Hana Gartner: WHAT ABOUT THE COMPOUND IN TEXAS? TELL ME ABOUT THAT ONE.

Sam Brower: We got kind of watched at over a period of time being built and started off with not much there, in fact just a ranch house which they demolished and started building lots of other buildings.

Right now at this point in time it's totally self-sufficient. They have their own orchards, gardens, water wells, own power supply that they brought from Colorado City. They stockpiled lumber and materials and supplies and fuel, propane diesel so they're set.

Hana Gartner: HOW MANY PEOPLE DO YOU FIGURE ARE IN THERE?

Sam Brower: You know, an estimate? It varies depending on how much construction's going on there but I'd say 200 to 400 people.

Hana Gartner: FOUR HUNDRED PEOPLE? YOU HAVE BEEN TRACKING THIS MAN FOR TWO YEARS, WHAT DOES YOUR GUT TELL YOU ABOUT HIM? WHAT HAVE YOU LEARNED ABOUT WARREN JEFFS?

Sam Brower: Well, quite a bit I think. Probably more than most people on the outside of the religion. And I ... in doing so I try and keep a perspective. If I go back to my clients and the attorneys I work for with bad information it doesn't serve their purpose. And so I try and give the best information I can and look at all sides of an issue and bring back the best information, the most accurate information that's available so that I can find ...

Hana Gartner: SO CAN YOU GIVE ME A CHARACTER SKETCH OF THIS MAN – WHO IS HE?

Sam Brower: Well, you know, in a nutshell I believe that Warren Jeffs is a coward. He's a pedophile. He's somebody that has found a hook, a religious hook and been able to use a whole community as slaves. And I think he's out there but he needs to be caught. He needs to be dealt with in the criminal justice system.

.....

Sam Brower is a private investigator based in Cedar City, Utah. He was hired as an investigator by a firm representing a number of victims of Warren Jeffs in a civil law suit.

Brower has tracked Jeffs from Colorado City, Arizona to Mancos, Colorado to Eldorado, Texas – he's even traveled to Bountiful Canada. It was in Bountiful that he tried to serve court papers on Mac Blackmore and Jimmy Oler believing that they had been at one time harbouring the elusive Jeffs.

Sam Brower: Well I guess if you've been taught that from the time you were born I guess in that culture he is a man of infinite charisma. In my point of view, in most people's point of view outside of that culture and that religion, he's a ... quite the opposite. He has a whining monotone voice. He's ... I believe scared to death of anything outside of his comfort zone in that group. But that's his niche, that's the people he has.

Hana Gartner: SO HE'S NOT CHARISMATIC IN A SENSE THAT ... THAT I WOULD UNDERSTAND?

Sam Brower: That you and I would understand, no he's not. But he has found his niche. He's worked his way into a position where for instance TV is outlawed in that community. Nobody's supposed to watch TV. Nobody can listen to the radio, listen to music other than hymns and even then only selected hymns. They can't read the newspaper, read magazines, have organized social events. No flying the flag, no holidays, no Christmas, no ...

Hana Gartner: SOUNDS GRIM.

Sam Brower: It's really grim and you get that sense when you go there.

.....

Hana Gartner: WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS ... BECAUSE I ASKED BLACKMORE IF HE'S NOT WORRIED FOR HIS DAUGHTER, HIS OWN DAUGHTER IS BEHIND THOSE WALLS BARRICADED IN TEXAS IN THAT COMPOUND. HE CLAIMS HE'S NOT. SHOULD HE BE?

Sam Brower: He claims he's not worried about her ... his daughter? Well I don't believe it. I think in a certain sense as far as for her physical safety he may not worry about that. I think he worries about her mental stability and safety, being within those walls and that community.

I know from speaking with him that he would much rather see her some place out in the open and where he could talk to her and ... not just her but many other relatives. And be able to have a dialogue and be able to have dinner every once in a while.

Hana Gartner: BUT IN REALITY, HOW DANGEROUS A SITUATION IS IT?

Sam Brower: In Texas?

Hana Gartner: YES. THERE ARE GUARDS, THERE ARE ARMED GUARDS?

Sam Brower: I believe there are definitely guards and I believe that some are armed, yes. Especially the ones close to Warren would definitely be armed.

Hana Gartner: WOULD THEY ON ORDERS SHOOT TO KILL? WOULD THEY BE WILLING TO KILL FOR THE PROPHET?

Sam Brower: Absolutely. They would be ... in fact there's a whole community would be willing to kill for the prophet. Be willing to die for the prophet. I mean that's what separates this from most other cases. I mean this isn't some guy with ...that just robbed a bank and he took off in 1986 Camry somewhere. This is a guy that has ten thousand people that would be willing to give him a car, hide him, kill for him and die for him, give him their wives, give him their children and feel it an honour and a privilege.

.....

Hana Gartner: WHERE IS HE?

Sam Brower: He's in Texas. I believe that he's in Texas.

Hana Gartner: YOU KNOW, BLACKMORE SAID HE'D BE A FOOL IF HE DIDN'T HANG OUT IN CANADA, THAT HE WOULD BE SAFE THERE. YOU DON'T THINK ... YOU DON'T AGREE WITH THAT?

Sam Brower: Well I believe there's different places he could run to, there's Mancos, Colorado, there's Texas, there's Canada, there's Mexico. Certainly has contacts in all of those. And if I were going to run some place, if I fell back into a corner and I needed to go some place, if I were Warren I'd go to Canada.

I don't know that he's there yet. He feels safe and secure in Texas and he has everything he needs and his personality is such that – he's selfish, he's self-absorbed, he's used a lot of money and a lot of resources he put into Texas and I don't believe he's going to abandon that. He's too self-centred to do that.

Hana Gartner: IS HE SO NARCISSISTIC AND SELF-ABSORBED THAT HE WOULD MARTYR HIMSELF AND THOSE 400 PEOPLE?

Sam Brower: I believe that he would. I believe if push came to shove that he would rather die than go to face the criminal justice system.

Hana Gartner: SO YOU BELIEVE THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE SAYING, INVOKING THE NAME OF JONESTOWN AND WACO AND YOU THINK THERE WILL BE ... THERE COULD BE A CONFRONTATION …?

Sam Brower: Well, I ... you know I believe that the authorities hopefully have learned from Jonestown and Waco and those things and that they will use history as their guide and avoid that type of scenario and it would not be wise to disregard history and not be prepared for those types of things. I certainly believe that that could happen and steps should be taken so that it doesn't happen and it could be prevented.

.....

Hana Gartner: SO PROJECT - SMALL COMMUNITY DIVIDED, FAMILIES DIVIDED. WHAT WILL HAPPEN WHEN WARREN JEFFS ... WHEN AND IF HE IS APPREHENDED? PEOPLE WILL NOT LIVE HAPPILY FOREVER AFTER?

Sam Brower: Not right away, but you know I like to think that the time will come when things will be reintegrated and ...

Hana Gartner: THIS IS YOUR OPTIMISTIC SIDE AGAIN?

Sam Brower: It's my opinion... yeah, I do, I believe that over a period of time ... it may take years, but I believe that eventually that will happen. I think they want to now. You know, I know that the suffering that's taking place as far as families goes is self-inflicted suffering on the side of the FLDS, on Warren Jeff's part.

I mean they're commanded not to have any contact with anybody that's not part of their group. If any family members that have left or been kicked out. And they choose to do that, live that way. However, they do sneak out. They do have surreptitious contact with children and parents and things like that. So it's not ... he hasn't been able to stop it totally and I think once his sphere of influence has ended and some of the gear is gone, that some of those fences can be mended again.

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