Citizen Bytes

Well this Ta in the above story definitely is a gentleman of honour! Thank you for making a point. However, as you are the only one, it is a point only you and a few will understand.

I began this strike thinking that the Administration was more in teh right, because I was told that the Union refused to negotiate with Management. When the truth came out, I realize that management was the one not bargaining for a very long time. That the Union did everything to prevent a strike.

My sympathies then went to the Union, especially when Management refused to put a freeze on Dean's and Senator's pay.

I was raised quite poor, and my family became financially solvent when my mother obtained a part-time Union job. She worked half the hours than my father and received twice the pay. Yet she only got $25/hr. So it is difficult for me to not see the advantages of having a Union, because that impacted my childhood so profoundly! There are serious differences between incomes of people in this province, and sooner or later the Provincial and Federal Governments have to do something about that. Is it fair for one family to earn more than another family, but because they live in Toronto, they are living in poverty?

The BTW legislation is a problem and part of a bigger problem, York was just where this problem came about, and showed itself. I thank the CUPE Unions for their valiant acts on behalf of all under-paid workers.

I certainly hope York University can provide proof that their offer was really teh best it could offer, but I do not recall them every trying to make their records public, or even get an independent Accountant to verify for the Union that the University was broke. I think that if the University had done that, and could provide proof, then the Unions would have settled a long time ago! But the University kept bargaining in bad faith, and thus nobody trusts them as their credibility disappeared.

Below the poverty line? You must be kidding. You are a god damn PhD student - you aren't working a full time job as a TA.

If you want to make a living, get a job.

As a graduate student myself, it is unfortunate you feel this way Sean, considering York TAs are among the highest paid in the country.

The fact remains, the average graduate TA working a mere 10 hours a week can pull in $15,000-17,000 a year. And while this may not seem like much, when coupled with an OGS scholarship or OSAP loan, this can add up to over $30,000. This is for working 10 hrs!

There are some people in this country who are also educated, work 40-50 hrs a week and don't make that kind of money.

I think it's also sad you can't see the larger picture. BOTH the union and the administration have put a gun to 50,000 students, in using them as a bargaining chip. These students are the ONLY ones who have truly paid for this.

The fact remains, the only individuals who deserve ANY sympathy on your "side" are the contract faculty (i.e. professors without tenure) because they get paid substantially less and have to reapply for their jobs each year.

The rest of you (i.e. the other 2/3s of the union) have simply argued for more money and a 2 year deal, so that in 2010 we can go through this all over again. Except this time CUPE would have more bargaining power as negotiations would coincide with those in other Canadian universities.

Money and power politics are an ugly thing my friend, and to claim this has been about "my liberal democratic rights" is ridiculous.

On a final note. As for the claim CUPE has given in substantially in their demands and have therefore argued "in good faith," this is ridiculous given that initial demands were for an equivalent 41% increase over 2 years. It's not so hard to come down from this kind of demand. You might as well have asked for a 200% increase. Or better yet, the moon.

Too bad only one person has common sense! No wonder governments are having a 'hay day' with teachers! I wonder what tune governments would play if they all quit?

On the other hand, why our role model governments never use back to work legislation on themselves as opposed to others? Is it because they abuse their powers and simply vote themselves more money/perks?!!

I'm thrilled that the government stepped in. If the university and the union can't come to terms, at least now there'll be less collateral damage. Has anyone thought about all the hard-working people in non-academic roles at york and how this has affected them? The people who serve food to these grad students, for example, have been out of work for ages. If you want to talk about living below the poverty line, talk to them!

I'm glad someone is standing up for York TAs. What a cowardly act for York to refuse to negotiate and call on the government to force TAs back to work.

It's very hard to see it from your point of view, by the fact that you're talking about "below the poverty line".

If you had a real job, it wouldn't be a teaching assistant. That's like a co-op position. Once you graduate, go out and get a real salary!

I go to Sheridan, where we don't have teaching assistants, I guess we won't have the problems your union tends to inflict on people.

But since you're saying you're quitting, you did the one thing EVERY TA SHOULD HAVE DONE!

Quit and find a "better" job, because in this economy, $20-30 an hour rocks, and you guys should have seen that.

Good .. you should have done this in the first place !!! Atleast u got ur Bachelors . think about the students' time that you wasted for 80days !!!

As a fellow graduate student and TA (in music, no less), I can say that you're deluding yourself if you think your "resignation" will make one bit of difference to anyone other than yourself. The school should have no trouble finding someone who is just as qualified and who will be thankful for the opportunity to develop their career without complaining about the pay.

Several years ago I was a TA at a major Canadian university. Our union did some good things for us, but it was run by greedy militants with completely unrealistic expectations when it came to negotiating a contract.

Like other posters have noted, a teaching assistantship is not meant to be a full-time job, and you can't expect to earn as much money as someone getting paid for 40+ hours of work per week.

Also, what about the students whose hard-earned tuition dollars are going to waste while the teachers are walking the picket lines? It's easy to blame someone else (i.e. the big bad university administration), but the teachers are the ones who made the decision to walk out out of the classroom.

As a TA myself (currently non-unionized, working at a major music conservatory in the USA), I have enough integrity to realize that being a teacher means fulfilling a professional obligation to one's students, not just looking out for one's own selfish interests.

The reason these wages are "below the poverty line" is because you are working a part-time job. CUPE has been very fond of saying that it's members are students, so remember that. You are a student. This is not a full-time job. It is a temporary position that is meant to help supplement your income while you study. I would actually view it as a service bursary - similar to what those one student councils or residence life teams do. And frankly, the residence life teams often do a lot more than what they're paid for, and certainly do more than a TA.

As a contract faculty member myself, though at a different university, I support the contract faculty at York.

However, I am disappointed by your actions. As others have mentioned, you are still a student. That being said, you should feel exceptionally fortunate that you are able to earn excellent income (for the number of hours worked) while being a student. It is important to remember that the purpose of a TAship is to help you through your graduate studies, nothing more.

I am a student at an Ontario Univeristy and has and had friends at York this year. I talked to one today who wanted to do her honours program but because of all you greedy ta's, you now made her quit. What an example you guys have made. I have ta's here and they are disgusted by all of you. You are a temp postion and should be lucky u got one at all. With this economic crisis I dont even know I can afford the final 3 years of school and I work for DND as an army resrevst. If I were you, I would reconcider teaching students because you shown as a bad example that you dont care what so ever. SHAME ON ALL OF YOU!!!!

I have to agree with the appalled grad student (among many others) on this one. In no way should anyone enroll in a PhD program expecting to earn a living. If you do, you're in it for the wrong reasons. You're a student! The way that works is students PAY to receive an education which will improve their employment prospects and financial status - being a student isn't in and of itself a career.

This comparison to the poverty line is completely spurious. When I was a Ph.D. student some had scholarships/studentships and some had to be TAs, and teach TWO courses (at $15K each) to make ends meet. Sure it was hard, especially considering we had to pay tuition out of that, but the expectation was that we'd all move on at the end and get jobs (which I eventually did, thankfully).

If I'm on anyone's side here it's those sessional lecturers, with their rolling contracts that go on ad infinitum. They've made their sacrifices and deserve a break. This should be a completely separate issue; the grad student TAs who tag along with the sessional lecturers looking to make a few extra bucks should be ashamed.

Sean, I don't mean bad by saying this. I had it rough and complained a lot when I was a grad student, too. But I had to keep hoping there was a light at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully that now you've resigned as a student and joined those currently seeking employment, you will too.

If this strike was simply over the mistreatment of contract faculty at York University, I'm sure there would be much more sympathy for CUPEs cause - and by now, a potential resolution to this strike, without having to resort to "back-to-work" legislation.

The fact remains, the plight of contract faculty has NOT been the only issue at hand, as the majority of those on strike have been concerned with money and a 2 year contract - i.e. so that there would be more leverage over York's administration in 2 years.

That being said, as a former York student myself (of 4 years), I have absolutely NO SYMPATHY for its administration, who share equal blame for this strike.

This disgusting and childish display over the last few months has threatened the education of 50,000 students for personal or business ends.

Once again, it has been about money and power-politics, nothing more!

And despite what many may think, neither side can rightly claim a "moral high-card" as the only victims in this situation has been the students.

The students should not have to suffer. Its not fare. They need to get their education. I am happy the teachers have been legislated back to work. I am sure they are being paid more than many other working adults in this country. We need to learn contentment and not greed.

Jackie

Like some of the other posters, I am also a PhD student as well as a TA. I believe that one thing that most people in this debate overlook is that graduate education is entirely voluntary. In fact, we compete for positions at various universities. At the end of the day, we all make a decision, knowing what our pay-package will be, to pursue our studies. The economists among us call it 'opportunity cost' - we choose to give up one thing in order to pursue something else. Yes, could make more money right now working at a variety of jobs. Your hope, as well as mine, was that choosing to make less now would be rewarded with a full-time teaching position which pays far more than other jobs. To then turn around and claim that anyone is MAKING you work for wages below the poverty line is disingenuous at best.

Mr. Hully, nobody is forcing you to pursue your PhD, nor are they forcing you to TA. Thus, nobody is 'forcing' you to live below the poverty line. In fact, the whole notion of us as workers, when we are in fact more closely linked to the historical role of apprentices, is a bit silly.

Excellent point Brad.

You should head out to Edmonton, apparently beggars are making $400.00 a day. Surely you should be able to busk and make even more than that.

Quit your whining, I had to work my way through school same as a lot of people. No one said you can't save a few dollars first, THEN go get your PhD.

I am a PhD student and a TA as well. Two issues which I've posted on CBC before have been bothering me:
1) When you were hired (or admitted into school) weren't you told how much you are going to make? Why did you take the job (or accepted the admission offer) if it was outrageous?!
2) For all contract faculty, if you are unhappy with your pay or job conditions, maybe you should have had tried to get a full-time job to being with, and if you are terribly unhappy you can always find work elsewhere. Nobody's keeping you at York to gun point. Of course, you'll be lucky if you find a similar job with similar pay elsewhere during this economic crisis.

Let's not forget, our primary function is "studying" not TAships. Instead of undermining York, try to do well in school and maybe build a good reputation for your university once you graduate.

Hey Sean...try this...type your name into google and push "I'm Feeling Lucky"

Any potential employer who ever googles your name will discover these remakably small thoughts of yours, and conclude that you really don't give a ---- about your job, obligations, loyalty, perserverence, or ethics, and all you really care about is a buck or two extra per hour...

Nice move!

TAs and Sessional/Temp Instructors work very hard for the small amount of money they are paid. I'm sure many former TAs will attest to the fact that most work WAY more hours than they are paid for. In addition to that, they are expected to complete their degree - so tack on another 40-50 hrs a week.

Then we get to hear constructive comments like:

"want real money - get a real job"
"it's not like it's that difficult"
"I worked while I went to school"

The bigger issue is whether we should be making post-secondary education more accessible for undergrad and grad students by offering them a living wage/scholarships/reduced tuition while they complete their degree. Can't we discuss the issue at hand without dishing out unnecessary and undeserved criticism?

I was a graduate student and TA at UWO (Western Ontario). As a TA I gave lectures to small classes of undergraduate science students taking their lab classes. I did have to look over the material and plan my lecture but it was simple. If you knew the material and understood what the students needed to learn it was not a lot of work and it was actually beneficial to me to have to do it. The other tasks I had to perform were to mark the labwork (no brainer) and to offer impromptu help to students during and after their lab work (it was a lot of fun).

I did not view my TA work as real work. I knew enough to provide competent guidance and I tried to inspire my students beyond the lab material but I certainly did not have the depth, breadth or experience of my professors. I saw my TA experience more as a learning requirement for post graduates and I happen to like teaching more advanced students. I wasn't interested in the money as I had a scholarship as well as monetary support from my professor.

I suppose I might have been more money-minded if I did not have any support from academia but my aim was always to learn and to get out. I saw some graduate students who never seem to leave university - they seem to go on and on for many many years as graduate students, never really finishing their theses.

I think there is a place for low-paid entry work, even though the person may be very well-educated. This is like the age-old apprenticeship system where younger people who should not have families and mortgages to support, get their feet wet while under the wings of their teachers and mentors. The pay needs to stay low so that young people are encouraged to move on to higher goals; making way for their younger peers to take their place. This also provides inexpensive competent help for professors who are too few to really do all the research.

Universities are places of learning, not places of employment. If you want to make money, finish your degree(s) and go out into the real world. Don't hang about and complain about money because there will never be enough money for this sort of work in a university. Universities are not revenue-generating centres. Raising the costs to universities only raises the costs of providing education to younger people - it's destructive and ruins it for future generations of students.

The idea that PhD or MA students should just "get a real job" misses some important points:

1. Grad students actually have two jobs. One is teaching/grading, the other is researching/writing. It's actually the second one that's more important, and at my school they've been very up front about the fact that the money we receive is more for our research than for our TAing.

2. TAs are often prohibited from holding other employment as a condition of accepting a TAship. And even if they were contractually allowed to have other jobs, they wouldn't have time for it. How many people with "real jobs" will work weekends for zero extra pay? Because grad students have to do it pretty frequently.

3. If we don't accept that grad students should be paid a living wage, who is left to attend grad school? A few rich people? Do we want the doctors, lawyers, scientists, etc. of tomorrow to be the people who are the most talented, or do we want them to be the few who were rich enough to be able to go without a "real" job for four or five years?

Between course work, research, and TAing, most grad students easily work 40-50 hours a week. I'm not really sure how a "real job" is supposed to fit in around that.

I think "BRAD" summed it up well.

I'm disgusted that there are expectations from part-time student/TAs that they should live a life of leisure.

I borrowed my way through school. At 22, I was saddled with close to $50K in debt for the five years I attended university. And I graduated in 1999 -- almost 10 full years ago.

It sucked. I lived with family for 7 years before I could afford to move out. I didn't travel, I didn't buy expensive things, and eventually I paid it all back (did it in 5 years!).

Now, I live a very comfortable life and the one hand-out I got was BORROWED MONEY.

People need to own up to their decisions and understand there may be consequences, but the decision is theirs to make.

Wow! This is a monolithic, couragous stance. Linden McIntyre's "Current" discussion with a part-time faculty representative pointed to a number of factors which led to this unfortunate situation at York: number one being federal transfer payments to fund colleges and universities.

It seems like things haven't changed much since I went through UWO, finishing in the early 90's.
I had taken two full credits in dramatic literature with a wonderful professor/actor/ director, John Lingard. At the end of that year, John won the award for the best undergraduate studies professor. Just after hearing this news, I heard that John would be moving to Fredericton to take up a tenured position (one not offered to him in London despite years of superlative contributions) at UNB.

Hopefully Sean's departure resonates with the powers that be, and will be temporary. Hopefully, as such, his departure won't be felt with as much disappointment/sadness as I felt with my professor's leaving. Thanks for your efforts Sean.

My condolences on your job. But, it's not worth it to teach at York anyway.

You raise an undisputed point Garnetgirl. TAs and contract faculty obviously work extremely hard for the money they make. As a grad student myself I can attest to the fact that is is NOT always easy to make ends meet and complete required work. But the struggle continues, after all, I DID choose to be in this situation and was well aware of my funding (or lack thereof) before taking the graduate path.

I also think it is extremely unfair to focus on a rather limited number of comments, partial comments at best, and yet make the sweeping claim: "Can't we discuss the issue at hand without dishing out unnecessary and undeserved criticism?"

In fact, some of the comments here have been quite illuminating, especially given that they are from actual graduate students and TAs themselves. So much for "solidarity" behind an unwavering righteous cause.

It has been obvious to even us graduate students and TAs that there are OTHER issues at play here - other than moral righteousness of course.

The fact that there is a "bigger issue" about "making post-secondary education more accessible for undergrad and grad students" does not negate the fact that this strike has simply been about money and power-politics on BOTH sides.

Unfortunately, this has been at the EXPENSE of the education of 50,000 students, not in favor of it.

In fact, I speak from personal experience in such matters, as a former York student myself and given my better half still attends this university.

The bottom-line is that if it was truly CUPEs intent to "pave the way" for a brighter future for Ontario's education system (a rather chivalrous agenda), there are other forums for such matters - that is, other than holding 50,000 students as a bargaining chip.

Perhaps CUPE could have put as much energy into lobbying the provincial government or protesting on the front lawn of Queens park, as they did into this strike?

But wait, larger education reforms would essentially put CUPE out of business now wouldn't it? I mean who has use for a union if workers are happy and our education system ran smoothly?

Gotta love politics.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out, Sean.

Play your fiddle somewhere else Sean. I and everyone else who has gone to university knows that TAs make damn good money for the actual work they perform. There are a line of people behind you who would love to get the cushy TA position to help pay for their education.

I am also a student at an Ontario University. If those who have not witnessed what a TA does, then let me tell you they should be happy getting paid $10 an hour.

There seems to be some general and serious confusion about TA wages and how they relate to the poverty line. In fact, it actually enrages me and makes me wonder if some of these academics have ever worked a real job -- which many of MY fellow TAs haven't.

Earning $32, $38, and $40 per hour (depending on school and grad. status) is not below the poverty line. In fact, it is incredibly healthy considering you're not even finished your degree. They seem to miss that the reason they are below the poverty line is that they only work 140-200 hours per term (that's actually heavy for a TA), so the problem is in your hours, not your PAY rate. It doesn't warrant sympathy, and your education is to get you a high paying job later. You're not doing society a service, you're doing yourself one, so don't even bother with that line.

It astounds me that people bright enough for teaching higher education can't figure that out. If you TA hours aren't enough, go get a real job on the side. I know plenty of students who do.

Personally, I smile each time I look at my hourly rate as a TA, and compare it to the $8.60 I made at Wal-Mart pushing carts, before I took the bus to my night job to pay tuition during summers. Sometimes I think my fellow TAs are the most spoiled and ungrateful people I've ever worked with.

Musicology?

Get a real job and support yourself like everyone else. Good riddance.

Three words for you: GET A JOB!

Hey man,
What you are talking about.
You are earning 3 times more than average people than how come you are ........

How would this TA have gotten his degree from York if there had been a strike while he was at school?

Boo Hoo!

At least he threw away all the time he has put in toward his PhD thus far. Smart move.

Not like he was going to get a real job anyway. Musicology? Go start your job at Tim Horton's now and maybe you will be night manager soon.

If students want to blame someone for tuition hikes, blame CUPE.

You have to be kidding me, you greedy, entitlement-driven elitist. I have a BSC, work two jobs and make less an hour than your average TA.

Give me a break and join the rest of us in the real world where wages start at $25K a year at the entry level for 48 hours a week without being intellectually stimulated and then tell me that you are hard done by.

1.) students tend to live under the poverty line anyway and there are grad students out there who do not have T.A positions and are competing to get one...consider yourself lucky to be earning any money at all

2.) arts are already underfunded -- perhaps you should have stuck it out and saved such a fight for later on when, say, as a music teacher you're STILL living under the aforementioned 'poverty line'

What a pompous a$$!

Twenty-five dollars an hour is below the poverty line?

Try stepping into the real world sometime Sean.

While I agree with the points here about TAing being a temporary position and graduate school being an investment for a future career rather than a full time job, I do think its important to point out that TAs provide a crucial service to the University, and many (not all, but about 90% of the ones in my department, at least) work very, very hard. The History TAs in my department basically teach first year history courses; although professors conduct lectures, the TAs conduct recitations/discussion sections, do all the grading, deal with all student-related issues, and often design tests and paper assignments as well. I teach 4 hours a week (the professor teaches 2) and spend a substantial amount of time preparing for them, and this term I will grade over 100 exams and 250 papers. If you care about your students, like I do, this takes a LOT of time to do, far more than the "10 hours a week" the university claims you do.

On top of that, I am being paid as a graduate student to produce academic work for them. I am expected to read 3-4 (200-300 pg) books a week, write 1-2 papers a week for coursework, as well as working on my thesis/dissertation in my "spare time" (????). If I want to complete my degree in the time frame allotted (and that I have funding for), there is absolutely no way I could get a part time job on the side. This would set me back so far in my research that I might end up being one of those grad students in school forever, which is certainly a drain on the system. This is much different than an undergraduate degree; I worked throughout my undergrad, like all you other hard-workers out there.

Now, I'm not complaining about this, because I absolutely love the work, I'm just pointing out that for most of us getting another job while in grad school is not really an option; grad school is a full-time commitment, and unlike those in real jobs I don't even get weekends or summers off. Of course this was my choice and I'm fine with living in poverty during these years (I don't have time to spend money anyway!). But people need at least a subsistence level of living, and if the University does not provide that, they are taking advantage of a crucial (if vulnerable) aspect of their infrastructure. I'm not sure if this is the case with York University (that would require a detailed analysis of cost of living in that area vs. what they're being paid), but it is something to think about.

Also, it may very well be that you don't think learning, studying or teaching history is productive or important to society. But obviously the University and our government does, which is why we have these departments, and why they've managed to stay alive over centuries. There are many jobs that I don't think are necessary to society (do we really NEED hairdressers, producers of luxury cars...etc.), but obviously many people do, so why should I deny them the right to at least appeal for subsistence living? And no, graduate students should not be paid excessive wages, but at least enough to survive, so that we can continue to produce scholarship in Canada that helps us understand the world we live in, its past and present, and hopefully, make it a better place.

I applaud the decision to quit. It is common sense to me that if you cannot make enough to support yourself then you should look for another job that will pay you enough. I don’t really understand why someone would be trying to earn a living as a TA. I find TA’s to be largely useless when I was in school and I thought these positions were for students to make a little money on the side. I don’t know what world some people live in, but from what I see people who have trouble paying the bills in school get real jobs and sometimes have to take fewer courses. Personally, I took a couple of years off to save money before I continued my school after undergrad. Do you expect the students or the ‘government’ to be somehow subsidising everyone’s education? Who is going to pay for that? I would rather spend that money on health care and social housing. This is the real world, you can’t just expect to have everything laid out and handed to you on a silver platter.

It is easy to throw out baseless allegations but there is no question in my mind that both sides bargained in good faith. There is no one sitting in the boardrooms thinking they are going to stick to the TAs and instead buy themselves new couches for their offices. The school has many budgetary needs to worry about it and with the economy on a downturn did anyone really expect that they would be able to afford big pay raises. Time to move on and start the classes before this fiasco spirals out of control.

Also, I would add that the idea that academia is a waste of time or is not productive is only true some of the time. I'll admit that I'm not really sure how understanding medieval fables or something like that is directly applicable to today's world (although there are probably some indirect ways that it does), but I study twentieth century gender issues, particularly issues relating to women's health. My work might eventually be the basis on which government health programs are developed, and thus indirectly produce some "good"/"productive" work for society. This is one of the reasons why governments fund the education of graduate students...because their work in helping use understand the way society works might pay off big for society in the long run. If we don't provide funding for that, however, as Adam pointed out, the only people in grad school will be the ones with the money to fund 4-5 years out of the job market, rather than the brightest minds who will best contribute to our future.

Can't agree with the self-harming tactics. You've taken yourself out of the loop that was close to the issue and close to its players. Now where are you?

So you believe that falling on a sword is a good fighting tactic, but what do your wife and kids think? (If you're single, get used to being single - female humans have a way of understanding money issues better than male ones tend to.)

Boo Hoo! Asking for job security (which does not exist in the real world) and a huge raise during a recession? Are you stupid? I mean seriously, you are still a STUDENT!!!!! You did not have to sign the contract, you could have got a real job (yes I went there). You and your union caused me to be late for my exam at Seneca@York twice because of your stupidity. York should fire all of you and ban unions. Im sure there are other students out there who would be happy to take you're place. The gov't should have mandated you all back to work an hour into your strike. Affecting the lives of 50,000 students for you're greed... shame on all of you.

For all of you how tell us graduate students to get "a real job" try going to grad school and then snap at us. It is a real job. I work 50 hrs a week. I contribute to society. I teach, research, and publish scholarly articles. Without TA's universities cannot function. We are cheap exploited labor who do a VERY highly skilled job. You can't pull someone in off the street to do our work.

I'm tired of people who haven't done a PhD telling me that I don't work. I work. Hard. Ever day. And have lived below the poverty line for 7 years.

Give me a break.

Tens of thousands of people have been laid off in the biggest economic downturn in a century and you quite your job because the government prevented you from holding thousands of students’ hostage.

How are you going to pay for your PHD now - get a job at Tim's?

Going on strike for a part time job that you'll be in for a couple of years seems out of proportion to me. I just don't get it.

This is pathetic. The complaint that you've not been "given a living wage" is nonsense. How did you survive your first year, and your Masters if you didn't have "a living wage"?

If you can't make ends meet between your grad funding and your teaching assistantship, then you're spending your money irresponsibly. If things are so tight, then take out a student loan. I'm sure there's lots of prospective grad students willing to take your spot for the wage you've given up. Clearly you've squandered an excellent opportunity.

When I was a grad student, I was glad to be getting paid by scholarship and by teaching assistantship. Most grad students are. How ungrateful to be whining over a job that pays around 20 bucks an hour.

As a student working on my fourth year as an undergraduate at York, I find this post very surprising. In order to maintain an income during the year, I work 20-30 hours a week at a job unaffiliated with the school for $10 an hour. Granted, it does not require an education, but it's difficult, stressful and tiring work nonetheless.

As someone approaching the completion of their degree, I do not complain about my poor wages. The understanding that I am expanding my knowledge, and improving my chances to get a more rewarding and better paying job when I complete my education is enough.

Assuming the average TA makes about 17,000 per school year for 10 hours of work per week, they are certainly not being given an unfair wage. At my rate of pay, for 10 hours of work a week over 8 months, I would make about $3,200. That is a huge disparity, and honestly I find it insulting to hear that students with only an additional year or two of education could be complaining about a job which pays so well compared to most of their fellow students. I challenge any TA to find a part-time job that pays even remotely as well as their current positions. I can guarantee there are none to be found.

Meh. Post secondary education is one of the biggest scams going.

There should Not be any public funding of these institutions. Ha. The education industrial complex.

Boo hoo....welcome to the real world. Your position is supposed o be temporary, a valuable learning experience while continuing your education and eventually working in your chosen career. This position is not supposed to solely support you. You are a student. Save for, or get a loan for your education like every other student in this county. That is what you are...a student, earning some money while being educated. It is supposed to be means to an end. I believe that all of the striking Teaching Assistants should have been fired a month ago. Give their positions to Canadians who would appreciate the job and understand that in this day and age there is no such thing as job security. Wake up.

Sean, my friend; you did the right thing. You quit. Obviously academia is not for you. You chose to study in a field which has extremely limited career choices (and even less "demand"); especially in today's economy. I have never been eligible for a union job because of my career path. I've been told "If you don't like it, quit". And I have quit and found other jobs (usually with improved "situations"). I've also been "held hostage" by unions shutting down my workplace while they attempt to "negotiate" settlements (sometimes violently) that provided them with greater pay and superior benefits than what I as a professional was earning. Fine. My career path was my choice and I stand by it.

I resented (and continue to resent) unions for depriving me of an opportunity to continue working but I recognize their need to be a power structure that balances the "corporate greed" and "short-term, bottom line management" so prevalent in today's economy.

As others have paraphrased or said already; "don't let the door hit what the dog should have bit". Find another job, move on, and be comfortable with your decision. But for heaven's sake try thinking about other people sometimes. It'll do you some good.

Okay, well good for you. Bye. You won't be missed.

While persuing a graduate degree in science, students actually spend the bulk of their time (> 40 hours/week) in the lab doing research. Additional time is devoted to course work, literature searches and seminars. Many of these students still find time to TA in a lab for 10 hours a week. Many potential graduate students are turned away by laboratories because they cannot bring their own funding in the form of a scholarship. They would happily survive on TA wages but can't even get a foot in the door.

This person is clearly delusional and deems himself entitled to far more than he realistically deserves. You are a student at an educational institution, not an employee in the work force. Do you expect York to pay your way through univeristy?

If you do not have the financial backing to undertake further education, than you shouldn't. It is no one's fault but your own that you can't afford to live the life you chose.

Are you kidding me? You should be a comedian.

Life is all about making choices. It would appear that you made the right one for you. All the best in the future.

I find laughable that people seeking out MA's and PhD's are whining about working extra hours without pay. It's a fact of life for professionals. You may be staring down the wrong career path.

Take some thing practical, we all know fine arts degree ends up working as a waiter. If you have graduate degree in music, it is even worse. Get a real education and do not complaint. If you do not want one, do not stop our students pursuring one

It sounds to me like you needed an excuse to drop out of your PhD. The second year is usually the hardest.

When you're filling double-doubles at Timmie's think about what it was like when you TAed and only got paid 35$ an hour...sniff, sniff...

Education is a privilege not a right - and TAing is a bonus that you get to help your smart little self finish their PhD. Ooops, I forgot, you quit.

Sorry brother but youre a TA in 'musicology'... I dont know what country or planet for that matter you think would say you should be making any more than what theyre giving you.

Just because you have a completely useless education (im sorry, I know its not useless.. but its not something you go into when money is an issue) doesnt mean you can demand more money at the only position where your skills are remotely usable (a teaching assistant)

To the TA who just resigned: assuming you are working 50 weeks (not a chance!) a year, 10-hr work week will put you in a $30/hr wage category.

This is more than three times the minimum wage in Ontario. What are you doing the remainer of your days when most of us work 40 hours a week at a much lesser rate than you were getting.

You basically put yourself first before students' education. Shame on you!

This strike unfortunately enhances the bad joke "friends don't let friends go to York."

Like most strikes, and resembling the transit strike in Ottawa, this strike was hurting the very people you were hired to serve. You were supposed to be helping those who needed the extra help. So, what did you do? You held those very students hostage, and to top it off, the whole student base got held hostage. It seems to me that little regard was given to the needy students and their classmates in order to "forward" your cause. This is very typical of mob mentality following union propoganda drivel.

The right to strike comes with responsibilities. You had a responsibility to the students you were tutoring. You had a responsibility to ensure that the classes were taught and knowledge passed to the students. When you walked you, you gave up that responsibilities for which you were hired. Do you realize that in the absence of a union and a strike mandate what you did would have been classified as job abandonment. You abandoned your your job, your students and your responsibilities.

That you are leaving means that these students that you were originally hired to help no longer have to deal with a T/A than cannot be trusted to fill his responsibilities.

For many, that will not be a great loss.

You should still be wished luck in your non-post-grad eneavours. One would hope that you current level of education qualifies you for more than just singing songs and teaching toddlers to play percussion instruments at daycares.

Wow. Smell you. Such an altruistic role model. A student giving up his teaching assistantship because it doesn't pay enough. Someone call the Nobel Academy.

So you are quitting a job because you feel that the government isn't paying you a good wage?

You work for the public. These students who pay their tuition, and your salary are left without the service that they paid for.

I have no sympathy for you at all!!!

Try walking in my shoes and enter reality. I can't find work in the private sector as job losses are mounting. I'm stressed out because I don't know how I am supposed to make ends meet.

In my opinion you shouldn't have had the right to strike in the first place as you work for the public.

Now you are having a hissy fit because the government legislated you back to work. Something they should have done a month ago!!!

Try living on $20000 a year and tell me how you like it.

You might be educated but you have no idea how the majority of the people in this tough economic time live.

@appalled_grad_student

You wrote:
"the average graduate TA working a mere 10 hours a week can pull in $15,000-17,000 a year. And while this may not seem like much, when coupled with an OGS scholarship or OSAP loan, this can add up to over $30,000. This is for working 10 hrs!"

Do you mean TEACHING 10 hours? or WORKING ?
Is that plausible?
Because on the Old Continent as on the New one, teaching "a mere" 10 hours a week at University level may not seem much either, but it does involve preparing your lessons, grading papers and assessing final exams. Which means you usually end up working about 25 hours a week on your teaching load.
AND you still have your research work to do, which is the other side of the (fake) coin.
Besides, as a TA here, you earn €1760/month at most, for 12 hours - I mean teaching)
Then again, when there's a strike (and before yesterday, French University teachers had not been on any strike since 1986, to my knowledge), students are very unlikely to ask for the repayment of their €400/year tuition fees...
I thought we were struggling because we were the last socialists/silly idealists on Earth in a country where raising ttuition fees is the Last Frontier.
Well, it turns out I was mistaken.

I appreciate your interest in my comment "appaled_French_Univ_teacher", thank you.

From personal experience I know TAs can work extremely hard. But that TAing requires additional prep work does not negate the fact that:

(1) When wages, scholarships, benifits and government funding are taken into account (the WHOLE package), York TA's make WELL above the poverty line, let alone the average Canadian citizen. In fact, they are the highest paid TAs in Canada;

(2) Pursuing graduate work is optional, and individuals are well aware of their funding (or lack thereof) when applying to different schools in Canada. No one has a "gun to their head" as it were;

(3) We are students. We invest our time, resources and energy for a (potentially) better future. This is not a permanent occupation, and in fact, it is even beneficial on a PhD or job application to have this type of experience. Some people work for NOTHING in co-op, intern or apprenticeships to get this kind of experience;

(4) TA positions can be extremely scarce in some fields, thus complaining about having a source of readily available income (on campus no less) while others do not, seems a bit much;

(5) Even if one considers TAing a "job" in the more traditional sense, other occupations "bring their work home" as it were. I'm sure only a limited number of these individuals actually receive monetary reimbursement for their troubles;

And (6) while this particular strike HAS involved a valid concern about contract faculty, and York's administration has NOT bargained in good faith, to claim CUPE has some sort of "moral high-card" or is interested in "larger education reform" ignores the fact that this particular-strike has simply been about money and power. Nothing more.

I feel it's a shame that those who have had the privilege to not only finish their first degree (a luxury many do not have) but to move on to further studies AND were able to find themselves lucky enough to get a teaching position in one of the highest paid schools in Canada, could actually spend 3 months on strike (at the expense of 50,000 students no less) claiming that they had been somehow "unjustly treated."

It is sad.

Here and now i confess to be a Conservative. If that sandbags my credibility - so be it.I cannot beliive the whining forom these TAs

Myy wife and daughter both graduated from UWO - '76 and'04 repectively. Both worked at menial part-time jobs and ended up in debt. Both women graduated, Honours Philosophy(wife) and Honours English(daughter).Having witnessed both journeys, I am filled with pride and respect for both of them. This nonsense about living in poverty is laughable and sad at the same time.

For the record,32 years later my wife still thinks a short sacrifice was well worth the enrichment her studies added to her life.Do these TAs all live in Jack Layton's riding?
Barry
Coulbeck

Thank you for your answer, appalled_Grad_student (we should create the International Association of Appalled People:-)
I don't know much about the strike in Toronto but the issues look similar to those being discussed in France at the moment. It also reminds me of the situation at UC Berkeley in... 1997 (I know, I know). Unbelievably, the TAs went on strike that year and I was there to see it. In my view, they were utterly underpaid.

1) I do not know whether York TAs are the best-paid in Canada, so I'll just have to take your word. I can just hope they're not totally destitute in other places...

2) Pursuing graduate work is optional: granted. What if you want to become a researcher, though?

3) TA jobs look good on CVs. Right. Do you mean occupations that look good on your CV should be badly paid? Or do you mean those people's intentions are evil? that they actually expect to work for money or for some other kind of "profit"?
Comparison is no reason. We all fare better than - let's say Iraqi orphans... orphan girls, I mean.
I can't help thinking the people who work for nothing should be demonstrating as well. Here, they actually did, last year. Wearing masks. And they didn't get much for their trouble.
Now, that was sad.

4) TA positions are scarce. You're right. Yet work, generally speaking, is becoming scarce. Should holding a job that matches your competences be regarded as a priviledge?
If your answer is yes, you should normally be aware there's something rotten.

5) other professions bringing their work home.
Well... do you mean doctors? lawyers? or Jérôme Kerviel's counterparts?
I can't see any that wouldn't get decent, if not outrageously high salaries, but I may be wrong.

6) Not last, but not least either: could you tell me what is NOT about money and power in labour relationships?
It does not mean anger and dignity have nothing to do with it.
Well... you seem to make fun of the union's general attitude (pretending they have a "moral high-card", apparently) but you too seem disapprove of the strike for "moral" reasons, or so you say...
So, seen from France, why couldn't they have their own "moral" reasons too?

Then, don't you think it weird that TAs can block the whole system (50 000 students, as you say) on their own? Seen from very far away, it seems that many, many courses are taught by TAs. Isn't that because they are cheaper to hire than other kinds of staff?
I know they don't hold PhDs but apparently, they're considered good enough to teach...
If I were a student, I'd definitely ask for a rebate, but not because of the strike. :-)

...and by the way, if anybody still reads this...
about the "get a real job" comments and the general contempt for such "useless" studies as "musicology" that I can see here and that is also obvious in France:

Would any of you tell TV news anchorpersons, extravagantly paid to work (apparently) two hours a day at most, that they should get a real job?

If TAs don't have a real job, what about tenured professors, then? because I can't see any difference in the nature of their occupations, except that tenured professors teach less hours.

And now a tongue in cheek remark, that is not meant to hurt anybody:
"You should get a real job!" was probably what sniggering Vikings used to tell the monks when they interrupted their manuscript copying to slit their throats.
This does not necessarily mean those monks should have been better fed than the rest of the population - which they were, quite unfairly.
Yet the usefulness of research or intellectual pursuits is often not immediately perceptible, even in so called "hard sciences": in 1900, you would probably have told Einstein to get a real job (and he had one! which prevented him from fully dedicating his time to his research) and you would certainly have thought that he was losing his time scribbling mathematical formulas ...

I think it's absolutely ridiculous that an entire university was shut down because a few people decided they were not being paid enough. Literally, over 30 000 lives are put on hold for the selfishness of a few. And let us suppose that the TAs salaries ARE increased; then tutitions go up. What's next... students go on strike because they think they're paying too much tuition? People need to stop complaining and just get with it. I go to McGill and we have had TA strikes, but no one in their right mind would force the university to shut down. I'd say York University has just done a great job of completely ruining its reputation (the meager reputation it already had).

As an undergraduate student at York, Sean, I am think that you are being selfish in thinking that by quitting your TA job would bring any changes to the relationship between the union and the university administration. For three months, the undergrads at York had to sit around waiting each day to hear if there would be classes resuming. The anixety and the stress from those three months, still lingers around, and it is now May.

As many people, have previously commented, the TA position is a chance to gain experience while complete a Masters or PHD degree. Please be thankful that you have your Bachelors. I have been working three jobs, while going to school for the past five years to obtain my undgergrad, and have over 50K in student loans as well to show for it.

I have put myself through school. Students are not supposed to be in the category of receiving full time wages; full time wages come when you get a job beyond TA positions. In relation, to the wages being below the poverty line, please remember that there are those in this country and province, who go to Food banks and struggle to live month to month or day to day.

My Mom worked two jobs while barely struggling to pay our mortgage and still had to access credit counselors for past debts. There are people right now at this moment staying in shelters downtown because they have been unable to pay their rent or for other reasons manage to keep a secure job.

Please be thankful that you have had the priviledge of having a job that is secure and stable. I have had to struggle these past few months since classes resumed at York to pay my living expenses while trying to keep up with the condensed work load from my classes. My classes have been crammed from ten months worth of material into four.

I am not angry with the circumstances that have occurred at York from the strike with regards to the aftermath, but I am very disappointed that this whole situation had to result in so many students and other people that were affected in putting their day to day lives on hold so that the administration and the union could argue back and forth for three months.

The only ones out of this whole situation that deserve any consideration or second thought are the contract faculty for they are the ones that have to be secondary. I am not saying that TAs do not work hard; but these positions are only temporary. The contract faculty are the ones that have worked hard in fighting for each position that they have obtained. So, please remember that when a situation like this occurs, there is always going to be a ripple effect that affects more people than you think.