn't allow us to give a good level of service for people with a fixed bus route. So for example, one bus along one route servicing a small portion of our municipality was estimated to cost about $270,000 a year. So that kind of service and that kind of money just isn't sustainable for what we're looking for to build this community take it forward.

CO: So is Innisfil taking its buses out of service?

TC: We don't have a transit system in Innisfil. So this is we're starting off on a on a new footing. We're not in that situation of having to retrofit or adapt an existing transit system this is all new. So all the more reason that we wanted to try something new and at this point unique for the town.

CO: Why did you decide to partner with Uber to do this. Why not just create your own ride-sharing company?

TC: We had a community transit committee that was helping us give some ideas about what they want is a transit system. And one of those key ones was something that we could implement quite quickly and quite effectively and not end up doing another study and waiting and waiting knowing that we had a community demand. Uber and the town you know, we share a collective vision in terms of moving people and building communities, and that shared vision resulted in this partnership that we're excited about where you know as part of the stage one process to try this right sharing experiment. You know a company like Uber with its technology abilities and its experience worldwide on a global basis allows us to have a partner that can help us in the short term and bring new ideas to this town and Ontario for that matter.

CO: You have cab companies in your city, cab drivers, people who have businesses. What's going to happen to them?

TC: We've had discussions with the cab companies as part of this. So the stage one portion where Uber is predominant provider, we're still looking at the cab companies and in discussions with them for them to provide the accessibility transportation piece. As we moved to the stage to model, once we get some of this background data from stage 1, which is very important for us, then we'll be building on that onto that stage model with other community partners. You know whether it's Uber or cab companies or other key employers within the community.

CO: What do you mean accessibility cabs? What will their role be then?

TC: The cab companies have specialized vehicles to carry people with disabilities. So those vehicles where Uber doesn't have those, those vehicles will be used by the local cab companies to serve up important part of the community.

CO: So if I understand this, the cab companies will have the more expensive, more difficult part of the business, and the quick and dirty part, which is you're just taking someone from one place quickly to another place and dropping them off, that's going to go to Uber. How is that fair to your cab companies?

TC: I guess it's how you look at it, you know. It's certainly is a more specialized service. And you know, the cab company is already providing that service and are already experts at doing that. So the idea is you know, much like we fund Uber to provide the majority of rides in the town, the opportunity is for the town to also have that same model in place to allow the cab companies to provide that level of service for us for that part of the community and we'll subsidize those trips the same way that we would with Uber.

CO: Well you’re already getting complaints from the taxi companies right? I mean there was a man, one particular owner of a taxi company told CP 24 that he is concerned that he's not going to able to keep his drivers. He said they'll stick with me for now. But for how long? He sees his business threatened. What do you say to him?

TC: That's why you've had multiple discussions with all our local cab companies. You know we are inviting them into this model. We wanted to be part of this model. You know the stage one aspect does have Uber being a key player in that model, but we want the cab companies to be part of that ultimate ride sharing model and we think there's opportunity there to do that with the technology and with the data once we once we get that working for us.

CO: Do they want to be part of Uber?

TC: You know I can't speak on behalf of the cab company. So we would like them to be a part of it. And we're continuing those discussions to try and get them to try and get them to be part of it.

CO: Well in cities where Uber is functioning, the cab companies are having serious problems because they can't compete with Uber. This is a company that is, well also it has a reputation doesn't it? I mean it has a reputation for problems with passengers and complaints of sexual harassment there. There's worries about how the drivers are treated and what kinds of benefits are not that they get. The company has been accused of a lot of things including putting profit ahead of everything. Did you consider the reputation of Uber before you decided to get into this partnership?

TC: You know we have to look at our knowledge of Uber with how they've been a partner with us up to this point in time moving forward. So as I mentioned to you before, that experience has been good. With respect to cab companies not necessarily wanting to be part of it, you know we do want them to be part of that model. And you know, all the more reason if there are concerns about competing with Uber, all the more reason for them to be part of our transit model moving forward so that we conclude all those people and experts in our community that provide ride services and ride-sharing services.

CO: And if they don't want to they're really not going to have any options are they?

TC: The options will be up to them. You know they'll make decisions based on the discussions that we're having and the opportunities that offer themselves.

CO: And this is when is this going to go into effect? When are you going to have this launched?

TC: We're planning on May 1st. We're gearing up for May 1st launch date which we're quite excited about.

CO: All right well we will check back and thank you Mr. Cane.

TC: Thanks so much for your time.

JD: Tim Cane is the manager of land use planning for the town of Innisfil, Ontario. That's where we reached him.


Deer hit guy

Guest: Cary McCook

JD: Chances are you know someone who has hit a deer. It's unfortunately common here in Canada. What you probably haven't encountered though is anyone who has actually had a deer hit them. So let me introduce Cary McCook of the Kwadacha First Nation. Mr. Cook spent some time trying to convince people that he'd been hit by a deer. It was not easy because it is not usual. And also because it happened on April 1st. We reached Cary McCook in Smithers, British Columbia.

CO: Cary, where were you and what were you doing when you got hit by a deer?

CARY MCCOOK: I was in front of the Stork's Nest Inn in Smithers, British Columbia. Me and my coworkers were just coming back from Paris for a little short visit. And then they're dropping me off. I thought I was going to have a quiet relaxing night. Turns out that fate, or I would call it nature, had other plans.

CO: Now what I can see from the video, we're going to get people to look at it. Someone pulls up in a truck and lets you off. And what happens then?

CM: OK I get the truck, shut the door, as you see I turn my back towards when I shut the door, and I start to make my way towards the entrance. I hear three gallops to my left, before I could process, there was a deer. I tried to get out of the way because my left leg was going left; my right leg was going right leaving me in the middle. Bam I got hit by Bambi.

CO: He or she is moving at a clip when you get hit.

CM: Yes she is. It was a doe. So that was lucky on my part where she would have had horns. So she was going fast and I noticed that he was being chased by a dog.

CO: Aha. That's why she's running so quickly.

CM: That's why she was in full sprint by the time I realized she was in full sprint I was already in the way. She tried to jump over me. I’m fortunately 5’6’’. She couldn’t make the clearance and then bam I got hit.

CO: Was she trying to avoid running into you? She didn't have much I guess time to pivot on that.

CM: No no she never had no time no nothing. We both never had time. It was all just happened right at the right moment just the way it happened.

CO: Did she does she get a sense if she was hurt?

CM: No she, I got hit I was down. I looked up and she kept on going. She kept running.

CO: And what about you?

CM: Me I got up and I just was more in shock. By this time the adrenaline was pumping and I was more in shock of what happened. I went to the truck and I asked my co-worker “Was that a deer? Did you see that deer?” “Yeah.” And I said “That deer hit me.” And then we started with paused a minute to process it because we couldn't believe it. After that we just are having a big laugh about it.

CO: So then what happened? You tried to, you told some people what happened, after it happened.

CM: I was in shock at the time. And then I jumped on the phone automatically. Mind you this is April 1st so everyone's thinking April Fools this, April Fools that, so I call my mom and then I tell her “Mom, I got hit by a deer.” She couldn't believe it. She was like “Oh right, Cary, good one.” And I’m like “No I’m serious. I got hit by a deer in front of my hotel room. Then she wouldn't believe me. So then I talked to my brothers, they wouldn't believe me.” And I was laughing because I'm a hip hop artist and I rap in all my group and I told them. They didn't believe me too so.

CO: So then. So how did how did you finally convince them that this actually happened?

CM: So me I'm laying in my hotel room, because I took a picture right after that because I had deer hair over my left arm and I posted them but still yet no one believed me. And so I was laying in my hotel room that night and I thought hey maybe there's is security camera footage might have caused it if there was one pointing towards the entrance which is usually are. So I got up and checked. Sure enough there to behold there’s a camera pointing at the entrance, the manager was coming back the next day. Had to wait for her to come in and when she did came in we kind of sat down and I asked her if we could play the tape back. She couldn't believe me either. And then we replayed it back that night around 9:00 o'clock. And then there to behold we had camera footage of the deer running it to me. We sat there and laughed about it for the first 15 minutes, and she told me you're able to record over it if you want. You could be able to show me your friends and share it with the world.

CO: And so she saw it, she believed it. But it's really clear. I mean it's not only did you get CCTV footage, but it's actually quite clear what happened to you.

CM: Yeah, the deer actually ran right into me. And exactly how I said it. Like I told my folks in my family how it happened. Like word for word they, never believed me. And the next day after I got the footage I threw it on Facebook. And this thing just went viral. I just skyrocketed up. Everyone was sharing it. And my family they're like “Holy Day. You weren’t joking. You actually got hit by a deer”.

CO: What kind of responses have you had from people?

CM: You know I hear it all. You know, deer whisper, dances with deers, hip hop artist get jumped by a deer. It must be a deer gang you know right. I've been hearing a lot of responses and you know it's awesome because in my side of my heritage, laughter is good medicine it's good for the soul. Like you couldn't get enough of laughter and it's great to see. It is a really fortunate situation. Like I'm glad I'm OK and everything but that's the thing I'm perfectly fine. And just to break that situation, and put it into like a positive one where one just has a good laugh about it, now that that's the dream.

CO: And the deer is OK so...

CM: The deer is OK, I'm OK, all of us are good. We just had a shock. I guarantee the deer was appointed Alpha and I was like running around being all high and saying “Hey I took down a First Nations hunter. What did you do?

CO: Cary, it's great to talk to you. Thanks so much.

CM: Yeah you too. You have a great day.

CO: You too. Bye-bye.

JD: Cary McCook is an environmental management representative at the Kwadacha First Nation in Fort Ware, British Columbia. Also, he’s a rapper with the hip-hop group Reka-NatioN. Last weekend, he was rundown by a deer while visiting Smithers, B.C. You can find more on this story, including the video of his run-in with the deer, on our website, at


Cooking smell

[Sound: Sizzle of onions cooking]

JD: Mm. Those look good. They look good. Another thirty seconds and these onions will be caramelized to perfection. I mean, the Internet tells me it only takes five minutes.
I love cooking, it relaxes me. The only downside to my cooking here in the studio on the hot-plate is I get the sense that Carol doesn't like it. I can sort of sense these little hints she drops. Like, for instance if I'm deboning a trout and then I’m frying it in there, she'll sort of raise her eyebrows and then say something like, "That smells terrible. I don't like it. Please stop doing it." And then if I don't, she storms out. See, I pick up on these subtle clues.
So I can identify with this couple in Monfalcone, Italy, who are also being persecuted for their cooking. Their upstairs neighbours hate the smell of their meals so much that they took them to court. And, in what I consider a dangerous precedent, the couple lost. First in one court, then in a higher court, and finally, in the highest court of appeal in Italy.
See this couple makes a lot of pasta -- in particular, a dish called "fritti misti", which can include squid, smelt, sardines, anchovies, shrimp, and/or octopus. It sounds great. But according to their upstairs neighbours, it smells terrible and it permeates their place. One of them said, "The whole of my apartment became impregnated with the smell of the pasta sauce and the fried fish."
So while the downstairs tenants were on a seafood diet, the upstairs tenants were on a smell-food diet. And all the courts agreed: that stinks.
The top appeals court found the couple guilty and coined an extremely judgmental new term for their crime: "molestia olfattiva" -- "olfactory molestation."
So the couple has to pay a fine of 2,000 euros. OK, over and done with, so now the court can move on to more pressing matters. Because, like me, it has bigger fish to fry.
Hey, my onions are done! These don't look caramelized. These don't look caramelized. The internet wouldn't lie, would it?

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Part 2: Hawaii housing prescription, spaghetti on pizza

Hawaii housing prescription

Guest: Josh Green

JEFF DOUGLAS: When a person who is homeless ends up in the hospital, doctors do whatever they can to help that person. They might give medication, they'll order tests. They might even perform surgery. And once those patients are well enough to be discharged, usually they end up back on the streets. However in Hawaii doctors may soon be able to do something more than simply treat the physical illnesses. They could prescribe housing. State Senator Josh Green has put forward the idea in a bill that would classify homelessness as a medical condition. We reached Dr. Green in Honolulu.

CAROL OFF: Senator Green, why do you think that doctors should be able to write prescriptions for homes?

JOSH GREEN: Well doctors are very close to the challenges that the homeless population faces. I'm a physician in addition to serving as a senator, and for years I've been doing my best to take care of people usually when they come to the E.R. but we have a great challenge. We can only put Band-Aids on people's problems our chronically homeless population usually has pretty big challenges. So I think that by being close to the problem, by being very knowledgeable about our patients, we're in a unique position to try to help our homeless population in this way.

CO: Before we get to what you're proposing, maybe tell us a bit about what as a doctor working in the emergency room, what did you see that might have inspired this idea? What experience did you have with the homeless?

JG: Well I've been at it for 17 years in Hawaii now in the E.R. And what I see is a very wonderful human beings who are suffering. I see the same people over and over again, the same faces, come to the hospital, come to the E.R. because they have nowhere else to go. Not only don't they have a primary care doctor which they would benefit from, but they also don't have a home. And when you are homeless and you have exposure to the elements and exposure to the challenges, the existential challenges that occur on the streets, people become frenetic. They get worse and worse with their behavior health challenges. Depression or anxiety grows, a lot of times psychosis develops. They also have a lot of other diseases and infections that are often just from being exposed to the elements, staph infections. And finally just, if I can be frank, there's a lot of drug addiction in the population of people that are chronically homeless. So I see those problems. But most of them are not very treatable in the E.R.

CO: And what you're describing is something in addition to being unfortunate and difficult for homeless people, it's also very expensive to your health care system.

JG: Right exactly. So 70 percent of my chronically homeless population in Hawaii have either mental illness or drug addiction. The chronically homeless are the 20 percent of our population that are having the greatest struggles. They've been homeless the longest and can't break out of the cycle. So I see all of those individuals and then the cost is fairly catastrophic. For individuals that come to the hospital in some cases 60, 80, 100 times in one year, those bills can be 120, 230,000 dollars per person per year. So for individuals who are on Medicaid, in our state, they're consuming a ton of money, and we're not making them any better. We're not helping their plight. Their medical conditions don't really improve because just the emergency department for a day or two.

CO: The idea for your proposal is that if doctors, when they see people in this condition, they can prescribe that they should have housing, then you get them into some place where they can actually heal and not be so such a burden to the system. But how do you decide who would qualify for a housing prescription?

JG: Well that's kind of the million dollar question. So in this case it's actually not as difficult as you might think. We're a small state, small community. And my ER colleagues and I know the very individuals by name that are chronically homeless with this challenge. Now let me be very direct. From my perspective, homelessness is a medical condition. I can back that up with the fact that people who are homeless only live to be 50 years of age. The rest the population lives to be 78 to 81 in America. So that's the first point.
The second point is how do you do the prescriptions? Well look I write prescriptions for significant care all the time that costs far more than housing. Now that I know the individuals, they've been houseless or homeless for more than six months and they have these other conditions. I write the prescription and then it would do what all prescriptions do. It would have to be approved by the insurance companies that's covering it. And in this case also, I think, the Department of Human Services who oversees how that as soon as that's approved, if you put the person in housing and this is where people have to realize it's a good fiscal policy, their health care costs dropped precipitously.
We found in Hawaii that healthcare spend dropped 43 percent as soon as we got people into stable housing making so many other things possible with our Medicaid budget for that individual and whoever else in their lives, whoever else has needs.

CO: But you know I'm sure from talking to social workers and people who work with homeless people, is that there is a percentage of them who, if you give them housing, they will return to the street. That is not the solution for them that, they can't cope with that. So how do you do the triage? How do you determine who's going to benefit and who might just not want this solution?

JG: The very people, the social workers that you just alluded to, will be integral parts of the decision making tree. You're right. Not everyone will avail themselves of this program. It might only be half or a third or a quarter of the people that will take this opportunity. But any solution that helps some of our chronically homeless, benefits all, benefit society. And so even if we only have a small percentage successfully getting the housing who are right now struggling, the savings are extraordinary which changes, totally changes the trajectory of our budget. And then we can work to the next stage in the next stage to help that individual. Maybe the prescription is just beginning to get someone into housing. Maybe they'll get two months clear of the streets. And by that time we can get them the mental health care that they need.

CO: And when do you think that this bill will be or may be passed?

JG: Well we passed both of the bills, Senate bill 2 and Senate bill 7. Both address this issue. We passed them on the floor unanimously in the Senate. They'll go over to the House right before I spoke with you, I was speaking to the vice speaker of the house and making my case he's a close friend and I expect them to do well over there as well. So if these bills pass in May when our session wraps up I would expect all of the work to begin. So it's pretty immediate because I want to accelerate this to see if what can work in Hawaii can then be translated across the country in the world.

CO: A lot of people who advocate these kinds of policies will be watching this very closely Senator Green, and it's good to talk to you. Thanks.

JG: It's really my honor. Thanks for having me.

CO: Bye.

JG: Bye-bye.

JD: State Senator Josh Green has put forward a bill that would classify homelessness as a medical condition. We reached Dr. Green in Honolulu. There's more on that story on our website,


RCMP Settlement

JD: It happened to more than 30 years ago. But today an RCMP officer is finally being compensated for the abuse she suffered at the hands of her colleagues. Almost four years after she sued. Staff Sergeant Caroline O'Farrell has reached a settlement deal with the RCMP. She said she experienced harassment, and had been sexually assaulted, while taking part in the Mounties' famous Musical Ride show in the 1980s.
Last October the RCMP made a historic announcement. Commissioner Bob Paulson apologized to women on the force who said they'd been harassed and abused. And he announced a 100-million-dollar settlement for those who were part of two class-action lawsuits against the force.
At the time, Staff Sargeant O'Farrell was left wondering where she stood because she was suing the police force in a separate claim. Soon after the RCMP's apology, she spoke to Carol on this program.


CO: Staff Sergeant O'Farrell, how did you feel when you heard Commissioner Paulson’s apology?

CAROLINE O’FARRELL: I was very happy. I was very grateful. It's been a long time coming and I didn't quite expect it. So I was a bit taken aback and very happy that yeah it came from the top.

CO: What did it mean for you personally?

O’FARRELL: It felt good somewhat, but my name wasn't mentioned. I'm not part of the class action suit and it still felt good to some degree. But until I get my specific lawsuit settled I think it will feel better then.

CO: Can you tell us what happened when you were part of the RCMP musical ride?

O’FARRELL: OK. That's a hard one because so much happened to me. I wanted to be a member of the RCMP since I was a little girl. When I tried out for the equitation course in 1986, I was like a dream come true. Not only was I a Mountie but now I could wear the red serge and ride a horse and represent Canada throughout Canada and the world. So it meant the world to me.
And I just want to be categorically clear that what I went through is a vulgar word for manure trophing. When I went to the troughings, the word starts with s. Anyways, when I went through them, this was not something that was routine. This was not a common hazing.

CO: And this, just so I understand this and manure stroughing, can you can you describe what they did to you?

O’FARRELL: Well they gang up on you, they grab you, they hold you above a concrete floor by your limbs. You try to fight back. You try to escape, you can't. And if you try you could get seriously injured because this is happening on the concrete floor in the stables. They hose you down with a hose and then they drag you face down through the riding school which is full of urine and feces and then they kick the shavings on your face. They did this to me right before my wedding and sent me to my bachelorette party looking like this because there was no place for me to shower and I didn't have extra clothes to put on. And that's how I arrived at my bachelorette party.

CO: This happened to me several times. They also pulled down the zipper of my coveralls and poured cold water hose on my white T-shirt wearing a bra and said let's see your high beams come out. But that was the first time they had done that in who knows maybe 50 years. And that was acknowledged by the commissioner at the time, Commissioner Inkster who called this archaic, and he was outraged and appalled that this had happened in 1986 and 87.

JD: That was Staff Sergeant Caroline O'Farrell speaking on As It Happens last October. Today, she reached a settlement with the RCMP. Staff Sergeant O'Farrell sued the force four years ago, claiming sexual assault and harassment by colleagues in the ‘80s.


Spaghetti Pizza

Guest: Jenna Lynch

JD: Not so very long ago at all, we shared a story that divided people around the world. It was about the president of Iceland and his opposition to pineapple on pizza. Now it's been a couple of months since he made those remarks, and it does finally seem like the rifts have been breached or crossed. Families are healing, friends are reuniting. Now however New Zealand's prime minister has opened a whole new can of worms by opening a can of something else. Bill English posted a picture of the pizzas he cooked for his family. On those pizzas were pineapple and canned spaghetti.
Jenna Lynch is a political reporter with Newshub. We reached her in Wellington, New Zealand.

CO: So Jenna, where does your nation stand on this complex issue of canned spaghetti sauce on pizza?

JENNA LYNCH: Well it’s actually truly divided the nation. There is one half of the nation saying I love this. This is this reminds me of my childhood, it's nostalgic. The other half of the nation is saying Prime Minister, you're an abomination and you should be impeached. This is a crime on pizza basically. So it’s really divided things over here.

CO: And I should say, it's not just like the sauce. We're talking about canned spaghetti.

JL: That's right. It's canned spaghetti. It looks to be Wattie’s spaghetti which is the famous New Zealand brand. It's been around for decades and decades. It looks a little bit disgusting but I have to admit I have tried this as a child and it's actually not that bad. It's kind of delicious.

CO: You've had, you’re on the side of those who agree that canned spaghetti on pizza is good.

JL: I probably wouldn't eat it nowadays. It was kind of a bit of a thing back in the 90s. But that's not awful. Is that a ringing endorsement?

CO: No, I don’t think so. How did we come to know that New Zealand's prime minister has canned spaghetti on his pizza? Or actually makes it?

JL: Well he went out and told us so he posted the picture on Monday on his Facebook page saying “I cooked dinner for the family last night. And like if you agree with tinned spaghetti on pizza” so he's brought this up himself. No and no one made him do this. Obviously there's been this huge debate around the world I think triggered by the Icelandic prime minister about pineapple on pizza but he's basically put that debate on steroids and de it a little bit Kiwi and here we are.

CO: And so there’s not just canned spaghetti on the pizza but he has put pineapple on top of that canned spaghetti is that right?

JL: He's put pineapple on top of it. So it’s canned spaghetti, little bit of catsup by the looks of things. That's some bacon, pineapple. And for those looking for being a little bit more gourmet, chuck some spring onions on there as well.

CO: So Bill English made this for his dinner. I understand he's got quite a big family.

JL: He does he have he has six children. And from what I understand he actually makes time every week to go and cooks them dinner once a week. So this was on the menu that night obviously. And it was actually one of his kids that told him to put it on Facebook. He kind of issued this challenge to him. He said “Dad, you're boring on Facebook. You need to make it a little bit more personal. So why don't you put up a picture of your pizza?”
I have to admit he has to say sorry. He could probably work on his selfie game a little bit. The selfie is not doing him any favors. But it does show a little bit of personality from a guy that traditionally has and hasn't really been that exciting.

CO: What's been you said the nation is divided. Tell us some of the reactions.

JL: Well some of the comments on here basically are saying “I can't believe you posted this. Not being a pizza snob or anything but why on earth would you promote such garbage?” And then sort of on the other side of the coin where people are looking at it going “Oh I remember eating this. This is delicious.” But no one's eaten it for 15, 20 years.

CO: Now as Kiwis ponder this weighty issue what political developments in New Zealand they are not talking about?

JL: Well there has been there has been a couple of other issues around at the moment. I mean it's basically dominated the news cycle and taken focus off of them other things. We've got the leader of the opposition in court in a defamation case in London but everyone seems to be talking about this pineapple and spaghetti on pizza which… if that's what they care about, then power to them.

CO: We also got some issues of the time that New Zealand, armed forces were in Afghanistan. So that's something maybe the prime minister doesn't want people talking about.

JL: That's right. There was there was a book released two weeks ago which outlined our involvement in a raid in Afghanistan and there were some questions raised as to whether any civilians died in that raid. Basically all of the questioning about that has also stopped this week. He’s has kind of been able to take the focus off it.

CO: Do you think is it possible that this was the diversion that the prime minister wanted?

JL: I mean it could have been a calculated move.

CO: Has it worked?

JL: It seems to have worked. No one's talking about the allegations anymore. They were all talking about pineapple on pizza. I mean in the prime minister’s stand up yesterday, it was the first question he was asked. There was no policy questions. There's actually a flood happening at the moment. He wasn't asked about the flood. He was asked about this pizza. So all focus seems to be on this abomination.

CO: And so how long do you think that this great abomination story which is a great distraction. How long are the legs?

JL: It seems to have died down in New Zealand a little bit. The Australians have kind of picked it up. Obviously you guys kind of picked it up. I think it's featured in The Guardian over and over in the UK so internationally I think it's dividing people now too.

CO: We’ll see if it lasts much longer and we'll see how many people will actually try spaghetti sauce or canned spaghetti on their pizza and see what it's like.

JL: Yeah that's right. Are you looking to try it?

CO: I'm not sure I’m going to try it. I don’t think I particularly like canned spaghetti to begin with. I'm not sure how it would be on top of… but maybe with the pineapple it's sort of you know distracts you from the canned spaghetti part.

JL: That’s right. I challenge you actually. Give it a go and let us know how you go.

CO: We’ll issue this challenge to Canadians and see what they think. Jenna it's great to talk to you. Thanks.

JL: Thank you.

CO: Bye-bye.

JD: Jenna Lynch is a reporter with News hub in New Zealand. We reached her in Wellington. And you can find more on this story including photos of that pizza on our website If you have a sensitive stomach you may want to wait a while after dinner.


Don Rickles obituary

JD: For a performer, hurling an insult at one the world's most famous, and famously short-tempered, men is not usually considered a good career move.
But Don Rickles was not your usual standup comic. According to the Washington Post, In 1957, Mr. Rickles spotted Frank Sinatra in his audience, and he said: "Hey, Frank, make yourself at home: Hit somebody!"
Legend goes that his risky quip impressed Sinatra and launched Don Rickles' comic career, which in turn inspired a whole generation of so-called 'insult comics.' Don Rickles died today. He was 90 years old.
Mr. Rickles is the reason that only audience members who don't know any better or are suckers for punishment fill up the front row seats at any modern comedy show. He made insulting the audience into an art form.
He also made forays into film, as the voice of Mr. Potato Head in the Toy Story movies, and casino manager Billy Sherbert in Martin Scorsese's Casino. In 2009, on q, Jonathan Torrens spoke to Don Rickles. Here is part of their conversation.


DON RICKLES: And my day in striptease joints. They had the girls with the stars and usually it was one comic like me, or two of us. And while they went backstage to change their little outfits, we used to stand out there and do material and that's how I got my humour from, talking to the audience, because they weren't exactly the class of the crop. And so I used to talk to the audience and that developed into my performance of my style.

JONATHAN TORRENS: So you don't like the term “insult comic”. How would you define your brand of comedy?

DR: Well I exaggerate everything. And it's never mean spirited and the word insult always stuck with me so I went along with it. But it's really not an insult to somebody that’s offensive. And I'm certainly wouldn’t be headlining all over the country if I was offensive. So it's really making fun of exaggeration, of all our insecurities and everything else and exaggerating it, making fun of it. I think that's pretty much what it is.

JT: Do you ever remember a moment where you thought “I shouldn't say what I'm about to say but it's too late.”

DR: No. I'd say it. I’d say I think it's funny that I've said something that somebody else did like it but I thought it was funny.

JT: So you telling me in your whole career you don't regret a single joke.

DR: Oh gee, you go back 50 years. I don't, I don't belabor that. I don't even think about it. You know something that was lousy in my life right, I don't think about it, it's gone. But on top of my head, no I don't recall ever being unkind to anybody but I'm sure the people in the audience might think so. But to be very honest, no I don't say anything that I'm upset about.

JT: Was Frank Sinatra funny?

DR: Yeah, in his way, but I did all the humour for him. He tried to come up with some jokes but he wasn't really a joke teller really. He was a charming wonderful man but jokes were not his thing but he liked to think so. But we laughed because we didn't want him to get mad.

JT: Right. It seems to me like throughout your career when you said things that might have offended groups of people, everybody kind of chalks it up to “That's just Rickles” almost like that's your Get Out Of Jail Free card. Do you feel that way?

DR: Well that's true. You said it.

JT: What is it about Rickles that allows you to get away with that?

DR: Well it's not a question of getting away with it, Jonathan. They come to see me, they enjoy it and they talk about it. You know, some people don't enjoy it. Well we'll talk about it, but it's not something you get away with. It's me. It's with it's what I do and what they expect to see. When they come to see me, they don't expect to hear a poem for crying out loud. They expect to see what I do and that's what I do.

JD: From 2009 that was Jonathan Torrens in conversation with comic Don Rickles on q. Don Rickles died today in Los Angeles. He was 90 years old.

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Part 3: Failure museum, brain-controlled arm

Museum of Failure

Guest: Samuel West

JEFF DOUGLAS: A trip to any museum can blow your mind whether it's early stone tools or the first ever computer. Museums are jam packed with the successes of humanity. But that isn't the kind of museum Samuel West has in mind. In June, Mr. West will open the Museum of Failure in Helsingborg, Sweden and as its name suggests, the place is going to be jam packed with flops of all kinds.
We reach Samuel West at the Copenhagen airport.

CAROL OFF: Samuel, can you give us some examples of the kinds of things that I might find in your Museum of Failure?

SAMUEL WEST: Well I've got Kodak's first digital camera for consumers. The actual camera wasn't actually a failure, but the digital camera was Kodak’s fault because they failed to adapt their business model to the changes going on. It's kind of ironic that Kodak went bankrupt the same year that Instagram was sold to Facebook for one billion dollars. So the failure here wasn't the actual technical device. It was a failure to adopt the business model. That’s one example.
Another example on another end of the scale, is Bic, pen manufacturer. In 2011, they created a pen just for women. You know that women can use regular pens. They need special pens for their delicate hands.

CO: I've been having that problem all my life, I've been waiting for hand designed for me.

SW: Well lucky you. And they're double the price of regular pens because they are especially for women.

CO: I understand you have a Harley Davidson perfume.

SW: Yeah it's a great one. Yeah I think it was in ’96. Harley Davidson thought that they would sort of get some more money out of their brand and so they launched a series of other products including this perfume called the Hot Rod Collection. And it didn't resonate with Harley-Davidson macho guys. They’re like “What? We don’t want any perfume. What’s this?” There was this huge backlash.
An example of maybe not a technical innovation but they were trying to be innovative with heir brand and it backfired.

CO: What did it actually smell like? Did it smell like grease and diesel fumes?

SW: Everybody says that. But my colleague at the office said, I put it on when I finally got a hold of it and then they said “Somebody smells like urine.”

CO: Oh no.

SW: I think that's unfair. I mean it's you know it's been in the bottle for a long time. I think it's unfair but it's not the best perfume.

CO: You have something called the Twitter Peek. What is that?

SW: I love that one. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful little device. Launched 2008. It only tweets. It has no other function right? The only problem is that it doesn't even tweet very well so it was a real pain to tweet because you could only read of the 140 characters, you could only read maybe 25 characters, so a partial tweet on a tweeting device. And there was one reviewer who wrote “The fact that the Twitter Peek even exist so dumb that it makes my brain hurt.”

CO: Samuel, why did you decide to do this? Why? I mean we like to celebrate your successes, the ingenuity of humanity. Why did you decide to go for its failures?

SW: Well I'm an innovation researcher and I got of fed up with everybody worshipping success the entire time. So I know and everybody in the in the business knows that 80 to 90 percent of all innovation projects fail but we never hear anything about them. There are sort of in the margin. Everybody wants to sort of showcase their successes and say we want to learn from best practices. That's fine. But when 90 percent fail there's a lot of things to be learned from the failures as well.
So I started collecting a few ideas, I was trying to get my hands on some of the failures that I knew about. And then it turned into an obsession. So now I've got about 50 different innovation failures.
There's a saying that you know it's wise to learn from your own mistakes but it's even wiser to learn from the mistakes of others. So one of the purposes of the museum is to encourage people to actually investigate, examine and try to instead of avoiding talking about failures and discussing, and actually examine it and try to learn as much as possible from the failures that have been done.

CO: It's interesting what you're saying, is that I you're not mocking these failures. You're not making fun of them. Derision is not your purpose. It is almost like a celebration of human ingenuity and sometimes it fails and we should we should celebrate, you know, our effort to try and get something.

SW: It's impossible to create any new product or service or have any new thoughts, philosophies, society changes. All of those things are impossible without taking the risk of failure. And I think we speak in disgust. I think failure gets way too little attention.
I mean organizations are like us, people in many ways. They avoid the emotional discomfort of dealing with and unfortunately they avoid learning from their failures.

CO: Where did you get the idea?

SW: I got the idea from last summer, I was at a museum in Croatia, the capital of Croatia in Zagreb, the museum the Museum of Broken Relationships. And then the museum contained all kinds of objects, physical objects that were related to or symbolize the relationship that was now broken. I thought this museum was awesome. And after that I was convinced that I have to start the Museum of Failure.

CO: We actually covered that Museum of Failed Relationships on this show. It was really it was very endearing. It was quite warm.

SW: I loved it. And it's not only, I mean it’s easy, the same as the Museum of Failure. It's easy to laugh at it at first. That's a strange idea. But then there's something, there's something deeply human about it as well, there’s not only positive aspects, there’s bad aspects as well. And when it comes to the Museum of Failure, failed innovation. There are some sad things. The fact that 160,000 people lost their jobs when Kodak went bankrupt. That's sad.
The fact that some of the medical innovations that I have, people, patients died. So it's not only you know some and ridiculous products. There’s some tragic things.

CO: Well, Samuel, one success I'd like you to have is to get your flight. So I know we're keeping you. And but it's lovely to hear about your museum. Thank you so much.

SW: Thank you very much.

CO: Take care. Bye-bye.

JD: Samuel West's Museum of Failure is set to open in Helsingborg Sweden in June. We reached Mr. West at the airport in Copenhagen. And as Carol mentioned there we we first heard about the Museum of Broken Relationships back in 2007. At that time, it was a touring installation. So when we caught up with the director of the museum Zvonimir Dobrovic, he was in Germany. Carol wanted to know about one exhibit in particular: the axe.


ZVONDIMIR DOBROVIC: Yes, the axe is becoming very popular. It was a very short but obviously intense relationship lesbian relationship from a few years ago. And as one of the two women went on a trip to America, the other partner fell in love with another woman, and on her return she bought the axe and destroyed all the furniture of the cheating partner and kind of kept the ax as a souvenir or as she called it, a therapeutic toy. But now she donated to the museum so I think women are safe.

CO: And what about the Christmas reindeer?

ZD: That's a very sad story actually because it's the most fresh breakup. It comes from one married couple. One woman sent it to us. It represents the first and only Christmas that they spent together as a married couple and their divorce is actually coming into effect during the exhibition.

CO: Oh my.

ZD: So we have you know all kinds of stuff. It's not all fun. But in the end most of the objects, most of the stories behind it, are kind of optimistic, because they show that people in a way survive a breakup and many times people write also they laugh at themselves, they write cynical things how they were treating the other partner. We have a mobile phone for example which one girl gave to us, and it is a mobile phone that belonged to her ex-boyfriend and he gave it to her so she could stop calling him.

CO: Just before we go, what's your favorite item in the collection.

ZD: I really liked the one wedding dress from Zagreb from this woman. If we can give it back to her if she decides to marry again. That’s lovely.

CO: Mr. Dobrovic, it’s good to talk to you.

ZD: Thank you very much.

CO: Good luck with the exhibition.

ZD: Thanks.

CO: Thanks, bye-bye.

JD: From our archives, that was Zvonimir Dobrovic of the Museum of Broken Relationships, speaking to Carol back in 2007.


Brain controlled arm

Guest: Bill Kochevar

JD: Bill Kochevar may not be able to feel his arms, but he can now use one of them to feed himself.
In 2006, the U.S. Navy veteran from Cleveland had a bicycle accident that left him paralyzed from the shoulders down. Now thanks to a clinical trial using implanted electrodes, he can move his arm and hand. And all he has to do is think about it.
The research was published recently in the medical journal The Lancet. We reached Bill Kochevar in the lab, at Cleveland's VA Medical Center.

CO: Bill, what was it like to move your arm again?

BILL KOCHEVAR: It was amazing because I had no clue what that was going to be able to accomplish and nobody had ever tried this before with both the braingate and and FES system implanted so I was like wow, there's a lot of possibility in this. And I immediately started thinking of things I could possibly do with it.

CO: And so this has been, since 2006 when you had this accident on your bike and you've been paralyzed from the shoulders down ever since, you've not been able to use your arms since then. Is that right?

BK: That's correct.

CO: And so now you can, With the help of this equipment you can move the one arm.

BK: Right. I can move in and out, up and down and I can close my grasp.

CO: Can you just tell us a bit about how it works?

BK: Well what happens is, there’s two reporting arrays in my head and we're recording the brain waves of me thinking of what I want to do. And then it goes to… computers that deciphers that information and creates signals that electrified electrodes and move in a specific pattern that makes me move in out, up and down, whatever.

CO: You're thinking about what you want to do you actually sending the message yourself.

BK: Right. What happens is the system knows when I'm thinking about a certain pattern, it knows that I want to go up or down. And then what I do is I think about what I want to do, it matches that up with patterns and then says, "Oh. He wants to moves up and moves up."

CO: When you were first able to do that after nine years of not being able to activate your arm, when you first saw that arm do what you wanted it to do, how did you feel?

BK: I felt glad. I was really happy, even though, when I stopped using the system, I can't do all that right now. I know that the work I'm doing now is going to help a lot of people later on.

CO: You say the work you're part of. This is research. They're still doing this right. How did you come to take part in the research?

BK: One of my doctors here at the VA in Cleveland, became to me for one of my yearly physicals and said I have a couple of projects you might be interested in participating in. One was bladder control and I didn't want that. And then he said the next one is a little Star-Trek. And I said “Oh” and I perked up a little bit and he what the BrainGate was and what he knew about it. And I said “Wow, that sounds interesting”, and then he said, “Can I have the BrainGate guys call you?” and I said “Sure”. They called the next day, “When can we come over?” and the next day after that were there explaining how this works and what we're doing and I said “Yeah I think I'd like to do this.

CO: And did you have any reservations or did you and your family have reservations?

BK: I think the only thing was when I was doing the consent form, my father and I had to talk and he asked me “Do you really want to do this?” I said “Yes. If nobody does research nothing gets done and I've got the time to do it.” And I was very willing and I was more than happy to do that wasn't that scary.

CO: And this was a matter of this sort of leapfrogging over your spinal cord and it’s injury, going from the brain to your to the muscles in your arm. What have you been able to do?

BK: Originally we just did stuff on the computer. We had virtual arms that I moved in and out to make sure that my brain was sending the correct signals. And then they put the electrodes in and I was able to move my arm in and out, up and down, close my grasp and I did that. And then when I became professional at that, they said we need to put more electrodes in. And they did. And then I was able to do functional tasks. And with functional tasks, I've been able to drink water, coffee, eat a pretzel stick, mashed potatoes and even some mac and cheese.

CO: And up to now you have somebody feed you.

BK: That's correct. Everything I eat has to be fed to me and now I’m at the beginning stages of being able to do it myself.

CO: That's extraordinary.

BK: Yes it is.

CO: And you’re at the beginning stages. You work with this when you're at the clinic. Is it possible that you could have a portable version of this that you could actually take with you in your life?

BK: They’re working on that. It's going to be quite a while before they do. They've got to create totally implantable electrodes in the head that are wireless, same thing with the arm, they have to totally implant it. And then they're working on making a small version… computers that will hang on the chair and then I'll be able to move around, use my system when I need to, turn it on, shut it off, and continue on.

CO: How will that change your life if you're able to do that?

BK: It would be great. There would be some things I'd be able to do by myself — which, when you're paralyzed and can't do stuff — you miss being able to do some of that stuff.

CO: What's the thing you most want to be able to do?

BK: Eat a whole meal by myself.

CO: That's not much to ask, is it?

BK: Well it will be difficult the first time I do it but as I continue to do it I'll get better at it.

CO: It's just something we all take for granted and it would be such a great thing for you.

BK: Right.

CO: Also because you're involved in this research. You're laying down a path for others who are also in the same situation, who are paralyzed, who one day will be able to benefit from what you're doing. How does that make you feel?

BK: It makes me feel happy that I’m helping future people who may get the implants. And you know get a commercial device that eventually comes about, and you know I know that when I stop doing it, the benefits to me stopped. But the benefits will keep going on to more and more people.

CO: Well Bill, I hope that this is something that that works out for you and does change your life in that way and it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

BK: You're welcome.

CO: Take care.

BK: Bye.

CO: Bill Kochevar is a U.S. Navy veteran from Cleveland. Thanks to experimental implants, he can move his arm for the first time in almost a decade. The new research was published in the medical journal The Lancet. You can find more on this story on our website,


Cannibalism Study

JD: You know back in the day just before your fellow Neanderthals killed you in order to eat you? It probably went through your head “Are they doing this just because I'm filled with nutrients or is this something more.”
Well we have some good news for our ancient ancestors who were consumed by their peers. You weren't just nutrients. You did mean something. Exactly what you meant, we don't know. But thanks to an expert on human evolution by the name of James Cole, we do know that you probably were not cannibalized simply because your pals were hangry.
Mr. Cole is the lead author on a new study that takes on a long-debated question on: did prehistoric humans eat one another simply for nourishment, or for more complicated reasons.
To answer that, James Cole decided to calculate exactly how much nutritional value there is in a human body.
And if you consider yourself to be both succulent and substantial, bad news. Mr. Cole determined that an adult male weighing 66 kilograms, 145 pound, relatively slight, that that adult male contains only about 144,000 calories. That might sound like a lot. But a mammoth contained 3,600,000 calories. And a horse, about 200,000. Just two of many better options, nutrition-wise.
Mr. Cole says, "What this suggests is that we aren't terribly nutritious." Although he also told Discover Magazine, "Having some time to reflect on it, it was quite a weird thing to think about how calorific I am as a person."
So if ancient humans' ribs weren't exactly stick-to-your-ribs, why did they eat each other? That Mr. Cole doesn't know -- but he suspects the reasons were complex.
And I guess they were. And let's hope those reasons don't suddenly come rushing back to us. Because though I am a pretty good runner, but if modern humans turn cannibal, that may just make me fast food.

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