Your View

John Tory got exactly what he deserved for catastrophically advocating funding for religious schools. He lost and his party lost.

It is an idea that belongs in the past - the distant past. Religion shouldn't be "taught" in schools - if it needs to be "taught" it should be taught in churches, synagogues and mosques.

People are profoundly suspicious (and rightly so) of religious agendas. History proves this beyond any doubt.

Having raised the issue as one of "fairness" there should be a binding plebescite on defunding the Catholic schools. The current systme is unfair AND it is a horrible waste of tax dollars which are coming out of everyone's pockets. I think it would pass overwhelmingly - as overwhelmingly as Tory and his Tories were defeated on the issue.

Yes, we would need a constitutional amendment but Newfoundland did it when it abolished funding for religious schools. We can too. Constitutions should be amended when, for historic reasons, they no longer meet the needs of the public.

Posted October 11, 2007 09:31 AM

To think that there is no faith system publicly supported in our schools is quite naïve. As our society has predominant Secular-Humanist world-view, the belief system which is presented, supported and encouraged in the public education system is one of Naturalism and Atheism. As this faith system claims to have the reign on the truth of human existence, it is extremely exclusive an threatened by any other faith system that might offer an alternative. Sadly, tax dollars that go to public education are currently used to support this faith system without giving the same option for other systems of belief. In a democratic society, this is considered unfair.

Posted October 11, 2007 12:42 AM

Perhaps the public school system should embrace the richness of its faith filled students and meet their needs. To educate the whole person is the mandate of any school.

Posted October 10, 2007 10:53 PM

I disagree with those commentators who speak about the faith-based school funding issue as a minor issue. As a former Roman Catholic and a strong believer in both a secular, diverse society and the division of Church and State, not only do I believe that there should be NO further public funding of private religious schools (or any other kind of private schools) but that the current funding of Roman Catholic schools should be revoked. To me this is a major issue and, if I were a PC supporter, would have been enough for me to change my vote.

Posted October 10, 2007 10:42 PM

The province should pay the salaries of private and faith based schools,if these students went to the other school systems,public or catholic.They would have to pay.As of now the province is the same as a SLAVE TRADER. Just my Thought.

Posted October 10, 2007 08:57 PM

How do our children get exposed to a great diversity of culture in public schools when they are told they must leave it at home?

Posted October 9, 2007 09:57 AM

Clearly our country does not reflect the realties of the past when the two school systems (private and public)were enshrined in our constitution. Let us concentrate on the future. First, there is no need to dismantle and our school systems, rather we should take an integrated approach and offer faith based courses in each of the school systems based on demand. Bottom line is as diversified we are as a country, we need our future generations and current to integrate rather than segregate.

Faith based schools do not expose our childeren to great diversity of culture and the rich heritage of this wonderful nation we have decended on called CANADA. It will only create a narrowly minded brand of students of different faiths.

Posted October 6, 2007 02:44 PM

There are two important aspects of this debate that, surprisingly and disappointingly, have been overlooked.

First, there remains a 1999 United Nations ruling (Waldman) that Ontario's current method of education funding is discriminatory (they system provides public funds to Catholic schools, but not Jewish or other faith-based schools).

Second, a recent report from The Fraser Institute (May 2007), states that "dissatisfaction with the quality of public eduction" is the primary reason why more parents are choosing to send their children to private schools.

Mr. McGuinty's claim that funding faith-based schools will divert funds from public education is an argument that lacks integrity -- this would only happen if the Legislature CHOOSES to reduce funding to the public system.

There is nothing more precious to me than my daughters, and while paying for their private education is a financial challenge, and do so because of the quality of the education they are receiving. My heart goes out to those parents who would love to be able to do the same for their children, but who can't afford to pay their taxes toward the public system AND pay private tuition.

The best solution appears to be what the Conservatives had previously adopted (not what Mr. Tory now proposes) -- a tax credit system that gives parents greater choice and flexibility. Competition brings improvement and accountability in all other areas of our society -- and I believe increased competition could also have a tremendous greatest impact for improving the public education system.

Posted October 4, 2007 11:42 AM

This issue has been blown WAY out of proportion in this election by the media. Whether we fund faith-based schools is a non-issue and I'm surprised we're even talking about it.

If we fund Catholic schools, there is no just reason why we should not be funding other fatih-based schools as well. It is discrimination pure and simple.

Other provinces in Canada fund other faith-based schools (and surprisingly, chaos did not ensue) so when will Ontario become progressive and change this discrimatory law?

Posted October 3, 2007 12:01 PM

Mr. Tory, you've done a great job playing devil's advocate.

Funding of faith-based education is a thorny issue.

You've got all kind of "things: coming out of the woodwork. Generated an ISSUE that voters are talking about and thereby getting involved in the election process.

Good luck, I don't think this is going to backfire.

Posted October 2, 2007 07:24 PM

A public school is just that...public..for all people regardless of race or religion as all religion has been removed from it. This is why it is funded by the government for all.

Originally, our public schools were Christian based...and this offended some in our multi cultural society, so we therefore changed our own Christian based school system and took out any religion that it contained.
We can not practice our own religion, CHristianity in our own public school system. It was changed to accommodate others and now you want us to pay for them to have religion in their own school...where is the justice for Christians?

Posted October 2, 2007 12:47 AM

Oct. 1 - this is truly a sad day for justice in Ontario. John Tory, because of macilious mis-information & prejudice, is forced to alter his "support to faith-based schools."

Does the public not know that we pay fully & support the public school system, while also supporting our faith-based schools?

Where would the money come from if we decide to dump our 56,000 students into the public school system? Ontario is one of the few provinces that gives NO suport to our schools. Where is the justice?

Posted October 1, 2007 02:07 PM

As the discussion has progressed, I have sensed a shift. Initially people simply said, No to faith-based funding. Now people still say No, but they acknowledge, are current system is unfair and unjust. I believe the people of Ontario believe in 'fairness' and 'justice' and that they want a province which desplays these values.

I can't help but wonder whether Mr. McGuinty's election promise that, the Liberals will not take away funding for Catholic schools, will not end up being the promise he breaks.

Posted September 30, 2007 09:09 PM

Speak not of faith-based schools, but rather, of faith-based public schools.

Parents have a right to have their taxes support the schools of their choice provided they adhere to the publically approved curriculum and have a population of sufficient numbers to finance them with their taxes.

If rich corporations would pay their fair share of taxes our public schools would not have a funding problem.

There is no reason why all public schools of whatever faith-base cannot share facilities such as sports arenas, music, art, computer labs and libraries, while still being free to foster the values of their faith that they believe contributes to society as a whole.

Posted September 30, 2007 02:36 PM

Yes, All Faiths should be treated equally. Unfortunately in Ontario that does not happen. We already fund the largest faith publicly, though it is not a public system. The Catholic school boards are open only to Catholics. I attempted to enrol my son in JK in a Simcoe County Catholic school and was told at every turn that I could not enrol my son.
I guess being a Canadian of good standing for thousands of years, with a smattering of Scottish, English and French (we are Metis) who practise a Christian faith other than Catholicism means that we are not equal in the eyes of the Catholic boards. This is unacceptable in a free and democratic country. I believe even the UN has ruled against this but we continue it.

Why? McGuinty states that the right to a Catholic education predates Confederation and is enshrined in the Constitution. Well, like the right, moral and just decisions to allow Natives the right to vote, homosexuals the right to go about their lives like anyone else and other corrected wrongs, this hypocrisy against Faith Based schools is wrong!! Guess What??

We have been funding faith based schools for a while now. Anyone who uses this argument against Faith Based schools to decide who/who not to support in the election who has been enrolled in a Catholic school or has a child enrolled in a Catholic school is being totally two faced and discriminatory.

Either we fund all faiths or we fund none.
Lastly, again realize that we already fund a faith based education system which is 100% private, open only to Catholics.

Posted September 27, 2007 10:55 PM

While tempting, I will not get into a discussion on the oneness of religion and education as it is tantamount to discussing whose dad is the best father in the universe: yours or mine’s.

We presently have a school funding system where the strong majority are dictating to the weak minority on how the weak minority should be schooling their children, where they should be schooled and what they should be taught. As such the present schooling system is unfair, irrational, lacks choices and unjustly imposes one way of thinking and lifestyle upon another.

In a fair & just society a parent should have a choice to send his/her child to a school that they think best educates them without incurring any additional costs.

Under the previous PC government, we had a bill passed that gave tax breaks to parents sending their children to faith based schooling so that they don’t have to double fund their and other children’s education. However, with the Liberals in power and bigots that they are, saw this as unjust to the strong majority and successfully killed the tax break for other faiths but not the constitutionally disadvantaged Catholics.

In the coming weeks we have a golden opportunity to put the Liberal bigots out and right the ones wronged.

Posted September 27, 2007 07:05 PM

Mr. Will Smith just posted an example of religious people attitude to the "faith school" problem. His words: "go back to your muslim school and publics. Catholic school is the best, you hard-knocks can all go back to your public schools."

When Mr. Tory wins with his nonsensical proposal we will hear more of this from Pastafarians, Adventists of the Umpteenth Day, Wikkans and Voodooists. They all will have right to run their "faith schools", otherwise they will sue the Province of Ontario. Can you imagine the mess?!

Posted September 27, 2007 06:21 PM

My apologies Humayun for misspelling your name. I get that all the time as well, and like you I correct people who make that mistake.

I don't believe that a faith-based school would directly teach segregation, but that segregation would be a result of dividing students along religious lines.

That being said, I do agree that the current system is unfair--in my opinion, there shouldn't be any publicly-funded faith-based school systems, including the Catholic board. School should be secular, without religious connotation because religion is a personal matter.

In the same vein, there should certainly not be bullying and inferiority based on religious beliefs. There have been strides in correcting this problem, but it is indeed not perfect yet. But bullying will happen regardless of the type of school; religion is just one of the many excuses for bullying--bullies will find other excuses.

A child does not have to leave their religion at home; strength in diversity means sharing among different people and the whole growing stronger from it. If our children can learn to discuss their differing religions without trying to convince the other that theirs is 'better' or anything, then we are all better for it. But they won't have that opportunity for discourse if they are separated.

Nevertheless, I cannot accept your notion that education and religion are one and the same. Or rather, that a general education is the same as religion. There can be religious education--and that is what churches, mosques, synagogues, and other places of worship are for. As for mathematics, science, reading and writing and so on, that's what belongs in school. School is for the development of rational thought, and religion is for the development of belief. I'm sorry, but I can't accept that the two can co-exist in a single institution with proper harmony.

Posted September 27, 2007 11:56 AM

Congratulations Mr. Tory you've lost the election. Shows what happens when you pander to special interest groups.

Posted September 27, 2007 10:45 AM

I think we need to keep the faith-based schools because it is a part of God.If you are not catholic,you dont mean what it feel like,so you should stop talking bad things about catholic school and go back to your muslim school and publics. Catholic school is the best, you hard-knocks can all go back to your public schools.

Posted September 26, 2007 09:07 PM

There are all kinds of schools. What are we picking of just one aspect – religion?

If we don’t allow faith based schools then we shouldn’t allow language based schools and programs. No 100% English, 100% French, immersion, extended, etc. combinations of language. In fact we should not allow any specializations in schools – no uniform schools, no choir schools, no arts schools, no girl-only and boy-only schools, etc.. Just a single school board is enough.

Does this sound reasonable?

Competition between boards and schools will bring out the best. Just link companies, products and services – if I don’t link one I’ll use another. I am frustrated that I have no choice and that I can’t influence schools by directing funding to the best school.

Ministry guidelines, curriculum, and standardized testing are there to ensure that every student gets the bare minimum. Schools will compete for students by getting better scores in test, teaching more than the minimum curriculum, or specializing in certain areas.

Each student should get the same government funding for education not matter what school he/she chooses to go to.

Posted September 26, 2007 05:44 PM

Although my children have been educated in the Catholic system, I would prefer to see only one school system rather than further fragment the school system. There is already enough problems educating our children and ensuring best use of our dollar adding to the mix. By having everyone in the same school, we might even learn a bit more about each other and learn to get along.

Faith education could be an provided in the schools during lunch hours or as after school activy or maybe it could be pursued outside of school.

Posted September 26, 2007 12:51 PM

I am Catholic and I accept the validity of other faiths. Mine is just one of many.

As long as you and I accept the underlying principle of faith, that there is a higher authority (call it God or Truth or Nature) that is guiding us to live in peace with the truth, we have an all inclusive contract. The rest are social details.

I want our children to be comfortable discussing their faith. To do this they need to learn about it. When they receive the same message at school as they do at home, they learn better. They can ask questions, and we can answer them defining right and wrong.

Tory's faith funding proposal will strengthen Ontario by reducing ignorance and discrimination because people can only intelligently discuss faith when they are treated equally. We still live, work and play together. We still have laws that protect the peace.

This is the natural extension to multiculturalism and the only hope for peace on earth.

Posted September 26, 2007 12:19 PM

To Devin,

My name is Humayun. Frankly speaking if you abhor any system that teaches children to believe something that cannot be proven then you should have the right to impart that kind of knowledge to your own children and raise them the way you like. How would you feel if the only option we had in Ontario was to send our children to Islamic schooling otherwise we would have had to pay it for yourselves and then fund someone else’s Islamic education too (like I presently do).

I personally know many parents who have a strong preference to send their children to faith based schooling similar to the Catholics but are unable to do so because of the COST. Tory’s solution brings faith based schools at equal footing with the public and Catholic schooling systems. Simply said it should be the parent’s choice where they send their children and the government’s role is to provide us with the options.

Religion does not teach segregation nor does it teach intolerance, period. Like you I do not want to put barriers between children but at the same time I do want to protect my children from bullying, name calling or an inferiority complex because there are of a different religion nor do I want them to develop split personalities: being Muslim at home and Non-Muslim at school just because the teachers or other students want them to be that way.

Religion is as much part of education as education is part of religion and anyone who proposes otherwise is also following a belief set maybe their own religion.
I too abhor any system that teaches children to not believe in something that cannot be proven (using humankind’s limited but evolving knowledge). Likewise, it is beyond basic sense for me to teach or allow anyone else to teach children that the earth & sky, animals, plants and basically everything around us happened by chance through atomic & molecular mischievousness (while a plausible proposition) as the only proven truth.

Posted September 26, 2007 09:09 AM

There are plenty of hours in the week to practice whatever religious beliefs we Canadians desire.

Weekends, evenings, faith based picnics and in home religious instruction are but a few time options that individuals can use to put forward and participate in religious activities.

Religion should not be the defining criteria by which we educate our children and does not have a place in the public school system in Ontario.

Wake up Mr. Tory and look at the turmoil that religious separation has caused through out the world.

Posted September 25, 2007 10:00 PM

To Mustafa and Hamayun:

I have to concede the point that it is an unfair and unequal system that requires us to pay for Catholic education. However, I disagree that Tory's solution is the right one. Another and frankly better solution to the inequality is to stop funding for any religious school.

Forgive me for being blunt, but education is not about religious indoctrination and segregation. While the schools you cite might be of higher quality, it could be that is because they are privately funded and that they cater to your desires. Nevertheless they do serve to isolate children from children of other backgrounds, which feeds discrimination and distrust. Putting barriers between children is not an answer.

To be perfectly honest, I abhore any system that teaches children to believe something that cannot be proven before they have the wherewithal to make such determination for themselves. No 5-year-old is going to know the difference between learning that 4+3=7 and the story of Noah's Ark. If mathematics, a proven form of education, is taught along side scriptures that cannot be proven, what message does that send? No, religion and education should forever remain separate.

Posted September 25, 2007 04:28 PM

In response to your question:

Should all religious schools receive the same degree of public funding? Duh….YES!

What effect would this have on the public system? Simple economics, if there is demand for the public system than parents will enroll their children. If not then the public system will die its natural death.

It is really ironic that the whole issue of funding faith based schools is coming up when other religious minorities are asking for the same rights accorded to the Catholics in our so called fair society. Contrary to our self image we do live in a very intolerant society otherwise the funding of faith based schools besides Catholic would not have been such a big issue!

The real issue is not about funding faith based schools but rather about wasting more money in our ineffective, inefficient and bureaucractic schooling system where teachers are more concerned about their pay and free time then about teaching children. Vested interests (teachers, unions, school boards) and bigots (Dalton McGuinty to name one of many) have a big stake in our continued funding of the present education system which guarantees their survival and personal affiliation.

Also as a side note unlike most of the commenter’s who have provided their free (or cheap) insights, two out of my three children are school going and both attend an Islamic private school in Mississauga. While I am very happy & satisfied with the education they are getting and plan to keep them there. I do strongly feel that I should not be paying for other children’s religious (i.e. Catholics) or secular education when no one is paying for my children’s education.

Posted September 25, 2007 02:19 PM

I wish that people look at the issue from a Fairness perspective rather than just religion. I personally believe that the public education should be for all and about all, so it should teach about all religions and value of life. As a matter of fairness, it is not fair to fund Catholic schools only and shun others.

Fund all religions or bring all funds to the public schools with no special treatment to any religion.

I agree with the conservative party strongly as this is a fairness and equality issue.

Posted September 25, 2007 01:41 PM

Although Canada has become a multi-cultural society, often the only place the varying cultures meet is in the workplace and in the school yard. It is in these places that individuals are forced to co-operate and co-exist. If schools are funded based on religious lines, the very real possibility exists that Jews, Protestants, Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists and yes Catholics could go through the first 18 years of their lives never having the opportunity to encounter anyone whose basic paradigms vary from their own. It is my experience that if you want people to be tolerant and maybe even understanding of anyone else, they must be exposed to an environment where they are expected to "work it out".

I think it is irresponsible to assume that children can grow up in an isolated environment and then be expected to model a generous and enlightened multicultural world view.

I believe segregated schools of any description are a step backward and do not contribute to the creation of a Canada that I want to live in. If change is sought in the name of equality, it would be more enlightnend to end the funding of Catholic separate schools.

Posted September 23, 2007 07:39 PM

One Educational system across the country.

No religious schools that is the job of their respective churches, not the government.

All parties should be represented in debates not just the moneyed ones.

Equal opportunity and information for all or are the major parties scared of the smaller ones.

I would very much like to see debates and not smear tactics. Same for adds. As soon as I see smear tactics they lose my vote. Cause my reasoning is they are afraid of the man/woman and have no real grounds to argue.

Posted September 23, 2007 01:14 PM

A full separation of church/religion from the state will be achieved when religious establishments start paying taxes as all the rest of us do. Right now the state subsidizes religious organization including the subversive ones. I suggest that we keep this issue in mind for the next federal election after we successfully solve the "faith schools" nonsense.

Can somebody estimate what's the total amount of money owed by religious industry to our society?

Posted September 23, 2007 10:39 AM

It is my right as a citizen of this country to attend a Catholic school that is publicly funded. This right is outlined specifically in the Canadian Constitution, in which Ontario is the last Province in Canada to not use Section 33 of the Charter (The Notwithstanding clause) to dissolve it. Catholic Schools are paid by the parents whoes children go there. Not only Catholics, but Protestants and those with no other religious affiliation attend Catholic schools for no other reason than a better atmosphere for their children. It's not fair as a citizen of this province to pay for other children to go to school (buy paying taxes) and have to pay extra for my own to attend a school that is guaranteed to me by the Canadian Constitution.

Posted September 23, 2007 03:06 AM

While I agree with a lot of the points Mr. Tory made during the debate, and he impresses me as a strong, well-spoken, intelligent and thoughtful leader, I have one concern.

The Conservative Party position on funding Faith-based private schools. Is this a sign that Mr. Tory is bending to the will of Special Interest Groups?

Hopefully not. I think a lot of us have had enough of that from the Liberals both at the Federal and Provincial levels, and it's time someone took a stand against it.

The role of the Premier and each and every MLA is to represent the best interests of all of the people of Ontario.

It is not their job to represent some Special Interest Group that wants to bribe them by offering to bring in votes, favors to individuals, etc. and get favors in return. This would be, in my opinion, political corruption at it's worst.

Mr. Tory's explanation for his position on faith-based schools is that he would like to bring them into and under the requirements of the Public Education system.

This certainly makes sense and I can understand his reasoning.

My problem is that our Public Education system is already stretched to the limit financially. I don't believe we have the money to support these special schools without seriously damaging the Public School system further.

As far as I'm concerned, people who choose to take their children out of the public education system, and into special schools of any kind, faith based or not, should do so at their own expense. All schools, private and public, should be required to follow the official Ontario School Curriculum, funded or not. So Mr. Tory should be able to accomplish the task of bringing these schools into the system without funding them with taxpayers dollars.

As a taxpayer, I can think of many, more important areas which require funding and which would benefit everyone, not just a select few.

Posted September 22, 2007 11:52 AM

I partially disagree with what Mike (GTA) said

"The only thing that is happening here is those parents who pay twice for education (once through their taxes and again through their paying privately) saves the public system a substantial amount of money. We should be thanking them, as they are in fact subsidizing the public system by paying for it but not using it."

While it is true that those parents are saving the overall tax system some money, tuition is tax deductible so they are only paying once not twice. Because of the funding structure of education the more students that attend a public school board the more money that school board gets. Too many children not in public school weakens the public school system.

I believe most faith based schools are socially divisive, unsupportive of the Canadian constitution and have discriminatory hiring practices. I do not want my tax dollars going towards ANY of them.

P.S.Didn't the Pope recently say only Catholics go to heaven. I can't think of a much more divisive statement.

Posted September 22, 2007 02:34 AM

Ronald, I agree wholeheartedly ... and while I don't agree with John Tory's solution, at least the man has the integrity to bring the problem to the table.

Posted September 21, 2007 07:54 PM

The principle of the separation of Church and State is the result of a long history. This was the only workable solution that ended the religious tyranny of previous times..

Recent funding of the Roman Catholic School system in Ontario is contrary to that principle. It has led to the present call from other faith based groups for public funding and rightly so. Costs are getting out of hand because of this move away from the basic principle of a single public school system.

It is desirable that all students attend a public school that mixes all faiths and cultures. This will ensure better understanding of our differences and build better tolerance within our society.

I grew up in Toronto in the 40's and 50's and saw firsthand the intolerance that separate schooling results in. Don't emphasize the differences by creating what amounts to cultural and religious ghettos. This is even more important as we bring religions other than the Christian-Judaic into our land.

Leave religion where it belongs, in the church, mosque, temple or synagogue. Unite Canadians by creating a feeling of common values and not promote what we see in the U.K. where young fundamentalists born in the U.K. claim they have no loyalty to their country.

Shame I say to politicians that promote this separateness. They have only created problems for the present and future by straying from the basic separation of Church and State.

Posted September 21, 2007 04:16 PM

Religious education in schools should be "about religion", we should not be teaching doctrine. Our kids need to learn about, and understand, many religions, as a part of understand how we got where we are. I think we'd have a lot more tolerance if we understood each other better.

As things stand right now there is one, and only one religion taught in publicly funded schools, and that is Roman Catholicism. We got to this point because public schools used to teach Christianity based mostly on protestant beliefs, and we pledged funding for RC schooling as a balance.

Well RC is all that's left now ... and that's elitist and discriminatory.

I believe we should have all or none (preferably none) ... but as I can't see there being a Green government, I guess John Tory is closest to a fair solution. Dalton McGuinty, having been brought up in this environment, having his kids in separate schools, and married to a separate school teacher ... may just be a tad biased.

Posted September 21, 2007 02:10 PM

While I can appreciate the sentiment you express Nasser, nonetheless I believe you are wrong. The problem with religion is that it is not 'education', it is 'belief'. This creates an environment where students will find certain province-required concepts taught with a grain of salt because it contradicts the religious teachings--I'm sure an Evangelical Christian school will teach evolution, but it will be done in such a way as to suggest it's a widely-accepted but generally false or suspect view of the origins of life. This of course gives a student a flawed view of science in general, which will inhibit their opportunities later in life.

Education is supposed to be about training students for life in this world, not the next one. Churches, mosques, synagogues--those are places to contemplate and learn about spiritualism.

Religion has no purpose in education but to divide people, to teach children that 'this' is the 'one true way' and that the others are wrong. It may fill your need for spirituality, but it does little to promote strength in diversity, which is something we need in this life.

Posted September 21, 2007 12:32 PM

I'm a 38 year old professional engineer. I was born in Toronto and raised all my life in this beautiful province.

Looking back, I wish I had the oppurtunity being in a Muslim funded school. I'm learning today of my faith of what I should have known many years ago!

Religion teaches us the purpose of life. This is needed with the great secular education we have in Ontario.

I can honestly tell you that you will have a better productive society. People in faith based schools would be more appreciative of what life has to offer.

Our hard earned tax dollars should be delagated to personal choice. No extra money will be needed or so called 'cuts' will be required.

Posted September 21, 2007 11:00 AM

A first generation perspective for you....

My parents came to Canada in the 1960's from India. While they were able to keep our family emersed in our culture socially, they did not have a choice but to put their children in the public school system. Thankfully this was the case. Through that experience, all 5 children gained valuable life experience from hearing different perspectives. We embraced diversity, and most importantly we learned tolerance that serves us to this day.

By publicly funding religious school, beyond what is required by historical law (ie. Catholic funding) we will be dividing our society and creating insular pockets that will not have an understanding of the other side. That is not what Canada stands for.

Unfortunately our household was set to vote Tory prior to John Tory's stance on this issue. He leaves us not choice but to vote for the Liberals as this issue goes to the fundamental roots of the benefits of Canadian society.

Posted September 21, 2007 09:46 AM

I am fascinated by all of this anti funding of the catholic system (and my kids go to public school).

If you pull the funding from the Catholic system, all of those kids would simply enroll in the “public” system? So while you “save” on the catholic system, you simply increase dramatically the cost to the “public” system. The net result is no change in the cost structure. So all we really have that is different now is the parents choice to go to a publicly funded public school, or a publicly funded catholic school. Whats wrong with having choices?? Maybe we should bring back the model T ford and you can have it in any color as long as it is black. If the cost is the same, then who cares? Don’t tell me the Catholic system is hurting the general public, and it certainly can’t be “hurting” the public system.

The issue here is more about funding additional faith based schools. Yes, where is the money going to come from?

But let’s think about the inverse, what if all of these faith based schools who are privately funded, decided to all send their kids into the public system?????

Those parents are paying into a public system they are not using, and therefore if they actually start using the system, it will be maxed out even further, which means our taxes will go up, so we’re paying for it anyways!!!!!

The only thing that is happening here is those parents who pay twice for education (once through their taxes and again through their paying privately) saves the public system a substantial amount of money. We should be thanking them, as they are in fact subsidizing the public system by paying for it but not using it.

Posted September 21, 2007 09:44 AM

Well it is so funny to hear Dalton talk in the ad, public schools are so great because of their inclusivity of all faiths, but he doesn’t send his own kids to a public school?

If truly the seperate schools are part of the system why do I need a letter from my “parish priest” to apply for a job there?

Why can we take money out of the public system to fund Catholic schools but not others?

Why can’t Catholic parents pay for their own education if it is so important that they remain seperate from the public system?

I know all about the history and I know that the historical reasons no longer apply in Quebec. So why here?

Why complain about $500 million but not about all the money to support the Catholic schools? Where were the Liberals and NDP complaining in 1985 to extend funding to Catholics - instead they voted for extending funding and taking money away from the public system. NDP hypocrisy is as amazing as the Liberals.

Posted September 20, 2007 09:58 PM

I feel that faith base schools, would only segregate us again. i.e. would a wasp (boy or girl) go to a Hindu school or a Muslum school.

Posted September 20, 2007 09:39 PM

I agree with the comments regarding that religion, including Catholicism, has absolutely no place in publicly funded schooling. It may be a can of worms for any government to open, but religion is a highly divisive concept and incorporating it into a public institution is wrong. One of Canada's best qualities is the idea that people of different backgrounds come together in common purpose. That attitude needs to begin with childhood.

The argument that people should have the right, as taxpayers, to have their religious values taught to their children is simply unfounded; there is already an institution for that: church (or mosque, or shrine, or whatever). Though frankly, I agree with msr and others that religious indoctrination of children is wrong, since children do not have the development to make reasoned choices of their own.

At any rate, religion is not appropriate for a publicly-funded school, as it promotes segregation and has the potential to put forth concepts that is contradictory to established education (creationism/intelligent design vs. evolution, for example). Public schools should be religion-free.

Posted September 20, 2007 08:44 PM

As Richard Dawkins put it, there are no (insert religion of your choice here) children. There are only children being indoctrinated into a religious belief system by their parents.

The state has no place funding such indoctrination and should even ban it until the child becomes an adult and can make an informed decision for oneself.

Posted September 20, 2007 05:04 PM

We may not divide our children along religious lines! We cannot allow Mr. Tory and Mr. McGuilty to turn back the wheel of history and teach our children stone-age superstitions and dogmas. Our future leaders need clear, rational minds not muddled by religious nonsense. This can only be achieved by a high quality, publicly funded educational system accessible to all regardless of their origins or beliefs. The wall between religion and the state must remain impermeable.

I always voted Conservative but this time i will give my vote to the Greens. I might not agree 100% with their platform but their stand on education is the only one that makes sense to me. There is nothin more fundamental for our future than education of our youth. It's more important than health issues as they will be handled by future doctors and leaders educated in our schools.

Posted September 20, 2007 03:48 PM

I don't support funding any faith based schools. A major reason is that I attended them from SK through grade 6, 35 years ago.

The only reason some of them score well academically is that if a kid isn’t doing well their parents pull them out and put them in free public school. The only kids that stay are those that can cope with minimal teaching (half the day is devoted to religious and alternate language studies). We had no music, no arts, no cooking, no shop, a useless amount of French.

Of course we thought we were better than other religions, most people think their school is the best. If the school is segregated on religious lines the assumption will be it is better because of religion.

I don’t think my school was any more sexist than the public system but the public system is trying to fix it. I doubt the private ones care. Where are the women in the bible?

My kids in the public system learn how to treat other kids and be charitable to “all” which I think is a lot more important than bible studies.

Posted September 20, 2007 03:04 PM

There should be one publicly funded school system,period.
We are multi-cultural,multi-religious and multi-ligual in Canada.

We should be promoting inclusion and integration rather than exclusion and segregation.

That is the biggest problem in the world today,too much sepratism.

Whether we like it or not,we are all in this world together,so we would all better learn to get along.

Kids see kids as kids.
It's the adults who can't get along.

Posted September 20, 2007 02:42 PM

100% funding to public schools only, the maritime provinces have it right. Religion does not belong in the public education system nor should public funds be directed towards religious based education, plain and simple.

Once governments start funding a few religious based schools they will then be obliged to fund many more as time goes on. Where will they draw the line? Do they fund every single religious based school out there? Religion is a very personal thing that belongs to the individual, not the public. Beginning to fund religious based schools at this point in time is like taking a giant leap backwards.

Posted September 20, 2007 01:18 PM

Schools are for education.
Churches are for religion.

Government should support schools which only teach education and those who wish anything extra should bear the cost themselves.

I once took a class on religion in my public school which compared the major faiths without any bias toward one or an other and found the class interesting. This type of class is probably as close to religion as any government funded school should get.

The Catholic school system should never have been government funded in the first place.

In a society where we need to live with people of different religions and races separating these kids based on religions during their early education only magnifies their differences and feeds intolerance between religious beliefs which may last a lifetime.

Posted September 20, 2007 09:23 AM

I believe the government should only be funding a public school system where every child is welcome and those who wish an education based on their religion should carry the cost of such an education.

The government may wish to consider a partial tax rebate for those whose children do not attend the publicly funded school system.

Furthermore the Catholic school system should never have been publicly funded and believe their funding be revoked unless they are willing to follow the public school curriculum, allow non-catholics to attend and hire non-catholic staff.

Schools are for education. Churches are for religion.

About 35 years ago when I was in the public school system the school I attended offered a class on religion, which I took, in which the teacher explained the fundamental differences between the Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim and other religions without a bias toward any. This class was actually quite interesting and about as close to religion as I feel a government funded school system should get.

Posted September 20, 2007 08:44 AM

Faith and education are seperate idenities. Faith is in conflict with the logic of mathamatics and science and ought not be funded as a matter of public policy.

Posted September 20, 2007 04:30 AM

Secularism has it backward. It should not try to force belief from the public forum by abolishing it to the privacy of one's home and place of worship. Why has "secular" become a synonym for "atheist?"

Posted September 19, 2007 10:04 PM

Parents should receive education vouchers that they could spend how they see fit. This would encourage some much needed competition and give parents more choice.

Posted September 19, 2007 09:54 PM

In an era when all Canadians are finally accorded equal rights under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms; it is an abrogation of human rights and dignity , for any public funding of schools that teach opposition to equality and insist upon the right to discriminate against a sizeable segment of the Canadian population , based on the misuse of freedom of religion.

These same belief systems have been used to justify a variety of human degredations in past years ; ranging from slavery and racial segregation ; to previously accepted practices of denying the right to vote in popular elections and turning a blind eye to lynchings ; sexual abuse ; and the infliction of conditions that assured ostracizing and entrenched poverty.

It is one thing to have the right to believe and preach; the perceived inferiority of others. It is quite another to expect all citizens; including those immediately impacted ; to have to financially contribute to the dissemination of such beliefs.

Posted September 19, 2007 08:50 PM

Separation of church and state came in hundreds of years ago. Let us unite this province, not secularize it. We are opposed to funding faith-based schools, including the Catholic schools in this province. Religion can be taught at local churches where it belongs.

Posted September 19, 2007 08:19 PM

In an era on on-line banking, internet connections in all libraries, and where “American Idol” could count over 66 million votes to choose a media star, what are the barriers to reducing representational democracy and instituting direct democracy? Are we afraid that the will of the majority might override the interest of the minority?

Posted September 19, 2007 06:01 PM

By all means, provide complete and adequate funding for a strong public school system first. I can't see how the basic educational curriculum that should be taught to all children varies among different religions, to the extent that a separate school is required.

Beyond the universal curriculum, individual religions obviously have much supplemental information that they want to teach members of their faith, but surely the most suitable environment for specific religious teachings is within the church, synagogue, temple or mosque.

I can appreciate the historical reasons why Catholic schools received commitments for funding. However, rather than use this as an argument for diluting the public school system with more faith-based options, perhaps it is time to re-evaluate whether or not it is still appropriate to provide public funding to a separate Catholic school system.

Posted September 19, 2007 02:10 PM

I am opposed to funding faith-based schools
for the following reasons:

1)It would be divisive. Splintering
communities into various isolated groups
would breed intolerance.

2)Administration of such a system would be
costly to implement and monitor (e.g.,
buildings, staffing, accommodating special
needs students, resources).

3)Government initiatives would be questioned
and may not be complied with, because of
different belief systems (e.g., Grade 8
females are required to get HPV vaccines;
and girls may be viewed in a traditional
stereotyped role of being submissive and
subservient and not considered equal...)

4)Teacher quality and calibre would become
inferior since the Teachers' Union would
be dismantled. It would be too difficult to
organize all the different school bodies
under one umbrella and this would force
the teachers to accept lower wages. Top-
notch professionals would not want to work
for lower pay.

John Tory, the Conservative Leader must seriously reconsider his educational proposal
for publicly funded faith-based schools...if he doesn't, he will indeed have a "crisis" on
his hands without having to fabricate one like his former colleague, John Snobolen had. Be wary of the Conservative Johns...they aren't interested in bettering the average Joes.

Posted September 19, 2007 02:05 PM

I’ve always been a supporter of the Conservative Party; furthermore, I can’t stand Mr. McGuinty, however on the issue of spending 400 million dollars annually to fund religion-based schools, I can’t in good faith give him my vote.

Segregation is never a good idea, and we also have to take into consideration that there are some religious groups that are extreme, especially when it comes to females. We live in a multicultural society; we have to learn to be tolerant and understanding of each other. The Public system would be more than enough for everybody if they would stop taking political correctness to ridiculous levels.

There isn’t a reason why children of all faiths shouldn’t be able to observe somewhat their respective faith-based celebrations and share them with the rest of the students.

Posted September 19, 2007 01:36 PM

We were denied access to the catholic school because we are non-catholic christians. We thought christianity was about acceptance but seems to the Catholic school administration to be about exclusion. In the end we were forced to enroll either in a bilingual program or travel extensively due to the school bus system. In the end we were left mad and can't understand how our taxes are paying for this kind of unfair exclusion but glad not have subjected our children to such an environment.

Posted September 19, 2007 11:53 AM

Faith based schools should be outlawed completely. They are not educational centres but brainwashing devices. In public school systems, from Grades 7 to 12, unbiased teaching of all the religions of the world, past and present, and their effects on societies, should be MANDATORY..

The history of all religions, past and present, should be a major subject for exploration and discussion in classrooms across the nation. Parents wishing to teach their children in the home should be monitored regularly
to ascertain that these children are being taught the history & development of religions of the world in a totally dispassionate way.

Posted September 19, 2007 11:42 AM

John Tory should stop working to eroded the public education system more than the Conservative Party has already done under the Harris Conservatives. We are now suffering from the crisis in Education we we're promised.

Promsing to fund faith based education is a way of taking funds out of the already underfunded public system where parents and children are now forced hold funding drives to by textbooks and fund arts and sprots programs in the schools.

We cannot afford to take funds of on education system to support and education system that segregates our children based on religious beleifs that teach superiority and intolerance of another persons god or non-god. It is the education systems place education not religion.

Remember that this is a country where the church is seperate from the state and should stay that way.

Posted September 19, 2007 10:38 AM

Being a survivor of a catholic school (barely, the nuns beat the ... out of me) I know it´s about time for a secular school system everywhere!

Posted September 19, 2007 01:54 AM

I don't like the fact that half of my educational tax portion of my property taxes goes to funding the Catholic school system even though I'm not Catholic. We're basically donating money to the Catholic church. If Catholics believe strongly in their own school system, let them pay for it or get the Vatican to free up some of their billions to fund it.

Posted September 18, 2007 10:59 PM

Where is "the separation of Church and State" in the Canadian constitution? Too many viewers are watching CNN.

It's foolish to think that taking religion out of schools will solve the schooling problem. It's linked to something bigger. With globalization and 9-11, we need to wake up and determine how religion should play a role in the education of our youth rather than pretending that it doesn't exist.

Posted September 18, 2007 09:10 PM

Canada is becoming a joke financing all these multicultural religious groups, but you can blame the Federal Liberals for this mess.

Posted September 18, 2007 07:09 PM

Either fund all religious schools that follow the provincial school curriculum or eliminate the Catholic school system altogether. The hypocrisy must end. Why should parents have to pay taxes to the "public system" which includes only one faith, Catholicism, to the exclusion of all others, while having to pay again if they choose to send their children to a non Catholic school? It's blatantly unfair and discriminatory.

Posted September 18, 2007 05:16 PM

Has Tory given any kind of hint as to what he defines a religion as? Obviously Islam, Judaism and Hinduism come to mind, but i think i speak for 99% of people when i say that i certainly don't want Scientology or Raelienism even having a chance at funding. This religion thing wasn't planned out very well at all. I guess we can hope for the green party.

Posted September 18, 2007 05:03 PM

It is time things change. It was fine 100 years ago when there were only 2 main religions but there are far too many nowadays (and we won't even talk about knowing which one is actually right!). If we keep on subdividing religions, soon we'll have a school that is roman catholic, for boys only who are the 'crunchy' peanut butter type, dark meat type, of black skin, green eyes, whose family drives a Japanese car and that have an IQ above 95...

Religion must be separated from politics and public places and stay in churches, mosques and private homes. As a Caucasian white guy who was born in Canada, I must adapt to this ever-changing country and so must everybody else, regardless of their racial or religious background.

If unity will not come by itself, I strongly believe it has to be (to a point) imposed. Starting with the schools.

Posted September 18, 2007 04:56 PM

Personally I think church and state should be 2 seperate entities. I would not loose much sleep if the Public and Seperate School boards were forced to amalgamate.

I started elementry school in the catholic system, but in grade 5 I changed to the public system. I am glad my parents did the swap, it did indeed open up my eyes to other cultures and allowed me to make my religious choices I wanted with a more open mind.

Posted September 18, 2007 02:38 PM

The public school system provides a unique opportunity to personally get to know students and families from different faiths and cultures. Our family has been greatly enriched because of our frienships with families from our school who are from other faiths (we are Christian, they are Muslim), and had we each had the opportunity to attend publicly funded faith-based schools, our world view would be so much more limited.

Funding Catholic schools and not funding other faiths is unfair. In fact, a few years ago, when I inquired about registering my child for kindergarten at our local Catholic school, I was turned away at the school's office because neither myself or my husband was baptized Catholic. This is still a mystery to me, since Catholic schools receive public funds.

Directing all funds to one public system would be a positive move in increasing tolerance and understanding in our multicultural society, while making it more equitable for all.

Posted September 18, 2007 02:25 PM

Why have the people of Ontario allowed this discimination to go on for as long as it has.Not to mention it is job creation for Catholics only, What company would be allowed to operate in Ontario if you only hired Protestants......None

Posted September 18, 2007 01:47 PM

When faith-based schools join with public schools, what is going to keep all sorts of minor religions from opening schools and begging for public funds? it should be kept separate. keep it simple. public funds for public schools.

Posted September 18, 2007 01:30 PM

A persons faith is personal. In this day of multi-cultural groups in our cities.These days for some reason people and special intrest groups have there wants. But for some reason expect the government and the rest of society to pick up their the tab. Our children are sent to school to learn for there future. If their parents are so concerned about their souls do so at home.

Posted September 18, 2007 01:12 PM

Although there is no easy solution and someone will be angered by any action taken on this issue, I am surprised at how many people are willing to accept the current situation. It is by definition discriminatory to choose one religious group and decide that only their education system deserves public funding. The fact that this discrimination has historical roots is irrelevant. You could fill countless pages with instances of historical discrimination that have been corrected over the years, and for each instance I’m sure there were those who argued “this is simply the way it’s always been done”.

I personally see the value in faith-based education and would hate to see faith-based education lose public funding. On the other hand, to fund all religious groups equally would be an expensive proposition for the taxpayers of Ontario. This is a difficult choice, but it is one that has to be made.

Posted September 18, 2007 12:32 PM

Paying taxes gives us the right to access PUBLIC services. If you choose to opt out of the public system, your private schools, religious or not, should not receive one dime of public funds. If people wanted a redundant set of better roads, or simply different roads because they come from a place where you drive on the left, would we give them public funds for their pivate roads. Of course not! There's plenty of time outside of school hours to pass along religious beliefs. Public funds for public schools only!

Posted September 18, 2007 11:58 AM

No to funding faith-based schools - it is anti-constitutional and a huge burden on tax payers. It must end.

Posted September 18, 2007 11:55 AM

Has anyone heard of Church? It comes in many forms and religions. Do parents in Ontario take their children to these religious edifaces so they can be taught the teachings of their "God"? Why must a school provide religious teachings? Is this to take the burden off of parents who are too busy to go to church or take their children to Youth meetings?

Why is it that the public school system must bail out the "religious" schools with students who have learning disabilities, students who have been expelled, as well as accept a wide culture of multi faith and multi cultural admissions?

It is time this country wakes up and smells the roses to give a proper education to our children and leave the religious teachings to the parents and clergy.

Our children have many good friends of different religious backgrounds and they have been enriched with their culture as they have with ours. At least I know my children will not be ignorant nor closed minded as adults .
Church and State should be separate.

Posted September 18, 2007 11:47 AM

Faith is a personal choice and has no place in a publicly-funded education system. Faith-based 'education' is simply a means of perpetuating differences between Canadians and is divisive. End it now - nation-wide.

Posted September 18, 2007 11:46 AM

Religion should be taught in the privacy of the home, not in a public funded school system. John Tory's idea of a multi faith funded system will be a nightmare to administrate, and will be very costly as well. We cannot afford this, when we cannot even afford to bring our aging infrastructure up to date.

Posted September 18, 2007 11:34 AM

"No taxation without representation". Whether people think separate schools are right or wrong is not the point. The fact that Ontarians pay property tax and a portion goes to fund school is enough to allow separate schools.

The real issue is how many students must a school have to be viable and of course the teachers as well as the curriculum must meet provincial standards.

Posted September 18, 2007 11:17 AM

Everyone wake up!

Ask Mr. Tory and ask yourself... HOW will this funding occur?

If he has such a grand vision then one would also hope that he has a plan that extends beyond a way to drum-up extra headline time.

Will the already neglected public system become the further victim of funding parasitization?

Posted September 18, 2007 09:27 AM

One of the worst ideas of a campaign. Certainly won't get our vote. It is almost as bad as the past and aborted proposal to adopt Sharia law for a segment of society.

Religious schools will be more devisive, they may foster more misunderstanding and intolerance. Rather then assimilating with mainstream life, some children may even feel more apart from it.

Teaching faith based ideas should be the priviledge of parents and religious institutions. If parents wish to put their children into faith based schools, let them pay for it and we should not be obliged to publicly fund these schools. Let's not weaken education and the public school system.

Re the issue of publicly funding Catholic schools,fair or not (I am not Catholic and am also an immigrant). It has existed for so long now that it can be considered grandfather in. If it should become a major issue, the best alternative is one public school system.

Faith based schools and multiculturalism are an allowed priviledge, not a right.

Posted September 18, 2007 09:25 AM

Granted the Catholic schools have been around for along time, so have some other things not so benign. We live and learn and it's time they ,( Catholic schools), stand without public money or,,,

In no way should we open up the public purse for more faith-based schools, that purse is not bottomless, and who will decide which schools will qualify for funding ?

Canada is about all comers living together, sharing this country, to do that we must meet our neighbours, our children should all mix in the public system, that way we might better find peace. Not in separate schoolyards.

Posted September 18, 2007 08:30 AM

We should include everyone by having one publicly-funded system. No publicly-funded faith-based schools.

However, I would also support a mandatory and multi-faith curriculum about (not "in") religion along the lines recommended in the Watson report over a decade ago.

We do not provide an accurate understanding of society if we pretend religion does not exist and does not have an impact both positive and negative on social issues.

Posted September 17, 2007 04:55 PM

I think its ridiculous that Catholics get funding and other religions don't. People send their kids to religious schools not to teach their kids proper morals on how to live your life that is simply not taught at public schools. I think that parents who send their kids to religious schools should pay the difference between what public schools get and the costs necessary to pay for their religious lessons.

Posted September 17, 2007 03:23 PM

I think funding faith based schools is not a good idea. Doing it for the catholics isn't as bad since it is a large religion with members off all races. This isn't true of Muslims, Jews, Hindus. Segragation is not a good idea in the long run. I also don't want to pay extra taxes for the rich being one of the 95% who use public schools. This is an important issue for me. I will vote Liberal or NDP despite being a member of the PC Party this time.

I would also like to have Catholic schools allow non-Catholics attend them. I have many relatives that attend catholic schools even though they are hindus. They lie about their religion to get admission to the school. This is a violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Posted September 17, 2007 01:31 PM

I agree most with that faith based schools should not be funded by the state. Seperation of church and state is important because I do not believe that my money should go toward funding someone elses faith. Everyone is equal. The only way to keep things equal is to have a system that does not harbour these kinds of beliefs.

Posted September 17, 2007 11:32 AM

In my opinion, the funding of Faith Based Schools in principle can lead to two very undemocratic principles.

The first being the separation of church and state. I have no desire to see any of our hard won democratic institutions be compromised by any religious dogma. T

he second and probably more important principle in danger is the reduction of importance and value of our current excellent public education system.

Posted September 17, 2007 10:34 AM

Curious thing - I just watched a Liberal Party commercial in which Mr McGuinty praises the befefits of "public education" and expresses how much "public education" is of value because it is "public". Nowhere does he indicate or even hint that we have a Catholic funded system in place. Is he now indicating that should he be elected the "public" system will be his priority? Whither goes the Catholic system? We currently have "public" and "separate" boards --- Mr McGuinty only seems interested in promoting, supporting, and praising "public". Now who has the hidden agenda?

Posted September 16, 2007 09:15 PM

In a world that seems to be growing more divisive day by day I do not believe in public funding for faith based education.

A just society depends on having a population that is aware of and respectfull of differences. For this to happen we need meaningful interaction between people of different faiths. Where better to provide those opportunities than in our public schools.

Faith should be taught at home and in the churches, mosques, synagogues and other places of worship. Parents have a strong influence over their children’s morals and values. However parents must remember that they are only guardians of their children. Children must have the knowledge and experience necessary to make up their own minds, otherwise how will we ever overcome some of the sins of the past that cause so much turmoil in our world today.

Posted September 16, 2007 09:06 AM

There should be no funding for any faith based schools including the catholic church.

Posted September 15, 2007 05:13 PM

What is good for a Catholic Premier is good for a non-Catholic citizen. Why can the Premier of this province send his children to a publicly-funded religious school and I, a non-Catholic, cannot send my children to a publicly-funded religious school of my choice.

It is ludicrous to have such religious discrimination in 2007. Furthermore, the effect in the other provinces where faith schools are publicly funded has not been negative and those societies and public school systems are thriving just as much as in Ontario.

Posted September 15, 2007 04:40 PM

Put all the money into the public system, pay the teachers for their prep times, shorten the summer holiday... get these kids educated for the future of our society. Start teaching life skills, civics, social norms and behaviour.

Stop assuming every kid needs to go to college and teach the kids what they need to survive life... taxes, debt, time & money management, basic legal rights and responsibilities, etc. Add cooking, laundry, shopping (math skills for calculating bargains)... French and English, reading, how to fill out a job application, write a resume... and on and on...

Posted September 15, 2007 01:31 AM

Several issues have not been adequately addressed in this debate over government support of faith based education. Suppose it does become a reality. There will be an influx of students into those schools whose parents felt they could not afford that type of education. The facilities of these schools will quickly be overflowing. Who will pay to enlarge the buildings of these schools? Probably the tax payers. There was a cloudburst of Catholic high schools built after they received full funding (all at tax payers expense) and I see no reason why it would be different for the current issue.

The second question is will faith based schools accept students from other faith backgrounds or from no faith? They should do so if they are supported by government funds.

The third issue is what will they do with students who cause excessive disciplinary problems. It is scarcely fair to expect the public system to take those students back. The public system cannot refuse a student regardless of negative issues that could arise. The same should be true for any school supported by the government.

If faith based schools accept government funds, will they be required to hire teachers regardless of religious affiliation or no affiliation? Fairness would imply that they must.

Had the Ontario government dealt with these issues more carefully when granting full funding to the Catholic system in the 1980s, we might not be faced with these issues today.

Posted September 14, 2007 08:54 PM

I am a parent who has supported our local Christian schools for many years. All our four children are/or were educated in them. We believe in Christ-centred education, that He is in all of life. This is taught in the Christian schools. We made this choice for our children to have them educated in a faith based school(s) that supports our Christian values.

Mr. McGinty can 'say' he supports the public system and believes in the public system in Ontario, but actions speak so much louder than words. He himself was taught in the Catholic system, his children are taught in the Catholic system, and his wife teaches in the Catholic system.

Catholic schools are faith-based schools. They are paid for by the Government of Ontario, through our taxes. Why is this any different than the faith-based schools we support and do not get funded by the Ontario Government?

I just want to be an equally funded citizen of Ontario, who pays the same taxes to support the public or catholic systems, and yet does not receive a dime for the education we as parents choose for our children, children some now grown and also productive tax paying citizens of Ontario. Where is the justice in all of this?

Posted September 14, 2007 03:58 PM

I agree with Mr. Tory on this issue. This is coming from someone who went to a catholic school for elementary and high school. The fact that people who are catholic get their own school board and people who are not have no choice is unfair.

Furthermore, the stance that Mr. McGuinty is taking with respect to the fact he thinks that funding faith based schools would be a form of segregation completly ignores the fact that Ontario funds Catholic school boards. In response to the question of why do you still fund Catholic based school boards, Mr McGuinty answers because thats the ways is has always been. I would prefer a premier that attempts to fix unbalances as opposed to one who has the attitude of "thats the way is has always been, so no need to change it"

Posted September 14, 2007 03:23 PM

I agree fully with the Green Party's proposal to eliminate faith-based education altogether.

That said, I respect our country's history and could live with an ongoing distinct Catholic system if I absolutely had to, but given today's more multi-ethnic and multi-religious society, it may be prime time to look to a new way of doing things.

A course exploring world religions and spiritualities would be much more useful, particularly in our globalized world. It may actually reveal how much more we are alike.

In this post 9/11 world in which we are being taught at every turn to fear and be suspicious of "the other", I believe being together has never been more important!

There IS a reason for which a great number of Canadians born in the 70s can't fathom a world in which women are not considered equal to men, in which we try to treat all religious expression equally despite how distinct each is from the other, in which we are curious and celebrate equally the distinctions that make each culture in the Canadian mosaïc unique, etc.: The public school system!

When you have to sit side-by-side with "the other" day in and day out, it gets more and more difficult to "hate" them just because a politician, spiritual leader, or parent told you to do so!

I'm not a big fan of his, but McGuinty's 100% correct on this one.

Posted September 14, 2007 02:36 PM

It could be that John Tory is correct and funding should be extended. The problem I have with hs position is that he says he will extend funding but not how. I am pleased that Mr. Davis will be asked to study the issue but he should be asked to study "if" funding can be extended and what the impacts will be -- not just in dollars. If the Tories have $400,000,000 for this where did they find it and what services will they cut.

While I think the Premier's retoric is a bit over the top he is right to be concerned about the impacts of this proposal.

It is fair enough to say that Mr. Tory is not Mike Harris but there are a lot of Harris Tories who would be in a Tory cabinet. We all remember the disaster the Tory "improvements" were to Ontario's public education system.

If the election is about leadership why not annouce you will study the idea of funding and make a decision after an appropriate level of public consultation. If as Mr. Tory says his plan is about inclusion rather than exculsion let's include all of us in the decision not annouce it as a done deal.

Posted September 14, 2007 02:09 PM

We home schooled as much as we could, then placed them in private education till grade 12- I would have eaten peanut butter to keep them there.

They all had excellent marks and not raised as socialist. They have been raised to be leaders and managers in their own right. They will all be employers.

My children buy things with cash. At 22 my son owns property and is a land lord to very happy tenants, One son is in 2nd year university of Windsor and I have a daughter in her freshman year of college.

We didn't want the money from the province. it comes with to many hooks.

Tories MP's will not back this. to be sure. It will die in the legislature. if the press didn't pick this up they haven't been listening. although they rarely get anything accurate.

Posted September 14, 2007 12:21 PM

I've been thinking a lot about this issue as of late and I'm somewhat stuck on which way I should support. On one hand I believe that spirituality and religion is important in our society and should be taught in schools and on the other I don't think segregation is right.

I think that perhaps we should only have one school system and teach religion at the high school level. I don't know for sure, as I went to public school, but I think this is what the Catholics are doing right now.

So I say we, if it's possible, we merge the schools and teach all our children about faith and world religions.

Posted September 14, 2007 11:54 AM

Dalton McGuinty is right when it comes to education. Schools should be multi-cultural to encourage students to be open-minded about other cultures of the world. John Torys plan sends shivers down my spine. Not only would it segregate religions, it would involve taking $500 million out of schools which are already being funded, It would also hurt our education system. Education is an important part of our society and should not be tampered with.

Posted September 14, 2007 10:18 AM

If the government is willing to fund faith-based private schools, than it should also fund non-denominational private schools.

It seems to make more economic sense however to convert Catholic schools to the regular public system and the principles of different religions including humanist theory should be taught at different levels in elementary schools.

The more funding provided to private faith-based schools may result in more Canadian children enrolling in these systems. As a result, children will be less exposed to other religions and cultures within Canada. In addition, controversial topics including abortion and same-sex marriage will either not be taught or taught with preconceived notions.

Posted September 14, 2007 09:33 AM

I always like to deal with reality - unless the Green Party is elected to run the province, those who wish a single system are not going to achieve that objective at this time.

Reality dictates that we have two options in this upcoming election and we need to decide which one to choose. The current system where one religion receives full funding and all others do not is unquestionably discriminatory. That we got here because of decisions decades (or a century plus years) ago is not a factor for me.

What I am thinking about is - What are we going to do about it today and tomorrow? People do not exist to conform to the dictates of a government policy. Government policy exists to support and sustain people. Somehow with our education system, and this debate, we lost site of that.

The people involved with religious education are being told that their views as citizens are unimportant; here is the school system, designed over the last 140 years - like it or get out. That is just wrong.

Why is expanding our system, opening it to differing views and allowing citizens to obtain a service from the government equal to other members of society wrong. These are people. These are parents and children who have cares and concerns and hopes and dreams and fears and triumphs. I don't believe allowing them to share in a public education system that welcomes their beliefs and strives to support them in the raising of their children will destroy public education.

I understand and respect the argument for one system and I understand and respect the desire for an inclusive faith based system. I do not undersatnd and am struggling to respect a view that says funding Catholic schools is just fine but the other religions are not worthy of our support.

Posted September 14, 2007 12:53 AM

Having faith-based schools is in my opinion, inefficient and a wasteful segregation. If parents wish their children to be educated in a religion, they may do so at home.

Also, funding all faith based schools opens up a new can of worms based on what a "faith-based school" actually is, and we'll have to cater to increasing amounts of such schools. The simplest solution is one system.

Posted September 13, 2007 10:45 PM

I wish people would remember that those who send their kids to religious schools are also tax paying Ontarians.

Our taxes have benefitted students in public school and Catholic schools for years. Having said that, I also realize that this is my choice and I only ask that you respect that choice, not that you pay for it.

The school I support most certainly follows the Ontario curriculum and has exceeded any standards either the Liberals or previous Tories have been able to establish in the public system. The students also learn religious values and about God (which includes loving, not hating, others)

We are not asking for tax money, because frankly, there would be too many strings. Thanks, but no thanks.

Posted September 13, 2007 10:03 PM

A clear seperation is required between church and state. This includes subsidized education.

Youth are an especially vulnerable and impressionable segment of the general population. This can be considered an asset in that the opportunity to promote strong moral values is significant. This is already well taken advantage of by church organizations through various youth oriented activities.

However, my concern is that the agenda of most religous organizations is seldomly supported by science. The obvious example of creationism versus evolution first comes to mind. Although curriculum may be set by the province, I have little doubt this would be easily manipulated by religious organizations to promote their own doctrinal beliefs. In essence, this therefore robs students of their right to a proper education.

Public schools provide more opportunity for youth to learn about other cultures and religions outside of the classroom. The promotion of religous doctrine to youth should be left to churches, mosques, synagogues, and in the home in which they're brought up. The state has no business financially supporting religious doctrine. Faith based schools should not be funded in any way by any level of government.

Posted September 13, 2007 09:36 PM

Personally, I think we should do away with all faith-based school funding. I think that either we fund all faith-based schools or we don't and so in my view I personally believe that catholic schools should receive any funds. And I am flat out opposed to this idea that John Tory has put forward.

Posted September 13, 2007 03:39 PM

There should only be a single publicly funded school board. Religion should not be funded by the state.

Posted September 13, 2007 02:51 PM

Ontario should have one public system only, and get rid of the Catholic system. This could save alot of money in duplication, which could be further invested into the public system.

If parents want to send their kids to a religious school (or any private school), then they should be allowed to direct their education taxes to that school and pay the difference out of their own pockets. These schools should also have to meet ministry guidelines and teach the provincial cirruculum, and teach in English or French.

Unions don't like this kind of voucher system, but this will give parents a choice, especially since teachers in the public schools can shut the system down whenever they don't get their way.

Posted September 13, 2007 02:51 PM