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Evelyn Martens: It's a plastic bag about 24 inches long or some of them are longer and they have Velcro, flannel in the collar and then Velcro and we close it up and the helium method entails a tube running into the exit bag. And that delivers the helium to the bag and that delivers death in a few seconds.
Hana Gartner: WHERE DID THIS IDEA COME FROM? WHY?
Evelyn Martens: Oh, the engineers and so forth. _____ had a great deal to do with that he was very imaginative.
Hana Gartner: BUT THE ISSUE IS WHAT? WHY WAS THIS EXIT BAG DEVELOPED?
Evelyn Martens: To answer the needs of so many people. they couldn't get prescriptions, they need and they were suffering. And they needed assistance so that was offered. But not pushed, not counseling. We only answered to their needs. When they requested it.
Hana Gartner: THERE'S SOMETHING MACABRE ABOUT THE WHOLE NOTION OF AN EXIT BAG.
Evelyn Martens: It really isn't. You know, if you witnessed a death with the helium method you know it isn't. It's peaceful.
Hana Gartner: THIS IS NOT THE SAME KIND OF HELIUM THAT YOU PUMP INTO PARTY BALLOONS?
Evelyn Martens: Absolutely. And all these people purchase their own balloon, toy balloon tanks or helium from distributors and they can make their own bags very easily. Not hard to do.
Hana Gartner: AND THESE EXIT BAGS AND… HOW TO INFORMATION WAS DISTRIBUTED INTERNATIONALLY.
Evelyn Martens: Yes, it was.
Hana Gartner: BUT, THIS WAS A PRODUCT AND INFORMATION THAT YOU SOLD.
Evelyn Martens: We covered our costs, we had to cover our costs.
Hana Gartner: HOW MUCH DEMAND WAS THERE FOR THE EXIT BAGS, FOR THE HOW- TO LITERATURE?
Evelyn Martens: Great demand. Great demand.
Hana Gartner: HOW WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE THE DEMAND?
Evelyn Martens: You mean how many did we send out? Sometimes 100 at a time.
Hana Gartner: SO THIS BECAME A BUSINESS.
Evelyn Martens: Mmhmm. And we never really recovered all our costs.
Hana Gartner: HOW MANY CALLS WERE YOU GETTING, WHERE WERE THESE CALLS COMING FROM, WHAT WAS THE NATURE OF THE CALLS YOU WERE RECEIVING?
Evelyn Martens: We received many, many calls from Germany, Australia, Britain, Wales. And the U.S., mostly the U.S.
Hana Gartner: WHAT WERE THESE PEOPLE TELLING YOU?
Evelyn Martens: They wanted, a lot of them, just wanted to talk to someone. Someone who wouldn't try to discourage them from their intended actions. They're in pain and they wanted to leave early….
…
Hana Gartner: LET'S START FROM THE BEGINNING. HOW DID YOU COME TO KNOW MONIQUE CHAREST?
Evelyn Martens: Well, she contacted us, she contacted me…and wanted information. So, then she asked if I'd come for a visit, I did. And we talked.
Hana Gartner: TELL ME ABOUT HER.
Evelyn Martens: She was a former nun. Very precise little woman, warm-hearted, really warm-hearted. Smiling, but in pain and she knew what she wanted.
Hana Gartner: AND WHY DID SHE WANT TO DIE?
Evelyn Martens: Because of her pain. And she was afraid that she would have a stroke and not be able to function.
Hana Gartner: BUT, IT'S WEIRD BECAUSE HER FRIEND M___ K____, WHO WAS A NURSE, SAYS THAT SHE HAD SOME PROBLEMS BUT SHE WASN'T TERMINAL. IN FACT, THEY HAD GONE FOR THEIR CUSTOMARY WALK JUST TWO DAYS...
Evelyn Martens: Previously, I know, I know all that. But, she was taking morphine, quite in heavy doses so had to be some legitimate reasons. She showed me doctors' bills that she'd had and she was convincing about her condition. She needed a cane she needed …
Hana Gartner: BUT EVEN THE DOCTOR WHO TESTIFIED SAID THIS WAS NOT A WOMAN WHO WAS TERMINALLY ILL.
Evelyn Martens: Well, I think my lawyer made him think twice about what he had done, he'd signed her B&R sheet a couple of times so she was determined to die and that's all. She had porphyria.
Hana Gartner: WHAT'S THAT?
Evelyn Martens: It's a muscle disease and her father had died with this disease and she educated herself about it and I had some pamphlets but I don't really recall but…
Hana Gartner: BUT, BOTTOM LINE, THIS IS A WOMAN WHO WAS PREOCCUPIED WITH DYING.
Evelyn Martens: Yeah.
Hana Gartner: SO WHATEVER SHE HAD…
Evelyn Martens: She was so afraid of having another stroke, she'd had one, I think this is a fear of many people. Having stroke and ending up in immobile, with an active mind in a body that's not working.
Hana Gartner: SO WHATEVER SHE HAD WHAT SHE WANTED WAS TO DIE.
Evelyn Martens: That's right.
Hana Gartner: CAN YOU DESCRIBE MONIQUE CHAREST'S DEATH TO ME? WHAT HAPPENED?
Evelyn Martens: Well, when we got there a friend and I had coffee with her, or tea. And we talked for a while. And she had crushed up her medication. And when she was ready she took her medication with some apple sauce.
Hana Gartner: WHERE DID SHE GET THIS MEDICATION?
Evelyn Martens: I don't have any idea. It was her own. And she knew, before she got too drowsy she would have to open her helium tank.
Hana Gartner: BECAUSE THAT'S THE DEAL RIGHT? THEY HAVE TO DO IT THEMSELVES. YOU DON'T.
Evelyn Martens: Absolutely, oh yes. No way.
Hana Gartner: CAN YOU DESCRIBE TO ME WHAT HAPPENED IN MONIQUE CHAREST'S BEDROOM?
Evelyn Martens: Actually, it was in the front room, in her living room. She took her medication, she sat down on her chesterfield, and we talked a bit. That's when she said that my good lord isn't coming to me so I'm going to him. That was touching. We asked her if she was sure that this was what she wanted and we could always come back another time if she wanted, or not at all. You always give them, have to give them an option. It's not compulsory for them to really go forward with this if they, they're always able to change their minds any time even at the last moment right.
Hana Gartner: HAS THAT HAPPENED OFTEN WITH YOU THAT YOU LEFT, TOOK THE EXIT BAG AND LEFT?
Evelyn Martens: No. But, she was determined to die so she took her medication, sat down on the couch and when she started to feel drowsy she put her exit bag over to her forehead and she squeezed all the air out of the bag as much as she could and then she opened the helium tank. And that fills up the bag fills up with air top of their head. And then when she was sure that she was ready, a little drowsy, relaxed from the medication, she pulled the bag down and she closed the Velcro strap and then a few moments later she died.
Hana Gartner: THERE WAS NO PANIC, THAT SENSE OF ASPHYXIATION?
Evelyn Martens: No, not at all. None at all.
Hana Gartner: HOW COME?
Evelyn Martens: The human body doesn't recognize helium as an enemy. It is not detectable. So they don't realize that they're… helium displaces their oxygen in their lungs and their body and their blood stream.
Hana Gartner: SO SHE DIED… PEACEFULLY.
Evelyn Martens: Very peacefully.
Hana Gartner: AND WHAT DO YOU DO?
Evelyn Martens: Wait till they're really dead. We know that they're for sure, that they've gone. And then we turn the tank off. Remove the bag which she'd asked us to remove, all this apparatus. And we so we did and then B_____ cleaned up the kitchen.
Hana Gartner: THE PERSON YOU WENT WITH. YOU ALWAYS DO TWO?
Evelyn Martens: No not always. And then we left.
Hana Gartner: CLEANED UP THE KITCHEN.
Evelyn Martens: And we took the bags with us, the bags and the helium tanks with us.
Hana Gartner: NOT TO TIDY UP, BUT TO GET YOUR FINGERPRINTS OFF OF EVERYTHING.
Evelyn Martens: Well and to tidy yes, and to get your fingerprints off of things.
Well you know… the only place my fingerprints were was on
the tank. Because you're shutting it off.
That's it. That was it.
Hana Gartner: WAS THERE A SUICIDE NOTE?
Evelyn Martens: No, she didn't want to leave one. She said I'm still a Catholic at heart and I don't want to cause any anguish to the church.
Hana Gartner: BUT YOU DIDN'T EXPLAIN TO HER THAT BY NOT WRITING A SUICIDE NOTE IT COULD CAUSE YOU THE PERSON WHO'S HELPING HER ANGUISH?
Evelyn Martens: Right, we did try to explain that but she said no I'm sorry just can't do that. So that's the way it was. I should've insisted that she write a note. But, I didn't want to do that either. This was not what she wanted. Her friends and all the people in Duncan realized, they knew that she waS, she talked about death a lot to all of them. This woman knew what she wanted. She wanted control of her own life and of her own death, that's what she wanted.
Hana Gartner: TELL ME WHAT TOLL DOES IT TAKE ON YOU DOING THIS SORT OF WORK, BEING WITH SOMEONE IN THEIR FINAL MOMENTS, SOMEONE WHO YOU DON'T REALLY KNOW THAT WELL?
Evelyn Martens: I think you feel a bond with them, you empathize with them and you're there to comfort them so that they don't have to die alone and it, yeah, I think each one, every death would be… take a toll, a little toll. Because you are emotionally involved with these people. But, it's something I felt I had to do.
Hana Gartner: SOME PEOPLE WOULD SAY YOU ARE A DEATH PROVIDER.
Evelyn Martens: No, I don't feel I am, I'm a comforter.
Hana Gartner: WHAT DO YOU GET OUT OF IT? PERSONALLY?
Evelyn Martens: Personally, the fact that I've helped someone. Just by being there. I guess I'm a very caring person and it matters to me. That people should have the death that they want. And shouldn't have to die alone. It's lonely to die alone. I'd like to die with my family with me. My children all support me and they said the only thing they ask is that I be there if and when I decide to die. Unless death is fast or you know unless I don't have to, take any measures myself.
…
Hana Gartner: SO, FOR YOU IT DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER SOMEBODY IS TERMINAL OR NOT ALL, IF THEY JUST HAVE A DEEP DESIRE TO STOP LIVING, THAT IS ENOUGH FOR THEM TO REACH OUT AND GET THE ASSISTANCE THAT THEY ASK FOR?
Evelyn Martens: Well, terminally ill is of course a… it's final and you know it's final and when they're not terminally ill well… it's up to the individual but I don't believe that I've ever talked to anyone that wasn't really terminal, we're all terminal. Monique thought she was terminal.
Hana Gartner: SO JUST A DESPERATE DESIRE TO DIE IN YOUR MIND SUGGESTS SOME SORT OF PAIN A PSYCHIC PAIN IF NOT A PHYSICAL PAIN?
Evelyn Martens: Absolutely.
Hana Gartner: AND THAT'S JUSTIFICATION ENOUGH.
Evelyn Martens: Not always, oh no, not always. You know, we have to be competent, one has to know exactly what they're doing and why and they have to have good reasons, and they have to have explored all their options and psychiatric assistance or whatever they need.
Hana Gartner: BUT IN THE END IT'S SUBJECTIVE, YOU DECIDE WHO YOU ARE GOING TO HELP YOU DECIDE WHO YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HELP DIE.
Evelyn Martens: I guess.
Hana Gartner: SHOULD IT BE SO?
Evelyn Martens: No. No it shouldn't be so. Should be safeguards in place. Oregon's has a physician assisted suicide and I don't believe they've had any abuses there.
Hana Gartner: BUT THEY HAVE SOME VERY RIGOROUS GUIDELINES. IT'S NOT IF YOU WANT TO DIE…
Evelyn Martens: Oh no, no. No. And you know I don't believe that I'd help someone who just wants to die either. I wouldn't want to encourage them or sit with them or anything. Monique thought she was terminal, she was in pain.
Hana Gartner: SHE THOUGHT SHE WAS TERMINAL.
Evelyn Martens: She thought she was terminal.
…
Hana Gartner: WHILE YOU ARGUE THAT ASSISTED SUICIDE IS NOT ALWAYS WRONG IS IT POSSIBLE THAT IT'S NOT ALWAYS RIGHT?
Evelyn Martens: Absolutely. There can be a lot of abuses. It's not governed there's no aren't any laws, no one's looking after it.
Hana Gartner: SO WOULD YOU SAY THAT IN THE CASE OF ROSEMARY TOOLE THAT THIS WAS REALLY STEPPING OVER THE LINE? IT'S WHAT PEOPLE FEARED, WHAT THEY CALL THE SLIPPERY SLOPE?
Evelyn Martens: Possibly. But it was her decision. Was her body. Sue Rodriguez
said, who owns my body. Hey we should, why not. It's my body
if I wanna die tomorrow, I will. And that's my right.
Hana Gartner: BUT ON THE ONE HAND YOU SUGGEST MAYBE THIS IS AN ABUSE, ON
THE OTHER HAND YOU SAY IF A DEPRESSED PERSON REALLY WANTS TO DIE
THAT IS THEIR RIGHT TO DO AND IF THEY SEEK HELP THEY SHOULD GET
IT.
Evelyn Martens: Well I don't think they get the help if they were only…
Hana Gartner: ROSEMARY TOOLE DID.
Evelyn Martens: Well yes she did.
Hana Gartner: THIS WAS THE FIRST PUBLIC CASE OF A DEPRESSED PERSON GETTING HELP IN A GETTING ASSISTANCE IN SUICIDE. BUT IS SHE THE FIRST PERSON?
Evelyn Martens: I don't know. But she wasn't only depressed, she told
me she'd had excruciating headaches and that she couldn't
live with that. She couldn't hold a job, she couldn't work.
She said her life was in ruins, was enough, she'd had enough.
I tried to talk her out of it a lot of times. And she went to a
church on Christmas Eve and she was happy about that and I said
that's fine that's, keep going. But that decision was
hers.
…
Hana Gartner: ARE YOU STILL HELPING PEOPLE DIE?
Evelyn Martens: You mean am I still sitting with people? No, I'm not, I haven't been asked.
Hana Gartner: WHY?
Evelyn Martens: I'm not part of the membership anymore. I'm still a member of the Right to Die but I'm not in a position to receive requests.
Hana Gartner: YOU'VE DONE YOUR STINT?
Evelyn Martens: I think so. I'd like to try to get some laws changed, get the law looked at again.
Hana Gartner: WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE HAPPEN?
Evelyn Martens: I'd like to see happen that Oregon would be a good place to start. Physician assisted suicide and as long as people are competent, and are terminal or even not terminal long as they're competent they should have the prescription they want and that would be it that would be better.
Hana Gartner: WITH SOME GUIDELINES.
Evelyn Martens: Lot of guidelines.
…
Hana Gartner: YOU CLEARLY HAVE NO REGRETS ABOUT WHAT YOU WHAT YOU DID, ABOUT THE CAUSE YOU'RE FIGHTING FOR BUT, IT'S BEEN A LONG HAUL. IS THERE ANYTHING THAT YOU DO REGRET?
Evelyn Martens: Well I regret the effect that it had on my family and the burdens they had to go through. I know during my trial everyone in my family was there except one and they took time off from work to be with me and I know they worried about me. They were really concerned about me having been in prison those 5 days and it was hard on all of them, I'm sure it was and I do regret that aspect Of my life and what I did.
Hana Gartner: WHEN IT WAS OVER DID THEY SAY YOU PAID YOUR DUES LEAVE IT ALONE?
Evelyn Martens: Yes.
Hana Gartner: THEY DID.
Evelyn Martens: More or less. More or less, yes they said you've done enough now, relax, let someone else take over but who's gonna take over? Who's going to take over who's going to do this?
…
Evelyn Martens: I met Henry Morgenthaler in Ottawa in June.
Hana Gartner: HE GAVE YOU AN AWARD.
Evelyn Martens: Mmhmm.
Hana Gartner: WAS THAT MEANINGFUL?
Evelyn Martens: It was. It was very it was very touching, was very pleased, honoured.
