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41:53 Runs
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Myriam Nafte - Werner Pürstl - Mike Doyle
Hana Gartner: SO WHAT'S THE PROTOCOL? WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN?
Myriam Nafte: In the event that human remains are found, generally what happens is first off we don't anticipate finding human remains. Generally a jogger or someone digging a foundation or walking or driving they they come upon remains. And ideally they'd call police.
Myriam Nafte: The police would arrive and their job is to primarily secure the site and to document the scene. Now, they are required by law to contact the coroner in the event that these are human remains. Sometimes police can't tell if they're remains that are skeletonized, scavenged, they've been dismembered or burned they may not know whether they're human or not. But they err on the side of caution and they are required to call contact the coroner.
Myriam Nafte: Now, it could also be someone who's died of a heart attack or some sort of you know victim of homicide or some suspicious event.
Hana Gartner: BUT IT HAPPENS LIKE THIS WHEN YOU GO BY THE BOOK.
Myriam Nafte: Right.
Hana Gartner: BUT, SURELY THERE ARE EXTENUATING CIRCUMSTANCES. WHAT IF SOMEONE DIES ON TOP OF A ON TOP OF A MOUNTAIN IN IN THE ROCKIES? SOMETIMES YOU CAN'T ADHERE
Myriam Nafte: Right.
Hana Gartner: YOU CAN'T STICK BY THE BOOK.
Myriam Nafte: You have to you have to make arrangements for that and the coroner has to be present. In this situation the coroner has to be present in order to authorize the removal of the remains. You can't just leave it to someone to transport the remains somewhere. You could have a potential crime scene. It has to be secured and documented.
You don't want people trekking through it and contaminating your site in the event that there are there are clues, there's evidence or evidential material that needs to be secured or transported as well.
...
Hana Gartner: AND AN INVESTIGATION WOULD MEAN WHAT? WHAT WOULD THE NEXT STEP BE?
Myriam Nafte: Ideally, you'd have a thorough examination of this body, whether through an autopsy through an autopsy, and through complete radiographs and scans.
...
The fifth estate asked Myriam Nafte to examine photos, x-rays and CT scans
of Duncan MacPherson's body, as well as the snowboard and boot found
with his remains. She also had access to the Austrian police report.
Myriam Nafte: The conclusions I came to were based on the radiographs and the photographs that I was given. The remains had been cremated, unfortunately. That would have been the ideal method of doing any sort of an analysis and drawing conclusions. I looked at what I had and based on what I saw again the radiographs are very incomplete, but there's multiple trauma sustained to the body.
Now, I had read that there was an assumption that he had died as a result of an accident. He had fallen into a 12 foot crevasse in the snow, while snowboarding. Now, the level of trauma sustained on this young man's body is not consistent with the fall into the snow from 12 feet.
Hana Gartner: WHAT INJURIES WOULD SHOW ON THE BODY?
Myriam Nafte: If he had fallen 12 feet?
Hana Gartner: YEAH.
Myriam Nafte: Probably, well based on the force the fact that he is over 6 feet tall bundled in winter clothing, falling 12 feet probably you're standard fractures of the ulna and radius, radial head fractures is a very common, maybe some breakage around his carpals and his wrist bones. Also perhaps too to vertebrae or ribs.
Hana Gartner: AND YOU DIDN'T SEE ANY OF THAT?
Myriam Nafte: I did see a lot of comminuted fractures.
Hana Gartner: WHAT'S THAT?
Myriam Nafte: Comminuted fractures are actual breaking of the bone in two or more pieces. Now, he would have had to fallen off the side of a cliff and bounced quite a few times in order to sustain that. But, again it's not consistent even with that sort of a fall.
Also, the sheering of the bone the surfaces of the bone indicated to me that they're not just simple comminuted fractures, that there's actually some tearing and sheering of bone.
Hana Gartner: BUT DR. RABL EXPLAINED TO ME THAT THAT IS NOT UNCOMMON WHEN A BODY HAS BEEN FROZEN IN THE GLACIER BECAUSE OF THE MOVEMENT OF OF THE GLACIER THAT THAT TENDS TO TO RIP A BODY AND RIP BONES.
Myriam Nafte: Well, I don't think bodies in the snow can be; their bones can't be ripped apart.
Hana Gartner: BECAUSE GLACIERS MOVE.
Myriam Nafte: They move, but you would have also seen a lot of shredding of his clothing. If if he's suggesting that the ice and the snow are tearing bones apart, then why is the clothing intact? If it's doing that kind of sheering and damage to bone, but yet his nylon or goretex jacket is fine, that's not consistent.
Now, you'll have movement of bones for sure while the body's decomposing and during thawing and ice flow and water flow you're going to have a natural separation of bone, but they're going to occur at their joint surfaces, not shattering of the shaft bone. These are these are heavy bones. You know the tibia, the femur
Hana Gartner: THE THIGH?
Myriam Nafte: Yes, the thigh and the lower leg, these are very very heavy, durable bones that are not shattered by the movement of ice and snow.
Hana Gartner: WELL, WHAT KIND OF PRESSURE WOULD YOU HAVE TO EXERT ON THOSE BONES TO BREAK THEM IN THE MANNER THAT THEY'RE BROKEN?
Myriam Nafte: At least for the femur at least 1800 to 2500 pounds of torsion and pressure, that's the pulling and the twisting, and that's not going to occur in ice flow.
Hana Gartner: SO THIS DIDN'T MAKE SENSE TO YOU?
Myriam Nafte: No, not from the movement of ice flow. I can imagine you find a bone far from it's site, because of ice flow, but again it's naturally separating. The head could have came apart that way, and had moved apart the body is decomposing the tendons, them muscle, the joint surfaces break down so you have this natural separation, not in the shaft area.
You can't have ice and snow pulling and smashing bone like that.
Hana Gartner: HAVE YOU HAD OTHER EXPERIENCES WITH PEOPLE WHO WERE BURIED IN IN ICE AND GLACIERS TO COMPARE TO THEIR BONES TO DUNCAN MCPHERSON'S?
Myriam Nafte: I've seen archaeological and never in that condition, unless they had had some sort of trauma beforehand: falling, some sort of injury with uh arrow heads or shot guns or any of those sorts of things which are going to traumatize the bone prior to ice and flow movement.
Now, in the case of Mr. McPherson, there is multiple trauma and the joint surfaces –based again on the radiographs and photographs that I saw – would indicate that there was a violent fall, yes. But, also perhaps some contact with machinery, simply because of the bone ends, the sheering the jagged ends. It's almost like a traumatic dismemberment.
Hana Gartner: AND, WERE YOU ABLE TO COMPARE THAT TO BONES THAT HAD BEEN IN CONTACT WITH SOME KIND OF MACHINERY?
Myriam Nafte: Yes, there is uh one one very similar not a very similar case, but sheering of bone where you had an individual who had jumped into the water into the lake and had come into contact with the ship's propeller, and had been traumatically dismembered. So, you have that tangling up and bone ripping and tearing, and then you see the jagged end, very similar. It's not a clean, smooth cut. You don't have these even striations in the case of someone who's intentionally dismembered somebody's whose taken a knife or a saw blade you have this jagged sheering, because the bone is torn.
Hana Gartner: SO, YOUR CONCLUSION IS?
Myriam Nafte: That it's very similar the jagged and sheering nature of the bone very similar to either coming into contact with machinery or a blade or a propeller or sorts. Now, I was given this material without any knowledge of the case or the details of the case. I was given the radiographs to look at, and that's the first thing I thought when I saw that uh the bones sticking out of the snow in the photograph. I noticed right away the jagged nature that sheering of that bone, that was his lower leg.
Now also I have to tell you that the entire knew – if you can imagine – so you have the upper end of the lower leg, the tibia, and you have the lower end of the femur shattered. So you got – if you can imagine – the entire knee is removed.
Hana Gartner: HMM HMM.
Myriam Nafte: You don't get that from falling 12 feet into the snow.
Hana Gartner: SO, BUT HERE NOW IS THE PROBLEM. AS A FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST THIS IS YOUR CONCLUSION, BUT IT IS NOT THE SAME CONCLUSION THAT DR. WALTER RABL CAME TO, AND HE'S A FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST. HE SAID, NO. HE HAS SEEN BONES THAT HAVE COME INTO CONTACT WITH MACHINERY AS YOU DESCRIBE AND THAT WAS NOT THE CASE WITH DUNCAN MCPHERSON IN HIS OPINION.
Myriam Nafte: Well, I find that interesting especially in light of the fact that the radiographs are incomplete in terms of you know the trauma that I'm looking at, the bone ends uh the radiographs don't even go any further, so the significance of the absences are not explained to me.
For example, why are the feet missing? Are they are they missing because they weren't at the site? Are they missing, because they haven't been radiographed? Or photographed? Also, where's the head in this? Uh, at the site it wasn't documented. On the radiographs they're documented and the head is intact. Now, he's concluding that uh it was the result of an accident. But, again, what sort of an accident?
I don't agree with his conclusion that it's from a 12 foot fall into a crevasse.
...
Hana Gartner: MULTIPLE TRAUMA IS WHAT THE DEATH CERTIFICATE SAID.
Myriam Nafte: Again, there were these inconsistencies. Now, someone could sustain a lot of trauma to their skeleton and not die. And conversely, they don't have to have a mark on their body to die. So you cannot base, you cannot draw your conclusions of cause of death based on multiple trauma.
Basically, essentially if Duncan McPherson had just sustained this trauma and had been found, he would have survived. You can survive broken legs and arms. People generally don't die of broken legs and arms.
Now, the level of crushing, bone crushing and sheering and separation that occurred, combined with the fact that he's in isolation, or he had fallen. He may have been stuck somewhere. Again, I really don't know any of that, and I don't they know. Again, I think they're just basing it on the on on past cases, which is a big no-no.
Hana Gartner: HOW BIG OF A MACHINE DO YOU FIGURE?
Myriam Nafte: Big enough blades, any sort of a blade or propeller, treads and that sort of thing, any kind of machinery that's going to have grinding or pick up and grind can do that sort of damage, simply because of the crushing and the sheering.
Now again, I discussed the significance of absences. There was no comment on that. Now, he's had there are missing limbs. There are missing hands and feet. And I also noticed in the from the photographs taken from the site I I what I looked what I thought to be shattered bone on the surface of the snow no one was able to tell me whether that was shattered bone or not. It looked like that in the photograph.
...
Hana Gartner: COULD YOU TELL FROM THE BONES WHEN HE CAME IN CONTACT WITH THAT MACHINERY?
Myriam Nafte: I can't pinpoint an exact time. Based on the bone and the colour of the bone surface versus the interior parts of the bone, based on that it would have occurred in and around the time of death, not long after, not too long after.
Simply because the bone would be a very different colour. For example, if you'd had any sort of bone breakage and shearing after death, long after death, ah the surface colour would be very different from the interior colour of the bone which would be much lighter because of exposure being very recent.
But because it's all very consistent and the jagged edges are quite severe, you have – I can draw the conclusion that it was in and around the time of death.
...
Hana Gartner: WHEN YOU WERE PUTTING ALL THIS TOGETHER WERE YOU ABLE TO CREATE A MENTAL IMAGE OF WHAT YOU THINK HIS LAST MOMENTS WERE?
Myriam Nafte: I had some ideas. I'm hesitant to do that because it's so difficult to recreate, reconstruct the events surrounding an individual's death especially in that environment and so many years later.
Based on what I saw, I – I thought perhaps what had happened is he had fallen while snowboarding and that would have been consistent with the fall, the trauma to the ulma and the radius, that level of fracture which is consistent with landing hard, trying to break your fall.
I think maybe he was incapacitated at that point and perhaps something hit him that would have created that level of – the crushing and the grinding of the bone surfaces of his other limbs. That perhaps is a possibility.
Hana Gartner: A TERRIBLE POSSIBILITY BECAUSE THAT IS A VERY VIOLENT, AWFUL DEATH.
Myriam Nafte: The alternative to that is that he was knocked by – knocked down by whatever it was, a vehicle or machinery and then mowed over. But that would have been – it would have hit just his appendages.
Myriam Nafte: So if he was lying out arms and legs – again I don't know the positioning of the propellers and the treads or whatever the equipment is that's going to lift and grind.