Tuesday November 22, 2016

Nov. 21, 2016 episode transcript

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The AIH Transcript for November 21, 2016

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas



CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol off. Good evening.

JEFF DOUGLAS: I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens. Tonight.

CO: Fighting for water against water, indigenous protesters are still standing against the Dakota Access pipeline even after being tear gassed and sprayed with water by police in freezing temperatures.

JD: He was in prison for shooting her. Now he is out of prison because of her. We speak with a Florida man who received early release this month and the woman he shot 26 years ago who is now in his corner.

CO: Unholy matrimony. Tomorrow three people from Bountiful, B.C. will face charges for taking children to the U.S. to marry members of the FLDS (Fundamentalist of Jesus Christ Church of Latter-Day Saints) including leader Warren Jeffs.

JD: It doesn't fold under pressure. For one thing it's already folded. For another it is made to stand up to pressure because it is a bike helmet that is cheap and recyclable and made of paper.

CO: She was one Jones with whom it was hard to keep up. After leaving her job as a prison guard the late Sharon Jones never looked back. Tonight the man who signed her looks back at the powerhouse singer who made the most of her shot.

JD: And the chapter and the voice just over 80 years ago someone made the first ever audio book and now that it's been discovered in Canada we're going to find out how the format slowly became a word of mouth success As It Happens. The Monday edition, radio that guesses books have always been permitted. But now they were allowed.

[Music: Theme]

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Part 1: North Dakota pipeline protest, Bountiful trial, Sharon Jones, Frist audio book

North Dakota pipeline protest: latest

Guest: Jesus Wagner

JD: The protesters were already cold, but the police response was positively chilling. Today Indigenous protesters continue their stand against the construction of the Dakota Access pipeline. They are worried that the pipeline's planned route under the Missouri River could threaten their water source. Last night police used tear gas and rubber bullets against the protesters and then sprayed them with water cannons in temperatures that had dropped below zero Celsius. We reached Jesus Wagner earlier today at the site of the standoff near Cannonball, North Dakota.

CAROL OFF: Mr. Wagner, tell us what you are seeing where you are right now.

JESUS WAGNER: OK so there's about 150 of us on the bridge of Highway 1806. And everyone is at the barricades there's four humvees, two tanks with water cannons and sound cannons. But right now we just have a line formed. 150 of us on the north side of the bridge and the police want us to move back towards the south side of the bridge.

CO: And they can you see on the other side of the barricade can you see what's what's there?

JW: Yeah yeah, I'm on top of a hill and I have a good view. There's about at least 40 police cars, a couple of police busses and I would say there is about 50 cops in riot gear.

CO: And what are the police telling you to do.

JW: They told us if we don't move back to the south side of the bridge then they're going to use force.

CO: What kind of force?

JW: The same thing that they were using last night. Water cannons, rubber bullets, mace, tear gas, flash-bang grenades.

CO: Can you describe what happened last night?

JW: When I got here last night there was a number of us with shields to deflect the tear gas, rubber bullets and hose cannon. Pushing through their barricade. But none of us got through. And it was the police who was provoking the crowd. using violence against non-violence. They shot at least 50 to 35 tear gas canisters from what I'd seen.

CO: Did the police use of force did it affect you were you? Were you hit by any of that?

JW: Yeah, I was shot I was shot two times with rubber bullets. I was maced, I was drenched by the water cannons and hit with the tear gas grenades.

CO: And you still spent the night out there?

JW: Well, I had to go back for a change of clothes and get warm. I came back out and got maced and you know there's just a lot of confrontation. A lot of us are just trying to we're begging for the police to to help us stop the Dakota Access pipeline.

CO: You asked the police you're saying what you want to do is to get to the other side and do and to try and attempt the to stop the construction of the Dakota pipeline.

JW: Yes. We're begging the police. We are still begging the police to help us stop the pipeline.

CO: The police say that they are responding to what they call an ongoing riot and they've described the protesters as very aggressive. What do you say to Martin County Sheriff's Department?

JW: That's a lie, because we're here in prayer. We're here in prayer. We're peaceful. We're unarmed and it's them who are coming just for riots. They are the ones who are starting the riot with their tear gas canisters. We just want to go and stop this corporation of the Dakota Access pipeline.

CO: If you could get to the other side. What would you do?

JW: Make the construction workers stop working.

CO: They also say - the police say - that you're trying to flank them to move around the barricade and get from behind them is that the case?

JW: Yes that's true yes, because they have such armed forces that it's very hard to move through them - to push forward. So we have to go around them. We're doing our best to move around them, but you know I mean the only way to stop the pipeline is to get there physically and make that stop.

CO: When you do go around them when you do flank go around the barricade. What do the police do?

JW: They have Humvees and ATVs ready their shoot with rubber bullets. You know tasers whatever they need to use to try to do and arrest a lot of protectors.

CO: When you were shot with rubber bullets What were you doing?

JW: To be honest I was throwing logs on top of the razor wire they have. I was throwing logs on top of that to smash down the razor wire. So so we could have access to to push through. And then and then and they shot me.

CO: And so you didn't get to the razor wire then?

JW: Right right.

CO: The pipelines construction under the Missouri River which you're protesting against this and that is going over your territory. It's now they are saying that they're going to delay that - have more consultations — so what do you need to see happen before you would stop your demonstration?

JW: well, they are working you know they are not stopping. There's two drill pads on each side of the river and they're working every day. Yeah like I said, the only way to stop them is to march up there physically and make that stuff stop physically.

CO: So you're saying that they have not delayed the construction as they said they were going to do?

JW: Right. And they're still working.

CO: So what would be a victory? What do you need to see happen before you would say yes we have done what we set out to do we can go home? What would what would make you go home?

JW: For the pipeline to be dismantled and taken to where were they started making it. And for the police to join us and help us arrest the real criminals. And that's all these corporations and banks that are investing in this pipeline.

CAROL OFF: Mr. Wagner, we will continue to follow this story and I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

JESUS WAGNER: Thank you. Have a good day.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Jesus Wagner is protesting the Dakotah access pipeline. We reached him earlier today near Cannonball, North Dakota.

[Music: Folk]

Bountiful, BC trial: Salt Lake Tribune reporter

Guest: Nate Carlise

JD: For years members of a polygamist sect in Bountiful, British Columbia have faced allegations that they have forced girls into marriage. Now three members of that community are about to go to trial. They're accused of taking two teenagers into the United States in 2004 to be married. One of them two FLDS or fundamentalist Latter-Day Saint sect leader, Warren Jeffs. Brandon J. Blackmore, Emily Gail Crossfield Blackmore and James Oler faced charges of removing a child from Canada for sexual purposes for ten years. Now Salt Lake Tribune has had official polygamy reporter to cover stories just like this. Nate Carlisle is the paper's current polygamy reporter. We reached him in Salt Lake City.

CAROL OFF: Nate, we know there are two young women at the center of this trial. Can you tell us first of all about the younger one?

NATE CARLISE: Yes. So the accusation is that two of the defendants, a husband and wife named Brandon J. Blackmore and Emily Gail Crossfield Blackmore transported that child - she was age 13 - down to a wedding ceremony on the Utah/ Arizona line. This was on March 1, 2004 where the marriage was supposed to take place and she married Warren Jeffs the president of the FLDS. Warren was in his late 40's at the time. And the charge says that the Blackmore's were present for the ceremony and knew what was going to take place.

CO: And Warren Jeffs as you pointed out had dozens of wives at that point is that right?

NC: I don't know what the number was at that point but he wound up with 81 wives according to records that Texas authorities found.

CO: And can you tell us about the other child the other girl?

NC: Yes. There it's alleged that James Oler or Jim Oler as he's often known, transported her down to Nevada where she was married at I think age 15 is what the records show and that she married another man in the FLDS at a ceremony in June of 2004.

CO: So these were both Canadian girls brought by these adults to the United States to be married at a very young age. Why did they take them to the U.S. Do you know?

NC: Well there's always been a lot of intermarriage between the U.S. and Canadian branches of the FLDS. And so Warren's orders to these defendants were to bring these children down to the United States for these wedding ceremonies.

CO: Were these marriages legal in the United States?

NC: No. They were spiritual marriages so there was no like wedding certificates or marriage certificates filed with local authorities. Even still, they would have been illegal in the United States because of the age differences between the bride and groom.

CO: Now this is a very important very difficult trial for Canadian authorities. Do you have any sense of what kind of evidence the Crown has?

NC: Well, a lot of the evidence is going to be American records. The U.S. authorities have seized a lot of records from FLDS enclaves in Texas. There was also the arrest of Warren Jeffs in Nevada in 2006 where authorities found a lot of records in his Cadillac Escalade. And those are the records that built cases against men in the United States and those were given to Canadian authorities and the RCMP used those to build a case against the Blackmore's and Jim Oler.

CO: Do you know if the Canadian authorities have any evidence that this went beyond spiritual unions?

NC: Yes, there is evidence of sexual relations at least between Warren Jeffs and the 13-year-old girl. And in fact, a half-brother is expected to testify at trial to authenticate a voice on an audio recording where allegedly Warren Jeffs is having sex with his 13-year-old bride.

CO: What about the young women themselves? Because they're not children anymore or are they expected to testify?

NC: No, I only know where the 13-year-old bride is now and her brother says she's back living in the FLDS community and near Leicester, British Columbia. I've no idea where the the other child bride is. But all indications are they remain loyal to the FLDS and will not cooperate or testify at the trial.

CO: Do we have any idea from family members or whatever how those young women are doing?

NC: not really, again with the girl her brother says he recently saw her living in Bountiful, British Columbia as it's known, but he didn't speak with her. She appears to be living with one of the defendants Emily Gail Crossfield. And just you know living the FLDS life whatever that includes now.

CO: The situation in Bountiful, British Columbia has been a difficult one for reporters in Canada to cover. I know you went to Bountiful in the spring to speak with people in the community. What were you able to find out?

NC: Well, I we met people who are no longer in the FLDS. A lot of former FLDS followers continue to live in Bountiful, British Columbia because that's their home. And a lot of the people were not keen on this trial even though they dislike child bride marriages they dislike like sex trafficking. They see this as something that happened years ago. We were talking about weddings that were 12 years ago and they'd rather the government put their efforts toward preventing future instances then dwell on the past so to speak. They also say this is just a way for the government to target polygamists. They think they're just trying to get after especially Winston Blackmore, who's charged with polygamy and is supposed to go on trial in April.

CO: And do you think that this is a springboard or is this is laying the foundation for that trial against Winston Blackmore.

NC: In some respects. I mean the the crown will probably use some of the same Texas and Nevada records against Winston Blackmore to prove that he is indeed a polygamist in violation of the law. Of course that's the only allegations against Winston Blackmore. He's not charged with anything having to do with child trafficking or underage marriages. He's charged strictly with polygamy. So the case will be different in April. But I do think this is a test to see perhaps how jurors in the courts what their attitudes are toward polygamists. If they acquit these three defendants on grounds that hey they're just living a different religion than I happen to live. That doesn't bode well for the case against Winston Blackmore in April.

CAROL OFF: All right Nate, We'll leave it there. Thank you.

NATE CARLISE: Thank you.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Nate Carlisle is the polygamy reporter for The Salt Lake Tribune. We reached him in Salt Lake City, Utah.

[Music: Soul]

Sharon Jones dies

JEFF DOUGLAS: Sharon Jones with 100 days, 100 nights. As you've likely heard, Ms. Jones died Friday. And later on in the program we are going to pay tribute to the modern soul legend. Carol will speak with Neal Sugarman co-founder of Daptone Records and one of Sharon Jones's Dap-Kings. Here's a clip from our interview.


NEAL SUGARMAN: She was able to bring the band to a place that great music does. which is, it transcends the music and the players that are playing it. She was able to get the band to the place where we were grooving so hard that the music would take on a new feeling. And when that was happening there's a real emotional experience for the people playing music. So being on the bandstand with her. And just revving the music up to such a place where often would bring a tear to my eye.

JD: Dap-King Neal Sugarman, remembering Sharon Jones and her music. That is coming up later on the Monday edition. As It Happens.

[Music: Soul]

First audio book

Guest: Matthew Rubery

JEFF DOUGLAS: It is believed to be the first full length audio book ever recorded. And it was recently discovered right here in Canada. It is a reading of Joseph Conrad's novella The typhoon. And here's a clip of the beginning of the recording typhoon.


Typhoon by Joseph Conrad written in 1903 recorded for the Talking Books Library for the Blind. by kind permission of the trustees of the estate of the late Joseph Conrad. Chapter one. Captain McWirr of the steamer Nan-Shan, had a physiognomy that in the order of material appearances was the exact counterpart of his mind. It presented no marked characteristics of firmness or stupidity. It had no pronounced characteristics whatever. It was simply ordinary, irrisponsive and unruffled.

JD: if you would like to hear a longer version of that reading. It's on our website www.cbc.ca/aih. Matthew Rubery has been researching this recording. He is a professor of modern literature at Queen Mary University of London. And we reached him in London, England.

CAROL OFF: Professor Rubery, I understand you have been looking for this Joseph Conrad recording for quite a long time. How did you finally find it?

MATTHEW RUBERY: I've been looking for a couple of years. I mean these records were made on shellac, which is very brittle, fragile material. And most of the records that come across and destroyed, broken pieces or lost altogether. I've been corresponding for about a year now with a vintage record collection in Mike the seka. And we would talk about some other disc we sort of shared an interest to dissipate at unusual rates and it only came to our attention a few weeks ago that he had one of the first recordings made for blind people. I've been corresponding for about a year now with a vintage record collector named Mike Dicecco, and we would talk about some other discs — we just shared an interest in discs that played at unusual rates — and it only came to our attention a few weeks ago that he had one of these first recordings made for blind people.

CO: How did he end up with the recording?

MR: I can only speculate on this, but my guess is that the first talking books in Britain were made for soldiers who were blinded during the war and they didn't have any other way to read. They couldn't read brail so the talking book program was started so they'd have a form of entertainment. A lot of these soldiers did go back to Commonwealth countries, including Canada, and I'm guessing that this soldier just took back this set of records, maybe one of the gramaphones or phonograph players to play them on and that it ended up in the collector's hands at some point.

CO: Why do you suspect that this is the first talking book — Joseph Conrad's 'Typhoon'?

MR: Well, I know the first three books that were recorded. So, the first recording was either Joseph Conrad's 'Typhoon', or Agatha Christie's 'The Murder of Roger Ackroyd'. I've never been able to figure out exactly which one was recorded first, but I do know -- just from quotations in interviews that I've read -- that the very first reader of the first talking book was a man named Anthony MacDonald, and he is the reader of the Joseph Conrad records, so that makes me suspect that this is the first recording.

CO: How would they choose this particular novel to record for soldiers who had been blinded?

MR: It is a bit of a mystery to me why they would choose this one. Conrad did have other stories with storytellers. I mean, Marlow is another famous storyteller, but they didn't choose that one. Conrad also wrote other stories with blind characters, but they didn't chose that one. They chose this one which is just a classic sea yarn. I'm thinking it's just a good ol' seafaring adventure tale that was a form of escapism, and a lot of readers at the time just wanted to be entertained and to hear a really good story, and Conrad's reputation at the time was as a popular storyteller.

CO: And I guess if you're trying to entertain and uplift is not going to give them Heart of Darkness.

MR: No, that is part of the debate about what to record for people? Should you record sort of worthy classic literature that's going to challenge them and make them think or should you record just the best sellers of the day. The first committee to choose of classic tales 20th century tales that they thought would endure for the next hundred years. But a lot of protest from blind readers sort of went against that said we want just the same thing as everyone else is reading. We want to Gone With The Wind.

CO: And they were trying to and there were a lot of titles that were apparently rejected because the committee decided them that they weren't suitable they had sex in them or profanities or obscene obscenities and they were quite judgemental I guess was it?

MR: Yeah I think the committee had a tough job because they couldn't make the recordings they didn't have a very large budget. So they want to sort of make recordings choose titles that would appeal to everyone but they also didn't want to censor titles. One solution they had was to take sensitive books books that profanity or blasting their sex on them and record them in Braille instead of audio. And the thinking there was that hearing a booklet allowed was more intimate and therefore potentially more offensive. If you say heard a swear word read aloud.

CO: You mentioned there were three the first three were. There was the murder of Roger Ackroyd the Agatha Christie and the typhoon. What was the third?

MR: The Gospel According to St. John. I mean the Bible was always a popular choice. It's the book of Talking Books. It's still the most popular recording today. It was just an easy choice because it appealed to so many people. People were used to hearing the Bible read aloud it was even good for fundraising.

CO: Did think that they could have imagined that the situation today where there are just thousands if not tens of thousands of audio books and millions of listeners that would actually be something that in this age of high technology that people just want to hear the human voice read them the story?

MR: Yeah. There was there was some discussion of the time whether these books would have a broader market or not because it's a commercial market could sort of come into existence then that would allow. So the Talking Books for Blind People to sort of raise standards and to try to raise money from these recordings. But of course the talking books were going to have been completely separate. Still today often books are recorded for blind people and the books are recorded again by commercial companies. There is some crossover but they're still very separate for the most part.

CO: Any particular recording that you're still looking for?

MR: Yeah well, I'm hoping that some of these records will turn up eventually. I mean I looked all over Britain over the United States with some of these recordings I hadn't seen much in Canada. That's one reason. This lucky lucky find has caught me off guard. We have I think the fifth record ever made which is a Williams Makepeace Thackery novel called The History of Henry Esmond. But we don't have the four before that. So the Agatha Christie records are still missing. The Gospel According to St. John is still missing. And then one or two others. So if anyone has an old record for blind people up in their attic please let me know.

CAROL OFF: All right. The word is Professor Rubery is good to talk to you thank you.

MATTHEW RUBERY: Thank you very much. Bye.

CAROL OFF: Bye bye.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Matthew Rubery is a professor of modern literature at Queen Mary University of London. And we reached him in London. If you'd like to hear that interview again or share it. Visit our website www.cbc.ca/aih

CAROL OFF: All right we have to take a short break now, but As It Happens will be back in a moment with much more.

JEFF DOUGLAS: They first met 26 years ago when he was 13 and he shot her. Now Ian manual has been freed from prison early in part because Debbie Baigrie, The woman who was shot spoke up on his behalf. We are going to speak with both Ian and Debbie in a few minutes.

CO: They say you should never settle but they're not usually talking about multiple lawsuits or the President-elect of United States. So Donald Trump did settle the Trump University suits not so cool Twenty five million.

JD: And we will bid odd year to Nicolas Sarkozy, whose failure to win back the French presidency or even his party's nomination proves that he has lost his savoir faire. Stay tuned. I'm Jeff Douglas.

CO: And I'm Carol Off

CAROL OFF: Hello again and welcome back, I'm Carol off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: And I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens the Monday edition part two.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Coming up.

CO: More than 600 deaths in just 10 months. The number of drug casualties in British Columbia is staggeringly high. Tonight, I'll speak with an activist on Vancouver's Downtown Eastside who has set up a pop up medical tent to help users.

JD: And Sharon Jones squeezed more into a 20-year career than most singers do over decades. The man who signed the late Ms. Jones to her first record deal remembers a woman who made an indelible mark on stage and on record after leaving a job as a prison guard. Stay tuned.

[Music: Theme]


Part 2: Florida reunion

Florida reunion

Guests: Debbie Baigire, Ian Manuel

JEFF DOUGLAS: When Ian Manuel was 13-years-old he shot a woman in the face. That woman Debbie Baigrie was unknown to him. She was badly injured but she survived the shooting in Tampa 26 years ago. Mr. Manuel was arrested. He was tried as an adult and given consecutive life sentences in prison. But earlier this month Mr. Manuel was freed and his early release was thanks to an unlikely advocate Ms. Baigrie, the woman he shot. His release also marks the first time the two have met in person since that July night in 1990. We reached Mr. Manuel in Montgomery, Alabama and Ms. Baigrie in Tampa.

CAROL OFF: Debbie, first of all can you take us back to what you remember about your first encounter with Ian?

DEBBIE BAIGRIE: I was out with a couple of my girlfriends for happy hour. It was the first time I'd been out since my youngest daughter was born. One of my friends from the gym walked me back to my car. He said, "you know this is a dangerous neighbourhood you shouldn't be walking to your car by yourself." So he walked me in my car we were just talking and one guy came up and said asked me for if I had any change. I had just moved down here a few years ago. So being you know being raised in Montreal, there was really no - very low crime rate - and that was the last thing on my mind when they asked me for change was that I was going to be mugged. But, I mean it all happened really fast and said "I'm serious. Give it up." I spun around to see who is saying that. And like the gun went off. I don't know if it was just like a gut reaction on his part, but whatever the reason was it happened.

CO: How badly were you hurt?

DB: Nothing life threatening. The bullet went in my mouth and out my cheek. It took out my bottom left teeth and gums and a few of the top teeth on the left side. But you know nothing life threatening. I didn't feel it because I guess your body goes into shock. But I did see one of my crowns that I had just gotten fell to the ground. And I'm thinking oh no. So my reaction was just to run back to where we were.

CO: You had many years I mean even though you weren't it was not life threatening you had many years of good surgery a reconstruction of pain to recover from that shooting. Is that right?

DB: Yeah, that was actually the only time I'd gotten mad at Ian, like the most painful part was when they had to take a chunk of my pallet and put it where my gums were in order to be able to put implants and to put teeth there because I was so young that they didn't want to put like a partial or something back there. So you know when you're working with reconstruction of your you know gums and teeth it's a long process.

CO: And you mentioned Ian, the only time you were angry with him. Ian you're on the line there hello?

IAN MANUEL: Yes, Hello how you doing?

CO: Ian, just fine thank you. Can you tell us why you shot Debbie?

IM: It's the same thing. She asked me as a 14-year-old when I first called her and asked a question that no 14-year-old should up have to answer. Now that I'm 39, I can tell you the same thing I told her it was a mistake. It just - everything happened so fast - it was a combination of the influence of the people that I was with, the four older boys. And a combination of me doing some stupid as a teenager.

CO: You were tried as an adult though weren't you?

IM: Yes ma'am.

CO: What were you sentenced for?

IM: I was sentenced for a robbery and attempted murder and I was sentenced to die in prison, natural life followed by life probation.

CO: And you were just 13-years-old at the time when you when this happened?

IM: Yes ma'am.

CO: What was it like for you in prison?

IM: Long story short, I t was some of the worst conditions that a human being could live under. I spent about 20 years in solitary confinement. They used to torture me. I was beaten by guards. I was gassed with high powered military style things. I was injected with psychotropic makes that I didn't need. And I can just go on and on and on and just talk to you about you know the conditions of prison. But I'm pretty sure that will come out in a memoir. Just loosing every single one of my immediate family members and just carrying so much hurt and pain around it not only what I had done, but what had also been done to me. Growing up in prison.

CO: You were 14 when you placed a call to Debbie?

IM: Yes ma'am.

CO: Why did you need to do that? What compelled you to call Debbie from prison?

IM: Well, I was hurting and confused at the same time. I mean my mom didn't raise me to kill anybody to try to shoot nobody. That's not the person I was. And that's not the person I am even now today. So I just felt like I needed to clear my conscience so I rolled the dice, I rolled the dice and made a collect call. And we had we had actually live human operators instead of manual ones. I distinctly remember to operate asking Debbie would she accept a call from an Ian and she asked the operator what is his last name? ask him his last name. I told her Manuel and she said yes, yes I'll accept. I just blurted out apology and told her to have a Merry Christmas and stuff and she was like, "Ian, why did you shoot me?" And I had to tell her that it was a mistake. So is one of the most difficult things I've ever done you know. But it was what was in my heart and I'm glad I did it.

CO: Debbie from your point of view because that this didn't just end with that one call, you continue to communicate with Ian. What did that mean for you to get that call?

DB: That that call is was scary to me because it was only a year after this had happened and I still had the victim mentality. But it meant a lot. That he reached out to apologize. So it shook me up a little bit, but I was happy that he did it and he has a lot of people never say they're sorry.

CO: And that was 25 years ago. And do you then advocated for Ian's release from prison. The young man who shot you in the face?

DB: I originally before he was sentenced I was working with this victim's advocate group and I had requested on numerous occasions that because he was so young that I think he should be rehabilitated. You know he's so young and from all my psychology classes I knew that 13-year-old brain isn't developed yet and they don't have very no impulse control and they had the choice at that point to say, "Ok let's turn this kid around." And then in the sentencing hearing the prosecutor said "just think you know' he had 17 prior convictions and he is a budding sociopath." You know that surprised me. You know they were saying you know as prosecutors do this guy is a habitual criminal. And that's why we're putting him in jail. So that really shocked me. But when they did hand down his sentence I was even more in shock. And I remember and I know you remember that Ian, when the judge said, "we're going to make an example of you Mr. Manuel.

IM: Yes yes.

DB: And and then he handed down that sentence and I couldn't believe it. I thought there's no way, this this can even be legal for what they're doing. And I think from that minute on I lost that victim mentality. I actually was on his side. You know I felt like he was really wronged in this.

CO: Not just not just that you found that this was wrong to do to a 13-year-old boy who is the Ian over the past 25 years? Who is the man you have come to know? Who is that person?

DB: OK. You're going to get your ego puffed up a little bit here.

IM: [Sound: Laughs] go ahead.

DB: Ian is intelligent, kind, thoughtful. Am I embarrassing you?

IM: Slightly slightly.

DB: He cares. He's humble. You would expect somebody who has lived in these conditions for so many years to come out as a bitter, hardened person because he was never told that he was a good person. He was only told he was a bad person and he was tortured. Now that that has an effect on somebody you know over the years. You know I've never wavered from ok - yes I have - We both have. There were times when people told him stop talking to her. She's using you like for what? What was I using him for? And then people would say to me you're delusional and you're not seeing him through true eyes for who he is.

CO: Ian, what did Debby's friendship mean for you?

IM: If it meant to me that there was hope. Not only for me getting out of prison, but for humanity. If Debbie could forgive me for what I had done to her then the little squabbles that family members go through, that friends go through, that so-called enemies have between each other then they can let their little squabbles go to and that we could all heal. You know we live in a racially divided country right now. And I just hope my story and Debbie's story combined. Our testimony so to speak, can help people get over their grudges and the petty things man, show that life is beautiful that miracles do happen that there's hope for this human side of us that people think is going just haywire you know? The biggest bang out of all this out of everything I went through my miraculous release last week the one thing I'll always cherish besides Debbie's forgiveness was my ability to not only hug her for two or three minutes after my release ,but be able to kiss her on the exact same spot where I shot her. That was big for me.

CO: I understand you kissed her in two places you kissed her in the place with the bullet entered and the place where the bullet exited?

IM: Right. It felt good. It felt good to do. And I'm glad that she allowed me to do that you know? Because you know how most victims are, they want to be as far away from assailant as possible. But to be able to do that it felt like we came full circle in our friendship and that's just God man. If people don't believe in God. They need to look at me and Debbie man, it shows that he's real.

CO: And Debbie what did those two kisses mean for you?

DB: I just I was very I mean I reached out to hug him, because I felt like I mean I still feel like a very strong friendship like my long lost son or you know whatever? But when you went to kiss me on the jaw right there I didn't think of that. This is the first time it makes sense now. Now I didn't even think of that. I just thought it was you know it was just a sign of affection. So I'm glad you clarified that because I didn't like think of the significance of it. I was just so happy to you know like people thought that you know over the years you know I'd visited you in prison. This was the first time in 22 years that we were face to face.

IM: The prison wouldn't allow it. all those rejected visitation forms that you submitted. The prison wouldn't allow it. So yeah that was the first time we met. Besides the original time but this one here was way way better.

DB: Just a little bit eh? [Sound: Laughs] It was such a great night.

CO: I just love listening to the two of you talk. Can I just say finally to both of you. Ian and Debbie you are both inspirations. Thank you.

IAN MANUEL: You're welcome.

CO: Thank you Debbie.

DEBBIE BAIGRIE: You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you for giving us the forum.

CO: It's just an extraordinary story and we much appreciate it. Thank you both.

DEBBIE BAIGRIE: I'll talk to you soon Ian.

CAROL OFF: Bye bye.

IAN MANUEL: Alright Debbie, bye bye.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Ian Manuel was granted early release from prison earlier this month thanks to help from the woman he shot 26 years ago. Debbie Baigrie we reached Mr. Manuel in Montgomery, Alabama and Ms Baigrie in Tampa, Florida.

[Music: Easy listening]

Trump University settlement

JEF DOUGLAS: Donald Trump wasn't super keen to show up in court in the midst of his transition to the presidency. And so, in spite of repeatedly insisting that he would never do such a thing, he has settled three lawsuits against Trump University. Trump University, of course, was a real estate seminar series. It promised to share tips and get rich quick advice from instructors handpicked by Mr. Trump himself. Apparently it did none of the above. A New York attorney general Eric Schneiderman accused the program of quote, "swindling thousands of innocent Americans out of millions of dollars." He called it a quote, "fraud from beginning to end." Hence the lawsuits. Now previously Mr. Trump complained that he would not get a fair trial since the presiding judge in California was of Mexican heritage and therefore biased against him. Back in June we spoke to Bob Guillo. Mr. Guillo had attended Trump University and he was part of two of the lawsuits against it. Here's part of that conversation from our archives.


BOB GUILLO: Well, there wasn't an actual university. All of these events were held in ballrooms of various hotels. So there was no actual building that said Trump University. You walked into the hotel and you saw all these signs saying this way to success. And they even took a picture of all of the people that were subject to enrolling in Trump University with a cardboard cut-out of Donald Trump.

CAROL OFF: And this is all, of course, before you learn that Donald Trump was going to be the Republican presidential candidate. So how do you feel about it now? When you see him take over that?

BG: I feel that Donald Trump made promises that were not true AT Trump University by stating that he interviewed every one of the instructors. Subsequently it came out that he never interviewed one of them. And I feel that since he lied to all of us about Trump University, I doubt very much that he can keep his promises. Should he become the president of the United States.

CO: We've seen Mr. Trump fight these lawsuits so he has accused one of the judges saying that he because he's of Mexican descent he is biased. We saw him after the New York attorney general in the suit you're involved in by claiming that this was just a political hack What does that tell you about how Mr. Trump is going to fight these cases.

BG: He's not going to fight. He's going to use his attorney like he does. I mean I could never hire an attorney to fight Donald Trump. That's why I had to rely on the people's attorney, the attorney general of New York and he's going to be supposedly on the witness list and it could very well be the president of the United States when he goes to trial in California on November 28.

JEFF DOUGLAS: From our archives that was Bob Guillo in June of this year. Mr. Guillo was part of two of the three lawsuits against Donald Trump and Trump University alleging fraud. On Friday President-elect Trump settled all three of those lawsuits to the tune of 25 million bucks.

[Music: Ambient]

Au revoir Sarkozy

JEFF DOUGLAS: in one expert's opinion, Nicolas Sarkozy was a wonderful leader, who would return to power on the basis of his ingenious policies his strong anti-burkini rhetoric and his astonishing charisma. That expert was Nicolas Sarkozy himself. And unfortunately for him, he was wrong. Mr. Sarkozy was of course the president of France once already and ever since he lost his bid for a second term to Francois Hollande, he has been plotting his return. And as I say, he firmly believed he was a sure thing. As former president Jacques Chirac once said of Mrs. Sarkozy quote, "He has no doubts about anything least of all about himself." To Nicolas Sarkozy, Nicolas Sarkozy seemed like the perfect man to deliver a rousing message about French values he's pro and immigration. He's con. How could anyone resist his brave call for a nationwide ban on the burkini? His courageous insistence that a Muslim and Jewish students be served roast pork in their school dinners. No substitutions. His call for quote, "determined combat against multiculturalism." Who honestly could resist him? Well as it turns out most voters could. Yesterday his Republican Party held its first round of voting to choose a presidential candidate for next year's general election. And despite his artfully orchestrated comeback Nicolas Sarkozy came in a distant third which means he's out. Now according to one expert he was simply misunderstood or just too awesome. But according to everyone who is not Mr. Sarkozy, his personality is terrible and people do not like him. We will continue to follow the French election but we will say au revoir to a man Nicolas Sarkozy has described as a true hero: Nicolas Sarkozy. Here are Stars The Comeback.

[Music: Indie electronic]

JD: Stars with The Comeback. And you are listening to As It Happens on CBC Radio 1 Sirius XM and Public Radio International. That's our broadcast information, but you can download our podcast at www.cbc.ca/aih. Click on the podcast link or get it from iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch out for an extra on Fridays.

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Part 3: Safe injection sites, winning helmet design, Sharon Jones obit

Safe injection sites

CAROL OFF: Ms. Blyth, what are you seeing at this safe injection site that you've set up today?

SARAH BLYTH: Well, we've had four overdoses already this morning and we've only been here for an hour. So it's just been nonstop. We saved all of their lives. You know you can hear the ambulances and the firemen going by. It's just complete mayhem.

CO: This is the second of these sites you've opened up these pop up medical tents for people who are facing a possible overdose or needing assistance. So, how much activity are you seeing at those sites?

SB: You know when we first opened the first site in early September we were seeing maybe one overdose a day. And now we're seeing overdoses several times a day up to ten times a day. It's just obviously there's something going on here for Welfare Day. We're going to set up probably ten tents that go overnight around the neighbourhood to make sure that we can help save you know more lives.

CO: What do you mean by Welfare Day? Welfare Day refers to?

SB: The day that everybody gets their welfare check is tomorrow and Wednesday, normally on welfare day because people get money there's an increase in overdoses.

CO: Can you describe the actual facilities the pop up facility medical tents that you've set up? What do they look like and what are they offering in the way of services?

SB: We have first aid supplies we have harm reduction supplies. We have you know we have volunteers that are trained. We have a place to sit supply we can witness people while they're using to make sure that if they're using something that we're there for them if they use something that's potent. We have a phone to phone the ambulance, 911. You know we pretty much do all of that. And and you know you know we also deal with other medical emergencies so it's sort of like a medic pop up tent.

CO: What kind of drug overdoses are you seeing? What are the drugs that mostly are coming through your tent?

SB: To be honest I don't even know. I know it's not heroin because usually with a heroin overdose it takes one Narcan to wake a person back up from an overdose. But now we're doing two and three and four and five shots of Narcan. So that means that something more powerful. I'm not really you know we don't know we're not testing that. We're just doing the front line work.

CO: So we know that the B.C Coroners Service last week said 622 deaths from drug overdoses in British Columbia between January and October. And so what what do you think is causing that? People are pointing to Fentanyl, what do you what do you think is actually behind those number?

SB: Well I think the Fentanyl is behind those numbers. But I also think that the actual deaths could be prevented a lot of them just by you know the government taking hold of the situation. And you know making sure that there's enough people out on the ground in these alleyways saving lives. I mean I think that we have to remember that you know if it was in any other neighborhood that something would have been done immediately. And I think because it's in the Downtown Eastside it's so stigmatised that people don't think that you know these folks should be cared for. But you know the real the reality is a lot of people have mental health issues and other issues that they're dealing with that are not addressed by the government and they don't get the proper help and this is the way that we treat folks in society that are you know living in poverty and have other issues. And it's just hard to believe that you know people are meeting about this issue in Ottawa they're meeting all over the place and nothing's getting done.

CO: Can you just then put a human face on this tragedy? What you saw today in the tent, tell us about some of the people who coming to your pop up clinic?

SB: There's a lot of young people, there's you know all different walks of life just people that are living in different types of situations. There's no real common denominator, except for that it's just folk that you know live in this world that may be having a tough time. And you know we're here to help them. And we'll be there every day until we're not needed anymore.

CO: The services you're offering are do you have you sanctioned by the government? Do you have to get a permit or anything from the government in order to do this?

SB: We could, I guess, but we haven't because we have not had time. I mean it's just gone. You know we decided to put up one tent and then we were getting overdoses and we were dealing with the issue because we were you know people were dying in the alley behind us so we just set up a tent and it was just supposed to be sort of a medic tent. And then it turned into you know a tent where we witness people and it sort of grew from there and then from there on it's just a spike in Fentanyl overdoses and we've just been so busy it's just in with all the bureaucratic red tape that we would have to go through I don't know how long that would take.

CAROL OFF: But any chance that you will be challenged by the authorities if you are having if you're providing safe injection site services and medical services? Are you concerned at all that someone might show up and say we're shutting you down?

SB: You know I'd be happy to have that argument because we're sitting here you know we're saving lives every day our volunteers are saving lives and we're working with all the other front line workers. And so I'd like to have you know if they want to come down and talk to me about what we're doing and try to stop us you know it's just not going to happen.

CO: Are you challenging them as well? I mean is that not only a service that you're offering but a political statement about the state of affairs down in Vancouver?

SB: Well, I mean I think we were sort of offering a service to help people so that they could stay alive. But now that it's the reality of what we're dealing with is political at this point because you have to wonder why so little is being done? And why people are you know it's maddening to think that people are flying around across Canada having meetings and yet on the front line people are still dying every day. And how that could be possible? When there's a ton of solutions it is a if it's an emergency it's a bloody emergency and just do something about it.

CAROL OFF: We will continue to follow this story. Ms. Blyth, I can hear in your voice the strength and the frustration and the courage and I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

SB: Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having us and thanks for helping us get the awareness out there.

CAROL OFF: You bet. Bye Bye.


JEFF DOUGLAS: Sarah Blyth is running to pop up medical tents for people concerned about overdosing or at risk of overdosing. We reached Ms. Blyth in Vancouver.

[Music: Suspense]

Winning helmet design

Guest: Isis Shiffer

JEFF DOUGLAS: Paper can be folded: it can be folded in half for example or into quarters. That's about it. As least as that's what I used to think, before I learned about the woman who folded paper into a bike helmet. And not something that looked like a bike helmet, but an actual bike helmet. That woman's name is Isis Shiffer. She is a 28-year-old industrial designer in New York and she has just won the James Dyson award for her folding helmet. We reached Isis Shiffer in Brooklyn.

CAROL OFF: Isis, congratulations.

ISIS SHIFFER: Thank you. Thank you very much.

CO: For those who haven't seen it can you describe your bike helmet?

IS: Sure. It is a honeycomb paper folding recyclable helmet for bike share. It folds down really really small. It's about like a large banana and unfolds into a full size bike helmet.

CO: And it's made of paper?

IS: It is made of coated paper, so it will be waterproof. And in that particular honeycomb configuration it is incredibly good at absorbing impact. So it will work. It will pass the same crest certification as any regular polystyrene helmet.

CO: Well you can forgive people who are who are bike riders listening to this who might wonder how it's possible that a honeycombed helmet made of paper could protect them after they just been doored and they're being thrown to the air to land on their heads?

IS: [Sound: Laughs] I hope that doesn't happen to any listening cyclists. So the way it works is each little honeycomb cell will crumble up under impact and spread the impact all the way around the head rather than a concentrated blow. And that is that's more or less regular helmets are too. And that's what prevents concussions obviously after one crash that we completely destroyed. And you probably won't want to ride home anyway.

CO: Have you had a chance to test it as they test other bike helmets?

IS: Absolutely, I mean I wouldn't I wouldn't have put this much energy into designing if I had known material with sound. So I actually had the opportunity to crash test it when I was studying at Imperial College in London. They haven't happen to have a crash apparatus which looks like a big guillotine, you drop a weight on whatever material you're testing and there's a bunch of sensors and an accelerator to tell you it’s holding up. And it did super super well!

CAROL OFF: I mean as well as any other bike helmet?

IS: That's right actually better than the bottom of the line ones. I probably shouldn't say this, but the regulations are just not that stringent which is not really great. But I don't see too many issues with it passing I guess the regulations for sale in the U.S.

CO: OK, so who might want to purchase a accordion fold up bike helmet made of paper?

IS: Well, the the we use case is for bike share. So if you are renting a bike for a day or a comute or something and you don't have to have a helmet with you and you don't want to go and buy one at a shop for 30 bucks minimum you can just get a super inexpensive one for use as long as you need it. And recycle it at the end of the ride. I've also got an interest in using it for earthquake scenarios which hadn't really occurred to me, but I can see why that might be a good thing to have because you can get a lot of them packed down a really small space. I'm not from an earthquake-prone city so it never even occurred to me that's just another application that people have brought forward.

CO: OK. So how did you come up with the idea?

IS: Well, I started by looking into materials that could be recycled and also of absorb impact because it is going to be a limited use product, obviously I don't want these things ending up in landfills. Polystyrene which is what regular helmets are made out of is a really non-biodegradable material. It lasts like 10000 years I think by some rubrics. So that was sort of where I started just trying to find the material that a absorbed an impact was recyclable and could be manipulated into a helmet shape. And it kind of went from there.

CO: So you did you. How did you come across using paper?

IS: I think it's. I read an article about dropping supplies out of a helicopter into refugee situations and they were using paper honeycomb to pad the like pallet-sized blocks of supplies essentially and they're using honeycomb paper to pad the bottom part so everything didn't smash up. I was like wow. That's a much stronger impact than someone falling off their bike. That stuff has to be pretty cool. And that led me to start collecting samples making samples and doing tests.

CO: Now this you say it's waterproof but for how long is it? Because if it's honeycombed I'm sure the water gets trapped in there after you're on the bike for a number of hours so what happens?

IS: Well, it's not really waterproof in keeping water up your head. Most helmets are full of holes. It's more that the material itself has to be able to survive a rainstorm. So your head's going to get wet anyway.

CO: So how often could you use it? or how long could you last in the rain before you're going to have a problem?

IS: It should be. I think in order to get certified for sale its' six or eight hours. I don't remember it being submerged it has to be as close to waterproof as possible. It needs to be quite sturdy for that.

CO: But you're not designing this to be used over a long period of time or you?

IS: No, but it can't degrade over the course of its life and have somebody potentially crash and have the helmet fail. So it's more like basically what's going to kill these things is abrasion not necessarily water. Paper is really good under impact and it's not under any strain when it's in use. But if it's sitting at the bottom of your bag for a week it's going to get berated and scuffed and that's going to weaken it. So there's going to be an indicator built in. That tells you when it's life is over and you need to recycle it. It's going to be like a colour change strip.

CO: Right. So you'll know that when your life is out of her?

IS: The life is over. It's void as a safety product. Time to throw it in the recycling bin and get another one.

CO: And how much would you sell this helmet for?

IS: The target is $5 a unit and it's very important to me that it is available to anyone who needs a helmet. So if it comes to we can't keep it under that price I want to make up the difference with sponsorships or something like that.

CO: And so now you have won this prize this James Dyson prize. It's Canadian dollars fifty five thousand dollars so what are you going to do with that money?

IS: That is incredibly welcome seed money for my company. I just started a consultancy in Brooklyn called Spitfire Industries and this is going to allow me to go from being one person on a laptop to an actual beginning design firm which is incredibly exciting.

CO: Well congratulations.

IS: Thank you. Thank you. It's an amazing honor.

CO: And I'll just ask you one more question because we've had stories about this before but your name is Isis. Does that give you any trouble?

IS: I am not changing it. I thought about it, but that's my name and I've been here longer and I'm a hell of a lot better looking than they are. So it's staying.

CAROL OFF: All right, good to talk to you Isis. Thanks.

ISIS SHIFFER: Likewise. Thank you very much.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Isis Shiffer is an industrial designer who has just won the James Dyson award for her folding paper bicycle helmet. We reached Ms. Shiffer in Brooklyn.

[Music: Percussive]

Pierre Moreau back to work

JEFF DOUGLAS: Pierre Moreau is looking forward to getting back to business as usual. shortly after being named Quebec's education minister last January. Mr. Moreau left the National Assemblie's Red Room in an ambulance. Doctors feared cancer but refrained from issuing a diagnosis. About a month later Quebec premier Philippe Couillard implemented an emergency cabinet shuffle and then finally, earlier this week Mr. Moreau got some welcome news. And here is some of what he shared with Radio-Canada's Sebastien Bovet.


PIERRE MOREAU: Luckily I learned earlier this week that it was not cancer, but after many many many tests it was rather an infection that went to my nervous system and blood system and so on. And that's the reason why I became so weak that I had to leave. at the beginning I thought it was bad cold. It happened to be much more serious than that and I realise now how deep I went and how lucky I am to be surrounded by people that love me and give me the strength to go to those very difficult times and the quality of the the treatment I had and the people of the medical team that was there. when I left I was about a hundred and eighty and it was quite muscular because I used to train many times a week. But at the end it was bone and flesh. And then from there with the treatment and with good foods and good care I came back. Now we we are totally certain that there is no cancer and that the infection is under control. And now that I am ready to come back to public life just probably with the same energy that I had prior to leave politics. you have time to think about these things and then what is it To enjoy life? Enjoy life is doing thing that you were passionate to do and politics is something that is to me that is a passion during that process. You think about what you want to do and. That's how I convince me that what I was doing is exactly what I want to do. Well with all the energy that I can I will go back to my to my former life.

JEFF DOUGLAS: I was Quebec MNA Pierre Moreau speaking with the Radio-Canada's Sebastien Bovet. Moreau hopes to return to the National Assembly this January after what will be by then, a year long absence due to illness.

[Music: Jazz]

Sharon Jones obit

Guest: Neal Sugarman

JEFF DOUGLAS: Sharon Jones electrified any venue she performed in the R&B singer would bounce across the stage in heels and sequin dresses. She sang with a soulful roar that made it sound like she had been doing it all her life. But Ms. Jones was what the music industry might call a late bloomer. She released her first record at 40, after a career as a corrections officer at Rikers Island and she never looked back. Sharon Jones died on Friday. She was 60-years-old. She died after a battle with pancreatic cancer. Neal Sugarman is the co-founder of Daptone Records, the label that first signed Sharon Jones. He's also a member of the retro soul outfit the Dap-Kings, her long-time backing band. We reached Mr. Sugarman in New York City.

CAROL OFF: Neal, first of all, I'm sorry for the loss of your band mate and friend Sharon Jones.

NEAL SUGARMAN: Thank you very much. We're all a bit gutted and just getting over the shock. But you know one of the one of the great things is just to see how far Sharon's voice reached through so many people just sending so much love to us.

CO: She had cancer for some time now, but she recently had a stroke. I understand on election night in the U.S. what happened?

NS: The week before this particular stroke she was having some more complications due to cancer. It had really started to take more control of her body unfortunately. But during the election night she was her friend Megan Holken's house in Sharon Springs, New York where she had been basically spending much of her time. And she was watching the election became filled with anxiety and must have raised her blood pressure and she said that she just started feeling that she couldn't control her left side of her body anymore and she was rushed to the hospital and the following day, Wednesday morning. Gabriel Roth my partner at the label and bass player and producer and we both went up to see her and she was able to speak to us. You know she was very upset - the stress freaked out.

CO: And she had another stroke and on the Wednesday?

NS: Yeah that's right. We were actually with her at the time and you know it was pretty hard see but for what it's worth, we were able to stay with her right up till the end you know? We were around her through the end of her life you know? Which I thought was really apropos I mean we were very very close group of friends and it broke my heart when when Gabe and I were there before the second stroke and the nurses were coming in she was getting prodded and asked million questions and when people came and said who are these two guys? And she would introduce us as a family and that'll be something that really still sticks with me and I'm incredibly grateful for.

CO: She also is though she was not communicating. I Understand she was still quite engaged with the songs?

NS: Well she wasn't engaged and that's kind of the the amazing thing of it. She really after the second stroke it had really debilitated her she couldn't speak but yet she was able to sing melodies. Seemed like one of the things that was soothing her and the band came up and we had guitars and we were stomping our feet and clapping our hands and she was just in her bed humming and singing Go Tell It On The Mountain, Eyes On The Sparrow, Amazing Grace all the gospel songs that she would sing to us all the time. And it was very intense and incredibly emotional.

CO: That's extraordinary because if she's not able to get to talk and yet she was she was humming and following along the music?

NS: Yeah, I mean to the point where Gabe would be playing guitar the chords to Eyes on the Sparrow and he'd look at me and he'd say watch this Neil. And then he would actually transpose to another key and she would follow him perfectly for us, who were mourning over her and sitting next to her holding her hand crying. It gave us the opportunity to really continue to engage with her and play music and do what we did with her for so many years which allowed us to have a sense of closure to the whole thing.

CO: You know because it had been a long struggle over the last three years she was only 60-years-old and it felt to so many people, her fans that she was just getting started. And just to take us back tell us a bit about what it was like when you first encountered her performances and how she was on the stage?

NS: How she was on the stage with you from the beginning with how she was till the end. And it was never like a legacy artist who had hits in the 70s or 80s and then was doing these tours and you know people waiting to hear the hits. Sharon was singing like she was singing for the first time on stage. Every night we played, right up to the end. In the summer we did a lot of touring and a lot of playing with Hall and Oates and we were opening up for Hall and Oates and the nice thing about it is it was shorter sets because we were the support band which allowed Sharon to have the energy to do 45 minutes. But you know she was struggling to get out on stage, but once she got on stage it was the same performance that you would have heard her do in 2001.

CO: She was told earlier in her career when she was trying to break into music that she was quote, "too short too fat too black and too old" And then she went on to have all these other jobs, she was a corrections officer at Rikers Island. She was an armored car guard for Wells Fargo bank. There's a story about her showing up at a recording session after work wearing her Wells Fargo uniform with her gun. Did she did that experience at all the hard stuff that she did she bring that to the music?

NS: You know she was she wasn't like many potential celebrities I mean Sharon was very real. She allowed people into her life because she was a regular person. She had come from that exactly what you're talking about. So when she played a concert she wanted to go in front of the house and sit at the merch table and meet people and that's what drove her. And I think that that was when she performed gave everyone the sort of personal experience that they were able to take away with them. And I think a lot of you know these emails I've been getting is just how oh when I met Sharon everyone met her because that's the type of person she was because she was a prison guard. She was driving a truck for a while. You know she did what she did.

CO: Is there any particular memory of Sharon Jones that you're going to cherish?

NS: You know I've been thinking about this and I just feel like the memories that I have from her are you know the band being together, sitting around a dinner table before gig in Europe somewhere or her telling us how excited she was about the steak she was eating. And she was always in the moment and then being on stage with her there. There were moments that were so moving for me just because she was able to bring the band to a place that what great music does which is it transcends the music and the players that are playing it. She was able to get the band to this place where we were grooving so hard the music would take on a new feeling. So being on the bandstand with her and just revving the music up to such a place where often would bring a tear to my eye.

CO: Neal, I really appreciate you sharing your memories of Sharon Jones with us. Thank you.

NS: Yeah, we should never forget her.

CAROL OFF: We're going to play some music and I appreciate that. Thank you.


JEFF DOUGLAS: Neal Sugarman is a member of the Dap-Kings and a longtime friend of Sharon Jones. We reached him in New York City and now from a 2010 album I Learned the Hard Way. Here is Sharon Jones with Better Things.

[Music: Soul]

JEFF DOUGLAS: This is from her 2010 album. I Learned the Hard Way. Sharon Jones with Better Things, Ms. Jones died last week she was 60-years-old.

CO: What a great voice, what a great loss. That's it for As It Happens for this Monday, November, 21st. The news is next and we'll be back again tomorrow.

JEFF DOUGLAS: I'm Jeff Douglas. Good evening.

CAROL OFF: And I'm Carol off. Good night

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