After listening to the minister's responses to the issues regarding the problems in the homes, no wonder the voter turn out was so poor. He gave the usual B.S. response. The guy is a clown. He could care less what is going on in the homes and I don't believe it's an important issue with this government. It's great that we can view a program like MarketPlace to get a better picture of what our politicians are REALLY like. Posted by: Bob | Oct 17, 07 07:48 PM

I work in the long term center and have witnessed many attacks on other residents, but thank god I have been able to stop them or report them before the attack got serious. But i have a question for all of you guys to ponder. If this is happening to your loved one, imagine what is happening to us, the staff on a daily basis. We are there to serve your loved ones to the best of our ability. It is our passion. But at night I can go home and count the many bruises. Posted by: i rather not say | Oct 17, 07 08:04 PM

I was truly shocked. I am an RN in a hospital setting and the abuse by cognitively impaired patients is by no means confined to nursing homes, though these frail elderly are most at risk. Think about the staff that have to deal with these impaired patients. They are also abused, hit, kicked, spat upon and often seriously injured. This happens in hospital settings also. We advocate for our patients and staff, but most of the time, is any one listening? Posted by: laurie beauclair | Oct 17, 07 08:04 PM

Having recently left employment with a private Long Term Care facility that carries the title of Retirment Home I urge the public and government to start lobbying for rules and guidelines to be implemented in these facilities. Currently Retirement Homes in Ontario are only governed by the Landlord Tenant Act and thus do not require the same staffing levels or training requirements as "proper" Long Term Care facilities. With the the lack of beds available in mental institutions and the increasing numbers in our elderly population, more and more individuals with mental and physical concerns are going to be placed in private facilities for "babysitting.' While these Retirement facilities have in-house guidelines they are not always followed due to the costs involved and their need to produce a profit for their shareholders. Posted by: Kimberly Hayes | Oct 17, 07 08:05 PM

I once visited a home much like what was shown on the show, and witnessed a lack of a sense of urgency by staff when it came to a resident. Since then, I have been terrified of ever ending up in a home (however I still have about 30 years ahead of me if all goes well). Not having any children of my own, I wonder if I cannot care for myself later in life, Will I not have a choice, but to be put in one of those terrifying places? Something needs to be done! The government needs to invest more time and money in the care of the elderly and stop treating them like a lost cause....do they forget, they too will grow old and need care one day, and no, there are no guaranties that their kids will be around to care for them. I would not even treat a bug like they treat the elderly in some places. Posted by: Adele Prince | Oct 17, 07 08:13 PM

just watched your show on nursing homes.l am a nurse's aide. The problem is there is not enough staffing.Two nurses do 20 to 25 residents. Sorry to say we can not keep a eye on all of them. We try our best. l love my job but am very sad the way homes are being run. l walked off the floor at my last job. Couldnt take it anymore. l also worked with Marie that was on your story. She is a very good nurse. l do blame the government. And to the head of staff, please show more respect to your staff. Posted by: janice stamand | Oct 17, 07 08:16 PM

I just finished watching the show, I just happened to come upon it. I was so disgusted by the Minister of Long term Care. Unless you are very well off most of the elderly will end up in Ward situations with the Government taking their money and self respect and giving them an allowance every month. I have been struggling with this part alone as my own Mother will be going to one of these places. I thought it was bad enough that they work their whole life to end up sharing a room with someone. Now to find out what could happen to her I would move Heaven and Earth so she doesn't end up having to go to any of these homes. Where will the Minister's parents be going? Posted by: Sandra Creighton | Oct 17, 07 08:20 PM

How could you put together such a report without even touching on the subject of the long waiting lists to even get into a LTC facility. To spend 2 minutes at the end of the show suggesting that all families have to do is spend a bit more time asking questions and simply pick and choose the best facility for their loved ones is an insult to the families of the elderly and ignores a big part of the problem. Posted by: john | Oct 17, 07 08:23 PM

My 91 year old grandmother is in a nursing home and she has had problems similar to the ones tonight. She would wake up and another resident would be in her room. The nursing home said they couldn't do too much about it. Meanwhile they have put strong magnets on the door. There is a nursing shortage in long term care facilities. Posted by: leanne | Oct 17, 07 08:30 PM

As I have just moved my mother into a retirement home I am appalled at the Ministers arrogance and lack of acknowledgment regarding issues surrounding long term care in this country. He has no clue as to the hurdles family's must go through to try and provide a safe and caring environment for their loved ones. Is he aware of the 3-5 year waiting lists for these Government facilities and the expenses that have to be absorbed by the family because they have to go to a privately run long term care facility? Is he aware that countless seniors are waiting in a hospital bed for months or years until placement in an long term care facility can be found in Canada? Unfortunately because of his position in the government he will not have to experience the brick walls the rest of us do. I only hope that when his turn comes to care for his aging parents, the dedicated nurses and support staff within these facilities will remember this investigation. Posted by: Mary | Oct 17, 07 08:38 PM

Having worked in one for 15 years, I have seen it all. We once had a resident totally destroy our nursing station and assault two nursing staff. One was off of work for 3 months, the other sent to hospital. The police thought we were making a prank call and we had to call them three times before they finally sauntered into our home and couldn't believe the terror they walked into. An outraged man, over 6' and 200 plus pounds, throwing anything he could get a hold of. It took two police officers to bring him down with a karate kick to the chest. That is only one incident of violent behavior. We were told that it was against the resident's rights for us to know what his past violent history was. The staffing is so short and the care is so heavy. Sure, hospitals are getting all the money to hire all kinds of nurses at $35 starting wage yet we can't keep any staff at the long term care facilities because we just can't compete with the hospitals' wages. Our residents are getting younger and younger and we are mixing them all onto the same floors. More and more heavy care and yet the government continuously puts more and more paper work onto us. If we don't do the paper work we get reprimanded, if we don't do the work the residents suffer. Our priorities are to be the residents but yet the government won't come through with funding. Our citizens that founded our communities get less money than the prisoners in the jails. Those are the statistics. The golden years are very, very tarnished. They deserve oh so much more. Posted by: orchard | Oct 17, 07 09:07 PM

I am an RPN and have worked in Long Term care for 12 yaers. The incidents that you have documented happen on a daily basis on the locked unit where I work. The staff that work on this unit are all committed to giving the best care that they can but we are desperately understaffed. I can understand that the staff in the video seemed to be complacent, but here are so many incidents it is impossible to monitor everyone all the time. For instance, our residents are constantly wandering into other peoples rooms. It would be impossible to prevent them. If an incident takes place in a room the staff are not likely there to intervene. We also have more younger mental health residents. They are often strong and have different needs than the frail elderly but they are all put together. I could write much more but the bottom line is we need more funding for staff. The Minister of Long Term Care, George Smitherman should be ashamed of himself. Posted by: Anne Bridges | Oct 17, 07 09:11 PM

I also work in a long term care facility...REIT...and this happens all the time...whether one wants to admit it or not....assault whether it be verbal or physical happens. Why? Because we are understaffed and over populated. The facility keeps bringing in clients in the facility even though they know it is short staffed..so we can't do our job properly. The clients don't get the care they need. The ratio is supposed to be 3.5 per staff member but now it's 10 per staff member. Government? Well they don't end up in the facilities that are understaffed, do they now? They should go and have a tour without even letting the management know they are coming. Then they'll know what's going on. You let management know when you are coming and they put staff on the floor to show that everything is OK. But when all is done, the problem is still there. The almighty buck talks and our elderly suffer. The elderly paid all their life they should retire and have dignity in their old age. Posted by: concerned citizen | Oct 17, 07 09:12 PM

I had an aunt living in a long term care facility. This assault, whether it be verbal or physical, hurts. Understaffed and overworked staff in long term facilities is the biggest problem. Does the government have eyes wide shut? Haven't our elderly paid enough in their lives? Do they have to keep paying? Elder abuse isn't just verbal and physical. The lack of care is also abuse. No staff equals abuse. Posted by: Lise | Oct 17, 07 09:24 PM

Minister Smitherman should be ashamed of himself for twisting words and reality. There are not enough RNs in long term care and not enough front line staff (PSWs) to care for the mentally well elderly. Add in the mentally unwell and dementia residents and the staffing is by no means simply adequate. We are taxing the system with the scriptive legislation as well as the punitive inspection processes that measure compliance only in relation to legislation and not to the inadequacies of government funding and susequent lack of RNs and front line PSWs, dietary aides and, program workers. Ideally, the federal government needs to play a role and establish national standards for levels of care, staffing requirements and funding. Ontario LTC homes contain the highest levels of care and service requirements by residents and the highest compliance standards of all provinces and territories. Ontarians should be demanding a full audit and operational review of the MOHLTC to determine why the public is suffering from its "bright idea management" model and ineffective allocations of funds to the areas is greatest needs. Smitherman clearly does not understand the needs of the mentally well, the mentally unwell and the mentally impaired elderly and therefore his ministry's funding plans need a review. Posted by: Theresa | Oct 17, 07 10:21 PM

I happened upon your show and have to agree to disagree with some of your comments and views. I worked in longterm care for many years, both in a open environment and looked units. The nurses are trained to deal with the aggression of those residents [code white] As a nurse we also know our residents/patients, which could be a risk to others. Yes there is the possibility of aggression, but as nurses we deal with that fact and that fact is evident during training. You have focused on one issue in one location [Ontario] I would rather see a show that shows how to deal with this problem, and present those areas/locations. One 2 minute episode of one location, doing something right, does do not do the system any justice. When I nursed in those settings, the residents where all treated as if they where our own family, aggressive or not. We knew them very well and their families. So do we blame the nurse or the gov't for lack of funding and training. What was your point in airing this program? Posted by: m nelson | Oct 17, 07 10:24 PM

I agree with several other comments here regarding the government guy. What a jerk! You must have caught him by surprise, Erica. When did you do the actual interview--before or after the election? I'm in my 60's and my parents are in their 80's and, thankfully, still ok living in their own home, but we often talk about what if? Posted by: Judy Brooks | Oct 17, 07 10:37 PM

Oh my gosh!!! I am so glad that someone has finally done an expose on this issue. my mother is in a long term care facility and has recently been put on the secured unit (due to her Alzheimer's) where violence is a major problem, as is serious short staffing. Luckily for my mom I am able to spend at least 5 hrs per day with her and am able to protect her during those hrs. She has complained to me on several occasions that a man comes in her room at night and torments her (pulls her covers off, hits her and keeps her awake). I have reported this to the management as complaints to the nursing staff go unheeded. They counter my complaints and say that my mom is confused and doesn't know what she is saying and that no-one bothers her at night as they work in there on occasion and at night no-one bothers anyone. I disagree as I have pictures of the bruises on her arms and hands that appear to be defensive wounds to my eye and they ignore my complaints. Posted by: brenda part one | Oct 17, 07 10:56 PM

How very convenient that you waited until just after the election to air this program. Shame on all. Posted by: leslie harris | Oct 17, 07 11:02 PM

To the Minister of long term care please do us all a favor find a better job then the one you're in now. I work in long term care and I see these types of problems all the time. It's not the governments fault it's the care home's. Yes we are very short staffed. It would be nice for the government to step up and help out with this problem but the chances of that happening? Yeah right. After seeing this first hand I can gladly say neither of my parents would EVER be placed in this kind of care! Posted by: This is Sickening | Oct 17, 07 11:03 PM

I am a nurse in a long term care facility. The staff are slow to respond often because they are expected to "save" the victim and risk inury to themselves in doing so. Staff are daily seriously hurt and resources are not provided to them to adequately handle these situations. Undermedication, overpopulation and misconceptions by the public are rampant. These girls working in these facilies are often under 5'5" and 120lbs and are expected to stop a huge man who may weigh as much as 200-250lbs from a violent attack. Health authorities are usually unwilling to provide securiity and no one cares about the staff so this mindset just gets passed on to the residents. Also, do not forget the sexual assualts that are just as common as the physical and more demeaning. Posted by: Rose Schulte | Oct 17, 07 11:08 PM

I witness many times a day, in the short period of time that I am there, men and women in the hallways hitting, kicking, punching and even pushing other residents. I have also seen the other residents and some are men coming into my mom's room and if my mom or her roommate are lying down those other residents are trying to pull their covers off or get in the bed with them. No matter what I tell the staff they just say "it's okay they are no problem" and they just take the problem person out of the room but they come back in 5 minutes and they have to take them out all over again. People are always going around naked and urinate all over the place and even defecate and smear it all over. If you dont put a lock on your family member's belongings the other residents pick it up and tote it away and even wear it or destroy it. Today when I was there watching your program it seemed like you were filming out in our hallway it was so like our home. I witnessed 4 fights between residents today and tried to get help but on this floor they only have 2 psw's for 32 residents which have a variety of needs some are alzheimers, dementia, cerebral palsy, severe head injuries and other psychiatric problems. When our home opened they accepted 17 residents from Toronto. Posted by: brenda part two | Oct 17, 07 11:09 PM

i work in a special care unit, and what I am concerned about is the staff's well being. I am abused almost every time I go to work and no one cares. I agree that the aggressive residents should not be in a nursing home. they should be in another place where people are trained to look after them properly. Why does the government even suggest they come to a nursing home, and why does a nursing home take these people? Do they not care about their staff? Or about the other elderly human residents? Posted by: rather not say | Oct 17, 07 11:42 PM

I presently work at a care facility and understaffing is a commom problem. When the government chose to go with private facilities they should have also paid an adequate amount to staff the facilities at the same levels as the government facilities are staffed. The government needs to be held accountable for staffing levels. There should be a policy in place to take care of these problems. We have aggressive residents hitting staff and other residents almost every day. The problem is more complex I think than just sending all demntia residents to a psych.facilities, as there aren't even enough of those places around. This research needs to continue to be exposed and different provinces need to be reported on. Posted by: concerned care aide | Oct 18, 07 01:20 AM

Watched your program - a good thing that someone is thinking of the elderly, as obviously the higher-ups are not. My mother in law is in a fairly good nursing home, but although she is 89, her brain is fine and she would tell us quickly if there was a similar problem there. Can't imagine my husband or I having to go into a place like that. By closing all of the mental health institutions, this is what we are facing. I guess we pay our Minister of Long Term Care enough that he won't have to go into a place like that. It was obvious that he couldn't care less about it either. I hope you continue to look into this terrible situation and thanks for trying to help the helpless. Posted by: M. Hardie | Oct 18, 07 02:33 AM

I found this show very disturbing. Smitherman sounded like an idiot. Read the comments. We must not sentimentalize the elderly and this situation. Lack of staff for the aggressive puts the others who are frail in jeopardy. It's very frightening. Posted by: tes | Oct 18, 07 02:49 AM

I am, and have been a HCA and RPN in a nursing home for 23 yrs.We have been under the "Ministry" for years,and actually have crawled out of the "compliance issues" with the "Ministry " that used to run us. If it wasn't for our union (CUPE 65) and the support for our Nursing Home in our district, there would not be a "Long Term Care Facility" in our area. Your show made me cry. I have been there every day I go to work. The actual bullshit that they give the public is disgusting. I can say, that if anyone wants to see a change in "Long Term Care" then just come on up North, where no one wants to work. The staff we have, the support from our communities is amazing, even after the "Compliance Officers" came in and raided our facility. Thank God, we finally got someone who could manage us. I had a grandparent in my facility, and I sure wish that we would have had a management team in place then. Why is it that it is always the workers, NEVER THE MANAGEMENT OF THE HOME, OR HOSPITAL OR LONG TERM CARE FACILITY, THAT IS WRONG? After dedicating my Nursing career to the elderly, why do I have to watch this on TV? Where in this show did you ask the DON (Director of Nursing Care), or the UN (Unit Co-ordinator) for the wing or floor, or maybe someone should ask the highest paid person in the facility, the administrators. Who does the public think runs these places? Where does everyone think their dollars are going? Not to staff!! Just a thought, maybe you should do another show, and let's start with the top this time. I think you would be amazed.I know I would, knowing what I know. Lorelei Caldwell, Proud RPN of RainyCrest, Long Term Care Facility, Fort Frances. Ont. Posted by: Lorelei Caldwell | Oct 18, 07 06:44 AM

I left long term care because the staffing levels are horrible and put residents and staff at risk. It is a safety issue. When you have only a few minutes to spend with a resident to wash them up, toilet them, get them to the dining room you are hurried. The residents feel you have no time for them because there really isn't one-on-one time anymore. Private companies who run nursing homes want profit, and will cut staff until there is a skeleton crew who are so overworked and tired that what the TV show host calls complacency in actuality is burn-out. Government compliance officers are a joke. They tell you what's wrong but won't help you to fix it. The nursing homes need more staff! Posted by: Pam | Oct 18, 07 07:32 AM

Thank you CBC for starting a conversation in many homes about the tip of a large problem called staffing shortage in Canada's Health Care System. I am an RN who has been in home care, long term care, and recently went into the hospital looking for a better place to work. You know what? There isn't one! Nurses are beat on, treated like slaves, run off their feet, put in danger everyday and left by management to take the fall when something goes wrong. You want to talk about nursing shortage? There isn't one. It's a lie. It's a shortage of appealing job positions for nurses that's a problem. The majority of women today know they don't have to go to university for 4 years to work weekends, overtime, holidays, shift work, and work in conditions that put you at risk everyday of getting hurt or catching a disease. If you think I am the only one ranting... check out www.aboutmyjob.com and read the horror stories. Make the workload "do-able" and watch the nurses come back in full force. There wouldn't be a nursing shortage then. That's why you see many of them leave long term care to go to the hospital. It's better funded, still horribly understaffed, but NOT as bad as nursing homes. Better pray for a better system before it's our turn to need it. Posted by: Pam | Oct 18, 07 08:10 AM

I was completely disgusted with the Ontario Minister of Health and Long Term Care's smug, evasive and dismissive response to Erica Johnson about the issue of resident on resident violence in nursing homes. George Smitherman's "canned" and "briefing note" style answer, that things are better than four years ago, just "ain't going to cut it" anymore. The public is not looking for relative responses. They want absolute responses. To subscribe to the rhetoric, as Mr.Smitherman did, that placing these violent patients in another facility is "segregation" is absurd. This is a real problem that requires real solutions and given that the problem was identified fifteen years ago, those solutions are needed now, not later. The public is not interested in ideology. They want accountability and need assurance that their loved ones are going to be safe in their long term care "homes"..as the Ministry now, ironically refers to them. If Mr. Smitherman can't do the job, or isn't interested in doing so, then let him move on with his life, and let someone else who is more qualified step up to the plate. Posted by: Jack Simmons | Oct 18, 07 09:42 AM

I am another REIT worker and have been very vocal about the type of care these places offer. NO family member of mine will ever be subjected to the overpriced, understaffed, uncaring, money oriented atmosphere that these places offer. I urge family members to become more active in this fight. Residents and staff live in fear - and it is this wall of silence that is making the fight for a better life so difficult. Wal Mart, Dollarama, you name it - anything else has to be better than this career. It isn't a job that you can leave at the door when you walk out. It consumes you and burns you out. After 16 years of watching the continual deterioration, it is no wonder that a recent study showed this type of work to be number 1 for depression and sick days for its workers. But we have a choice. We can leave. What about the helpless victims who are defenseless. Posted by: Gwen Worrell | Oct 18, 07 10:17 AM

It is good that people are made aware even though it is so heart wrenching and shocking! However, it confirmed my feelings again on how our politicians have no compassion for people who have worked all their lives in our country and paid taxes. How convenient for them to dump people together in one place regardless of their illness or care needed. They should be ashamed of themselves. I certainly was not impressed with Smitherman in the short interview he had with your reporter. His facial expression and body language projected he was ticked off to be even questioned about this horrific situation. Hopefully this problem will be corrected by the existing parliament for all our sakes. Posted by: Helena McCombs | Oct 18, 07 10:26 AM

Because of lack of funds for front line staff these conditions will only get worse. I am part of a Family & Friends Council at a LTC home and we are very much involved in writing letters to Mr. Smitherman for more funding to help our loved ones in LTC homes across Ontario. It is disgrace that our senior citizens are not protected by the Government ensuring that their lives are as comfortable and safe as possible. After watching the interview last night with Mr. Smitherman, I now realize that he really should not be the Minister of Health and Long Term-Care for Ontario. Posted by: Pat | Oct 18, 07 10:46 AM

After viewing the Marketplace report, Im not supprised by what goes on in LTC homes. I do think this issue does not fall primarily on the shoulders of the government. I was sad to hear management staff passing the blame and not taking responsibility. At our home, if any behaviours arise, top management steps in, we bring psychogeriatric specialists, run urine tests for infection, examine the environment, involve recreation to name a few as well as get the families involved so we can get as much input as possible. Each incident we treat seriously and in a team approach. With no one on board you will have problems. Also our staff are all trained in Gentle Persuasive Approach (GPA) which deals with residents who display aggressive behaviors. We have a GPA committee, which meets to discuss issues and trends as well as dealing with residents who have aggressive tendencies. And guess what it WORKS! Yes we do have aggressive residents like any other home and probably more then others, but we have a great team which wants to take on the challenge instead of ignoring it. LTC can be wonderful, but it takes a team effort and co-operation from staff and management to make it work. Posted by: Richard Van Huizen | Oct 18, 07 10:56 AM

A good program but dripping with sleight of hand. If CBC thinks there is a problem now (and admittedly there is) just wait until the crest of the baby-boomer retirees hits, it will be absolute madness. Just how are we expected to pay for all this? Can you imagine the incredible cost of one-on-one care? It will be an exercise in futility. As we live in a "multi-cultural" society perhaps we should take a page from the lives of many immigrant families that come to this country. Western culture is a culture of greed and the self-centered, where its all about "me " and "my needs" and "my wants" and "my comforts" all to the exclusion and at the expense of others. In many other cultures the exclusion of the elderly is absolutely unthinkable and the mistreatment of those who gave us life carries a tremendous stigma. In Asian and many European homes the inclusion of the elderly in the daily lives of the family is woven into the fabric or their culture. What could be of more comfort than to grow old, be taken care of when infirm and die amongst those you love. I suggest that Penelope Petrie should have thought to that when her Aunt was in such "grave and mortal" danger. I noticed that while she wasn't awash in riches she looked like she could have easily accommodated her Aunt. I imagine that the threat to her Aunts life wasn't so dire after all. Posted by: Bob | Oct 18, 07 11:17 AM

I felt outraged with the response from Minister of Health and Long Term Care, Mr. Smitherman to Erica Johnson on the issue of violence in extended care facilities. I live in the Yukon and our extended care facility manages this challenge by separating the patients into units according to their diagnosis- for example an Alzheimer's Unit. The units are highly specialized and all units are in the one facility. The quality of care has a high reputation. For Mr. Smitherman to refer to segregating aggressive patients and thus protecting the frail elderly as a "jail" shows his ignorance and refusal to address this issue. Note that he did not answer the question posed by CBC- would you allow your mother to be in such a facility? Mr. Smitherman evaded this question and you can be sure that this would never happen. Posted by: Marilyn Reynolds | Oct 18, 07 11:59 AM

I agree with the comment posted by Bob that George Smitherman the Minister of Long Term Health is a clown. His answers to Erica Johnson's questions were pathetic and I certainly would not expect any solutions from him or his government in the near future. Mr Smitherman obviously feels that no problem exists when it comes to getting proper and safe health care for our elderly. What shocked me was that not once during the interview was he moved by the questions being asked or by the video that was shown to him. For shame perhaps you should have shown this segment prior to the October 10th election. Since you did witness the abuse on that poor elderly Italian woman I hope you took it upon yourselves to contact her family so that she could be rescued from that horrible place. Posted by: Tony De Simone | Oct 18, 07 12:23 PM

I caught your show last night quite by accident, or fate I am not sure which. We placed our mother in a nursing home about 2 years ago and up until this spring she was happy and healthy. This spring the home allowed a violent patient into their facility and your show hit home. This man was everything your show last night was about. Mom has ended up in the hospital 4 times since his arrival, and the management of the home has said the same thing every time, "she must have taken a fall" as no one saw anything else, even after a police investigation. We have been fighting to have mom moved or the man moved out of the facility all years and all to no avail, we have been ignored, lied to, had computer records go missing, and things have gotten nothing but worse. to all of you thinking about putting your loved ones in one of these homes, Please do your research, after watching this and realizing how far the system is gone down I think our mom will be coming home with one of us very soon. To all of you in Lethbridge Alberta thinking about placing your loved ones in a home, don't think this problem is in Ontario alone Posted by: Ryan | Oct 18, 07 12:49 PM

My thoughts exactly, why didn't you show this before the Ontario election? And if you think anything is going be done now that liar McGuinty has been re-elected, you're living in a dream world! Smitherman is arrogant and could care less! Now if he had elderly relatives in a nursing home and they were abused, well then it would be a different story! No, on second thought, he still wouldn't give a damn! After all it's these jerks that closed the psychiatric hospital beds, cost too much money, nursing home beds are cheaper. Aren't these liars supposedly sitting on a surplus? So spend the money! Spend it on hiring enough staff so this horrible situation can be resolved! Posted by: Kathy | Oct 18, 07 01:20 PM

If anyone out there really thinks that the staff is sitting around while on shift in LTC they are out of touch with reality. They are probably assisting YOUR MOM or YOUR UNCLE at the moment and cold not safely leave them. My mother-in-law punches, kicks and is verbally abusive to all the family. Why in the world would I think that it wouldn't happen resident to resident or resident on occasion or to staff on a daily basis. (thank you staffers for continuing to show up to work). The real problem is the lack of staff and funding dollars for LTC. Nobody in Ontario can complain this week - 48% of you didn't care and the rest of us all let McGuinty off the hook ..... Yes indeedy - the religious funding platform took all the pressure off McGuinty, and wasn't he thrilled. Posted by: Wendy | Oct 18, 07 01:22 PM

George Smitherman's reply to Erica Johnson was shocking. from the answers he gave in his interview, it is likely that he would turn a blind eye if it were one of his family members who were attacked. It's time he stepped aside and let someone with a "heart" take his place as Health Minister. Posted by: Ellie Suess | Oct 18, 07 02:23 PM

I have worked in long term care for many years. The home I work in now is exactly that - a home. The staff are caring and well trained. They work carefully and thoughtfully with the residents. Our families communicate with us and we solve problems as they arise. However, we have always known that long term care is the "default" location for people who need care who have no where else to go. There are virtually no LTC beds available for individuals struggling with difficult-to-manage behaviours related to mental health issues or dementias. I know - we've tried on numerous occasions to access these services. We do the best we can. We don't have enough funding to meet basic care needs, never mind to monitor high risk residents closely. When you are getting 8 people out of bed and dressed in one hour, and still need to attend to an agitated and aggressive wandering resident (who cannot safely nor ethically be restrained), it is inevitable that there will be problems. Mr. Smitherman, I'm tired of hearing "what this government has done in the past four years" - it's not nearly enough. You may think you deserve it, but none of us will be giving you a standing ovation. It's all about money, and you don't want to spend it. There will be more tragedies and horror stories until it changes. I'm asking you to let us take care of our people. We love them and we want to do the best we can. Fund us adequately, not under your "documentation for dollars" scheme. Also - take a close look at those homes who have a transient street-persons population mixed in with the elderly frail residents and tell me, is this what LTC is meant to be? It's what we've got. We do the best we can. Someone in the government should wake up and stop complaining about us, and help out instead. Posted by: Ali | Oct 18, 07 03:25 PM

My 48 year old sister is now in assisted living care, and is on a unit that cares mostly for older, poor seniors. There are MANY clients that have dementia and Alzheimers. She has had women and men just wander into her room. She has seen clients attack one another, but nothing is done. She experiences MUCH emotional abuse and psychological abuse from most of the staff. She goes often for 2 weeks or more...before she gets a bath. Even more shocking, is the blatant separation of the independence wing, from her wing. The independence wing has MORE staff, beautiful furniture/surroundings, gorgeous dining area, etc. She tried to go over to the independant side (to get some snacks from a shop there)...and was rudely told: You are not allowed on this side! When she asked 'why?', the comment given was: The independent seniors here don't like to see your WHEELCHAIR! It upsets them. She has fallen often, in her room..and no staff check on her. She has gone hours and hours, without a single staff member entering her room! I worry for her, every day. She is afraid to complain and afraid if I call authorities...because the staff will just continue with their power tripping. Posted by: colleen Kottmeier | Oct 18, 07 03:45 PM

I watched your special on the internet today. I was upset at how the violence in LTC is so generalized. I have worked in LTC for 20 years. I have worked for a company that doesn't care about residents or staff and I am currently working for a company and a home that DOES care. We have had hitting and yelling at my present home however it never escalates to separated shoulders or death because we care enough to know our residents. We know not to let "resident a" near "resident b" or to motify room entrances or have safety strips across doors to keep our wanderers out of other residents rooms. The call bells ringing for 20 minutes shows a complete and utter lack of leadership at that home. A well managed home does not have unanswered call bells. A violent resident needs to be properly assessed when they first come into a home (look at their meds, Program staff need to be forefront in decreasing these behaviours, staff need training in GPA or other non-violent practices). A plan needs to be developed for those that are at high risk to offend, not after they offend, but before the behaviour starts. Calling resident violence "acceptable" behaviour, is not appropriate. Those of you that work in LTC homes that tolerate this behaviour need to ask questions before YOU apply at these homes too. I would not be able to sleep at night knowing that I condoned or accepted this type of abuse. To Mr. Smitherman, I was really hoping that you would be a lot more eloquent in defending the homes that are doing things right, and demand that the homes that are not performing, to be dealt with. I feel for all of the helpless victims and their families, but you have to continue demand answers. You are paying for your family to live there and if you are unhappy, MOVE immediately and go to a home that focuses on CARE not your MONEY. Posted by: Sara | Oct 18, 07 03:58 PM

I am an administrator in LTC and this episode was disturbing. It is accurate to say that there are increase in residents in LTC with behavioural and agressive behaviours. Residents are in LTC because they are not able to live safely alone, with supports or with family. Politicians and health care public servants are employed to meet the needs of the community and frankly, the needs of the community are growing in number and kind. Funding is clearly an issue. This episode raises ethical dilemmas for us as citizens and taxpayers. The facility shown for identified aggressive elderly has high levels of specially trained staff, purpose designed technology, and space. What are we prepared to pay for? We are in this community together with a variety of unique needs. I intend to be part of the solution and encourage you to be also. Posted by: Katherine | Oct 18, 07 04:05 PM

I'm a bit confused about the closing comment posted by Bob, who stated that "I imagine that the threat to her Aunt's life wasn't so dire after all." Well Bob... she passed away a day later from the incident as reported in the broadcast, so apparently it was quite dire. Penelope Petrie did discuss the issues with the staff and they stated that "this woman was not a threat"... to anyone... as stated in the broadcast.... The whole point of the broadcast was that we need to trust our elderly loved ones to the people we trust in nursing homes and retirment facitility and apparently that is not the case. Let's not judge others on what they do and don't do and address the real issues this broadcast made us all aware of.. Posted by: John Highley | Oct 18, 07 07:59 PM

What that nurse stated was exactly true ! I also am a nurse that works in a long term care facility.We also have been receiving more and more young and psychiatric residents and the results are the same. It is pathetic that after living a hardworking, honest life these poor grannies and grandpas and placed in what should be a safe nurturing environment. Instead, these frail citizens of our society are fighting for their very lives. Some are aware of the dangers and some have returned to that child like state as their dementia progressed and are totally unable to see the danger or protect themselves. I would love to to see the cowardly minister spend 24 hours on one of these units with nobody to protect him. He would have a hard time surviving some of these aggressive residents and he is supposedly healthy except for that stammer he suddenly developed during your interview. This is and will be the result of the ever so NOT knowing government in their infinite wisdom to close those beds available for psychiatric patients,alcoholic dementia patients(very dangerous),aquired brian injury patients etc... the list goes on and on !!!!We have residents as young as 38 and residents with serious psych problems and they are all intermingled with severe dementia residents to the totally cognitive but frail resident. Trust me when I say, these psych residents don't give a rats ass that your grandmother,mother,father or aunt is frail or afraid, if they are in their way or have something they want they WILL take it by what ever means necessary. This is going to take a public out cry with consistent pressure to affect change. Maybe this very serious topic can become the "issue" of the next election campaign. Posted by: Nicole | Oct 18, 07 08:03 PM

I watched the show on elderly abuse and am not surprised. I'm only 16 and volunteered in a nursing home for about a year. During that time I saw some abuse but that was not the most disturbing. An elderly man who was considered to be dangerous was showing me his lotto ticket. When he opened his drawer I was astonished to see a knife, about 7 or 8 inches long just laying in the drawer. This is a man who they would not allow to have a razor to shave his face and I find this!? The nurses were more than happy to remove it and were grateful. Posted by: Nathan Dinnick | Oct 18, 07 09:32 PM

I would caution those who feel Ms. Petrie should have accommodated her Aunt in her home - again they are forgetting the needs and wants of the elderly, which is a huge part of this issue. Perhaps it was her aunt's wish to be independent and support herself financially, yet receive assistance if needed without relying on her family. One cannot assume that she did not choose to live in this home, nor make judgments on how the family did react, or should have reacted. Having had a father in need of long term care, I still needed to acknowledge and respect the difficulties he had in going to live in a facility. Some responders are commenting on how the elderly "so deserve" better - we must not forget that they are losing a lot more than just their independence and this takes time and support to accept. Some are just so fiercely independent they find it very hard to accept help at all. Before passing judgment on Ms. Petrie's apparent comfort in her home, some should consider themselves in the position of a relative having to either support an independent spirit or to completely change another's style of life. Neither choice is simple, regardless of one's assets and/or good fortune. Posted by: Patricia | Oct 18, 07 11:38 PM

It was too bad that Marie Hoss (RN who was being interviewed) portrayed LTC in such a negative way. I'm sure her supervisors will give her an ear full. It's people like her that LTC a bad name. For the majority, LTC is wonderful, with caring staff and great commitment. Posted by: Richard | Oct 19, 07 10:02 AM

I too work in a LTC facility in the locked unit and see this all the time. there are 2 psw's for 30 residents. it sometimes requires 2 psw's to shower or give care so the other residents have no supervision at this point. There is aggressive behaviour ALL the time and yes, they wander in each others rooms. they don't always remember where their room is so they often just find the first bed to sleep in. These are people that don't remember what a toothbrush is for or how to feed themselves. some don't even recognize themselves in the mirror and often scream when they see themselves because they think it is a stranger. We are in desperate need of extra eyes/hands on the floor! How can you be in 30 rooms when there are just 2 staff members? The government needs to step up to the plate and provide more funding and make it mandatory that there are acceptable staffing levels! the staff care and do their best. I wasn't happy with marketplaces report because they made it seem like the staff didn't care and had no sense of urgency. I would have liked you to included in your broadcast a bit of background on dementia and the various stages and the care/time it requires. why didn't you include where the staff were when the "fight' broke out? Were they changing someone? Bathing someone? Intecepting another fight perhaps? Putting someone to bed? Getting someone up? Charting (there is a tonne of that)perhaps someone was dying and they were in the room with them. Hopefully you will broadcast this story again with the complete picture! Posted by: rather not provide it | Oct 19, 07 10:35 AM

I totally agree with Lorelei Caldwell. We should start at the top (Management) When funding is given, where does it go? I am a caregiver for my 91 year old father, and in order for him to receive proper care in his final days, I am there 7 days a week, washing him, feeding him, toileting him, and putting him to bed. This is also not fair to the family members, as I do have a full time job, and have no social life whatsoever. GEORGE SMITHERMAN, PLEASE DO US ALL A FAVOUR AND GIVE UP YOUR POST AS MINISTER OF HEALTH. MY SYMPATHY GOES OUT TO YOUR PARENTS, AS YOU ARE A POOR REPRESENTER FOR THE ELDERLY. Posted by: Donna Rodrigues | Oct 19, 07 10:45 AM

I was absolutely appalled by what I saw in you nursing home documentary. Yesterday afternoon I met with a CCAC rep to arrange a crisis placement in a nursing home for my mother. Because she is considered to be a wanderer, she must be placed in a secure facility. The only concern I had was that this eliminated my first and second choices for homes in which I hoped to see her placed. That evening I watched your program and realized that secure facilities are likely to be where she will be at the greatest risk. I was heartsick to think that this was the atmosphere in which my 91 year old mother was headed. This is made all the worse knowing that I will have little or no say as to where she is placed. (If no bed is available after one week in the preferred homes you select, CCAC will place her wherever they have a bed in the county.) I was further appalled by the comments and dismissive attitude of Minister Smitherman. How is it possible that anyone like this could be our Minister of Health? The elderly and their families are at the mercy of this man and there is virtually nothing anybody can do about it with the majority his party holds in government. My mother, who suffers from dementia and cancer, cannot stay at the retirement residence where she has been living. For a number of reasons, I cannot bring her into my home. Her only option is a nursing home. Based on what I know now, the prospects are not very bright! Posted by: Bob | Oct 19, 07 11:40 AM

There are not enough nurses. Not in LTC homes or anywhere else in Ontario(hospital, community, schools....) It's foolish for the politicians to proclaim that they are going to hire thousands of nurses, there are not enough to hire. They aren't in school, the one's that Mr. Harris chased to the USA aren't coming back for love nor money. We are in a nursing shortage and it is only going to get worse unless the government begins serious initiatives for retention and recruitment in nursing. Residents are being "inappropriately" placed in nursing homes because there is no other place for them to go. LTC homes are the dumping grounds, we are not permitted to refuse any Resident in LTC. Violence in the Workplace is not normalized in LTC and all facilities should not be painted with the same brush. Many LTC homes document verbal and physical agression as well as many other behaviours every single shift. Nursing home funding is seriously lacking, we are strongly advocating for 3.5 hours nursing time per Resident per day as a minimum. The current system of funding is based on an Alberta model that has not been used in Alberta for years. Funding is given to homes if the majority of their Residents are incontinent and require feeding and 2 people to transfer them. Behaviour problems do not factor in and as you saw in the video the aggressive Residents walk very well and probably feed themselves and therefore brought the LTC home no additional funding. Posted by: Leslie Green RN | Oct 19, 07 05:19 PM

I watched your recent episode on LTC facilities. I've been working with the cognitively impaired since I got out of collage (3yrs) and, although I'm glad the shortage of well trained caregivers issue was addressed I'm dissapointed at the way people suffering from Dementia were depicted. I'm nervous that people who don't know enough about Dementia are going to think that ALL people with Dementia are aggressive. In actual fact, you don't have to have Dementia to be aggressive and not ALL people suffering from Dementia are aggressive either. The "locked" unit that I work on was originally designed to accommodate people who are "wandering" or "exit seeking" People, who if they left the home would not be safe or would not be able to find their way back. The unfortunate reality is that the unit as turned into a "behavioural" unit. The government does not fund my home to hire extra staff or to provide extra training. I think it's also unfortunate that the poor staff are acting as referees. Staff are the ones that have to get in the middle of two fighting residents and often get injured as well. It is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to be in all places at once. I think it would have been nice if you touched on the GOOD work nurses are doing on these units. We have to do what we can with what we have and MANY of us are feeling over worked and under appreciated. We are as disapointed as everyone else with the way Dementia care has gone and i think Ontario is lucky that anyone wants to work in this type of environment at all! Posted by: Melissa RPN | Oct 19, 07 05:26 PM

As I think about the posted comments on the Marketplace program exposing the violence in Ontario’s nursing homes, I’m reminded of how similar they are to the feedback on other media coverage of abuse in our nation’s care centres dating back to the 1980’s. Knowing we have been repeating the same dire message for more than 25 years while one responsible government Minister after another pretends not to hear, should tell us something about where institutional violence and abuse have historically stood on the agendas of successive provincial governments. The Marketplace program was really a lesson on what happens when marginalized groups of people are politically abandoned; when institutions and the organizations responsible for running or overseeing them fail to see or act; when “cover-up” is the order of the day. I shudder to think what’s in store for us and those we love if Canada continues to sit on its hands, allowing the violence to fester without redress or accountability for wrongs done. Posted by: Bev McKay | Oct 20, 07 02:35 AM

I work in LTC. The workload is hard. I work in special care unit. We need more staff. You cannot watch everyone. There are times when we have to stop residents fighting. You should look at the abuse we have to take as well. I had my breast bitten. We have staff go off on stress leave as being harassed by residents and residents' families. Some families are very dependent on staff and treat us like crap. Posted by: karen | Oct 20, 07 05:16 AM

Like most Canadians I was appalled by what I saw in your program. I'm sure most will agree that we strive to make our Nursing Homes a better place to live. However I'm equally appalled by the lack of "journalistic Balance" in your program. The program did not give a fair representation of what Nursing Homes are like. The CBC has a license to broadcast , not one to create sensationalism and promote half truths. A review of 5 homes in one province is not a true representation of the system. The impression given is that all Homes are like the ones shown. This is not the truth. There was no mention of the secured units in many Homes that are specially designed for persons with dementia. There was no mention of the Nursing shortage in Ontario. There was no mention about the number of other and staffing level of Health Care workers in the homes, such as Health Care Aides, Activities Aides etc, only that Nurses are responsible for 80 -150 residents. There was no mention about the rules and regulations that these homes in Ontario must follow and operate under with regards to abuse. There was no mention about the families responsibilities and how many of our elderly are left in our homes with little or no family contact. Neglect is a form of abuse. CBC you have just made a hard job a harder one. Front line workers are the ones who will have to deal with the mis -informed public due to your "lack of journalistic balance". Why did you not interview any Administrators , or the OLTCA, or even compliance officers to get their views? It is quite obvious that the CBC and Marketplace is interested in ratings first and balanced journalistic reporting is not alive in CBC. I would have expected better. Posted by: Lyle Desaulniers | Oct 20, 07 10:54 AM

In response to Richard's comment. I don't know what type of long term care you work in but if you have never experienced such a problem with resident violence in your workplace, please share your secrets. If you missed it, Marie is telling the truth. I used to work with Marie. She is a very good nurse, probably one of the best RN's I know and she is known for being an advocate for residents rights. You obviously missed the boat when watching this show. Nobody was questioning the staffs commitment and their level of care but rather the safety of both staff and residents. Maybe if some management got out of their offices and off the phone to see what's going on, they would advocate the same issues that Marie was talking about. Posted by: Sandra | Oct 20, 07 12:52 PM

As a Personal Support Worker I too was hit by a resident while on internship at a Long term care facility. Being a student I had to fill out an incident report. Staff told me if they had to fill out a report every time they got hit they'd never get any work done. I've worked in LTC, group homes, community care and I've seen examples of all of the above..And yes under-staffing is leading to systematic abuse and neglect of our elderly. The Feds had a surplus of 14.8 Billion this year. The Liberals had a surplus of about 8 Billion each year (for several years). Do they or the Ontario Gov't give a damn? No, not at all! Posted by: Eric PSW | Oct 20, 07 01:05 PM

Another grandstand performance by George Smitherman. Many Seniors groups including the Royal Canadian Legion have lobbied for an independent Ombudsman for Long Term Care and Senior abuse would fall in this category for investigation. The reply given during the interview was nothing less than a run around and an attempt to skirt this issue at hand. Thank you CBC for bringing this terrible issue to the forefront. Posted by: Dave Gordon | Oct 20, 07 08:06 PM

With out getting long winded, I'll state that I've worked in Long Term Care for over 10 years and I'm beyond fed up with the total lack of accountability towards managers, supervisors and the operators themselves. It's clear that entities such as various labour organizations, the ministry of labour, various related compensation boards and others have no interest in holding anyone accountable. If the staff are not properly trained, don't have the resources, don't have the support, etc. there's not a heck of a lot that they can do. In fact I recall that CBC Radio did a couple of series called "Dying for a Job" and "Out of Sync" with regards to violence in health care over the past couple of years and their investigations were bang on. I will close by stating that the unfortunate reality is, is that the only way things are really going to turn around and become safer for both the staff and the residents is that if there's a multitude of lawsuits and hefty personal fines placed on not only the operators, but also the individual managers and supervisors. I've worked with some great managers and supervisors in LTC over the years who were actually concerned about the safety of the staff and the residents. While at the same time I've worked with some who need to be charged with, among other things, NEGLECT. Posted by: Kevin | Oct 20, 07 09:25 PM

I urge families with a loved one in a special care unit to visit often, to watch, and listen. Pay attention.... Keep your cameras rolling CBC. This is a very real problem and the video you showed was not in the least exaggerated. Staffing levels have decreased as the levels of care rise. Workers in dementia units have no real way to protect those they care for, it is, where I work, an open bedroom door policy, no exceptions, where any resident can walk in or out of anyone's room. When there is a tendancy toward violence, that poses a real threat. A violent resident passing another resident in a hallway or common area can and does result in a confrontation. We, the staff, have brought these problems to our superiors and bandaids are applied, temporary measures that quickly wear off and the same problems are still there. I have been punched, kicked, scratched, and spit on while trying to give care. I have also, many times, had to break up fights between residents. This is not a problem exclusive to Ontario. Our system is broken and it needs fixing. Posted by: Shirley | Oct 21, 07 04:21 AM

I was a little confused and taken back by the minister's comments. "Elderly jails"? Did he understand the question properly? Unless, it was part of the interview on the cutting floor. I don't recall hearing people say in this segment that people with dementia and other illnesses who act out against others should be put in jail. The issue is placing people with aggression who are a harm to themselves and others in speciallized treatment centres so that they can get the help that they need and others can be safe. It is against the dignity of a person with a mental illness that causes aggression to allow them to attack other residents (most people who are mentally healthy would not want to attack anyone), and deny them the offer of treatment. To me, using the word "jail" to describe this is a slur. I suppose that advocates that want aggressive residents to remain mixed with general long term care residents because they fear that the resident will be isolated unnaturally despite the fact that they have proven themselves to be a risk to the safety of others, will use negative words to get their points across. It is mind-boggling that these people would expect a person who has acting out issues to compromise the quality of life for others. Residents have a right not to have unwanted guests in their room. And I'm sure these advocates discriminate against people that they rather not associate with every day of their lives, whether it is refusing entry to just anyone off the street in their homes, refusing to sit with someone on the bus who has a sickening cologne on, or even firing a member of their staff who pointed a finger in their face during a verbal confrontation because they felt threatened. Remember, some residents are telling the person that is harming them, I don't want to live with you not because of you are who you are, but rather I don't want to live with you because I don't feel safe around your behaviour. Posted by: a former staff | Oct 21, 07 03:24 PM

I am so upset over what I saw today. I was just flicking through the channels and came upon this program on Seniors Homes. I do not understand why this happens. Sure we can put the blame on this and that but that does not solve a very upsetting problem that has to be fixed now. All of these seniors have spent all their lives living in their own homes and taking care of their families and now to end up in a situation like this is beyond what words can explain. Sure there is a shortage of workers but I have to commend the nurse who spoke out on this. Congratulations, I am so proud of what you did. Others should be behind you. Ignoring this problem is just what was happening. How anyone can work in these conditions and go home to sleep at night and know that there are human beings being treated so wrongly is beyond me. It's about time someone had the nerve to open their mouth. Seniors are people like everyone. Every person has to grow old. Each person has a right to live life to the fullest. No person knows their destiny. And it has to be protected. I have my 83 year old mom still with me living in her own home and I pray that she will never have to be placed in a nursing home. And not only that but to spend lots and lots of their hard earned money to put up with such a tragic situation. It will be with all my strength that I will try to keep her safe and enjoy her remaining years with people who love and cherish her. Some seniors do not have this opportunity and there is no other alternative for them. I feel so sorry for them and hopefully, because of this problem coming to light the minister will look into his heart and make changes now. Posted by: Sharon | Oct 21, 07 05:59 PM

I'm doing a research paper for my English class in college and came across this video. Wow! I have to say I am shocked with some of the footage that I saw. I had worked in a nursing home for 2 years and I had been aware of patient abuse but not to this extent. You begin to realize that the government really needs to step up and do something about the rising rate of elder abuse in Canada and start removing residents who are aggressive to other facilities. When we send our grandparents or parents or loved one to a nursing home or wherever it may be, we would like to hope that they will be safe and will be getting the care that they deserve. Canada has to become more aware of this issue and do something to stop it from escalating any further than it already has over the years! Posted by: Natasha | Oct 21, 07 10:14 PM

I have worked a total of 29 years in home-care and LTC facilities. I have continually upgraded my college education over the years, in order to be able to render the best possible care to our residents/clients. Included in these courses have been self-defense education to protect myself against assaults and to not put myself in situations that I can be injured and Dementia Studies, in order to know the different factors involved in caring for people with acquired brain injuries, Alzheimer's, in addition to all other areas of dementia. Unfortunately, we are also working with RNs and RPNs who graduated many years ago but have not upgraded their education. Their only solution/knowledge of handling aggressive situations is to medicate. We are taking care of younger, stronger, more aggressive, cognitively deficient people which does require firstly, more staff for resident/client safety, secondly, better educated staff to have the knowledge of how to diffuse resident aggression and thirdly, more supportive administrators and directors of nursing. ALL health care providers are giving the very best care they can with the time alloted. Families, PLEASE, CONTINUE TO SPEAK UP for your loved ones, as soon it will be our turn and who will speak up for US. Posted by: still care after all these years | Oct 22, 07 01:14 AM

Thank you so much for sharing people with the horible realities. I am hoping you continue the job and cosider these facts in the navigation: 1. The Staff's aggressive behaivour 2. The goverment's care about the matter 3. The aggressive residents' replacement in Psychiatric Nursing Homes. Unfortunatelly, media and people are much more sensitive towards children than old people who need love, and compassionate care. Posted by: minoo mosallaei | Oct 22, 07 08:30 AM

Registered nurse Marie Haase speaks for many registered nurses in Ontario who work in long-term care homes. Violence between residents is escalating, despite very detailed Coroner's Inquest recommendations that were made in April 2005 into the systemic effects of violence between residents in these facilities. Only a very few of those recommendations have been implemented two and a half years later, and violence has continued to escalate since then. Marie very eloquently spoke about the limited resources available to long-term care homes that prevent them from hiring enough RNs and other staff to intervene and prevent violence in this challenging environment. RNs such as Marie continue to advocate for seniors in Ontario, who deserve respectful and safe long-term care. Posted by: Linda Haslam-Stroud, RN, President, Ontario Nurses' Association | Oct 22, 07 02:52 PM

What you saw in this program does not happen in Ontario nursing homes alone. It is a very real phenomenon that nurses and HCA's in nursing homes must deal with daily. Most of us do care, but with so little money and support from managers and governments our hands are basically tied. We do what we can. Unfortunately with only 1 RN (or LPN) plus 2 HCA's for every 30 residents (or more) we can not be everywhere and care as we would like to. I hope I never end up in a nursing home myself. Posted by: Wendy Getchell | Oct 22, 07 02:54 PM

I am one of the "other staff" that Linda Haslam-Stroud RN referred to and that Marie Haase RN never made mention of in this program. At the facility where I work we work as a team to provide a caring and safe environment for our resident. Activities, restorative, housekeeping, kitchen,all nursing staff- RN's, RPN's and HCA/PSW's, and yes Aministration all work together to make it a home. The issues that were addressed by M. Haase do happen and the honourable Mr. Smitherman needs to take a real hard look at what is happening in our LTC homes. More front line staff is needed. Not just RN's. More training is needed and more support from the government is needed when you have identified a Potentially Dangerous resident. We have a long way to go to make our LTC facilities completely safe but maybe if more homes worked together as a team like my home does the RN's would feel that they were not alone with 80 to 150 residents. They would have the support of the whole team. Posted by: Just one of the other staff | Oct 22, 07 09:35 PM

To "Still Care after all these years". I applaud your continuing education. I and a very large number of colleagues where I work, as well as other facilities have spent hundreds, if not several thousands of dollars on upgrading our skills, but never allowed to implement the new skills. We are currently experiencing a wave of nurse managers and the employers, who don't want highly educated staff. They are more interested in "puppets", "robots", people who don't question. I'm sure that you'll agree that this can create a very unhealthy work environment when one is not allowed to question anything. Who ultimately suffers, the residents. In communicating with a few colleagues in other cities, it's happening there also. When this happens over a period of several years, staff eventually start realizing that they can find a lot better ways to spend their time and money. With regards to still caring, we do care, which is why we work in these facilities. The unfortunate reality is that health care workers are not cared about because it's a female dominated workforce. When employers and nurse managers are held accountable for their conduct and incidents of neglect, having health care workers being treated with the respect that they deserve and providing them with adequate resources to do the job that they are trained to do, violence will decrease and other miracles will happen. Posted by: Kevin | Oct 22, 07 10:27 PM

I AGREE WITH JOHN HIGHLEY !!! in his comments about "BOB" Maybe someday, if he, "BOB "was around a Long Term Care Facility, he would know that we are constantly called, "white devils" In our facility. From there it gets worse. Those who need our facility put their loved ones there. WE DO NOT GET TO CHOOSE WHO COMES! As I have already stated, last week,let's start at the top!!! Who do the public think picks who gets our beds !!! Lorelie Caldwell , RainyCrest Long Term Care Posted by: Lorelie Caldwell | Oct 23, 07 01:56 AM

I am surprised that with all the care workers weighing in, the issue of the rather anarchistic model of care that governs many long term facilities hasn't really been addressed. In the facility I work in, we would not allow such behaviour to go on. However we take a risk every time we put a stop to it as several staff members have been formally reprimanded for protecting one resident from another. And it is ALWAYS the offending resident's "rights" that are at issue when those reprimands are given. We are told this is their home and they should be able to do as they please. We usually ask is it not also the home of the resident they are accosting? Don't they have the "right" to live free of fear? The philosophy of LTC has become outdated with the influx of patients who are NOT just the frail elderly but people with serious psychological problems, yet that system remains in place and is pushed on staff. There is precious little we can do to alter this. Of course returning LTC facilities to their original intent (caring for the frail elderly) while moving problem residents to psych centers where they receive specialized care from properly trained professionals would help. It would also cost more, and many psych beds have been closed over the years, leaving precious few of them. Still I don't think that's the real sticking point. The Minister inadvertently hit on it; he mentioned that it would not be fair to segregate the problem residents. EXACTLY the problem with the philosophy of long term care-the rights of problem residents, their right to integrate, right to self-determination are paramount. This is seen at all ends of the spectrum, the "difficult" people are accommodated and everyone else has to lump it. I do have to ask though; how many who are shocked by this documentary are ALSO shocked by the fact that we use segufixes? This is a problem that has been building for a number of years. As the baby boomers age, expect it to get worse. Posted by: char | Oct 23, 07 04:55 AM

"Why did you not interview any Administrators or the OLTCA or even compliance advisors to get their views?" First, maybe it's because of the "garbage" and misinformation these entities feed the public through their own media networks and ties and someone has caught onto it. After all it is maintain the Almighty Reputation - isn't it? Administrators of nursing homes become administrators of nursing homes in Ontario basically through short courses run, operated and funded by the OLTCA - no bias there is there? Representatives of the OLTCA can't even get their information straight when offering it to the public outside their own media networks. Take for example a recent interview on TVO. It was disgusting to watch a main representative of the OLTCA rationalize the need for an immediate $500M influx to fix the system when there is still no accountability as to how their member homes utilize the money they have already received. Police checks? Separate envelope for incontinent supplies? Education and placement of PSW's in their member homes? Someone during the TVO interview had no idea what they were talking about - and it showed! Compliance advisors - the compliance model in Ontario is the biggest joke going. MOHLTC Compliance Asvisors are in nursing homes on a regular basis for annual inspections and so called "surprise" inspections. If Marketplace could walk into a number of Ontario nursing homes and easily capture this type of violence on camera - think about it - surely the compliance advisors must see the same type of activity when they spend days in a home doing their inspections. Why aren't they speaking up or reporting it? They are RN's afterall. Nice to see the president of ONA popping out of the woodwork to comment. Posted by: name withheld | Oct 23, 07 07:43 AM

I think George Smitherman should be placed in a long term care facility for 2 weeks and then see what his answers will be. He should be made to go through what the elderly go through. It makes me sick that our elderly people have to put up with this. George Smitherman I hope one of your family does not end up in a facility with aggressive patients. This will probably never happen to you because you will make sure neither of your parents has to tolerate this kind of setting. It makes me sick. Posted by: W | Oct 24, 07 04:23 PM

Oh where to begin...several years ago my partner survived cardiac arrests, resulting in brain injury. As the staff (nurses) were not brain injury trained, they used drugs to keep this person quiet. I spent 15 hours a day at bedside and the issues were manageable. When we eventually arrived home the local 'Community Access Centre' would provide respite care. However as these persons were not brain injury trained this went downhill from day one. The Access Centre end solution was to put this person in Long Term Care. "NO" was my response as I could manage this person at home. I went everywhere I could for further testing and eventually had a 'behaviour specialist' wanting to treat us by email ...RIGHT? No way! I went to the Ministry of Long Term Care in search of funding to hire my own personal support worker. You can only get this if you have a physical disability. Discrimination? In further research I met and found a support worker with Brain Injury training and it is like night and day. We have been working with this person for over a year and are still in our own home..not in LTC like the Access Centre would have put my partner 5 years ago. I can't help but wonder how many others could not be cared for in their own home with a little 'true assistance'. This certainly would be cost effective for the taxpayers as well. Yes my life has changed, however I would have it no other way as it appears either drugs or abuse is the way! Posted by: partner for life | Oct 24, 07 07:05 PM

Sadly, I have seen this all too often working in LTC for the last 20+ years. The government needs to address the needs of the psychogeriatric population. While it's not fair to the ones that are being attacked, it's also unfair that the cognitively impaired/violent residents are in an environment where it's a constant "fight or flight" situation. In their mind often, they truly feel like they need to protect themselves. They don't recognize their surroundings, the people, and often don't understand the spoken word any longer. Imagine yourself in a foreign country where you don't speak the language and you've got people trying to force you to do something that to them, is a simple task? Would you be calm or would you try to protect yourself from your "enemy"? Your program, while informative, also generalized, I think, the response to violence from front line staff. While some may have a laissez-faire attitude, most do not. Some go home crying from what they've seen and cannot control, and some are working at Tim Horton's so they can go home with less stress. In some instances, the families of violent residents have the same attitude as parents of bullies, "Not MY dad! He would never do that" and thus they refuse to be part of a solution. Worse yet, after being called everything under the sun and dodging flying cups and bedpans, the families tell us, "You're being paid well; it's your job to take it." Not nearly enough, my friend, not nearly enough. While Mr. Smitherman can talk a good talk now, his parents aren't in a LTC facility yet, are they? Just wait and then we'll see how much he cares! I hope your documentary opens up a lot of eyes, both in Parliament and in your viewing audience. Posted by: monica | Oct 25, 07 07:59 AM

It would seem that the comments about this program were about nursing staff. From what I can gather, all nurses, doctors and social workers stick together. Why won't they speak up before it gets this bad? How can you live with yourself when this is going on. Do you not respect your parents or grandparents, elderly friends and relatives? The Public Guardian can take away the family or friends Power of Attorney for Property and Personal Care at any time. Why don't they have more home care in the home, but then again, if a family member is in community care agency's, they all gang up on the daughter or son to say it is abuse when they are tired of dealing with the family or have no clients even after they have dealt with them for many years. The CCAC some times never meets the family or the client and in some cases, don't know the previous medical history. Posted by: Sam Lloyd 1 | Oct 25, 07 01:52 PM

Most dementia patients are kind and gentle. Let's put the abusive ones in a different area. Psychogeriatric doctors think they are all lumped together, even people with previous head injuries. Give me a break. They are blaming the residents and families all the time, and nothing seems to change. Just more cover ups. Let's look how much the Ministry of Health, United Way, Trillium Foundation and private donors give to these agencies and they should be held accountable for what they spend. Instead they spend money for administration, wages, computers, etc. and don't have any money left over for their clients. Most of these elderly people are charged for the services they get and they target seniors buildings. Talk about abuse of the system, this goes all the way to the top. Posted by: Sam Lloyd 2 | Oct 25, 07 01:55 PM

Please don't let go of this story. This is institutional elder abuse. I will never forget when a resident wheeled herself down to the laundry room to ask me for a diaper: she had filled hers, but there was a quota of how many I was allowed to take to the floor. Nurses were told not to come down and get more diapers when they ran out. A brilliant cost-cutting measure -- letting people sit in their own waste. Please do not let go of this story. Posted by: Peter Glen | Oct 25, 07 03:06 PM

My mother has recently passed away but was in a long-term facility for about a year. She often had people who had mental problems come into her room and take her things and argue with her. She was in a wheelchair and I guess I should consider myself lucky that she was never seriously hurt by these people. It was common practice to let them wander around the floors. We were told they were harmless but some were definitely hostile. There were screamers there and I was even pinched hard by one lady while I was waiting for the elevator. Something has to be done by the government to change this situation. Posted by: Monique | Oct 25, 07 04:21 PM

I've been in touch during my late Mother's stay with some of these organizations such as the Advocacy Centre for the Elderly, ARCH Legal and also I went to the College of Physicians and Surgeons with no satisfied response. After she died of pneumonia in July, dehydration, infection of the bowels and bladder, one of her nails came of on her toes, and she had a hernia on her bowels outside the body. Complained to the Compliance Officer, had to go to the Access to Privacy Office and still not a word from any government office. Still waiting she had just turned 79 when she died, was in a bus accident in 1978, went back to work after, worked all her life, had a brain aneurysm in 1992, doctors said it was because of her accident, ended up in a nursing home. Social workers did that to her. Went down hill. Everbody knows stories like this. No lawyer will take this on..... and our family still suffers her loss from neglect of the home and the government. Posted by: Sandra A. | Oct 25, 07 04:26 PM

I'm going to have to agree with Kevin. I worked in community residences with people with dementia and other mental illnesses (3 women and one man), and the people hired had very little training, some had very little work ethic. None of us staff were 100% perfect, but there was a difference between those who tried and those who didn't. One woman would sleep on her shift. If you confronted her, she'd just give you a dirty look or make excuses (I've been up since 6 a.m. looking for another job, blah, blah) (she got fired fortunately). One man would watch TV and if you asked him politely to help you, he would scream to the supervisor that you were being bossy. Report most of this stuff to senior staff? They would just listen and say thank you and do little. In fact, it was the philosophy of one administrator that it was better for the agency to have untrained staff because it was cost-effective. While most staff were good and cared, there was high turn over because most people were looking for something better. There was a lot of client to client abuse going on (people hitting and biting each other). The administration told me to just attend to the incident, fill out an incident report and then look the other way, or find work elsewhere. Things did get better, but unfortunately, the administrative staff who is responsible for this home are still working today. They have not been held accountable for their actions (or lack of). Fortunately, the police are now getting a little more interested in protection of vulnerable people than they used to, but they still seem to regard it as a matter for social services to investigate. Posted by: a former staff 2 | Oct 26, 07 05:44 PM

My first question is: How have Long Term Care Homes greatly improved from 4 years ago George, if the number of resident on resident abuse has MORE THAN TRIPLED IN THE LAST THREE YEARS??!!!! I do not condone staff abuse by a resident, yet at least you should have some training provided by your employer to aid in your defense! There are flaws in the system, as there are in most systems,which is why I have become an advocate for the residents of Long Term Care Homes. They need a voice that will speak up. I am very fortunate to have an exceptional relationship with my loved one's Long Term Care Home. I have the time to play an overly active role of which I am extremely grateful! I applaud the CBC for being so open about such a sensitive topic. I also applaud each and every one of you who are helping in our crusade to improve the standards of Long Term Care Homes! I appeal to the rest of the provinces to take a page out of Ontario's book when it comes to documenting the lives of our loved ones while they reside in a Long Term Care Home. Posted by: Sue Johnson | Oct 26, 07 06:07 PM

I did not get to watch this program, but I heard about it from my mother, who told me she is going to start praying she dies at home. I have been a PSW for 10 years and have always told my mother I would look after her instead of putting her in a nursing home. I can't even list all the bull that goes on everyday because like several other people have already stated, there's no time. We don't have time to chart every time we get slapped, yelled at, pushed, then to top it off we get called in because we are not answering the bells quick enough. I decided to work in a nursing home because I loved my grandparents and the truth is there are so many wonderful residents in the home. But then there are the ones that are just mean and demanding and abusive and there are just not enough staff to handle all them. Does anyone really care that we are being abused? Not a week goes by that there is not another bruise.. We have girls that are off on stress girls off with injuries. Iam going to end this now because I could write for the next year on what goes on in the nursing home. LTC needs help now. Posted by: dawne | Oct 27, 07 08:59 PM

First off good for you Marie for agreeing to speak out against this growing problem!! I work in long term care and have for the past 12 years, I have seen and been the victim of violent and aggressive clients. There simply are not enough staff to safely manage to care for all of the complex needs of long term care homes. Posted by: LTC Staff | Oct 28, 07 04:38 PM

I want to commend Marie for coming forward to expose this heartbreaking state of affairs in our long term care facilities. As a liberal for years I was shocked at the flippant attitude of a Health Minister who is obviously not in tune with how aggressive mentally unstable people can be. He seems to handle all questions posed of him in such a rude and dismissive nature. There is no hope in Ontario I guess so perhaps other provinces will have to champion change. Mr. Smitherman, I am truly disappointed and to my local MPP Jim Bradley, I hope you take up the torch as myself and other nurses who are truly the health experts seem to have no respect in the eyes of Smitherman's ministry. I will think twice about voting liberal ever again and will never, ever put my mother in a nursing home after watching this because I know the reality that the Liberal government of Ontario ignores...I bet you got your voting proxies from these residents though...Shame on all of you!! To Marie, you are my hero and the hero of many unfortunate abused souls...I guess the government doesn't care about the residents as Mr. Smitherman obviously had a more important press conference to the right of the Marketplace camera. I am sure you sleep secure in your bed George but your mother's peer group do not. The price of democracy. Posted by: RN shocked at what she voted for!! | Oct 31, 07 08:51 PM

I have worked in LTC for over 7 years. I have seen a trend in this 7 years towards residents who are sicker, care needs are more complex/acute, severe dementia problems, and increased anxious/agitated behaviour. Put plain and simply, there are not enough staff to look after these residents. I work in a very well run facility with many, many wonderful staff. Many are "burned" out, not because they don't care, but because they do care!! A problem I see in LTC, in the area in which I work, is the "casualization" of nursing. No one is hired on a permanent basis. All new hires are "casual", albeit expected to work "full time" hours, on very short notice, etc...This is true for RN/RPN's as well as HCA's. This system is terribly flawed, at best. The government should focus on funding more regular full and part time positions, as well as creating "extra" positions for all catagories of care providers in LTC. Also, I was disappointed that this show intimated that the staff did not "care" that there were residents being aggressive. This is an everyday occurrence and when you have 32-40 people and 2-3 might be having aggressive behaviour and only 4 people to look after them how do you do it? There are definitely changes that need to be made. I agree with one poster who stated "it is a wonder anyone would work in LTC". I have 3 daughters and I have insisted that they do not consider nursing/health care for a career, when the time comes. Posted by: LShaw | Nov 2, 07 01:36 PM

Well, here we go again. After 4 months of injuries from a amputated resident that lifted their good leg,and I grabbed them to prevent injury to them, I was just cold cocked by a resident. Two black eyes, nose that won't quit bleeding,swelling,and a headache that won't quit. I was still expected to finish my meds,finish my shift and take care of 2 other serious incidents because of lack of staff. And I did, much to my husband's outrage. I am only grateful that I was the one hurt, and not another of my residents. Isn't that what we are supposed to do? Yes, the abuse from resident to resident is always, always an issue, so is the resident to staff abuse. We all need more training, more money for proper equipment,more supplies, etc, etc etc, but no one cares. As always, it is the shows like yours, the bottom dollar and who votes for who. Isn't it sad? Posted by: L Caldwell | Nov 3, 07 01:25 AM

Isn't it a shame that these pioneers who built this great country are denied the goals they fought for, in their (golden?) years? Discrimination, abuse, neglect and ignorance have no limit on age, gender or social standing. Pitiful that there is labour for VIP treatment and committees, but not for senior care or staff counselling. Posted by: Ted Burrell | May 16, 08 01:01 AM

This is so typical of anything the government has their hand in. All the politicians want is the almighty dollar and the fame of being an MP. They don't care one bit about the public - be it nursing homes, child care, veterans and so on. I swear I shall never go into a nursing home and I have made my family very well aware of this fact. I shall go to Switzerland first. Posted by: Grace | May 18, 08 01:27 PM

I just quit working in a hospital for the elderly. I worked in the kitchen. I didn't even last one month. The job load is so heavy. I am now working as an older woman's companion. I have been there for one month. The lack of staff is no surprise. I am wondering why do we have such an institutional setting. Is there no model that protects the elderly and the workers. I have been sitting with my lady and think I could cook,clean and do her laundry.(I don't do this) Then go home at the end of the day and be a good mother/wife. What is the pay for all the workers who cook-clean and do laundry in most of the institutions? We are wasting time,money,food, on treating our elderly and the workers like cattle. Why not get rid of all the workers who's workload is too heavy and place them one to one with elderly who are lonely. In the end I would bet the cost might be the same. I don't know.. I'm just one person. I just see that as I sit with this one woman I see her relax and rest knowing I am there. I have become a better Mom and wife. I leave not exhausted at the end of the day. Her stories make me want to be a better person. Maybe it's not money we need to throw at this problem but generosity of heart and mind. Value our elders and value the workers. Posted by: Sandra Esperanza | May 18, 08 03:01 PM

Why are so many people so complacent about this issue which affects all of us at one time or another? Mr. Smitherman has much to be accountable for and after his neglectful and poor dismissive comments about Long Term Care facilities, he should be FIRED! He is totally 'out of the loop' and incompetent and should be removed from office. If those at the top do not recognize that there is a problem with these facilities then we Ontarians really do have to do something and act as a whole! Who, after seeing this piece wants to be admitted to such a facility? I certainly do not. No human being should have to experience this treatment and especially seniors who are unable to fend for themselves. SOMETHING MUST BE DONE NOW. After all, there is always money for everything else in the budget, isn't there? Posted by: Linda M | May 18, 08 06:05 PM

Like most all your emails I say that we need to be ashamed. Everyone who reads these comments, statements or other articles elsewhere, including TV. How can we say we are loving and caring humans? Myself, I wonder how are we going to fix this. We can have all these fund raising, backing from many sources and we still don't seem to be going ahead. We improved on technology, which supposed increase our lifes and make thing better, Where is the better at? ALL WE ARE DOING IS GOING IN CIRCLES. In other words it is just a band aid being put on to give the appearances things are being fixed. Who is really making the profits; Not the blue collar workers. One final statement: Why can we see that it's top brass getting more richer and the front line workers in nursing homes gettin nothing. We don't even get a retirement funds that will help us retire and live comfortable. It doesn't compensate for the many years of abuse nor the physically strains we suffer for the jobs we endure. Posted by: paulie | May 22, 08 08:42 AM

I watched your program on the violence that takes place in long term care facilities. It was shocking at how the elderly are treated in these places. I could hardly contain my anger at the way that the "government" replied to the way that these facilities run. I have a sister-in-law who works in one and she stated years ago at how degrading it was to have to put up with that type of violence every day. She was considered a very devoted, caring nurse, but even she could not accept the behaviour of a lot of the people in those homes. She got fed up with being attacked and decided it was time to look-out for herself. I don't blame her a bit! Is this what us baby-boomers have to look forward to??? Well I for one would have to be lead there kicking and screaming the whole time!! I'd rather that euthanasia be legalized then go through that kind of degrading behaviour around me for the duration of my life. The present government is such an uncaring lot! They don't care about the environment, the elderly or anything else but themselves... Posted by: Anne Woolgar | Aug 23, 08 05:41 PM

After reading the e-mails, it seems both nurses and residents suffer due to the problem.Why don't we find out what is leading or causing seniors in homes to be violent.The other parts of the world have few seniors with agressive behaviours. A nurse being interviewed mentioned that the problem is caused by "people living longer" and on the same program they mentioned that people in the facilities are in late 40's and late 50's.I don't understand.It's not the "living longer" but lack of people to love us and take care of us in our old age.We live lonely lives and no one to talk to in our sunset years because, people we know are either working or busy elsewhere. We get to talk to somebody if living alone once a week. Old people are like young babies.If one does not talk or love a baby he/she will never talk and due to lack of love will be agressive. The aggresive behaviour is fighting back after hiting a wall.Let's learn to love our seniors who build the nation that we are now living in.Let's look for a solution that will help both the seniors and the nurses and not trade accusations.Everyone of us will one day get old and need someone to love us.It's easier to accuse than be accused. Posted by: emm | Aug 23, 08 05:55 PM

In 2003 my mother, then 87 years of age, weighing 89 lbs. and bedridden, was assaulted by a disoriented, male, Alzheimers patient. My mother shared a room with two other bedridden ladies in a Kamloops BC long term care home. Late one Friday evening the Alzheimers patient was brought into the establishment for weekend respite care and placed into the room with the sleeping women. When he awoke in the morning, no doubt confused, he began to wander about the room. Alarmed, my mother asked him what he was doing in there, at which time he ran over to her bed and hit her repeatedly about the head and face while yelling hysterically. One of the other ladies rang for a nurse and as my mother lay bleeding in her bed the nurses took turns trying to calm the elderly man. Three weeks later, my mother, her face still black and blue, passed away holding my hand. Even in her final days she maintained that "the poor old bugger was just as terrified as I was." When asked at the time about the incident the staff simply said that "these things happen", somehow this did not make anyone feel any better. When I wrote to the head office asking why they would put a mentally unstable, mobile, male patient in with a group of bedridden females late at night without giving any of them time to familiarize themselves with these important changes, the office did not reply. They also refused to tell me why one of the many rooms, that I knew to be vacant on that floor, was not used. Perhaps it was to save the staff time and a few extra steps....but I continue to mourn the fact that my Mothers final weeks were marred by such needless violence. Posted by: Leanne | Aug 25, 08 09:23 PM

I work with 92 Dementia Residents. I see this behavior to a lesser degree everyday, although we have a reporting system that alerts all departments. We still can have very violent incidents often. We are also facing that fact in the near future the meth and crack heads will be coming our way. In my Province the government thinks that private for profit nursing home will be able to handle these residents. Good Luck, we can barely handle the brain injured and dementia clients now. This is going to be one of the just dangerous, understaffed, untrained and underpaid fields in the next few years. Posted by: pat flaman | Aug 26, 08 12:35 AM