Interview: The Hon. John Baird
The Hon. John Baird is the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities. He has held this portfolio since October 30, 2008.
Here is a transcript of an interview with The Honourable John Baird conducted by the fifth estate's Hana Gartner:
I KNOW THAT YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT SECURITY BREACHES AT TORONTO INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT. THIS IS SOMETHNING THAT WORRIES YOU.
Mm hm.. There’s a real concern I think that all Canadians have every time we fly. We count on it. That every reasonable effort is being taken to ensure that flights are safe and secure. And I think it’s my job as minister, to be a spokesman, to be a champion for Canadians on this issue.
I’ve done a lot of listening and every day I get up and come into this office to try to do more to make our airports and aviation, civil aviation, even safer.
SO HOW BAD IS SECURITY AT TORONTO INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT?
I think there are obviously some concerns that I have. It’s not unique to Toronto. It’s not unique frankly to Canada. There are significant challenges in the western world with respect to civil aviation. What my job is, is how can we take the reasonable steps to keep Canadians safe? We do so much on the second floor with respect to screening passengers, screening pilots, even screening me as the minister.
But on the first floor, with respect to employees, we don’t do nearly enough. There’s a Liberal senator, Colin Kenny who’s championing changes. I’ve become a good partner with him. I’ve spent many an hour with him on the road and here in Ottawa and we’ve come forward with some significant measures to begin to change that, and I think that’s what we’re doing.
WHAT’S YOUR BIGGEST CONCERN? WHAT’S YOUR BIGGEST WORRY? WHAT IS IT THAT YOU WANT TO CHANGE?
I think probably two things: one is that the workers at our airports, obviously when you have literally tens of thousands of people working at any work place, there’s always going to be a small percentage whose background would cause us concern. So we’ve done two big things: one is much greater screening on employees. We now can identify nine different databases to give people security clearances. So that’s a good first step.
The second step is, I think we need to do more random screening and then at some point in the future, full screening of everyone who goes onto those parts of an airport’s installation.
BUT YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAVE A HUGE ISSUE WHEN YOUR REPRESENTATIVES ON THE GROUND, THE SECURITY INSPECTORS ARE CALLING THE UNION SAYING THEY REALLY DON’T KNOW WHAT THEIR JOB IS ANY MORE, THAT THEY’RE NOT GETTING DIRECTION AND CLARITY FROM YOU, FROM YOUR OFFICE. THEY DON’T KNOW WHAT THEY’RE DOING. ARE THEY CLERICAL PEOPLE JUST CHECKING BOXES? OR ARE THEY ACTUALLY …?
I think their job has got to be to be on the ground enforcing the regulations as they’re set.
BUT WHEN THEIR MANAGERS, I’M SORRY TO INTERRUPT, WHEN THEIR MANAGERS SO, DON’T INVESTIGATE, DON’T FIND, WHEN YOU DO FIND SECURITY BREACHES. ISN’T THAT SAYING THAT YOUR OWN INSPECTORS AREN’T PERMITTED TO FULFILL YOUR –
I think we have to have greater clarity of exactly what the roles and responsibilities are. I think that’s evolved over time. It’s been more positive of late. I think we still have more to do in that regard. We’ve got an additional $ 350 million for CATSA in this year’s budget. That’s going to allow us to hire more screeners at the airport, use better technology and have better oversight over employees and those critical areas, in the apron of the airport.
I KEEP COMING BACK TO YOUR DELEGATES ON THE GROUND, THE TRANSPORT CANADA SECURITY INSPECTORS AND YOU KNOW THAT ON THE GROUND THEY’RE SEEN AS A BIT OF A JOKE AT THE AIRPORT. IF THEY’RE SEEN AS A JOKE, THAT IS A MOCKERY OF YOUR AUTHORITY?
Well, you brought to us three cases: I think we tried to address the specifics of all three – it’s hard to deal with generalizations that you’re making. What I can say is that we’ve got to ensure that there’s a bit of professional tension in the relationship between the airport authorities and between Transport Canada.
IT’S MORE OF A BUREAUCRATIC BATTLEGROUND, I THINK.
At the end of the day, Canadians don’t look to the airports, they don’t vote for the airport authorities; they vote for government. And it’s our job at Transport Canada to be – you know, the buck stops here, to do everything we reasonably can, to keep our airports safe. And what we see is that there’s constantly new challenges: whether it’s after 9/11, whether it’s with liquids and gels, whether it’s now with employees. We’ve taken great strides. Every day I come into this office to improve the system. We’ve made great strides in a pretty short period of time, and we’re committed to do more.
BUT I ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE MOVING TO THE SAME MANAGEMENT MODEL IN AIRPORT SECURITY AS YOU WERE IN AIRLINE SAFETY TO DOWNLOAD SOME OF THAT RESPONSIBILITY TO INDUSTRY.
Firstly, nothing has moved on the SMS system to date. It’s very much in its infancy. I have some real concerns when our own employees, with the safety regime. We’ve got a new director general, a new deputy minister. They’re going to be consulting extensively. Doing a lot of listening to our front line staff, engaging with the union. I think that if you’re going to change the system, you really have to get a collective buy-in if you’re going to want to make it work and I think there have been some reasonable concerns that have been expressed on the safety management system. It has to be there to supplement efforts, not to replace them and we’re committed to that.
THIS IS THE BIG QUESTION: SHOULD THE PEOPLE WHO ARE PRIMARILY CONCERNED ABOUT CREATING WEALTH AND CUTTING CORNERS, SHOULD THEY BE THE SAME PEOPLE WHO ARE WORRYING ABOUT THE SECURITY AND SAFETY?
I think we’ve got to have independent enforcement, independent prosecution when rules aren’t followed; at the same time, I think everyone involved whether they be the airlines, the airports, my department, we’ve all got to share a collective interest and take responsibility on prevention, so that these problems don’t take place. And I think that’s what it’s all about. We can’t move forward with any sort of major overhaul when it comes to security unless you have the support of your front line staff, and that’s exactly why we’re going to be doing a lot more listening.
BUT RIGHT NOW YOU DO HAVE A BUREAUCRATIC BATTLEGROUND. I KNOW SENATOR KENNY HAS BEEN TELLING YOU THE SAME THING: WHERE YOU HAVE VARIOUS LEVELS OF SECURITY NOT SHARING INTELLIGENCE, NOT SHARING INFORMATION, OBSTRUCTING EACH OTHER –
I think though, if you look, if you talk to Senator Kenny, we’ve become good partners on this. He’s a Liberal senator, a chair of a Liberal committee in the senate, which is, as I’ve said, we’re taking this issue very seriously. I’ve done a lot of listening. He’s taken me to the front lines and shown me where he sees the problems are. Since I’ve got involved with working with Senator Kenny, we’ve moved very aggressively on an information deal with the RCMP where we’re now able to use nine different databases to give security clearances where we couldn’t have in the past.
The right hand wasn’t talking to the left hand, and that’s unacceptable for Canadians. What we’ve also got to do though – I think the senator has spoken very strongly about this – is that we put all of our emphasis on the second floor: shaking down grandmothers for their toothpaste and shampoo, and not enough focus on the employees. And you know, there’s a small percentage of every group of people in the country that are going to cause us problems. And it’s no different from the traveling public as it is with those that are there. That’s where we have to do a better job.
We’ve got literally hundreds of millions of dollars of new resources to allow us to do that and every day we’ve got to make our system stronger and more accountable to the people we serve. Canadians, at the end of the day, they can talk to CATSA, they can talk to the airlines, they can talk their local airport authority, but at the end of the day it’s Transport Canada’s mandate to ensure that the aviation system is safe, to ensure that we take every reasonable measure to do that.
KENNY THINKS THAT SECURITY IS LOUSY. I THINK THAT’S A QUOTE.
I think – he’s raised the issues and put all of our eggs on the second floor, and don’t do enough on the first floor. And he’s got no argument from me. When I was first appointed, I spent a good hour with the senator and he said, come with me. Take me, I’ll take you out and I’ll show you firsthand some of the challenges that you and your department are facing. And I think I was the first minister in the last five that he asked to do this that did it.
And I’ve seen firsthand the concerns that the unionized employees have. I've seen firsthand the concerns that Transport Canada has, that the RCMP has had, and I think that we’ve got to shake things up. We’ve got hundreds of millions of dollars of new money, more boots on the ground in terms of CATSA to make sure that they have the job, the tools they need to their job. At the same time, it doesn’t work when the biggest focus is you know, shaking down your grandmother to make sure she doesn’t have her shampoo on the plane.
We’ve got to put more emphasis on the first floor and we’re beginning to use new technology and additional resources to do that.
BUT I KNOW ALSO TRANSPORT CANADA IS BACKING AWAY FROM A REGULATORY ROLE BECAUSE IT COSTS TOO MUCH MONEY, YOU DON’T HAVE THE FUNDS, BACKING AWAY FROM LIABILITY – NO?
I don’t think it’s a question of – like I said this year, 2009, 2010, we’ve got a $350 million in the security budget. So it’s not a question of lack of funds. How do you ensure that Transport Canada sets the rules and enforces them, and at the same time every actor, whether it’s the airline, the airport, the unions – we all take a collective role in prevention. And that’s what it’s gotta be about. If there’s any thought out there that when it comes to security that we’re going to be downloading responsibilities for guarding the hen house from the foxes, that’s not on. There’s gotta be an independent role for government to ensure that these are done in the public interest.
THEN WHY DO YOU HAVE INSPECTORS WHO KNOW THE RULE BOOK, WHO BELIEVE THEIR JOB IS WHAT YOUR MANDATE IS – YOU’RE MANDATED TO DO YOUR DUTY TO PROTECT THE CANADIAN PUBLIC, AND THEY FEEL THEY ARE PREVENTED FROM DOING THAT BECAUSE THEY’RE TREATED LIKE PYLONS THAT ARE JUST STOPPING TRAFFIC?
Well, I can’t deal with generalizations. Give me a specific example to address.
WELL, AND SPECIFICALLY ONE OF THOSE INCIDENTS – WHAT WAS TROUBLING WAS AN INSPECTOR DID AN INVESTIGATION AND IT WAS WHETHER THE AIRPORT AND THE AIRLINES SAID THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM, LET THE FLIGHT GO – THERE WAS A SECURITY SURVEILLANCE TAPE THAT WOULD HAVE CLARIFIED EVERYTHING.
There was one security breach you brought forward with respect to an individual taking a family member’s oversized luggage through security for them to take things out. It was thoroughly investigated. There was no prohibited items in the luggage, none of the luggage was let onboard the plane, and at the end of the day, there was no safety or security risk to civil aviation. Having said that, that’s against the rules. They’re not to do it and we’ve got to clamp down on those.
When you have literally millions of passengers flying every week, there’s going to be one or two problems every week. What our job is, is how do we learn from them and ensure that they don’t happen again? That was thoroughly investigated and listen, that’s unacceptable.
IN THE KIND OF SYSTEM THAT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT, CLEARLY YOU WANT PEOPLE TO COME FORWARD WITH THEIR SAFETY CONCERNS. IT’S THE ONLY WAY YOU KEEP THE SYSTEM HONEST. THERE IS A FEELING, NOT JUST FROM ONE PERSON BUT FROM MANY WITH WHOM I SPOKE, THAT YOU SILENCE CRITICS, YOU JUST SHUT THEM UP, AND IF THEY DO COME FORWARD THERE IS SERIOUS RETRIBUTION.
Well, look I’m the ministry at the Treasury Board who brought in whistle blower protection for public servants so they’d have the confidence to be able to come forward and to talk about their concerns. That’s important. We have a good process, a good independent adjudication of that. I think we want to do a lot more listening. We’ve got a new director general in this area, we’ve got a new deputy minister.
We’ve got a – I think we’ve got a much better job at listening to our employees. They’re the ones on the front lines on the ground, and we can’t be ignorant sitting on the 29th floor of an office building down here in downtown Ottawa. That’s why, at the invitation of Senator Kenny, I've gone to airports. We’ve gone unannounced and he’s shown me firsthand. We’ve met with individual airline employees themselves who have shared their concerns.
We’ve met with RCMP agents, officers who were on the ground. We’ve done a lot of listening and we’ve gone back and got more resources and are clamping down to have tighter regulation. I do think there has to be some tension in the system. It can’t be some professional tension rather than too cozy a relationship. I think that’s always a concern by those who are policing someone in this country.
CAN I ASK YOU SOMETHING? I KNOW THAT YOU KNOW THE NAME OF THE INSPECTOR WHOSE DOCUMENTS WE RECEIVED. YOU SHOULD ALSO KNOW THAT HE REFUSED TO COOPERATE [WITH THE FIFTH ESTATE], HE WAS AFRAID OF RETRIBUTION, HE DID NOT WANT TO BREAK THE LAW. HE SAID, HE WENT THROUGH ALL THE PROPER CHANNELS. HE FELT HE WASN’T LISTENED TO. SO WHAT HE’S PETRIFIED OF IS THAT YOU’RE GOING TO CRUCIFY HIM AND HE’S GOING TO LOSE HIS JOB BECAUSE HE – NOT ONLY THE DOCUMENTS FELL IN OUR HANDS, BUT HE SENT IT TO YOU.
I do know that we in Canada have one of the most progressive, whistle blower systems in the world, bar none. We have independent judges who can enforce the rights of employees or whistle blowers. Yeah, there’s a process. There is a reasonable expectation that whether it’s at the CBC or whether it’s at Transport Canada of how people can bring forward complaints. At the end of the day though, there are some pretty specific legal protections for whistle blowers because that’s tremendously important.
I represent a riding with a lot of public servants in it and we went through some real financial scandals and we have a specific process and specific protections for folks who come forward with concerns. At the same time, we’ve got to look at the substance of their concerns. We can’t, we can’t act on anecdotal stories. We’ve got to look at each case specifically. When someone comes forward with a complaint, you know there have been a number of them which have proven not to be the case, and there’s a number of them which have some pretty good, some pretty good judgments for us to consider.
SO HOW DO YOU ANSWER SENATOR KENNY’S CONCERN THAT NOBODY IS RUNNING SECURITY AT THE AIRPORT? THAT THE AIRPORT AND THE AIRLINES ARE DOING WHAT THEY WANT?
Well, Senator Kenny has introduced me to the people who are running security at the airport. He’s taken me to the front lines to show me the concerns that they have. He’s taken me to folks with the RCMP, taken me to people who work on the front lines. Taken me and introduced me to the people who do run the security there.
Obviously we had a very well-publicized visit. I wasn’t happy with what I saw and we’re taking specific measures to strengthen the system based on what we learnt on that trip, based on what we’ve learned from successive reports from the senate. I think what the Canadian people want to see is us putting aside politics. You’ve got a Conservative minister working with a Liberal senator. I think we’re making progress.
Is that done yet? No. We’ve still got work to do. The good news there is we’ve got a significant amount of new resources, some $350 million of new resources so we can hire more people, use technology better and then do more security, particularly in the most important parts of the airport: the apron and that archway.
BUT, WHAT I DON’T UNDERSTAND THEN, IF YOU SEE PROBLEMS – YOU ADMIT THERE ARE PROBLEMS, YOU WANT TO ADDRESS THEM. HOW IS IT THAT IN THE LAST YEAR NOT ONE OF YOUR TRANSPORT CANADA SECURITY INSPECTORS GAVE ANYBODY A FINE FOR BREACH OF SECURITY WHEN THERE HAVE BEEN MANY?
Well, I haven’t been here a full year. What I can say is this minister, when he arrived on the job, did a lot of listening. I’ve become a good student of a lot of the knowledge that Senator Kenny has. We’re moving on what we’ve learned, and I think at the end of the day we’re going to have a better, safer civil aviation system. More secure. At the end of the day though, we’ve got to be constantly monitoring. The threat is always changing.
And these challenges and problems aren’t unique to Canada. The United States is grappling with them. Western Europe is grappling with them. We’ve got to seek better international solutions. We’ve made great progress. We’ve turned down the ___ silos, and we’re now able to get good security clearances with the RCMP checking nine different databases. We’re moving forward on more screening of airport employees. I think that’s going to lead to a safer airport system, and we’ve got to do, we’ve got to each and every day wake up with a commitment to do a better job, to learn from our successes and to learn from our shortcomings, and I think we’re doing that.
Transport Canada probing reported security breach at Toronto airport (CBC.ca: April 2, 2009)
Transport Minister John Baird and Liberal Senator Colin Kenny spend half an hour in restricted areas on the tarmac of Toronto's Pearson Airport.
