It looks like from the movie tape on the bridge with 4 people crossing the bridge they had something to do with it.I went to kingston for school and never know people that hung around that bridge but air force people,I think its a cover up,question everyone that went to that school that year with a lie detector test from RCMP.You well have answers.

I have been a civilian worker at the Kingston Military base for more than 10 years now. In my time here I have constantly witnessed this type of incompetence and lack of care regardless of the size of the issue. A comment below hit the nail right on the head..If this were the son or daughter of some high ranking military or political family, it is guaranteed that RMC would have been sealed tight until a full investigation was completed. They don't care about Joe or his family, all this place cares about is money and "protecting the shield" and making sure you parents continue to send your kids to RMC and/or into the military.
Look at all of the unanswered questions posed in these comments below. It is true, the military DOES know what happened and unfortunately for this family I don't think they ever will.
This is one parent that will never allow any of his kids to pursue a career here.

The Doc mentioned water was not found in the lungs of joe Grozell's body. It is my understanding that this usually means the person ws not breathing when they hit the water. How then could they label this a suicide?

Perhaps the Grozelle family would be interested in contacting Lysa Mateu. She is a psychic/medium in the U.S. who has written a book, Psychic Diaries, and has appeared on a number of TV/radio shows in the U.S. I've never had a reading with her, and have no personal connection to her, but she seems legit to me - grounded, compassionate, ethical, and brings a no-nonsense kind of attitude to her work. Her website is www.channelingspirits.com. Her fee is quite high, but if she is accurate, the information she could provide would be priceless. I'm sure the Grozelle family has been praying for information about what happened to Joe. Maybe this is a way for God to bring some answers to them, albeit through an unconventional source. As Shakespeare wrote, "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

My heartfelt sympathy to Joe's family. This without a doubt is an extremely flawed investigation by the military. One wonders how someone can be missing for 3 weeks, unless he was forciby held against his will, by unknown assailants. The four men seen on camera must be involved, they appear to be military personnel. I believe that the military know how this young man died and are deliberately withholding information. In this day and age an autopsy and forensics should be able to provide conclusive evidence, regarding cause and time of death. This case cannot be closed until the truth is found.

I have always believed in your reporting; but after seeing the program about Joe Grozelle for the second time; I am wondering why you did not or the benefit of the doubt to you; were not able to release more about the two autopsies. I am wondering how much sensationalism may be now put into programs that we trust with accuracy.
My condolences go out to the Gazelles. This whole thing does not add up and I would think that good journalism could fare better than this.
J. MacDonald

My condolences to all relatives and friends of Joe.
Generally,there are 2 reasons:women and money.
Hard to believe,that police don't know about that.

First of all i'd like to pay my respects to the Grozelle family , I of all people no just exactly how you are feeling . I pray for you and hope you'll find justice for what has happened to your beloved son Joe ! My son was not in RMC , Tho he was incarcerated in the Kingston area. I have found many similarities in our son's cases ? Nither our families have recivied any answer's concerning our son's death's, botched coroner reports, unfair coroner inquest, and i also have never believed the suicide theory , we must remain confident in God and have faith , God Bless Our Son's May They Rest In Peace...!

So, I happen to have been interviewed in the making of this video, in regards to the suspicious character peddling financial services. Knowing him as well as I do, and after reading a number of comments in regards to activity around the area, a lot of pieces are coming together for me.

This man has quite the reputation to uphold, particularly at the time of this incident, and if word of gay activity got out then, he would likely have been devastated, so I could easily see motivation. Perhaps Joe was determined to make public some sort of sexual advance, and it wasn't well received at all. This man has never revealed that he was actually barred from the campus grounds, I learned a number of facts after watching the video.

While I do still hold the man in high respects, his background has been questionable at times, as well as aspects of his current lifestyle. His access to campus facilities likely dates back to his attendance there. He's known to talk his way out of many troubles, is extremely intelligent and capable, and quite frankly could do whatever he sees fit to accomplish a goal.

I am far from making accusations, but simply putting pieces of a very complex puzzle together. I don't know what a lot of others who know this man have to say, but I'd say more concrete evidence is needed before it can go one way or the other.

This is the first I knew of this case when seeing the episode June 19, 2009 on CBC. First of all, my condolences to the Grozelle family. What they are going through cannot be imagined by most of us. I applaud them for staying so vigilant in their quest for answers, they must as no one else will do it for them.

These are the questions I have:

-when his girlfriend woke at 0100 that morning and saw Joe working on his paper, what was he wearing and what was on his feet?
- was Joe's desk close enough to a window that he could lean over and look out or be easily seen from someone outside? (He may have witnessed something he shouldn't have)
-normally dormitory hallways are noisy. did anyone hear a door being slammed in the middle of the night? (indicating a struggle or leaving in haste) If not, it may have been closed quietly to indicate Joe left on his own accord.
- what did his girlfriend notice when when she woke the next morning? What happened to the paper he was working on? Did it get handed in?
-are girls allowed to stay in the dorms?
-when seen the next day, did no one question him on why he missed classes?
-since he was located 3 weeks later in the water, why was there no water in his lungs? If a body is in water for that long, it gets grossly disfigured by bloating. I'm assuming this was not the case.
- obtaining a copy of the Pathology report should say something. In BC, it is the Pathologist who physically completes the autopsy and gives their report to the coroner. Who completed the autopsy? An independent or someone employed by RMC?
-If the body was placed in the water the day it was found, it would have had to have been dragged to the waters edge or carried by more than 2 men. A dead body is extremely heavy. Was the area checked on both sides of the river?
-My thought is the school building itself needs to be scoured. A building that old (and built for a military purpose) more than likely has holding cells in the basement. It may be worth a look.
-who requested the call out of the NIS Investigation Team? The same person who authorized it? There has to be a paper trail in this regard.

This is a classic "cover-up" by the Military. Many people know more than what they are telling. Let's hope their conscience is eating them from the inside out.

has there been any recent information found out or discovered since the airing of the episode?? Have any of the any questions both the family and viewers posed been answered?

I just watched the show today and find it alarming that this investigation has gone the way it has.

The fact that no water was found in the lungs during the autopsies suggests that he wasn't breathing prior to entering the water? This in an of itself should be a clear indication that something is up? How long was he in the water? How long was he dead prior to being found? They should be able to answer these questions at least?

Why was he half dressed? Was he led out of the room in the middle of the night? Only given enough time to put on his shoes and a pullover?

I wonder was this a hazing or initiation into "a" fraternity of some kind that went wrong?

After what happened to the Canadian Airborne Regiment GOD forbid if something came out about RMC? This alone would be motive enough to attempt a cover up, even if it was an accidental death.

I think there are people who know a little more than they are saying and whoever they are I pray they come forward.

I watched the program last night i and i would like to extend my condolences to the family first and foremost.

However, the manner in which this we reported was very slanted. Very much wanting to accuse the RMC.

I do have a basic question , which was NOT addressed in the program.
HOW LONG was his body in the water?? that answer would help answer more questions, but it was not discussed. Any coroner would be able to determine the length of time in the water, or identify if drowning was the cause of death.
there was no clear indication that there was any evidence of substances, or external trauma.......so how could they conclude 'suicide'??

I found the absence of such discussion/data presentation very misleading and i have lost some respect for news programs , they are clearly wanting to 'capture an audience' and not report the facts.

Again... my condolences to the family.... I believe there are times when God just does not feel that we should always get answers.

I am sad by the families loss on such a promising service man. Suicide is often unexplainable but to days society often looks to conspiracy theories and not the obvious. I have spent 29 years in the service and several years in Kingston. The thought of have someone commit murder at 1 am on a rain night in Kingston is absurd. I understand the families desire for conspiracy theory but look stats of suicide.

My condolences to Mr. & Mrs. Grozelle and their family. No words can heal the pain of loss, not to mention the unanswered questions surrounding Joe's death.
This case is plagued with too many unanswered questions. Foul Play or murder, obviously. Mr. & Mrs. Grozelle must press like David Millgard's mother. Press the PM, press DND and any minister attached to DND. Press NIS, press the media to keep it alive. Demand to be allowed to ask the right questions during any inquiry. Demand that national security allow you full access to each and every document related to the death of your son. Demand that every one of your questions be answered. If this were the son or daughter of some high ranking military or political family, it is guaranteed that RMC would have been sealed tight until a full investigation was completed, The Grozelle family deserves the same commitment, period. If everything was done correctly and there is no murder or no foul play, then all the questions will be answered openly and honestly...

Dear Lynden MacIntyre

What about the Mulroney Schreiber story?

The clock is ticking and all is silent.
Everything was demonstrably untrue and Mr. Allan Rock gave a 2.2 million dollar apology.

We want our money back plus interest and penalties.

Is Mr. Harper covering up for Mulroney?

Like most I was quite moved by the Fifth Estate Report on Joe Grozelle, and I am quite upset at the absolute lack of answers provided to the Grozelle family. A basic cause of death, where not provided today, is completely unacceptable. A probable cause of death is without question, bizarre.
If there exists some ex-cadets who have the truth about what was presented and can provide some light to the Grozelles, then I suggest they come forward and do so. If the reporting was inaccurate, then I for one would like to hear from the Grozelles about it.
I cannot comment on Mr MacIntyre’s reporting accuracies, any more than most, however, I think it is at least fair to welcome criticism and rise above it. Raging against criticism is the very invite to avoid the main issue. How did Joe perish? And what is the institution of The Royal Military College and DND doing to solve the mystery? There should be no shame, disgust, or privacy on the part of DND and the Grozelle family to find an answer.
Ron Grozelle, Lynden MacIntyre, and all possible theories, are not the enemy of DND or RMC. Narrow-minded quick and predetermined investigation is the enemy here. Mr MacIntyre did no disservice to the college at all, in my opinion, and as much as he may be disliked, he asked a relevant question, which deserves an honest response.
I want to know what happened, and I don’t care who finds out or by what means. I support any method, and I have ZERO fear of anything tarnishing the continuation of RMC as a unique and excellent facility where I am proud to have graduated from.

I support the Grozelles 110% and as an ex-cadet, encourage everyone to due the same, which in turn demonstrates the very heart of the College. Truth. Duty. Valour.

Viewpoints which ask the Grozelles to let it go and move on, condone a Blind Trust with Authorities, show a complete disregard for Truth and basic humanity. It is up to the Grozelles and NO ONE ELSE to have the final say as to when to let go, and it is our duty honour, respect and help to find peace and/or a known conclusion to the mystery.

Thank you, first of all, that the family finally did receive some decency, kindness and support - from you at The Fifth Estate. As the youngster, Archibald Macdonnel(above) is unable to understand, a parent of a child never lets go, not ever, not at any point until they have, as Joe's father said, discovered the answers.
I hope that the family also hires an expert forensics specialist as did the desparate parents of the young skier in Austria (The Ice Man). As I listened to your investigation, I imagined a soft midnight knock at Joe's door. Perhaps the man about whom the students had made complaints sent some friends to convince Joe to a help in a supposedly urgent situation. Maybe these men were in uniform. Perhaps when Joe discovered the ruse and refused to cooperate with whatever he was requested to do..things got ugly.
There are clever 'bruise free' ways of killing people.
I wonder if this man was/is made significant financial contributions to the school? Why otherwise did he have permission to roam the sleeping quarters of young students? Why was there no water in Joe's lungs after the first autopsy? Where was his body stored before it was placed in the water? Yes, I hope the family does hire a true qualified forensics specialist. I send my sincere sympathy to the family and former girlfriend of this dear young man.

I don't think the coach ever claimed to be an expert on the matter, and I don’t believe him to be military? He was however, the only person from RMC to really speak up and it is no surprise that RMC officials did not. Innocent people scream that they are innocent until justice is done; in the case of RMC, perhaps their silence speaks louder than words.
Some may call what the coach said as acting inappropriately; I call it acting with truth, integrity and principle, characteristics in my opinion, which make strong soldiers and qualities the military, have rarely demonstrated in the execution of this case. It is clear the case was handled irresponsibly by the authorities and there are people who know more than what they are saying. What ever happened to truth, duty, and valour? Are they only to be practiced at the convenience of the teachers who preach them? Seems like deceit, contractual obligation and a whole lot of lions without courage to me. Asking the Grozelle family to just “let go” would be to ask a soldier not to fight, to stand there, to give up, and just surrender. I hope the Fifth Estate will probe deeper; the Grozelle family will keep fighting, and those who harbor information surrounding this tragedy will come forward.

There are some familar overtones to the way this government and several agencies have handled the Grozelle investigation, compared to past investigations. One such investigation I would like to point out is what happened to S R of Kingston in 1997. The cause of death was completely distorted by canadian authorities until the family hired a pathologist from the USA to get to the truth. I would recommend Ron Grozelle do his best to have a autopsy performed by a american pathologist if he would like to learn what caused his son's death. My condolences to Joe's family and friends.

No one can possibly expect to have ALL details of the investigation to be able to draw any foregone conslusions, delivered in a one-hour episode. This is real life, not CSI:Kingston!
RMC is a fine institution and the talk of military cover up and a poor investigation will only feed the Grozelle family's (particulalry Mr. Grozelle) obsession not to mention instill fear in other parents whose kids are now at RMC.
It's a tragedy, no question there.

Please if dangerous rituals and extreme hazing is still going at RMC today than someone needs to shed light on these pracitces. I have concerns that this could be the cause of young Joe's death. Yes, of course I have an invested interest in this because my son is their. I have asked him, and he is new in the program and hasn't experienced anything severe with the exception of his basic training which he knew was going to dufficult physcially and mentally, but we haven't heard of any hazing or dangerous rituals until now, and trust me I hope we don't have too. However, I will be askig more questions the next time I see him in the flesh. Someday it could be your son/daughter or grandchild exposed to these dangerous rituals or extreme hazings. The question to be asked is this something we want tolerated??? Again those of you who are aware of this please don't keep slient. This is wrong and needs to be exposed!!!! There also needs to be more investigation into who these four individuals were entering and exiting the ground of RMC the evening of Joe's disappearance. I am hoping and praying answers will come for the Gozelle's family and all the families who have blessed and released their young wonderful kids to attend what they know will be one of the biggest challenges of their lifes gradutaing from RMC. Believe me as parents we are all well aware of the drop out rate!!! THIS IS FAR FROM NORMAL UNIVERSITY!!!!

Our National Police force (RCMP) should have been involved in what is perceived as a "suspicious" death 5 years ago. How can this investigation not be contaminated 5 years after? There should an open Public Inquiry. Unbeleivable that 5 years after this tragic event, the family of the deceased victim has more questions than answers into the death of their son. Something happen that night and someone somewhere must know something!

How can you go missing from a place like the RMC without being noticed?

The mysterious death of Joe Grozelle raises the same kind of questions that the CBC Fifth Estate Program, 'A Knock at the Door' did in January 2006, concerning the death of 21 year old John Kevin Connellly, a pharmacy student at the University of Toronto, whose body was found at the base of his high-rise apartment building.

As with the tragic story of Joe, both featured a botched investigation, the totally unsatisfactory Ontario Coroner's actions, an instant label of 'suicide' by so-called investigators who wound it up before it started. Also troubling in both stories are the reports of suspicious people in the area (in the Grozelle case - video cameras, and in the Toronto Police Service Connelly case, withheld-until-recently eye-witness accounts of suspicious men in the building.

As for the previous comment by Archibald Macdonnel(above) "there has to be a point where they let go", along with his gratuitous insults of Joe's basketball coach, who spoke the truth of his direct experience with the young man....it's hard to know whether to laugh or cry. Any parents who would be satisfied at such an appalling response to the death of their son, to the mindless labelling of him as a'likely suicide', is an outrage.

Congratulations on a solid piece of journalism, and let's hope The Fifth Estate keeps up their relentless pursuit of the truth in the tragic and highly suspicious deaths of these two wonderful young men.

FIRST I MUST ACTKNOWLEDGE THE LOST OF THIS BEAUTIFUL SOUL. MY GREAST RECARD AND SYMPATHY TO THE GROZELLES FAIMLY, ESPECIALY THE PARETNS.
NOW HERE COME THE BLUNT ROUGH TO THE POINT OF INSULTING PEOPLE'S ABLITY TO NOT RECONIZE FOUL PLAY. THIS IS SO VISABLE RIGHT IN YOUR FACE.
AS A FORMER NURSE AND A MOTHER. I CANT COMPREHEND WHAT THESE PARENTS GOING THROW. NIS MILITARY CORNER RCMP. YALL DONT FOOL ME ONE BIT.
WHY WOULD THIS STUDENT DO HIS HOMEWORK OR ASSIGNMENT ONLY TO COMMIT SUICIDE. THAT IS A NASTY SLAP IN THE FACE FEEDIN PEOPLE THIS CRACK.
WHY DID HIS BODY SHOW UP ON SHORES . AFTER 4DAYS OF INTENSE SEARCH. WHAT IS THERE SOME NEW TECHNOLOGY THAT SIGNALS THE DEAD FOR APPOINTS.
I FEEL STRONLY IF THE CORNER IS INVESTIGATED ABOUT HIS FINDINGS. AM SURE THAT WILL OPEN A BIG CAN OF WORMS.
AM NOT SURPRISE BY ANY POLICING FINDINGS REGARDLESS WHAT COUNTRY.
WE SHOULD ALL INSIST HARPER DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS MAN DEATH. HIS FAMILY NEED HEALING. GIVE THEM THE RIGHT TO BE JUSTIFIED.
THE INDIVIDUAL WHO STATED. THIS FAMILY AT SOME POINT NEEDS TO LET GO. WHY DONT YOU LET GO OF YOURSELF.

FROM A CARING WOMAN, WHO IS WELL FAMILIAR WITH THE ON GOING INJUSTICE ON EVERY LEVEL BECAUSE OF HAIR AND SKIN COMPLEXION...
BLESS THOSE PARENTS. I CRIED FOR THE FATHER GOODNESS. SUCH PAIN IS A CRIME WITH IN ITSELF.
THIS WILL BE SOLVED I KNOW CREATOR GOT THIS ONE.

As a Canadian interested in the history of the CF my first reaction was "Vandoo Mafia" got him. It would explain alot as the government and the army have to ignore what the Vandoo get up to - challenging them would be challenging Quebec, and Canadians don't do that or they'll cry. Put it this way - in civilian life you have the 'Hell's Angels' in the military it's the 'Vandoo's'. Real men don't need gangs.

I laughed out loud when I read that the NIS had been characterised as an "elite" investigative unit.

That "elite" unit, along with the Military Police as a whole, have little (read no) experience with investigation into serious crime like murder. As a general rule before the creation of the NIS, the Military Police handed investigation for serious crimes over to the local RCMP or city policy. The reason? You need experience and procedures in place to investigate serious crimes.

My own experiences with the Military Policy suggest strongly that anything beyond simple control of evidence is beyond their level of expertise. They are good at what they do - which is to provide security on CF establishments. They are not, including the 'elite' NIS, experienced at investigating serious crime.

That experience included representing a person charged under military law. When I viewed the interview video tapes I could not believe that a senior member of the NIS had violated basic rules of interviewing - which led to the entire case being chucked out at hearing without even considering the merits of the case.

Let's just hope it is not too late for a competent police force to investigate.

I was a co-worker of the lady who discovered Joe's body on her way to work at Environmental Sciences Group of RMC. I learned of her discovery within an hour of her seeing it floating under the bridge. The night had been stormy and that could explain why his body surfaced.
She might be able to shed some light on who interviewed her after the discovery.
I f there is anything I can do to help I will.

My sympathy to the Grozelle familly, we went throug the same thing you did My brother was on duty and they say he fell from a 4 story building and all kind of crap which we know he did not do and told us suacide rigt away without an autopsy but when the autopsy was done by someone else than the milatary the coroner did not want to give it to the military and at the end everything was brushed up by military and they still stand on suiacide We still have no answer today he died
in Sherwater N.S. on oct.2004 ,six month of his 20th year and at the age of 45. The Gray Familly

I was extremely disappointed with your documentary “shadows of doubt”, it was a very biased program trying to place blame on the military and the NIS. The facts are simple, he was last seen at one in the morning and then he was gone. The military did everything they could to find Joel, inform the family, and look after his burial. If he had gone to Queens he probably wouldn’t have been reported missing for weeks and that institution would have done little to nothing for the family. Your show focused on the NIS investigation, what about the police investigation? The coroner couldn’t even determine how he died. Of course the NIS left after the body was found, there was absolutely no evidence on what happened. There are many possibilities of what could have happened, your documentary provided none, maybe he went for some fresh air by the water and slipped and fell hitting his head on the rocks (did you see the shoreline around the RMC Peninsula?), maybe he’s a sleepwalker, maybe he walked into town for a coffee or fresh air and people pushed him off the causeway, maybe he did commit suicide. I didn’t see any journalistic talent from your staff in looking for answers, it was a witch hunt to bring down the credibility of the NIS.

Also your interview with Coach Norman was ridiculous, of course there was reasons why he was asked not to keep calling the family, just because he’s too stupid to understand why doesn’t mean your show shouldn’t explain why (there are certain protocols in informing next of kin when something serious has happened).

I am embarrassed that a Canadian show would portray such a biased documentary, it’s ethically wrong and by putting garbage like this on the air to get ratings you are taking away credibility of an institution/family of which Joe was a part of.

Some advice: actually use some investigative journalistic talent by helping the Grozelle family get answers instead of feeding Mr. Grozelle’s obsession at blaming someone for his sons death. Im pretty sure there is a 100% Cause of death that the coronar released and the family knows about, the investigation was looked over by the city police and the RCMP and it was done very well. Mr Grozelle should be dealing with his son’s death and be proud that his son was part of and doing so well in an institution like RMC.

I wish to commend the Fifth Estate for doing a fine,
sensitive job to bring this story to the public. The shock
of the story, on Canadian soil parallels a previous,
haunting story about a family who did not get justice,
The Ice Man, which happened in Austria. The value of Joe
as a person. regardless of being an RMC student, was not
upheld with such a incompetent investigation. If there
was no substance detected in his system, was he hidden
somewhere until placed in the water, when the search had
died down? Theories and speculation does not bring peace
to the family,but evidence would. I appreciate the comments of other viewers. Do not let this story die.
I send sympathy to Ron and Minnie.

I was very troubled while warching this report on the web today. The RMC - one of the top, if not the top military academy failing to uncover the cause of Joe's death despite the presences of Canada's top military investigative units. The Fifth Estate is to be commended for their report and I hope Linden McIntyre - a gifted journalist and the rest of the determined crew continue to search for answers. It is inconcievable that the cause of death cannot be substantiated to the satisfaction of the parents and all others. My sincere condolence go out to the parents, family and friends of Joe. My prayers will be with him.

I'm dumbfounded. This has gone too far. The military investigative personel involved should be summarily fired, pay and pension stopped as should the general staff at the time. I'm a vet but did not fight to permit conduct/acts like this. Despite what any one says these people are public servants and no one should be permitted to take over with no questions asked. Perhaps it's time we brought back the stocks and flogging. Discipline and respect seem to have gone "out the window" now.

DND DOES NOT PAY FOR SUICIDE. Ok, now that I have your attention....as I understand it Department of National defence does not pay if an employee (ie cadet, soldier etc) commits suicide so often for the sake of the family they often play 'stupid' so the family gets his/her pension/benefits. Often it has to do with a family and children so they are almost used to coming up with excuses...unfortunately maybe this cadet really was harmed but the NIS 'assumed' it was a suicide and therefore tried to cover it. I know everyone is all about the government being bad, but I am sure it is to 'help' the family - however misguided.

Oct. 17/08

I watched the Joe Grozelle story on Fifth Estate.

Of course like many I looked for clues to help the family.
I am a sailor right in that area and I know the waters.
If you could forward this info on to Joe's father I would appreciate that.
I was curious and decided to look up the wind history for that area at both the time Joe disappeared and when he was found.

1) Wednesday Oct. 22/2003 - Kingston - (Joe Missing) North Wind all day into the night and early morning at 13 km/hr. The RMC College is on the east side of the river and if Joe did go in the water from the RMC property where he was last seen then the north wind would have drifted him south and right across to Wolfe Island and completely away from Kingston.

2) Thursday, Nov. 13/2003 - Kingston - (Joe Found 8:50am) - West Wind of 250 degrees at 37 km/hr (strong)
Joe found onshore on east side of the river. Strong west wind would have pushed him onshore there. He may very well have fallen off the bridge or entered the water from the west side of the river (Kingston City side), where it is ALL RMC barracks and RMC property along the waterfront.

If you have any questions I would be glad to discuss this. dangodspeed@hotmail.com
Wind Data History taken from www.ec.gc.ca

Hope this helps!

Dan

As the father of a OCDT I really related to Shadows of Doubt. Our son left for boot camp in St. Jean, PQ two days after his High School Graduation and it was a gut wrenching experience. Communication was very limited, he was clearly going through a process that we did not understand; I still feel that it was one of the most difficult periods of our lives as parents. However, our visit to St Jean at the end of boot camp, to RMC at the end of recruit term, other visits to RMC including the heartwarming, emotional, and patriotic Graduation ceremonies were all very reassuring. We were very impressed with the quality and maturity of the Cadets and by the military personnel we met. I can't imagine what Joe's family has gone through! I hope with all my heart that they find answers but I also know that if they don't they will have done everything humanly possible to have found them. I sincerely hope they will find peace of mind one way or the other!

Thank you again to Linden MacIntyre and the Fifth Estate for another excellent investigation. To the Grozelle family, my condolences and encouragement to keep going.
I feel the key to the investigation should be the times when Joe's behaviour first began to depart from normal. I want to know where he was, what he was doing, and who he was with when he skipped classes. If he was alone and unoccupied during those times, then I would be much more likely to accept the concept of suicide. I find it hard to accept that Joe wasn't called to explain his skipped classes by his buddies at lunch, or by his girlfriend the following night.
I know there is only so much you can cram into a 1 hr. program, but if you do a follow-up that's the info I'd want to know.
Maybe a future program could cover the ever increasing number of young men like Joe who have just 'vanished'.
In Kelowna, we have been missing Aaron Derbyshire for 2 years - a nice clean living guy who just vanished!

We were all model cadets.
The NIS are not boogie men or some super-secret police force. They investigate crimes.
The whole thing seems like a Hollywood plot because that is exactly how the Fifth Estate wants it to seem.
In my time, several model cadets died. One drowned in the locks after a party. Another guy (who didn't die) put his fist through a window and then wandered out on to the ice and passed out in a pool of blood. Kids do stupid things.

Wow, for anyone to suggest "there comes a point in time when a family should let go following the unexplained death and circumstances of their son's death, is shocking, to say the least. Sounds to me like the military, or one of their spokespersons is trying to give just cause why this young boy's death should be "taken to his grave - and kept there". If it weren't for the Grozelle family, I do not believe there would be an ongoing investigation. We're all tired of "conspiracy theories", so in good conscience and for the sake of this family and all Canadians who sons and daughters are serving in the Canadian Military, this murder/suicide must be cleared up. I find it hard to believe from what I've heard from Fifth Estate's investigative reporting as well as from information gleaned from the Grozelle family that this young man would take his own life. I do, however, have one question: How did Joe Grozelle managed to keep his shoes on his feet after floating in a river for three weeks? No, the military is not exempt from placing blame where blame belongs, and IF it is with someone within their organization, then bring them to justice. We all deserve to know the truth! My condolences to the Grozelle family. Don't stop asking questions until you get the answers you deserve!

I guarantee fellow RMC students are perfectly aware of what happened. As a family member of an RMC alumni, I have heard many stories of extreme hazing and dangerous rituals dating back to the 60ès that I believe are still being carried out today. Late at night and with no person to supervise---anything can, will and has happened. Best to keep up the impression of crew cuts and formed lines---this is a cover-up. My thoughts and prayers go out to this remarkable man, is friends and family.

it was nice of mr macdonnel to add his 2 cents worth to the discussion. but there are also 2 things that are immediately apparent, one is that you are or were part of the military and secondly you ARE NOT a parent or you would never have thrown that last highly inflammatory comment in. as such you can be excused for it. i also find it highly prejudicial that the military is investigating itself as with the Airborne regiment in Somalia it was only thanks to the media that the truth came out and was not covered up.

as a parent if my child was allegedly or otherwised killed i would search for the truth no matter what and since there is no statute of limitations on murder or suspicious death i don't blame the family one bit for continuing to want to get at the truth.
i have one idea that may get to the bottom of this matter once and for all and i know this will sound despicable but the former Girlfriend of Joe's should be offered full immunity in return for a complete and truthful disclosure of the situation. as in the Paul Bernardo case (except for the videotape evidence discovered later) you sometimes have to make a deal with the devil in order to get at the truth.

my sincerest hopes and prayers go out to the entire family of Joe Grozelle hopefully the whole truth will come out.

I hope the Grozelles never let go until someone can tell them how and why their son was taken from them.
I can't imagine what they are going through and they have my sincere condolences.
I have the utmost respect for them that they are keeping Joe's story in the media and making people aware of the situation.
As a parent myself I would go to the ends of the earth to find out what happended.
I believe that somebody must know something. The military cloak is vast it seems.

I am a mom of young man who is presently enrolled in RMC. Stories like this make me want him to come home and study at Dalhousie. Is this how our future Canadian Leaders and their families are treated? Am I only one of few who thinks these young men and women who choose such and education and life be treated with great respect and dignity? Believe me most of my sons friends thought he was crazy to consider this type of education and career, but for him it is about service and making a difference for his country. He has had an educational trust fund set up for him for years so money didn't play a role in his decision!!!! I spent several years in the reserves and do have some understanding of military life. Where is the honor for Joe and his family in this mess not to mention all cadet who choose RMC.?? I truly hope the continued investigation brings honor to this renowned Canadian Instition!!

I sickens me that some of the commentators below would even contemplate the idea that the Canadian military would cover up or stonewall the investigation into the death of one of its own. What do you people think the military has to gain from acting like that?
There is no evidence that Grozelle was on duty that night - he was a normal Canadian citizen like you and I. If he had died in the conduct of his duty, fine - but the evidence shows that he quite clearly was not on duty the night he disappeared. Should the military be held responsible for the actions of a 20 something who takes off from his university residence in the middle of the night? I don't think so...
I note that the Fifth Estate conveniently overlooked the testimony given by one of Joe's friends at the Coroner's Inquest that he had attempted suicide while in high school. Tell you what - if I'm a cop looking at the disappearance of a young person, and I find out that they had a suicide attempt in their relatively recent past, my thoughts are going to move down that road. I also note that the program overlooked the sheer amount of resources that have been put into the various investigations, from the initial ground searches for Joe, to the various police investigations, to the 2 Coroner's Inquests and now to, what I understand, is a pretty massive Board of Inquiry that has been going since the beginning of 2008. Give me a break, folks - sometimes answers won't be found no matter how hard you look.

I'm not about to start debating on this. However, Archi from Ottawa.. GIVE YOUR HEAD A SHAKE. I knew Joey, we are from the same small town. I watched in horror as our town was completely torn apart over this. I sincerely hope his parents as well as the rest of us never lets this go until it is solved. I believe they're all suspicious at the RMC, every last one of them. Just come out with it already and stop all the B.S so no one has to hurt any longer. I definately wouldn't want my children to attend a college this clouded in conspiracy.
In addition, I do not feel that anyone's personal statements regarding Joey would affect an investigation that has been ongoing for five years.
God Bless, Joey. And take care Grozelle family.

Apologies if this is addressed somewhere, but I didn't hear or see it.

I speak as a person with a history of depression and as a person who has attempted suicide.

The MOST important piece of evidence that I would be looking at would be the paper that Joe was supposedly working on early in the morning (as witnessed by his g/f). If he was suicidal he certainly would not have been working on a class paper. If there was a complete or partially complete assignment that he had been working on that morning, I would almost guarantee he didn't commit suicide.

On the flipside, if that paper was not found much more credence could be given to a suicide theory. Either he was doing something unrelated or perhaps even penning a goodbye note.

Was this paper looked for? Found?

I watched the show last nite with great interest as my oldest son is a 1st year OCdt at the RMC.

I was shocked to see how poorly the investigation was handled from the start & right up to the current findings. This is unnacceptable & I would not give up questioning & pressuring the RMC & all other law enforcement agencies that were involved. I am sure this is what the Grozelle family is doing but why should the burden be put on them to find out what happened to their son while he was at the RMC. The Military, along with the OPP & RCMP should have been able to uncover much more information & evidence than was shown on the documentary last evening. It is not hard to feel that something is not right.

I am very sorry for the Grozelle families loss of their son Joe & feel they deserve more amswers than they have been given. I will never forget Joe Grozelle's name now & will pray & hope that the family gets the answers they need & deserve in order to accept the loss of their son Joe.

TRUTH DUTY VALOUR

There are two rumours in Kingston surrounding Joe's disappearance...one revolves around ghost stories in "Dead Man's Bay" near where Joe was found....a woman is sighted in the shallow waters and calling for help, the rescuer is then taken under. This would explain the lack of clothes that Joe was wearing. The other, and more plausible rumour, comes from Kingston's Gay community....the area around the base/college has long been a cruising/pick up spot after dark and i have had two people tell me that they were warned away from a male in a red pickup truck who pretended to be a lover but quickly turned to violence. These are rumours only, but possibilities to be explored

I rarely watch tv but this program captivated me. I really hope answers are found and those who have the answers have the courage to come forward with them to put closer to this situation. Time is precious, years have gone by and it is unfair to selfishly protect the truth, someone is dead because of it.

I wanted to suggest (since this seems to be a drawn out situation) that sometimes psychics are consulted for some ideas or clues. Might provide some considerations that may have not been thought of before. Especially since you have a video with four people - might be a good resource?

My blessings to the family for continuing their journey for thier son and for Fifth Estate in helping them.

Thank you for helping more of us to support this issue Fifth Estate!!

I was stunned watching your show last night. As a citizen of Kingston we have not seen anything in the media about these ongoing concerns. It happened on our doorstep!
If he killed himself, how???? There was no information on or in the body, so how did he do it?
It screams of military cover up to me and RMC trying to protect thier "stellar" image.
Give his family some peace, someone out there must know something.

To whom it may concern:

My name is Lisa Johnson, Joe was a year younger than I, and had gone to public school and as well as high school with him. It is crazy to think that anyone would want to hurt Joe or that he would want to hurt himself. It just doesn't make any sence. He was a great guy. I am deeply saddened for the Grozells, I don't understand why someone hasn't come forth with any significant clues as to what had happened that night.

I know that I'm not a private investigater, but the only question that comes to mind, was there a secret serority?, and was it part of anishiation and something went wrong?

My prayers go out to the Grozells, and hope that someday they will get the answers to the unanswered questions.

All I can say is that the RCMP should have been brought in from the beginning to investigate this case instead of wasting the families precious and valuable time. I hope a through investigation is done once and for all as that's all that the family is asking for.

I would like to express my heartfelt sympathy to the Grozelle family.

Everything in life going his way, body of young and very fit man found in floating in lake.

No water in lungs.

No way it is suicide.

Hopefully upcoming RCMP investigation will call this out.

The truth remains out there.

I couldn't help but feel shame at being Canadian wash over me as I watched the horror story of Joe Grozelle's death and subsequent inquiry last night. Someone, somewhere knows that happened to Joe, and its reprehensible that the Canadian Military itself isn't itself the driving force behind uncovering exactly what happened to this poor young man....on of 'theirs'. How he was so quickly buried without a reason for his death being provided boggles my mind. No wonder the family is beside themselves wanting answers. Guess what? Now there are a lot more Canadians who want answers. Something smells, and if I gambled, I'd bet the NIS is the best place to start. The whole thing is like a Hollywood plot, with some ego-maniac pulling the puppet strings. Its time that somebody is held accountable for this tragedy. What can be so important that it needs to be hidden from the public? Really makes you wonder.

- There will never be answers until we find out who was leaving the College grounds around 1:10 a.m.
- Why did Joe skip the morning classes, where was he?
(My hunch is that Joe was on the bridge but with whom)
- There is no mention of room checks or hall monitors.
- property left behind does not automatically suggest that a person is suicidal. They may have likely left the room for a moment with the intent of returning. Going to the washroom etc.
- Who may he have met in the hallway or at his doorway? Who has a dorm room in the same area?

- What evidence was initially collected by the Military Police from Kingston? Was the hard drive of Joe's computer analyzed? When was the last key stroked?

- Was any property located on Joe's body when recovered?
- Did Joe have scars on his chin prior to being reported missing and the subsequent autopsy?
- Why was there no seal on the body bag for the sake of continuity?
- Did the clothing description given at the time of the report match what was located with Joe's body?
- Was the area re-examined to see where tis stone may of come from that was located in Joe's left front pocket?
- The marks on the nose and chin, any re-interview to establish if they were present prior?
- Was Joe clinically diagnosed as suffering from depression? (medical records)
- There was no water found in the lungs during the autopsies which suggests that Joe was not breathing when he was submersed into the water. Was the entire College searched?
- There was no mention of Joe's body being possibly dragged, how about carried by one or more person's.
- I believe one or more students that were present at the College during the investigation have not been forthcoming about the truth.
- In the interest of a case of this magnitude more people should still be provided with a polygraph test.

Great story, but a sad one, of course. I feel for his friends and family. My questions: Why did seven NIS investigators show up the next day if he was deemed to be "suicidal"? Why did they need the elite investigative squad if he was deemed to be suicidal? If their answer to the above two questions is that they didn't know that that would be their conclusion, that doesn't explain the urgency (nor the poor results). If there was no water in his lungs, then he was dead before he went into the water. So, how did he get into the water? Was their any evidence of bruising about the throat or was there bruised or lacerated hands indicating a defensive struggle? Basically, how did he die? What was the results of the toxicology report, assuming that they performed one?

There will never be any truth known about how Joe Grozelle died in Oct. 2003. From your coverage, it appears the NIS stonewalled puposely and, even more grievously, the Ontario Coroner did not care enough to ascertain cause of death, and took seven months to do so. It is classically, sickeningly Canadian. Those on the public purse care only about their precious 7 hour workday and all else be damned. I feel awful for his family and friends who are being told it was likely a suicide, even in the absence of anything convincing that would actually point to this as the cause.

Thank-you for continuing to questions the events surrounding the disappearance and death of Joe. I went to RMC with Joe and he was a friend of mine. It's been 5 years since Joe went missing, and we still have many more questions than answers. It's about time someone publicly questioned how the NIS investigation unfolded. As someone who was involved in the various investigations, I believe there was something wrong with the initial NIS investigation, including the way the investigators conducted themselves with witnesses and cadets. During the most recent board of inquiry early this summer, I was finally given the opportunity to express my concerns with both the NIS investigation and the stance RMC took after Joe was buried- that everything was over and done with. It wasn't. Although we may never know what happened to Joe, it is important to tell the story and not to stop questioning. So thank-you to The Fifth Estate, and especially to Minnie and Joe for continuing to question.

I am from Chatham Ontario and understand what the disappearance and death of Joe has done not only to the community but also to his family and friends. Tonights program has left me with more questions than ever before. I think it is unfortunate that not only his family but the public in general will never know the truth. I think that the military will never let the truth out. It seems that the people who are suppose to protect us are on fact keeping the truth from us and protecting the person or persons that have had something to do with the disappearance and death of Joe Grozelle

It just seems so strange that no cause of death is evident on Joe Grozelle's body. Is there any other cause of death that leaves no mark (internally or externally) other than perhaps hypothermia? Did Joe Grozelle's body reveal that it had been submerged for 3 weeks in the water? Did the girlfriend not hear anything during the night? It was very vague on the program about her involvement. Was she allowed to stay overnight in his room? Just too many unanswered questions that were not asked or perhaps aired on show.

I watched the program this evening and feel the pain the family must have been going through all this time. I hope an answer is found soon so there will be some peace for the family.

As someone who knows the Grozelle family, thank you Fifth Estate for airing this and raising more awareness over the sad circumstances that took place. I sincerely hope that something positive comes out of this. At the end of the segment, it was the first time that I have seen Ron truly let his emotions go and cry over this issue. I have seen him talk about Joey and not cry, but still be visibly upset, so I know that this must've been very hard for Ron and Minnie.

Again, thank you CBC and the Fifth Estate for shedding more light on this tragic event.

I am appalled at the way this was handled from the onset and am shocked at the way it continues to be handled. I can't imagine what his family must be going through and the frustration they must feel. I admire there determination and encourage them not to give up. I would love to help in any small way I can. If I knew how I could help, my time would be theirs. If there is somewhere I could write or be of any administrative assistance, I would be honoured to join the fight for answers. We can't allow Joe's life to be forgotten. If anyone knows where I can write or be of any assistance please let me know.

I watched the episode of October 15, 2008 and I am somewhat confused by the coroner's report stating there was no apparent cause of death. In this day and age with the technology we have at our disposal I find this appalling Did they ever check Joe's stomach contents to see when he last ate seeing his body was found some 3 weeks after he was reported missing?

Hopefully the Grozelle family will get the answers they truly deserve soon.

I find this case interesting considering in the US there have been dozens of cases where "The stories are the same all over the country--an athletic, intelligent, well-liked college male student goes missing and then is discovered drowned". This includes cases not too far away in the state of New York.

This show was not nearly as anti-military as I thought it would be. It was, however, still flawed.

Why was the coach considered an expert on the matter? He doesn't strike me as being particularly bright and, from anyone in the military's perspective, he acted inappropriately. He should not have been the first contact with the family after OCdt Grozelle's disappearance and he shouldn't be spouting off his mouth about how the military acted.

There shouldn't be anything ominous put into the fact that only one official from the Canadian Forces responded to the request for interviews. Since there seems to still be an investigation ongoing (a Board of Inquiry?), it would irresponsible for anyone to say anything that may prejudice the potential findings.

I feel for the Grozelles, but there has to be a point where they let go...