INDEPTH: BALKANS
Goran Stoparic
CBC News Online | April 2, 2004
This is an edited transcript of the CBC field interview by Carol Off with Goran Stoparic about the events in Podujevo during the Kosovo conflict.
PART 1: THE KILLINGS
Goran, first of all can you tell me about your longer career in the military? Tell me how long you were in the police, and what had been your job before 1999?
I had taken an active part in combat operations since 1991, that is to say since the Vukovar front. I joined the special forces, the Scorpions, in 1993 and I was active there until the signing of the Erdut Accord which brought about the peaceful reintegration of Slavonia-Baranja and Western Srem into Croatia, in other words when they came under Croatian control. That is when I resigned my commission and never again did I take part in any operations, neither army nor police until 1999.
Can you tell me how you came to be in Podujevo on March 28, 1999?
Well, along with the rest of the Scorpions, I arrived in Prolom Banja, which was some sort of logistical base of operations, probably because it was close to Podujevo.
We spent a few days there - we weren't even told where we were headed. I mean we knew that we were going to Kosovo, but not precisely where until the order was given. Even as we were boarding the bus, we were unaware that the final destination would be Podujevo. Only once we had reached Djavolja Varos were we told that we were heading for Podujevo, and that Podujevo was controlled by Serbian forces - one half of the city actually - and that we would be engaged in gaining control of the other half. That's how I found out that I was going to Podujevo and that is how I ended up there.
So you arrived in Podujevo, what time of day?
It was 11 [at night] perhaps, well in any case it was too late to go into action right away. That is precisely why that order came to look for lodging, and then we were meant to start early next morning…
Can you tell me what happened from the time that you were on the buses in Podujevo to when you arrived at the house you stayed at?
First of all we stopped beside the police station in Podujevo. However, we didn't stay there long, we pressed on further to the centre of the city. That's when they told us to get out of the buses, as we made an easy target for NATO planes whilst still inside. If someone were to notice that the bus was full of soldiers, they would have been able to take us out relatively easily. That's why it was considered safer to separate, precisely because of the NATO bombing. That was in fact the only reason why we left the bus in the first place.
We scattered around the houses, but there was no one in that sector except for the police. After half an hour or so they sent us to that street, where there were police already, with orders to find lodging for the night in that street and then in the morning we would begin the operation.
And presumably once we should have found adequate accommodation, all the commanding officers would have been summoned to a meeting and the details of that scheduled morning attack would have been worked out. And so along with all the others, basically that was supposed to happen…
Since very few of the veteran members of the unit were actually there with us, they made up only a part of the unit. The rest were newcomers, and they didn't even know how to behave in the field and on the frontline, and they especially didn't know what to do when confronted with civilians, and so everyone scattered in groups to look for a place to sleep, while in fact only their commanding officers should have gone to find lodging and then call for the rest of the soldiers to join them, to settle down, unpack and so on.
In the event, that is not what happened, rather everyone wandered around in groups… Only Tomic and I stuck to the rule in fact, so the two of us and maybe two more soldiers from our unit, but they walked in our rear. One of them was Nebojsa Sekic, he always went with us, he was a man we trusted, while the rest of our men stood there, in the middle of the street, waiting for us to sort everything out.
In that reconnaissance, looking around the houses, I came upon that backyard where the crime took place and I noticed people coming in and out, so I went in, if nothing else then to find out if a unit had already taken lodging there, and if so to move on… That is what happened until that moment.
So tell me what happened, you went into the garden, and what did you see there?
When I entered the yard, there were two soldiers there already, and there was, I think, a policeman in his blue uniform but as I didn't talk to him so I don't remember him that well.
I entered a room, and one of the doors of that room was in fact very close to the place where the executions took place of those civilians. So I went in and it was clear at a glance that the inhabitants had fled only shortly before our arrival, perhaps only 20 to 30 minutes before. I left the room and then I saw in another backyard a group of civilians being escorted by soldiers - soldiers, that is to say Scorpions.
In that moment I recognized Sasa Cvjetan leading them. I recognized…the little one, Cicko, who also showed up. I recognized Dragan Medic, I cannot remember if Olujic was there or not and then Dragan…what was his last name, I do not recall… Anyway there were several other Scorpions escorting those Albanians, and they brought them to a wire fence, which had already been cut inside the same backyard where I stood watching.
Then the kid, the youngest member of our unit, began searching this man. He was an older man, the only male among the adults, and there were children there, but I did not see how many boys or girls were among them. So while he searched this man, this older gentleman, we did not react, we allowed him to proceed with the search. But once he had turned to the women and the girls and began searching them, then Tomic was the first to react and he told him, "Listen kid, stop that, let the women be!" And then the three of us came to an agreement, he and I and this other soldier Cekic, and there was someone else with us but I cannot remember, we agreed to take them out into the street.
We all agreed that was the best course of action, since we didn't really know what the procedure was, nor what we were supposed to do or where we should send the civilians. We just knew that they had to be moved away somewhere, and so that 's what we did and we took them out into that passage, which resembled a tunnel between two houses, and then we directed them to the left, in the same direction whence we had come, in fact, where our buses were also parked. It made sense since that is where Commander Boca was located, as well as Dutinac and all the rest of the higher-ranking officers and that they would know what to do with them in such a situation.
The safest thing was simply to get them off our hands and they would then send them further on. And they hadn't really gone too far, they were perhaps 50 or so metres away. Tomic and I were at that moment looking across the street for a suitable building, since we had decided not to take any of the surrounding houses of which there were several available to be occupied and used as sleeping quarters.
As we had decided not to take any of the buildings surrounding that yard and there were two [or] three houses looking onto that backyard. It was built so that you could see everything, and as there were civilians present there and we supposed that there must be more of them. Since we had been told that we controlled half of the town, we assumed that on the other side there would be no civilians, although further up the street we did see a few people with bags running about over there, scared-looking, trying to get away.
Then a woman from that part of the street appeared with two bags, to our right, shouting "I'm a Serb, I'm a Serb!," and so she passed by and then someone shouted, from in front of the Albanians, it was one of the police though I don't know who since there was a large group of them standing over there. Among them were SAJ members, PJP and Scorpions so that I am not sure who shouted: "Why are you taking that outside, take it back to the houses! Tomorrow when we start, we start, and whoever happens to be there, so be it!"
That's literally what was said. Those women probably knew what was said, they probably understood Serbian and so they turned around, and started walking back, although that man, the older gentleman, was separated and I saw some commotion around him. Some of our troops and police surrounded him, SAJ members, Scorpions, I am not sure exactly, while the women with the children returned, passed us by and once again entered that tunnel-like passage [between the houses] and reached the backyard.
Tomic and I did not react since we did not perceive any danger. It never even occurred to us that something could happen to the women and children. After a minute, minute and a half, we heard scattered machine gun fire. So they just needed to line them up against that wall and they shot them right away. Perhaps someone in that yard heard that commotion outside, which is also a possibility, maybe someone heard that man shout "Why are you taking them outside, take them back, and tomorrow when it's time to go, it's time and whoever happens to be here, so be it!" It is quite possible that someone in that yard heard that command and interpreted it in the worst possible way and killed them all. So I heard, first of all only one, that's quite clear, only one of them started shooting first, I don't know who, and then the rest joined in that firing, which lasted some 50-60 seconds. But while the firing was still going on, I immediately ran inside, I guessed what was happening instantly and after only a couple of steps I already saw the left part of the yard since that part of the tunnel is around four metres long.
But in that moment Sica - that was the nickname of my friend Tomic - grabbed me by the arm shouting: "Stop you fool, don't get your hands dirty!"
I guess he thought that I was going to join in the execution. So we continued together, he was still holding my arm, when out come running Dabic and Smilic. But they weren't coming from the yard, there was a staircase to the left which led to the upper part of the house and that is probably where they had been standing while everything was taking place.
They were the first to exit, and they left without a word, although it was clear from their facial expressions that something had gone wrong. Following them came Cvjetan, Kulja or Medic, Dragan Borojevic and after him I also saw Demirovic. The first three were replacing their magazines. I am not sure if Demirovic was doing the same as he was slightly behind the others, so I could not see, as he wore a slightly different type of combat vest I know it was definitely him, but I could not see whether he was also replacing his magazine but he ran out onto the street with the other three.
Tomic and I followed them, and behind us more of the Scorpions came out of the house, but I was no longer paying attention. I knew what had happened, and I saw them leave and already outside one of the unit commanders, Olujic, had begun lining up his men, rather in a panic and the rest of us had begun lining up on self-initiative, those of us who were there, I would say around one-third of the Scorpions happened to be there. I didn't see the rest, they hadn't appeared yet. At that moment a soldier of the active SAJ showed up, I think that his name was Vuk, or his nickname in any case. He immediately ran inside the yard and after a short while carried out a child, a girl, and laid her down on the ground in front of us, and then a colleague of his made for the yard himself, but the other stopped him and said: "Don't, there's nothing to see there!" And then the colleague asked: "They haven't killed them all, have they?" "All of them," he said.
Then Dr. Dragan arrived and applied first aid. Boca and Dutinac also showed up, and quite a few of us had assembled by that time. Boca made no comment, he was silent, but Dutinac was very fervent in his comments and Vuk also spoke out once he had laid down the girl, he said: "You swine, you should all be shot!" Dutinac shouted: "You are not fit to work," in the sense that we weren't cut out for the job, that we were all abnormal. He wasn't referring to individuals but to us as a group.
I looked at the faces of the Scorpions and, well, I had seen them change their magazines and I assumed it had been them, there can be no argument. But I observed it in their faces, and I was not indifferent, I was even scared… Well, killing children, that is just not done, it's not human. Then Dutinac gave the order for the buses to be brought over and for us to get on.
However, the buses didn't leave immediately, we waited for something, I don't know what, probably for Boca and Dutinac to finish talking. On the buses we all reacted furiously and most of all Brka…his name was Djukic. He was sitting next to the driver, and he was shouting: "Who could have done something like that, what sort of idiot! I have three children myself!"
Dragan Medic, who was sitting two seats behind me, stood up all of a sudden and said: "It was me, Brka, and so what, shut up!"
Brka really fell silent after that, he didn't say another word. After that Nebojsa Cekic got up and began shouting, and at one point he even turned to me in a very harsh tone since I was the one who had telephoned him asking him to join the Scorpions, he said: "Is this why you brought me, to kill little children? This can only happen here! What is this?"
Then we heard a single shot. It was unclear who had fired it, whether it might be an ambush, or a sniper. In any case the driver got scared, started the bus and drove off to Prolom Banja. As soon as we had arrived in Prolom Banja we had some sort of…I guess you might call it a mutiny, a coup. Around 30 to 40 per cent of the people asked to be sent home immediately, that instant, that they didn't want to hear any more about Kosovo, nor Boca nor about the Scorpions or anyone else; that they hadn't joined up to kill children.
And so Boca spoke. I cannot quote him exactly, but he said something along the lines of: "Well, this is a war, what did they expect, people die…" He probably already knew who was involved, and so he tried to calm the situation down as he could see that people were demanding to go home.
What did they look like, what was their behaviour?
Everyone was frowning, people were upset, scared, and that confirmed to me that civilians had been killed, even though I had guessed that already. They were not indifferent, that much was clear from their faces, and even the perpetrators. Cvjetan, I remember, was red-faced, upset, hiding behind others in the line-up, while being tall such as he was, the military thing would have been to stand in front of the others. It was obvious that he was not indifferent, no one was, even those who had fired, not one face showed indifference, as much as I could see. Even three days after the event. It was terrible.
Did you see Dejan Demirovic come out of the garden?
Of course, he left together with the other three, I followed him. I saw Demirovic leave, he left in that group of four, following Dabic and Smilic, and Tomic and I went after him, so that I saw Demirovic when he joined the line-up. He was in that group, and he left with them, and later, in the stories told at Prolom Banja, his name kept cropping up. What's more, he and Cvjetan moved into a room together at the hotel, since we spent another few days there, the two of them shared a room from then on, even though before that time they never slept in the same room.
What do you think happened in the garden?
In my estimation, and based on the stories that I heard in Prolom Banja, and later, I think that Medic was the first to begin shooting, and that these other three idiots merely joined in.
So, they thought, well, the commander's brother is shooting, so why shouldn't we join in?
What surprises me is that they didn't shoot them right there and then when they found them, but took the trouble of taking them to that place. It is obvious that they had killed them, and it is obvious that the shooting was done by people of that calibre.
I mean considering that of such a large group of people only four or five children survived, indicated that the people who did the shooting have done so before, on other occasions, and that would be the four of them.
It is well-known that all of them, except for Dragan, Boca's brother who never had any problems with the law, but the other three had all had their problems. In the case of Borojevic, he had already been tried for murdering Croats in Croatia, in the former Republic of Srpska Krajina, but such were those courts that if the international observers failed to show up at a single session, the accused would be set free. But it is a fact that he savagely murdered several women in Western Slavonia. That fact alone indicates that they were ready for something like that, and the fact that more people did not survive, even though they had only been firing for one minute. Had the shooting been done by some other people, who barely knew how to hold a gun, then there would have been many more survivors.
You mentioned the ones you knew, what their past was, what did you know about Dejan Demirovic?
When I first got to know him in Prolom Banja…. I first met him on the bus that we took from Sid to the frontline, the bus took us from Sid to Boca's home, where we were supposed to meet with more people who would join us.
Demirovic was among those who walked out of Boca's home as we arrived, so he was a guest at his house, and Boca introduced both Cvjetan and Demirovic as experienced fighters, and we didn't know them until that point, they had never been with us before. And I could see in their posture, in the way that they wore their uniforms, with the buttons just so, it was clear that they had been soldiers for years, I knew that much about him…that they had a military posture, that they had worn a uniform for years, that much was clear.
As for Dragan, I knew more about him, he had been in the Scorpions before, and I also know the one who was in prison before for those murders. Borojevic, I knew him from before, and I knew that he had been a soldier for quite a while. On the other hand, I didn't know much about Demirovic, except for what he told us about himself later, and the people he said that he knew in Novi Sad, mostly people from the criminal underworld, so that I knew that he wasn't some sort of an A student, rather a marginal character. To be fair he never boasted as much as Cvjetan. Cvjetan always bragged, not only about this particular incident but other things that took place in Kninska Krajina while he lived there, where he was apparently in the "Alpha" centre under Captain Dragan for some time, though it is quite possible, judging by his demeanour, that he had been a soldier in some better unit. That can be discerned from the man, from the way that his boots are polished, things he must have learned in one of the more disciplined units. That is as much as I knew about Demirovic and Cvjetan, while I had known the other two for some time.
But when you say "experienced soldier" or "experienced policeman," do you think that an experienced soldier or policeman would go into a garden and kill women and children?
I commented on the way that they appeared. They were picture perfect with their very proper, military posture, nothing loose about them, and they certainly had previously taken part in combat, which would make them experienced, but the sickness of their minds was not apparent to me in their soldierly demeanour.
Why do you think that those four men shot the women and the children in the garden? What was their motivation?
In my opinion the only motive was the fact that the victims were Albanian, and perhaps some sort of inner immaturity or sickness of mind on their part. They would probably have killed them had they [the victims] been Bosnians or Croats, but it is certain that they were killed only because they were not Serbs.
PART 2: "FRESH MEAT"
They said that "Tomorrow we'll deal with them, tomorrow we'll send them back, we'll deal with all this tomorrow," do you think that if all of them didn't have to leave Podujevo at that point that there would have been more killing the next day?
Well, in any case, someone would have been killed, but maybe, maybe in the course of the night the civilians might have gone somewhere into the forest, perhaps there would have been fewer of them in the city, but that is a maybe.
What is certain is that there would have been more deaths had we performed the cleansing operation. The very practices of a cleansing operation would have ensured that, there would have been throwing of explosives and hand grenades into buildings and rooms, grenade launchers would have been used, especially if there should have been any sort, even minimal resistance, or not to mention had we taken any casualties, there would have been revenge. In any case there would have been more victims. Whether there would have been any children among them or not, I can't say, but people would have died.
There was a current saying that the Scorpions had been resting for four years, and that they now craved war, that was literally how the feeling was in Prolom Banja: we'd been on a strictly stand-by arrangement for four years, and we missed war - there would certainly have been bloodshed.
When you were arriving in Podujevo that day, on buses and in the street you said that there were a lot of people that were, you said that they were experienced but that they were a bit crazy. What was the feeling you had? Did you have a feeling that something might happen, that these guys were a bit out of control at all?
I even mentioned it to the commanding officer that some sort of selection procedure should take place. He entrusted me during those two, three days of rest while we waited for another busload to arrive, he entrusted me with providing basic training to those people who didn't have the hang of it, right there in the hotel.
That's when I mentioned to him that we should make some sort of selection, as I had noticed all sorts among them, some that were messing around with narcotics, even some boys, some youngsters who had never served in the army.
He said to me, "Don't be crazy, we can't turn them back home, we need bodies [literally: meat], can't you see that NATO is bombing, someone must also die."
I had nothing further to say to him after that. I wasn't worried about myself, since Tomic and I always took with us only men that we had picked ourselves, our men, around 25 to 30 of them, and I would never have anything to do with what any of the other units did, neither that of Olujic, nor Brka, so that their victims, and anything that they might do would not be my responsibility. We only took the best among them. And later, when we went to Kosovo, we proved that we can be soldiers, that is why I would charge headlong the way I did, even when I was wounded, to prove that. That basically those responsible for what happened were Boca and Dutinac, because there was no selection made, none at all - I guess the more tattoos you had the better soldier you had to be, I don't know.
Even today I find it hard to understand. To enlist a drug addict into an elite unit of the Serbian MUP (Ministry of Internal Affairs), one that was the pride of the MUP. I remember once when they asked me to lie that Gulja had fainted, what's a sick man like him doing in an elite unit? It's absurd.
When he says that he needed fresh meat, what does he mean by that?
That's military jargon, it means basically that someone has to die once NATO finds us; but more than anything it is his ego talking. After all what sort of commander would he be if he only had a few soldiers?
There was another, outside of the garden there was another woman that was murdered. Did you see that or did you learn anything about that other murder?
I only heard about that once we had reached Prolom Banja - it was Dragan Borojevic, he dragged her off to some room, probably the same one that I had entered before. And there he searched her, I heard he even squeezed some money out of her. I know that much, but only from stories told by those who had seen it, and there were many who witnessed it, those boys that left after us, and there were a few of them, who saw everything that happened, and they told me all about it later. In Prolom Banja, Tomic, who slept in the room next to mine, carried out some sort of investigation and he knew quite a lot about it, and he was extremely disillusioned about the war.
PART 3: AFTERMATH
What else, what did you learn, after you left and went back to Prolom Spa, and everyone was talking about this story, what did they say, what did you learn when you went back to Prolom Spa?
What did I hear? Well they basically admitted everything in their conversations with each other, and with others, they admitted to everyone. Borojevic even insisted that he had fired as well, something that he later denied, but only after I arrived in Sid, following my release from hospital, so only a year later he claimed that he had nothing to do with it, and that he didn't even see it happen. That cannot be the truth, and he is aware of it himself.
As for Cvjetan, he actually bragged about it. I met him once in Sid, in a bar, I saw him by chance, he was in town looking for someone who owed money to a third person, what you would call debt-collecting, and as I was sitting there with a friend, I recognized his voice, turned around, he recognised me and after wrapping up whatever business he had he came over and sat at my table.
He was a little drunk by then, as he said to me, "Hey buddy, it looks like Milosevic is going to fall…" that was just before those elections. "Most likely I will do some time [behind bars] for those Shiptars [Albanians]."
I said to him, "I don't know, I don't know what to tell you."
So that was his confession to me. Demirovic is the most perfidious of all of them, he always went to Boca's home, went everywhere with Boca until he got from him that money that he used to get to Canada, or wherever else he was headed, I am not sure if he went to Canada first. He denied everything later on, but he is the most perfidious, and it is certain that he took part. The only thing that surprises me about them, is that once we had moved onto Kosovo, Cvjetan didn't want to come along, while Demirovic and Borojevic did, Olujic also stayed behind, especially those who resigned in Prolom Banja itself, a busload full of people left then. It was in the air, we all knew who was responsible, and we didn't even want to talk to them, those of us who had feelings, who were normal, avoided all contact with them. I divorced my…well I wasn't yet married, but because of Cvjetan and Demirovic, I broke up with my fiancée. Tanja told me that much…
There is nothing to talk about with them, when you look at a man like that you can tell that he has fired on women and children. I couldn't sit in a bar with one of them and celebrate a birthday or something… neither I nor many others…they have lost that quality necessary for me to talk to a man.
When I visited him in prison, I felt extremely uncomfortable, not only had I lied for him, a man who is not related to me in any way, but he was the cause of my personal problems, because of him I had lost someone that I loved, so there was that pressure. And finally he was repugnant to me - so you can imagine how I felt. So as soon as I left that place I decided firmly, well I thought about writing to the judge to say that I had lied, but that would not have changed anything. Then I was worried that I would end up in prison because I had lied, even though my intentions were good, though I had acted wrongly. At that point I decided that if another chance came, if there was another trial, that I would tell the truth. Of my own will I organized all of this, I found Natasa, because it was impossible for me to literally go on my own and say I would like to testify! They would have thrown me out of the courtroom.
Just to go back to one point about Demirovic, you said that when he came out of the garden, he didn't change his magazine, the other guys did, did that give you any doubt that Demirovic was involved in the shooting?
No, what I said was that I didn't see him change his magazine, not that he didn't do it. I couldn't see him fully as they walked one behind the other, it was after all a narrow passage, so it would have been improper of me to say that I had seen him change it as well. I saw the three of them that came first, but I do not recall that detail, nor could I say that to the judge. But he was in that company, and we all knew instinctively that he had been involved in the shooting, though I know that is not evidence admissible in a court, but for me he will always be the killer of those children.
But you think that Boca gave him money to go?
I know that for a fact. Before the trial in Prokuplje, a man was supposed to pick me up in Ruma, to take me there, and in order to save him the trouble of coming all the way to Sid, we agreed that I would take the train there and he would pick me up at the station. So that's what I did, and I ended up in Ruma and where this young man who was also supposed to give evidence was, as well as the Chinese man who was supposed to drive us to Prokuplje.
However, I then received a call from one of Boca's brothers, not by birth that is, and he asked me where I was, and when I said Ruma, he said that was great because Boca was in Strenovci at his farm, which was some five kilometres from where I was, and that he was waiting for me.
So I went there, to his farm, and his family house where his brother Gulja lived with his parents. And as soon as we showed up, he attacked the Chinese man who was with us because it turned out that he and Cvjetan - before the latter went to prison for this crime - had taken money, some 10,000 DM to eliminate a certain man in Montenegro, as a result of which he was already in jail for planning this crime, which never took place since the two of them never made a move but went around spending the money.
Their spending habits aroused police suspicion and both of them ended up in jail for six months.
In the meantime this other trial began, and he was just moved to the Prokuplje prison.
So back to the point of all this. Boca attacked this Chinese man, shouting at him: "You idiot, it is because of you that he is in jail, if it hadn't been for you, he would have joined Demirovic over there!"
So by saying that he admitted that he had organized everything, and then he turned to me and said: "And you buddy, you know very well that a traitor won't carry his head around for too long!" That's exactly what he said. After that he just said goodbye and that was it, he didn't come with us.
Did you see Demirovic again before he went to Canada?
Yes, I saw him in Novi Sad. I was still with that girlfriend, and I lived in Novi Sad.
I had to wear those supports on my arms for a year, and one day I was passing by a café patio, and I saw him and Cvjetan sitting together, and I knew that they had been arrested for that crime at Podujevo, so I approached their table, and after the hellos they asked how my arm was and so on, and I asked when they'd been released from custody, and then they told me how they were interrogated, and that they were told, "Don't worry, just sign here, they were only Shiptars [Albanians] anyway. It's only for the record."
This all happened before the current government took power, Milosevic was still in power. Then they told me how Boca behaved, how he was always snorting something, and basically they told me that Boca was the one who had framed them, or not quite because framing someone implies that they were innocent to begin with, so it would be closer to the truth to say that he sacrificed them, in order to save his brother.
They lost sight of Borojevic, they had not known each other then, well Boca's brother knew Borojevic, as Borojevic had been a Scorpion before, but Demirovic and Cvjetan didn't have time to get to know Borojevic, or they just omitted mentioning his name because they did not know him, perhaps they just said that there was another, but couldn't remember his name, that is my assumption.
That's the last time I saw them, I didn't linger, but I could have asked them another thing or two, and I am sure that they would have told me everything, but Tanja [his girlfriend] got up and refused to sit with them once she realized who they were, she said: "Are these the ones who murdered those children?" She even called Boca and told him never to call me again.
She had found out all about it from that group of men who returned from Prolom Banja that first evening. They went to see her as soon as they arrived back, and she called me to say: "What are you still doing with those murderers?"
She was incredibly angry about that, and then I put her in a position where she was drinking coffee with these guys. She was really mad, so that because of her I didn't succeed in finding out everything from them, otherwise they would have confided in me completely. They would have told me all about the interrogation procedure, and their imprisonment, which lasted for about a month. That was the last time I saw Demirovic.
PART 4: IN COURT
You said that you decided that you wanted to tell the truth and found Natasa Kandic. How did you go about getting to the courtroom this week?
Six months ago I was speaking to a friend of mine who knew Natasa Kandic, and was in touch with her for some reason or another, which I still don't really know, even though he's been a friend of mine forever.
Once I had explained to him what was bothering me, he told me that the only thing I could do was to tell the truth in court, but he suggested that I should first get in touch with the Foundation for Humanitarian Rights, in particular with Natasa Kandic.
I knew as much about her as anyone else, through the jokes that were doing the rounds comparing her to Carla Del Ponte. They were the work of those so-called patriotic Serbian forces.
So I asked him if he had her telephone number, which he did, so I told him to call her and say that a member of the Scorpions wanted to talk to her. She happened to be in New York when he called, but she said that she would call as soon as she came back and that we should meet at once. However, her stay in New York dragged on for almost a month, and I had begun to doubt whether I would ever get to meet with her, but she was true to her word, and she called me from the airport as soon as she had landed.
I went to see her the next day, not at her office, but here in the city, in some restaurant, and I told her about the incident…I trusted her from the beginning and I immediately told her everything. She asked me what I expected from the court. I said I only expected that I would be treated leniently when it came to the punishment for my previous lies. She laughed.
After that we kept in touch, little by little, she even came to see me in Sid while we were preparing my testimony, not that she could give me any instructions as she wasn't present, but simply to help me prepare in the best possible way. I wasn't even sure if I would be summoned for this trial, whether by the prosecution or the defence.
I said to her that perhaps we should wait until the defence called me to testify since I had worked so well in their favour the last time, they would probably call on me again. She said that it wasn't certain, so she somehow arranged it so that all of those who testified at the previous trial would be summoned again.
Later she brought up the fact that I would be in danger here, but I explained to her that I was doing this because I wanted to, and that I would look after my own safety.
She said that was out of the question, and so she tried to arrange something with the American Embassy, I guess for me to move there, or something like that.
However, once I had written up the full story of the event, they wanted everything, from the beginning until the end, with and without the Scorpions, and the explanation they gave was that they weren't sure whether I had not broken the laws of warfare myself, or trampled on human rights by virtue of the simple fact that I was a commanding officer with the Scorpions. So I said to Natasa, it doesn't matter, we're going all the way, let's go to court.
If that's how you felt, then why on Monday when you came to court did you say you were sick and leave?
Because I had spoken with Boca, and because outside the courthouse I saw not only Boca's car, but also another with people whom I knew, and as I approached them they fled. I knew that this was my welcoming party, as they were suspicious of me.
So I went upstairs, and Boca explained to me quite clearly what the pros and cons of testifying were. He informed me what would happen if I told the truth, and what if I testified the way it suited him, in which case he would give me money.
I couldn't… I never even considered testifying the way I did the first time, I couldn't do that to myself. I had firmly determined to tell the truth, and that's what I was going to do, and if I couldn't do it in court, I would go to some TV network and do so.
What's more, I couldn't look that woman in the eyes if, after communicating with her for five months, and telling her the truth, I were to lie facing her in court. That would have made me no different from them. That was one thing. On the other hand, had I begun to testify the way that any man should, by telling the truth, I would have had no protection.
I had asked Natasa to arrange for the police to escort me as far as Slavija, and then I could look after myself, but that could not be arranged for some reason, and then I thought, as soon as I give my testimony, they would kidnap me, that was inevitable, so I improvised on the spot and pretended to be sick, so that I might get another chance when he wouldn't be expecting me, or until I found another way out, an exit through some other room rather than the one through which everyone left.
If I had initially had the security of knowing that I could leave by passing beside the judge, and then through a basement, then I would have testified there and then, regardless of whether he was there or not. That's the only reason. I improvised everything myself, even Natasa was unaware of everything, and she did not know whether I would give up or not.
When I left, I saw Boca out there, sitting in his Jeep with Manojlovic, talking, but he didn't expect me to come out so quickly, and so they weren't keeping a lookout for me.
So I made use of two policemen that were just leaving, I got in amongst them and passed by, and once I had caught up with the crowd by the railway station I knew I was safe. I walked around a bit and then I walked back just to check, and they were still there in front of the courthouse, they didn't suspect anything, they thought that I was still inside.
After that I went to the Foundation and waited for Natasa in her office until the trial was adjourned. She called the Foundation during recess to ask if I was there, and once they told her that I was, she understood why I had done that.
I had either the option of talking and then suffering for it without a chance of fighting back, or lying all over again, so I chose this middle course, where I would still have the option of testifying, but without the danger. Danger only lurked for me in the hallway, inside the courthouse and in its immediate surroundings. I have now managed to evade that, so all is well. Only two days were necessary in order to secure that.
PART 5: AFTER
So what is the United States going to do for you now? How can they help you?
I don't know. I really don't know. Apparently they have said that if I had any relatives in the States, that they were prepared to send me there, and they would cover all the costs, but I have no one there, no one at all.
My whole family, my parents, are from Republika Srpska, or Bosnia, and that's the only place where I have any relatives. So that is apparently the only way, if I should have someone to stay with until I found a job, or something, but I would need to have someone to stay with. Someone would have to accept responsibility for providing me with a place to sleep. That's how I understood it.
So what are you going to do now?
I don't know. I have been granted some sort of police protection for the duration of two months, since the law requires no more than that. After that I will have to think about it, I don't know.
Are you afraid?
No, I have just lifted a heavy weight off my chest. There is no place for fear. I have never really been fearful. Throughout my life I have suffered only when I have done something stupid, and never when I have done things right. I've only had to wait a little longer for the spiritual reward to materialize.
And what about the girlfriend, is she back again, the one that didn't like your past?
I don't know. I think that Natasa called her, but I didn't want to, though I am sure that she knows everything and that she has heard the story. I don't want to upset her or drag her into anything. She lives in Novi Sad, so she should be safe from these fools.
So she knows what you did?
Yes. She called my brother at home, asking where I was, but he didn't know. He could have called my cell, but I would have told him that I was in Pristina. I didn't want him to know anything yet, though I am sure that he suspects that I am in Belgrade.
How will your family react when they learn what you've done?
I have spoken to them, they knew that I had received the summons; they knew that I lied the first time. They have left the decision entirely up to me, they don't have the right to point me in any direction. My brother has two daughters, one is nine and the other two years old, and I think that he understands. He was someone who refused to take part in the war, and who refused to join the army after being called up into the reserves, even after all the applicable sanctions were applied and he almost ended up in jail.
How did you react when you learned that some of the children from that garden massacre had survived?
I saw one of the children that Vuk brought her out, and I found out all about those children later. As I mentioned, I was in hospital in Pristina for five days and then in Belgrade for the rest of the time and all the while Dr. Dragan was the one who looked after me, and I asked him all about it in the hospital. I even went to his home on several occasions and we became really close friends, and he is the one who told me that some of the children had survived. Well, in the beginning he was secretive, he wouldn't tell me anything, but I kept asking, at first only about that girl that I had seen them carry out, but fortunately after we left they found more children that were still alive. Later on he told me that there were more children, but he never told me the exact number, he just said that they were well, and he is the one who told me that they were abroad. I asked after them, and I hit upon the right man, as he was the one who applied first aid to them, and knew everything about them.
Were you in the hospital in Pristina at the same time that the children were there?
Yes, but what surprised me there was that the members of the special units had a separate ward all to ourselves, and we weren't even allowed to mix with the regular police, so that my movements were restricted and I couldn't really find out anything… And even had I known that they were there, it would not have been right for a Scorpion to pay them a visit when they were already suffering. Perhaps it would have seemed that I had come to finish the job. I certainly wouldn't have gone to see them, it would have been too difficult.
When you finished your testimony the other day, and you went back behind the wall in that room, the Albanians were there that had testified, did you talk to them, what did they say to you?
First of all they separated me from them, I sat at one end and they at the other. However, one of the policemen had earlier borrowed my lighter and hadn't returned it, so I was searching my pockets for a light, and then one of the Albanians, the eldest one of them wearing a long coat, noticed that I didn't have a lighter so he got up and lit my cigarette.
Meanwhile I noticed that the youngest one was talking to the rest of them and recounting what I had just testified to. I gathered that much from the fact that every few seconds they would turn to look at me.
Then as I was leaving one of them stood up and shook my hand, and I felt ashamed at that moment. I felt both happy and ashamed, while another one, the one whose entire family was killed, gave me a pat on the shoulder. I was really beside myself, I didn't know what to think and I couldn't wait to get into the car. I was both happy and ashamed, and I couldn't look anyone in the eyes, I just looked quickly and let my head sag. I am glad now that it happened, he's a man like me, but he has lost his wife, his father and four children… And just now, as they were leaving for Merdari, they asked Natasa whether I was safe or not, if someone was bothering me and if everything was all right with me.
Goran, why did you do it, you said in the court when they asked you why are you telling the truth now, why did you tell the truth the other day?
You mean after a whole year? Well, many things influenced my decision. I didn't do it to take some sort of revenge on anyone, I wouldn't have a reason to do so.
First of all they dragged me into court that first time to lie shamelessly, that is one thing.
Second, I did it for Tanja.
Third, for myself - I really believe that many things prompted me to do that, I decided it a long time ago, and I was firm in my decision, and I finally did it. I consider that I did the right thing, although I know that it wasn't the safest course of action. But I am convinced that two, three years from now people's outlooks will change, they must.
The Germans have conserved one of the ruined churches in the heart of Berlin as a monument and put up a plaque saying that, "This is so that we might never forget and that this might never happen to us again." So why shouldn't we Serbs say "We killed them, so we shall make a monument in their honour in order to remind us that this should never happen again"?
Those that have killed Serbs should do the same, and then everything would be well. We don't have to live together, but we cannot avoid travelling beside each other, so why should we have to wear bulletproof vests every time that we have to pass by each other? I am aware that I was dragged into the war by a crazy delusion, by a media campaign and I am one of thousands of Serbs who bought that story. And just as I had begun to understand that, I was caught up in all this euphoria and I was unable to extricate myself from the whole thing.
You've described how dangerous it is for you now you've made this great moment of telling the truth, how do you feel about Dejan Demirovic living in Canada, applying for refugee status, having a job, living with his family. How do you feel about Dejan Demirovic living his life in Canada, while you are here in fear?
That's a good question. I think we covered that in our off-the-record conversation earlier. I don't know, I have a feeling that he won't stay there, but those western countries are strange in their implementation of democracy.
I am 90 per cent sure that he will stay in Canada, and that he will never end up on trial here, nor will he ever be sentenced, that is my opinion…the reason is that Canadian authorities will probably require some sort of incontrovertible evidence that perhaps only Cvjetan could provide, and probably because of their desire for some sort of democracy. Who knows what sort of story he has told over there. I believe that he will remain there and I doubt that he will ever answer for what he did here. The only hope remains that he might end up in The Hague, but that is possibly too small a crime for them.
If you could make something happen to Dejan Demirovic, what fate would you like him to lead?
Well, it is unlikely that God has intended for him any sort of successful career. Murder is the most severe crime, not only under human law, but I am sure in God's eyes too, but I don't know. For my part I don't personally wish him any harm, but I would like him to show up here and answer for what he did, even if he only gets five years in jail. But I highly doubt that will take place, I don't know. Maybe they will even sentence him in Canada, but I doubt it.
You know, I asked Saranda, one of the children who survived, I asked her the same question, and she said also that she doesn't want anything bad to happen to him, she just wants him to face justice.
We'll see, it's possible. Even in Serbia justice is sometimes possible, once every 50 years or so.
When you gave your testimony, when you said the truth, and Sasa Cvjetan was sitting there, what did you think of his reaction, did you look at him, did you get a feel for how he was tense, what did you think of Cvjetan's reaction to your testimony?
I got the feeling that he was indifferent to me. He knows who he is. He is only defending himself because he feels that if he gives in, then he must also mention those other names, and he will go to jail without ever mentioning those other names, in my opinion. He knows that he has to answer for what he did, that is inevitable, and even had I not spoken out, the testimony of those girls would have been sufficient.
He will get those pitiful 15 years which is the maximum here for such a crime, and as much as I could gather in the courtroom he will not get any less than that, but I would have sentenced him to life imprisonment…
But really I don't spend too much time thinking about him these days. I am taking a nice break right now, watching telly, I never let the remote out of my sight, though I don't watch the news… I don't think about him, I only hope that he stays in prison as long as possible, not because of me - he will never be able to do anything to me - but for the sake of those children, and for that matter, other children as well, because there were many like them. And I would like him to be sentenced by a Serbian court, not in The Hague, but right here.
Do you have any plans at all, what are your plans, where do you see your life going?
No. I am still not thinking about that. I am a man who makes decisions quickly, so I cannot think about that right now, but I am sure that the day will come when I will have to do so. At this point I really don't want to think about what I will be doing tomorrow, let alone in six months. I would like to take everything in first of all. I really don't think about that, and I will make plans once I feel that the time is right and that something must be resolved. We shall see. It depends on the circumstances.
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