Interview: Gen. Walter Natynczyk

General Walter Natynczyk's operational experience consists of 4 years on NATO duty in Germany; six months of UN peacekeeping duties in Cyprus (1984); a one-year-long mission with the United Nations in the Former Yugoslavia as Sector South-West Chief of Operations in Bosnia and Herzegovina (1994) with British forces, then as the Chief of Land Operations, UNPROFOR HQ in Zagreb, Croatia. He commanded the Royal Canadian Dragoons in domestic operations during the Winnipeg floods of 1997 as well as in the Ottawa region during the 1998 Ice Storm, and he served as the Canadian Contingent Commander in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1998. He became the third Canadian to serve as Deputy Commanding General, III Corps and Fort Hood, Texas and deployed with III Corps to Baghdad, Iraq in 2004 serving first as the Deputy Director of Strategy, Policy and Plans and subsequently as the Deputy Commanding General of the Multi-National Corps. Upon his return to Canada, he assumed command of the Land Force Doctrine and Training System. General Natynczyk was promoted to his present rank on July 2, 2008, when he assumed his duties as Chief of the Defence Staff.

Below is a transcript of Gillian Findlay's interview with Gen. Walter Natynczyk, Chief of Defence Staff on Oct. 21, 2009 in Ottawa:

…[THE] 'BE THE DIFFERENCE' INITIATIVE, WHAT WAS IT THAT CONVINCED YOU THAT THIS WAS NECESSARY?

Well right from day one, I put the welfare of our soldiers and sailors and airmen and women, and their families, at the top of my priority list. And this is an issue that’s been a real concern for quite some time.

You know, I know of soldiers who were serving with me, and in places like Bosnia, who’ve had events from Rwanda come back and haunt them. And again, a decade ago we did not have the wherewithal, we did not have the care programs to take care of these folks, or their families.

And so seeing now our operational tempo in Afghanistan, such that our folks are coming back and having real needs in terms of their mental health. I thought this is an opportunity here that we need to, as leadership, you know, get ahead of this, so that we set the right tone across the Canadian Forces to encourage people to get the help they need.

And it was only reinforced again this past year. I visited one of our joint personnel support units with Minister Mackay and we were in this facility in Edmonton. And we had met a bunch of soldiers and sailors and airmen who had posttraumatic stress disorder and then we met with the clinicians. And one of the questions I asked them was okay, how many of these people walked in and self identified that they had a problem? Keeping in mind that actually getting the assistance is the most important step. And the answer was zero. Not one of those folks, not one of those individuals who had a, had a mental health issue walked in on their own volition to get assistance. And it was either their families or their friends who said, you know, you got a real problem. You got to get in there. And that’s where, from those kinds of experiences, we have a role, the role to play, in ensuring that our people get the right healthcare.

WHAT DID THAT SAY TO YOU, THE FACT THAT NONE OF THEM HAD TAKEN THAT INITIATIVE ON THEIR OWN?

Well it reinforced in my mind the kind of people we are, who put the uniform on to serve and to go into dangerous places. And we have people who are adventurous at heart, who are risk takers, who walk into a recruiting centre and say they’re willing to sacrifice a lot to serve the country. And so normally they’re strong of heart, strong – strong of mind. And therefore for them to admit that they have a problem, for them to admit that they have a weakness is difficult.

Now it’s difficult even if it’s a physical disability, and how many of our people I’ve talked to, who might have sprained their ankle or their knee or an elbow or something, and even they have to be talked into going into the medical inspection room and having an assessment and being told to take a couple of days off and not go for the morning run. And so that’s with a physical disability. And therefore for a mental disability, it’s even harder.

A LOT OF THE PROGRAM REVOLVES AROUND TRYING TO GET RID OF THE STIGMA. WHERE DOES THAT STIGMA COME FROM AND WHY DOES IT EXIST?

I think again it goes to the kind of people who we are because every one believes that they are strong and they don’t want to be seen to be weak. And so there’s a stigma with regard to what one might perceive or how others might perceive that individual who has a mental disability.

BUT IS THERE ALSO A STIGMA THAT COMES FROM ABOVE, THAT YOU ARE WEAK IF YOU IDENTIFY IN THIS WAY?

Well yes, there is. That’s one of the reasons why we’ve gone out with this campaign, that I as the Chief of Defence Staff, I’m making a statement here that I want to ensure that people come on in and get the assistance because, because if they don’t, then it just prolongs and indeed worsens the situation.

But the other stigma is the self-stigma, where the person doesn’t want to admit the fact to anybody, including their family, that they have a problem, and they’ll put on a mask. And what I’m saying by going forward with the 'Be the Difference' campaign is for others to look at their battle buddies, look at those who they love and say you’ve got an issue, and help them to identify that problem and encourage them to seek medical assistance.

YOU’VE HAD A LONG CAREER IN THIS MILITARY. I ACCEPT WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT THE STIGMATIZATION THAT COMES FROM WITHIN, BUT IN TERMS OF THE WAY THE INSTITUTION HAS ALSO STIGMATIZED OVER THE YEARS, WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR EXPERIENCE? WHAT HAVE YOU SEEN THAT YOU THINK HAS TO CHANGE?

I think that there are – well, it’s culture. It is a culture within the Canadian Forces. And one of the challenges is that I as the leader of the Canadian Forces, the commander of the Canadian Forces, I will lay out my intent. And I know my general flag officers will say roger out, we’ll get on with this. But how do I ensure that that culture then permeates down into the ranks, so that in a rifle section aboard a ship, in a squadron on a crew, a special Forces team, that they’ll actually embrace this and say okay, the boss is, has got the right message here, you know, and the best thing that we can do is identify what the issue is and seek assistance. And that way, that individual who is our battle buddy will get the help.

AND HOW DO YOU ENSURE THAT IT TRICKLES DOWN? IS IT ENOUGH FOR THE GUY AT THE TOP TO SAY WE WANT TO DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY?

We’re doing it right now; we’re communicating. And I’ve put out some communication products throughout the Canadian Forces, brought in all the general flag officers. We’ve talked about this.

When I’m talking to commanding officers, when I’m aboard ship, I talk about this so that people realize that anyone can get this kind of mental problem, but also it doesn’t happen right away. You know, what’ll happen is soldiers will serve in Afghanistan, will be in a firefight. They’ll come home. They’ll feel fine. It’s months after. Sometimes it’s years after. And that’s one of the realities here.

We have seen people who have served valiantly in a place like Rwanda, but then an incident in Bosnia or Afghanistan will be the stimulus for their Rwandan experience to actually manifest itself in a posttraumatic stress disorder.

And that’s why we’ve got to address it across the board and recognize that it’s just not only the recent events, but it’s all these other events as well, and into the future. Even when our military mission ends in Afghanistan in 2011, we will continue to have members come forward with a mental health problem. As we are seeing veterans come back who left the military perhaps five or ten years ago and realize because this institution is accepting of them, come forward and ask for help.

I SUPPOSE THE MOST EXTREME EXPRESSION OF PTSD WOULD BE SUICIDE. AND YET THE MILITARY DOES NOT TRACK SUICIDES IN NON-SERVING MEMBERS. THEY DON’T GO AFTER VETERANS; THEY DON’T GO AFTER RESERVISTS. WHY DOES THE MILITARY NOT GO BACK AND TRACK THOSE SUICIDES?

Well we should. We need to. We need to track, but it’s so difficult because people will go off and, and whether they settle somewhere in Canada, away from bases or they’ll settle offshore, it is difficult to have a comprehensive data tracking program.

BUT YOU NEED TO?

But we need to. We need to, absolutely.

WHY?

Why do we need to?

YEAH.

We have a responsibility as an institution for those people who have served this country.

SO HOW ARE YOU GOING TO DO IT?

That is a challenge. That is a challenge that we will have to get on with.

BUT I MEAN, CAN YOU BE A LITTLE MORE CONCRETE? BECAUSE IT IS, IT IS A CHALLENGE AND IT’S BEEN KNOWN AS A CHALLENGE FOR SOME TIME NOW.

Well this country has 13 separate health organizations. You know, each province has their own health organization. We’re the 14th health organization and we’ll have to establish the tracking mechanisms with the other provinces in the country, so we know indeed what has occurred to our people who have served.

DO YOU ACCEPT THAT ONCE THAT TRACKING IS DONE, THAT ONE OF THE THINGS YOU MIGHT WELL DISCOVER IS THAT THERE IS A DIRECT LINK BETWEEN THAT BATTLE INDUCED PTSD, IF YOU WILL, AND PEOPLE ULTIMATELY WHO TAKE THEIR LIVES?

No, we know that. That often as a result of depression - I mean depression leads to in some cases suicide. And certainly if people do not get help after they have been in combat they will self-medicate in certain ways. And everyone is very, very different.

And some will come to the realization that they have a problem, others won’t. It goes back to this point again about early identification of the symptoms. And especially if someone doesn’t have family there, if they don’t have friends there who can help identify, it is a real problem.

SENATOR DALLAIRE, AS YOU I THINK PROBABLY WELL KNOW, IS VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE SUICIDES IN PARTICULAR. HE HAS SAID THAT HE DOESN’T THINK THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE, AND THE VETERANS AFFAIRS PEOPLE ARE DOING ENOUGH TO MAKE CLEAR THAT LINK OR ACCEPT THAT LINK. IT’S TOO EASY TO SAY WELL, IT WASN’T BECAUSE OF THE SERVICE IN AFGHANISTAN THAT JOE TOOK HIS OWN LIFE, IT WAS ALL THESE THINGS THAT WERE GOING ON WITH HIM. IS THAT A FAIR CRITICISM?

Oh, I think so. I think it is because certainly we can’t do enough, in my view. We can’t do enough. Everyone is so different, based upon how they handle stress and combat and so on. I think we have a responsibility to ensure that if someone has served, if someone has been in that kind of stressful environment, that we take care of them. And again, we have opened our doors when our veterans have come back and they understand the culture that is accepting in this department now, that we offer them that help.

SENATOR DALLAIRE BELIEVES THAT SUICIDE SHOULD BE INCLUDED IN CASUALTY STATISTICS THAT IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOU TAKE YOUR OWN LIFE, THAT SHOULD BE RECORDED AND HONOURED IN THE SAME WAY AS IF YOU HAD DIED ON THE BATTLEFIELD. WOULD YOU SUPPORT THAT?

Well you’re aware that the Government of Canada has just released the Sacrifice Medal, and indeed in cases where we believe someone has – someone died as a result of suicide, they will receive the Sacrifice Medal because they have been, they gave their lives. They were in, in a theatre and they were serving their country.

AND WILL THEIR NAMES GO ON THE HONOUR ROLL? WILL THEY BE, YOU KNOW, AMONG THOSE WHO DIED IN A BATTLE?

I don’t know the specifics at this point, but I know that they will receive the sacrifice medal.

SO THAT THE PRINCIPLE IS BEING ESTABLISHED YOU THINK.

The principle is there.

 

WE’VE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT CHANGING THE CULTURE, BUT – AND OBVIOUSLY THAT MESSAGE IS VERY IMPORTANT, BUT BEYOND THAT, I MEAN IN TERMS OF MONEY OR THE PROFESSIONALS YOU NEED, WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE TO ACCOMPLISHING WHAT YOU WANT TO DO?

I think we’ve been very fortunate because again, we have received tremendous support from government. We’ve come a long way just in the past three years. There is a challenge in this country with the number of trained medical professionals but at the same time, we’re a pretty good employer and so in that regard we’ve been fortunate. But it is difficult in certain areas of the country versus other areas of the country, especially when some of our bases are not near major cities. And so there are challenges there. So we’re working through all those pieces.

ARE YOU OFFERING INCENTIVES, FINANCIAL OR OTHERWISE, TO GET PEOPLE TO GO TO THOSE PLACES?

Yes. And we’re also seeing a change of attitudes in the country. A lot of people want to work with the military because they see that we actually have a pretty good and comprehensive program, but I think it goes back to your first point with regard to culture and how do we permeate the culture, that kind of warrior culture, where we want people to be warriors. We want that because they have to go in harm’s way and see at 40,000 feet in the air or in places like Afghanistan. We need that. We need them to be adventurous. We need them to be strong of heart. But at the same time we need them to be accepting the fact that we’re not always in armor suits and that when we do have a problem that they go in for assistance.

And it’s tremendous when you can see a soldier and he’ll come up to you and say Sir, I had a problem. I got the care early enough and now I’m back in the saddle again. I’m teaching, you know, and that is tremendous when you can see that.

WOULD YOU HAVE DONE IT AS A YOUNG SERVICEMAN, IF YOU THOUGHT THAT YOU WERE HAVING PROBLEMS?

Listen, I get criticized by my wife all the time for whether it be a knee injury, ankle injury, for not going to medical care. That’s the way we are and often being encouraged by others to go and seek medical help. That’s why this 'Be a Difference' Campaign is so important because people will respect other peoples attitudes and perceptions of them and then they’ll go in.
But it’s also important, our supportive military family, because it’s those military families who are the first people to see a change of routine. To be able to see that their loved one in uniform isn’t sleeping right, that loved one has a change in terms of their moods, mood swings, reacting to loud noises and so on. And so it’s the military families who see those kinds of things who will bring their loved one into the clinic for assistance.

AND I THINK THAT YOU WOULD PROBABLY RECOGNIZE THAT IN THE CASE OF PSTD, AT LEAST, MILITARY FAMILIES HAVEN’T ALWAYS RECEIVED THE KIND OF SUPPORT THAT YOU’RE SUGGESTING THAT THEY SHOULD?

You’re absolutely right. Absolutely right. And so I’ve made it my duty to again put the care and welfare of our men and women in uniform and of their families, very high on my priorities.

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT THIS COUNTRY IN A GENERATION OR SO, HAS SENT SO MANY YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN INTO HARM’S WAY. WE ARE GOING TO BE GETTING BACK A GROUP OF THOUSANDS WHO’VE BEEN EXPOSED TO THINGS THAT WE ALL NOW KNOW CAN LEAD TO SERIOUS PHYSICAL INJURY, BUT ALSO TO MENTAL INJURY. WHAT IS THE MAGNITUDE OF WHAT THIS COUNTRY IS GOING TO HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT IT’S GOING TO BE RECEIVING BACK AND HAVING TO COPE WITH?

I guess what I would say to your premise there, is it’s not only happening now. And again, from all those tens of thousands of Canadians who served in Korea, served in the Middle East, served in places like Nicosia airport. I mean, we all forget about the huge fight in Cyprus, 15th of July in 1974 to open up Nicosia airport. 1992 the fight, the peacekeeping, to open up Sarajevo airport, the fight in Croatia by Blue Beret, blue-helmeted peacekeepers at Medak Pocket [Croatia]. What our peacekeepers faced in Somalia, what our peacekeepers faced in Rwanda. We’re talking about tens of thousands of Canadians.

But changing this institution’s culture, such that all of those great men and women, those great Canadians who, who served then, plus these tens of thousands of Canadians who have served now over this eight years of Afghanistan know that if they have a problem, the Canadian Forces, on behalf of the Government of Canada, is accepting the fact that they have put so much on the line for the defense of this country. And I think it’s our duty to them, that we accept them and help them.

HAVE YOU EVER WONDERED ABOUT YOURSELF, WHETHER YOU HAVE SUFFERED AT SOME POINT?

Well I’ll just give you an anecdote. I mean I spent three years on operations. I did Cyprus, a year and a half of Bosnia and a year in Iraq. And I came home from Iraq and, and there was a thunderstorm. And I threw my wife out of the bed and I jumped out of the bed and said get under the bed, take cover.

Now, this is why families are important because she stood up and said what are you doing? Get back in bed. It’s only a thunderstorm. Families are so important.

AND YOU DID AND YOU WERE FINE AND THIS WAS AN INCIDENT, IT WAS NOTHING.

Absolutely.

YEAH.

But the fact is that all those folks are in harm’s way. They have the demon in their mind. It’s a question of do we recognize it soon enough and do we help them deal with it? We help them deal with the demon so they can live a normal life and they can make a full recovery.