Washington File

I am not from the High tech industry or Aerospace at that, but simply a concerned Canadian citizen who just recently took the Avro Arrow subject into heart. I have worked alongside our CF-18 fighter jets for a few years when still in the Armed Forces, as well as other aircrafts from other NATO countries. Seeing all of the different configurations every now and then, made you appreciate technology and what it could potentially do and was capable of. When I first heard of the Avro Arrow aircraft and what had happened to it made me sick to my stomach. Most importantly, the excuse given from Diefenbaker that Canada is not about to become an offensive entity but a defensive one. That just sounded very cowardly. Unless he got pressured by the US to back off or else. What i'm trying to say is that it has been over 50 years since its cancellation and it would be nice to extract all documents relevant to its disappearance with facts as it has been over 50 years as mentionned earlier and the "Access to Information Act" should allow this. Understandibly, some of its content might me blackened but it would be nice to have all the information released to the public and locate 1 servicable prototype somewhere hidden in Canada and make it fly once a year on Canada day, first in Ottawa and subsequently every Province's Capital every other Canada Day. Just to remind Canadians that we built this plane.
Food for thought.
Note: I heard that 1 prototype had been hiding somewhere in a bunker in Coldlake Alberta back in the late 50's. ???

I never forgot watching the Arrow fly either. I worked as a typist on the design floor at the time. I never forgave the Diefenbaker Tory government for being short-sighted. What seemed like a lot of money then looks pretty darned good now as money always does over time. We not only gave up first place in the aircraft industry we forced the brains and the know-how to go south of the border.

The parallel then as now of the Conservatives selling Canada short in order to be pals with a government that thinks of us as a country to be brushed aside once they have exploited us.

Are we too dumb to see past the smiles and handshakes? Every time Canada is poised to take a lead in the world along comes another Tory government ready to kill any such effort.

It is the Canadian Way.
I dont know what the statistics are now, but in the sixties when I attended classes -Econ 101, Canadians were lending their money to the Americans at a low secured interest rate so that the latter can invest that same money in Canada for a higher rate of return and buy out Canadian businesses.
The attitude has not changed.
Even today when Canadian businesses reach a certain level, it is eventually sold to a foreign company, so that the owners can cash in and go to spend their money in Hawaii.
The level of success ceiling for Canadians is lower than that of foreigners. If a Canadian had owned Microsoft, he would have sold out after making the first XT computer.
The same for the Government.
In contrast, China, just a few years ago, had severe economic problems. Today, they are competing very well with the world, including USA.
In a few years time they will be the No 1 auto producer.
They flood America and the world with their goods
Lend money to the so called progressive countries so they can sustain the 3 vehicle suburban families and wage war.
Now they can take down satellites. Is this bad or good. I think it will help to stabilize the world. Bush now has to rethink his star wars plans and come up with another strategy on how to control the world.
Brazil, for instance, in the last few years, is bidding on European and North American companies. They produce a very popular aircraft which is competing in the International market. Brazil is now an industrial powerhouse. They have come a long way in the last 20 years.
India and Pakistan, have in the past 25 years, risen above famine and hunger via industry and use of human resources wisely.
These and many other countries did not achieve their successes by increasing immigration as a form of boosting market numbers, thereby forcing growth.
Canada has lost a lot of ground in the last 25 years.

When will the irrational complaining about the AVRO Arrow end. It was a huge, grossly expensive, impractical vehicle. Had it gone ahead into full production it would have been rendered impotent within a few short years. It served no purpose whatever for Canadian aviation requirements, which should lead everyone in this country to ask 'Why was the Arrow project started at all?' For my part, I would also like to know who sold it to us and how.
As for the topic at hand, why are Canadian companies so timid in raising the capital themselves? They certainly have been given enough government grants and loans. I believe the goal ultimately was that they could stand on their own...or was it?

WOW, step back for a second and think about where Harper hails from and where the money would be spent ...
this is not rocket science (pun intended),
the decision to bail on this looks to be economic retaliation against the east for years of funding neglect in the west.
I have an idea .. instead investing in the future of Canadians lets send our poster boy to Afghanistan with 1,500 police jackets and 2,500 pairs of winter gloves and 10 million dollars to help them lose a war for the drugs that has been raging since the British pulled out at the turn of the century, (sorry Peter, you mean well). Lay siege to the opium fields instead of the population would be a better use of the funds and better for the "Global population". 3 Billion per year production vs 1 Billion (over 10 years). This is not a war that will be won on standard terms.

I was living in Toronto in 1958 and
I too saw the Arrow fly. What a
beautiful plane! The test flight
Arrow aircraft did not have the
engine that was designed for it, the
'Iroquois' engine. If only it could
have flown as it was designed to do, with the engine that it was
especially designed for it.
I can maybe understand a possible
reason for either delaying or even
a cancellation of the project.
However, I will never understand
why the completed aircraft were
all destroyed immediately and all
the plans were deliberately destroyed so that no such plane
could ever be built in Canada again.
We were in the middle of a "Cold
War" with a plane that was probably
much better than any that our potential enemies had. These plans and planes were already paid for
by the Canadian taxpayers. What
a waste and a disgrace. It was
a criminal act for which no one was ever even charged. May of us have
never trusted politicians since and probably never will again.
I joined the Royal Canadian Air
Force that same year,1958. I soon
found out that what I thought about
the Arrow project cancellation and
the subsequent mistrust of all politicians was also prevalent
throughout the whole force. I
spent twenty-two years in the RCAF
and my opinion never changed, nor
did I ever see any change in anyone
elses.
To make matters worse, the same
government that cancelled the Arrow project because of its high cost,
immediately went shopping for new
planes and spent three times as much
money to buy an inferior product.
Lesson learned??? Never believe
what politicians say, only what they
do.

Joe, you need to stop drinking from the magic Conservative fountain. The Conservatives arent that far from the Harper PC's of Ontario not that far back. First stage, cut all the previous government's incentives and blame everything from world conflict to a leaky tap on them. Second stage, cut apart the infrastructure under the misnomer of accountability or worse yet: common sense. Third, tell everyone that everything is peachy till you lose support and the successive government gets caught holding your bag. I dont support the Libs or the NDP but Im definitely not buying that "Canada's New Government" is any different than Canada's current government.

There's an old saying in the UK Joe: "No matter who I vote for the government seems to keep getting elected". Stephen Harper is not some luminary humanitarian we elected to heal the world's ills, he's a ruthless autocrat that views Canada from behind the guild of an abacus. You and I are dollar values at the best, statistics at the worst and its been decades since a politician spoke for me and hopefully one of them will actually clue in and do what they were elected for: representing their constituents, not their idealogical belief.

Pehaps Mr. Harpers vision is not so short after all. There is still a lot of important issues to fix at the ground level first on this planet such as starving people and the future effects of warming and disease to name just a few.Canada needs to take a greater part in this .What benefit has space travel had on equalizing the wealth on earth or releiving suffering of the poor besides those who get rich on over priced government sponsored technoprojects.Let your vision be world embracing.

Another example of small government for small minds. Where's the vision in this country? I'm ashamed of our inability as a people to elect leadership that can see beyond its own nose.

I also saw the Arrow as a child, living outside of Brampton. I'm still ashamed of the Conservative government's actions. But it was not a fighter - it was an Interceptor, designed for a supersonic trip to the arctic to shoot down Russion bombers.

your right, interceptor it was...but a great sight!
h

this move by our government is typical of our political elite, they have no vision.

Harper is once again showing his Reform roots in knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

Don MacKenzie

I normally do not respone directly to posters to a blog but in this case I would like to say Thank You. back in September when I pointed out Canada's lack of will when it came space, I was told I was wrong.So I'm here to say I TOLD YOU SO! LOL. ;-) But seriously I hope Canada will do more in the future and bring the UK along with them. If not NASA has openings so do Boeing and Lockheed Martin that smart Canadains can fill. You can even come here to Baltimore and work on the Hubble Space telescope and support the CAPS....Game On!

As a life long Tory I am extremely disappointed with what is clearly a very bad decison on this issue. Canada has worked hard to establish an excellent reputation in this field that is both a great source of pride to Candians and has reaped huge economic benifits for Canadian industry. To now be thrown away by one very bad decision is a national disgrace.The fact that the CSA has been without a Pres for a year is also troubling and another indicator that this dept is not being well lead. Perhaps the PM needs to make a change in leadership here. He certainly needs to reverse this decision now before it is to late!

The entire Arrow thing was swept under the carpet so well that I did not even know about it until decades later, and I was born in 1958! This is yet another example of why I have never voted Tory, and probably never will. Harper mouths the words "Canada is back", yet he doesn't bother with the AIDS conference, goes backwards on the environment and pulls a "diefenbaker" on a Mars Rover! When added to the flip-flop on income trusts (which directly affected my elderly Mother) and the farcical, meaningless "Quebecois nation" motion, I am left wondering exactly what this new Tory beast is all about! I feel that my electoral choices are rapidly diminishing, as the "old" parties are but spinning their wheels. As some kind of shock to this system seems to be needed, I think I'll go Green for awhile.

I have to agree with Mr. Ferris in his assessment. If Canada is being asked to fund the science that is one thing, it also leaves the private sector open to building the equipment.

We do have the skills in the manufacturing sector to accomplish this so no drain will occur. We have the scientists in both the public and private sectors to do the research.

I'm not so sure it is a no brainer. Yes it is a boon to Canada's prowess but is it appropriate to ask the government to fund the profitability of Canadian business?

What is disturbing is the lack of a head of the CSA. I am also disturbed at some of the ways our tax dollar is being spent elsewhere, and more poignantly, where it is not being spent.

I believe this is a stand taken on principle not finance. In that light, it is a good choice.

There was one thing you forgot to mention, the entire Canadian aerospace industry, including the military, is still awaiting the recovery of what Canada could have had at least fifty years ago. How can we not afford to participate in something as important as this. While it is not for decades that these projects to reach again for the moon will take place, Canada cannot afford to not participate. Prime Minister Stephen Harper at his televised caucus meeting just before leaving for the Holidays said that the world is realizing that "Canada is Back". How can this be even remotely true, when we won't participate in a project for which other nations are asking for our expertise. How long can we afford to continue to sidestep these requests? A day will come when the rest of the world will stop asking us to help and on that day, we won't be able to get permission to participate in anything.

Another Arrow? I think this might be worse. The Arrow was an opportunity for Canadian industry to reach out and steal the spotlight from the leaders of the aviation world. This time round, a Conservative leader will be letting go of an advantage that is already firmly within the grasp of Canadian R&D. I am glad to see that some Conservatives are standing up for technology, but the Arrow has been a big reason I have never given them my vote; this moves seems on track to prove me right.

Ahh come on guys you know if god wanted Canadians to soar like Eagles he would have given us wings. I was in the RCAF when the Arrow was cancelled and knew people who's brothers and-or friends were hired en mass to go south.
I could go on for hours about such but I think it would be too damm depressing.
Bill McIntosh still a proud Canadian all though I don't know why sometimes.

Why is Ottawa balking? ...Hmmm. Maybe because it's a European, not an American project??

Right, Stevie-Dubya?

I would like to contend that removing CANADA from such important developments will eventually come to haunt us, Yes the famous Avrow Arrow was a tragic loss to CANADIAN technology as well as the workmanship lost, forever, to the United States. Canada has shown through it's innovation to be indeed a leader in this and other fields such as Medicin to name one. However, the Government sees itself completely fit to spend the money foolishly all by itself. Some poster(s) seem to think that this money invested would be a waste of same. Need anyone be reminded of Government spending? Gun Registration anyone.....definitely not a sience and a total waste of time. The technologies being developed in CANADA ultimately will have good use in our own world environment

$500M for the JSF project
$350M for Pratt & Whitney R&D

guess this little project doesn't cut it

Maybe the smack talk being leveled at Canada's space program on this blog a few months ago was justified after all:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/reportsfromabroad/champblog/2006/08/troubling_questions_about_our.html

It's beyond me why Canada is shying away from making a contribution in its area of greatest competency.

There has always been a fundamental conflict in both NASA and CSA. Are they building machines (ie shuttles, space stations) or are they doing science? There was and continues to be a great deal of controvesary and complaints when NASA did exactly what the proponents of a 'canadian' mars rover want to do. It cut money from the science budget of NASA to fund machines. Science projects that had been in development for years were either cut back or eliminated altogether. If you read between the lines this is exactly what will happen if the canadian mars rover project went ahead in this fashion. Canadian space science projects are not well funded, our canadian scientists do amazing things with very limited money. The proponents of this project are being dishonest as undertaking this project without new money will mean the elimination of many space science projects. We as canadians have to decide if we want to do science or build machines.

All I can think of this Mars issue is "Not again!!!" Does Mr. Harper _have_ to emulate Mr. Diefenbaker in the worst possible way on the most sensitive issue possible for the future-minded among us?

I truly hope he reverses himself on this one. Because Tsiolkovskii was right: humanity can't stay in this cradle forever.

I would be careful in examining the government's position on this. What are the specific parameters the government is being asked to sign up to? Are they worried about giant cost overruns? Space programs are infamous for going over budget not just by a few percent but by multiples of the original estimate. $100M seems puny.

All governments like to look good and the article from Mr. Champ makes an affirmative decision look like a no-brainer. I think there is much more under the surface here vis-a-vis how much would be expected of us by the Europeans.

It's depressing to think that other nations and international organizations have more confidence in us than we have in ourselves. This is a great opportunity for our country. Someone up in the ivory tower really needs to re-think this. I hope it's not too late for us to join the Mars Rover project.

I too cannot help but associate Harper with Diefenbaker. I work in the Hightech sector, and am very very worried that the fallout from such a monumentally stupid decision to bail on the ESA will make the brain-drain of the Arrow pale in comparison! $100million over 10years! how is that significant compared to several billion in SURPLUS for the last few years! Surely the spinoff innovation and secondary investiture from work on such a project would recoupe this measly expenditure even before the 10year timeframe was up!! Not to mention the message sent to the youth of this country!

Harper=Diefenbaker...I hope he likes that legacy...it is going to stick.