Toronto Mayor David Miller has been fighting to keep guns off the streets of Canada's biggest city for years.

He was in the spotlight again when he backed a proposal that would ban gun clubs on city property, including one that is above the busy Union Station in downtown Toronto.

CBCNews.ca writer Brian Kemp spoke with Miller about his reasons for backing the proposal and what he thinks should be done to control illegal guns in his city and in Canada.

People are questioning your plan to eliminate recreational use of firearms on city property, saying it is unfair to legitimate gun users, who argue that they aren't the ones committing the gun crimes in the city. Why target them?

Miller: First of all, this is part of a significant overall strategy to combat crime and gun crime, which has included the biggest increases in police spending in the history of this city — 450 new police officers, significant programs to reach out to young people who are in priority neighbourhoods, and it needs to be viewed in that context.'Are we a society that values safety or are we a society that values a hobby that repeatedly causes danger on our streets?' asks Toronto Mayor David Miller. (Canadian Press)

Crime is down in Toronto in almost every category in each of the last three years, except gun crime. And what that tells you is we are getting at the criminals but we are not yet getting at the guns. It's very clear in Toronto that a large proportion of guns used in crimes come from Canadian sources. They are stolen from legal gun owners.

So if you want to get at the guns you have to get at the supply and prevent the gun crime occurring in the first place and one of the things you have to do is eliminate the ownership of handguns in Canada…and eliminate the locally available, privately stored guns in Toronto.

Did you expect the opposition to come up as it did?

Miller: Yes. The gun lobby is very organized. It's always been very organized. The people that came before us [at the executive committee] were sports people and hobbyists. Their hobby puts the lives of people in Toronto at risk. That's the fact. According to the national criminal database, called CPIC, there have been 85,000 guns reported stolen in Canada, 44,000 of which are handguns. Those all start out being legally kept by a collector, sportsman or hobbyist [but] end up being used in crimes.

I don't think those safety risks are acceptable anymore. That's why we're proposing this.

We're also working hard with U.S. cities and pushing the federal government to do much more about border security. We've got to do all of these things. You've got to have more police, more community programs and fewer guns, both from Canadian sources and American sources. That's what makes your city safe.

Some people have argued that this is a symbolic effort and that you're not targeting the people that should be targeted. How do you respond to that?

Miller: There is important symbolism in this. Are we a society that values safety or are we a society that values a hobby that repeatedly causes danger on our streets?

If you look at countries that have very strict gun control laws … in England there are significantly lower rates of gun crime and murder. Canada's [numbers] are about six times England's and America's are about 11 times England.

It's very clear — the fewer guns available in society the safer you are. I think we're making a very strong statement symbolically, but we're also doing an action that will make a very real difference.

A lot of people will say that the backbone of this problem is illegal handguns brought across the U.S. border. How you can you play a role in fighting that effort?

Miller: Our police service does work closely with the RCMP and the FBI…I think we need to do much more. I'm a member of Mayors Against Illegal Guns in the United States. I'm helping U.S. mayors advocate for changes in American laws like gun tracing, for example. The national government in Canada could enact the firearms marking regulations. There was an international treaty in 2002, but they haven't enacted the regulations yet. That would significantly help in tracing guns that are used in crimes.

It's time for the national government to speak up. The Americans are very clear about border security issues because they are worried about terrorists coming from Canada. Those kinds of incidents are rare to say the least, but every single day guns come up from the U.S. I think it's time for us to take a very tough attitude collectively with the U.S.

From what you know, from what police officers and others are telling you, where are a lot of the guns coming into Toronto from?

Miller: They're coming from the U.S. and from Canada. The proportions vary from year to year. A few years ago I was told informally by the then police chief that it was high as 50 per cent were Canadian sourced. I say now, over the last couple of years it's between 30 and perhaps up to 40 per cent Canadian sourced. Regardless, there's a significant proportion of identifiable guns that come from Canada. That's clear. The others come predominantly from the U.S., particularly from states that have weak gun laws.

Is it easy to get a gun in Toronto?

Miller: It's far easier than it should be. When there is easy availability, what you have is a cycle that some young men who are on the periphery of gun violence will get a gun to protect themselves. Everything gets worse. When you make it hard to find a gun, which is what we're trying to do, the situation becomes much better.

A lot of people understand your battle, but others look at the optics and say, 'Here you are coming after legal gun owners when you should be concentrating on those who have guns illegally.'

Miller: I have three comments in response to that. A legal gun owner just last week [had 125 guns seized from] a basement apartment in the Beaches area of Toronto. That's unacceptable. That kind of risk happens all too frequently. Imagine if the tipoff had gone to a gang instead of police? That would be a huge arsenal on the streets of Toronto. [Under] Canadian laws today, literally there is no limit on the number of guns somebody can own, if they've got a permit.

The second comment I'd have is, very tragically, John O'Keefe [who was shot earlier this year on Yonge Street] was killed by a gun that was in the possession of a legal owner who was apparently coming back from his gun club. And that's one murder too many in my city as far as I'm concerned.

And what we're proposing would have prevented that murder. There is no doubt about that. John O'Keefe would be alive today and his son would have a father today if these measures had been adopted.

My final comment … if you look at the city ranges, there's been quite a bit of discussion about it, and some of the comments you have quoted have just said it was a gesture. Well it certainly isn't.

Union Station is the biggest transportation hub in Canada. You're not allowed to take a large tube of toothpaste onto a plane at Pearson [airport], how on earth in that kind of climate could we allow gun owners to be walking around a place where 80,000 people come through the doors each day? That is, from any perspective, unacceptable.