THE JOURNEY
INTERVIEW WITH ED PALMER
BOB MCKEOWN: HOW
DANGEROUS IS IT FOR THESE YOUNG PEOPLE THAT ARE
HOPPING YOUR TRAINS?
ED PALMER:
It’s extremely dangerous. People lose their
lives on a regular basis. They lose limbs. People
try to help other people, they fall. It’s
very slippery. It’s dark. I could not think
of a more dangerous way to travel.
All trains start slow,
but we do pick up speed. We start moving and people
come out of the woodwork. They come out of the brushes,
they come out of the ditches, out from under bridges
and run alongside the train. Here in a yard, it’s
relatively simple, as long as you don’t slip.
But coming out of the yards where most people are
hiding, the terrain is much more difficult. It’s
not flat. There are all sorts of obstacles and you
have to be an extreme athlete to be successful at
this.
These guys and gals that are running
out of the bushes or running to catch the train,
they have to run pretty quick. We’re talking
10 to 15 km an hour to jump, catch and hold onto
the train.
BOB MCKEOWN: YOU’VE
TALKED TO A LOT OF THESE KIDS, TRYING TO UNDERSTAND
THEM. WHAT HAVE YOU LEARNED ABOUT THEM?
ED PALMER:
When you see the children – I say children
because most of them are kids, but kids, 15, 16,
14 - the majority of them are in that range, 90%
of them. They’re after a dream. They don’t
recognize the risk because they don’t know
about it, but the risk for them is not achieving
the dream.
BOB MCKEOWN: WHAT’S
THE MOST POIGNANT STORY THAT YOU’VE ENCOUNTERED
IN THIS WHOLE CULTURE HERE OF RAIL HOPPING?
ED PALMER:
I think the thing that pulls are your heart is
when you see these kids, and it’s not one,
it’s a composite of hundreds that are just
looking to move on. They’re not looking
to stop, they’re not looking to steal. They
want to keep moving and I think the most impressive
thing that you see in this whole operation is
the flow of humanity. It’s not one person,
it’s all of them and the fact there are
so many everyday, that are move north, trying
to move to a different – a better world.
BOB MCKEOWN:
DURING THE GREAT DEPRESSION IN THE UNITED STATES
IN THE 1930S, SO MANY AMERICANS WERE RIDING THE
RAILS IN SEARCH OF A DREAM - DO YOU SEE ANY PARALLELS
WITH THE SITUATION HERE ?
ED PALMER: Yes. Why
are these people moving? The same reason as in
the depression. It’s an economy. So for
us, why are we here? As a company, why are we
here? Obviously we want to operate a railroad
at a profit but the greater value of what we’re
doing is trying to stimulate an economy here in
southern Mexico, provide transportation service.
The way to improve this situation is the economy.
We have to build and develop the economies of
Central America and southern Mexico and that’s
very much aligned with what you see in the depression,
when you had people moving because of economic
necessity. So the solution for us to move more
freight by train so we can improve the economy.
BOB MCKEOWN:
WHAT ARE THE CARS THAT ARE MOST POPULAR FOR THE
TRAIN HOPPERS ?
ED PALMER:
People like the tank cars because you can see
in all directions. It’s an unobstructed
view and you have ladders on both sides of the
car, so it’s easy to escape. Apart from
the tank cars, I think the safest cars and very,
very popular are the gondola cars, which are open
boxes. I think probably because you can get out
of that anywhere, jump over the edge and you go.
BOB MCKEOWN: SO TELL
ME JUST HOW IMPRESSIVE A FEAT IS IT FOR A YOUNG
PERSON TO RIDE THIS RAIL SYSTEM ALL THE WAY TO
THE AMERICAN BORDER.
ED PALMER:
To arrive at the destination, which minimum would
be the U.S. border, we’re talking 10 to
14 days on a train – various trains, it’s
not just one. We come from here and we go north
4 or 500 miles and then there’s another
railroad. You have to pick the right train or
you might go the wrong way. And then there’s
another major yard and then another major railroad
yard. And so you have to keep making the right
choice to get all the way to the northern border.
And on top of that, you know, there’s other
dangers. The heat - here fortunately we’re
in a tropical wonderland and we’ve got a
lot of water. But further north, you don’t
have that luxury. So it’s extremely difficult
and dangerous journey, at least ten days to two
weeks, if you continuously are on the train.
BOB MCKEOWN:
GIVE ME SOME IDEA OF WHAT YOU SEE HERE ON A GIVEN
EVENING.
ED PALMER:
To be here on a daily basis and experience what
happens when the train arrives, and even more
frightening sometimes when the train leaves is
– well, it’s very exciting. People
arrive, they generally try to get away from the
train, fade into the shadows until the train leaves
the station. And when the train leaves, it’s
a free-for-all. People come running out of the
shadows, climbing out from everywhere, running
to try to catch and jump on the train. A lot of
confusion. You’ll have different groups
of people from different countries and they don’t
trust other people from other countries, so a
lot of segregation goes on as they try to climb
on the train, which leads to confusion and obviously
a lot of danger.
In our point of view the issue here
is not something that we’re going to solve
by force. Latin culture is very patient and very
persistent. The authorities here and their manner
of attacking this, I think they do have a strong
initiative. But I think there’s a realization
that well, these are good kids, most of them.
They’re going after their dream.
BOB MCKEOWN: GIVE
ME SOME IDEA OF HOW PERSISTENT SOME OF THESE KIDS
ARE.
ED PALMER: Well,
you’ll see them on a regular basis. They
send them down to the border and they’re
back the next day, headed north. People didn’t
come 500 miles or 200 miles or 1,000 miles across
Central America to be turned around. You know,
they’ll send them back to the border and
they’ll come back across the river and they’ll
get on the train again and keep going. And if
it’s 8 times, it’s 8 times. If it’s
the first time, that’s a lot of luck. That’s
a lot faster.
We have a program to close the doors and put this
type of wire to ensure that people aren’t
climbing in the boxcars. Unfortunately, it’s
very common that our mechanics go along, closing
all the doors and tying them and you hear a pounding
noise from the other end of the train, boom, boom,
boom. They got rocks and they’re breaking
the wires to get the doors open. It’s a
very difficult situation that we’re trying
to deal with.
BOB MCKEOWN:
IN YOUR OPINION HOW DETERMINED ARE THESE KIDS
TO GET TO EL NORTE?
ED PALMER:
The kids that are riding the train, they have
no doubt where they’re going. They’re
chasing their dream. They’re going to the
north, they’re going to the States, they’re
going to Canada and they’re gonna make it,
they have no doubts. That’s what they do.
And some of them it’s not their first trip.
They share information between each other. They’re
very organized and they know where they’re
going.
BOB MCKEOWN:
WHAT’S THE BIGGEST NUMBER OF KIDS THAT YOU’VE
SEEN ON A SINGLE TRAIN?
ED PALMER:
I would say probably 6 to 700 people on that train.
Obviously that’s an exception. Usually there
may be a hundred to 200 people on each train.
BOB MCKEOWN:
IT LOOKS PRETTY SIMPLE JUST TO HOP ON AND AWAY
YOU GO. WHY IS IT SO DANGEROUS?
ED PALMER:
Well it looks simple but it’s extremely
dangerous to jump on a train. Most of our trains
leaving from the border leave in the evening after
we’ve brought the empty cars out of Guatemala.
So you’re not just jumping on a train in
the middle of the day on a clear sidewalk. These
people are running out of the banana fields in
the dark. They’re tripping over the ties
and the railroad materials and it’s extremely
dangerous to run alongside the train and then
to try to grab on to it and pull yourself up.
It’s a nightmare.
Here it rains, you know. We’re in the topics
and the rain makes things, cold steel, much more
slippery and extremely dangerous. And we have
a lot of accidents. Many that we aren’t
ever informed of with the people riding on the
train. To give you an idea of the danger, our
people, the railroad employees, don’t ever
ride on the trains as you see these guys. That’s
way out of our safety regulations so it’s
not something that you do. However, these guys
are chasing their dream so they’ll do anything
to reach it.
BOB MCKEOWN: WHAT
GOES THROUGH YOUR MIND WHEN YOU SEE THE INJURED
KIDS ?
ED PALMER: You see
the people, many of the immigrants walking crutches,
injured, freshly bandaged and you know that there’s
a high probability that they were hurt on the
train and the only thing you can do is try to
warn these people about the dangers of what they’re
doing. We don’t have a way to control them
climbing on the train. It’s almost an impossible
task even for the government who work in conjunction
us to try to control it with immigration, with
the army.
But these kids are after a dream and they’re
gonna jump on. So you feel guilty to some extent
but we are a victim of a situation, an economic
situation that’s much greater than our company.
It’s much greater than the Mexican state
of Chiapas or the border states. This is an international
economic issue that can only be solved by developing
the economies in Central America and southern
Mexico and that’s what we’re here
to support.
BOB MCKEOWN:
HOW DOES THIS AFFECT YOUR RAILWAY EMPLOYEES WHEN
A KID FALLS UNDER THE WHEELS?
ED PALMER:
The railway employees, especially the locomotive
engineers are extremely sensitive to the dangers
that they face and that the people climbing on
the train face. It’s something that they
have to learn to live with all over the world.
Our employees often do not even know what happens
because you’re talking about a train that’s
50 cars long. They have no idea what happens back
there.
But it is always present in your mind when you
see a guy walking around here from one of the
houses where the immigrants hang out on crutches.
So most of our employees I think try to discourage
the people from climbing on the train but it’s
very difficult.
BOB MCKEOWN:
IS THERE ANYTHING YOU CAN DO TO PREVENT THE INJURIES
AND DEATHS ON THE TRAINS?
ED PALMER:
We work very closely with the local authorities,
the national authorities to discourage the use
of the train for immigration. It is a regional
social problem, economic problem, socio-economic
problem that we can’t control. Again you’re
not going to stop this by force.
We have our program for closing the box car doors
which is a railroad regulation, a requirement
but here it’s especially important because
of the immigration there's a lot of pressure to
make sure we don’t have empty boxcars with
doors open and people inside of them.
We’ll close these doors and walk down one
side of the train and then we’ll be closing
the doors on the other side and you’ll hear
this pounding noise. Guys banging with rocks or
hammers or whatever they can get their hands on
to break the seals on the doors and get them back
open. It’s the same with the immigration
authorities. Where you’re checking one place
and they’re running and coming around behind
you, however you can to stay on the train and
keep going north.
BOB MCKEOWN:
HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THESE KIDS?
ED PALMER:
I think that it’s extremely sad that we
don’t have a mechanism to support the development
of the young kids that you see that are just looking
for a chance to learn and grow and earn a decent
living. I am impressed by their tenacity - that
they’re going to grab on to a train and
hold on for a week. Coming down to get water where
they can and they don’t know where they’re
going. There aren’t maps, there aren’t
timetables, you know.
This is an adventure for them and
the fact that they do this successfully is very
impressive.
BOB MCKEOWN:
WHY DO YOU FEEL SO SYMPATHETIC TO THEM?
ED PALMER:
You see the people pass by, the young kids with
a smile, with a dream in their eyes and you can’t
help but wish them well. I have to respect that
launch themselves on this kind of an unknown journey.
I wish that they wouldn’t climb on the train
because it’s extremely dangerous and many
of them have serious problems. But they’re
willing to take that risk.
They’re looking for economic
opportunity. Who wants to work for a dollar a
day or two dollars a day for the rest of your
life and not have any chance to grow? Their cousins
in Chicago, their cousins in Los Angeles, have
a car, they have a house, they have medical insurance
and they have an opportunity to grow. They have
an opportunity to start their own business, a
thing that many of these people don’t have
in their own home. They’re searching for
a higher level of economic security and development
and until we can give it to them or help to, to
develop that in their home countries, these young
kids are going to keep coming.
With respect to the mix of people on the train,
I think we’re talking about 90% youngsters
between 14 and 17 years old in my estimation.
With respect to women I would say maybe 2 to 3%
may be women.
It’s not an easy situation for us. We try
to participate in a proactive manner with the
local authorities, with the state authorities,
with the federal government to do what they feel
is best to control the situation. It represents
a danger to our employees. There are people who
would like to take advantage of the people traveling
on our trains.
So where do you focus? For us the issue is not
to point the finger at the immigration authorities
in Mexico. The issue is to see how we can work
in conjunction with them and the real issue at
hand is how do you create an economic revival
in Central America, to give these people a chance
to develop an adequate living in their home country.
Many people would prefer to be in their home country
if they had a choice. But the call of economic
stability and the ability to establish a higher
standard of living is extremely strong and people
are going to respond to it.
