Excellent program, with good information. The spokesperson for the BC Veterinary Association did that association no good service. Obviously he had been to a school of 'spin' and the smell of cover up was intense. I think all of us recognize that veterinarians have a business to run but some of these mark ups smack of cynical price gouging. Unlike the spokesman for the veterinary association, I do have sympathy for those decent pet owners trying to do what is best for their animals. Yes we know that sometimes hard decisions have to be made BUT if there is the option of such an owner being able to buy generic drugs from a pharmacist at a more reasonable price...I think that a veterinarian who presumably has the well being of animals and a love of animals, ethically is bound to inform an owner of that option. It is not easy for those who do not have pets to understand the bond that pet owners have with their animals. It is sad that bond and love is seen as leverage to extract as much money as is possible by those lecturing the profession on how to maximize their businesses. Posted by: Jane Prior | Nov 28, 07 07:23 PM

B.C. Vet. Assoc. should be ashamed of themselves, as should the Canadian Vet.Assoc. Mr. Kirby sounds like a very uncaring man, interested only in making a fortune on the backs of the rest of us. Maybe vets should advertise the fact that we could ask about getting the meds cheaper by getting a receipt. A large poster in the waiting room would do the trick...and these money-hungry vets wouldn't have to dish out much of their precious money! And pet owners wouldn't have to put down their pets prematurely. Posted by: LOUIE | Nov 28, 07 08:05 PM

I was taken aback with the article this evening about veterinarians overcharging clients. I had expected something of substance, not just some reporter trying to inflame the public. Erica Johnson is clearly not a business person and her interview with the fellow from the BCVMA was just silly; although Ms. Johnson was clearly in earnest. Perhaps Ms. Johnson would like to see universal health care for her cat? In any case, perhaps you’ll publish Ms. Johnson’s salary so we all can all get worked up about how much she is overpaid. Please get back to reporting on important issues. Posted by: T. Szplitgeiber | Nov 28, 07 08:39 PM

I've reached the point where I seldom visit a veterinarian if I can possibly avoid it. My last foray into this minefield was in attempting to get some Revolution to combat my dog's fleas. My sister in B.C. can simply walk into a vet's office and buy it. The same in the U.S. U.S. suppliers will even mail it to Canada but can't guarantee it won't be stopped at Customs. Here in Toronto, the vets insist on an office visit (minimum $40) before they'll dispense the medication. My own vet wouldn't let me have any without an office visit and checkup as he hadn't seen the dog for two years!! As far as the interview Marketplace did with the representative in the Veterinary Association, I'd just like to say it's too bad we don't have somebody in a position like that who is actually on the animals' side! He is obviously simply a mouthpiece for the vets. No compassion... No understanding of people who are trying to help sick animals. All I can say is - Pets are just Big Business to the majority of veterinarians. A very sad state of affairs. Posted by: aileen burak | Nov 28, 07 08:42 PM

The most interesting program that I have seen for quite sometime. I found the part of the program regarding the convention in Banff most interesting. To my knowledge, here in our area of the country, there isn't a Vet that would have been able to attend such a function. Our own Veterinarian would have been busy 7 days a week, on call for 24 hours, taking care of her 3 small children, various strays, wildlife that wandered into the community, hurt or otherwise, senior family members, meetings in the community, phone calls, staffing problems, school, teaching interns in their quest to be Drs., etc. She doesn't have a pharmacy in her building, in fact, she only got a building when the town allocated her an abandoned building site on the main street. She sends out sympathy cards, (hand written) on the loss of your pet and apologizes for the fee involved in the dispensation of any drugs leading to the comfort of the pet when such an event occurs. We, in our community, would love to see our Vet, Mrs. Charlotte Williams, have the opportunity to go to Banff, for a rest maybe, perhaps a spa!! But she would never attend in an attempt to learn how to milk her patients and their "masters". Shame on those people who stand in front of those Drs. and teach fraud, instead of compassion. But, others would disagree, it is, after all, an animal, not a person! Posted by: Judy Pieper | Nov 28, 07 09:19 PM

Dentists and doctors, lawyers and podiatrists, beware- you're next in this program, better prepare some good statements on why YOU don't systematically rip off your clients... Of course, many people have insurance against medical fees for themselves and I can only suggest that pet owners seek and take out insurance against veterinary medical fees, too. This is a cheap and convenient way of being prepared for unexpected vet bills. To end this comment, I would like to say that any discussion on professional fees and prices is welcome, but not to the point of extreme single-mindedness. Viewers may feel outraged at some of the prices charged by a minority of veterinarians, however I am confident that even after watching this program, the vast majority of the pet owning public recognizes veterinary clinics and offices for what they usually are- caring professional pet health providers that offer great value for money and a whole lot of compassion. Yours faithfully, Andreas Brieger, DMV, Granby, QC Posted by: Andreas Brieger, part 5 | Nov 28, 07 09:40 PM

Sometimes I think we rely too much on vets and they know it and take advantage of it. You bring your cat in cause it sneezed more than once..well guess what the vet is going to in all likelihood tell you that you need this or that pill for the cat. If my critters are sick, I have 4, then they go to the vet. Fortunately my vet is in a rural area and I don't think she'd survive too long with these kind of antics. I also do my research before so I tend to be relatively informed on whats going on with my animals. I know of one vet clinic that just recently opened a brand new fancy shmancy clinic, well you can bet the prices on everything there just skyrocketed out of sight. My vet is small, one vet, one maybe two assistants, small nice clean office, she's good with the animals, realizes that I know a lot about my animals and doesn't give me any bull that I need this or that. I just hope she stays that way! Posted by: Patty Macleod | Nov 28, 07 10:33 PM

According to the Globe and Mail (Jan 8, 2007) "Canadians spend over $4 BILLION each year on their pets. More than half goes to the bare necessities: food and trips to the vet." I think a fantastic idea for a follow up to this weeks show (a remarkable "eye-opener" which you so professionally provided the general UNAWARE public) would be to also investigate the cost of veterinary SURGERY! I appreciated the info on medications and prescription options, but I have to tell you...that as a Standard Poodle breeder now living in Ontario I have personally FLOWN with my own adult Poodles back to BC for veterinary care on more than one occasion. I have paid for the return flight from Toronto to Vancouver, the pre-surgery tests, lab work such as the blood work, pathology and biopsy, x-rays, AND the surgery for LESS money than I have been quoted by veterinarians here. Ridiculous? I'd say so! I have seen some vets' prices in BOTH BC and Ontario for simple surgeries such as spay/neuter as high as $500! At Dr. Bhullar's Atlas Animal Hospital in Vancouver just moments ago I was quoted (via anonymous phone call) $70 for a dog neuter and $85 for a spay. How IS that price difference even possible? Sure would like you to be able to ask the BCVMA about THAT! Maybe it's time to consider putting a stop to the "cartel" that this "Old Boys Club" has run for years and finally make them accountable! Maybe what they need to hear is as a collective public... "We're mad as HELL and we're not going to take it any more!!!" Posted by: Heather Pendragon | Nov 28, 07 10:55 PM

Without going too in depth into this hot issue, I have a few comments as a soon to graduate veterinarian. I agree that there are some unscrupulous vets out there, which I plan to never be one of. #1. To Aileen Burak, the reason why most vets will not provide Revolution over the counter without an exam is because it can kill your pet if he or she has an asymptomatic or symptomatic heartworm infection. I wouldn't want that on my conscience, and I expect others don't either. #2. The price list shown on Marketplace did not address the "volume discount" that large vet clinics get and that pharmacies get if the medication is also used in their human clients. So those "nice pharmacists" that charge prices listed at the bottom of the range could actually be getting a higher profit than some of the higher prices. That's it for me, I need to get some sleep so that I can get up and go to school as I have for the past 7.5 years - just imagine how many prescriptions I'll have to fill to work off my debt. Posted by: starving student | Nov 28, 07 11:10 PM

OK...I'm on board! Where do we start to get things changed so we can have more regulation like the UK? Vets are gouging us and taking advantage of us and our love for our pets. What can we do? Can we write someone? Picket? HELP! Posted by: Cheryl | Nov 29, 07 12:18 AM

I don't see what was so "silly" about Ms. Johnson's report. It was straightforward and to the point. I didn't see anything inflammatory here. In any event, yes, vets are business people and have to look out for their bottom line. But vets---like all doctors---are held to a higher ethical standard than everyone else. If they want the respect that comes with being called "Dr.", they have to demonstrate a modicum of concern for the interests of someone other than themselves. Perhaps future veterinary students (or all med students for that matter) should think about this when they're working on their vet school applications and telling admissions committees how altruistic they are and how they only want to become vets because they "care." Posted by: Eddy Elmer | Nov 29, 07 03:23 AM

I'm not surprised because I have already asked pharmacies about drugs for my pets. Some are able to provide the specific drug needed as long as a prescription is produced. I am also not surprised that the mark up in some cases was rather high. Veterinary practice is a business and they have to make a profit. It just depends on location and how well the vet likes to live; or, on how 'state of the art' the equipment is. If a vet clinic is well equipped and staffed I can always assume things are going to be a little more money. Posted by: Evelyn Lowery | Nov 29, 07 03:36 PM

Re:aileen burak comment regarding revolution. Revolution is used as a flea product and dewormer most commonly, however, this is also used as a preventive measure against heartworm. It is vital in areas, such as Ontario, that the pet be tested for heartworm and be in good physical health before using the product. If the pet has already contracted heartworm using this product will in fact kill the larvae - the dead worms may lodge in the lung, causing a thromboembolism (a blood clot) and result in death to the pet. It only makes sense for liability purposes to have an exam done as well as bloodwork for such a product. In greater Vancouver and most of the BC area there is no problem with heartworm and so this is not seen as a risk - the Okanagan of BC had an outbreak a while ago involving wild animals - Vets in that area will generally do bloodwork testing as a preventive measure, however I do not believe there has been a domestic pet that has contracted this to date. Posted by: Brian | Nov 29, 07 04:24 PM

I admire Dr. Charlotte Williams for her dedication, and would say that most veterinarians exhibit similar enthusiasm for their profession. I do know however, that we in Alberta are required to obtain 30 hours of continuing education every two years to stay current, of which 20 must be scientific, the other may be topics of interest to veterinarians, including the economics of running a small business. Most conferences offer good food, some entertainment, and usually a nice hotel to stay in - all at the expense of the attending veterinarian or their clinic. Because many veterinarians are very hardworking and busy, this may be the only small vacation they go on all year, and most of it is spent learning to provide the best quality of care. The American style of the speaker who was encouraging veterinarians to make money in their business may grate on some, but one also must realize that veterinarians have in the past not been taught good business skills, which meant that when it came time for retirement, or hiring an associate, the money was not there. I note that on the survey, the AVERAGE markup appears to be close to 100%, which is in general what is needed to support a good quality facility. That there is a range is simply an indication that there is no price fixing - which is illegal. Posted by: Anita | Nov 29, 07 05:11 PM

This CBC Marketplace on Veterinarians pricing was not an eye opener for me. We have avoided most Vet. offices over the past 24 years and our companions have been extremely healthy. The 24 years prior, when we "trusted" their system , brought only misery and despair.Overpricing, uneducated diet protocols, vaccine protocols all led to more money in their pockets with the pets being the losers. Big buck pharmacare and pet food industries dictate and the public falls for it. What a sad world we live in. So many lies! It's scary. Thanks for your guts. Posted by: Barb McKee | Nov 29, 07 08:43 PM

Thank you for an excellent program on veterinary medicine mark-ups. We take our dogs to the marvelous Dr. Bhular in Vancouver who was on your program. When one of our dogs had a torn knee ligament several years ago the estimate from the local vet was $1800 and Dr.B. did the surgery, very successfully, for $800. A friend's dog had the same problem and had it operated on locally - the bill was $2000. Most vets here are lining their pockets at the expense of the public. Many people have only the choice of not treating their sick animals or having them put down. Please consider doing another program, this time looking at the cost of procedures. Posted by: Susan Kidd | Nov 29, 07 09:30 PM

If there is such demand for pet medicine at fair prices, why don't the local pharmacies selling the pet meds at lower prices advertise this fact more widely? Seems like no pet-owners know that they have options. While I don't think it's very upright of the BC Vet Association and similar vet industry trade associations to put profit over compassion, I don't think they can be legislated to do otherwise. Seems to me that the best way to remedy this unfair situation is to promote more competition for the vets' med business. Posted by: K.Eakin | Nov 29, 07 10:06 PM

This piece does make much sense unless we know more about what the Vet charges for other services. You cannot blame someone for charging a lot for medication if they are charging less for surgery or examination. No attempt at addressing this issue was attempted. This is a huge hole in the argument of the show. Posted by: Russell Hanna | Nov 29, 07 10:21 PM

Could you imagine if our Physicians sold us our meds out of their offices? The same standards and rules that apply to physicians should apply to vets. Everyone should be getting their meds at their local pharmacy and get the information that comes along with it. As the dollar comes first in many vet clinics, I am curious to know about medications that are actually prescribed for pets that are not even necessary, are harmful or perhaps do nothing at all but make us feel better as pet owners, that is until we find out the truth. Posted by: Kinewah | Nov 29, 07 11:18 PM

The entire program was ridiculous, and omitted many facts. First of all, there are many drug distributors that veterinarians buy their drugs from, and they don't all charge the same price. What the "researcher" may not realize about tapazole, is that our particular distributer raised their price of tapazole by approximately 90% in the past 6 months, because of a change in their supplier. This would then reflect a price increase of ~ 90% to the client as well. When calling around for prices, some people may still be selling their old stock at the lower price, while those of us who have used up their old stock and are now selling the more expensive tapazole. Some pharmacists do stock the same drugs as veterinarians, but the cost is not usually a lot cheaper. In fact I have come across many examples (such as most antibiotics) where our drugs are less than at the pharmacies. I cannot imagine looking for a pair of Levis at let's say Sears and Zellers, and expecting that their price be the exact same. It is also absurd to expect them to have posted in the store what it is they paid for the jeans. Do people really expect that vets should sell their drugs at the same cost that we purchased them. If drugs are not marked up, then exam and surgery fees would have to be higher to ensure the hospital can afford to operate. It is also easier for vets (and safer for the animals) to ensure clients are filling their medications regularly and monitoring how the patient is doing when the medication is purchased at the veterinary hospital. MarketPlace accomplished what it set out to do. That is, run a program that would stir the public's interest (and boost ratings) at the expense an entire profession. Congratulations CBC. Posted by: Jason MacArthur, DVM | Nov 30, 07 10:54 AM

I have to admit that I was greatly taken back by the recent episode of Marketplace. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Veterinarians and their co-workers. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that most Vets are not 'there for the money'! (ie:vets don't live in castles and own their own ski resorts). When one compares the average salary of a human physician to that of a Veterinarian there is no comparison. And it's probably a safe bet to state that the host of Marketplace makes more money than your average Vet. Veterinarians just happen to be running a business and with a business comes various costs and expenses, not to mention the overhead alone of operating the hospital. Owning an animal comes with responsibility and cost. And your average person does not own 14 cats! I'm fairly certain that there are greater issues affecting Canadian consumers than the price of medicine for our 4 legged friends. Of all the times I've visited a physician, they never once asked me if I had a health plan in order for me to save money! Maybe Marketplace can do a show on that!! The whole show was ludicrous and extremely biased (ie:using your own cat to prove a point that really never got its message across). And I'm pretty sure that pharmacists are not trained in the area of providing advice and medical knowledge to people regarding animal health care. Posted by: Tyson Nicholson | Nov 30, 07 01:06 PM

This was the biggest piece of rubbish of I have ever seen. How about a piece on fair journalism? Has anyone considered that veterinarians have overhead to worry about? Nurses to pay for? They do NOT have an easy job and a simple mark up on common (inexpensive) medications is perhaps their way of dealing with the ability to offer the general public inexpensive diagnostics. Have you ever tried to obtain radiographs in human medicine for less than $200?? Not possible. Perhaps CBC/Marketplace should spend more time on something that is more journalistically interesting? Because they produced a real stinker on this one. Big drama with little substance. Posted by: Thomas Furgas | Nov 30, 07 10:36 PM

I have worked in a vet office in Alberta for 20 years and yes, I have seen prices change. Our office follows the fee guide and most common long term drugs are only a 30% markup (same as your pharmacist in the report). What made me chuckle was the comment by the reporter that the fee guide also tells the vet that if they are writing a prescription they should charge $13.00. Since she is so fond of comparisons, what do doctors get paid for every prescription they write? Posted by: R.K. | Dec 2, 07 01:36 AM

Most illuminating show. My comments to Ms. Brieger. Having lived in Europe for over 5 year, and owning a pet, we did purchase "pet insurance" when we bought our dog. We did use it, and it saved us a lot of money on repairs to our home, as our dog tried to chew threw a doorway. I never did use it for the vet, surgery, or medicine required. It would be great if the pet insurance that can be purchased in Canada was affordable. It's not, I've looked. Plus the "stipulations" they have on them are a farce. As for this program, we have two pets in this household, and while we really like our vet, we will be asking more questions in the future, not just on prescriptions, but all fees involved. I would hope that our lovely government would have someone who actually cared enough to investigate and maybe, just maybe, produce a bill to ensure fair practice across Canada. As for the "vet" spokesman for BC, if I was a vet in that province, I would not be a happy camper with his "spin tactics". Shame, shame! I feel so much for the elderly on fixed incomes, and low income families. But I'm sure Mr. Kirby thinks these people should not have pets, if you can't afford the bill. Mind you, the thing I find the most deplorable across the country is the amount of money vets charge for "disposing" of pets once you have to put them down! Posted by: Jodi-Anne Anderson | Dec 2, 07 02:02 PM

I am appalled and disgusted at the prices vets are charging pet owners for medication, not to mention consultations and surgery. I am completely disgusted by Mr. Kelly of the Vet's Association and his heartless greed with respect to the prices pet owners are charged and his double talk when Ms. Johnson repeatedly asked him how pet owners would know to even ask about prices, prescriptions etc. I don't know how he lives with himself. What I want to know is how we as pet owners start a petition or movement to get our provincial and federal government to do what the British government did. I will start with writing to my MLA. Does anyone else have and other ideas? Please let the rest of us know. Posted by: Virginia Grimaud | Dec 2, 07 07:39 PM

A dog spay on a medium sized dog is an invasive abdominal surgery which will take approximately 35-60 min. What is done will vary widely from clinic to clinic. In some clinics, where clients want the utmost of care, and reduced surgery risk for their dog, a presurgical workup will include more than an examination. Some will run a urine strip, and hematocrit (measures amount of red blood cells), others will do a presurgical panel - a lab examination of blood samples to show if there is any preexisting disease. In other clinics where clients are not willing to pay for this, it is not done. While we all wish to practice the best medicine possible, veterinarians are often limited by what their clients are willing to pay for. Many clinics place an IV catheter and administer IV fluids during the surgery. This gives quick access should the dog's condition deteriorate under anesthetic, and also helps keep the dog's condition stable. Pain medication also adds to the cost. In the past, animals were not routinely given pain medication during and after elective surgery. Modern research has given us better ways of measuring pain response, even in animals who tend to "hide it", and many veterinarians include pain medication as part of the standard procedure. Monitoring of anesthesia by a trained AHT (equivalent to human nurse) is now more routine, rather than have the veterinarian doing both the surgery and the anesthesia - MUCH safer! Some clinics may have an AHT monitoring the recovering patient - some may not. Most clinics keep the patient overnight until anesthesia is fully worn off, others do not. In addition, some clinics use spays and neuters as a draw for business, as it is one of the prices people will check, others charge what the procedure is actually worth. Posted by: Anita | Dec 3, 07 04:29 PM

I know Dr. Kirby from years past, and am fully aware of his ethics. He is one of those Vets who would help a homeless person with treatment and supplies if needed. He took care of his clients' animals, and did not charge outrageous prices that this show claimed. I think I will go down to Save On Foods and ask them why they didn't tell me I could get my orange juice cheaper at Thrifty's! GIVE ME A BREAK!! Posted by: Kerri | Dec 10, 07 07:31 PM

Very good story, not much of a surprise with the treatment your reporter got from the BC Vet Rep. (Trade Union). I've been in the dog world for 24 years. I see on a daily basis clients receiving drugs without warning of side effects or contraindications. They should warn the clients of these as a pharmacist does. I see dogs given pills that clearly contradict its usage on the labels. I would also like to see the Associations enforce the new vaccine protocols on their members, every three years. I would bet 95% of the vets in Canada are still doing yearly shots. Is it a surprise we have so many sick animals in this country. Prescription diets(full of garbage) and drugs are making them sicker. Posted by: Lori Prostebby | Jan 8, 08 08:24 AM

I too decided to get my dogs meds from my pharmacy, but when I asked my vet to write prescriptions I was told it would cost $19.00 for each prescription. My dog has several health problems and they are all chronic so he needs lots of medication. My point is the vets must have watched the show and figured out a way to still get their pound of flesh. I think it is about time to have some form of regulation on this. Posted by: kathy | May 21, 08 09:58 AM