The following is a transcript of CBC correspondent Nahlah Ayed's interview with Lebanon President Emile Lahoud.

Emile Lahoud (CBC)

Nahlah Ayed: Mr. President, just a couple of days ago Hassan Nasrallah said that it's time for this conflict to move to the next phase. I'm just wondering what you think will happen if Hezbollah hits Tel Aviv.

Emile Lahoud: Believe me I don't know exactly what Hezbollah is thinking. Believe me. Nobody knows. And that's what makes its strength, because when there is a resistance — we've been taught that in the United States, I did the war college there — it's a secret thing. You don't know where they are, you don't know how they think, and you can't catch them. And that's why really we don't know when he talks about the next stage. I don't have an idea.

Nahlah Ayed: What would be the consequences of such an attack in your mind?

Emile Lahoud: That's why I'm saying you must have a quick ceasefire, because the more the Israelis escalate — the things they're doing now, it's not done in the 21st century, when they use smart bombs against civilian buildings, when they use phosphorus bombs and right now they're investigating about it, when they're throwing three tonne bombs on one building — well all this is not allowed.

So what I'm saying, you should have a ceasefire as quickly as possible because force will bring force, and there will be a cycle of violence so nobody knows what will happen; it will be really a catastrophe like it is now in Lebanon. That's why I'm saying that we should think about stopping the fire instead of thinking what will happen next. We must stop it and start to talk.

Nahlah Ayed: But the U.S. and a number of other players are saying a ceasefire is not enough, it's a bandage solution, that there has to be more thought put into a bigger plan into how to maintain a ceasefire, the peace. What do you think of that?

Emile Lahoud: Well, they thought that in the first few days, that they will finish with Hezbollah and they will kill Hassan Nasrallah. What happened? They didn't do anything. To go inside a village now, they've stopped the land occupation, because they had a lot of casualties. So they're saying for the people to go out of the village, and they want to demolish it with aircrafts. Do you think that has been done ever in a war? I don't think so. I've read history of wars, never in the world they say to a village go out and then we demolish it and then we go in — what's this war?

Well, what is happening now it's something that will go to infamy in history, and now people are not thinking about that, they're worried about themselves. But this is making really very bad feelings against Israel and especially against U.S. with backing Israel. Because when they talk about a ceasefire, now many of the European countries, Arab counties want to have a ceasefire, U.S. no — like you're saying we have to wrap it up as if it was something an easy thing, a baby, you wrap it up and go on. It's not.

Meanwhile they are demolishing, they have all the country, they're having mass destruction. And Hezbollah, believe me, they're becoming stronger and stronger. They had only statistics yesterday in a very serious newspaper in Lebanon: 86 per cent of the Lebanese now back Hezbollah, all the Arab world now, the population are with Hezbollah. And the more it goes, the more it becomes, why? Because for the first time, a small group in a little Arab country could face Israel, whereas in six days, Israel defeated all the Arab countries. Now it's the 17th day, and they can't do anything. But meanwhile, civilians are being killed, our infrastructure is being hurt, and really the damages are so big it will take now years to have it back as it was before.

Nahlah Ayed: Why is Hezbollah doing so well in your opinion?

Emile Lahoud: Because they believe in their cause. They're ready to die for their country, for their beliefs. All they're asking, they're saying we have three prisoners we want to exchange. And they did it, the Israelis, last time. But this time they had prepared everything, maybe in a bigger political policy for the whole Middle East, they thought they started by Lebanon, every time it's Lebanon that gets it. So, what is happening is bad for everybody because the more they, I mean [they're] attacked the more they become strong, and the only way as we're talking, everybody the government and all, is to have a ceasefire and talk about all these things, and everything is negotiable. But just to go on thinking they can end Hezbollah like this, they're not going to. But they're going to destroy the country.

Nahlah Ayed: Do you think it's realistic they could actually come out the victors here, I don't mean militarily but otherwise?

Emile Lahoud: Hezbollah?

Nahlah Ayed: Yes.

Emile Lahoud: If they can get — believe me, Hezbollah, if they get what they're asking for, whether the prisoners or the Shebaa and the maps of the [land] mines, they don't have any more reason to go on and fight. Now, they say we want to take their weaponry out, if you take their weaponry out there are other problems in the Middle East that are affecting Lebanon, and this is something, a subject nobody is talking about.

I talked about it the first time in Moncton in 1999, and many of the countries that were at the summit, they say, "Why you say such a thing, if you go on talking about this they will kill you." I said, "I must do what is best for my country." And this is the Palestinian problem, which has been the real reasons of the civil war that we had.

And just a few words about, you see, there are about 500,000 refugees, and they live in very poor miserable conditions, they don't have anything to hope for, so they become desperate, and at the birth rate three times more than the Lebanese, in 20, 30 years, they'll be more than Lebanese. We cannot afford it, and that's why we're saying, there's the Resolution 194 which is much before 1559, it should be implemented, and have the right of the Palestinians, which says they have the right of return. But Israelis don't want to hear about that.

Well if they succeed now in subduing Hezbollah, and they go back to as they said a few days back, that they're going to take back Lebanon 20 years behind, that was like during our occupation in '82, well what will happen then? The Palestinians will be settled here, Israel will be happy. The U.S. will be happy for Israel, and everything, no we cannot accept that. All we're saying, now, stop the fire, we'll talk about the maps, the prisoners, and Shebaa farms, we'll finish that, things will be much better, and then have a global, just peace for the Middle East in which the presence of the Palestinians must be solved in Lebanon, and then there is no more reason for Hezbollah to be there.

Nahlah Ayed: A lot of people among Lebanese blame Hezbollah for starting all of this; they don't look at this as a problem of the Palestinians or anything like that, they say that Hezbollah started this by taking those two soldiers. What do you say about that?

Emile Lahoud: I know now, yesterday they had and you can look in Al-Safir [a Lebanese newspaper] which is a serious newspaper, 86 per cent of the Lebanese now back Hezbollah. So what Israel is doing at the start, maybe some Lebanese thought like this, but now all Lebanese are backing Hezbollah.

Nahlah Ayed: But there are people with very strong opinions who say in fact Israel is doing what they've always wanted; they feel that there should not be an armed militia acting in a country that is sovereign and with its own army.

Emile Lahoud: Well believe me they are very few. Because for internal politics, some people would like that, because maybe that they think it will go back to '82. In '82, if you remember, there was an invasion. President was elected, a parliament couldn't be elected, because there was a war, and what happened? Only two years later Israel had to run away to the south, and it stayed for 20 years until Hezbollah drove Israel out of Lebanon. It will not work.

There's a known proverb, they say you, if something, it's normal in French they say, chasse de normale, il revient au galop, which means, you throw away the normal thing, it will come back running. In Lebanon, Israel cannot have an influence. Believe me, the best thing now is to stop these ideas about under fire to dictate conditions of Israel. It will not work. Now they're using aircrafts again, and they can, use, kill the people they want, they make I mean threats to everybody, that we can get you everywhere, we know, they can get us everywhere, but they cannot get all Lebanon.

Nahlah Ayed: But Israel has had an influence here, you've lost more than 600 civilians, you've lost the airport, you've lost some major infrastructure, half the capital is destroyed. How can you say that Israel has had no influence here?

Emile Lahoud: You see, Israel can destroy Lebanon. But it will never have an influence on the people of Lebanon. That's different. As I was saying yesterday, they can hit us, kill us, but we will never kneel, because we've seen what happened when Lebanese knelt in the past, what happened to Lebanon.

Nahlah Ayed: So if that's the case, then I'm curious why is it that your army is not getting involved in this conflict?

Emile Lahoud: Our army now, if it goes into action, they have known positions, and Israel can wipe them out with their aircraft in one day. So they're there to be if there is any invasion, any I mean going inside Lebanon, then they will fight on the ground, and they're very good at it, and they will do their duty.

Nahlah Ayed: So if there is a ground invasion?

Emile Lahoud: Of course the Lebanese will take part in the action against Israel.

Nahlah Ayed: Are they, how equally matched do you think the Lebanese army and Hezbollah would be against Israel with all their smart bombs and all that as you mentioned?

Emile Lahoud: You see, that's why I used to say when I was commander in chief of the army, I used to say the army is responsible for the hinterland. But in the areas it was occupied, when the army couldn't go in, it's the job of the resistance. And that's how we could liberate our land. And the resistance worked in a very clever way, so that they couldn't catch them, they couldn't know where they are, and we won. Most of our land came back. The same thing I say now: The army is to work at the defence in the hinterland, but something to do with Israel, you must have somebody you cannot catch, which is Hezbollah. They cannot catch, they don't know where it is, they don't know what they think, and believe me, nobody knows except the resistance.

Nahlah Ayed: So then, if that's the idea, then why not accept 1559 — UN resolution 1559 — and have the Lebanese army secure the south. What's wrong with that idea?

Emile Lahoud: Well you see the 1559, was being discussed by a national committee, we called it the dialogue committee. And they solved all these problems, they talked about Shebaa [Farms], there was still the weaponry of Hezbollah, and how the army could take part, etc., this subject you're talking about. And the next meeting was supposed to be the end of this month. But Israel didn't want us to get a consensus on that. So they attacked, but by attacking, now they make the consensus between Lebanese against Israel.

Nahlah Ayed: But don't you think it's an unusual thing to have an armed body of any kind, whatever you want to call it, the resistance or militia, inside a country that already has its own army. Don't you think Hezbollah in some ways undermines your army?

Emile Lahoud: Well, we are, this is something that abroad they don't know about. We are in a state of war with Israel, and Israel has a much stronger army than Lebanon. The only way, to be able to face Israel is to have a resistance, and the proof, it worked. And now, if it weren't for the resistance, Israel would be in Beirut. And would have the same catastrophe that we had in '82. It would take another two years fighting the Israelis to take them out. And we don't want to repeat that.

Nahlah Ayed: What do you personally think of Hassan Nasrallah?

Emile Lahoud: Hassan Nasrallah, all Lebanese respect him and I respect him, because he gave his son to the, for his land. He doesn't care about material things. He's thinking about getting back the rights of his country. He comes from the south, the south has been occupied for 20 years, he did everything until he could liberate the land. All Lebanese respect him. We have two [Hezbollah] ministers in the government, and we are in touch with these two ministers, and believe me, if you ask any Lebanese they will say, and especially the Arab population, they will say we respect Hassan Nasrallah.

Nahlah Ayed: Have you had a chance to speak to him during this crisis?

Emile Lahoud: No. There is no contact with him. The only contact is with the ministers of Hezbollah and the government … Two days, three days ago, there was a deliberate attack on the observatory force, where four officers, one of them Canadian, was killed. Well. Why? You tell me that by mistake? Be sure no. Because they get a few feet away any point they want to hit. It was made because we believe that two days before Mr. [Kofi] Annan said we must have an immediate ceasefire. They don't like it, they hit the UN.

But nobody said anything, until now. Why? Because I don't know if you know the story of Qana; Qana, in 1996, they run away, all the refugees, because the regions were getting hit in the south, and they hit the compound of the UN knowing there are children, elderly and women, and there were killed more than 150 of them, massacred. Until now nobody reprimanded Israel. Is that the way to be just in the 21st century? Is that the way to talk about the democracy and the new Middle East they're talking about? No, I don't think so. They're using all this talk, just to have a monopoly of the whole region. Well, they cannot have it. They can take us dead, but they will not be able to subdue us, be sure about that.

Nahlah Ayed: You're very angry right now.

Emile Lahoud: Of course! Because you know, now I will show you out there, only a mile from here, how they've brought everything on the ground. How they've killed my people. And do you think that anybody can accept that? It makes you so mad inside. If it does to me, what about these people who have got their children, their brothers all killed. Do you think they're going to forget that? Do you think they will [have] peace in the Middle East if you kill them?

They're going to get their revenge. Well, all I'm saying, don't get to the point of no return, because if you get there, believe me, they will not hear anybody anymore. They want to die, and when they want to die they don't care about anything. And then you have havoc everywhere in the whole region. We don't want to get that.

Nahlah Ayed: Just one more thing. Different people blame different countries for all this. A lot of blame is going in Syria's direction and Iran's direction. What do you think?

Emile Lahoud: Well, I can tell you one thing. They can say what they want about Iran, Syria and all, but who are fighting here? They are only Lebanese. There are no Syrians, no Iranians, and they're asking what? The rights of Syrians or Iranians? No. They're asking the rights of Lebanese, they're asking for their prisoners, they're asking for their land, they're asking for the maps, and in the long run, for the right of return of the Palestinians. So it's all Lebanese objectives. But propaganda is very well, they talk about it, and they forget that meanwhile, Israel receives smart bombs from the U.S., and these smart bombs are to be used against military, big military weaponry. They're being used on houses, on civilians, on children. Well how can you compare this to this?

Nahlah Ayed: Condoleeza Rice was here a couple of days ago, but she didn't make time to come and see you, how does that make you feel?

Emile Lahoud: Of course, they don't like me, because I say what I think. I'm not making diplomacy when they're killing my people. They don't like to hear that. So they dodge me. Well OK, let them. It doesn't matter with me, I don't feel sorry. On the contrary, they want to talk, they can talk with whomever as long as they ceasefire.

But I tell you when they find somebody who says exactly what they thinks, and exactly everybody in Lebanon knows that all our troubles started because of Israel. Everybody knows. By pushing the Palestinians here, by starting our civil war, seven times Israel went into Lebanon. Every day it overflies our land, every day it comes in our territorial waters, well, is this our fault? But some of them don't say it, because they know the U.S. is very powerful it can do many things, so they say let's be subdued and accept that. But I cannot.

Because I've been brought in the army to say what I think in an open mind. And at the beginning the U.S. helped me when I was in the army, when I said I need to have materiel but we don't have the money to pay, because as you know, they have deals in weaponry, they make money, I said I don't want. If somebody wants to give it to me for free he's very welcome. So who's going to give it for free? I said if they want to have after our war after Taif [agreement] to have a real national army, I think they have a good reason to help Lebanon. And at the time, the U.S. gave me trucks, M113s, Jeeps for nothing. I mean 100 dollars a jeep, 200 dollars, only symbolic price.

And with these things are still working since then, that has been since 1990, we didn't buy anything new, just to prove to the Lebanese at the time, politicians and all, that we could do a national army without making money out of that, and this I why it has become a strong respectable national army. So, these things were all right. But after that, when I said we must back the resistance, the U.S. didn't like it, and then after that they started saying well, you are re-elected. Okay I was re-elected according to the law made in constitution, which is exactly like my predecessor … and nobody said anything about my predecessor. But now they're looking for something, they can't find corruption, they can't find anything, so they say, oh you must think twice about being, I mean in office, because he was re-elected. Well, I was re-elected in a rightful, according to the constitutional way, and I'm staying until the end of my mandate, which is after one year.

Nahlah Ayed: Well, the Americans feel actually that you're also too close to Syria. And it's obviously, you know, what Syrian and American relations are like, and they are actually blaming Syria for this crisis. What role do you think Syria should have in solving this crisis.

Emile Lahoud: You see, they don't like me because I'm 100 per cent against Israel. Syria is against Israel. So they say, well, he's the friend of Syria, he's the surrogate of Syria, he's the man of Syria. Believe me the Syrians know and everybody knows I'm not the man of anybody. I was the only commander in chief that was nominated at the time. They didn't know — the Syrians — before I was nominated. But what happened is that as they saw me going along building the army, the Syrians respected me, and believe me, the U.S. doesn't like me, doesn't like [Syrian] President [Bashar] Assad, because he says like me what he thinks about Israel. No, they want people like some in the Arab world to say we accept anything because you are the stronger. We cannot do that because in the long run the population of Lebanon and Syria will be against us.

Nahlah Ayed: What should Syria do to contribute to ending this conflict?

Emile Lahoud: They must ask Syria — until now nobody asked her, if they want to help. And believe me, if they want to do things right, there will be a lot of help from all the region not only from Syria. But they want to solve things by force. Now 17 days. So what. They'll go another week of destruction? And now they're threatening everybody that they're going to, what you call, bring villages down to the ground by bombing by aircrafts, and that they were saying yesterday they're going to make a landing, and they're going to hit all bridges and everything. Is that the solution? If they want to kill all Lebanon, okay.

But if they want Lebanon to live and to be democratic and to be like they want the new Middle East, this is not the way. Let's sit around the table and talk. They don't want that, because they know very well we have rights, they should give it back to us, and they don't want to. They think by using force they will subdue. We see what happened in Palestine. Well they say about the new Middle East is for democratic reasons. Well a government was elected, now they don't want that government. But you said we have elections, and after he's elected you don't want it anymore? Why, because you don't like that government? It doesn't work that way.

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