Student Input
Education Minister Kelly Lamrock says he wants to give students a greater say in the school system. He will, for example, create a seat on each District Education Council for a student representative. But potential candidates, take heed: if you want a tussle with the minister, he'll give as good as he gets, as young Brandon Pike of Nackawic Middle School recently found out.
Brandon emailed Lamrock to criticize some cuts in the school system and ended up in a lengthy back-and-forth with the minister, an exchange Brandon has posted to Facebook. With Brandon's permission, Spin Reduxit reproduces it here, complete with the typos and errors that appear in the original:
Dear Kelly Lamrock,
It has come to my attention that there is a possibility that you may be laying off some of the support staff of the schools of NB. I strongly disagree with thisoption. The support staff of the schools in NB is a very important part of the school community. Cutting the funding to the library is a very childish thought, when students use these books, and from using these books, children can read more therefore increasing their literacy mark. Laying off School Intervention Workers, also I believe, is not a well planned idea. Also there's no reason why there isn't enough money for funding. School Intervention Workers can take high-maintenance students off the teachers hand and without them the classroom will become a much worse learning environment. With high maintenance they will disrupt the class making it difficult to focus. When there is a student that is not able to cope in the classroom, the intervention worker is there to take the student, work with them and hopefully they are able to come back to class. If these people were not there, the disruptive student is affecting my learning as well as the 20 + students in the class. Why take this away from all of us, it is not fair. Not fair to the behaviour students and not fair to the other students.
To begin, suspending funding to the libraries is pointless. At my library in my middle school there are multiple extra-curricular actives that take place. Losing the library would eliminate these activities. The library has many books that students can get books from to read. From reading we can learn new words, and increase our literacy performance. The library is used very much in every school. Many students love reading and with the funding going to the library being deserted, students will not get the books they want but need to increase there literature marks.
Second, when I'm having a bad day I know exactly where to go in school, to Mrs. Geiger's office. She is our School Intervention Worker that is doing an excellent job. She is very welcoming and has a connection to our school community. Almost every student in our school knows if they need someone to talk we have Mrs. Guiggey. The intervention worker in every school is specially trained to make a student's day better so if they are having a bad day and aren't performing well. Well, Mrs. Guiggey can change that and make their day better and increase there performances dramatically. They may be using up class time,but there making the performance for the rest of the day that much better.
Thirdly, funding. My school has a population of 150 approximately. We can barely raise $4000 from school-wide fundraisers. So our school is falling through the cracks. We have science books and math books that are extremely old. Our grade 8 math books our being replace for next year. My current textbook in social studies is from the 90s and is that nice to look at or to learn from. Our school has only 2 of the 12 class that don't have a smart board, but we have old books. This is horrible. Our resources our being wasted on smart boards when we really need new books, but for some reason Nashwaaksis Middle School has 900 students and each student from grades 7-8 has a laptop and each class has a smart board. My school and many other schools are falling through the cracks because we are smaller schools that our getting less funding. We our all students and I deserve my education as much as a kid going to Nashwaaksis Middle. Nashwaaksis doesn't need the funding like some other schools do. Many small schools in small towns our falling through the cracks. This isn't fair to any student of New Brunswick or Canada. You are not giving your students what they deserve.
To conclude, many schools in NB are falling through the cracks this isn't fair. Cutting funding to libraries, eliminating support staff, and the unequal amounts of funding going to schools, we our going to lose the kids in my school and many other schools across NB. We all need to take a stand on this. Every student deserves the opportunity to learn, but this must be given to them. That is your job. You can not change the past, but you can change the future. You have the control of the education for thekids NB and they are our future teachers, business owners, carpenters, engineers, architects, minister of educations etc. they can do it, but you need to give them that opportunity.
You've took early French immersion, but you will not take this from us, our dreams.
Brandon Pike
District 14
Nackawic Middle School
Lamrock response:
I appreciate that, and certainly value the support staff's work.
As you may also know, after 2 years of record funding increases, this year's budget removed 2.7mil from my budget, representing half of the hours of library assistants and behaviour mentors.
I made a proposal to unions to provide some flexibility on class size reductions. While it would have only meant about 5% of classes having an extra student, it would have saved 10mil and allowed me to avoid layoffs.
The unions rejected this offer. I am disappointed and surprised that CUPE leadership opposed a deal to save their members' jobs, but I cannot print money--i needed help to find alternatives.
The teachers' union did predict, in rejecting that offer, did state that they believed that the 14million we will spend reducing class sizes would leave teachers with more time to help on tasks like cataloguing library books. I hope they're right.
I also believe that the record 130mil increase we gave the system in the last two years -- increases that led to 600 new teacher positions, a 12% increase in books, 110 new phys ed and music teachers, 15mil more for special needs services and 12mil in literacy grants for teachers will help offset the fact that we are asking schools to catalogue books with half as many hours. I do believe the 130mil in new services can offset the 2.7 mil in efficiencies we have asked for in the recession.
In the end, it is not me who needs to be convinced of the value of these services. In a year when government actually has less revenue, we increased the school budget by 21mil. And when that increase was eaten up by salary hikes and class size reductions, I proposed a deal to unions to save those jobs. The fact they said no would suggest that you perhaps should invite them to view the importance of those workers --after all, they are the ones who did not feel it was worth negotiating a deal to spare those layoffs.
Kelly
Brandon's reply:
Hi! The teacher shouldn't be blame on your decision. They know that if you reopen the contract that there still would be the chance of losing the support staff. Stop blaming them. You may not have the funding but it doesn't mean you can cheap out the future of New Brunswick. And why are you getting rid of library. That is just plain dumb. The library may still be there but whats the point when there able to be signed out. You should take your decision into consideration. If are going to KILL the chance of these students across NB. You have no idea what your doing.
your quote "We wouldn't need TAs if we had better teachers"
well heres mine "We would have education system if we had better minister of education"
Lamrock's reply:
I didn't say that--but I DID point out that with innovative teaching, one can reduce the need for TAs.
C'mon, Brandon, do some research instead of trying to come up with clever personal attacks....the innovative learning fund has put $13million in the hands of teachers who move away from lecture-based teaching. Project based learning, experiential learning, team-based approaches. We get teachers working on literacy and math skills by having students engage in projects that get them learning by pursuing questions that interest them. And guess what? Those types of teaching reduce discipline problems and do require fewer TAs.
I love a good argument, but are you really criticizing a minister of education for encouraging teachers to get you learning in more hands-on ways? Are you really sure you're so well-versed in educational techniques that you can reject, with absolute certainty, the hypothesis that there are teaching methods that can improve on the status quo?
Or did you just have a clever line that you didn't want to spoil with critical thought?
I've treated your arguments with respect, and provided you logical arguments. You don't have to agree, but please show you're cpable of responding to rational arguments with something other than personal attacks.
On the issue of teachers and "responsibility"-- I think it is a simple statement that everyone is responsible for the choices it is in their power to make.
The government collectively (of which I am a member) chose the overall budget for education, as well as levels of taxation, borrowing, and funding of other programs. You hold us accountable for that, and that's fair.
As education minister, I chose to reduce hours for caraloguing library books, and not cut other services such as the increased prograns for early childhood, services for special needs students, literacy programs and innovative teaching grants. I should be deemed responsble for those choices. (Although I note you have not suggested an alternative area you would have cut if you were minister).
Unions could have chosen to allow savings in either salaries or class size reductions to avoid other cuts. (Your argument that they couldn't avoid all cuts, so they need not avoid any cutsis irrational. Applying that logic to government, then, you would say that because I couldn't avoid some reductions in library assistants, I had no responsibility had I chosen to cut them all. That is, well, rather lacking in logical consistency from your starting position.
Your statement that only government has a responsibility to make choices in the best interests of students is not an ethical position I can support. I believe that all players in the system, and all citizens have responsibilities. Approximately 70% of expenses in education are predetermined by the collective agreement. Does it not follow, then, that at least some responsibility is shared by both signatories to the collective agreement? And what logical difference would you assert in support of your claim that only one signatory owes students a responsibility.
Brandon, I sincerely applaud the fact you care enough to write an education minister. And you are clearly bright and engaged, and I have no doubt you will make a real difference someday. Respectfully, though, I hope you give your intellect the care it deserves. Try doing independent research on the most successful education policies in other jurisdictions, instead of parroting the talking points handed to you by adults (including me). And please learn, should you go on to higher education, that coming up with clever ways to call someone an idiot when challenged on your views is no substitute for informed, logical debate.
Thanks for the chance to engage.
Kelly
Brandon's response:
Stop hiding behind your statistics, because of don't care about them, and am not making a personal attack. The many people who have read my message and your response said that I wasn't making a personal attack and your response was very unprofessional and were applaud by it. Also my librarian found in a news paper when you were in opposition that you quoted "Every school should have a libraries". So c'mon Lamrock do some research and maybe you'll see want your doing is pretty dumb.
When i said your quote "We wouldn't need TA if we had better teachers" and you said..
"that with innovative teaching, one can reduce the need for TAs"
well that pretty much implies the thing the quote i stated that heard, its the same thing, your just trying to make it sound better.
Lamrock's response:
All right. Message received about statistics. You don't care.
I will leave you to make arguments unburdened by facts or conflicting opinions --an activity which you will no doubt find more enjoyable performed solo, so you are not bothered by people disagreeing with your certainty.
As John F. Kennedy said, "one must learn to recognize those who wish the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of reflection."
K.
Comments
My God,
Lamrock must really miss blogging - he's going on a tirade with a middle schooler.
Cudos to the little dissident, the chance to understand kleptocracy at such a young age is almost worth losing the library.
Also, statistics lie almost as much as Irving party 1 & 2 spokesmen these days - their corporate research institutes do nothing but back neo-feudalism with scientific sounding garbledygook.
Posted by: Dan Fitzgerald | June 2, 2009 10:06 PM
Mr. Lamrock you should know better than to try and debate with a child who just wanted to shout words at you.
I'm upset you could have wasted my tax dollars responding to a kid who just wanted to shout "No, No No!" over and over again.
Posted by: Drew | June 2, 2009 11:42 PM
As the kids would say, OMG.
I am so glad Lamrock went into politics and not into early education.
Brandon, this is good. Minister Lamrock did bring up one good point, the unions are also playing politics with your future. Unions and Labour law is complicated, and I hope that someday you get a chance to study labour and government and someday with your passion you grow up to become an adovocate for the public.
And lastly, sometimes things happen that are out of your control. Continue your studies, help your friends with their homework (when group teaching was popular in my day, they put the struggling students in with the good students and the good students had to do most of the work just to get a good mark - imagine that!- so I did a lot of other people's homework!), keep learning and when you get to university you will see that being a self-starter will help you immensely.
This is really an adult dispute, where the union and the government got caught up in binding collective agreements and in the end, the teaching assistants and students suffered. The Minister takes his budget and tries to accomplish all the goals that he can with the money. Few people realize that our schools, courts, hospitals, and public safety are funded by taxes. There is only so much tax revenue to go around. And with the Corporate tax cuts and Personal Income tax cuts starting this year the province stands to lose another $250mil in tax revenue.
Regardless of what decisions are made there will still be those who didn't get something. It is a tough part of public administration.
Good luck to you in the future. But as for now, the TA's and librarians are the ones who paid the price for this impasse.
I've included a definition of impasse which I think is appropriate for this isssue. It refers to the part of collective bargaining before the agreement is signed, but goes to illustrate the problems at present.
A bargaining impasse occurs when the two sides negotiating an agreement are unable to reach an agreement and become deadlocked. An Impasse is almost invariably mutually harmful, either as a result of direct action which may be taken such as a strike in employment negotiation or sanctions/military action in international relations, or simply due to the resulting delay in negotiating a mutually beneficial agreement.
Some theorists contend that impasses are used by negotiating parties in situations of imperfect information as a method of signalling to the other side the seriousness of their position. Impasse provides a credible signal that a party’s position is genuine and not merely an ambit claim.
Impasse may also arise if parties suffer from self-serving bias. Most disputes arise in situations where facts are able to be interpreted in multiple ways, and if parties interpret the facts to their own benefit they may be unable to accept the opposing party’s claim as reasonable. They may believe the other side is either bluffing or acting unfairly and deserve to be "punished".
As bargaining impasse is mutually harmful, it may be beneficial for the parties to accept binding arbitration or mediation to settle their dispute, or the state may impose such a solution. The word impasse may also refer to any situation in which no progress can be made. A stalemate in chess is a common example.
Unfortunately, this collective agreement was already negotiated and signed before the budget cut was on the table.
Posted by: Jack | June 3, 2009 10:18 AM
As many of us learned during the EFI "debate", arguing with Lamrock is like wrestling with a pig, everybody gets dirty but the pig likes it.
Posted by: Harold Jarche | June 3, 2009 10:30 AM
If Lamrock & Brewer didn't hand over the purses to the Teachers with their "sweet deal" last fall he wouldn't be in a position to ask for some of it back. They are paid too much now, but something this government or the previous Fiberals dont' understand is "a deal's a deal".
Posted by: derek | June 3, 2009 11:06 AM
OMG! Is there anything more immature than a member of government arguing with a boy in middle school! For the love of pete, give me a break!! Mr. Lamrock didn't deal with this matter in a very professional way, but Brandon didn't really help the situation by arguing back. I have never seen anything more immature!
Posted by: Nathan | June 3, 2009 06:46 PM
Why am I thinking about that Seinfeld episode with Kramer at the dojo?
Posted by: Aaron | June 4, 2009 09:56 AM
Yeah kid, who do you think you are debating with personal insults, sketchy facts and clever lines with no critical thought.
Don't you know that is Lamrock's job?
Apparently he doesn't like somebody using his schtick.
Just amazing to read. Lamrock's attitude would be rude if he was speaking with an adult, the fact that he speaks to a child in that manner is just stunning!
Lamrock, you are making decisions that are affecting people's LIVES! They aren't make believe players in Fantasy Football, they are real people and this boy is upset with your moves. To respond in the manner that you did says much more about you than it does about him. Does he sound childish? Maybe but guess what? He's a child! What's your excuse? You are a small, petty man.
Posted by: Robert | June 4, 2009 10:19 AM
Congratulations Mr. Lamrock for engaging a student and trying to engage them in critical thought. Too bad our high schools couldn't prepare him to properly respond to your comments with knowledgable debate, rather than pure emotion.
Posted by: Cole | June 5, 2009 09:50 AM
I think it's great to see a cabinet minister willing to interact with the public, let alone a middle school child.
Sadly, Brandon isn't articulating reasoned arguments and presenting alternative solutions. He's spewing what he's probably hearing at home and/or from his unionized educators who think the public coffers are bottomless.
It's the same old stuff you hear from socialist-leaning public - spend more! tax less! The gub'ment has to take care of us!
Well, maybe those who think the gub'ment should keep spending in the face of deficits and shrinking budgets should cut a goodwill cheque to the minister of finance.
Posted by: Matt Stainforth | June 5, 2009 11:09 AM
The problem is Matt - the government is spending on things like Ducks Unlimited, Horse Racing, Golf courses that amount to more than 10 million and cutting $2.9 million for Educational Support Staff.
I am a proud Unionist and a proud public servant and I don't believe the government has” to take care of me” - but I believe the Government has to make better Choices. They should invest in good public services and Education should be one of the top priorities. My children are impacted greatly by their choices - both at school and at home.
Maybe Brandon’s parents are Union members - And if he did hear things at home it would be the stress of how they were going to put food on the table. Brandon seems like a smart young man to me and I think he made up his own mind on how these cuts will impact him – Wow - imagine an independent thinker!!!
Unfortunately- the decisions made by this government and Minister Lamrock are wrong for the Education System and will certainly impact every student. There are many other cuts that could be made - but the target was put on the backs of Educational Support Staff - and it is a shame. I commend Brandon for his honest and true comments.
Posted by: Sandy Harding | June 5, 2009 03:13 PM
Interesting that the Minister appears to have absolved himself of his responsibility for/role in negotiating a contract with the Teachers. It takes two people to sign a contract. Lamrock is doing a clever shell-game here to hide the fact he was unable to manage and forecast his Department's budget and manage expenditures and, as a result, has put some essential elements of the education system at risk.
Posted by: Tim Jackson | June 5, 2009 03:21 PM
Seems like Brandon's being coached by adults-what middle school child would know about reopening contracts and labour negotiations?
If Brandon's statements came from an adult, they would be rude and thoughtless. Since Kelly Lamrock is the adult in the situation, perhaps things would have turned out better if he just made some mild, polite response and let it go. It's a battle he can't win--the kid can be as rude as he wants and get away with it--the minute things don't go his way, he can cry to the media and they'll overreact like they do with most other things. It's like telling Mom. At least Kelly tried to reason, but for that to work, both people have to play fair.
The larger issue is lack of civility and intelligent debate, made worse by the impersonal and unaccountable nature of faceless online communication.
Posted by: Bev Bramble | June 5, 2009 04:59 PM
It's hard to believe that Lamrock can make the statements and accusations he does having no classroom experience himself. If he did, perhaps he wouldn't have told Brandon that he might make a difference "someday". What kind of a message does that send to the youth who are passionately interested in impacting their world. Not until you're older? That's ridiculous! Certainly his arguments need to be refined but his heart is in the right place.
For Lamrock issues like class size and intervention and library time are just stats on paper. I'd like to see him hands on in a school to get a taste of what it's really like. To say that the teachers can take over cataloging books in their spare time is simply ridiculous. Firstly, because it's degrading to think that's all a librarian does (from AR tests, to sorting, to special programs, to filing orders for new books their job is anything but that simplistic) and secondly, because reduced class sizes won't give teachers relaxed leisure time to do what they please, it will merely return their schedule to something more realistically manageable and allow them to more adequately meet the needs of each child. Even in a class of 20 it is nearly impossible for a teacher to provide the necessary individual attention most students require. I have no doubt that cutting support staff will be detrimental to both student and teacher. As a new teacher who taught a 3/4 class with 16 SEPs out of 24 students, the new direction the education system is taking makes me concerned for the needs of those students who may all too easily fall through the cracks.
Posted by: Chantal Lavigne | June 5, 2009 08:15 PM
Oh come on everybody. Sure, Lamrock should have just stopped the contact, but he does not say anything that is not appropriate; I would have said much worse.
Posted by: Dr Weiner | June 5, 2009 10:50 PM
Yep, it seems that the Minister wants to have it all:
- reduce class sizes so teachers have time to manage children with special needs.
- reduce class sizes so teachers have more time to work in the library.
- eliminate EFI to improve literacy.
- eliminate literacy tutors to save money.
Lamrock would have made Marie Antoinette proud.
Posted by: Tim Jackson | June 6, 2009 01:41 AM
I think Mr. Lamrock handled the situation very well. The student asked some relevant questions, but his maturity of thought was not there. Nonetheless, Mr. Lamrock took the time and the trouble to reply to him.
I do strongly believe that students should have libraries and all the teaching facilities that they need (on these points I do agree with the student) and the Minister and the government should do everything to make the best facilities available to students.
However, it looks that some adult who had political beefs was behind the student's remarks.
Posted by: M. Arif | June 6, 2009 12:06 PM
"Congratulations Mr. Lamrock for engaging a student and trying to engage them in critical thought. Too bad our high schools couldn't prepare him to properly respond to your comments with knowledgable debate, rather than pure emotion."
He's in middle school...
Posted by: Ainsley | June 6, 2009 12:26 PM
I have to applaud young Mr. Pike for taking the time to express his concern. He clearly took the time to think about what he wanted to say.
To Matt who wrote: "Sadly, Brandon isn't articulating reasoned arguments and presenting alternative solutions."
He can't be more than 12 or 13 years old. He was pretty darn articulate for a child.
Lamrock can be commended for taking the time to respond - the last time I wrote to his office, it took 3 weeks to get a generic email that he sent out to dozens of others (He should learn what BCC means...). However, he was speaking far above the level of a 7th grader.
In all, he was rude and condescending to a young man who is concerned about the future of his education and those who do the educating.
Posted by: Lisa | June 8, 2009 02:21 PM
Hard to believe that some people try to blame the child in this exchange.
As the adult, it falls to Lamrock to set the example. It is NOT acceptable to our Minister of Education to behave in this manner and I don't buy the "the 14 year old started it" excuse.
Lamrock claims that he just gets caught up in debate. That doesn't say much for his level of self control if he can't distinguish between an adult and a child.
Posted by: Robert | June 10, 2009 10:57 AM
Re: "Hard to believe that some people try to blame the child in this exchange."
It's obvious that some adult is hiding behind this child to score political points by embarrassing a minister of the government. That's what I object to.
Also, Brandon's parents and teachers should be teaching him that rude statements such as "So c'mon Lamrock do some research and maybe you'll see want your doing is pretty dumb." are inappropriate ways to address a minister of the crown, an adult, or any other human for that matter.
Posted by: Bev Bramble | June 19, 2009 05:04 PM
Maybe he could save a few mili if he just make New-Brunswick school quit the Microsoft addiction. You know... Open office is free and work pretty good. Ubuntu is still a bit far away for mainstreem desktop but hey, it's very workable and dosn't cost a penny to license.
Give it a try, maybe you will end up liking it just like I did.
Posted by: Someone | June 20, 2009 06:38 AM
"Also, Brandon's parents and teachers should be teaching him that rude statements such as "So c'mon Lamrock do some research and maybe you'll see want your doing is pretty dumb." are inappropriate ways to address a minister of the crown, an adult, or any other human for that matter."
So, again, it's the boy's fault for being rude. Was he rude? Yes. But;
1. that boy is a CHILD, Lamrock is (supposedly) an ADULT.
2. that boy was not elected into a position where a certain level of decorum and professionalism is expected. if Lamrock wants to leave his post in office, he can act as rude as he likes and I won't care.
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