Your Letters on the News
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Spanked kids returned to
parents
Your responses:
I find it very ironic that the same people who tell us we can't spank or physically punish our children are now saying parents are responsible for the crimes these spoiled brats are committing. So, we can't punish them but we have to pay for what they do. If I am responsible for my childrens' actions, then I have the only say on how they're punished. The law may not, in my mind, have it both ways.
Brenda Hindson,
Oakridge
I just want to express my agreement with the current criminal ruling that parents may spank their children in a reasonable and responsible way. Common sense tells me that it must remain as one tool, albeit often as a last resort, to help promote acceptable behavior in families and, subsequently, in our beloved country.
Jocelyn Cameron,
Chester Basin, N.S
I am in complete sympathy with the Mennonite family in Ontario that is being "spanked" by the Canadian justice system for using physical force to discipline their children. As long as the parents are not abusing the right to spank, they have a God-given authority to impose corporal punishment on their children that the courts simply do not have the right to remove.
I find it completely and utterly reprehensible that these poor children were torn away from the loving arms of their parents in order for the courts to impose their own form of morality on these law-abiding, highly religious citizens. The Constitution of Canada allows for a reasonable amount of force when disciplining children; therefore, the authorities in this case are clearly acting outside of their jurisdiction. This action by the court is an impingement upon the freedom of religion that is supposedly espoused by the Charter of Rights. Mennonites, as well as many other Christian groups, believe that the Bible gives them authority to spank their children. Besides, other "kinder, gentler" forms of punishment, such as warnings, time-outs, and discussions about the difference between right and wrong, do not always work for children, who do not have fully formed communication abilities, and may not respond to reason. Spanking is simply an effective form of punishment, and is seen by Mennonites as a form of love: most Mennonites are parents who discipline their children and set limits for them because they love them, just like all other parents.
So, why is this religious belief being challenged? Christianity and its practices are persistently singled out for attack by the media and by the justice system. For example, a government assault on methods of parenting is less likely to occur among aboriginal groups, or Islamic groups, or other minorities (although I am certainly not suggesting that there are no Christians among aboriginals or other minority groups!). Christianity and its tenets are persecuted, but why? And for what effect? I do not know why, nor can I offer an answer. True Christians do nothing except act as moral citizens. Spanking is a way to ensure that children grow up knowing right from wrong, thus creating these moral citizens. Why is this belief in effective punishment attacked by the government? Instead, why not crack down on those parents who truly abuse their children by beating them and starving them, instead of harassing those parents who care enough about their children to set limits on their behaviour? The government and the media simply must learn to respect the religious beliefs of all Canadian citizens, and trust that spanking is done partly to ensure a supply of future upstanding Canadians.
Perhaps a personal story will illustrate my point for those who disagree with my perspective on spanking. I am a young, educated, Mennonite woman who was spanked as a child when I disobeyed my parents. They always spanked me out of love because they wished to teach me right from wrong. I feel that this was an effective way of raising me, because I grew up to be a moral human being and a good citizen. I do not feel as though I was abused in any way. In fact, my husband and I are planning to raise our children by the same methods in which we were raised: we will love them enough to spank them when they need it. And I challenge anyone to interfere with this tried-and-true way of parenting.
Pamela Klassen-Dueck,
Winnipeg
After reading the Church of God children are going home to Aylmer, I was left in awe at this groups hypocrisy and glaring lack of Christian faith in the notion that violence of any sort should be avoided, when teaching children right from wrong. Using an instrument to inflict harm upon another is clearly defined by society as an act of aggression, and not in keeping with the spirit of the passages in the Bible that Reverend Henry Hildebrandt, and many of his
followers, quote as rigid religious law.
To take such passages literally shows Reverend Hildebrandt and his "Church of God" followers have a shallow understanding of their faith, and seem willing to condone violence. Using these passages as written permission from their "God" to do harm to another is a sin more telling than most they self-righteously assess to others outside their cloistered organization.
The spirit of God I grew up with and hold in my heart is not a God that allows this to be an action taken by loving Christians. Rhetorical religious statements such as an "eye for an eye" are meant to show there is always a cause and effect if not in spirit and reality.
With a little Christian creativity Reverend Hildebrandt and his flock should find a more acceptable way to show their unruly and rebellious children how to behave.
Would Reverend Vogel condone my actions if I where to do as he approves and whip my disabled boy Logan with a stick or wooden spoon because he committed some grave sin or misbehaved? The though of committing such an act should be repulsive to society, and rightly so. What works and has a lasting learning effect for Logan, is relegating him to quiet time, to reflect in isolation for a while. My wife and I stay with him but do not talk to him until some time for soul searching has elapsed. We then discuss it with Logan openly. We always hug him to reinforce our love and understanding. What would be the difference between Logan and any other able bodied child when it comes to parents and societies obligation to protect them from harm?
Respectfully yours,
Mark Alan Whittle
Hamilton, ON
I would suggest that more parents need to discipline their children, with love, care, and, when and if required, spankings. This kind of discipline, on a reasonable level, does not result in children growing into violent and alienated adults. These children know their parents care enough about them to try to instill reasonable social awareness and behaviours, in an attempt to fashion responsible, reasoning adults who will fit into mainstream society, whatever their background or religious affiliation.
Too many parents now subscribe to the theory that gentle chiding will suffice, when quite clearly often it will not, nor will other types of discipline, such as temporarily depriving children of favoured toys or activities, although it may for some, placid-tempered children.
Too many parents in this era, are too busy amassing material possessions to be bothered with the physical and social welfare of their children and find it simpler to overlook behaviour which requires disciplining.
Those parents who are loving and responsible and who would never imagine themselves as anything but, but who employ reasonable physical discipline are using a tried and true method with their children and they should not live in fear of social censure, and worse, the removal of their children from their care.
Social services surely has more than sufficient work on their hands removing obviously abused children from inadequate and dysfunctional homes.
Rita Rosenfeld
Ottawa
My parents have been churchgoers since I was a little child. And they too, like the parents in the article, believed in corporal punishment as a means of discipline.
However, they only used it as a last resort to get my attention. It was never their first choice. In fact, I doubt very seriously, if it really was even a choice of theirs. I think that I was too stubborn sometimes and that was the only way they could get the point across that what I was doing was wrong.
I do believe that spanking has its place in society. Yes, my parents spanked me and I turned out pretty good. My parents loved me enough to spank me as a last resort.
They took an interest in what I did. It didn't matter if it was wrong or right.
However, in today's society, parents who do take an interest in what their children are doing are the ones who get punished. But the parents who don't know and don't care where their 12 year sons or daughters are really the ones who need to be brought up on charges of child abuse.
It is no wonder why there are so many missing children in this country. It is no wonder why there are so many children committing crimes that are punishable by life in prison. It is no wonder why so many children loss their lives because they joined a gang.
Parents who don't take an active interest in their children's well-being wonder why their children don't respect them.
That is because, I believe, that they were too chicken to put their foot down and play the mother or father and say this is the way you should behave. Instead, they try to be "friends" first and parents second.
I am sorry but it doesn't work that way. When you have children, you are responsible for their actions until they are of the age majority. Therefore, you have to teach them when they are young to have respect for their parents, for others, and more importantly, for themselves.
And, sometimes, it requires corporal (spanking) punishment.
I thank my parents for doing that. I didn't then, but I do now. I thank them that they took the time out of their lives to take an interest in me and what activities I was getting involved in. If they hadn't, I don't know where I would be.
Doug Scarrow,
Burnaby, BC
Spanking never killed anyone, but all this touchy feely garbage that psychologists reccommend has! Children need to know their limits and they need to know there are consequences to bad behaviour. Saying "No" to a child is harder than saying "yes" as I have learned over the last 19 years of parenting.
My children know who the parents are in our family and who the children are! There are rules and there are consequences to breaking the rules. With each child, the rules sometimes have to change because not all children respond in the same way to certain disciplines.
Instead of trying to be a child's buddy, parents have to be just that, the child's parent.
Spanking certainly is not warranted in all cases, but sometimes it is the only way to get a message across. I see children all the time in schools, malls and other public areas and all I can say is a little spanking would benefit society!
And personally, I think we should start with psychologists who believe that you can talk to a year old child and they understand that they have broken the rules. Yeah! Right! They should deal with the consequences of their stupid advice by being put in a room with these products of the great experiment of permissiveness!
My children were spanked when the situation was warranted and never spanked when my husband and I were angry. They were usually sent to their rooms while we sat down and had some time-out to cool down. Then they were spanked on the bottom and no more than three times.
Neither of my children are violent sadistic or cruel in any way like many of their peers who think it's alright to kick an animal or be a bully to smaller children! I never allowed myself to be influenced by those who write about raising kids! Too bad more parents were!!!
Lydia Ross
Miramichi.N.B.
The recent removal of the children because of spanking highlights the importance of foster homes. There were reports that the foster homes that received the children where sub-standard. Reports say that smoking and drinking were common and that the children's religious beliefs were mocked.
I am aware of other foster parents who have similar substandard care. I know of couples who take foster children into their care only because of the money received from Child and Family Services. Many Aboriginal children suffer from poor foster care and neglect.
These children should not have been taken away from their parents. The Complaint should be filed in the courts. Let a family Judge decide what is right and good for the children in question. Child and Family Services is out of bounds by removing the children from their homes.
Yours Truly,
Jason Robbins
Winnipeg Manitoba
We do not believe that the government should be able to restrict parents, who would like to raise their children in a loving and responsible home. It is important for children to know they are loved, and part of showing love is to discipline them. This does not mean in outrage, but in a loving way. Spanking done in the right way (not in anger) does not hurt the child. We believe one of the problems today is not 'child abuse,' as much as 'parental abuse.' Children know their 'rights' and some of them 'lord' it over their parents, and parents are under much pressure. We need to help parents in this day, to be parents. I sure hope we will not have to have our children's children, raised in a 'no' discipline society. This would be a society of ruin, may God help us.
Thank-you.
J&M Nunn,
Salmon Arm B.C.
Children are the only group in society who can be legally assaulted! It should be a crime to use corporal punishment on our children, they are helpless victims. The message we give to them, is that it is acceptable to use physical force to solve problems. Emotional and mental abuse, is another hugely damaging kind of violence, and very overlooked.
Anne Wilson
Kingston Ontario
Spanking is not a method to discipline children. It is ABUSE and adults need to be charged under the law that protects our children. Being parents does not give them the right to use corporal punishment. Our prisons are full of people who were abused as children.
Mary Frances O'Hagan
Elgin County
So the state is now telling parents how to raise their children. That was exactly what Germany did under Hitler!! It is - of course - wrong. There is nothing wrong with some form of physical discipline. (But not abuse) The judge is a complete dummy!
Raymond Brauninger
Hamilton, Ontario
This couple and their children are being subject to the most horrendous cruelty imaginable! I am outraged over this!The CAS has stepped way over the line! They are trying to play the role of God! Who are they to decide what's best for everyone's children when it comes to discipline? Parents are going through hell these days trying to raise kids and these clowns at the CAS think they can tell parents how to do it better by abducting their children!!! UNBELIEVEABLE!
Are the authorities in this case now going to arrest every parent that has ever left a welt on their child's behind!? If so, there'd be no cells big enough to contain them all and no one to take their children in the meantime. Meanwhile, these children have to suffer the trauma of being attacked and abducted by a bunch of rash, ignorant, insensitive, and obviously inexperienced thugs the government calls "social workers". God help us!
Chris Curry
Ottawa, Ontario
It is with an amount of shock that I have followed the debate on spanking children. To read that fundamentalist groups are fighting for the right to levy physical abuse on children is indeed shocking. To draw from religion as a means to justify such actions is reprehensible. To read in your story that the Canadian Teachers Federation draws somewhat the same conclusions is alarming to say the least.
This group of educated professionals have no excuse for this kind of narrow-minded approach to the treatment of children. I certainly would have expected more from those who educate our children.
As the director of a child welfare group we deal every day with the fallout of children from homes where abuse is present. Often the lines are very blurred in people's minds on what is reasonable when it comes to corporal punishment.
It is a sad lesson for our children to learn that violence is an acceptable means to resolve disputes. This is 2001 and I had hoped we had moved beyond such draconian practices.
Tom Lalonde,
Vancouver, B.C.
I think it's disgusting to support any act of violence ESPECIALLY towards children. Everyone is entitled to believe in his/her own way of raising a child. But today, when we are supposed to know better, people resort to physical punishment as a means of discipline? There is something truly sad about that. The only thing you teach a child when you hit him/her is that it's ok to hit! That child also learns to FEAR you...not RESPECT. Aren't children simply small adults with little life experience?
God help them...God help them...
T.Macneil
Cape Breton, Halifax
Not knowing the full extent of the spanking, there is a fine line that must be walked with this ruling. The use of weapons in my mind is plain unfair to the children. It's like a fight where one individual brings a gun and the other brings a knife.
On the other hand the children seem to be happy, and from what I read put up quite a fight when taken from the parents. Once again the government is sticking their nose where it doesn't belong!
I recently went through the adoption process where you are put under a magnifying glass. I revealed that I had spanked my daughter once in five years & thus cost me the adoption.
Without a spanking, respect is lost, no love is gained in the long run. I do not advocate frequent spankings, but too many parents have abandoned this simple discipline and thus our society is suffering from children that suffering form lack of love & discipline...they go hand in hand.
My daughter is one of the most loving & respectful children you will find...I put in the work now so when she hits 13,14, or 15yrs she will know how to respect, right from wrong & have the confidence to lead with those ideals.
Earle Nichol
Calgary, A.B.
It's high time that children were treated as persons, rather than property.
No one in this country should have to live in a violent environment. Good for the Children's Aid!
Michael Newman
Scarborough, Ontario
As one who is desirous of taking God at His word, I believe that the further we move away from His standards, and compromise our actions and attitudes, we as a nation are witnessing the deterioration of our families and homes. It goes much further than an issue dealing with 'spanking'. What's more important is the attitude in which the corrective action is being done with. If the actions are not given with 'love' being the motivator, then the 'rod' shouldn't be exercised. One must be in control and desirous of only the best interests of the receiver.
And as my parents would tell me, "this will hurt me more than it'll hurt you", at that time I didn't understand. But the more that love becomes the motivation, the more the one in leadership hurts when discipline is necessary.
We need to ask ourselves, "Am I being abusive to the next generation by compromising my morals and attitudes"? Our entertainment values are an example of that simple fact.
Ten years ago, we would never allow what we see on our televisions, today. What is our motive? What causes us to do the things we do? If "spanking" needs to be done, then as God's word says, love must be the motivation, and not anger or rage. We will see a healing come to our nation as we learn to literally take God by His Word, and it starts in the family.
Don Barker
Kitimat
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